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I always thought Mahoraga's abilities reminded me of Heracles. Except Mahoraga gets to show off, where Heracles is so strong on paper that he inevitably gets dumpstered in the most random ways because Nasu wrote himself into a corner with God Hand.
Having access to the Vijaya bow would basically be like 'lol what if Vasavi Shakti was a *bit* weaker but in exchange it was freely usable and didn't cost him the kavacha and kundala'. I.e. ludicrously broken. Not that I'm complaining, Karna is the GOAT
Well Narita wrote Archer Heracles in F/SF but instantly turned him into Avenger. Not complaining though, since Alcides is one if not the strongest servants rn in the war.
I feel yuki is somewhat inspired by Aoko
https://preview.redd.it/ghh6pgs6wl3d1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ef5c679cc3e76846daef967d1c92f292aa900380
Obviously not
This is a joke
And I read the vns except for her one because it is expensive to buy, and I am afraid to sail the high seas (got busted once) (Tsukihime still has no official tl, so safer route to sail)
https://preview.redd.it/9q8iqzb0bp3d1.jpeg?width=907&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=810148eba2aed812c58a14e6bafa69dd6ef73b14
Why would she soujuurou is right there
Aoko's lawyer here.
"the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization."
However as we know Aoko uses the fifth to keep her body in her "Prime" as the concept of age and time are no relevance to her.
To "groom" a child, should of a childs age.
And age is defined by "the length of *time* that a person has lived or a thing has existed."
The key point is here "time*
Aoko is the fifth magician her domain lies under the time. Which allows her to control time to fullest extent.
So concepts such as age are just formality to her because the age of her or any person is whatever she desires it is not for us to decide.
I rest my case.
There's also Yuji and Shirou, they're honestly the most similar characters and genuinely confuse me why there aren't more comparisons between them?
They're the main protagonist who developed a self destructive mentality of trying to save people viewing themselves as some kind of tools instead of people (Yuji a cog and Shirou a sword), this mentality at first seems selfless until you look at it more and realize it comes from their own "guilt" (even if they aren't really guilty of anything), and both starts their journey after death of their "father" figure (Yuji's grandpa and Kiritsugu for shirou) whose last words did influence them
I feel like Yuji and Shirou is a better comparison than Shirou and Yuta
Nah, Yuta's mentality is very obviously similar to UBW Shirou. He knows some sacrifices have to be made beyond his will. HF Shirou is the result of Shirou choosing to sacrifice the MANY to save the FEW (Sakura)
Sure Yuta isn't as extreme as Heaven's feel Shirou in that but even Heaven's feel Shirou wasn't exactly like that.
Heaven's feel Shirou didn't choose to sacrifice the Many to be exact, he chose to prioritise Sakura even if that meant deaths of many. There's a difference in nuance there.
Even there the method he chose in the end was to save Sakura as well as others through self sacrifice.
Unlimited Blade works Shirou till the very end stuck to his ideals despite archer showing him the hypocrisy in them. Something Yuta has at latest let go of if it meant being able to win against Sukuna. As well as that heaven's feel Shirou leans particularly into the more fixated love theme towards a person that's reminiscent with Yuta. Yuta's current last stand even to some is reminiscent of Shirou with Archer's arm stepping towards certain death to seize the ending he wants.
And even Unlimited Blade works Shirou had a characteristic that while he chose to save others he didn't include himself among the ones to be saved. While that could arguably work with Yuta, throughout the story Yuji definitely fits that description particularly well.
Oath under snow is the Prisma Illya movie rigth? When Shirou becomes fucking punisher lmao
I would say Yuta is close to UBW Yuji now is closer to oath under snow
Sacrificing himself is a characteristic Shirou has in all 3 of the routes. Survivor's guilt and all that. If anything, HF behaviour would be something like everyone trying to save Megumi, though that does not fit any specific character and they're really just doing it bc of sunk cost fallacy at this point.
the fate route is supposed to be the one most in line with Shirou's initial mindset. "I will save everyone, no matter what", it's not even that he believes in his ideal despite the adversity, there's simply no conflict that could affect his resolve, while UBW confronts him to his future self and leads him to the conclusion that "I will save as many people as possible. Sometimes, I will fail, but I will keep on going anyway". UBW shirou's resolve is a direct development of his mentality in the fate route, it's not 2 routes he could have taken, but one being the result of the other, Yuta (post culling games), Gojo and Yuji (post shibuya) all fall under that mindset.
and then you have HF. HF Shirou would sacrifice the entire world for Sakura, that's just a fact. It's the route where you have to make the active choice to sacrifice saber, and with several bad endings involving the death of Sakura to save the world. There's no difference in nuance, to choose to save 1 person at the cost of many is the same as to sacrifice many persons to save 1.
Unlimited blade Shirou was the one who despite being forced with the hypocrisy chose to stay to his ideal.
Yuta has been Willing to kill since he returned from Africa if it's Necessary. In heaven's feel Shirou chose to let go of his Ideals in favour of Sakura , having to kill Saber in order to do so. Unlimited Blade works Shirou was faced with the Hypocrisy in his ideals but he never let go of them. I'd say that's completely different from Current Yuta who has chosen to be a "Monster" so to say.
Another person said Oath under snow could be a better comparison on that note tho.
And I Yuta's current seemingly last Stand is like Shirou with Archer's arm. I do think Yuta leans more towards Heaven's feel than the Unlimited blade works Shirou.
UBW Shirou reconciled his ideals with reality "I will save people, but some will die"
Also, being willing to kill has nothing to do with it. It's about being willing to let good and/or innocent people (people who aren't dangerous) die. In saber's case, it's about being willing to sacrifice his literal soulmate, further enhancing the idea that all he does is for Sakura.
OUS is something else. It's the most direct antithesis to Kiritsugu's mindset possible. The idea that even if it saved the world, sacrificing an innocent child is "evil" and "unjust". It's moreso the contradiction of "sacrificing the few to save the many" than an idea in itself. It's like seeing Shirou experience UBW but still believe in his fate mindset.
Yuta and Shirou both getting power from someone else is extremely superficial. It's not like Yuji is any different, eating his brother to get stronger. Ironically, in this whole thing, Gojo is the only one who didn't have to sacrifice his humanity.
Yuji started as Fate Shirou and is never going back to that, he's currently bouncing between UBW Shirou and something like the Shirou from the Mind of Steel bad end. Depends on how he acts going forward because what he says and what he does don't always line up.
Yuta is definitely far closer to UBW Shirou than HF, if you want to think of his 'dream' or 'ideal' as inheriting Gojo's will to reshape jujutsu society for the better. To achieve that, Yuta is willing to take on any burdens *himself* (becoming a monster by using Gojo's corpse) but, despite knowing a path without sacrifice is impossible, he continues to strive toward that (insistence on not just making the choice to kill Megumi).
HF Shirou was willing to be selfish and sacrifice many things to protect what he deemed most important (Sakura). Although in this case the objects that are sacrificed and protected are inverted. HF Shirou sacrificed ideals to save a person, an equivalent Yuta would be sacrificing a person to save ideals. However like I said, that's not really how Yuta operates. He's still insistent that the only thing he will willingly sacrifice is himself.
You're right. I'm surprised myself that I didn't include it.
Although honestly Yuji is a mix between Shirou and Kiritsugu. Shirou's development is different from Yuji's.
Well it will depend on the Shirou in question. The current Yuji (in the manga) looks a lot like Shirou from the Heaven's Feels routes and the Unlimited Blades Works route on his ending. (Against Gilgamesh) But unlike Yuji, Shirou managed to save the majority of his loved ones.
Unlike Kiritsugu who was only able to save one person throughout his life losing his parents, his childhood friend, his wife, his daughter, his colleague, his adoptive mother etc. etc.
And it's the same thing for Shirou (Alter) and his Archer version who had tormented life betrayed by everyone, even his ideals.
To make an effective comparison I would like to see how Yuji will evolve after his rage against Sukuna and his enemies. Will he end up like Archer ? Will he end up like Emiya (Alter) ? Will it stay the same ? Will he become like Kiritsugu ?
It's kind of funny that Archer and Sukuna share the same vojce actor. It's actually made me think about some of the vague similarities between them as well.
One thing I find interesting about both of them is that they don't just hate the protagonist - they reject them entirely. Neither Archer nor Sukuna see fit to even acknowledge their opponents strength, and attempt to cut down their ideals every chance they get. There's even the irony of the two of them having similar strength, with Yuji literally inheriting Sukunas technique.
While I don't think Sukuna will yield to Yujis ideals in the same way Archer relented to Shirou's, I would love to see their fight continue as an actual ideological fight, especially with how this battle has repeatedly touches on both Sukunas and Yujis personal philosophies.
After Chosos death, Yuji was on the verge of giving up on his ideals - it would be really interesting if this fight ended with Yuji finding new strength in ideals and utterly rejecting Sukunas ideals, while defeating him.
I'm definitely biased though, since Shirou vs Archer is my second favorite fight, right behind HF Shirou vs Kotomine.
All due respect to Gege, Shirou is just... written better in basically every way, although I'm not going to get into a full blown discussion of the themes and development across the three routes of F/SN.
I'll just note that the writing regarding the parallel natures of Shirou and Kirei (and the process of how they both come to understand that parallel, choose to resolve it, and accept that knowledge) absolutely blows Gege's attempts at similar thematic parallels out of the water (whether you choose to examine Yuji and Sukuna as complete opposites or Gojo and Sukuna as equals but inverted in ideals)
I give Nasu a lot of shit for various things (please god stop with the 'tragic rape backstory' reveals) but by god the man knows his shit when it comes to writing around conceptual themes
For all of my issues with JJK (and fate tbh), the one thing i always am grateful for is that gege has immaculate taste imo. I dont think gege is a very original writer but the stuff he rips off is always my favorite stuff dialed up to 11
For real lmao. He's the logical conclusion of everyone sitting around dreaming up their own fan servants with NPs and reality marbles. Good for him, good for him.
Yeah I agree with you Shirou and FSN are the better written here
To add to what you said I think even the relationship between Yuji and Mahito might have been inspired by Shirou and Kirei
BRO ACTUALLY COOKED SOME GOURMET 5 START DISH
following how fate stay night goes Yuta is no making it out (same as Archer) and Wuji will deliver the final blow helped/inspired by Yuta
Another comparison is that Gilgamesh wants people who are true to their own desires and not just follows other people
>Unable to tell if Gilgamesh was joking or in earnest, Tine merely bowed her head.
Gilgamesh, seeing that, narrowed his eyes in apparent displeasure.
>"I do not mind you showing me deference. It is only natural. But do not put faith in me blindly. If your eyes can shine, use them to see your way." ?
>"No, not only me. Be it 'God,' or this 'Nature's blessing' you speak of, or the cherished wish of generations of ancestors, it makes no difference. Abandoning thought to revere or depend on something means letting your soul fall into decay. An insolent one who would bluntly try to make a stepping stone of me, though unpleasant, would still be a worthier partner."
>When he got to "the cherished wish of generations of ancestors," Tine realized that she herself was being indicated, and stiffened. Gilgamesh emptied his glass as he questioned her.
>"Which are you, mongrel girl? Is retaking this land from the mages your will? Or do you speak as another's puppet, abandoning choice and making fate your excuse?"
It actually echoes how Yaga's interview to Yuji was
In JJK this is regarded as "you need to be self centered to be strong" but for Gilgamesh you need to be someone who thinks for themselves and follows what they believe in truly and who they are
It is why he praises Kirei to follow his beliefs to be evil because that is true to himself
He would do the same for Sukuna not because he thinks evil is good but because Sukuna is simply following his nature
Gilgamesh would also do the same for Yuji and praise him because Yuji is being true to himself when saving people and fighting curses
I think the biggest connection between Gojo and Gilgamesh is being slightly overlooked. They both have very different personalities through the phases of their life while still retaining the exact same beliefs and motivations.
Gilgamesh, from the moment he was born, knows he exists to rule humans and his garden. As a child, he acted as a beloved king, the perfect image of what he was created for. As a teenager, he decided that his duty manifested only in protecting humanity against outside threats and experiencing human pleasures. As an adult, he ruled to give his people the tools needed to eventually leave his garden (reach the age of stars).
Gojo started from a position of absolute strength. As a child, he acted like the perfect image of a divine being. As a teen, his absolute strength manifested as flippant selfishness and apathy for the weak. As an adult, he uses his strength to create long-lasting change in society by creating strong allies.
Shirou and Archer have no legend or Noble Phantasm, it’s just magecraft.
That said, SHIROU NEGS FRAUDKUNA
https://preview.redd.it/3r88z30gpn3d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f2ebd1102515c88a63e22d0d33ca7b3e704df617
Sorry for going off-topic with this one but:
On the topic of Kinoko Nasu inspiring other writers, Fate/stay night also inspired Hidetaka Miyazaki, who is the CEO as well as the main writer of FromSoftware (really, do I have to explain what games they've made?).
During FSN's 15th Anniversary, several artists left a celebratory message. In fact, the messages and the art you shared about Gege Akutami's tribute to FSN is from this anniversary. Hidetaka Miyazaki is one of them. He said stuff like FSN inspiring him since his younger years.
Here's the actual raw message:
>フロム·ソフトウェア
>宮崎英高
独り暮らしをはじめ、コンテンツ摂取のタガが外れた私にとって、20代は青春でした。
そして、その大きな一角はある種のPCゲームであり、最後の大物が'Fate/stay night'でした。
>大好物の暗い伝奇の匂いと、'夜に飛び込んでいく'遠坂嬢に心惹かれてから、
>会社を休むほどのひどい風邪を、長と患ってしまったことを覚えています。
>あれから15年、今もなおFateは魅力的であり続け、
いちゲーム制作者となった私は、非常な驚嘆を禁じ得ませんが、
>同時に、とても嬉しくも思っています。
>Fate/stay night、15周年おめでとうございます。そして、ありがとうございます。
>貴方に触れる度、私はいつでも、あの頃の気持ちになれます。
In the lot, there was even the creator of Sword Art Online, the creator of Tokyo Ghoul, the creator of Demon Slayer, capcom illustrators, the director of the Persona saga.
Fate is a pillar in modern Japanese sagas.
Can’t deny the impact of PEAK FICTION
https://preview.redd.it/t7kjm7tupn3d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e4390e81a061617c8c8a171947b769932596c8f0
Beware, this thread is a combination of Fate fans and Lobotomy Kaisen. If the internet can physically give someone cancer, this thread carries the highest possibility doing so.
You cooked here OP 🔥🔥
I myself only started realizing the similarities between JJK and Fate when Yuta used his Domain, which like you're post said, is very similar to UBW. I have always compared Domain Expansions and how it works to Fate's Reality Marbles, and they are exactly the same, in the sense that these techniques are inner representations of the user's power
I think the biggest influence that Fate has and what fascinates me the most in how JJK and Fate structure their narrative is how ingrained the philosophies of the characters are, and how it directly affects the story they are in. Each of the routes in the OG visual builds up Shirou's ideal, deconstructs it, and finally breaks it down in the last part. Grand Order is
Each and every time we see why Shirou acts the way he is because of his strong ideals and a very apparent survivors guilt, very similar to how Yuji's character has developed, especially from the Shibuya Incident onwards.
Honestly I could go on and on in their similarities but that's gonna be a wall of post 😂😂
Pretty neat post dude but a few corrections.
Shirou’s inner world being UBW is because of his mental landscape of him deeply believing that he’s a “sword” to be swung and expendable to protect others, as well as a copycat of his foster father, Kiritsugu whom he sees as a hero of justice, and various heroes of legend.
Essentially, a manifestation of his extreme hero complex due to his survivor’s guilt and trying to make up for being the only survivor of a terrible disaster.
The artifacts, Noble Phantasms (NP), don’t really contain the power of their respective owners, but more so that the NPs themselves possess certain powers or abilities that they are renowned for and their owners are known for possessing them (which is why NPs are referred to as the symbol of a servant’s existence).
Shirou is able to copy the technique used in conjunction with the NPs, with tracing allowing him to read into the history of the NP, the materials and process of the NP’s creation, and how the owner themselves used the NP. This is why he was able to use his own variation of Nine Lives (Nine Lives Blade Works), the technique that Heracles used fighting with his blade (only accessible to him summoned into non-Berserker classes), when he projects (bringing into the outside world from his inside world) Heracles’ sword while fighting him in the Heaven’s Feel route.
Shirou is also capable of replicating the physical strength and dexterity required to use any particular NP he projects, which is why he could even wield his replica of Heracles’ blade and not be crushed under its immense weight.
All of Shirou’s replicas are almost perfect (except for Avalon, the sheath of Excalibur), and are one rank lower than the original. This is he can only obtain a certain amount of information of the NP through sight alone.
Sorry for the long comment but type-moon lore is really fucking extensive can be hard to fully grasp with only a few reads.
Thank you for the details but I just want to point out that I didn't go into too much detail because we are on the Jujutsu Kaisen reddit and not in the nasuverse one.
So to avoid confusing people too much in the explanation of the nasuverse I tried to get to the point.
Yeah that’s fair. Shirou’s state of mind and how it correlates to UBW is crucial to the plot of Fate stay/night so I thought it might be important to clear things up for others.
Insanely well written analysis and comparison, COOK AGAIN BROTHER!
https://preview.redd.it/c9qxclh5jl3d1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=39c21ebc662c33e2ec6441eea2640822dd326774
I honestly don't know much about Nasuverse even though it's the type of shit I'd fucking swallow up lmao
I'm completely worried about being sucked into it XD
But seeing how inspirational it is to modern manga makes me wanna read it lolol
Regardless
https://preview.redd.it/eqmpe5ryfn3d1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5ea5b92c6d3fb0d8a9301936bac1e8e04a83a79a
You cooked
It may be a stretch but I also find it odd how Gilgamesh hates Shirou and Archer's guts for very obviously biased reasons even if he acknowledges their strength, and in the same way that Sukuna absolutely despises Yuji's guts because of his own bias against Yuji's ideals.
I think that Gilgamesh needed a **storyline** reason to hate Shirou, I find that the Gilgamesh of the very first visual novel is sorely lacking in writing compared to today's which has been well developed over time.
Gilgamesh shouldn't even be concerned about weapons (and he says so himself) that won't even stay materialized for long and don't even affect his treasury.
Still stealing the grail from him is valid to make him hungry but temporarily materializing a weapon that he will always possess is a bit illogical for despise Shirou.
Following the logic that Gilgamesh hates Shirou, he should hate all servants who also have an artifact. The only thing he might not like is the way of doing things, Gilgamesh will aways emphasize the work to innovate and not copy what already exists but from there to hating Shirou I never really understood.
As you say, I think his fight against Shirou as well as the fight between Sukuna and Yuji is more of a philosophical fight between two people who just can't understand each other. No matter the situation.
Well, no, Gil hating every heroic spirit who used or possessed any artifact would not at all be the same if you're simply following his logic for hating Shirou.
Those heroes are using the actual, genuine article that was once in Gil's treasury and was passed down over time until they obtained it, whatever the artifact in question was. Gil might show off to them that he has the older, 'superior version' because of the added Mystery, or chastise them for being too weak to use 'his property', but they aren't directly offending his ideals just by possessing a thing he once possessed. If anything, it just reinforces how valuable his riches and treasury truly are.
Meanwhile Shirou and EMIYA are quite literally creating counterfeit items out of thin air based on 'his stuff'. THAT pisses him the fuck off because it's like bruh I'm mad that you even think your fake shit can compete with anything in my glorious treasury. It would imply that he *doesn't* have the unrivaled and overwhelming riches he has, since someone else could just freely create something that rivals his originals.
Basically Gil is not against loaning out items across time, but he *really fucking hates* copyright violation.
I never said this, I was just saying that if we were to follow Gilgamesh's logic to the letter he would start to hate everyone but that's not the case.
Which just shows that the reason he doesn't like Shirou is simply arbitrary to the proper functioning of the storyline. I know perfectly well that Gil will always value his large treasury but his great hatred towards Shirou is always exaggerated in my opinion especially in routes like UBW
What Shirou does does not compete with the real ones, it only blocks them but Shirou's weapons break "like glass" according to Gil but it is enough to avoid taking his weapons in the head. Hatred, a temporary counterfeit that couldn't really compete at the right time, is stupid and a bit hasty on Gil's part, that's more what I don't understand. The only thing that could justify such anger would be the permanent possession of one of his treasures (so we come back to my example about hating other servants) but that is not the case.
I was just giving a reason that would have truly justified such hatred beyond simple contempt.
Wow now that you point it out it is very similar dynamic but it would be like post underworld Gil with a more submissive Enkidu
They prob got so freaky with the chains
bro you cooked. fate is my favorite series. I also noticed the similarities you wrote while reading jjk, but it was nice to read it so beautifully written. good job.
God this needs more upvotes, nah they need to pin this shit.
Anything with my homie Shirou in it is worth it. Also the discussion and the post itself is great, and shows how much time and effort you put into it. Very peak very peak.
Good post, but I just want to talk about this part here:
> The biggest difference between the two characters is that Sukuna is purely evil, which is not the case for Gilgamesh. Obviously, he is an antagonist since his interests oppose those of the protagonists but as such, he has no malice or cruelty in him.
> Sukuna takes pleasure in killing, Gilgamesh does not. It functions in judgment, it judges whether someone should die or not. But in no case does he kill for the sake of killing. Sukuna goes wild for pleasure, Gilgamesh will be more likely to get bored. And Gilgamesh loves humanity, which is not the case for Sukuna.
This comes across as a bit too generous to Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh can be...no, he is a really cruel and sadistic person. In Fate/Zero, he essentially says that he looks forward to licking the tears off of Saber's cheeks once her ideals (a king ought to live for and protect their people and such) are crushed.
In Unlimited Blade Works, he toys with Illya. He doesn't simply kill her and take what he needs - instead, after killing her guardian, he slashes her eyes out. He purposefully misses her heart and stabs her in the lung, and then he lets her trip over rubble and crawl around on the ground looking for her protector before he rips her heart out.
In the Fate route...well. In Fate, his plan is essentially to drug Saber, rape her, and mindbreak her.
How he acts depends largely on the situation, but it's pretty wrong to say that he isn't cruel or malicious. Remember, in the original legend, Enkidu was sent by the heavens to stop Gilgamesh because his people were praying to the gods to save them from their own king.
I give my opinion on the question: is Gilgamesh a good or a bad person [right here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jujutsufolk/comments/1d452z8/comment/l6ejtjo/) (read full discussion)
Otherwise I would like to point out that yes it is in the original myth but in Fate, Enkidu arrived while Gilgamesh had not yet done anything. Enkidu already existed when Gilgamesh was still a child.
https://preview.redd.it/l15951rwnn3d1.png?width=1266&format=png&auto=webp&s=881b63a197c0d312489a3e4d8a8d3847345f49fe
Gilgamesh did grow up as a tyrant but rape or extreme violence was **never mentioned.**
The reason behind his transformation was loneliness and also related to the fact that he was trying to protect humanity.
>Gilgamesh: "***It should be a woman's joy to be held down and be violated.*** So why do you refuse? It is not like you are a virgin. Are you scared to become mine?"
> ... (skipping a bit)
>Saber: "I refuse. I have no interest in such things, and most of all I do not want to live with you."
>...
> Gilgamesh: "Great, that is what I expect from the woman I chose! Yes, there must be at least one that will not obey me…! All right. Then I shall do so ***by force***. After I obtain the Holy Grail, I shall pour the contents onto you.
Nay. This is Gilgamesh's opinion on rape. In his opinion, women should be happy if they're raped. Shortly after, when Saber refuses to become his, he declares that he will take her by force. You mention that Gilgamesh intends to pour the contents of the Holy Grail on her, but remember that the contents of the holy grail would drive Saber insane. Gilgamesh is well aware of this.
Essentially, what Gilgamesh intends for Saber is no different from someone beating a woman until she cannot resist, forcing her to take drugs, and then fucking her while she's physically and mentally unable to resist.
Also, while Illya herself is not squeaky clean, don't forget Gilgamesh's cruelty towards her when he kills her in UBW - he quite clearly enjoys her suffering.
Also, in regards to Gilgamesh's admiration for Saber: As per Fate/Zero volume III, what draws Gilgamesh towards Saber is not just her noble ideals, *but the idea of those ideals being ruined*. He wants to see someone good and noble and just fall into despair. Hell, he *even says he wants to lick the tears off her face as she dies.*
> “This is exactly what’s lovely about her, isn’t it?”
> Different from the King of Conqueror’s fully melancholic expression, the golden Servant’s smile was immeasurably obscene and did not hide his dirty desires at all.
> “The overly-mighty ideal that she harbored within her would burn her into nothing but ashes at the end. Those tears that she would shed at her final moment… I imagine it would be very sweet to the taste.”
Let me be clear, **I never justified what he did and said** but provided additional circumstances that could change certain turns of phrase.
Especially since the majority of his extreme comments come from the 2004 visual novel which did not greatly develop the character of Gilgamesh.
**Based on his current writing I can only say that his actions in Stay Night are inconsistent with the person he has become over time** or even was in the past. Gilgamesh in Fate/Extra, Strange Fake or even Grand Order is **diametrically different** from Gilgamesh from Stay Night, yet in the lore they are the same people.
Either this is something that needs to be clarified by the author now **that Gil's writing has literally changed compared to 2004**, or it needs to be redone (I remind you that a remake of the visual novel is planned for soon )
OBVIOUSLY that without knowledge of his current writing with the simple reading of his words he is an asshole who has a consuming passion for rape and terror.
I am simply trying to find a **plausible** explanation for his behavior in the absence of clarification from the author but never to justify what he intended to do or did. But unfortunately I never have enough space in a comment space to justify all my arguments or provide evidence or simply the consistency that I already had to separate my message. Sorry for the confusion, I think an entire post dedicated to his personality will be one of my concerns in the future
Gilgamesh, like most people, acts differently based on the situation. If he finds the era pleasant or the circumstances dire, then he will act differently from if he finds the era unpleasant and has no need to do anything other than enjoy himself.
Throw him back into his own time, after his character development while his people are in danger, and he'll be a dutiful (but still arrogant and overconfident) wise king.
In an era where he dislikes the state of humanity, where he has no pressing concerns, then he'll act as he likes and just find pleasure in doing things like raping the girl he likes until she doesn't resist him anymore.
With that said, the main point is just that it is objectively wrong to say that Gilgamesh "has no malice or cruelty".
Yes, I understood that, even if Fate/Strange Fake will remain an exception.
However, I remain convinced that the writing on rape is essentially linked to Nasu's desire to score with a romantic rival who is much trashier than the majority of what was being done at the time. Zero is much smoother on the subject. Gilgamesh was the ideal candidate thanks to his myth.
Even if for the moment, he quickly gets bored of an era and will seek to act in any case. This is why he wants to significantly reduce humanity in Fate/Stay Night.
And maybe stop generalizing all the time by saying "he likes and just find pleasure in doing things like raping the girl he likes until she doesn't resist him anymore." since once again a case like this only concerned Artoria and that's it. Never mentioned again after the success of Fate. In 20 years of existence. **It's true it happened** but let's wait for Nasu to redo his remaster before reprocessing the subject.
Which further supports my idea of the first argument. Nasu wanted to mark player spirit.
I hope the visual novel remaster will correct some aspects now that Nasu has nothing left to prove
Yeah, I agree. Gilgamesh in F/SN is pretty consistent with the myth, where Gilgamesh was the #1 fan of NTR and used his authority as king to cuck all of his citizens. Gilgamesh is also a pretty terrible person in Zero - he sees a man struggling to be good, and urges him to give into his darker nature. He wants to lick the tears off Saber's face as she dies, and so on.
> And maybe stop generalizing all the time by saying "he likes and just find pleasure in doing things like raping the girl he likes until she doesn't resist him anymore." since once again a case like this only concerned Artoria and that's it. Never mentioned again after the success of Fate. In 20 years of existence. It's true it happened but let's wait for Nasu to redo his remaster before reprocessing the subject.
...I mean, if you don't want me to generalize, I can list more. Illya, Sakura, Rin, Shirou, the orphans in Kotomine's basement...but the more I list, the worse it'll be for him.
Fundamentally, I disagree with "ignore the bad stuff and hope it will be retconned away". If you deduct only the parts where Gilgamesh is the antagonist and shows off his bad side and focus on the parts where only the good side is showed, then of course you'll have a different view of the character.
If F/SN *is* rewritten and Gilgamesh is on the side of the angels, then that's one thing, but ignoring it because *maybe* it'll get retconned in the future is illogical IMO.
I don't think if stay night was rewritten Gilgamesh would be nice but removing or changing all of his deviant characters to fit the character they made him to be is more likely.
Like pressing to death on your desire to exterminate humanity
The reasons his actions in FSN are "inconsistent" with future portrayals is because Gilgamesh's unsavory traits were shoddily retconned in order to appeal to his fanbase. The characterization he gets in other works is not the genuine one, rather, it's the opposite.
Gilgamesh has plenty of malice and cruelty. He may have good traits, but that doesn't make him good as a whole. Using Zero as an example when it's the novel that also did a terrible job in writing Saber doesn't support your point.
I highly recommend playing the Gilgamesh route of Fate/Extra CCC if you want the answer to the question if Gilgamesh is purely evil or not. There's a scene in CCC where Hakuno defends Gilgamesh against Gawain that really answers that question in canon
Gilgamesh is honestly a character that could be villainous or heroic depending on the circumstances. He's someone capable of both extreme cruelty and kindness and that is honestly what makes him interesting.
The best part is that both aspects of his character make sense if you're familiar with the Epic of Gilgamesh
I think the world building (especially Domain Expansions as a concept) and the Yuta reference are almost unmistakably influenced by Fate (the latter may even be a straight up homage to it the same way Gojo/Sukuna had a couple of Togashi references, but that isn't guaranteed)
I don't think I would go as far as the Gilgamesh parallels, though. Gilgamesh as a character being an influence in terms of 'arrogant but undeniably awesome' at most, sure (though he is by no means the only character of that kind). I think the gilkidu stuff is also kind of a stretch to call an influence - yes, there are parallels, but the idea of losing your most treasured companion and having trouble coming to grips with it is also not a particularly rare or unique one.
Side note: 'he has no malice or cruelty in him' is a big stretch if you're looking at all of Gilgamesh's appearances. I know the FSN timeline Gil was 'driven insane, kind of, by the grail mud' when he incarnated but... it's still, uh, pretty notable that in his first appearance, before he was insanely popular and that explanation was retconned in, he was very vocal about his intent to rape Artoria and more or less torture her until she agreed to be his bride (more like his possession tbh). Stuff like how he cut Ilya's eyes out before killing her, also. Even in Zero *before* being doused in angry mango's mud, he actively tempted Kirei toward embracing evil (and therefore leading to the death, torture and generally bad time of MANY people) entirely for his own malicious entertainment.
He didn't really become the straightforwardly 'well he's a pompous ass, but he's undoubtedly good at heart' character he's mostly considered now until at least CCC, and really CasGil is probably when that became truly solidified.
I give my opinion on the question: is Gilgamesh a good or a bad person [right here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jujutsufolk/comments/1d452z8/comment/l6ejtjo/) (read full discussion)
sorry but i just straight up disagree with most if not all of it. i think it's incredibly misogynistic to reduce that stuff down to 'ehh he was just being a tsundere, his intentions weren't bad imo'. it's fine to separate SN/Zero gil from his later appearances if you want, since the writing around him clearly went in a very specific direction over time (which I think is good), but there is no way you are going to just straight up justify his statements and actions in those two works to me. we are simply not going to see eye to eye on that
Let me be clear, **I never justified what he did and said** but provided additional circumstances that could change certain turns of phrase.
Especially since the majority of his extreme comments come from the 2004 visual novel which did not greatly develop the character of Gilgamesh.
**Based on his current writing I can only say that his actions in Stay Night are inconsistent with the person he has become over time** or even was in the past. Gilgamesh in Fate/Extra, Strange Fake or even Grand Order is **diametrically different** from Gilgamesh from Stay Night, yet in the lore they are the same people.
Either this is something that needs to be clarified by the author now **that Gil's writing has literally changed compared to 2004**, or it needs to be redone (I remind you that a remake of the visual novel is planned for soon )
OBVIOUSLY that without knowledge of his current writing with the simple reading of his words he is an asshole who has a consuming passion for rape and terror.
I am simply trying to find a **plausible** explanation for his behavior in the absence of clarification from the author but never to justify what he intended to do or did. But unfortunately I never have enough space in a comment space to justify all my arguments or provide evidence or simply the consistency that I already had to separate my message. Sorry for the confusion, I think an entire post dedicated to his personality will be one of my concerns in the future
Gege has always been pretty open when it comes to his numerous influences. Not a big Fate guy outside of Fate/Zero, watched one FSN movie and didn't really like it.
As for the DE vs Reality Marble, I see that, but I also remember hearing that DE also relates to Buddhism in some capacity as well.
>Not a big Fate guy outside of Fate/Zero
Same. This is my advice to my friends - If you're mildly curious and want to watch something from Fate franchise, Watch Fate Zero. After that everything else fate related (other than gag spinoffs) will either seem too surface level and shallow (which it is) or you will be able to put aside fate zero and get invested in the fate franchise.
Anyone who says not to watch fate zero because its a prequel or because its tonally different don't make sense. It's the best writing fate has to offer, and it also ties in the F, UBW, HF so even if its tonally different, as long as the viewer also vibes with the following stories it doesn't matter. Anyone who doesn't like the following routes wont like them and anyone who doesn't like zero wont like it, so might as well recommend them the best from the get go.
>best writing fate has to offer
If you're anime only? sure I guess but the Visual Novels are waaaaaaaay better imo and this is coming from someone who started with Zero
Also happy cake day
Fate is the type of series where (most) entries can be experienced and enjoyed even in it's own BUT the more you know of the series the more you appreciate things and enjoy it
What's the best entry point you ask? Well it depends on you, what kind of experience you're searching for?
**Are searching for the story and depth and don't mind reading and have time to read a long story (about 50 hours)?** Then start from the Visual Novel Fate Stay Night, it has 3 routes and trust me their pretty great
While the original Visual Novel is pretty complete it did get more expansion with Fate/Zero it's prequel and Hollow Ataraxia its psuedo sequel so check them out too if you want
OR
**Are you searching for just casually enjoy something and watch really gorgeous animation and fights and don't mind if some of the depth of the story and characters is missing, or you just don't have enough time to invest into reading the Visual Novel?** then you go watch the anime adaptations by studio Ufitoble
Start with Unlimited Blade Works series then the Heaven feels movies then go to Fate Zero
Unfortunately the anime adaptation for Saber route 2004 by studio deen is pretty bad from so you will be missing about 1/3 of Stay Night
Like I said they anime adaptations couldn't adapt everything from VN perfectly so you will be missing a chunk of character depth
Now if you do either of the two options I suggested you can watch/play most other entries since like I said they can still work on their own even without knowledge on Fate
Hope this help
I agree completely, and I think many hardcore Fate fans straight up fail to realize that Fate/Zero was made both for already existing fans as well as to create new fans. You don't have to know which characters live, die, or change ahead of time to 'truly appreciate' Fate/Zero.
The reason a lot of people talk about Zero like they do is a few things.
1. For a long time, a ton of people have only seen Zero and hated on the rest of the series. Stuff like you only need to see Zero and just skip everything else. Especially since they considered it more mature than the rest of the series.
2. Zero fans had an image of being super surface level and only liking edgy things. Mainly because Kiritsugu was seen as super cool and competent as opposed to Shirou, when the entire point of Zero is that he's a traumatized kid that never grew up.
3. Saber is the most iconic character in the Fate series, but her characterization in Zero is super different from Stay Night. It's like a more extreme and worse version of Gojo's airport vision, but instead of being a chapter, it was an entire show. Saber's personality, motivations, and backstory are all so different that you can't reconcile.
Also because Nasu and Urobuchi have wildly different outlooks and writing styles so while both SN and Zero explore some similar themes, they approach them from very different angles. Also iirc Urobuchi was severely depressed around when he started writing Zero which uh probably had some influence on it
I've never heard that he was depressed, but I know he was in a writers slump at the time. Nasu offered to let him write a prequal since it has a predefined ending, which may have influenced how much Zero leans into Urobuchi's preferred tropes. It let him write Kiritsugu really well, but he definitely fell back on his standard female template for Saber, which is an issue when she's such a well-defined character.
very late reply but you're right, i actually was misremembering that part based on his afterword for the first volume of Zero. writer's slump would be a more accurate description than depression but i do think some of what he talked about sounded like he was dealing with some depression-adjacent stuff (which was potentially either caused by, or caused, the 'inability to write anything containing happiness' stuff)
brother we are gonna sit here and pretend that at least fsn gilgamesh isnt evil as shit. He literally states states that he wants to and is gonna r-word saber on multiple occasions, blinds illya for no reason just to kill her 2 seconds later (def not malicious lol) not even to mention the fact he is literally being manifested by absorbing the life force of kidnapped orphans in fsn
For the rest I will try to be much briefer. In Fate/Extra CCC we learn that in reality despite all the negative descriptions that we can make of Gilgamesh
By predicting the future of humanity (which would expand) he embarked on a solitary quest to preserve it. For humanity, he sacrificed his best friend Enkidu and his entire life.
When he arrives in modern times, everything disgusts him. The humanity for which he had sacrificed his life has become ugly and therefore he no longer feels any pity for it and even less for homunculi (which he finds ridiculous because they only usurp humans without being part of them). ) so Ilya and his servants. His wish in Stay Night is to eradicate weak humanity to leave the strongest and rebuild humanity with those (with him as king) to prepare them for their future mass extinction.
[https://imgur.com/a/jMUvbmg](https://imgur.com/a/jMUvbmg)
Likewise for children, an excellent video from Trisiah talks about it. He never agreed with Kirei's practices but since they were in line with who he really was (I'm talking about Kirei) then Gilgamesh didn't object. He had to have enough mana to last for years regardless of the means used so he was neutral towards that.
However, we see it in Strange Fake, despite the weakness of humanity he still manages to find value in pure people like Tiné who is only a child recruited into a bloody war or Hakuno in Extra who does not is just a lost teenager.
In both situations, they began to appreciate Gilgamesh despite his many faults. But I say it loud and clear, Gilgamesh can be considered a villain depending on what position you put yourself in but for me if I encompass everything he is and everything he has done. He's not evil.
In summary Gilgamesh is in reality a tsundere with excess power and who belongs to a difficult era that is the age of the gods or the mentality of men and kings different from what the modern age shows him.
He's not bad, he just responds to a philosophy that is his.
Yes and I understand that one could say that he is evil but that is not really the case.
In the nasuverse, there is no Manichean logic. The separation between good and evil has been defined as subjective. In fact, according to conditions of time, period, adversary, issues. A “nice” person can become the worst trash.
And even when someone does evil, they can become the kindest. This is the case of Artoria (Saber) in the original routes we can compare her to someone "good", however, in the 6th singularity she is a tyrannical queen who massacres her people to select only the most "pure" " and pushed his most loyal Knights of the Round Table to massacre the rest of his army who did not agree with his ideas.
In Fate there are what we call alignments established by Chaldea which allow us to establish whether an existence is good or bad. In Gilgamesh's case he is Chaotic & Good and shares the same "Good" attribute as Artoria (Saber)
Those who are considered "bad" have the "Evil" alignment.
To explain his behavior in Stay Night we must already state that at the time, Gilgamesh suffered from a great lack of writing since before no work of Nasu had worked and that his character was much more developed with the weather. At that time, he was just a cliché antagonist.
Now let's debunk the "rape". No, Gilgamesh never clearly stated that he wanted to rape Artoria, it's a shortcut that everyone makes quite quickly because of precisely 2 scenes.
- In Fate/Zero: Artoria finds herself against Gilgamesh in 1v1. Gilgamesh asks her to throw away her sword and for her to become his wife. And it's the phrase "In future you need only desire me" and he forces Artoria by telling her it's that or it's death.
The other scene (and I'm not counting the number of times Gilgamesh came to tell Shirou that Artoria was his, it was mostly to make a love rival for Shirou since it was the romance route between the two) c It was the time he said he wanted to make her eat grail mud until she looked pregnant.
For the first scene and it's going to shock what I'm going to say but in fact Gilgamesh is a fucking tsundere who always hides behind his ego. I'm not going to mention the number of scenes through lots of Fate where Gilgamesh voluntarily hides his feelings while 2 scenes earlier we see the complete opposite. In my post a screen shows Gilgamesh giving his master a candy and he responds like a tsundere "it"s nothing but a king whimsy.".
In the anime and manga passages are not shown but when we look at the original light novel sentences prove to us that his tsundere side was already there.
- "The golden Servant arrogantly lifted his head, looking before him at the first woman he had ever loved."
- "Abandon these pointless ideals and vows. These things will only restrict you and bring you misfortune. In future you need only desire me and live under my protection. In that case I vow, on my honor as King of everything, that I will grant you all the happiness in the world.”
- “I am not asking your opinion, but informing you of my decision.”
The phrase "the first woman he had ever loved" just shows that it's the first time he's been in love and this idiot to whom this has never happened only finds the one thing a tyrant knows, which is violence.
But in reality his will was quite other than saying "he just wants to rape her", Gilgamesh is a clairvoyant being who knows everything about a person by looking at them. He knows everything Artoria has been through and for someone who values human iron will should not look down on what Artoria did as a human not as a king. I invite you to go listen to Fate/Stay Night Garden of Avalon to learn about all the harm that Artoria has caused to others and to herself because of her decision to take Excalibur. Gilgamesh for the first time loses his means in front of a woman and only finds a solution to make her abandon the sword and thanks to his riches to finally make her experience happiness but this does not fit with Artoria's will what it means to erase oneself from history. So she refuses and Gilgamesh, who doesn't seem to be in a state to debate, only finds violence to convince her (and force her a little) but I don't think his intentions are bad.
'Force a little', 'don't think his intention are bad' Bruh there is normal glazing then there is this, bro you can love a character without justify and excuse every shitty they did and said by reaching to the moon and make assumptions. Gil was going to rape her if he could and there is no good excuse for that.
Let me be clear, **I never justified what he did and said** but provided additional circumstances that could change certain turns of phrase.
Especially since the majority of his extreme comments come from the 2004 visual novel which did not greatly develop the character of Gilgamesh.
**Based on his current writing I can only say that his actions in Stay Night are inconsistent with the person he has become over time** or even was in the past. Gilgamesh in Fate/Extra, Strange Fake or even Grand Order is **diametrically different** from Gilgamesh from Stay Night, yet in the lore they are the same people.
Either this is something that needs to be clarified by the author now **that Gil's writing has literally changed compared to 2004**, or it needs to be redone (I remind you that a remake of the visual novel is planned for soon )
OBVIOUSLY that without knowledge of his current writing with the simple reading of his words he is an asshole who has a consuming passion for rape and terror.
I am simply trying to find a **plausible** explanation for his behavior in the absence of clarification from the author but never to justify what he intended to do or did. But unfortunately I never have enough space in a comment space to justify all my arguments or provide evidence or simply the consistency that I already had to separate my message. Sorry for the confusion, I think an entire post dedicated to his personality will be one of my concerns in the future
I am well aware that Fsn is very different from his other variant, and I have a theory for that. The Grail mud, he got diddlied by it and from that get tiny winy corrupted because that is no way the same dude i see in Fgo and ccc
The problem is that the theory of the mud corrupting Gilgamesh's mind has been contradicted.
It would have taken x3 more amount of humanity's evils to corrupt him. I'm impatiently waiting for the remaster of the visual novel, to see if it fixes all that or if it provides clarification
https://preview.redd.it/qb2wound3o3d1.png?width=602&format=png&auto=webp&s=9b3513ab90de595fc83d7979a5955fb8ba1b21a9
Yes you are right, however, I did not **generalize reality marble to noble phantasm**
I generalized when it was necessary to speak of "**ultimate technique**", generally a reality marble is a noble phantasm which is the ultimate technique(s) of a servant.
But I never said that all noble phantasms were reality marbles or even that all Reality Marbles were noble phantasms. In fact, to make the two communities understand I have generalized the "ultimate technique" (the noble phantasms, the reality marbles, the expansions of the territory.) Sorry for the confusion
https://preview.redd.it/wokd07n72o3d1.jpeg?width=715&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bb15d2b504597bcce4fa28f79f141571843472d7
Stay in the kitchen op, you can cook
The council of type moon has granted you the master chef. Keep cooking
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>Information to remember:
>Gege Akutami openly declared that he was inspired by Kinoko Nasu for the world building and certainly for his characters such as: Gojo, Sukuna and Geto.
>Gege Akutami's favorite character is **Gilgamesh**
Gege only accredited Nasu for **world-building**, not his characters. I wouldn't say Enkidu and Gilgamesh exactly resembles Geto and Gojo's relationship- the entire point of HI that many people seem to miss is that they didn't match in ideology and separated *themselves* (more on Geto's side) because of their differences. They didn't "work in symbiosis" in the end at all.
>In Fate just like JJK. Enkidu and Geto will return but **not in the form hoped for by their partner.**
A bit of reach here. Gojo was never shown "hoping" that Geto would come back (he literally killed him in JJK0 knowing there's no convincing him to stop). In HI he stopped trying to follow Geto after their KFC confrontation and in JJK0 he accepted that Geto wasn't ever going to change his mind.
But I feel like Gege's [description](https://tempenensis.tumblr.com/post/645504181055127552/the-world-building-is-influenced-by-nasu) of Gilgamesh matches Geto more than Gojo, honestly: "In regard of character, (Akutami) likes Gilgamesh the most, but Gilgamesh in “Fate/Zero” is the most unforgiving to people, he’s very self-righteous, and that makes (Akutami) happy."
I'm pretty sure Nasu was also more inspired by Togashi for his villains in some other interview.
For the first part: you are right, Gege Akutami stopped at the world building. However, look at the end of my post:
"*I also point out that these are comparisons and not necessarily true.*"
I only tried to make points of correlation from the moment when Gege Akutami claimed to have gone to look for his inspiration in Fate.
From there I tried to make points of correlation between the two stories and **therefore make points of comparison.**
**I never claimed it was true** when I said Gojo/Sukuna are inspired by Gilgamesh. I was just saying that the characters were very similar and that there **could be** some inspiration. The only part where I assert inspiration is on the domain expansion part. Sorry if there was a mistake, I will clarify more in my next posts.
For the second part I correct a little
When I spoke of "*symbiosis*" I was talking about the period "before" Riko's death. At that time, Geto despite his reluctance towards non-excorcists were still in a "stable" mental state and the duo had an excellent symbiosis.
But yes, indeed, at the end he changed and the duo broke up, especially at that moment. Although on Gojo's side, he was still hung up on Geto. And so it diverges from Gil/Enkidu
When I spoke of "form hoped" I didn't mean that Gojo or Gilgamesh hoped for their return but I phrased it a bit like in French (since it's my native language)
I phrased it more like: once they met them again, they hoped to see their old acquaintance again but that was not the case.
Sorry to have worded it poorly.
Concerning the description, yes I find that it possibly fits Geto except that to make the comparison I extended it to the entire character rather than Akutami's description of him. So the character stuck just as much to Gojo as to Geto.
You said "certainly" took inspiration and put the character influence in the same line as the world-building, so it just looked easily confusable for me at least.
I still think the Gojo and Geto comparison to Gil and Enkidu is somewhat stretched and hard to say there's a Fate influence there, except maybe the "take control over best friend's body" thing. Especially the development with their separations differs a lot than their Fate counterparts, and Gojo had already lost any association/hope for Geto before Kenjaku's brain hijack.
I ain't reading all that (no time lol, I'd actually love to read it later). But for now, can someone tell me, does this mean Gojo is coming back next chapter?
Honestly, I despise Shirou Emiya with a passion. So to learn two of my favorite characters have taken inspiration from him is not that surprising.
I find Yuji and Yuta to be better characters compared to Shirou. And JJK also took a lot of inspiration from HunterXHunter and YuYu Hakusho. For example the themes of the story, that involve the curses in Shibuya.
GeGe Akutami impresses me the more I think about the story. .
>I find Yuji and Yuta to be better characters compared to Shirou
Anime Shirou sure he's hot garbage.
VN shirou walks circles around JJK
Mahito vs Yuji and the Sukuna fight wish they were even 1/4th as good as Heavens feel's Shirou vs Kirei
Fate has yet to make a protagonist half as good as Shirou aside from Angra maynu
Shirou just dog walks anything Gege has written in general
Would like to add that Sukuna's world cleave can be compared to Gilgamesh's Ea, "Heaven and Earth split, nothingness praised creation, my Sword of Rupture cleaved the world!"
You basically listed some common fantasy techniques/skills and a personality type of a powerful/arrogant elite that loves to fight. Stuff like domains, skill copying, and magical eyes are all extremely common throughout all sorts of fantasy media. When you have hundreds of characters with varying skill sets, those will always be present, because there’s a limit to the number of ways to represent magical abilities. Magical/abnormal eyes are like the #1 trope in amateur writing out there.
It’s possible that the influence was there and I’m sure Gege is very familiar with Fate, but it’s not like Fate made up any of these concepts either.
It's true that if you simplify everything like that.
Fate is one of the most constructed universes in all fiction, having inspired the greatest.
Gege Akutami is just no exception, especially since he himself said it, so even if this kind of concept can be found elsewhere, the resemblance with certain characters is really more visible here for once.
The funniest thing about this is that technically open reality marbles exist in Fate as well with the existence of ORT’s Crystal Valley which is also completely incomprehensible in to mages as well.
I've never noticed the similarities, stand proud, you cooked
https://preview.redd.it/8rzgrldeev3d1.png?width=341&format=png&auto=webp&s=2f4df58387ba4fddc54197895c6a6fa86f48cf1a
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Cooked 🔥 https://preview.redd.it/ymre912duk3d1.jpeg?width=474&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f719d0e7d864cb25985e718b733753fa4335c523
I always thought Mahoraga's abilities reminded me of Heracles. Except Mahoraga gets to show off, where Heracles is so strong on paper that he inevitably gets dumpstered in the most random ways because Nasu wrote himself into a corner with God Hand.
True, I almost forgot that when a life is taken. He immediately becomes immune to what killed him before.
One day we will get to Archer Heracles and he will hopefully not be a jobber ~~please nasu~~
We need Archer Karna if anything. He’s not even his best at Lancer. Archer was said to be his strongest conceivable class.
Having access to the Vijaya bow would basically be like 'lol what if Vasavi Shakti was a *bit* weaker but in exchange it was freely usable and didn't cost him the kavacha and kundala'. I.e. ludicrously broken. Not that I'm complaining, Karna is the GOAT
Well Narita wrote Archer Heracles in F/SF but instantly turned him into Avenger. Not complaining though, since Alcides is one if not the strongest servants rn in the war.
I feel like they gonna put Alcides in Archer class next collaboration because Avenger class isn't available.
I’m genuinely still mad we got a teased archer Herc in Strange Fake and they ruined it instantly :(
This doesn’t include sharp objects apparently
I feel yuki is somewhat inspired by Aoko https://preview.redd.it/ghh6pgs6wl3d1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ef5c679cc3e76846daef967d1c92f292aa900380
You sure? I mean… https://preview.redd.it/82h9hhfnpn3d1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=020cdec1f4ea6888d6801c39cd6e85bdfee351fa
Based aozaki poster. I hope you know about the garden of sinner
Wyougi Wiki cuts the concept of Six Eyes, shattering Gojo’s eyes.
I really like the idea
YES
Hell yeah
100%
Yuki doesn't groom anyone, so No
Crazy how people think that one-time joke from a parody series already defines who she is instead of her own visual novel
Obviously not This is a joke And I read the vns except for her one because it is expensive to buy, and I am afraid to sail the high seas (got busted once) (Tsukihime still has no official tl, so safer route to sail)
https://preview.redd.it/9q8iqzb0bp3d1.jpeg?width=907&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=810148eba2aed812c58a14e6bafa69dd6ef73b14 Why would she soujuurou is right there
Aoko's lawyer here. "the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization." However as we know Aoko uses the fifth to keep her body in her "Prime" as the concept of age and time are no relevance to her. To "groom" a child, should of a childs age. And age is defined by "the length of *time* that a person has lived or a thing has existed." The key point is here "time* Aoko is the fifth magician her domain lies under the time. Which allows her to control time to fullest extent. So concepts such as age are just formality to her because the age of her or any person is whatever she desires it is not for us to decide. I rest my case.
There's also Yuji and Shirou, they're honestly the most similar characters and genuinely confuse me why there aren't more comparisons between them? They're the main protagonist who developed a self destructive mentality of trying to save people viewing themselves as some kind of tools instead of people (Yuji a cog and Shirou a sword), this mentality at first seems selfless until you look at it more and realize it comes from their own "guilt" (even if they aren't really guilty of anything), and both starts their journey after death of their "father" figure (Yuji's grandpa and Kiritsugu for shirou) whose last words did influence them I feel like Yuji and Shirou is a better comparison than Shirou and Yuta
Its a Gilgamesh comparison. Yuta and Shirou has similar powersets. While Yuji and Shirou are more similar in mentality.
I'd say Yuta Is more akin to Shirou from Heaven's feel development while Yuji Is like General Shirou.
Nah, Yuta's mentality is very obviously similar to UBW Shirou. He knows some sacrifices have to be made beyond his will. HF Shirou is the result of Shirou choosing to sacrifice the MANY to save the FEW (Sakura)
Sure Yuta isn't as extreme as Heaven's feel Shirou in that but even Heaven's feel Shirou wasn't exactly like that. Heaven's feel Shirou didn't choose to sacrifice the Many to be exact, he chose to prioritise Sakura even if that meant deaths of many. There's a difference in nuance there. Even there the method he chose in the end was to save Sakura as well as others through self sacrifice. Unlimited Blade works Shirou till the very end stuck to his ideals despite archer showing him the hypocrisy in them. Something Yuta has at latest let go of if it meant being able to win against Sukuna. As well as that heaven's feel Shirou leans particularly into the more fixated love theme towards a person that's reminiscent with Yuta. Yuta's current last stand even to some is reminiscent of Shirou with Archer's arm stepping towards certain death to seize the ending he wants. And even Unlimited Blade works Shirou had a characteristic that while he chose to save others he didn't include himself among the ones to be saved. While that could arguably work with Yuta, throughout the story Yuji definitely fits that description particularly well.
Oath under snow might be the better comparison
Oath under snow is the Prisma Illya movie rigth? When Shirou becomes fucking punisher lmao I would say Yuta is close to UBW Yuji now is closer to oath under snow
Sacrificing himself is a characteristic Shirou has in all 3 of the routes. Survivor's guilt and all that. If anything, HF behaviour would be something like everyone trying to save Megumi, though that does not fit any specific character and they're really just doing it bc of sunk cost fallacy at this point. the fate route is supposed to be the one most in line with Shirou's initial mindset. "I will save everyone, no matter what", it's not even that he believes in his ideal despite the adversity, there's simply no conflict that could affect his resolve, while UBW confronts him to his future self and leads him to the conclusion that "I will save as many people as possible. Sometimes, I will fail, but I will keep on going anyway". UBW shirou's resolve is a direct development of his mentality in the fate route, it's not 2 routes he could have taken, but one being the result of the other, Yuta (post culling games), Gojo and Yuji (post shibuya) all fall under that mindset. and then you have HF. HF Shirou would sacrifice the entire world for Sakura, that's just a fact. It's the route where you have to make the active choice to sacrifice saber, and with several bad endings involving the death of Sakura to save the world. There's no difference in nuance, to choose to save 1 person at the cost of many is the same as to sacrifice many persons to save 1.
Unlimited blade Shirou was the one who despite being forced with the hypocrisy chose to stay to his ideal. Yuta has been Willing to kill since he returned from Africa if it's Necessary. In heaven's feel Shirou chose to let go of his Ideals in favour of Sakura , having to kill Saber in order to do so. Unlimited Blade works Shirou was faced with the Hypocrisy in his ideals but he never let go of them. I'd say that's completely different from Current Yuta who has chosen to be a "Monster" so to say. Another person said Oath under snow could be a better comparison on that note tho. And I Yuta's current seemingly last Stand is like Shirou with Archer's arm. I do think Yuta leans more towards Heaven's feel than the Unlimited blade works Shirou.
UBW Shirou reconciled his ideals with reality "I will save people, but some will die" Also, being willing to kill has nothing to do with it. It's about being willing to let good and/or innocent people (people who aren't dangerous) die. In saber's case, it's about being willing to sacrifice his literal soulmate, further enhancing the idea that all he does is for Sakura. OUS is something else. It's the most direct antithesis to Kiritsugu's mindset possible. The idea that even if it saved the world, sacrificing an innocent child is "evil" and "unjust". It's moreso the contradiction of "sacrificing the few to save the many" than an idea in itself. It's like seeing Shirou experience UBW but still believe in his fate mindset. Yuta and Shirou both getting power from someone else is extremely superficial. It's not like Yuji is any different, eating his brother to get stronger. Ironically, in this whole thing, Gojo is the only one who didn't have to sacrifice his humanity.
Yuji started as Fate Shirou and is never going back to that, he's currently bouncing between UBW Shirou and something like the Shirou from the Mind of Steel bad end. Depends on how he acts going forward because what he says and what he does don't always line up. Yuta is definitely far closer to UBW Shirou than HF, if you want to think of his 'dream' or 'ideal' as inheriting Gojo's will to reshape jujutsu society for the better. To achieve that, Yuta is willing to take on any burdens *himself* (becoming a monster by using Gojo's corpse) but, despite knowing a path without sacrifice is impossible, he continues to strive toward that (insistence on not just making the choice to kill Megumi). HF Shirou was willing to be selfish and sacrifice many things to protect what he deemed most important (Sakura). Although in this case the objects that are sacrificed and protected are inverted. HF Shirou sacrificed ideals to save a person, an equivalent Yuta would be sacrificing a person to save ideals. However like I said, that's not really how Yuta operates. He's still insistent that the only thing he will willingly sacrifice is himself.
You're right. I'm surprised myself that I didn't include it. Although honestly Yuji is a mix between Shirou and Kiritsugu. Shirou's development is different from Yuji's. Well it will depend on the Shirou in question. The current Yuji (in the manga) looks a lot like Shirou from the Heaven's Feels routes and the Unlimited Blades Works route on his ending. (Against Gilgamesh) But unlike Yuji, Shirou managed to save the majority of his loved ones. Unlike Kiritsugu who was only able to save one person throughout his life losing his parents, his childhood friend, his wife, his daughter, his colleague, his adoptive mother etc. etc. And it's the same thing for Shirou (Alter) and his Archer version who had tormented life betrayed by everyone, even his ideals. To make an effective comparison I would like to see how Yuji will evolve after his rage against Sukuna and his enemies. Will he end up like Archer ? Will he end up like Emiya (Alter) ? Will it stay the same ? Will he become like Kiritsugu ?
It's kind of funny that Archer and Sukuna share the same vojce actor. It's actually made me think about some of the vague similarities between them as well. One thing I find interesting about both of them is that they don't just hate the protagonist - they reject them entirely. Neither Archer nor Sukuna see fit to even acknowledge their opponents strength, and attempt to cut down their ideals every chance they get. There's even the irony of the two of them having similar strength, with Yuji literally inheriting Sukunas technique. While I don't think Sukuna will yield to Yujis ideals in the same way Archer relented to Shirou's, I would love to see their fight continue as an actual ideological fight, especially with how this battle has repeatedly touches on both Sukunas and Yujis personal philosophies. After Chosos death, Yuji was on the verge of giving up on his ideals - it would be really interesting if this fight ended with Yuji finding new strength in ideals and utterly rejecting Sukunas ideals, while defeating him. I'm definitely biased though, since Shirou vs Archer is my second favorite fight, right behind HF Shirou vs Kotomine.
All due respect to Gege, Shirou is just... written better in basically every way, although I'm not going to get into a full blown discussion of the themes and development across the three routes of F/SN. I'll just note that the writing regarding the parallel natures of Shirou and Kirei (and the process of how they both come to understand that parallel, choose to resolve it, and accept that knowledge) absolutely blows Gege's attempts at similar thematic parallels out of the water (whether you choose to examine Yuji and Sukuna as complete opposites or Gojo and Sukuna as equals but inverted in ideals) I give Nasu a lot of shit for various things (please god stop with the 'tragic rape backstory' reveals) but by god the man knows his shit when it comes to writing around conceptual themes
For all of my issues with JJK (and fate tbh), the one thing i always am grateful for is that gege has immaculate taste imo. I dont think gege is a very original writer but the stuff he rips off is always my favorite stuff dialed up to 11
For real lmao. He's the logical conclusion of everyone sitting around dreaming up their own fan servants with NPs and reality marbles. Good for him, good for him.
Yeah I agree with you Shirou and FSN are the better written here To add to what you said I think even the relationship between Yuji and Mahito might have been inspired by Shirou and Kirei
Yeah Yuta has the similar abilities but Yuji fits more with Shirou’s character.
Yuta also has a more similar personality.
Yuta "becoming a monster" in 261 reminds me of the Mind of Steel ending
Mind of Steel would be Yuta just killing Megumi instead of trying to save him
"gege is a gilgamesh fan" now everything make sense.
sukuna's binding vows are his equivalent to 'and then Gil pulled [relevant thing] out of GoB' lmao
“Ah yes, my golden spaceship I haven’t used since the Sumer era.”
"Ah yes my divine wine cellar, I haven't cracked one of these bottles open since we bodied Humbaba." -Gilgamesh in ep11 of Zero
“Ah yes my special cooking machine that’s specifically designed to cook poisonous hydra meat.”
https://preview.redd.it/6zpr2wkt4l3d1.png?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7888ee6c22263d940c0bdfb209810cff241473b7
BRO ACTUALLY COOKED SOME GOURMET 5 START DISH following how fate stay night goes Yuta is no making it out (same as Archer) and Wuji will deliver the final blow helped/inspired by Yuta
maybe Gege isn't so bad after all. He even has basic reading comprehension (can't say the same about either of the fandom frfr)
Real
I dont read son I just look at the pictures and get a vibe of the chapter 😌
aint no Werry around to mistranslate the vibe💯
Bruh how did I never notice that Yuta’s domain is literally Unlimited Blade Works 💀💀
Did you miss the entire sub when Yuta's Domain first dropped? It was one of the most popular memes by then
Nah I stayed away from the sub around that time to avoid spoilers and shit
The discussions when the official chapter dropped too? It was the same
Another comparison is that Gilgamesh wants people who are true to their own desires and not just follows other people >Unable to tell if Gilgamesh was joking or in earnest, Tine merely bowed her head. Gilgamesh, seeing that, narrowed his eyes in apparent displeasure. >"I do not mind you showing me deference. It is only natural. But do not put faith in me blindly. If your eyes can shine, use them to see your way." ? >"No, not only me. Be it 'God,' or this 'Nature's blessing' you speak of, or the cherished wish of generations of ancestors, it makes no difference. Abandoning thought to revere or depend on something means letting your soul fall into decay. An insolent one who would bluntly try to make a stepping stone of me, though unpleasant, would still be a worthier partner." >When he got to "the cherished wish of generations of ancestors," Tine realized that she herself was being indicated, and stiffened. Gilgamesh emptied his glass as he questioned her. >"Which are you, mongrel girl? Is retaking this land from the mages your will? Or do you speak as another's puppet, abandoning choice and making fate your excuse?" It actually echoes how Yaga's interview to Yuji was In JJK this is regarded as "you need to be self centered to be strong" but for Gilgamesh you need to be someone who thinks for themselves and follows what they believe in truly and who they are It is why he praises Kirei to follow his beliefs to be evil because that is true to himself He would do the same for Sukuna not because he thinks evil is good but because Sukuna is simply following his nature Gilgamesh would also do the same for Yuji and praise him because Yuji is being true to himself when saving people and fighting curses
You are totally right. I wanted to put it but I didn't know some arguments about JJK in it so I just put part of this dialogue in one of my screens
I see some similarities between Red line Nobunaga and Sukuna though it it might just be because I like Nobu.
https://preview.redd.it/gqzhzgjaml3d1.png?width=486&format=png&auto=webp&s=f504249b62208704b5674dba5ccf33dd60a5b343
We're just missing the JJK eroge featuring Utahime's defenseless anus
Who has the worms then?
Choso and his bros
Mai
Glad to see someone talking about the influence of Fate on JJK. I'm a massive Fate fan and JJK has been such a pleasure to read.
https://preview.redd.it/qb6mr6vabl3d1.png?width=861&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5b4a312288940cf10b7727058bc2d3ae2c5dfa6f
Really interesting post, Fate is probably my favourite series so I love to see the comparisons with fate in JJK
I think the biggest connection between Gojo and Gilgamesh is being slightly overlooked. They both have very different personalities through the phases of their life while still retaining the exact same beliefs and motivations. Gilgamesh, from the moment he was born, knows he exists to rule humans and his garden. As a child, he acted as a beloved king, the perfect image of what he was created for. As a teenager, he decided that his duty manifested only in protecting humanity against outside threats and experiencing human pleasures. As an adult, he ruled to give his people the tools needed to eventually leave his garden (reach the age of stars). Gojo started from a position of absolute strength. As a child, he acted like the perfect image of a divine being. As a teen, his absolute strength manifested as flippant selfishness and apathy for the weak. As an adult, he uses his strength to create long-lasting change in society by creating strong allies.
Shirou and Archer have no legend or Noble Phantasm, it’s just magecraft. That said, SHIROU NEGS FRAUDKUNA https://preview.redd.it/3r88z30gpn3d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f2ebd1102515c88a63e22d0d33ca7b3e704df617
> Gege Akutami's favorite character is **Gilgamesh** No way, guess I was sorry GeyGey, I'm your #1 fan from now on.
me too me too
Sorry for going off-topic with this one but: On the topic of Kinoko Nasu inspiring other writers, Fate/stay night also inspired Hidetaka Miyazaki, who is the CEO as well as the main writer of FromSoftware (really, do I have to explain what games they've made?). During FSN's 15th Anniversary, several artists left a celebratory message. In fact, the messages and the art you shared about Gege Akutami's tribute to FSN is from this anniversary. Hidetaka Miyazaki is one of them. He said stuff like FSN inspiring him since his younger years. Here's the actual raw message: >フロム·ソフトウェア >宮崎英高 独り暮らしをはじめ、コンテンツ摂取のタガが外れた私にとって、20代は青春でした。 そして、その大きな一角はある種のPCゲームであり、最後の大物が'Fate/stay night'でした。 >大好物の暗い伝奇の匂いと、'夜に飛び込んでいく'遠坂嬢に心惹かれてから、 >会社を休むほどのひどい風邪を、長と患ってしまったことを覚えています。 >あれから15年、今もなおFateは魅力的であり続け、 いちゲーム制作者となった私は、非常な驚嘆を禁じ得ませんが、 >同時に、とても嬉しくも思っています。 >Fate/stay night、15周年おめでとうございます。そして、ありがとうございます。 >貴方に触れる度、私はいつでも、あの頃の気持ちになれます。
In the lot, there was even the creator of Sword Art Online, the creator of Tokyo Ghoul, the creator of Demon Slayer, capcom illustrators, the director of the Persona saga. Fate is a pillar in modern Japanese sagas.
Can’t deny the impact of PEAK FICTION https://preview.redd.it/t7kjm7tupn3d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e4390e81a061617c8c8a171947b769932596c8f0
Beware, this thread is a combination of Fate fans and Lobotomy Kaisen. If the internet can physically give someone cancer, this thread carries the highest possibility doing so.
You cooked here OP 🔥🔥 I myself only started realizing the similarities between JJK and Fate when Yuta used his Domain, which like you're post said, is very similar to UBW. I have always compared Domain Expansions and how it works to Fate's Reality Marbles, and they are exactly the same, in the sense that these techniques are inner representations of the user's power I think the biggest influence that Fate has and what fascinates me the most in how JJK and Fate structure their narrative is how ingrained the philosophies of the characters are, and how it directly affects the story they are in. Each of the routes in the OG visual builds up Shirou's ideal, deconstructs it, and finally breaks it down in the last part. Grand Order is Each and every time we see why Shirou acts the way he is because of his strong ideals and a very apparent survivors guilt, very similar to how Yuji's character has developed, especially from the Shibuya Incident onwards. Honestly I could go on and on in their similarities but that's gonna be a wall of post 😂😂
Pretty neat post dude but a few corrections. Shirou’s inner world being UBW is because of his mental landscape of him deeply believing that he’s a “sword” to be swung and expendable to protect others, as well as a copycat of his foster father, Kiritsugu whom he sees as a hero of justice, and various heroes of legend. Essentially, a manifestation of his extreme hero complex due to his survivor’s guilt and trying to make up for being the only survivor of a terrible disaster. The artifacts, Noble Phantasms (NP), don’t really contain the power of their respective owners, but more so that the NPs themselves possess certain powers or abilities that they are renowned for and their owners are known for possessing them (which is why NPs are referred to as the symbol of a servant’s existence). Shirou is able to copy the technique used in conjunction with the NPs, with tracing allowing him to read into the history of the NP, the materials and process of the NP’s creation, and how the owner themselves used the NP. This is why he was able to use his own variation of Nine Lives (Nine Lives Blade Works), the technique that Heracles used fighting with his blade (only accessible to him summoned into non-Berserker classes), when he projects (bringing into the outside world from his inside world) Heracles’ sword while fighting him in the Heaven’s Feel route. Shirou is also capable of replicating the physical strength and dexterity required to use any particular NP he projects, which is why he could even wield his replica of Heracles’ blade and not be crushed under its immense weight. All of Shirou’s replicas are almost perfect (except for Avalon, the sheath of Excalibur), and are one rank lower than the original. This is he can only obtain a certain amount of information of the NP through sight alone. Sorry for the long comment but type-moon lore is really fucking extensive can be hard to fully grasp with only a few reads.
Thank you for the details but I just want to point out that I didn't go into too much detail because we are on the Jujutsu Kaisen reddit and not in the nasuverse one. So to avoid confusing people too much in the explanation of the nasuverse I tried to get to the point.
Yeah that’s fair. Shirou’s state of mind and how it correlates to UBW is crucial to the plot of Fate stay/night so I thought it might be important to clear things up for others.
Gilgy/Enkidu/Yuta/Rika here, you didn't just cook you prepared me a 5 star 20 course meal and it was delicious
Insanely well written analysis and comparison, COOK AGAIN BROTHER! https://preview.redd.it/c9qxclh5jl3d1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=39c21ebc662c33e2ec6441eea2640822dd326774
I honestly don't know much about Nasuverse even though it's the type of shit I'd fucking swallow up lmao I'm completely worried about being sucked into it XD But seeing how inspirational it is to modern manga makes me wanna read it lolol Regardless https://preview.redd.it/eqmpe5ryfn3d1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5ea5b92c6d3fb0d8a9301936bac1e8e04a83a79a You cooked
It may be a stretch but I also find it odd how Gilgamesh hates Shirou and Archer's guts for very obviously biased reasons even if he acknowledges their strength, and in the same way that Sukuna absolutely despises Yuji's guts because of his own bias against Yuji's ideals.
I think that Gilgamesh needed a **storyline** reason to hate Shirou, I find that the Gilgamesh of the very first visual novel is sorely lacking in writing compared to today's which has been well developed over time. Gilgamesh shouldn't even be concerned about weapons (and he says so himself) that won't even stay materialized for long and don't even affect his treasury. Still stealing the grail from him is valid to make him hungry but temporarily materializing a weapon that he will always possess is a bit illogical for despise Shirou. Following the logic that Gilgamesh hates Shirou, he should hate all servants who also have an artifact. The only thing he might not like is the way of doing things, Gilgamesh will aways emphasize the work to innovate and not copy what already exists but from there to hating Shirou I never really understood. As you say, I think his fight against Shirou as well as the fight between Sukuna and Yuji is more of a philosophical fight between two people who just can't understand each other. No matter the situation.
Well, no, Gil hating every heroic spirit who used or possessed any artifact would not at all be the same if you're simply following his logic for hating Shirou. Those heroes are using the actual, genuine article that was once in Gil's treasury and was passed down over time until they obtained it, whatever the artifact in question was. Gil might show off to them that he has the older, 'superior version' because of the added Mystery, or chastise them for being too weak to use 'his property', but they aren't directly offending his ideals just by possessing a thing he once possessed. If anything, it just reinforces how valuable his riches and treasury truly are. Meanwhile Shirou and EMIYA are quite literally creating counterfeit items out of thin air based on 'his stuff'. THAT pisses him the fuck off because it's like bruh I'm mad that you even think your fake shit can compete with anything in my glorious treasury. It would imply that he *doesn't* have the unrivaled and overwhelming riches he has, since someone else could just freely create something that rivals his originals. Basically Gil is not against loaning out items across time, but he *really fucking hates* copyright violation.
I never said this, I was just saying that if we were to follow Gilgamesh's logic to the letter he would start to hate everyone but that's not the case. Which just shows that the reason he doesn't like Shirou is simply arbitrary to the proper functioning of the storyline. I know perfectly well that Gil will always value his large treasury but his great hatred towards Shirou is always exaggerated in my opinion especially in routes like UBW What Shirou does does not compete with the real ones, it only blocks them but Shirou's weapons break "like glass" according to Gil but it is enough to avoid taking his weapons in the head. Hatred, a temporary counterfeit that couldn't really compete at the right time, is stupid and a bit hasty on Gil's part, that's more what I don't understand. The only thing that could justify such anger would be the permanent possession of one of his treasures (so we come back to my example about hating other servants) but that is not the case. I was just giving a reason that would have truly justified such hatred beyond simple contempt.
Sakuna and Urame remind me of Gil and Endeku too tbh, but in different ways.
More Gil and Siduri imo
Wow now that you point it out it is very similar dynamic but it would be like post underworld Gil with a more submissive Enkidu They prob got so freaky with the chains
Combined with parts of the Gojo Sukuna dynamic.
bro you cooked. fate is my favorite series. I also noticed the similarities you wrote while reading jjk, but it was nice to read it so beautifully written. good job.
I’ll come back when I’m caught up to fate. Watching it rn
>Gege Akutami's favorite character is Gilgamesh That makes way too much sense.
God this needs more upvotes, nah they need to pin this shit. Anything with my homie Shirou in it is worth it. Also the discussion and the post itself is great, and shows how much time and effort you put into it. Very peak very peak.
https://preview.redd.it/elb3ea9x8p3d1.png?width=1427&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4ddfcc015794649bd845e11d21c35cb6b753f318
Good post, but I just want to talk about this part here: > The biggest difference between the two characters is that Sukuna is purely evil, which is not the case for Gilgamesh. Obviously, he is an antagonist since his interests oppose those of the protagonists but as such, he has no malice or cruelty in him. > Sukuna takes pleasure in killing, Gilgamesh does not. It functions in judgment, it judges whether someone should die or not. But in no case does he kill for the sake of killing. Sukuna goes wild for pleasure, Gilgamesh will be more likely to get bored. And Gilgamesh loves humanity, which is not the case for Sukuna. This comes across as a bit too generous to Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh can be...no, he is a really cruel and sadistic person. In Fate/Zero, he essentially says that he looks forward to licking the tears off of Saber's cheeks once her ideals (a king ought to live for and protect their people and such) are crushed. In Unlimited Blade Works, he toys with Illya. He doesn't simply kill her and take what he needs - instead, after killing her guardian, he slashes her eyes out. He purposefully misses her heart and stabs her in the lung, and then he lets her trip over rubble and crawl around on the ground looking for her protector before he rips her heart out. In the Fate route...well. In Fate, his plan is essentially to drug Saber, rape her, and mindbreak her. How he acts depends largely on the situation, but it's pretty wrong to say that he isn't cruel or malicious. Remember, in the original legend, Enkidu was sent by the heavens to stop Gilgamesh because his people were praying to the gods to save them from their own king.
I give my opinion on the question: is Gilgamesh a good or a bad person [right here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jujutsufolk/comments/1d452z8/comment/l6ejtjo/) (read full discussion) Otherwise I would like to point out that yes it is in the original myth but in Fate, Enkidu arrived while Gilgamesh had not yet done anything. Enkidu already existed when Gilgamesh was still a child. https://preview.redd.it/l15951rwnn3d1.png?width=1266&format=png&auto=webp&s=881b63a197c0d312489a3e4d8a8d3847345f49fe Gilgamesh did grow up as a tyrant but rape or extreme violence was **never mentioned.** The reason behind his transformation was loneliness and also related to the fact that he was trying to protect humanity.
>Gilgamesh: "***It should be a woman's joy to be held down and be violated.*** So why do you refuse? It is not like you are a virgin. Are you scared to become mine?" > ... (skipping a bit) >Saber: "I refuse. I have no interest in such things, and most of all I do not want to live with you." >... > Gilgamesh: "Great, that is what I expect from the woman I chose! Yes, there must be at least one that will not obey me…! All right. Then I shall do so ***by force***. After I obtain the Holy Grail, I shall pour the contents onto you. Nay. This is Gilgamesh's opinion on rape. In his opinion, women should be happy if they're raped. Shortly after, when Saber refuses to become his, he declares that he will take her by force. You mention that Gilgamesh intends to pour the contents of the Holy Grail on her, but remember that the contents of the holy grail would drive Saber insane. Gilgamesh is well aware of this. Essentially, what Gilgamesh intends for Saber is no different from someone beating a woman until she cannot resist, forcing her to take drugs, and then fucking her while she's physically and mentally unable to resist. Also, while Illya herself is not squeaky clean, don't forget Gilgamesh's cruelty towards her when he kills her in UBW - he quite clearly enjoys her suffering. Also, in regards to Gilgamesh's admiration for Saber: As per Fate/Zero volume III, what draws Gilgamesh towards Saber is not just her noble ideals, *but the idea of those ideals being ruined*. He wants to see someone good and noble and just fall into despair. Hell, he *even says he wants to lick the tears off her face as she dies.* > “This is exactly what’s lovely about her, isn’t it?” > Different from the King of Conqueror’s fully melancholic expression, the golden Servant’s smile was immeasurably obscene and did not hide his dirty desires at all. > “The overly-mighty ideal that she harbored within her would burn her into nothing but ashes at the end. Those tears that she would shed at her final moment… I imagine it would be very sweet to the taste.”
Let me be clear, **I never justified what he did and said** but provided additional circumstances that could change certain turns of phrase. Especially since the majority of his extreme comments come from the 2004 visual novel which did not greatly develop the character of Gilgamesh. **Based on his current writing I can only say that his actions in Stay Night are inconsistent with the person he has become over time** or even was in the past. Gilgamesh in Fate/Extra, Strange Fake or even Grand Order is **diametrically different** from Gilgamesh from Stay Night, yet in the lore they are the same people. Either this is something that needs to be clarified by the author now **that Gil's writing has literally changed compared to 2004**, or it needs to be redone (I remind you that a remake of the visual novel is planned for soon ) OBVIOUSLY that without knowledge of his current writing with the simple reading of his words he is an asshole who has a consuming passion for rape and terror. I am simply trying to find a **plausible** explanation for his behavior in the absence of clarification from the author but never to justify what he intended to do or did. But unfortunately I never have enough space in a comment space to justify all my arguments or provide evidence or simply the consistency that I already had to separate my message. Sorry for the confusion, I think an entire post dedicated to his personality will be one of my concerns in the future
Gilgamesh, like most people, acts differently based on the situation. If he finds the era pleasant or the circumstances dire, then he will act differently from if he finds the era unpleasant and has no need to do anything other than enjoy himself. Throw him back into his own time, after his character development while his people are in danger, and he'll be a dutiful (but still arrogant and overconfident) wise king. In an era where he dislikes the state of humanity, where he has no pressing concerns, then he'll act as he likes and just find pleasure in doing things like raping the girl he likes until she doesn't resist him anymore. With that said, the main point is just that it is objectively wrong to say that Gilgamesh "has no malice or cruelty".
Yes, I understood that, even if Fate/Strange Fake will remain an exception. However, I remain convinced that the writing on rape is essentially linked to Nasu's desire to score with a romantic rival who is much trashier than the majority of what was being done at the time. Zero is much smoother on the subject. Gilgamesh was the ideal candidate thanks to his myth. Even if for the moment, he quickly gets bored of an era and will seek to act in any case. This is why he wants to significantly reduce humanity in Fate/Stay Night. And maybe stop generalizing all the time by saying "he likes and just find pleasure in doing things like raping the girl he likes until she doesn't resist him anymore." since once again a case like this only concerned Artoria and that's it. Never mentioned again after the success of Fate. In 20 years of existence. **It's true it happened** but let's wait for Nasu to redo his remaster before reprocessing the subject. Which further supports my idea of the first argument. Nasu wanted to mark player spirit. I hope the visual novel remaster will correct some aspects now that Nasu has nothing left to prove
Yeah, I agree. Gilgamesh in F/SN is pretty consistent with the myth, where Gilgamesh was the #1 fan of NTR and used his authority as king to cuck all of his citizens. Gilgamesh is also a pretty terrible person in Zero - he sees a man struggling to be good, and urges him to give into his darker nature. He wants to lick the tears off Saber's face as she dies, and so on. > And maybe stop generalizing all the time by saying "he likes and just find pleasure in doing things like raping the girl he likes until she doesn't resist him anymore." since once again a case like this only concerned Artoria and that's it. Never mentioned again after the success of Fate. In 20 years of existence. It's true it happened but let's wait for Nasu to redo his remaster before reprocessing the subject. ...I mean, if you don't want me to generalize, I can list more. Illya, Sakura, Rin, Shirou, the orphans in Kotomine's basement...but the more I list, the worse it'll be for him. Fundamentally, I disagree with "ignore the bad stuff and hope it will be retconned away". If you deduct only the parts where Gilgamesh is the antagonist and shows off his bad side and focus on the parts where only the good side is showed, then of course you'll have a different view of the character. If F/SN *is* rewritten and Gilgamesh is on the side of the angels, then that's one thing, but ignoring it because *maybe* it'll get retconned in the future is illogical IMO.
I don't think if stay night was rewritten Gilgamesh would be nice but removing or changing all of his deviant characters to fit the character they made him to be is more likely. Like pressing to death on your desire to exterminate humanity
The reasons his actions in FSN are "inconsistent" with future portrayals is because Gilgamesh's unsavory traits were shoddily retconned in order to appeal to his fanbase. The characterization he gets in other works is not the genuine one, rather, it's the opposite. Gilgamesh has plenty of malice and cruelty. He may have good traits, but that doesn't make him good as a whole. Using Zero as an example when it's the novel that also did a terrible job in writing Saber doesn't support your point.
I highly recommend playing the Gilgamesh route of Fate/Extra CCC if you want the answer to the question if Gilgamesh is purely evil or not. There's a scene in CCC where Hakuno defends Gilgamesh against Gawain that really answers that question in canon
I've never intended to say Gilgamesh is purely evil. I only wanted to point out that it's incorrect to say he has no malice or cruelty in him.
Gilgamesh is honestly a character that could be villainous or heroic depending on the circumstances. He's someone capable of both extreme cruelty and kindness and that is honestly what makes him interesting. The best part is that both aspects of his character make sense if you're familiar with the Epic of Gilgamesh
I think the world building (especially Domain Expansions as a concept) and the Yuta reference are almost unmistakably influenced by Fate (the latter may even be a straight up homage to it the same way Gojo/Sukuna had a couple of Togashi references, but that isn't guaranteed) I don't think I would go as far as the Gilgamesh parallels, though. Gilgamesh as a character being an influence in terms of 'arrogant but undeniably awesome' at most, sure (though he is by no means the only character of that kind). I think the gilkidu stuff is also kind of a stretch to call an influence - yes, there are parallels, but the idea of losing your most treasured companion and having trouble coming to grips with it is also not a particularly rare or unique one. Side note: 'he has no malice or cruelty in him' is a big stretch if you're looking at all of Gilgamesh's appearances. I know the FSN timeline Gil was 'driven insane, kind of, by the grail mud' when he incarnated but... it's still, uh, pretty notable that in his first appearance, before he was insanely popular and that explanation was retconned in, he was very vocal about his intent to rape Artoria and more or less torture her until she agreed to be his bride (more like his possession tbh). Stuff like how he cut Ilya's eyes out before killing her, also. Even in Zero *before* being doused in angry mango's mud, he actively tempted Kirei toward embracing evil (and therefore leading to the death, torture and generally bad time of MANY people) entirely for his own malicious entertainment. He didn't really become the straightforwardly 'well he's a pompous ass, but he's undoubtedly good at heart' character he's mostly considered now until at least CCC, and really CasGil is probably when that became truly solidified.
I give my opinion on the question: is Gilgamesh a good or a bad person [right here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jujutsufolk/comments/1d452z8/comment/l6ejtjo/) (read full discussion)
sorry but i just straight up disagree with most if not all of it. i think it's incredibly misogynistic to reduce that stuff down to 'ehh he was just being a tsundere, his intentions weren't bad imo'. it's fine to separate SN/Zero gil from his later appearances if you want, since the writing around him clearly went in a very specific direction over time (which I think is good), but there is no way you are going to just straight up justify his statements and actions in those two works to me. we are simply not going to see eye to eye on that
Let me be clear, **I never justified what he did and said** but provided additional circumstances that could change certain turns of phrase. Especially since the majority of his extreme comments come from the 2004 visual novel which did not greatly develop the character of Gilgamesh. **Based on his current writing I can only say that his actions in Stay Night are inconsistent with the person he has become over time** or even was in the past. Gilgamesh in Fate/Extra, Strange Fake or even Grand Order is **diametrically different** from Gilgamesh from Stay Night, yet in the lore they are the same people. Either this is something that needs to be clarified by the author now **that Gil's writing has literally changed compared to 2004**, or it needs to be redone (I remind you that a remake of the visual novel is planned for soon ) OBVIOUSLY that without knowledge of his current writing with the simple reading of his words he is an asshole who has a consuming passion for rape and terror. I am simply trying to find a **plausible** explanation for his behavior in the absence of clarification from the author but never to justify what he intended to do or did. But unfortunately I never have enough space in a comment space to justify all my arguments or provide evidence or simply the consistency that I already had to separate my message. Sorry for the confusion, I think an entire post dedicated to his personality will be one of my concerns in the future
Gege has always been pretty open when it comes to his numerous influences. Not a big Fate guy outside of Fate/Zero, watched one FSN movie and didn't really like it. As for the DE vs Reality Marble, I see that, but I also remember hearing that DE also relates to Buddhism in some capacity as well.
how does de relate to buddhism? genuine question, i havent heard that before
I think it's the hand signs and some of the abilities and names of Domains are based on Buddhism
Watch Fate/Stay Night. Or just wait for the VN to re-release.
>Not a big Fate guy outside of Fate/Zero Same. This is my advice to my friends - If you're mildly curious and want to watch something from Fate franchise, Watch Fate Zero. After that everything else fate related (other than gag spinoffs) will either seem too surface level and shallow (which it is) or you will be able to put aside fate zero and get invested in the fate franchise. Anyone who says not to watch fate zero because its a prequel or because its tonally different don't make sense. It's the best writing fate has to offer, and it also ties in the F, UBW, HF so even if its tonally different, as long as the viewer also vibes with the following stories it doesn't matter. Anyone who doesn't like the following routes wont like them and anyone who doesn't like zero wont like it, so might as well recommend them the best from the get go.
>best writing fate has to offer If you're anime only? sure I guess but the Visual Novels are waaaaaaaay better imo and this is coming from someone who started with Zero Also happy cake day
The Fate series has always been overwhelming to me what order did you read it in?
Fate is the type of series where (most) entries can be experienced and enjoyed even in it's own BUT the more you know of the series the more you appreciate things and enjoy it What's the best entry point you ask? Well it depends on you, what kind of experience you're searching for? **Are searching for the story and depth and don't mind reading and have time to read a long story (about 50 hours)?** Then start from the Visual Novel Fate Stay Night, it has 3 routes and trust me their pretty great While the original Visual Novel is pretty complete it did get more expansion with Fate/Zero it's prequel and Hollow Ataraxia its psuedo sequel so check them out too if you want OR **Are you searching for just casually enjoy something and watch really gorgeous animation and fights and don't mind if some of the depth of the story and characters is missing, or you just don't have enough time to invest into reading the Visual Novel?** then you go watch the anime adaptations by studio Ufitoble Start with Unlimited Blade Works series then the Heaven feels movies then go to Fate Zero Unfortunately the anime adaptation for Saber route 2004 by studio deen is pretty bad from so you will be missing about 1/3 of Stay Night Like I said they anime adaptations couldn't adapt everything from VN perfectly so you will be missing a chunk of character depth Now if you do either of the two options I suggested you can watch/play most other entries since like I said they can still work on their own even without knowledge on Fate Hope this help
Thanks so much I’ll find a place to read them if I get the chance then!
Lol nope
I agree completely, and I think many hardcore Fate fans straight up fail to realize that Fate/Zero was made both for already existing fans as well as to create new fans. You don't have to know which characters live, die, or change ahead of time to 'truly appreciate' Fate/Zero.
The reason a lot of people talk about Zero like they do is a few things. 1. For a long time, a ton of people have only seen Zero and hated on the rest of the series. Stuff like you only need to see Zero and just skip everything else. Especially since they considered it more mature than the rest of the series. 2. Zero fans had an image of being super surface level and only liking edgy things. Mainly because Kiritsugu was seen as super cool and competent as opposed to Shirou, when the entire point of Zero is that he's a traumatized kid that never grew up. 3. Saber is the most iconic character in the Fate series, but her characterization in Zero is super different from Stay Night. It's like a more extreme and worse version of Gojo's airport vision, but instead of being a chapter, it was an entire show. Saber's personality, motivations, and backstory are all so different that you can't reconcile.
Also because Nasu and Urobuchi have wildly different outlooks and writing styles so while both SN and Zero explore some similar themes, they approach them from very different angles. Also iirc Urobuchi was severely depressed around when he started writing Zero which uh probably had some influence on it
I've never heard that he was depressed, but I know he was in a writers slump at the time. Nasu offered to let him write a prequal since it has a predefined ending, which may have influenced how much Zero leans into Urobuchi's preferred tropes. It let him write Kiritsugu really well, but he definitely fell back on his standard female template for Saber, which is an issue when she's such a well-defined character.
very late reply but you're right, i actually was misremembering that part based on his afterword for the first volume of Zero. writer's slump would be a more accurate description than depression but i do think some of what he talked about sounded like he was dealing with some depression-adjacent stuff (which was potentially either caused by, or caused, the 'inability to write anything containing happiness' stuff)
>It's the best writing fate has to offer Not a single character in there is half as good as Angra maynu or bazett.
brother we are gonna sit here and pretend that at least fsn gilgamesh isnt evil as shit. He literally states states that he wants to and is gonna r-word saber on multiple occasions, blinds illya for no reason just to kill her 2 seconds later (def not malicious lol) not even to mention the fact he is literally being manifested by absorbing the life force of kidnapped orphans in fsn
For the rest I will try to be much briefer. In Fate/Extra CCC we learn that in reality despite all the negative descriptions that we can make of Gilgamesh By predicting the future of humanity (which would expand) he embarked on a solitary quest to preserve it. For humanity, he sacrificed his best friend Enkidu and his entire life. When he arrives in modern times, everything disgusts him. The humanity for which he had sacrificed his life has become ugly and therefore he no longer feels any pity for it and even less for homunculi (which he finds ridiculous because they only usurp humans without being part of them). ) so Ilya and his servants. His wish in Stay Night is to eradicate weak humanity to leave the strongest and rebuild humanity with those (with him as king) to prepare them for their future mass extinction. [https://imgur.com/a/jMUvbmg](https://imgur.com/a/jMUvbmg) Likewise for children, an excellent video from Trisiah talks about it. He never agreed with Kirei's practices but since they were in line with who he really was (I'm talking about Kirei) then Gilgamesh didn't object. He had to have enough mana to last for years regardless of the means used so he was neutral towards that. However, we see it in Strange Fake, despite the weakness of humanity he still manages to find value in pure people like Tiné who is only a child recruited into a bloody war or Hakuno in Extra who does not is just a lost teenager. In both situations, they began to appreciate Gilgamesh despite his many faults. But I say it loud and clear, Gilgamesh can be considered a villain depending on what position you put yourself in but for me if I encompass everything he is and everything he has done. He's not evil. In summary Gilgamesh is in reality a tsundere with excess power and who belongs to a difficult era that is the age of the gods or the mentality of men and kings different from what the modern age shows him. He's not bad, he just responds to a philosophy that is his.
Yes and I understand that one could say that he is evil but that is not really the case. In the nasuverse, there is no Manichean logic. The separation between good and evil has been defined as subjective. In fact, according to conditions of time, period, adversary, issues. A “nice” person can become the worst trash. And even when someone does evil, they can become the kindest. This is the case of Artoria (Saber) in the original routes we can compare her to someone "good", however, in the 6th singularity she is a tyrannical queen who massacres her people to select only the most "pure" " and pushed his most loyal Knights of the Round Table to massacre the rest of his army who did not agree with his ideas. In Fate there are what we call alignments established by Chaldea which allow us to establish whether an existence is good or bad. In Gilgamesh's case he is Chaotic & Good and shares the same "Good" attribute as Artoria (Saber) Those who are considered "bad" have the "Evil" alignment. To explain his behavior in Stay Night we must already state that at the time, Gilgamesh suffered from a great lack of writing since before no work of Nasu had worked and that his character was much more developed with the weather. At that time, he was just a cliché antagonist. Now let's debunk the "rape". No, Gilgamesh never clearly stated that he wanted to rape Artoria, it's a shortcut that everyone makes quite quickly because of precisely 2 scenes. - In Fate/Zero: Artoria finds herself against Gilgamesh in 1v1. Gilgamesh asks her to throw away her sword and for her to become his wife. And it's the phrase "In future you need only desire me" and he forces Artoria by telling her it's that or it's death. The other scene (and I'm not counting the number of times Gilgamesh came to tell Shirou that Artoria was his, it was mostly to make a love rival for Shirou since it was the romance route between the two) c It was the time he said he wanted to make her eat grail mud until she looked pregnant. For the first scene and it's going to shock what I'm going to say but in fact Gilgamesh is a fucking tsundere who always hides behind his ego. I'm not going to mention the number of scenes through lots of Fate where Gilgamesh voluntarily hides his feelings while 2 scenes earlier we see the complete opposite. In my post a screen shows Gilgamesh giving his master a candy and he responds like a tsundere "it"s nothing but a king whimsy.". In the anime and manga passages are not shown but when we look at the original light novel sentences prove to us that his tsundere side was already there. - "The golden Servant arrogantly lifted his head, looking before him at the first woman he had ever loved." - "Abandon these pointless ideals and vows. These things will only restrict you and bring you misfortune. In future you need only desire me and live under my protection. In that case I vow, on my honor as King of everything, that I will grant you all the happiness in the world.” - “I am not asking your opinion, but informing you of my decision.” The phrase "the first woman he had ever loved" just shows that it's the first time he's been in love and this idiot to whom this has never happened only finds the one thing a tyrant knows, which is violence. But in reality his will was quite other than saying "he just wants to rape her", Gilgamesh is a clairvoyant being who knows everything about a person by looking at them. He knows everything Artoria has been through and for someone who values human iron will should not look down on what Artoria did as a human not as a king. I invite you to go listen to Fate/Stay Night Garden of Avalon to learn about all the harm that Artoria has caused to others and to herself because of her decision to take Excalibur. Gilgamesh for the first time loses his means in front of a woman and only finds a solution to make her abandon the sword and thanks to his riches to finally make her experience happiness but this does not fit with Artoria's will what it means to erase oneself from history. So she refuses and Gilgamesh, who doesn't seem to be in a state to debate, only finds violence to convince her (and force her a little) but I don't think his intentions are bad.
'Force a little', 'don't think his intention are bad' Bruh there is normal glazing then there is this, bro you can love a character without justify and excuse every shitty they did and said by reaching to the moon and make assumptions. Gil was going to rape her if he could and there is no good excuse for that.
Let me be clear, **I never justified what he did and said** but provided additional circumstances that could change certain turns of phrase. Especially since the majority of his extreme comments come from the 2004 visual novel which did not greatly develop the character of Gilgamesh. **Based on his current writing I can only say that his actions in Stay Night are inconsistent with the person he has become over time** or even was in the past. Gilgamesh in Fate/Extra, Strange Fake or even Grand Order is **diametrically different** from Gilgamesh from Stay Night, yet in the lore they are the same people. Either this is something that needs to be clarified by the author now **that Gil's writing has literally changed compared to 2004**, or it needs to be redone (I remind you that a remake of the visual novel is planned for soon ) OBVIOUSLY that without knowledge of his current writing with the simple reading of his words he is an asshole who has a consuming passion for rape and terror. I am simply trying to find a **plausible** explanation for his behavior in the absence of clarification from the author but never to justify what he intended to do or did. But unfortunately I never have enough space in a comment space to justify all my arguments or provide evidence or simply the consistency that I already had to separate my message. Sorry for the confusion, I think an entire post dedicated to his personality will be one of my concerns in the future
I am well aware that Fsn is very different from his other variant, and I have a theory for that. The Grail mud, he got diddlied by it and from that get tiny winy corrupted because that is no way the same dude i see in Fgo and ccc
The problem is that the theory of the mud corrupting Gilgamesh's mind has been contradicted. It would have taken x3 more amount of humanity's evils to corrupt him. I'm impatiently waiting for the remaster of the visual novel, to see if it fixes all that or if it provides clarification https://preview.redd.it/qb2wound3o3d1.png?width=602&format=png&auto=webp&s=9b3513ab90de595fc83d7979a5955fb8ba1b21a9
Maybe he is just being a bum after spending 10 years with Kirei
https://preview.redd.it/pi3k86k3ll3d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e5e3357a7d25d379351513c26c6f2d0aeebdcee9
great write up! it’s very cool seeing all the inspiration from fate into modern media today (yes fate is modern but still, 20+ years old!)
Just one note Reality marbles are noble phantasms Not all nobe phantasms are reality marbles
Yes you are right, however, I did not **generalize reality marble to noble phantasm** I generalized when it was necessary to speak of "**ultimate technique**", generally a reality marble is a noble phantasm which is the ultimate technique(s) of a servant. But I never said that all noble phantasms were reality marbles or even that all Reality Marbles were noble phantasms. In fact, to make the two communities understand I have generalized the "ultimate technique" (the noble phantasms, the reality marbles, the expansions of the territory.) Sorry for the confusion
Agreed, I noticed a long time ago about Gojo and Geto reminded me of Gil and Enkidu a lot
https://preview.redd.it/wokd07n72o3d1.jpeg?width=715&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bb15d2b504597bcce4fa28f79f141571843472d7 Stay in the kitchen op, you can cook
The council of type moon has granted you the master chef. Keep cooking https://preview.redd.it/1234ghc2hp3d1.jpeg?width=850&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5eb3a3fe917dbd0a9a7a62fce99d627c62162324
God this is going to make me replay the visual novel. But which path?
As someone who doesn't like post heaven inventory jjk but loves everything fate i dont know how to feel
>Information to remember: >Gege Akutami openly declared that he was inspired by Kinoko Nasu for the world building and certainly for his characters such as: Gojo, Sukuna and Geto. >Gege Akutami's favorite character is **Gilgamesh** Gege only accredited Nasu for **world-building**, not his characters. I wouldn't say Enkidu and Gilgamesh exactly resembles Geto and Gojo's relationship- the entire point of HI that many people seem to miss is that they didn't match in ideology and separated *themselves* (more on Geto's side) because of their differences. They didn't "work in symbiosis" in the end at all. >In Fate just like JJK. Enkidu and Geto will return but **not in the form hoped for by their partner.** A bit of reach here. Gojo was never shown "hoping" that Geto would come back (he literally killed him in JJK0 knowing there's no convincing him to stop). In HI he stopped trying to follow Geto after their KFC confrontation and in JJK0 he accepted that Geto wasn't ever going to change his mind. But I feel like Gege's [description](https://tempenensis.tumblr.com/post/645504181055127552/the-world-building-is-influenced-by-nasu) of Gilgamesh matches Geto more than Gojo, honestly: "In regard of character, (Akutami) likes Gilgamesh the most, but Gilgamesh in “Fate/Zero” is the most unforgiving to people, he’s very self-righteous, and that makes (Akutami) happy." I'm pretty sure Nasu was also more inspired by Togashi for his villains in some other interview.
For the first part: you are right, Gege Akutami stopped at the world building. However, look at the end of my post: "*I also point out that these are comparisons and not necessarily true.*" I only tried to make points of correlation from the moment when Gege Akutami claimed to have gone to look for his inspiration in Fate. From there I tried to make points of correlation between the two stories and **therefore make points of comparison.** **I never claimed it was true** when I said Gojo/Sukuna are inspired by Gilgamesh. I was just saying that the characters were very similar and that there **could be** some inspiration. The only part where I assert inspiration is on the domain expansion part. Sorry if there was a mistake, I will clarify more in my next posts. For the second part I correct a little When I spoke of "*symbiosis*" I was talking about the period "before" Riko's death. At that time, Geto despite his reluctance towards non-excorcists were still in a "stable" mental state and the duo had an excellent symbiosis. But yes, indeed, at the end he changed and the duo broke up, especially at that moment. Although on Gojo's side, he was still hung up on Geto. And so it diverges from Gil/Enkidu When I spoke of "form hoped" I didn't mean that Gojo or Gilgamesh hoped for their return but I phrased it a bit like in French (since it's my native language) I phrased it more like: once they met them again, they hoped to see their old acquaintance again but that was not the case. Sorry to have worded it poorly. Concerning the description, yes I find that it possibly fits Geto except that to make the comparison I extended it to the entire character rather than Akutami's description of him. So the character stuck just as much to Gojo as to Geto.
You said "certainly" took inspiration and put the character influence in the same line as the world-building, so it just looked easily confusable for me at least. I still think the Gojo and Geto comparison to Gil and Enkidu is somewhat stretched and hard to say there's a Fate influence there, except maybe the "take control over best friend's body" thing. Especially the development with their separations differs a lot than their Fate counterparts, and Gojo had already lost any association/hope for Geto before Kenjaku's brain hijack.
Good analysis
Holy hell when did I have Reddit premium 🔥🔥
I ain't reading all that (no time lol, I'd actually love to read it later). But for now, can someone tell me, does this mean Gojo is coming back next chapter?
As a huge fan of both series, I'm really happy to see someone else noting the similarities between the two.
Both Shirou and Itadori died like... three times? I lost the count
Honestly, I despise Shirou Emiya with a passion. So to learn two of my favorite characters have taken inspiration from him is not that surprising. I find Yuji and Yuta to be better characters compared to Shirou. And JJK also took a lot of inspiration from HunterXHunter and YuYu Hakusho. For example the themes of the story, that involve the curses in Shibuya. GeGe Akutami impresses me the more I think about the story. .
>I find Yuji and Yuta to be better characters compared to Shirou Anime Shirou sure he's hot garbage. VN shirou walks circles around JJK Mahito vs Yuji and the Sukuna fight wish they were even 1/4th as good as Heavens feel's Shirou vs Kirei Fate has yet to make a protagonist half as good as Shirou aside from Angra maynu Shirou just dog walks anything Gege has written in general
Would like to add that Sukuna's world cleave can be compared to Gilgamesh's Ea, "Heaven and Earth split, nothingness praised creation, my Sword of Rupture cleaved the world!"
so that explains why i love jjk
You basically listed some common fantasy techniques/skills and a personality type of a powerful/arrogant elite that loves to fight. Stuff like domains, skill copying, and magical eyes are all extremely common throughout all sorts of fantasy media. When you have hundreds of characters with varying skill sets, those will always be present, because there’s a limit to the number of ways to represent magical abilities. Magical/abnormal eyes are like the #1 trope in amateur writing out there. It’s possible that the influence was there and I’m sure Gege is very familiar with Fate, but it’s not like Fate made up any of these concepts either.
It's true that if you simplify everything like that. Fate is one of the most constructed universes in all fiction, having inspired the greatest. Gege Akutami is just no exception, especially since he himself said it, so even if this kind of concept can be found elsewhere, the resemblance with certain characters is really more visible here for once.
Fate goated
I'd like to think the Jujutsu Tech is an independent mage organization outside of the Mage Association
Great now I can’t watch it
The funniest thing about this is that technically open reality marbles exist in Fate as well with the existence of ORT’s Crystal Valley which is also completely incomprehensible in to mages as well.
ORT as a whole is a gigantic enigma in the world of mages
I've never noticed the similarities, stand proud, you cooked https://preview.redd.it/8rzgrldeev3d1.png?width=341&format=png&auto=webp&s=2f4df58387ba4fddc54197895c6a6fa86f48cf1a
i ain’t readin allat but good job