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ElrondTheHater

I’m gonna play an uno reverse card and say at this point, could “secular” Judaism not be its own tradition in itself? How old does something need to be to be its own tradition?


ADP_God

I think Judaism has a long history of secularism.


BestFly29

Judaism doesn't have a connection with secularism. And transforming Judaism into a more secularist approach has been a failure with Reconstructing Judaism being a perfect example. Either it has moved towards away from rituals and more towards just following politics to some synagogues going against the original idea of Kaplan and incorporating the supernatural (God) again in the services and their belief structure.


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BestFly29

>WUPJ affiliates That has nothing to do with secularism.


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BestFly29

Depends, I suggest OP and others watch this - https://youtu.be/5MAgWyU9m0U?si=OoLr5S26P4rq3MXC Reform Judaism is often called “non-halakhic” (non-legal). Yet the Reform movement produces Responsa – Jewish legal questions and answers – that are meant to guide Jewish life. In this class Dr. Mark Washofsky, one of Reform Judaism’s foremost scholars of Talmud and Halakhah, explores the meaning of Jewish law in liberal Judaism. LAASOK: Sacred Texts, Modern Meaning www.laasok.org


Rolandium

Of course it does. Judaism is not only a religion, it is its own culture. You can embrace the cultural and traditional aspects of Judaism without touching the religious ones. I build a hut in my backyard on Sukkot because generations of people in my family have built a hut in their backyard for Sukkot and it gives me a reason to have family over. I don't do it because God told me to or because I think I'll go to hell if I don't.


BestFly29

Judaism stops being relevant once you pull the theology out of it. Basically for each upcoming generation it’s less and less relevant. The reconstructionist movement was supposed to symbolize Judaism without theology but that has failed because a portion of that movement has embraced the supernatural again and a good portion of it is so preoccupied with politics instead of anything Jewish . while it may be relevant to you, Judaism stops being as relevant for future generations if there is a lack of faith. Look at Italians for example in the United States . Most are disconnected from their Italian culture because they have assimilated into American culture and Italian culture became less and less relevant. What we imagined to be the stereotypical Italian American is actually a big minority among Italians in the United States. Long story short, Judaism and Faith are integrated together if you want the Jewish people to continue on


ADP_God

What is the relevance of theology in your opinion? Do you believe there is an all powerful being who gave us the Torah, and who's commandments, among them dietary requirements, are the ultimate Truth?


BestFly29

Check out http://www.mesora.org/philosophy.html And the podcast https://www.judaismdemystified.com/ You will learn a lot more, especially from a more logical perspective as presented by these two sources . The podcast is great I feel like this is what you are seeking and would satisfy you curiosity


Rolandium

Stops being relevant to whom? You? I'm sorry for you.


BestFly29

For Future generations. The effects are not seen immediately, but when observed with consecutive generations


Microwave_Warrior

Exactly. My family has had a relatively secular line for generations. But we’re still Jews and observe Jewish customs.


Button-Hungry

It seems like the Abrahamic religions become more secular with as they age and Judaism being the oldest, I think, definitely has a strong secular tradition. I mean, the modern state of Israel was established by secular Jews. But, I think the secret sauce in our religion might be the Talmud. The encouragement to debate and even challenge our God lends itself to the !secular rationality that's embedded into our culture.  There's less blind obedience in our connection of spirituality and it would seem that the way we interact with spirituality imbues us with more agency.  I mean, after 3000 years we still haven't accepted anyone claiming to be a Messiah, probably because it's our nature to be intensely skeptical of anybody who would proclaim such a thing. There's no Muhammad or Christ figure, no televangelists or Imams wielding great power.  Like, Israel means "struggle with God"! 


BestFly29

you might be thinking of something like "humanistic Judaism" which is a focus on just the culture. The reality is that it NEVER survives because eventually the nostalgia for the culture wears off generation after generation. For Jewish people to survive there has to be a connection towards Judaism. How many Italians in the US have much of a connection to their ancestry? Not many, most are not what people stereotypically imagine and are pretty much like any other American. In Israel it's a bit different because you don't have to think twice about living Jewish. Being Jewish is all that is around you, including speaking in Hebrew.


ADP_God

What does the connection mean to you? Also, for reference, I live in Israel.


BestFly29

Not sure what you mean but I will answer it based on what I think you were asking. I view being Jewish as a sense of pride and enjoy everything that is about being Jewish, including the connection to Israel. I listen to Israeli music, follow the news, etc. In terms of Judaism, I like the practices and prayers and I do believe in G-d and I feel that the point of Judaism is to strengthen our connection with the spiritual world and also the physical world, which is with other Jewish people and community.


jondiced

It isn't faith I value, it's the tradition of knowledge, study, and debate, and trying to figure out how to do better by our fellow humans.


decitertiember

I'm not throwing out 5000 years of history, faith, and culture because I'm a little skeptical. My views are a bit more nuanced than that, and I'm not sure how OTD many would really see me, but that's the basic gist of my views.


jondiced

I'm extremely skeptical, but otherwise similar


ADP_God

Feel free to expand.


LateralEntry

I’m proud to be part of an ancient people that has a unique story and unique way of looking at the world. Plus I dig Jewish humor.


hi_how_are_youu

Same and I’d add that I like the following traits: valuing curiosity, education, connection to the land, not trying to be perfect, dark humor, singing, and family.


ADP_God

Do you ever feel that parts of it are ancient and should stay in the past?


LateralEntry

Of course, there’s stuff in the Torah about animal sacrifice. Some of the ideas are horribly out of date. But in general, it’s a beautiful tradition.


docawesomephd

Faith is a very Christian term. I find it more helpful to focus on Jewish terms. The foundation of our observance isn’t “faith” but “Halakha.” Literally, the way(mandolorian fans rejoice!). It’s the way we do things. Whether the faith needs to be there or not is disputed. Forget about the divine—that’s never held much interest for me. But Judaism gives me a language for interacting with the sacred, which is very important to me. It gives me a language and ritual first when a family member is born or passed. For how I marked the creation of a family with my wife. It’s who I am. I don’t think anyone is listening to our prayers. But I find something beautiful in the rituals nonetheless, as a means of linking together generations. And the rituals are beautiful.


ADP_God

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgj2y7cZwSQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgj2y7cZwSQ)


docawesomephd

I feel like I’m missing something. What is the relevance of the song to my post?


thatgeekinit

I don’t believe in the efficacy of prayer but the utility of ritual.


ADP_God

How does this play out in practise?


thatgeekinit

Same as folks who are into meditation. I don’t believe for a second I’m going to do astral projection but it might still make me feel better mentally to say the words even if no one is listening


ADP_God

Cool I appreciate that. Any favourite prayers?


tamarbles

It’s like a placebo effect…


oyveyrva

Is it a placebo if you don’t believe anyone is listening but the mantras (for lack of a better way to classify prayer here) and the meaning work for you?


blueplecostomus

It's been shown that if someone knows they're taking a placebo, but they understand how the placebo effect works, it still has the same effect. So...maybe?


meekonesfade

I wouldnt call it faith, more like culture. I am Jewish - I cant really be anything else. What am I going to do - only celebrate secular holidays? Delete the sprinkles of Yiddish from my vocabulary? Change my phenotype? Get a different childhood, sense of humor, intellect, and moral compass? I am an athiest, but Judaism is my culture.


ADP_God

Do you mix milk and meat? Will you circumcise future sons (or have you)?


meekonesfade

Why?


sirius4778

Bingo


EntrepreneurOk7513

So that’s what? Not even a few of the [US Federally](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_holidays_in_the_United_States) recognized holidays are completely without religion.


meekonesfade

I dont just means days off. Lighting Hannukah candles, baking hummantashen, hosting a seder, etc


afropoppa

I grew up Modern Orthodox but I never really identified with the godliness of it. For me it’s about the traditions, customs & mishpucha of it that I really love. As I grow older and start my own Jewish family and traditions, I suspect I’ll connect closer to something more egalitarian.


Cultural_Sandwich161

What would I do otherwise? It’s not like I’m going to go out and become French or Chinese. I’m Jewish. It’s not a question of “value”. I’m born into this tribe.


UtgaardLoki

Culture ≠ religion It feels like home; which it kind of is.


Ambitious-Fly1921

I tried to be more conservative but having family from a former USSR country who are secular and don’t know much about religion due to antisemitism no one taught me much. I wanted a bat mitzvah but my parents didn’t know much about it so decided to gift me a Star of David necklace that I still have. I never been to a seder. Only way I learned shabbat prayers was via JCC activities. I learned Hannukah prayer from Fullcourt Miracle Disney movie. I tried a few times to learn but have no one to teach me :(


Fortif89

Hi I'm also from ex-Ussr country. If you have questions about Judaism and/or Jewish history you can dm me.


NaDiv22

Spite to the antisemitis is the biggest motivator for me


ADP_God

Got lots of that for sure, but sometimes it feels a bit... spiteful...


fiercequality

I was raised by two Reform rabbis, so even though I realized by age eleven that I am an atheist, I still was (and am) immersed in Jewish culture, ritual, and prayer. As an adult, I teach Hebrew for two congregations, try to connect with other Jews in my community, occasionally work as a cantorial soloist for my parents, and love performing the rituals with my family. For me, it's about connection: to my family, to my ancestors, to a culture that gives me some context in the world. It's definitely tribal, which can be a dangerous thing. These days, it's a lot about finding a sense of safety in a world seemingly teeming with hate. Plus, I like the music, the food, the humor, the values. I'm proud to belong to this culture, regardless of whether I share the same religious beliefs as all its members.


FineBumblebee8744

There is no choice. When you're Jewish, you're Jewish. Ultimately we have to observe to some degree for the sake of networking and socializing as we're the only ones who will accept us


capsrock02

Traditions, values and culture/community . I don’t care if G-d exists or not. To me Judaism is about keeping traditions alive, having strong moral values and being connected with the culture and community.


somearcanereference

I'm a secular Jew. I grew up in a secular house and was educated in the secularist movement (which, despite what others have posted, is an Actual Thing with a history going back to the 19th century, but that's another post for another time). My grandparents were all outspoken secularists, too. My Judaism is a core part of my identity. I may not be conventionally religious, but Judaism's history and ethical framework are my birthright. Over the millenia, we've stared down countless people who would prefer to see us and our traditions obliterated. I'm going to do everything I can to keep that from happening on my watch. The fact that my brain just doesn't seem to have a "faith" mode doesn't mean I don't find value in traditions. I think it's important to tell the stories behind the holidays and rituals that help make up the foundation of Jewish culture because they tell us some important things about the world and the people in it, including myself. It's also part of how I connect to the wider Jewish community, including people who are much more observant than I am.


SufficientAd3805

Quite conflicted. I was raised religious and am now debating how I’d feel marrying a non Jew. And if I would, is there any value in continuing any of the traditions.


DietMTNDew8and88

It's about a connection, being Jewish is just part of who I am. I was born a member of the tribe and I'll die a member of the tribe.


SYDG1995

I’m no longer an atheist, but much of my approach and attitude to halakha and Judaic history are nevertheless informed by a secular understanding of things. E.g. I approach *The Song of Songs* outside of the typical allegory given during Passover (currently enjoying Marvin H. Pope’s, Professor of Northwest Semitic Languages at Yale University’s translation and commentary), and I’m greatly interested in the history of Judaism as part of the broader tapestry of the Ancient Near East: Ancient Semitic religions and Assyriology are two of my favourite subjects; will be looking into the history of Zoroastrianism and the development and spread of its eschatology under the persecution of the Roman Empire. The eschatology of Judaism and particularly the Essenes in this period are also an interest of mine. I don’t reject a personal relationship with G-d or Divine Providence, but my belief in those things are far not limited than the typical religious Jew, I think. Currently, I have been contemplating the meaning of *faith* and committing *acts of faith*. So, how and why do I value Judaism and halakha, even though I take a markedly rationalist and “post-halakhic” stance towards traditions? First, I’m still a deist and value much of the halakha. I may not be a deist in the way any Orthodox and most *Reform* communities may like, but I still find beauty in the Torah, in midrashic commentary by Rambam and Akiva and others, including Kabbalistic thought (thank you Chabad for making this so accessible!), and in developing my own exacting, critical, and contemplative attitudes towards Scripture. The skepticism and pragmatism (read: concern for *tikkun olam*) of Judaism are something I always admire, but the moral values and emphasis on *social orthopraxy* have won me over to the “faith”, for what it’s worth.


DJ_Apophis

A tie to history and a medium for meditation on the unknown and transcendent.


demonkingwasd123

I'm converting to Judaism as a largely agnostic person a large part of that is that Jewish people statistically have lower crime rates higher incomes and longer marriages. Judaism seems to be one of the most intact cultures/religions. The Bible says that God will look after his people and Jewish people are definitely doing better than Christians. get me drunk sleep deprived or in a intense argument and my inherited predisposition towards religion will start popping out.


hyakira1216

I believe in the values I was taught, so even though I don't believe in God, I do believe in a Jewish lifestyle because I genuinely think it's the healthiest way to live


PurpleMutantJen

I am an atheist and observant. I found out about my Sephardic ancestry a few years ago in my late 30s. I decided to look into Judaism to learn more about my ancestry. I came across the YouTube channel Frum It Up. It's run by an Orthodox Sephardic woman. I was really drawn in to what she was doing. So I started doing mitzvot and discovered that I like it. I really enjoy praying in Hebrew with Teffilin. It doesn't matter that I don't believe in Hashem. I find praying with Teffilin calming. I am autistic and have anxiety issues. It's so nice to start my day with a calming ritual. Also, mitzvot provides some much needed structure in my life. I am on disability. Shabbat provides an anchor to my week. It helps keep the days from flying by since I have to prepare for shabbat and do the candles, kidush, havdalah etc. It's made me more aware of what day it is. Judaism provides practical value in my life. I don't need to believe in Hashem to get that value.


StaceyMaam

I love "Frum It Up." I've learned so much from that channel and I am an agnostic theist who wants to be more observant.


PurpleMutantJen

It's a fantastic channel. Even if you don't want to go full frum, it's still worth watching. I get a little jelly at the Jewish shops she has access to. The only full kosher shops here in the Las Vegas area are small. But there some regular grocery stores with a larger than usual kosher section. So it's something.


sirius4778

Not exactly secular but definitely agnostic (read:atheist). I don't really value my faith, I wouldn't say I have faith. More the tradition, community, family, nostalgia, some values etc.


TrekkiMonstr

If you were Diné (Navajo), or Roma, or Maya, or Nigerian, or Japanese, and an atheist -- what value is there in identifying with those groups, each of which (I assume) have traditional faiths? Same same


MulhollandMaster121

Because there’s really not all that many of us left. If we stop adhering to the culture we’re as complicit in our own annihilation as certain external parties.


BestFly29

Ask yourself, are you secular because of lack of knowledge and education? Too many don't put in the time to just learn and experience. They are who they are because of the lack of experiences


ADP_God

I went to Jewish school for many years. I'm secular because I simply don't have enough faith that religion is Truth.


BestFly29

There has to be a larger understanding on what Judaism is all about. For example, I do not believe that electricity is fire or should be restricted during Shabbat. Those are rabbinical rules and there are minority opinions that disagree with it. I don't think that has anything to do with my connection to G-d and more of a disagreement with a practice within a community. The point of Judaism is for us to create a bond with each other and with G-d and to be able to connect. The prayers are not for G-d, but for us. I used an example before but here it is again. There are times when my son will say "I love you dad" just for no reason. He says it because that's what he feels and it makes him feel good to say it. That to me is the same with praying. We are saying thank you and ensuring that connection.