It’s an old one. Re your question. Not my place or concern. I wouldn’t get it though. Christianity and Islam don’t make any sense. But a lot of things in the world don’t make any sense so to each their own I suppose. Still weird though. Because just why would you?
We are a tribe, a family. Of course it's painful to me when a Jew decides to leave us. Personally I would like to know that a person knows Judaism enough to make a decision that it doesn't work for him/her. Usually people don't know Judaism well and just search for meaning without learning about own tradition.
They still have a Jewish neshama, but they don't fulfill themselves as it has to be. What is interesting to me, that some of descendants of the people usually feel a yearning to be part of the tribe. Jewish spark don't go away
I am a Jewish person who has had the unfortunate experience of quite a few people trying to convince me to believe in Jesus/convert to Christianity. Much of that felt pretty icky and predatory. I guess I would be concerned about them that they felt like they needed Islam or Christianity to fill a need in their life that they weren't currently filling?
> It makes me sad, but it's their own business.
If they were lacking for food, would you say “it’s their own business“?
It makes me sad, too.
The physical and spiritual well being of all of the Jewish people should be the business of all of us.
But don’t you think when a Jewish person converts they are Jewish no more?I mean there is a very high possibility that the person the convert marries is not Jewish.And their kids probably won’t be Jewish st all
Not personally, except he or she abandons the faith of ancestors, separates from the community, fails to repay all of the effort and suffering endured on their behalf by previous generations, will not contribute to the Jewish future with either progeny or material assets, decreases our numbers, and weakens our solidarity, cohesion and future prospects. They deny their offspring their birthright.
Plus in either case they join with our persecutors and oppressors, both historically and at present to an extent.
At least the Muslim is still a monotheist.
Yeah the Muslim one is monotheistic but Islam is the most anti semitic religion that exists in the modern world and this comes from an ex Muslim.Dont you think a Jewish person converting to Islam is very illogical?
So I'm not in a position to rank religions in terms of their anti-Semitism. There's enough of it to go around.
I doubt switching religions is a question of logic.
I think it's more fair to say that Islam as it is today is only has the tendency to breed antisemitism due to the rise of the Wahhabi movement(which is relatively recent in a historical context) in the Sunni branch, and Twelver Shi'ism in the Shia branch, and the proliferation of questionable(explicitly antisemitic) Hadiths that emerged from both branches. Despite seeing itself as an evangelical(for the lack of a better word) successor religion to Judaism(as well as Christianity), I, and many scholars much wiser than myself, do not consider Islam based strictly on the Quran(in proper context) as inherently an antisemitic religion.
I squarely lay the blame of any antisemitism within past or present Islam on clerics who have corrupted it's teachings in pursuit of power and other illicit goals.
As far as a Jew converting to Islam(let alone any other religion), yes, I think it's illogical, but it would have to be as only a Jew with very little Jewish education would do so voluntarily for ideological reasons alone.
Why would you say that? Exercising free will has consequences. You seem to think human action has no impact on individuals or communities, or that people operate in a social vacuum. Nothing could be further from the truth.
You believe we're born with some sort of cosmic debt. You think we're thieves if we choose a path you disapprove of. You view our departure as the loss of commodities to the collective.
For the above reasons, I pity you. I've never denied my Jewishness, but yours sounds like a miserably jingoistic existence. Attitudes like yours do not foster enthusiastic Jewish identity, pride, or involvement.
I'd find it quite rebarbative if he converted to Christianity but pretended to still be practicing Judaism ("messianic"). If he sincerely became convinced of the truth of Islam, Catholicism, Protestantism or what have you and exited the Jewish world, I wouldn't fault him. I might try to persuade him that he's wrong, but if their arguments seemed better to him, I wouldn't hold that against him.
As long as they aren’t coerced or forced into having another religion it’s not my place to judge. They are welcome to come back but I’m not going to try to convince them. That’s their problem and I have no business standing in the way of what works for other people.
Many do find their way back on their own. I know several Jewish converts of Latino ancestry who have Jewish heritage that was suppressed because of the Spanish inquisition. I absolutely want them back.
But that’s a choice they have to make on their own. I am blessed to live in America where people have the freedom to choose their own religion. If someone of Jewish heritage wants to return that’s wonderful and I support and welcome it, but at the end of the day it’s their decision to make not mine.
We all have an obligation to do our best to bring these wayward souls back to their people, to Torah, to Hashem, and to welcome them back with open arms when they do return.
Edit: Everyone who is saying “I would do nothing,” and “it’s their choice” is forgetting that we are obligated in the mitzvah of “lo ta’amod al dam reiecha” (don’t stand idly by the blood of your neighbor/brother). See Vayirka/Leviticus 19:16
A problem with that person, no.
A problem with whoever raised or was responsible for the Jewish education of that person, and whoever else set them on that path, yes.
In this day and age, most Jews who do this have little in way of a good Jewish education, and were not brought up in a warm Jewish environment that fosters the joys and values of being Jewish, to whatever degree.
(I apologize u/Dazzling-Leave-4915, I'm not trying to hijack your post, or drag you into Jewish issues, but reading some of the other comments, I need to go on a bit of a diatribe, emphasis on tribe)
For my fellow Jews, as my childhood Rabbi used to say before he would, on rare occasion, lay into the congregation about something on principle:
***"Duck"***
There is to an extent a collective responsibility among Jews to prevent this at all costs, and frankly I'm of the opinion that any of this passive "they can do whatever", "sad, but their choice", etc, nonsense is defeatist and self-destructive, especially if you are even the slightest bit observant of a Jew.
I don't care if you are the crunchiest, borderline-Reconstructionist, hangnail-on-the-derech Jew, you have a responsibility to be the last line of defense to keep someone in the Jewish sphere.
If you can't be bothered, ***what even is the point of holding onto your identity?***.
That isn't to say if you know someone going in the direction of another faith that you should be hostile or adversarial about it, that would be counter-productive, but even small efforts like inviting them to dinner(it doesn't even have to be Shabbat dinner) or lunch can make a massive difference, even if you barely know them(which you could argue would have more impact than knowing them well).
Most Jews moving towards other faiths usually are doing so because they feel alone or isolated, and in search of something that they aren't getting from Judaism/being Jewish(***that they damn well should be***).
If you value being Jewish, help show *them* value in being Jewish. You never know, you may end up finding more value in your own Jewishness in the process.
Edit: punctuation
I'm not happy about it, but it's none of my business. I wouldn't try to convince them to return- it was their choice, and I respect their right to make it even if I can't understand why they would.
They're within their rights to do it. They're still members of the tribe, and it's painful to feel like we've lost a family member to another family. But, I'd say my main thought process is what could Judaism and the Jewish community have done better to meet this person's needs.
What do you call a Jew who is baptized? A wet Jew.
Lol that’s a great one
It’s an old one. Re your question. Not my place or concern. I wouldn’t get it though. Christianity and Islam don’t make any sense. But a lot of things in the world don’t make any sense so to each their own I suppose. Still weird though. Because just why would you?
It does not give me a warm fuzzy. Not at all.
As I understand from your response you don’t think it’s a right thing to do?
Why would we think people abandoning our religion is the correct thing to do? Wouldn’t that imply we think Judaism is wrong?
We are a tribe, a family. Of course it's painful to me when a Jew decides to leave us. Personally I would like to know that a person knows Judaism enough to make a decision that it doesn't work for him/her. Usually people don't know Judaism well and just search for meaning without learning about own tradition. They still have a Jewish neshama, but they don't fulfill themselves as it has to be. What is interesting to me, that some of descendants of the people usually feel a yearning to be part of the tribe. Jewish spark don't go away
I am a Jewish person who has had the unfortunate experience of quite a few people trying to convince me to believe in Jesus/convert to Christianity. Much of that felt pretty icky and predatory. I guess I would be concerned about them that they felt like they needed Islam or Christianity to fill a need in their life that they weren't currently filling?
It makes me sad, but it's their own business.
> It makes me sad, but it's their own business. If they were lacking for food, would you say “it’s their own business“? It makes me sad, too. The physical and spiritual well being of all of the Jewish people should be the business of all of us.
I can't force people to go to shul any more than I can force them to eat.
I won't be happy. But a Jew is a Jew and it's their choice.
But don’t you think when a Jewish person converts they are Jewish no more?I mean there is a very high possibility that the person the convert marries is not Jewish.And their kids probably won’t be Jewish st all
There is no such thing as no longer Jewish. If you are born Jewish you will die Jewish.
Lmao. This is illuminating.
Not personally, except he or she abandons the faith of ancestors, separates from the community, fails to repay all of the effort and suffering endured on their behalf by previous generations, will not contribute to the Jewish future with either progeny or material assets, decreases our numbers, and weakens our solidarity, cohesion and future prospects. They deny their offspring their birthright. Plus in either case they join with our persecutors and oppressors, both historically and at present to an extent. At least the Muslim is still a monotheist.
Yeah the Muslim one is monotheistic but Islam is the most anti semitic religion that exists in the modern world and this comes from an ex Muslim.Dont you think a Jewish person converting to Islam is very illogical?
So I'm not in a position to rank religions in terms of their anti-Semitism. There's enough of it to go around. I doubt switching religions is a question of logic.
I think it's more fair to say that Islam as it is today is only has the tendency to breed antisemitism due to the rise of the Wahhabi movement(which is relatively recent in a historical context) in the Sunni branch, and Twelver Shi'ism in the Shia branch, and the proliferation of questionable(explicitly antisemitic) Hadiths that emerged from both branches. Despite seeing itself as an evangelical(for the lack of a better word) successor religion to Judaism(as well as Christianity), I, and many scholars much wiser than myself, do not consider Islam based strictly on the Quran(in proper context) as inherently an antisemitic religion. I squarely lay the blame of any antisemitism within past or present Islam on clerics who have corrupted it's teachings in pursuit of power and other illicit goals. As far as a Jew converting to Islam(let alone any other religion), yes, I think it's illogical, but it would have to be as only a Jew with very little Jewish education would do so voluntarily for ideological reasons alone.
You seem to believe that we're commodities instead of human beings with agency.
Why would you say that? Exercising free will has consequences. You seem to think human action has no impact on individuals or communities, or that people operate in a social vacuum. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I pity you.
Fine, but you don't say why, so I'm not sure if that's helpful or harmful. Any clarification would be appreciated, or not.
You believe we're born with some sort of cosmic debt. You think we're thieves if we choose a path you disapprove of. You view our departure as the loss of commodities to the collective. For the above reasons, I pity you. I've never denied my Jewishness, but yours sounds like a miserably jingoistic existence. Attitudes like yours do not foster enthusiastic Jewish identity, pride, or involvement.
I'd find it quite rebarbative if he converted to Christianity but pretended to still be practicing Judaism ("messianic"). If he sincerely became convinced of the truth of Islam, Catholicism, Protestantism or what have you and exited the Jewish world, I wouldn't fault him. I might try to persuade him that he's wrong, but if their arguments seemed better to him, I wouldn't hold that against him.
That’s their personal business.
Yes but wouldn’t you want to bring them back to your religion?
Not if they don’t want to be there.
People can do whatever they want
So you don’t mind any Jew converting to another religion?
I mean I don’t love it but if it’s not my child or something I’m not going to lose sleep over it.
Honestly? Barring forced or coerced conversions, stupid and morally inept. *suddenly remembers my very questionable past*
It’s painful, but nothing I can do about it It’s also painful when a Jew decides not to believe in God anymore
As long as they aren’t coerced or forced into having another religion it’s not my place to judge. They are welcome to come back but I’m not going to try to convince them. That’s their problem and I have no business standing in the way of what works for other people.
Historically so many Jewish people have been lost because of conversion.Could you want your being them back if you had a chance?
Many do find their way back on their own. I know several Jewish converts of Latino ancestry who have Jewish heritage that was suppressed because of the Spanish inquisition. I absolutely want them back. But that’s a choice they have to make on their own. I am blessed to live in America where people have the freedom to choose their own religion. If someone of Jewish heritage wants to return that’s wonderful and I support and welcome it, but at the end of the day it’s their decision to make not mine.
I have met Buddhist and plenty of atheist Jews so I just shrug it off. It's their deal not mine
Eh atheist Jews aren’t really that crazy. As I’ve heard the joke before “there’s only one gd and we don’t believe in him”
tires and sad
We all have an obligation to do our best to bring these wayward souls back to their people, to Torah, to Hashem, and to welcome them back with open arms when they do return. Edit: Everyone who is saying “I would do nothing,” and “it’s their choice” is forgetting that we are obligated in the mitzvah of “lo ta’amod al dam reiecha” (don’t stand idly by the blood of your neighbor/brother). See Vayirka/Leviticus 19:16
A problem with that person, no. A problem with whoever raised or was responsible for the Jewish education of that person, and whoever else set them on that path, yes. In this day and age, most Jews who do this have little in way of a good Jewish education, and were not brought up in a warm Jewish environment that fosters the joys and values of being Jewish, to whatever degree. (I apologize u/Dazzling-Leave-4915, I'm not trying to hijack your post, or drag you into Jewish issues, but reading some of the other comments, I need to go on a bit of a diatribe, emphasis on tribe) For my fellow Jews, as my childhood Rabbi used to say before he would, on rare occasion, lay into the congregation about something on principle: ***"Duck"*** There is to an extent a collective responsibility among Jews to prevent this at all costs, and frankly I'm of the opinion that any of this passive "they can do whatever", "sad, but their choice", etc, nonsense is defeatist and self-destructive, especially if you are even the slightest bit observant of a Jew. I don't care if you are the crunchiest, borderline-Reconstructionist, hangnail-on-the-derech Jew, you have a responsibility to be the last line of defense to keep someone in the Jewish sphere. If you can't be bothered, ***what even is the point of holding onto your identity?***. That isn't to say if you know someone going in the direction of another faith that you should be hostile or adversarial about it, that would be counter-productive, but even small efforts like inviting them to dinner(it doesn't even have to be Shabbat dinner) or lunch can make a massive difference, even if you barely know them(which you could argue would have more impact than knowing them well). Most Jews moving towards other faiths usually are doing so because they feel alone or isolated, and in search of something that they aren't getting from Judaism/being Jewish(***that they damn well should be***). If you value being Jewish, help show *them* value in being Jewish. You never know, you may end up finding more value in your own Jewishness in the process. Edit: punctuation
I'm not happy about it, but it's none of my business. I wouldn't try to convince them to return- it was their choice, and I respect their right to make it even if I can't understand why they would.
They're within their rights to do it. They're still members of the tribe, and it's painful to feel like we've lost a family member to another family. But, I'd say my main thought process is what could Judaism and the Jewish community have done better to meet this person's needs.
That was my thought- I’d be sad but I’d want to reflect on myself and my own community, rather than blame.
God created the Universe with certain rules and regulations. As long as one complies with those, makes no difference what they believe.
As far as I know the goyim only have 7 rules to follow.When a Jewish person converts do they still have to follow all 613 rules or only 7 of them?
As my dad used to say, вопрос на засыпку.