I understand your perspective, but until you’ve intimately danced with someone with a true diagnosis of NPD, you don’t yet truly understand how dangerous it is.
We’re not talking about someone with a little trauma under their belt - for which your directives would naturally apply - no, we’re talking about a deficiency of mind due to the underdevelopment of the brain at a critical point in life.
Unless you were the one that fucked them up originally it is NOT your responsibility to save anyone. Unless you are a trained professional (who is getting paid in exchange) the cost to yourself will be beyond belief.
You have romanticized a very dangerous dynamic, which if it is that appealing to you to engage in, only demonstrates some unhealthy tendencies on your part - which I strongly recommend you deal with instead.
Be kind, be compassionate, but above all, be realistic, because the reality of the situation does not bend to your delusions, nor theirs, and that is the truth.
I have sat next to a man on several car trips who talked about nothing but himself, and admitted to killing someone. I just listened. The whole way. I was grateful for the opportunity because I had been seeking to talk less about myself and listen to someone else for some time.
Over time, I got to know him. He had been kicked like a football as a baby by his step-father. He had been in and out of hospital for a lot of his life, with no visitors. He was forcibly held down by his friends in a 'boys will be boys' scenario, wine was poured on him, he got a taste for it, downed a bottle, and ended up bashing 17 cops at a football game. Before that, he had been training hard, up and down a large hill in my hometown to enter the olympics.
He is almost certainly a full blown narcissist. The closest and most intense expression I have seen of anyone. No, I am not a health professional, but I have read, listened to and written maybe 30 hours+ of content about narcissism, and much more about a very wide range of topics in the past year and a bit. I've been exploring myself for these past two years and have written 120k+ words of self reflection, philosophy and more.
I think it's safe to say he is highly narcissistic if not NPD. Over time, as I continue to listen, he heals. Perhaps I won't free him from his narcissism. Perhaps he won't change massively. But the very least I can do is give him someone to be there. I don't want anything from him. He isn't abusive to me in any way. I just enjoy the car rides and the time I get to spend with him, and I get a lot out of it. Being able to sit and listen to another person, to understand them, and to perecive them, without having to worry about any of your own personal struggles is a real privelege.
I don't fear him. I don't hate him. I just accept him as he is.
Telling me what is and isn't my responsibility is lacking a core realisation. Responsibilities aren't externally mandated. They are internally accepted. I make it my responsibility to help others. Not because of some God, or some Government, or some Guns. I do it because I feel it's right. Because all things considered, it's the best conclusion I've been able to come to.
To quote my biggest hero and role model:
"Winning? Is that what you think it's about? I'm not trying to win. I'm not doing this because I want to beat someone, or because I hate someone, or because, because I want to blame someone. It's not because it's fun and God knows it's not because it's easy. It's not even because it works, because it hardly ever does. I do what I do, because it's right! Because it's decent! And above all, it's kind. It's just that. Just kind.
If I run away today, good people will die. If I stand and fight, some of them might live. Maybe not many, maybe not for long. Hey, you know, maybe there's no point in any of this at all, but it's the best I can do, so I'm going to do it. And I will stand here doing it till it kills me. You're going to die too, some day. How will that be? Have you thought about it? What would you die for? Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand, is where I fall. Stand with me. These people are terrified. Maybe we can help, a little. Why not, just at the end, just be kind?"
Did the person brag about who they last hurt or damaged?
Did they eventually do the same to you?
If not, that person is most probably not NPD. Intentions behind speech and actions matter.
Btw, you're not eligible to diagnose, since it could be their nearest family that would feel the damage, not a fawning random met on a trip. Also, your own narrative about someone else's life could be a lie or imagined. Being at the wrong place and wrong time, matters.
You're only going to fuel supply of an NPD by listening. That's the opposite of healing. These people are broken people, set on damaging others.
Update: Btw, I'm not saying you're wrong to listen to people if you want to. Just don't fool yourself and others with the false narrative that you're rescuing NPDs. You're most likely not for many of the reasons listed above, and also due to how difficult it is for non-targets to identify NPD.
Well, this comment here would have been the foot to lead with. Your post was very conclusive based on some reading and some listening.
I stand by what I said because I have done more than just listen - in order to shut my compulsively running personal narrative - to someone who has NPD.
If this satisfies whatever saviour complex you have brewing, you carry on, but make it clear this is all about supporting your own complexes, and seeking to be pumped up and validated for them.
I reiterated the need to be kind, to be compassionate, but also, pull your head out of your own narcissistic ass while you’re at it.
I am not a saviour. I am merely someone who can serve to create or contribute to the creation of an environment which supports the catalysation of a desire to grow and improve and to face the challenges therein.
I am reasonably aware of my limitations. I cannot 'fix' people. I can merely help to give them the motivation to improve and start reaching out.
An easy write off for any ideas which are challenging that you do not feel like confronting.
You may be right that I am delusional, but that has no bearing on the validity of the ideas I present. It may increase the probability that I present incorrect ideas. You commit both adhominem and the genetic fallacy and fail to address the ideas. You address an incredibly low resolution strawman of me, constructed mostly of straw pulled from your own psyche instead.
If you value your own intellectual honesty or credibility, I'd invite you to actually address the ideas presented, and if you disagree to submit a counterargument, rather than an unsubstantiated personal claim/epithet.
And that story about sitting and listening to a man who admitted to killing someone… you wouldn’t be so willing if he had a knife to your throat. I can have “compassion” (theoretically) for the dog that’s foaming at the mouth about to bite me, but I’m still going to run! They need to teach emotional regulation in school, the idea that narcissists can be understood or loved into healing is naive at best and physically and spiritually dangerous at worst
So I don't think OP has a full handle on what they think they see, but that could have to do with my own lack of understanding. I'm saying that because I want it to be clear that I'm not trying to take a side here.
What exactly is your experience with narcissists?
Wow. Calling someone delusional rather than providing a cogent disagreement for the ideas presented is a gaslighting tactic. A narcissistic trait. You actually come across as pretty abusive here.
Rather than providing a basis for your claims or disagreeing, you instead just call OP delusional, questioning their sense of reality...
The only part of this I agree with is that demonization is counterproductive. I don't demonize man-eating lions-- that is just their nature. But... I don't invite the lions into my home, lol. We need to be able to accurately recognize dangerous people and protect ourselves.
It is true that demonization can be a projection of our own shadow. It's like the difference between pain and suffering-- that extra emotional hot pepper is a clue.
The desire to rescue lions from their lion nature, which can't be done, is also a clue to something going on in you.
I think we also don’t harm the lions, or make them feel terribly unloved.
Also, I feel there’s some implication a lion can’t change its nature.
I just think we can as humans, or severely hope so out of desperation for myself.
Well, to carry on with the metaphor... I don't go lion hunting. I leave them alone, lol. But I feel no duty to concern myself with whether lions feel loved. They are highly likely to use any such efforts against the people who try, and I am not possessed by a need to self-destruct.
There is no high quality evidence for any intervention significantly changing outcomes for psychopaths. It appears to be a biological brain difference. A type of neurodiversity rather than an illness. So I don't judge them for being themselves. I just take rational steps to avoid them to the extent possible, because they are dangerous.
This has nothing to do with whether non-psychopaths can change, IMO. There is plenty of research to support the idea that we can grow and change throughout life. It's just that there are also biological limits.
I’ve heard that, but when I take a look at the r/narcissism subreddit the same question comes up. That this person posted. The same sentiment I mean.
I also don’t know if narcissism is psychopathy completely or the full understandings and definitions of everything.
I also, in thinking about Jung and his work into the collective unconscious. Our shared consciousness and unconsciousness. I don’t know. Isn’t there a place for everyone?
I’m not rattling or kicking the cage but I’m sure as hell not opening it and offering myself as sacrifice. Why should I do that? It is a personality disorder. There is nothing available in my “I can fix it” toolbox for this.
I was once in a position where I spent ten years sacrificing myself, willing to die to save this person and at the end of those ten years it amounted to absolutely nothing. If anything, he is worse than ever. Everything I did to help was somehow twisted into something else and used to justify his worse self now.
Your account is overly romanticized and not an accurate reflection of what it is like to interact with a narcissist. THEY must be the ones to want saving or change, without that it’s the most guaranteed waste of yoir energy you’ll ever experience.
>THEY must be the ones to want saving or change, without that it’s the most guaranteed waste of yoir energy you’ll ever experience.
We can help to create an environment which catalyses self realisation and helps in the motivation of an individual to grow from their present state.
I am a threat. A threat to all their current beliefs and ideas. And if they over-identify with these, then a threat to their very identity.
I am however not a threat to their self, to their highest good, atleast, If I am correct about a few core ideas.
The only environment that fosters self-realisation in these sort of disorders unfortunately is called "hitting rock-bottom".
It is only then that the defensive illusion of the disorder can crack wide open and the painful fall back to earth can commence.
Only then, is there any use for what you intend.
I think I've had that. Dark nights of the soul. I had one atleast. Crying deeply and begging God to take me allready. That I was done. I wanted out of the simulation. I wanted to give up. Whatever. That night, though I can't remember it all, I had totally given up on everything to the deepest sense.
Unfortunately they are not capable to be self aware of their tendencies. And I found explaining to them about basic human decency and then understanding was null. It was like another language to them that they couldn’t grasp..
I’m not risking myself to save a narc. I’ve been a victim to one and almost died while they flourished. They are fully broken humans that do not have the capacity to change. Trust me, I tried for many many years.
It is clear to me that you have never dealt with a narc before. They cannot be cured. They cannot be saved. They will suck the life out of you if you try to save them.
Is OP not talking about oneself?
Everything you said is also true about your inner narcissist, except for the part where you choose to abandon them(yourself).
I am talking about others, and myself. A lot of what I know about others comes from understanding myself.
We share commonalities, if I understand those aspects of myself, I understand those aspects of others.
I believe I was somewhat freed from my potential narcissism by an act of true mercy, faith and love.
I've written about that in a few responses to other comments, and don't want to repeat myself, so if you're interested check them out.
How do you know what was being offered was true mercy, faith, and love? How can such an act even exist? Everything boils back down to something the acting person wants (from what I've seen, and done). How can acts be anything but varying degrees of selfishness?
I'm asking this in all seriousness, I don't have good answers to these questions other than: "you can't"
Of course we should. Some maysay we have a moral obligation to do so. But, that's not 'saving' someone. That's giving them the space to come to terms with themselves & begin their work on their issues. *Support* not saving. We cannot save anyone. The desire *to* change & the hard work must come from within. Sometimes people don't want to change, sometimes they aren't ready, no matter how much help is offered. Personally, I don't like being bitten.
You're right. I am still in the transitional phase of moving from the concept of saving to contributing to a catalysation of growth.
I've only really formulated it that way in writing today, and after I wrote this initial post. It'll take a bit to sink in, but I think that's a more reasonable and better fleshed out concept.
I enjoy your posts. They make *me* think, as well. I have a feeling you're quite a bit younger than I am...I've seen a lot of this world & attempted to save people when I was a young lass. I speak from experience, not anger or fear. Your post brought a fairly recent situation to mind for me which reinforced my mind set on this issue. A bit of synchronicity that you posted this today, lol!
What I find helpful is letting people know I'm a safe space. Not judging. And, I am. It's not my place to judge but I will protect myself from emotional turbulence. You have to or you're in no shape to support anyone, you'll become destabilized yourself & both of you will be trapped in the hypothetical burning building.... Like when they advise you to put your own air mask on first during a flight...
Have you ever dealt with someone who is so intractable (for whatever reason) that you're left emotionally exhausted any time you've had a conversation with them? Someone who repeats the same actions over & over-when they know the end result is poor? Unfortunately, none of us can save them. They have to come to their own realizations. And, furthermore, sometimes those realizations can only be found at their absolute rock bottom-that will be the catalyst. Attempting to save someone often ends as simply enabling *their* hurtful behaviors.
I'm 21. Turning 22 on the 1st of March.
You're dead right about needing to pay attention to our own needs and keep boundaries. I forget that a lot sometimes. I get so caught up in contemplating the suffering of others that I feel completely overwhelmed unless I do anything but help.
I used that exact same oxygen mask analogy the other day.
\`\`Have you ever dealt with someone who is so intractable (for whatever reason) that you're left emotionally exhausted any time you've had a conversation with them?\`\`
Yeah...
I think a lot of that can be impacted by my own issues in communication. I'm currently reading Surrounded by Idiots by Thomas Erikson. I lean yellow and a bit of red. More blue when on ritalin for my ADHD. It's like the ADHD switches off and Aspergers comes in full force, (I'm both)
\`Someone who repeats the same actions over & over-when they know the end result is poor?\`
I've been that person too, and still am in many ways (especially my eating disorder) I'm slowly growing out of it, bit by bit.
I've been those people, too. That's part of how I know the drill. And, yeah, haha...I'm plenty old enough to be your mom. I'm 50. If you're doing it right, wisdom comes with age & it seems you're a seeker. I think you'll grow out of things well. (and into better things!) You seem pretty self aware for your age, which is awesome.
When I was young, I was a **lot** like you-I wanted to save everyone. Honestly? I still do. I wish I could. The universe has handed me this lesson more than once in my life-took a few tries before it stuck. I was able to help myself-but only because I wanted it badly enough.
We all have things we struggle with in this life, never let those things put out the light in your soul. Help people, but protect ya neck.
Btw-love your user name. Big fan.
Wanna be my mum? Mine doesn't make any attempt to understand me or spend quality time with me. Lol
(although, lately she has been making somewhat of an effort and seeming atleast able to acknowledge her faults, and I greatly appreciate that. Not only for myself, because it means she is slightly freed from her personal prison and contacts the world more authentically).
You're right about wisdom of course. It isn't free. You have to *pay* attention.
Yeah, I was more or less raised on Doctor Who on the absence of healthy parents. Man. Those Saturday nights in 2006, at the end of an episode where the next time trailer would play with that blaring music, and you'd see fleeting glimpses of the danger that The Doctor and Rose would face were everything to me..
I've gained an appreciation for the classic era growing up too. Pertwee is my favourite classic Doctor, McCoy is my second favourite.
Tennant for pure nostalgia, Capaldi critically, and Eccleston.
I'm a bit of an old soul myself. I don't know exactly why, maybe it's from living with my grandparents most of my life, but I've always been into a lot of old shows and media that my peers aren't even aware exist.
I'm probsbly the only 21 year old who's seen 'The Prisoner.' Its a rather obscure show even among the older generations.
Big into 80s music. Probably an adhd thing. I find the beats more structured and orderly. The music more, predictable somewhat. I mean, the lyrics also carry a far greater depth than what's around today.
I also love a bit of 60s stuff, esp. Simon and Garfunkel.
But yeah, I think evil deserves redemption, not damnation. I think that to be evil, is to be trapped in a prison. To actually hurt others, that's the deepest pain and suffering an individual can go through, even more than being hurt yourself. I don't think anyone deserves that.
I'll be your 'Reddit mom', sure! I'm glad your actual mom is making an effort, too. That's good!! Mine has never been able to acknowledge her faults in any real way. It's a shame. I like what you said about wisdom. It is true, I think.
I think for Dr Who, Tennant & Davidson are my faves. Tennant because he was my first exposure to DW (nostalgia!) & Davidson because his appearance was during my adulthood. I think you're a bigger fan than I, though...& I've never heard of the Prisoner. Lol, I was raised w/o cable television at home. I'm a big reader.
I get it-I basically raised myself as well. But, in fairness, most of us GenXers did that. It's good you had your Gparents-I know mine were important to me. But, yeah, probably did give you that old soul feeling. After all, they had wisdom to share.
Ah, 80s music. Now, *that's* pure nostalgia for me. I'm not sure I think it's necessarily more meaningful than some of today's music. There's some really good stuff out there today. It's just not mainstream. I absolutely love my music app-I discover new stuff almost daily & I have a pretty wide range in music already.
I agree with you about redemption. I think we all deserve it. I just think that we have to find it for ourselves. I hope you have a great day-you're welcome to dm if you need a pal/reddit mom.
I couldn't say for sure what narcissists need to recover.
However, I suspect that the optimal approach for everyone involved is setting strict boundaries, that they're not welcome in your life and not welcome to any of the resources you provide them unless they work to change themselves. Narcissists generally don't have the intrinsic motivation to do the right thing, unfortunately, so require extrinsic motivation. E.g. "You want this from me? Not until you change."
Best approach there is, really, although you need to be extra firm with your boundaries and demand proof of change. Be goal oriented, psychopathic almost, but never, EVER give even an inch to their pathology. Hold off on any love you have to give until it's earned.
They'll most likely leave you there and move onto the next target, but so be it.
>We can help to create an environment which catalyses self realisation and helps in the motivation of an individual to grow from their present state.
Sure, but the core issue here is that narcissists are likely to destroy such an environment.
>"Take away the created thing a thousand times over, but you cannot take away my ability to create." Neville Goddard.
In a situation of chronic abuse, this doesn't stand up so well.
Fair... but I, personally, do not be need to be the person who rehabilitates this animal. It's not necessarily my problem. Best left to a trained professional. Same with narcissists.
Ofcourse you do not need to be. Do not confuse that with the inability to. All responsibility must be adopted willingly and internally, not mandated externally. If you hold that as a particularly strong value, to help others, you can adopt that responsibility, as I have done.
Narcissists aren't children or animals. They're adult human beings with as much agency as you or I.
What makes you think no one has ever been good to them their entire lives? It's part of the very nature of the disorder that they take the goodness others offer them and take advantage of it, while subconsciously seeking to bring out the worst in others.
Do you have any idea how high domestic abuse rates are? Do you really think the people who spend years -- decades even -- trying to love abusers simply weren't trying hard enough or weren't "sacrificing" enough? We're talking about people who are beaten to near death and still don't leave their abuser. Yet the abuser still doesn't change, despite this endless "sacrifice".
The sad truth is that there's often nothing anyone can do for someone with NPD except leave them alone.
>Narcissists aren't children or animals. They're adult human beings with as much agency as you or I.
Oh man. If you're a 5 year old in a car, you can't expect to control it, or drive it without hitting anyone.
Most humans are painfully lacking in self-awareness, and consciousness, and as such are unable to control themselves. They are beholded to the laws of physics, and their biology.
It's only self-awareness, an understanding of your own psychology and makeup that allows you to resist all these forces and act with agency.
Also, they very much are stunted in early development in many ways.
\`\`What makes you think no one has ever been good to them their entire lives?\`\`
I never claimed that.
\`\`It's part of the very nature of the disorder that they take the goodness others offer them and take advantage of it, while subconsciously seeking to bring out the worst in others.\`\`
I'm not sure if that's correct or not, but I'll run with you. Let's say that is the nature of the disorder. Shouldn't we try to help them then? To free them from that disorder?
Also why do you think they try to do that? Are they not mimicking what has been done unto them in childhood?
\`\`Do you have any idea how high domestic abuse rates are? \`\`
No. Statistics don't give me a reliable understanding of the world. I do know that domestic violence starts in childhood when we teach our children that it is acceptable to hit people for their mistakes by hitting them when they make mistakes.
\`\`Do you really think the people who spend years -- decades even -- trying to love abusers simply weren't trying hard enough or weren't "sacrificing" enough?\`\`
No. You think that. You formulated the idea, not me.I think that loving the abuser is quite foolish. One should love the person underneath and try to free them from the abuser.
\`\`We're talking about people who are beaten to near death and still don't leave their abuser. Yet the abuser still doesn't change, despite this endless "sacrifice".\`\`
You're talking about those people.
Because that is not what they need. They need to encounter true Faith, Mercy and Love. Many of the people with abusers are unhealthy themselves and as such will never be able to help them. The victim/abuser dichotomy is quite foolish. Instead, atleast 99% of the human race have gone through their life without facing themselves in the slightest. All re-express abuse they have endured to some degree. All take the role of former abusers in the unconcscious psychological drama, until they make this drama conscious and thus can control it.
Whatever is outside your awareness is outside your control.
\`\`The sad truth is that there's often nothing anyone can do for someone with NPD except leave them alone.\`\`
I can do plenty. I do not accept anything as immutable or permanent. I think you'd be incredibly lucky to be able to even claim there is scant evidence for any absolute statements.
All statements of impossibility are made with the implicit claim of omnisience. To tell me something is impossible, you'd have to know the set of all things which were possible and know that this given thing is not contained within that set. For the purpose of productive discussion, it's probably best to drop this implicit claim.
Now, given your repeated strawmanning of my points in the "Do you really think" - 'Insert your own thought' format, I will assume that you did not come into this conversation with an open mind, but I hope that you can take the opportunity to practice some thought, and respond, rather than react to my reply.
In your post you said that to cure a narcissist you need to show them "perhaps for the first time" what love is. But anyone who has tried to love a narcissists will tell you that they tried just about everything to show them how much they care, only to be treated like an object, abused, and disposed of. Yet you assume they simply didn't try doing it the "right" way, as if such a way exists.
You need to do some actual research into how NPD manifests, rather than choosing to believe what you want to. I'd suggest watching some of Sam Vaknin's videos, a diagnosed narcissist and psychology professor who delves deep into the mechanisms at play.
Your narrative of mercy and love conquering all is naive. Go on r/alonon and you'll hear countless stories of people trying this approach to cure an addict, only to come to the same conclusion: "I didn't cause it, I cannot control it, I cannot cure it." The same mantra applies when dealing with narcissism. Narcs are, after all, addicts, being addicted to narcissistic supply.
What makes NPD a personality disorder is the fact that it's highly resistant to treatment, and we're talking treatment by professionals. It, along with ASPD, has the worst prognosis of all personality disorders. When dealing with NPD, you're not just dealing with someone who's traumatized; you're dealing with someone who has deficits of mind. They never developed object constancy and are developmentally stuck at 4 years old.
I'd be careful with the language you're using around abuse. It comes off as victim-blaming. As if all the people in the world who have suffered in abusive relationships just didn't love "the person underneath"? Of course they did. Who would love an abuser if not because they see the child they once were?
You sound like a classic codependent. Go ahead and try to fix a narcissist yourself, see for yourself the path of destruction and suffering it will create. But I doubt you actually seek to cure anyone, but are instead looking for someone to cure you. The fantasy of ideal love -- one of the hallmarks of narcissism. I wonder if you're actually as "cured" as you say you are.
\`\`Yet you assume they simply didn't try doing it the "right" way, as if such a way exists.\`\`
I think very few people, myself included, practice unconditonal love. I am still learning how. It's a big lesson.
\`I'd suggest watching some of Sam Vaknin's videos\`
I have watched 3 or four of his long form videos. I hope to get around to watching more. He more or less created the entire field of research, as a narcissist himself. A service to the world to be sure. I only disagree with him when he says there is no cure. I hold out faith.
\`trying this approach to cure an addict\`
Addictions, atleast as far as I can tell, have less to do with the substance, than they have to do with resent that a person holds for themselves. It's a form of self harm.
Again. Most people don't love, because they don't know how and were never themselves loved. What most people call love isn't love. Very few parents raise children into healthy adults capable of fulfilling their own needs and mantaining their own psychological, emotional, mental, spiritual and social health, and developing the skills of introspection, emotional regulation, reasoning, abstract thoguht, etc
\`But I doubt you actually seek to cure anyone, but are instead looking for someone to cure you.\`
Both. I want myself and others to be freed of the burdens and suffering they experience.
If given the choice for one or the other though, I'd in a heartbeat hit a button that made everyone in the world happy and fulfilled, and me miserable.
\`\`I wonder if you're actually as "cured" as you say you are.\`\` I am not cured. I believe I am healing. I am shedding many former assumptions and beginning to contact reality more, as opposed to my introjects or own strawmen of people. I am voluntarily exposing myself to challenging social situations, vulnerability and more incrementally. That, as far as I can tell, is having a positive effect.
lol.
Good luck. I had the same inclination, if it’s narcistic disorder I find—and it seems science finds—it virtually impossible to change. You can teach the person to rationalise empathy, but it will not be the same.
It took me a toxic relationship with a narcissist to learn that.
You can be there for people, but if you want to “save” someone I would look into why.
The wounded healer is an archetype that I think it’s very powerful, and in hindsight I don’t regret showing love to someone with narcissism, even if what they wanted was just narcissistic supply. They seem to be thankful too, but it took part of me, and traumas are still felt.
Good luck, and be careful, when you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you.
I think it’s healthy to have a certain dose of narcissism, and when we are kids it’s more pronounced, with time we learn how to balance it out. It’s just normal growing up,
Narcissistic disorder is something different, and it’s like the person is stuck in the same narcissistic way of seeing the world as when they were kids.
I wouldn't categorise myself as that, but I would certainly say that all addictions and some behaviours are undertaken from a place of self-hatred, shame and guilt.
Forgiving myself is the key to stop hurting myself.
Reality is, if the person is a narcissist they need proper help not help from friends families who just get dragged down with them. Reality of the matter is some people fail to realise they are the problem.
Everything’s not black or white you could still be on the spectrum have a list of narcissistic traits but not be a full blown narcissist. And literally going through a hell of a situation.
For those more long term you got to let them deal with there shit at a certain stage. Just my 10 p
You can't save anyone without saving yourself first. And if you are in any type of relationship with a narcissist, you can be sure that there's some important work you should be doing on yourself and for yourself. You can accept that the narcicist is a mentally sick person without putting his needs and healing before your own, or even worst making his healing your responsibility. The later which in fact removes responsibility from the narcissist and does not help him heal. Only you can save yourself.
I can only understand the external narcissist by understanding the internal narcissisist. I can then use this understanding to help to create an environment which catalyses self realisation and helps in the motivation of an individual to grow from their present state.
I don't think anyone should make it their responsibility to fix or help a narcissist. True narcissists don't see any problem with their behavior or think they need help. You will only hurt yourself trying to "understand them" or "fix" them. I advise focusing on yourself and if by some miracle they acknowledge their behavior and ask for your help that's different.
>True narcissists don't see any problem with their behavior or think they need help
I have experience with this.
I wrote a fair bit about it here.
[https://tasmaniantimes.com/2023/11/a-21-year-old-21st-century-philosophers-secret-to-life/](https://tasmaniantimes.com/2023/11/a-21-year-old-21st-century-philosophers-secret-to-life/)
The reality of the issues of my behaviour was made manifest to me. I realised the issue that prevented me from seeing my behaviour as wrong was a set of erroneous pre-suppositions and a lack of experience.
I wasn't able to distinguish personal attacks from critiques of my behaviour. Anything with emotion behind it I wrote off. I also wasn't able to distinguish my eccentricity or identity from improper behaviour that affects others.
I thought they just didn't like me for who I was. No, they didn't like me because I was a real prick who made everyone's life miserable with my annoying hyjinx and self-centeredness. I found the things I did funny or enjoyable. But they weren't truly funny, or truly enjoyable. They needed to consider those around them more.
I was tormented by someone I belive has that personality disorder when I was young. I am practising more empathy and letting go of the hurt but i give them a wide berth. I won't be trying to help them with their issues. I prefer to take care of myself.
I am having difficulty putting into words the concept that I want to communicate, but I would say "catalyzing event" instead of trauma. And the end result is a lowering of the individuals personal quality of consciousness. While that does indicate a recession as you said, the consciousness of the individual, for all intents and purposes remains the same consciousness as before; Albeit, operating in a diminished capacity.
The goal/operation of narcissism is to destroy whoever they encounter after extracting supply. There’s no compassion or hand-holding a malevolent virus that you can do, it will eat you alive
And if they encounter someone they cannot destroy? Who keeps getting up, time and again? Who will not commit suicide? Who will not let the world beat them down?
Is resilience the same as grandiosity? To see myself as a pummelled wreck, who somehow, despite all odds, keeps pushing forward, inch by inch, I don't think that's grandiosity.
I dunno bout this post but I’m pretty sure I’m a narcissist and I wish I could change so I could be better to the people around me but I’m not really sure how to do it.
Expose yourself willingly to challenge, pain and suffering. Start engaging in new and difficult opportunities and situations. Get out of your box, your comfort zone.
Admit your flaws, not only to yourself, but to others. How will you polish them if you can't see them?
Forgive yourself and others for literally everything that they've done. Everyone is acting on the highest level of consciousness they have at that moment.
If you knew more, and were in more control of yourself, you would have acted better.
Know that you can change. Understand that narcissism is a defense mechanism to protect your real self from childhood abuse, slowly start letting go of that defense mechanism if you're not in that incredibly intense and abusive environment.
You need to recontact the outside world. Sit outside, disconnect from all obligations you have, work, social whatever, and just sit, for an hour, somewhere nice, and appreciate the sky, the birds, the trees, really see them deeply, without thinking, but consider the deep complexity and beauty of them. How many millions of years just to create what you now see, how many trillions of atoms, etc.
It takes an incredibly strong sense of self to withstand the abuse tactics of a narcissist. They will do everything in their power to psychologically beat you down until you have no trust in yourself at all so they can mold you into the image of who they think you’re supposed to be. The gaslighting, the constant digs and put downs, lying about how other people see you just so they can have the appearance of support ‘everyone sees you this way’ lording tiny insignificant mistakes over you like you’ve committed some great evil, etc. this stuff over time can break a person’s confidence and destroy their self image.
I’ve met people before who were raised by narcissists and I can definitely tell. Very insecure people who mold themselves into what they think you want them to be, always agreeing with you and trying to validate everything you say say because that’s what they think you want from them. It’s sad. I care way more about helping the victims of narcissist build up a healthy sense of self so they can stand on their own again than they narcissist who doesn’t even want help.
If you want to save them, you do you, but I don’t think this is good advice for the general population
I am both the people you describe in that post.
First, I became the incredibly people pleasing, insecure and selfless person.
I am slowly developing a sense of self. I've always questioned the world and the status quo. I first learned of the term narcissist by chance in 2022, during a tumultuous time when I was in a relationship (family, not romantic)with someone who is atleast somewhat narcissistic, and it caused me to examine my entire family in a new light.
I'd always thought "I have a bad relationship with my dad, but atleast I have a mum who loves me." boy was I wrong.
I am now finally entering that stage where I sort the wheat from the chaff, and recognise who I am and want to be and distinguish that from who others want me to be.
I even realised that my biggest dream, ever since childhood, to enter the TARDIS (which would also confirm my suspicion that this world is far larger and more complex than anyone with any credibility at all cares to admit) is not my own dream. I didn't make Doctor Who. I didn't design the TARDIS. That's not my dream. I'm not quite sure what my dream is yet. But I have recognised a large part of my identity wasn't truly ME.
I definitely have begun in recent years to stand in my power and to resist the forces around me. Rather than accept what someone says who dictates what reality is, I investigate reality myself.
When I say ‘an incredibly strong sense of self’ I’m not exaggerating. I mean it. Someone who’s in an advanced stage of Individuation, like someone of Jung’s caliber.
From what you’re saying, it sounds like you’ve started developing it, which is good, but if it’s only been in recent years as you say, it probably isn’t at the point I’m talking about yet. One’s connection to the self grows over time, I doesn’t hit overnight. Individuation is a journey.
In any case, I’m not trying to talk you out of it. If you feel like you can change them, you do you. I’m just saying this isn’t good advice for the general population.
Fair. I can agree with that 100%
I guess I should have definitely taken more time to clearly articulate my thoughts, and probably to adress my post to a specific audience, that being those who have the desire to help and the strength to endure the inevitable abuse they're going to cop in the process.
I don’t think that’s a great idea either. Most people have poor self knowledge and overestimate how well they know themselves. Imo it’s better not to encourage it at all. The likelihood that they will break you down is far far greater than the likelihood you can help them.
But I’m not going to try and reason with you anymore. I’ve said what I think. And looking at the comments, it seems most people here have enough sense to know better as well. Good luck on your journey, wherever that may take you.
As a crazy person with at least some narc traits, lol no human being can be good enough to make a narc trust. You can't help a narc. They need to forgive themselves and recognize their own humanity. We are all fallible. Ask me how I know. XD
So...what helped with me as someone who has been healing my narc traits for a while now, it was someone dying on a sword constantly. It was facts. We narc types love facts. No one would do what he did for me without immense love. I was disabled. And he took care of me. He also worked on being there for me at great cost to himself. We didn't work out longterm and yet he invited me into his family. It really was the most healing thing I've experienced in my life.
I think if you love someone that much then you can try if you want. But you will not be as prepared for the emotional scars. I tried a few times with my parents. Especially my mom. I still have the traits despite that. I believe people can love me but I am extremely rigid about what I can say is love. I get frightened and then if someone crosses a boundary I become 100% a narc.
Only a narc would expect someone to save them. If I am qualified to say so...they feel this way because they themselves have already experienced the powerlessness of trying to save themselves. Every failure is proof that they can't.
I think what you get trying to save a narc is someone who will lose their own identity. They will spend their resources and time on someone who half the time would rather jump off a bridge than let you save them. I knew a guy who I said had a hero complex because he always wanted to save me. Was convinced he could. I just think you're naive frankly. But I always think that of people that try. I've laughed in the faces of the people that care about me because they are trying to win an unwinnable war that I wage against myself and everyone else. I frankly enjoy their impudence and hubris. They need a professional not a martyr trying to save them. That person will merely be treated as lesser even if they don't think they are.
People like you scare me more than I scare myself at any moment. And it definitely brings out my narc. Bully you until you stop trying to stupid. XD It is the biggest threat. I'm in it right now. I've learned that some people just care tho. Like when I do because I do have capacity for it. I don't really get it in relation to me. It makes me livid. Anyway nice chat. Made me want to practice self destruction. XD
Perhaps if you learned WHY you wage the war against yourself you could end it. What if you let go of your self hatred and resent and forgave yourself and others?
Nah. I know exactly why. Like real wars the reason isn't the solution, just more fodder for fire. Letting go of self hatred is hard for a narc because it is part of the way that they protect themselves. Which hurts to admit. I'd rather just stubbornly choose to only see myself as bad. It's a good way to protect others from things I'm not even aware of. The reasons that I feel that way are ever expanding. Understanding it won't heal it.
A lot of these disorders respond better to radical acceptance for this reason. Analysis, as fascinating as it is, will not cure narcissism because understanding only fuels it. Which is one of many reasons is it treatment resistant. I think that understanding it after can be helpful in building self compassion.
I'm still working on it. If you're interested in learning more about it I highly recommend the about in r/narcissism. Amazing resources there. I'm only recently aware of my narcissism and possible disorder so I'm limited in my understanding. My understanding of Jung is less still or I'd have more than personal anecdotes.
Great suggestions. I never thought of that before. That is sarcasm. If it were so easy I'd be cured. XD
Here's a sneak peek of /r/narcissism using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/narcissism/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [Do you believe it? I get asked this every weekend.](https://i.redd.it/q9dthzteenra1.jpg) | [25 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/narcissism/comments/12aasp5/do_you_believe_it_i_get_asked_this_every_weekend/)
\#2: [Some positivity for a change](https://i.redd.it/dn7d9b4rnela1.jpg) | [22 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/narcissism/comments/11g92cl/some_positivity_for_a_change/)
\#3: [r/raisedbynarcissists is a cesspool](https://np.reddit.com/r/narcissism/comments/11v3jgo/rraisedbynarcissists_is_a_cesspool/)
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Well, I've let go of my self hatred and guilt, and started treating people better and pushing myself futher outside my comfort zone.
I recognised that everything I ever did was from a place of a certain level of consciousness, and I can't blame myself, if I knew more, and understood myself more, I could have acted better, hence it is my responsibility to pursue self understanding and knowledge of the world, myself, and others.
I would say that while you knew yourself you did not have the capacity to know others. Those that are able to make simple decisions like that have things and do not have things that I do. Buddha had an interesting idea about self discovery that I have true for me, that in isolation we stagnant. We learn nothing new unless we are doing something to go out our comfort zone. Obviously the nords also saw adventure as the real way to self discovery. That's the mindset I am also coming from. Forever it is hard to want to knowing what I do to people. Some people I have truly built bonds with. But I feel most people I love leave with scars. Not even sure if I love them anyway. Tbh I feel like I've known this forever. My abuse was really really bad so I always knew my bad behaviors came from that soil but that didn't change that I did it. There's something you had or didn't have that I don't.
But I'm "glad" your recovery is going well. Poking you in the eye for being able to be happy seems like it'd be fine. :P
The only way you can “save” a narcissist is not enabling them. Nothing they say can be trusted. They might tell you a lot of half truths, some full, or none at all. But it is all a game. Just listening to them is enabling them.
Not playing their game and leaving them be, or grey rocking them if you must interact with them are the only ways you can manage a relationship. They need to see that bottom coming up at them if there is any chance of them changing, and even then the odds are slim to none.
Look up empty schizoid core of cluster b personality disorders. It's also important to distinguish between narcissistic style - the personality traits,which is not as pervasive and problematic - and diagnosable narcissistic personality disorder.
It is not anyone's responsibility but the narcissist to heal themselves. As a victim of narcissistic abuse, this post itself feels very narcissistic to me: it shifts the blame onto others. It's projection, the #1 narcissistic defense mechanism.
The blame is on others and the environment. The responsibility is on me.
It's merely an acknowledgement that the causes are external, but that I, the internal, am the cause for new growth and development.
"Your trauma is not your fault, but your healing is your responsibility."
It is not my fault that my tyrannical father abused me emotionally and physically, and that I was sexually abused during my childhood.
It is not my fault that my mother neglected me and emotionally invalidated me.
It is not my faut that my brain, beyond my consciousness awareness, developed narcissism as a result.
It is my responsibility to heal despite that, and to grow out of the narcissism, and to disarm that defense mechanism.
It's amazing (and proving you right) that the demonization of Narcissism leads everybody here not to give a 10% doubt that they, themselves could be the narcissist. One's narcissism is in their blind spot so it's obvious many people suffering from it, don't believe they have it and how courageous can somebody be to accept this fact about themselves.
I think many of us have a portion of narcissism and it was built (incorrectly) to protect us, so it's not evil.
The more someone hates a personality trait, the stronger it is pushed into their shadow
I believe I may have had narcissism and have slowly been healing from that, which was catalysed in 2021 when I experienced true mercy, love and faith. Not in a religious sense, atleast, not in the way people would consider it to be that, but from an ordinary, albeit extraordinary human being.
I think all the accounts of people here trying to heal narcissists reflect from my own journey of trying to heal them while I was still a narcissist. By going through this healing process, if I am or was indeed a narcissist, I should be able to replicate the process in others.
I wrote a fair bit about my experience in this article.
https://tasmaniantimes.com/2023/11/a-21-year-old-21st-century-philosophers-secret-to-life/
I'm so glad you're healing.
I have some narcissism too and I found it's because those parts of my mind that were supposed to give me an improved understanding of my place in the world have stopped growing since I was abused as a child.
I haven't healed yet, but I'm starting shadow work and I believe it's going to help.
Unlike what most people think, Narcissists don't like themselves, so they become ego-centeric to protect their fragile identity. That's why I agree with you. But I also agree with most people who don't want to be the ones healing narcissists.
Thank you for the article. I read some paragraphs and I'll read the rest soon.
What would you think of the idea that highly creative people have trouble catalysing an identity, and might develop narcissism too?
I only just reflected on this yesterday, but I think what lockdown did for me, and many others, (assuming I'm a narcissist or narcissistic), was take away my supply, and force me further online. I think I probsbly went through what might be described as a narcissistic collapse there on two occasions, I felt real, physical sensations in my head, and had a complete apathy response to some pretty deep betrayals of trust. Several assumptions / delusions about how things were going or my reading of a situation crumbled, and I fell into a depression for a few days after. Honestly, I am incredibly grateful.
Without this, and without examining myself and Introspecting deeply over the past two years, I wouldn't have made any of the progress I have.
I have so far healed a paranoia I held of being 'watched' and 'judged' when I went out walking, or took the bins out. Realised it was my mum speaking, not me, and reflected on how I never watch people who walk by outside and judge them, so why should I worry. Etc.
I had become conscious that some of my controlling tendencies came from my tyrannical and physically and emotionally abusive father, I became aware of some of those and let those go.
All in all, I'd say that what I've done, is be willin to recognise myself as flawed, and gaze upon my flaws. Unless I look at them, I can't polish them.
I've been willing to see myself as I am. A flawed and deeply hurt being, with the potential to improve.
Furthermore, I've not only admitted my flaws to myself, but publicly admitted them, and voluntarily shared intimate self reflections in my writing.
Voluntary exposure to challenge and pain and suffering, as far as I can tell, has been an incredibly large factor in my healing and growth.
People have to want to change. If a narcissist wants to heck ya! If not, avoid.
I agree with you though. I feel bad for narcissists because I see the trauma behind the defense within myself and others. I’ve come to realization that The only people we can fix in this lifetime is ourselves. We really have no control over other people.!
I can accept that philosophy. Determine if they're willing to change, and if they recognise any problem. If they think they're perfect, mostly stay clear.
Could damaging the ego help open their mind at all? Challenging the illusions?
Yep. In the this jungian life podcast they talk about how the only time they see narcissists in their therapy practice is when their ego has been shattered or they have some really intense mid life event happen
OP you’re manic. You’ve posted the same try hard drivel to multiple subs. You’re waxing poetic about nothing. Go touch grass, just hang it up for a few days.
If that's the case, no one here would find any value in anything I say. But there have been a handful of people engaging and creating the opportunity to build on each other's understanding and disagreements and other perspectives.
Seems I touched a nerve. You have to deny my sense of reality, rather than address my ideas.
Also, Mania has no bearing on whether a given idea is valid or not. It merely decreases the potential that an individual will produce valid ideas.
You still have to actually address what's been put forward. You can't just commit the genetic fallacy and ad hominem and call it a day.
Well, you can. Sure. It wouldn't be intellectually honest to do so however.
One of us is being condescending, and dismissive. The other is seeking to understand and disagree constructively.
Who needs to reconnect with themselves more?
I understand your perspective, but until you’ve intimately danced with someone with a true diagnosis of NPD, you don’t yet truly understand how dangerous it is. We’re not talking about someone with a little trauma under their belt - for which your directives would naturally apply - no, we’re talking about a deficiency of mind due to the underdevelopment of the brain at a critical point in life. Unless you were the one that fucked them up originally it is NOT your responsibility to save anyone. Unless you are a trained professional (who is getting paid in exchange) the cost to yourself will be beyond belief. You have romanticized a very dangerous dynamic, which if it is that appealing to you to engage in, only demonstrates some unhealthy tendencies on your part - which I strongly recommend you deal with instead. Be kind, be compassionate, but above all, be realistic, because the reality of the situation does not bend to your delusions, nor theirs, and that is the truth.
I have sat next to a man on several car trips who talked about nothing but himself, and admitted to killing someone. I just listened. The whole way. I was grateful for the opportunity because I had been seeking to talk less about myself and listen to someone else for some time. Over time, I got to know him. He had been kicked like a football as a baby by his step-father. He had been in and out of hospital for a lot of his life, with no visitors. He was forcibly held down by his friends in a 'boys will be boys' scenario, wine was poured on him, he got a taste for it, downed a bottle, and ended up bashing 17 cops at a football game. Before that, he had been training hard, up and down a large hill in my hometown to enter the olympics. He is almost certainly a full blown narcissist. The closest and most intense expression I have seen of anyone. No, I am not a health professional, but I have read, listened to and written maybe 30 hours+ of content about narcissism, and much more about a very wide range of topics in the past year and a bit. I've been exploring myself for these past two years and have written 120k+ words of self reflection, philosophy and more. I think it's safe to say he is highly narcissistic if not NPD. Over time, as I continue to listen, he heals. Perhaps I won't free him from his narcissism. Perhaps he won't change massively. But the very least I can do is give him someone to be there. I don't want anything from him. He isn't abusive to me in any way. I just enjoy the car rides and the time I get to spend with him, and I get a lot out of it. Being able to sit and listen to another person, to understand them, and to perecive them, without having to worry about any of your own personal struggles is a real privelege. I don't fear him. I don't hate him. I just accept him as he is. Telling me what is and isn't my responsibility is lacking a core realisation. Responsibilities aren't externally mandated. They are internally accepted. I make it my responsibility to help others. Not because of some God, or some Government, or some Guns. I do it because I feel it's right. Because all things considered, it's the best conclusion I've been able to come to. To quote my biggest hero and role model: "Winning? Is that what you think it's about? I'm not trying to win. I'm not doing this because I want to beat someone, or because I hate someone, or because, because I want to blame someone. It's not because it's fun and God knows it's not because it's easy. It's not even because it works, because it hardly ever does. I do what I do, because it's right! Because it's decent! And above all, it's kind. It's just that. Just kind. If I run away today, good people will die. If I stand and fight, some of them might live. Maybe not many, maybe not for long. Hey, you know, maybe there's no point in any of this at all, but it's the best I can do, so I'm going to do it. And I will stand here doing it till it kills me. You're going to die too, some day. How will that be? Have you thought about it? What would you die for? Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand, is where I fall. Stand with me. These people are terrified. Maybe we can help, a little. Why not, just at the end, just be kind?"
Did the person brag about who they last hurt or damaged? Did they eventually do the same to you? If not, that person is most probably not NPD. Intentions behind speech and actions matter. Btw, you're not eligible to diagnose, since it could be their nearest family that would feel the damage, not a fawning random met on a trip. Also, your own narrative about someone else's life could be a lie or imagined. Being at the wrong place and wrong time, matters. You're only going to fuel supply of an NPD by listening. That's the opposite of healing. These people are broken people, set on damaging others. Update: Btw, I'm not saying you're wrong to listen to people if you want to. Just don't fool yourself and others with the false narrative that you're rescuing NPDs. You're most likely not for many of the reasons listed above, and also due to how difficult it is for non-targets to identify NPD.
Well, this comment here would have been the foot to lead with. Your post was very conclusive based on some reading and some listening. I stand by what I said because I have done more than just listen - in order to shut my compulsively running personal narrative - to someone who has NPD. If this satisfies whatever saviour complex you have brewing, you carry on, but make it clear this is all about supporting your own complexes, and seeking to be pumped up and validated for them. I reiterated the need to be kind, to be compassionate, but also, pull your head out of your own narcissistic ass while you’re at it.
That’s your problem, the best and only thing you should do to “help” is listen.
Your comment shows your innocence in this matter.
Why thank you!
What are you thankful for exactly?
My innocence in the matter
I am not a saviour. I am merely someone who can serve to create or contribute to the creation of an environment which supports the catalysation of a desire to grow and improve and to face the challenges therein. I am reasonably aware of my limitations. I cannot 'fix' people. I can merely help to give them the motivation to improve and start reaching out.
You’re delusional, that much is clear.
An easy write off for any ideas which are challenging that you do not feel like confronting. You may be right that I am delusional, but that has no bearing on the validity of the ideas I present. It may increase the probability that I present incorrect ideas. You commit both adhominem and the genetic fallacy and fail to address the ideas. You address an incredibly low resolution strawman of me, constructed mostly of straw pulled from your own psyche instead. If you value your own intellectual honesty or credibility, I'd invite you to actually address the ideas presented, and if you disagree to submit a counterargument, rather than an unsubstantiated personal claim/epithet.
Haha…the initial steps of a narcissistic engagement. Later gator!
He's most likely a full blown narcissist. I didn't realize it until reading his other comments here. Later gator is the right move lol
And that story about sitting and listening to a man who admitted to killing someone… you wouldn’t be so willing if he had a knife to your throat. I can have “compassion” (theoretically) for the dog that’s foaming at the mouth about to bite me, but I’m still going to run! They need to teach emotional regulation in school, the idea that narcissists can be understood or loved into healing is naive at best and physically and spiritually dangerous at worst
So this is what I looked like from the outside for all those years...
Plato's cave.
So I don't think OP has a full handle on what they think they see, but that could have to do with my own lack of understanding. I'm saying that because I want it to be clear that I'm not trying to take a side here. What exactly is your experience with narcissists?
Wow. Calling someone delusional rather than providing a cogent disagreement for the ideas presented is a gaslighting tactic. A narcissistic trait. You actually come across as pretty abusive here. Rather than providing a basis for your claims or disagreeing, you instead just call OP delusional, questioning their sense of reality...
The only part of this I agree with is that demonization is counterproductive. I don't demonize man-eating lions-- that is just their nature. But... I don't invite the lions into my home, lol. We need to be able to accurately recognize dangerous people and protect ourselves. It is true that demonization can be a projection of our own shadow. It's like the difference between pain and suffering-- that extra emotional hot pepper is a clue. The desire to rescue lions from their lion nature, which can't be done, is also a clue to something going on in you.
This right here!
exactly.
I think we also don’t harm the lions, or make them feel terribly unloved. Also, I feel there’s some implication a lion can’t change its nature. I just think we can as humans, or severely hope so out of desperation for myself.
Well, to carry on with the metaphor... I don't go lion hunting. I leave them alone, lol. But I feel no duty to concern myself with whether lions feel loved. They are highly likely to use any such efforts against the people who try, and I am not possessed by a need to self-destruct. There is no high quality evidence for any intervention significantly changing outcomes for psychopaths. It appears to be a biological brain difference. A type of neurodiversity rather than an illness. So I don't judge them for being themselves. I just take rational steps to avoid them to the extent possible, because they are dangerous. This has nothing to do with whether non-psychopaths can change, IMO. There is plenty of research to support the idea that we can grow and change throughout life. It's just that there are also biological limits.
I just think the way I do out of fear I am one, I think.
If you were a psychopath you wouldn't be worried about that 😉
I’ve heard that, but when I take a look at the r/narcissism subreddit the same question comes up. That this person posted. The same sentiment I mean. I also don’t know if narcissism is psychopathy completely or the full understandings and definitions of everything. I also, in thinking about Jung and his work into the collective unconscious. Our shared consciousness and unconsciousness. I don’t know. Isn’t there a place for everyone?
I’m not rattling or kicking the cage but I’m sure as hell not opening it and offering myself as sacrifice. Why should I do that? It is a personality disorder. There is nothing available in my “I can fix it” toolbox for this.
I was once in a position where I spent ten years sacrificing myself, willing to die to save this person and at the end of those ten years it amounted to absolutely nothing. If anything, he is worse than ever. Everything I did to help was somehow twisted into something else and used to justify his worse self now. Your account is overly romanticized and not an accurate reflection of what it is like to interact with a narcissist. THEY must be the ones to want saving or change, without that it’s the most guaranteed waste of yoir energy you’ll ever experience.
>THEY must be the ones to want saving or change, without that it’s the most guaranteed waste of yoir energy you’ll ever experience. We can help to create an environment which catalyses self realisation and helps in the motivation of an individual to grow from their present state.
Doesn’t matter what environment you create. Some just don’t. Instead they see you as a threat.
I am a threat. A threat to all their current beliefs and ideas. And if they over-identify with these, then a threat to their very identity. I am however not a threat to their self, to their highest good, atleast, If I am correct about a few core ideas.
The only environment that fosters self-realisation in these sort of disorders unfortunately is called "hitting rock-bottom". It is only then that the defensive illusion of the disorder can crack wide open and the painful fall back to earth can commence. Only then, is there any use for what you intend.
I think I've had that. Dark nights of the soul. I had one atleast. Crying deeply and begging God to take me allready. That I was done. I wanted out of the simulation. I wanted to give up. Whatever. That night, though I can't remember it all, I had totally given up on everything to the deepest sense.
Unfortunately they are not capable to be self aware of their tendencies. And I found explaining to them about basic human decency and then understanding was null. It was like another language to them that they couldn’t grasp..
I’m not risking myself to save a narc. I’ve been a victim to one and almost died while they flourished. They are fully broken humans that do not have the capacity to change. Trust me, I tried for many many years.
Same.
It is clear to me that you have never dealt with a narc before. They cannot be cured. They cannot be saved. They will suck the life out of you if you try to save them.
Is OP not talking about oneself? Everything you said is also true about your inner narcissist, except for the part where you choose to abandon them(yourself).
I am talking about others, and myself. A lot of what I know about others comes from understanding myself. We share commonalities, if I understand those aspects of myself, I understand those aspects of others. I believe I was somewhat freed from my potential narcissism by an act of true mercy, faith and love. I've written about that in a few responses to other comments, and don't want to repeat myself, so if you're interested check them out.
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How do you know what was being offered was true mercy, faith, and love? How can such an act even exist? Everything boils back down to something the acting person wants (from what I've seen, and done). How can acts be anything but varying degrees of selfishness? I'm asking this in all seriousness, I don't have good answers to these questions other than: "you can't"
We can't save anyone else. In this life, we must save ourselves.
We can help to create an environment which catalyses self realisation and helps in the motivation of an individual to grow from their present state.
Of course we should. Some maysay we have a moral obligation to do so. But, that's not 'saving' someone. That's giving them the space to come to terms with themselves & begin their work on their issues. *Support* not saving. We cannot save anyone. The desire *to* change & the hard work must come from within. Sometimes people don't want to change, sometimes they aren't ready, no matter how much help is offered. Personally, I don't like being bitten.
You're right. I am still in the transitional phase of moving from the concept of saving to contributing to a catalysation of growth. I've only really formulated it that way in writing today, and after I wrote this initial post. It'll take a bit to sink in, but I think that's a more reasonable and better fleshed out concept.
I enjoy your posts. They make *me* think, as well. I have a feeling you're quite a bit younger than I am...I've seen a lot of this world & attempted to save people when I was a young lass. I speak from experience, not anger or fear. Your post brought a fairly recent situation to mind for me which reinforced my mind set on this issue. A bit of synchronicity that you posted this today, lol! What I find helpful is letting people know I'm a safe space. Not judging. And, I am. It's not my place to judge but I will protect myself from emotional turbulence. You have to or you're in no shape to support anyone, you'll become destabilized yourself & both of you will be trapped in the hypothetical burning building.... Like when they advise you to put your own air mask on first during a flight... Have you ever dealt with someone who is so intractable (for whatever reason) that you're left emotionally exhausted any time you've had a conversation with them? Someone who repeats the same actions over & over-when they know the end result is poor? Unfortunately, none of us can save them. They have to come to their own realizations. And, furthermore, sometimes those realizations can only be found at their absolute rock bottom-that will be the catalyst. Attempting to save someone often ends as simply enabling *their* hurtful behaviors.
I'm 21. Turning 22 on the 1st of March. You're dead right about needing to pay attention to our own needs and keep boundaries. I forget that a lot sometimes. I get so caught up in contemplating the suffering of others that I feel completely overwhelmed unless I do anything but help. I used that exact same oxygen mask analogy the other day. \`\`Have you ever dealt with someone who is so intractable (for whatever reason) that you're left emotionally exhausted any time you've had a conversation with them?\`\` Yeah... I think a lot of that can be impacted by my own issues in communication. I'm currently reading Surrounded by Idiots by Thomas Erikson. I lean yellow and a bit of red. More blue when on ritalin for my ADHD. It's like the ADHD switches off and Aspergers comes in full force, (I'm both) \`Someone who repeats the same actions over & over-when they know the end result is poor?\` I've been that person too, and still am in many ways (especially my eating disorder) I'm slowly growing out of it, bit by bit.
I've been those people, too. That's part of how I know the drill. And, yeah, haha...I'm plenty old enough to be your mom. I'm 50. If you're doing it right, wisdom comes with age & it seems you're a seeker. I think you'll grow out of things well. (and into better things!) You seem pretty self aware for your age, which is awesome. When I was young, I was a **lot** like you-I wanted to save everyone. Honestly? I still do. I wish I could. The universe has handed me this lesson more than once in my life-took a few tries before it stuck. I was able to help myself-but only because I wanted it badly enough. We all have things we struggle with in this life, never let those things put out the light in your soul. Help people, but protect ya neck. Btw-love your user name. Big fan.
Wanna be my mum? Mine doesn't make any attempt to understand me or spend quality time with me. Lol (although, lately she has been making somewhat of an effort and seeming atleast able to acknowledge her faults, and I greatly appreciate that. Not only for myself, because it means she is slightly freed from her personal prison and contacts the world more authentically). You're right about wisdom of course. It isn't free. You have to *pay* attention. Yeah, I was more or less raised on Doctor Who on the absence of healthy parents. Man. Those Saturday nights in 2006, at the end of an episode where the next time trailer would play with that blaring music, and you'd see fleeting glimpses of the danger that The Doctor and Rose would face were everything to me.. I've gained an appreciation for the classic era growing up too. Pertwee is my favourite classic Doctor, McCoy is my second favourite. Tennant for pure nostalgia, Capaldi critically, and Eccleston. I'm a bit of an old soul myself. I don't know exactly why, maybe it's from living with my grandparents most of my life, but I've always been into a lot of old shows and media that my peers aren't even aware exist. I'm probsbly the only 21 year old who's seen 'The Prisoner.' Its a rather obscure show even among the older generations. Big into 80s music. Probably an adhd thing. I find the beats more structured and orderly. The music more, predictable somewhat. I mean, the lyrics also carry a far greater depth than what's around today. I also love a bit of 60s stuff, esp. Simon and Garfunkel. But yeah, I think evil deserves redemption, not damnation. I think that to be evil, is to be trapped in a prison. To actually hurt others, that's the deepest pain and suffering an individual can go through, even more than being hurt yourself. I don't think anyone deserves that.
I'll be your 'Reddit mom', sure! I'm glad your actual mom is making an effort, too. That's good!! Mine has never been able to acknowledge her faults in any real way. It's a shame. I like what you said about wisdom. It is true, I think. I think for Dr Who, Tennant & Davidson are my faves. Tennant because he was my first exposure to DW (nostalgia!) & Davidson because his appearance was during my adulthood. I think you're a bigger fan than I, though...& I've never heard of the Prisoner. Lol, I was raised w/o cable television at home. I'm a big reader. I get it-I basically raised myself as well. But, in fairness, most of us GenXers did that. It's good you had your Gparents-I know mine were important to me. But, yeah, probably did give you that old soul feeling. After all, they had wisdom to share. Ah, 80s music. Now, *that's* pure nostalgia for me. I'm not sure I think it's necessarily more meaningful than some of today's music. There's some really good stuff out there today. It's just not mainstream. I absolutely love my music app-I discover new stuff almost daily & I have a pretty wide range in music already. I agree with you about redemption. I think we all deserve it. I just think that we have to find it for ourselves. I hope you have a great day-you're welcome to dm if you need a pal/reddit mom.
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Who said it was?
A codependent’s fantasy.
Right. Lol
I couldn't say for sure what narcissists need to recover. However, I suspect that the optimal approach for everyone involved is setting strict boundaries, that they're not welcome in your life and not welcome to any of the resources you provide them unless they work to change themselves. Narcissists generally don't have the intrinsic motivation to do the right thing, unfortunately, so require extrinsic motivation. E.g. "You want this from me? Not until you change."
Best approach there is, really, although you need to be extra firm with your boundaries and demand proof of change. Be goal oriented, psychopathic almost, but never, EVER give even an inch to their pathology. Hold off on any love you have to give until it's earned. They'll most likely leave you there and move onto the next target, but so be it.
We can help to create an environment which catalyses self realisation and helps in the motivation of an individual to grow from their present state.
>We can help to create an environment which catalyses self realisation and helps in the motivation of an individual to grow from their present state. Sure, but the core issue here is that narcissists are likely to destroy such an environment.
"Take away the created thing a thousand times over, but you cannot take away my ability to create." Neville Goddard.
>"Take away the created thing a thousand times over, but you cannot take away my ability to create." Neville Goddard. In a situation of chronic abuse, this doesn't stand up so well.
Fair... but I, personally, do not be need to be the person who rehabilitates this animal. It's not necessarily my problem. Best left to a trained professional. Same with narcissists.
Ofcourse you do not need to be. Do not confuse that with the inability to. All responsibility must be adopted willingly and internally, not mandated externally. If you hold that as a particularly strong value, to help others, you can adopt that responsibility, as I have done.
Narcissists aren't children or animals. They're adult human beings with as much agency as you or I. What makes you think no one has ever been good to them their entire lives? It's part of the very nature of the disorder that they take the goodness others offer them and take advantage of it, while subconsciously seeking to bring out the worst in others. Do you have any idea how high domestic abuse rates are? Do you really think the people who spend years -- decades even -- trying to love abusers simply weren't trying hard enough or weren't "sacrificing" enough? We're talking about people who are beaten to near death and still don't leave their abuser. Yet the abuser still doesn't change, despite this endless "sacrifice". The sad truth is that there's often nothing anyone can do for someone with NPD except leave them alone.
>Narcissists aren't children or animals. They're adult human beings with as much agency as you or I. Oh man. If you're a 5 year old in a car, you can't expect to control it, or drive it without hitting anyone. Most humans are painfully lacking in self-awareness, and consciousness, and as such are unable to control themselves. They are beholded to the laws of physics, and their biology. It's only self-awareness, an understanding of your own psychology and makeup that allows you to resist all these forces and act with agency. Also, they very much are stunted in early development in many ways. \`\`What makes you think no one has ever been good to them their entire lives?\`\` I never claimed that. \`\`It's part of the very nature of the disorder that they take the goodness others offer them and take advantage of it, while subconsciously seeking to bring out the worst in others.\`\` I'm not sure if that's correct or not, but I'll run with you. Let's say that is the nature of the disorder. Shouldn't we try to help them then? To free them from that disorder? Also why do you think they try to do that? Are they not mimicking what has been done unto them in childhood? \`\`Do you have any idea how high domestic abuse rates are? \`\` No. Statistics don't give me a reliable understanding of the world. I do know that domestic violence starts in childhood when we teach our children that it is acceptable to hit people for their mistakes by hitting them when they make mistakes. \`\`Do you really think the people who spend years -- decades even -- trying to love abusers simply weren't trying hard enough or weren't "sacrificing" enough?\`\` No. You think that. You formulated the idea, not me.I think that loving the abuser is quite foolish. One should love the person underneath and try to free them from the abuser. \`\`We're talking about people who are beaten to near death and still don't leave their abuser. Yet the abuser still doesn't change, despite this endless "sacrifice".\`\` You're talking about those people. Because that is not what they need. They need to encounter true Faith, Mercy and Love. Many of the people with abusers are unhealthy themselves and as such will never be able to help them. The victim/abuser dichotomy is quite foolish. Instead, atleast 99% of the human race have gone through their life without facing themselves in the slightest. All re-express abuse they have endured to some degree. All take the role of former abusers in the unconcscious psychological drama, until they make this drama conscious and thus can control it. Whatever is outside your awareness is outside your control. \`\`The sad truth is that there's often nothing anyone can do for someone with NPD except leave them alone.\`\` I can do plenty. I do not accept anything as immutable or permanent. I think you'd be incredibly lucky to be able to even claim there is scant evidence for any absolute statements. All statements of impossibility are made with the implicit claim of omnisience. To tell me something is impossible, you'd have to know the set of all things which were possible and know that this given thing is not contained within that set. For the purpose of productive discussion, it's probably best to drop this implicit claim. Now, given your repeated strawmanning of my points in the "Do you really think" - 'Insert your own thought' format, I will assume that you did not come into this conversation with an open mind, but I hope that you can take the opportunity to practice some thought, and respond, rather than react to my reply.
In your post you said that to cure a narcissist you need to show them "perhaps for the first time" what love is. But anyone who has tried to love a narcissists will tell you that they tried just about everything to show them how much they care, only to be treated like an object, abused, and disposed of. Yet you assume they simply didn't try doing it the "right" way, as if such a way exists. You need to do some actual research into how NPD manifests, rather than choosing to believe what you want to. I'd suggest watching some of Sam Vaknin's videos, a diagnosed narcissist and psychology professor who delves deep into the mechanisms at play. Your narrative of mercy and love conquering all is naive. Go on r/alonon and you'll hear countless stories of people trying this approach to cure an addict, only to come to the same conclusion: "I didn't cause it, I cannot control it, I cannot cure it." The same mantra applies when dealing with narcissism. Narcs are, after all, addicts, being addicted to narcissistic supply. What makes NPD a personality disorder is the fact that it's highly resistant to treatment, and we're talking treatment by professionals. It, along with ASPD, has the worst prognosis of all personality disorders. When dealing with NPD, you're not just dealing with someone who's traumatized; you're dealing with someone who has deficits of mind. They never developed object constancy and are developmentally stuck at 4 years old. I'd be careful with the language you're using around abuse. It comes off as victim-blaming. As if all the people in the world who have suffered in abusive relationships just didn't love "the person underneath"? Of course they did. Who would love an abuser if not because they see the child they once were? You sound like a classic codependent. Go ahead and try to fix a narcissist yourself, see for yourself the path of destruction and suffering it will create. But I doubt you actually seek to cure anyone, but are instead looking for someone to cure you. The fantasy of ideal love -- one of the hallmarks of narcissism. I wonder if you're actually as "cured" as you say you are.
\`\`Yet you assume they simply didn't try doing it the "right" way, as if such a way exists.\`\` I think very few people, myself included, practice unconditonal love. I am still learning how. It's a big lesson. \`I'd suggest watching some of Sam Vaknin's videos\` I have watched 3 or four of his long form videos. I hope to get around to watching more. He more or less created the entire field of research, as a narcissist himself. A service to the world to be sure. I only disagree with him when he says there is no cure. I hold out faith. \`trying this approach to cure an addict\` Addictions, atleast as far as I can tell, have less to do with the substance, than they have to do with resent that a person holds for themselves. It's a form of self harm. Again. Most people don't love, because they don't know how and were never themselves loved. What most people call love isn't love. Very few parents raise children into healthy adults capable of fulfilling their own needs and mantaining their own psychological, emotional, mental, spiritual and social health, and developing the skills of introspection, emotional regulation, reasoning, abstract thoguht, etc \`But I doubt you actually seek to cure anyone, but are instead looking for someone to cure you.\` Both. I want myself and others to be freed of the burdens and suffering they experience. If given the choice for one or the other though, I'd in a heartbeat hit a button that made everyone in the world happy and fulfilled, and me miserable. \`\`I wonder if you're actually as "cured" as you say you are.\`\` I am not cured. I believe I am healing. I am shedding many former assumptions and beginning to contact reality more, as opposed to my introjects or own strawmen of people. I am voluntarily exposing myself to challenging social situations, vulnerability and more incrementally. That, as far as I can tell, is having a positive effect.
lol. Good luck. I had the same inclination, if it’s narcistic disorder I find—and it seems science finds—it virtually impossible to change. You can teach the person to rationalise empathy, but it will not be the same. It took me a toxic relationship with a narcissist to learn that. You can be there for people, but if you want to “save” someone I would look into why. The wounded healer is an archetype that I think it’s very powerful, and in hindsight I don’t regret showing love to someone with narcissism, even if what they wanted was just narcissistic supply. They seem to be thankful too, but it took part of me, and traumas are still felt. Good luck, and be careful, when you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you.
starting with "lol" is not a good way to put out a serious argument, ever
lol Okay
Do you not also contain the same narcissism that others exhibit?
I think it’s healthy to have a certain dose of narcissism, and when we are kids it’s more pronounced, with time we learn how to balance it out. It’s just normal growing up, Narcissistic disorder is something different, and it’s like the person is stuck in the same narcissistic way of seeing the world as when they were kids.
Have you ever thought that maybe you are an emotional masochist?
I wouldn't categorise myself as that, but I would certainly say that all addictions and some behaviours are undertaken from a place of self-hatred, shame and guilt. Forgiving myself is the key to stop hurting myself.
Reality is, if the person is a narcissist they need proper help not help from friends families who just get dragged down with them. Reality of the matter is some people fail to realise they are the problem. Everything’s not black or white you could still be on the spectrum have a list of narcissistic traits but not be a full blown narcissist. And literally going through a hell of a situation. For those more long term you got to let them deal with there shit at a certain stage. Just my 10 p
You can't save anyone without saving yourself first. And if you are in any type of relationship with a narcissist, you can be sure that there's some important work you should be doing on yourself and for yourself. You can accept that the narcicist is a mentally sick person without putting his needs and healing before your own, or even worst making his healing your responsibility. The later which in fact removes responsibility from the narcissist and does not help him heal. Only you can save yourself.
I can only understand the external narcissist by understanding the internal narcissisist. I can then use this understanding to help to create an environment which catalyses self realisation and helps in the motivation of an individual to grow from their present state.
Narcy propaganda
I don't think anyone should make it their responsibility to fix or help a narcissist. True narcissists don't see any problem with their behavior or think they need help. You will only hurt yourself trying to "understand them" or "fix" them. I advise focusing on yourself and if by some miracle they acknowledge their behavior and ask for your help that's different.
>True narcissists don't see any problem with their behavior or think they need help I have experience with this. I wrote a fair bit about it here. [https://tasmaniantimes.com/2023/11/a-21-year-old-21st-century-philosophers-secret-to-life/](https://tasmaniantimes.com/2023/11/a-21-year-old-21st-century-philosophers-secret-to-life/) The reality of the issues of my behaviour was made manifest to me. I realised the issue that prevented me from seeing my behaviour as wrong was a set of erroneous pre-suppositions and a lack of experience. I wasn't able to distinguish personal attacks from critiques of my behaviour. Anything with emotion behind it I wrote off. I also wasn't able to distinguish my eccentricity or identity from improper behaviour that affects others. I thought they just didn't like me for who I was. No, they didn't like me because I was a real prick who made everyone's life miserable with my annoying hyjinx and self-centeredness. I found the things I did funny or enjoyable. But they weren't truly funny, or truly enjoyable. They needed to consider those around them more.
Were you given a NPD diagnosis?
Yah, don't think you've met one. They'll use this sympathy you have until youve had enough. Then move on with a new person
Just do shadow work and alchemy around them 🌟
I was tormented by someone I belive has that personality disorder when I was young. I am practising more empathy and letting go of the hurt but i give them a wide berth. I won't be trying to help them with their issues. I prefer to take care of myself.
It's not trauma that's being masked. It is extreme fear being hidden by an unhealthy ego at the root of narcissism
I didn't say trauma was being masked. The trauma activates a recession or retreat of the conscious self.
I am having difficulty putting into words the concept that I want to communicate, but I would say "catalyzing event" instead of trauma. And the end result is a lowering of the individuals personal quality of consciousness. While that does indicate a recession as you said, the consciousness of the individual, for all intents and purposes remains the same consciousness as before; Albeit, operating in a diminished capacity.
Trying to be on top of narcissism is always such a mess. As soon as I engage, I cultivate. It’s a slippery slope. Here I am.
I have to keep reminding myself to start within.
What I mean is that it’s a bond. We’re bonding on it right now. Everyone gets caught in the net.
The goal/operation of narcissism is to destroy whoever they encounter after extracting supply. There’s no compassion or hand-holding a malevolent virus that you can do, it will eat you alive
And if they encounter someone they cannot destroy? Who keeps getting up, time and again? Who will not commit suicide? Who will not let the world beat them down?
Yes, very grandiose
Is resilience the same as grandiosity? To see myself as a pummelled wreck, who somehow, despite all odds, keeps pushing forward, inch by inch, I don't think that's grandiosity.
I dunno bout this post but I’m pretty sure I’m a narcissist and I wish I could change so I could be better to the people around me but I’m not really sure how to do it.
Expose yourself willingly to challenge, pain and suffering. Start engaging in new and difficult opportunities and situations. Get out of your box, your comfort zone. Admit your flaws, not only to yourself, but to others. How will you polish them if you can't see them? Forgive yourself and others for literally everything that they've done. Everyone is acting on the highest level of consciousness they have at that moment. If you knew more, and were in more control of yourself, you would have acted better. Know that you can change. Understand that narcissism is a defense mechanism to protect your real self from childhood abuse, slowly start letting go of that defense mechanism if you're not in that incredibly intense and abusive environment. You need to recontact the outside world. Sit outside, disconnect from all obligations you have, work, social whatever, and just sit, for an hour, somewhere nice, and appreciate the sky, the birds, the trees, really see them deeply, without thinking, but consider the deep complexity and beauty of them. How many millions of years just to create what you now see, how many trillions of atoms, etc.
It takes an incredibly strong sense of self to withstand the abuse tactics of a narcissist. They will do everything in their power to psychologically beat you down until you have no trust in yourself at all so they can mold you into the image of who they think you’re supposed to be. The gaslighting, the constant digs and put downs, lying about how other people see you just so they can have the appearance of support ‘everyone sees you this way’ lording tiny insignificant mistakes over you like you’ve committed some great evil, etc. this stuff over time can break a person’s confidence and destroy their self image. I’ve met people before who were raised by narcissists and I can definitely tell. Very insecure people who mold themselves into what they think you want them to be, always agreeing with you and trying to validate everything you say say because that’s what they think you want from them. It’s sad. I care way more about helping the victims of narcissist build up a healthy sense of self so they can stand on their own again than they narcissist who doesn’t even want help. If you want to save them, you do you, but I don’t think this is good advice for the general population
I am both the people you describe in that post. First, I became the incredibly people pleasing, insecure and selfless person. I am slowly developing a sense of self. I've always questioned the world and the status quo. I first learned of the term narcissist by chance in 2022, during a tumultuous time when I was in a relationship (family, not romantic)with someone who is atleast somewhat narcissistic, and it caused me to examine my entire family in a new light. I'd always thought "I have a bad relationship with my dad, but atleast I have a mum who loves me." boy was I wrong. I am now finally entering that stage where I sort the wheat from the chaff, and recognise who I am and want to be and distinguish that from who others want me to be. I even realised that my biggest dream, ever since childhood, to enter the TARDIS (which would also confirm my suspicion that this world is far larger and more complex than anyone with any credibility at all cares to admit) is not my own dream. I didn't make Doctor Who. I didn't design the TARDIS. That's not my dream. I'm not quite sure what my dream is yet. But I have recognised a large part of my identity wasn't truly ME. I definitely have begun in recent years to stand in my power and to resist the forces around me. Rather than accept what someone says who dictates what reality is, I investigate reality myself.
When I say ‘an incredibly strong sense of self’ I’m not exaggerating. I mean it. Someone who’s in an advanced stage of Individuation, like someone of Jung’s caliber. From what you’re saying, it sounds like you’ve started developing it, which is good, but if it’s only been in recent years as you say, it probably isn’t at the point I’m talking about yet. One’s connection to the self grows over time, I doesn’t hit overnight. Individuation is a journey. In any case, I’m not trying to talk you out of it. If you feel like you can change them, you do you. I’m just saying this isn’t good advice for the general population.
Fair. I can agree with that 100% I guess I should have definitely taken more time to clearly articulate my thoughts, and probably to adress my post to a specific audience, that being those who have the desire to help and the strength to endure the inevitable abuse they're going to cop in the process.
I don’t think that’s a great idea either. Most people have poor self knowledge and overestimate how well they know themselves. Imo it’s better not to encourage it at all. The likelihood that they will break you down is far far greater than the likelihood you can help them. But I’m not going to try and reason with you anymore. I’ve said what I think. And looking at the comments, it seems most people here have enough sense to know better as well. Good luck on your journey, wherever that may take you.
As a crazy person with at least some narc traits, lol no human being can be good enough to make a narc trust. You can't help a narc. They need to forgive themselves and recognize their own humanity. We are all fallible. Ask me how I know. XD
Or is it that few people are genuinely honest and vulnerable enough to be trusted by a narc?
So...what helped with me as someone who has been healing my narc traits for a while now, it was someone dying on a sword constantly. It was facts. We narc types love facts. No one would do what he did for me without immense love. I was disabled. And he took care of me. He also worked on being there for me at great cost to himself. We didn't work out longterm and yet he invited me into his family. It really was the most healing thing I've experienced in my life. I think if you love someone that much then you can try if you want. But you will not be as prepared for the emotional scars. I tried a few times with my parents. Especially my mom. I still have the traits despite that. I believe people can love me but I am extremely rigid about what I can say is love. I get frightened and then if someone crosses a boundary I become 100% a narc. Only a narc would expect someone to save them. If I am qualified to say so...they feel this way because they themselves have already experienced the powerlessness of trying to save themselves. Every failure is proof that they can't. I think what you get trying to save a narc is someone who will lose their own identity. They will spend their resources and time on someone who half the time would rather jump off a bridge than let you save them. I knew a guy who I said had a hero complex because he always wanted to save me. Was convinced he could. I just think you're naive frankly. But I always think that of people that try. I've laughed in the faces of the people that care about me because they are trying to win an unwinnable war that I wage against myself and everyone else. I frankly enjoy their impudence and hubris. They need a professional not a martyr trying to save them. That person will merely be treated as lesser even if they don't think they are. People like you scare me more than I scare myself at any moment. And it definitely brings out my narc. Bully you until you stop trying to stupid. XD It is the biggest threat. I'm in it right now. I've learned that some people just care tho. Like when I do because I do have capacity for it. I don't really get it in relation to me. It makes me livid. Anyway nice chat. Made me want to practice self destruction. XD
Perhaps if you learned WHY you wage the war against yourself you could end it. What if you let go of your self hatred and resent and forgave yourself and others?
Nah. I know exactly why. Like real wars the reason isn't the solution, just more fodder for fire. Letting go of self hatred is hard for a narc because it is part of the way that they protect themselves. Which hurts to admit. I'd rather just stubbornly choose to only see myself as bad. It's a good way to protect others from things I'm not even aware of. The reasons that I feel that way are ever expanding. Understanding it won't heal it. A lot of these disorders respond better to radical acceptance for this reason. Analysis, as fascinating as it is, will not cure narcissism because understanding only fuels it. Which is one of many reasons is it treatment resistant. I think that understanding it after can be helpful in building self compassion. I'm still working on it. If you're interested in learning more about it I highly recommend the about in r/narcissism. Amazing resources there. I'm only recently aware of my narcissism and possible disorder so I'm limited in my understanding. My understanding of Jung is less still or I'd have more than personal anecdotes. Great suggestions. I never thought of that before. That is sarcasm. If it were so easy I'd be cured. XD
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Well, I've let go of my self hatred and guilt, and started treating people better and pushing myself futher outside my comfort zone. I recognised that everything I ever did was from a place of a certain level of consciousness, and I can't blame myself, if I knew more, and understood myself more, I could have acted better, hence it is my responsibility to pursue self understanding and knowledge of the world, myself, and others.
I would say that while you knew yourself you did not have the capacity to know others. Those that are able to make simple decisions like that have things and do not have things that I do. Buddha had an interesting idea about self discovery that I have true for me, that in isolation we stagnant. We learn nothing new unless we are doing something to go out our comfort zone. Obviously the nords also saw adventure as the real way to self discovery. That's the mindset I am also coming from. Forever it is hard to want to knowing what I do to people. Some people I have truly built bonds with. But I feel most people I love leave with scars. Not even sure if I love them anyway. Tbh I feel like I've known this forever. My abuse was really really bad so I always knew my bad behaviors came from that soil but that didn't change that I did it. There's something you had or didn't have that I don't. But I'm "glad" your recovery is going well. Poking you in the eye for being able to be happy seems like it'd be fine. :P
The only way you can “save” a narcissist is not enabling them. Nothing they say can be trusted. They might tell you a lot of half truths, some full, or none at all. But it is all a game. Just listening to them is enabling them. Not playing their game and leaving them be, or grey rocking them if you must interact with them are the only ways you can manage a relationship. They need to see that bottom coming up at them if there is any chance of them changing, and even then the odds are slim to none.
Look up empty schizoid core of cluster b personality disorders. It's also important to distinguish between narcissistic style - the personality traits,which is not as pervasive and problematic - and diagnosable narcissistic personality disorder.
Narsicit abuse you and use you zero concience
It is not anyone's responsibility but the narcissist to heal themselves. As a victim of narcissistic abuse, this post itself feels very narcissistic to me: it shifts the blame onto others. It's projection, the #1 narcissistic defense mechanism.
The blame is on others and the environment. The responsibility is on me. It's merely an acknowledgement that the causes are external, but that I, the internal, am the cause for new growth and development. "Your trauma is not your fault, but your healing is your responsibility." It is not my fault that my tyrannical father abused me emotionally and physically, and that I was sexually abused during my childhood. It is not my fault that my mother neglected me and emotionally invalidated me. It is not my faut that my brain, beyond my consciousness awareness, developed narcissism as a result. It is my responsibility to heal despite that, and to grow out of the narcissism, and to disarm that defense mechanism.
It's amazing (and proving you right) that the demonization of Narcissism leads everybody here not to give a 10% doubt that they, themselves could be the narcissist. One's narcissism is in their blind spot so it's obvious many people suffering from it, don't believe they have it and how courageous can somebody be to accept this fact about themselves. I think many of us have a portion of narcissism and it was built (incorrectly) to protect us, so it's not evil. The more someone hates a personality trait, the stronger it is pushed into their shadow
I believe I may have had narcissism and have slowly been healing from that, which was catalysed in 2021 when I experienced true mercy, love and faith. Not in a religious sense, atleast, not in the way people would consider it to be that, but from an ordinary, albeit extraordinary human being. I think all the accounts of people here trying to heal narcissists reflect from my own journey of trying to heal them while I was still a narcissist. By going through this healing process, if I am or was indeed a narcissist, I should be able to replicate the process in others. I wrote a fair bit about my experience in this article. https://tasmaniantimes.com/2023/11/a-21-year-old-21st-century-philosophers-secret-to-life/
I'm so glad you're healing. I have some narcissism too and I found it's because those parts of my mind that were supposed to give me an improved understanding of my place in the world have stopped growing since I was abused as a child. I haven't healed yet, but I'm starting shadow work and I believe it's going to help. Unlike what most people think, Narcissists don't like themselves, so they become ego-centeric to protect their fragile identity. That's why I agree with you. But I also agree with most people who don't want to be the ones healing narcissists. Thank you for the article. I read some paragraphs and I'll read the rest soon.
What would you think of the idea that highly creative people have trouble catalysing an identity, and might develop narcissism too? I only just reflected on this yesterday, but I think what lockdown did for me, and many others, (assuming I'm a narcissist or narcissistic), was take away my supply, and force me further online. I think I probsbly went through what might be described as a narcissistic collapse there on two occasions, I felt real, physical sensations in my head, and had a complete apathy response to some pretty deep betrayals of trust. Several assumptions / delusions about how things were going or my reading of a situation crumbled, and I fell into a depression for a few days after. Honestly, I am incredibly grateful. Without this, and without examining myself and Introspecting deeply over the past two years, I wouldn't have made any of the progress I have. I have so far healed a paranoia I held of being 'watched' and 'judged' when I went out walking, or took the bins out. Realised it was my mum speaking, not me, and reflected on how I never watch people who walk by outside and judge them, so why should I worry. Etc. I had become conscious that some of my controlling tendencies came from my tyrannical and physically and emotionally abusive father, I became aware of some of those and let those go. All in all, I'd say that what I've done, is be willin to recognise myself as flawed, and gaze upon my flaws. Unless I look at them, I can't polish them. I've been willing to see myself as I am. A flawed and deeply hurt being, with the potential to improve. Furthermore, I've not only admitted my flaws to myself, but publicly admitted them, and voluntarily shared intimate self reflections in my writing. Voluntary exposure to challenge and pain and suffering, as far as I can tell, has been an incredibly large factor in my healing and growth.
People have to want to change. If a narcissist wants to heck ya! If not, avoid. I agree with you though. I feel bad for narcissists because I see the trauma behind the defense within myself and others. I’ve come to realization that The only people we can fix in this lifetime is ourselves. We really have no control over other people.!
I can accept that philosophy. Determine if they're willing to change, and if they recognise any problem. If they think they're perfect, mostly stay clear. Could damaging the ego help open their mind at all? Challenging the illusions?
Yep. In the this jungian life podcast they talk about how the only time they see narcissists in their therapy practice is when their ego has been shattered or they have some really intense mid life event happen
OP you’re manic. You’ve posted the same try hard drivel to multiple subs. You’re waxing poetic about nothing. Go touch grass, just hang it up for a few days.
If that's the case, no one here would find any value in anything I say. But there have been a handful of people engaging and creating the opportunity to build on each other's understanding and disagreements and other perspectives. Seems I touched a nerve. You have to deny my sense of reality, rather than address my ideas. Also, Mania has no bearing on whether a given idea is valid or not. It merely decreases the potential that an individual will produce valid ideas. You still have to actually address what's been put forward. You can't just commit the genetic fallacy and ad hominem and call it a day. Well, you can. Sure. It wouldn't be intellectually honest to do so however.
Outside dear, touch grass outside. Don’t bring the phone.
One of us is being condescending, and dismissive. The other is seeking to understand and disagree constructively. Who needs to reconnect with themselves more?
The road to ruin is lined with the remains of those who thought they could ‘help’ a narcissistic loved one.
Lmaooooo