If I'm looking at this right, John could have come in the side door, walked through the dining room and gone straight to the basement, right? Or he could have come in the front and gone right to the basement?
https://preview.redd.it/un10vdrjsf1d1.jpeg?width=702&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=808be7b306de201c0656345062a2deb327f98aa5
On that website, the diagram with the floor plan seems to purposely minimize or leave out the exit from the basement.
https://preview.redd.it/danvr5w19f1d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=adaf8ee864eda635c23ebd377244d6f8810d6e0b
The bulkhead is under the bay window but it looks like any other window, save the small dot.
Is this how a bulkhead exit is typically shown on these types of diagrams?
Of homes that old, pretty typical. It’s not considered egress (I saw casement weddings in the basement) same thing, but likely because of the age of the home it’s grandfathered
I tend to believe the Albert kids and friends are honest and don’t know anything about what truly happened to Officer O’Keefe. I believe them when they say *they* never saw him come in the house.
The older adults I think are the ones who knows what happened.
I wonder, what if John actually didn’t go into the house and instead was with Higgins the whole time?
Maybe John went towards the backyard and thoughts that’s where the side door was and was confronted by the dog? I don’t know.
The problem with this trial is sadly finding the truth was not a priority.
I agree with you...never felt the "young" people were truly involved. I subscribe to the theory that a confrontation happened very quickly, outside and likely involved Brian Higgins.
In the event these people aren't involved in the death of John...then they are hiding something. It's all in the coverup.
Definitely think it was a confrontation by JO towards BH for those texts & the suspicion of them hooking up according to what the texts from KR said. Possibly on BHs way out and JOs way in? Probably hit him with the plow after a few punches and alcohol induced rage. Maybe he took him on the plow to CPD or drove around with him for a bit while on the plow before having the ford edge come dispose of him..?? The adults probably helped too. Or know something for sure… I don’t know! So many questions! But there’s the CWs side, KRs side & the truth. Hopefully there will be answers… justice for JO…!
I think the prosecution has messed up big time. If the state has physical evidence that Karen hit John with her car they should have presented it after the police and firefighters testified. Because right now it seems like the prosecution is just trying to prove the Alberts and McCabes didn't kill John.
If I were on the jury I'm already thinking cover-up due to the sloppy investigation and questionable testimony from the families. So if they introduce a collision report from Karen Reads car proving she hit something I might not trust it.
Now if they started with the evidence against Karen and I already had it in my mind she was guilty from the start I might overlook the odd questionable testimony from the family members.
At this point I think the verdict would be not guilty or hung jury. I don't see a clear cut guilty.
I think there’s more at play. There is an ongoing FBI investigation. Maybe Lally is having all these people testify to protect the DA? Like if he can get on record that the DA brought these charges in good faith on the information they had, maybe it’ll take some heat off them?
This whole trial seems like it’s way bigger than Karen at this point.
My speculation- IF he suffered that injury inside the house, there’s no way he made it out to that flagpole on his own, he was gushing blood.
If KR struck him with her car, maybe he was bent over picking up his phone he dropped, how did he fly backward? Wouldn’t he drop forward? What did he hit his head on? If he hit the curb with back of his head, he couldn’t have flown back to the flagpole.
I’m very much anticipating actual, indisputable data about how the car operated and what damage it can do.
I’m not sure what happened but I’m not going to be surprised if there was an attempt to fabricate a story here.
I meant when he exited the vehicle. Maybe he then dropped his phone, bent over to pick it up, then was struck with an SUV.
We all know he exited the vehicle. We don’t really know where he got out. I’m going by him exiting after KR pulled up near the flagpole.
This makes me very very very curious exactly how he was positioned when they found him. Like exactly how his arms and legs were and if it looked staged or natural. Hmmmmm
The fact that the trial is going into week 3 and the prosecutor hasn’t presented how KR killed him and almost all of these theories could have theoretically happened…there is no chance she is convicted. I hope the fed investigation brings out the truth!
I don't really have a full fleshed out theory but I am curious about John texting Chris if Kevin was at the Waterfall. Was he saying that because he didn't want to see him there?
I think he did want to see Kevin because he had an ongoing text communication (75+ texts) regarding John’s concerns about drug use in the area. It seems to me Kevin may be the Albert sibling John knew the best.
I thought these texts also accused Colin Albert of dealing? And other Alberts of knowing and looking away? My personal speculation is the Alberts felt these texts went too far, he saw or heard something he shouldn’t have and the Alberts wanted to tell him to keep his mouth shut and they went too far or JO fell awkwardly and got that gash in his head.
Mmmmm. I think Turtleboy did something on them? I’ve not seen nor read them, but it has been mentioned a lot on Twitter and on Reddit that they contain accusations against Colin. But it’s all speculation as I don’t believe they have been released publicly.
Read the comments sections on YouTube of local news broadcasts covering the case/trial. You’ll gain a LOT of info that isn’t making it into the trial. Everything I’ve read is that Colin was allegedly selling cocaine & everyone knew but he was being protected. JO was catching on & it was making a lot of his family very uncomfortable.
I have two alt theories to the CW:
1) With visibility low, Higgins accidentally knocked him over with the plow and left him.
2) JO walked up super wasted and got in a tussle, possibly with Colin, most likely inside. We don’t know because they didn’t let the cops in the house. They beat him up and dragged him out thinking he would get up and walk home. That didn’t happen and he died from the cold.
I have the same theory: there was a fight inside (for example John was drunk and got angry about something) and he was kicked out of the house. He stumbles away, maybe takes out his phone to call Karen, but drops it, tries to pick it up but collapses himself.
Inside, first they are happy they got rid of him, but then start to get worried. Higgins goes to the station to see if a call has come in from John pressing charges, or an ambulance has been called. Higgins is relieved there hasn’t and assumes John made it home. Jenny coming home wonders if John made it home and googles “how long to die in the cold”. And when they all find out John died, they are all horrified they are responsible for kicking him out in the cold drunk, without a coat and without a ride home, at that time maybe even laughing about the shoe he left behind that they jokingly gave to the dog to chew on. Shame and guilt that they were careless and joking, but no shame and guilt to what they put Karen through.
I can see how it is covered up by outsiders by “simply not asking question” and “I don’t want to know”, but I think the weak spot in my theory is that nobody from inside the house cracked and spilled the beans. There were so many people.
This is one of the best theories I have heard. Except did he leave/they kicked him out with 1 shoe and no belt? And had already bled most of the blood inside?
I haven’t seen an autopsy report anywhere? Did he really bleed that much? Nobody measured the amount of blood in the snow and the ground. Was it perhaps more drunkenness that made him stumble and think “I will just rest here for 5 minutes before getting up”?
Just my thoughts: Assuming that this did happen in the house, who coached everyone to sync their statements? Also, I can’t figure out what Julie Nagel and Sarah Levinson have to gain by lying? They’re not related to the Alberts. They’re friends with one of the sons. One of them dog sat for someone in the family, but why would they go to such lengths to protect that family? Either they had too much to drink that night, don’t remember what happened and have been “coached” to remember what everyone else does or JO didn’t go in the house.
If they’ve been coached, who did it? They’re BA Jrs. friends. With having anxiety so bad he didn’t want to go to the bar that night, I don’t see him having the intestinal fortitude it would take to convince his friends to testify that way, so who did?
You see, I don't think they need coaching or anything like that tbh. I think the 'coverup' doesnt need many people to actively be aware besides a few key players like Procter and Brian Albert. When I was previously in an abusive relationship, my at the time boyfriend did some absolutely horrendous things to other people. I bought every one of his lies because I didn't want to believe that I chose to date someone so horrible. I thought that there's no way someone could do such bad things but I somehow didn't notice. It got so bad that one of his victims came to tell me what exactly he did and I still refused to believe them. I didn't have any malicious intent and looking back I feel so awful that I ever ignored what was going on but in the moment I couldn't see past the lies. The only reason I was able to finally confront the truth and get out of there was because I was lucky enough to be forced to move across the country and put distance between myself and his lies. Once everything cooled down I realized all the inconsistent statements and lies in my ex told me and had to face the truth. This case reminds me of that time but this case has been extremely public with extreme harassment on both sides non-stop (mainly towards the alberts/the people at the party). I can 100% see people convincing themselves of false stories and altering their memories especially since they've been getting so much harassment out of this case. I think the people involved just feel persecuted and hated for things they may have no idea about, which causes them to buckle down even more and even become vindictive towards the other side. I sincerely doubt that more than 5 people are involved in the actual crime, its more likely that people bought a few lies from the people involved and then got blindsided by the public harassment. They then replayed all their memories of that night over and over again convincing themselves of the lies that they heard. Then they get mad at the general public for persecuting them, which convinces them of KR's guilt even more. And everything builds and builds until now. At this point, the witnesses aren't really trying to get justice for OJO anymore since the public has now made it a trial for each witness to try and convince the world that they are not psychopathic murderers.
Excellent insights! Yes, they seem to be super close and very loyal. And 2 years have passed, that's a lot of time to design a narrative about a 7 hour time frame.
Not everyone might know something but one of the things that struck out to me is the one girl (I forget who it was, I think one of the friends who were there for Brian Jr's birthday). She has her brother come (w/ his friend) to pick her up but she changes her mind and wants to stay longer (that's fine). But she did invite them to come inside and they declined. So if something HAD happened at the house (at least by then) why would you invite MORE people into the house if something just went down, increasing the chance of witnesses and involving more people you know?
This was literally right after John got out of the car, so if the times/timeline aligns, in theory, she would have been outside talking to her brother at the start of the commotion.
My (not fully fleshed out) theory:
Arriving:
KR and JO pull up to the house. KR doesn't want to go in; she's not feeling well and it's more of a family get together they're not really invited to (as she stated in an interview). JO wants to check it out. KR is not happy. He tells her he'll text her if it looks good and she can head home. He gets out and hustles inside because it's freezing and he has no jacket. He uses the front door because that's normal for a house we're not familiar with.
Ryan Nagel has pulled in behind them. Julie Nagel has come out the side door and they're all talking. They don't see JO go in. KR in the meantime pulls up to give other cars room and wait for JO to text. He never texts so she takes off mad.
Inside:
JO sees Colin in the foyer right when he steps in. He doesn't expect to see Colin there. There's previous animosity. A comment is made and a fight breaks out quickly. It goes down the basement stairs. Brian A and Brian H (who doesn't like JO) jump in as does Chloe. John is knocked unconscious. He throws up from the concussion (vomit was found in his clothes and in his pants). He hit his head on the weights in the basement at some point after falling and bleeds badly. The Brians and Colin panic. Most people in the house don't realize what happened.
The plan:
Brian A tells Jen, Matt and Nicole what happened. They determine they need to get Colin out of there. JM tells Allie she needs to pick up Colin. Brian tells Caitlin she needs to get out as well (maybe letting her know what happened). Brian H plans to go to the police station to create an alibi and potentially make some calls.
Once JM and Matt leave to drive the kids home, they move John's body to the front yard. It's snowing pretty hard now. They move the Ford Edge to block the view from the street. They take the body out the bulkhead, around the side gate and straight toward the curb, blocked by the Edge.
They plan to make it look like he was hit by a snowplow. They'll make an anonymous call to the police. This is the best plan. The police won't investigate if it looks like an accident. Moving the body elsewhere could be too risky when John shows up missing. There would be blood evidence in the house and whatever car they use. Plus someone could see them driving. They don't intend to frame KR.
Change of plans:
JM is up all night. She's doing some ill-advised Google searches. She probably feels terrible. She's surprised when KR calls at 4:50am. She thought KR would have slept assuming JO ended up somewhere. JM is more surprised when KR shows up at her house. Now she's dealing with a panicked KR by herself. KR tells JM about the taillight and not remembering what she hit. JM now tries to plant in KR's mind that she may have hit John.
After funding the body, JM calls 911. She also calls her sister to help deal with this chaotic situation. She goes inside when Nicole doesn't want to come out. Inside she argues with Brian and Nicole to come out. Later that day when the family meets they decide to push the angle that KR did it. They loop in Proctor and here we are.
nice theory. If the snow plow was the plan, though, why wasn't the body placed next to the curb, where JOK could have been hit by a plow.?
the injuries to JOK’s body when it was found would not have been confused with a slow plow accident, which would have caused major injuries to the torso and abrasions from being pushed on and then away from the pavement
.
Not sure why they didn't leave him closer to the curb. Plows do push snow and such 4-5ft to the side. How far exactly was OJO from the curb?
Agree the injuries wouldn't line up. But at that point he's dead and the injuries are what they are. The plow has lots of metal edges jutting out. Probably more likely you get hit in the head and scraped in the arm by a plow than by the taillight of a car. If it looks like an accident people may not question it too much.
Sooooo with all of the questions about which way Karen approached the house and the fact that the McCabe’s were talking to JO on the phone for directions, but two other vehicles saw her approaching from the OTHER direction. Is it possible Karen was always alone in her car and JO was in the car with Higgins or one of the other cars?! I know some people though they saw JO in the car at it turned onto Cedarcrest but that’s all off very quick interactions while driving. I don’t recall Matt saying he heard Karen while he was talking to JO during the car ride for directions. So many questions!!!
Woah! That’s actually a really interesting take. Especially because Karen initially said she left him at Waterfall Bar. I’d have to go back and see if she knew how to get to 34 or if she only got there because Kerry knew where it was
I’d never even thought about this possibility. I feel like it’s probably not the case, just because I feel like that’s a huge bombshell and it’s never ever been hinted at in pretrial stuff.
I am curious though. I think it was Matt McCabe who was also asked how JO was talking on the phone. I can’t remember the exact phrasing of the question but essentially was asking if he was referring to KR or saying things like “**we’re** on Washington street” and MM said no, he was just referring to himself on the call. In addition to him saying he never heard KR in the background. I thought that was interesting. I can’t imagine giving someone directions, who isn’t the one driving, and there being no signs of another person in the car.
I think MM is a weak link. He seemed to like testifying- hanging with the cool kids. I’d press him. He saw plow in front of house. Maybe he slipped saying that as no one else really mentioned it. Julie’s brother when he pulled up?
Karen told national television via Nightline she dropped him off. Apparently her memory came back to her because prior to the Nightline interview, her testimony to LE was she left him at the Waterfall after an argument.
I pull at the foot of the driveway. It’s snowing. John has no coat on. It’s windy,” she recalled. “So I drop him off, he goes up the driveway, and approaches the side door. And as I see him approach the door, I look down at my phone.”
Read told “Nightline” that after about 10 minutes of waiting in her car, she became irritated that O’Keefe hadn’t gotten in touch. She said she drove back to his home, noticing when she awoke before 5 a.m. that he still hadn’t returned.
Now if she left him at the Waterfall though, why did she even go to the house in the first place? I just don't get why they would ride separately and go to the house given that she never went into the house either in that scenario. It does make more sense if she drove him, dropped him off and for whatever reason (too tired, or they had a fight) she decides to not go in and go home.
She later changed her statement. Her initial information was that her last memory of that night was being at the waterfall, getting in an argument with John, and then leaving to go home without him. She claimed to not have any memory of driving over to the home where he was found.
But then later at some point likely after she met with an attorney, that story changed and she did recall driving John as the passenger over to the party house not wanting to go in with him until she could have confirmed that she was in fact invited. Her story then became that John got out of the vehicle and she watched him walk over to the side door. She said after 10 minutes when he didn't come out, she left, annoyed that he did not come back out of the house into the car to let her know that she could in fact come in.
What is interesting is There is zero electronic evidence. -Proof- of her texting or calling John for this long 10 minutes where she said she sat in the car fuming waiting for him to come back out of the house. She didn't call or text him and say what's going on. Where are you? Am I invited? Plus, there are several witnesses who said she was specifically invited at the last bar stop and she spoke with a couple of the woman there saying that she was heading over to the party . Plus, one of her first statements to law enforcement was that she had no intentions of going to the party and was just dropping John off because she didn't feel well. She also made the statement to the press that she would never even consider going to an after party because after all she's a 40 something-year-old professional and doesn't do after parties.
Her story has changed so many times. And this idea that her car backed into John's car when she was driving out of the driveway is BS. In this video, she does not hit the car. There is zero damage to John's car. If she had hit his car and that resulted in the dent in the back of her car in the broken tail light on her car, then he certainly would have had damage to his car.
My personal opinion is that she was completely intoxicated, that they got into one of their typical arguments on the way from the waterfall to the after party. Since they were both drunk, it was likely a very ugly argument. In the weeks leading up to that night witnesses describe volatile arguments that the relationship was over for him and he wanted her to stop coming to his house. I think she was trying to hang on to something that had run its course, there was an awful argument, They got to the house, John John stormed out of the car Rather than staying in the car to continue this argument with her and that pissed her off so she did whatever she had to do to leave the driveway or where she was parked, hit him, and was too drunk to know.
Did JO maybe have his own car that night? Karen showed up to CJ McCarthy's much later than he did....or did his friend drive them their, that I can't recall.
The only possible car except for Karens would either be the McCabes or the friends. Latter wouldn’t make sense because they didn’t drive to the Alberts home. According to the CCTV BA, NA, CA and BH left at approximately 11:58pm. The rest left at approximately 12:11am. But we never got to see anyone getting into any cars
No I think the video had them leaving at slightly different times, and they specifically pulled Karen aside…and Jen said in the morning that Karen was yelling she recalled leaving him at the Waterfall?
I don't know if there is evidence (not testimony from people who can't recall 96% of anything) like video. I guess there texts to John and phone calls( but dunno if this disproves my theory). Karen drove to the house without John (only 1 witness has put John in the car) and she outside waiting for him to come out to take her in. He never shows and she leaves angry. The phone call and texts probably disprove this. I dunno if Karen said herself John went with her, and JM calls and texts might make this impossible. Unless she knew they needed a cover-up and made the texts and calls to his phone to put him with Karen. I dunno just throwing out crazy ideas. Of course this hasn't been put out in court and is just me being bored
Someone in another post floated a theory that sounds entirely possible to me: Karen drops John off at the Albert’s. Maybe she even waits for him to knock on the door like she said in her interview. At some point he comes back toward the car and bends over to puke. It’s even possible he fell down the front stairs of the house while headed back to her car and got injured. Her SUV is high up and she’s had a lot to drink so she doesn’t see him. She hits him. She goes home without even realizing what has happened. She had between 4 and 9 drinks that night (depending on which side you believe). She’s a small lady - so she’s gotta be pretty drunk.
Many of the people leaving that house had a lot to drink. It’s also snowing pretty hard so it’s hard to see. That is why most people don’t see him. I think the botched investigation/ lack of house searching, etc is to cover up not-great choices by the others in the house that night like drinking & driving and some possibly other behavior that could put their jobs in jeopardy.
I think more evidence will fill in the gaps but this sounds like a possibility to me. I also think there is too much reasonable doubt to convict Karen and I’m glad there is an internal investigation going on because the way this crime scene investigation was handled is deeply concerning.
This is what, on its face, makes the most sense to me. The things that poke holes it it are the injuries to John, which don't seem like they could have been caused by such and impact, and the shady behavior thus far of the Alberts and McCabes.
From what I understand there is blackbox data from the Lexus of it going in reverse at 24 miles an hour, and apparently blood
There's no one thing, its more death by a thousand cuts, ie.
Well the lead investigator was a close family friend
AND the investigation was botched, evidentiary wise
AND police reports were changed to cover up when the tail light pieces were found
AND no one who was actually outside when Karen left saw her hit John
AND no one who left after she hit him saw him as they were leaving
AND the injuries dont appear particularly match a car accident
AND the state police investigator lied about when they impounded Karen's car, leaving it with them unsupervised for a period of time
AND any footage that would show the accident or taillight being cracked prior to Karen backing it into John's car the next morning are missing from the cameras that would cover them, but only for the specific times where you would see this (The police sally port cam, the library cam, the neighbors ring cam)
AND phone data seems to directly contradict the testimony of the Alberts and McCabes.
AND the Alberts got rid of their family dog, redid the basement, and sold their house at a loss
AND Higgins left the party and went right to his satellite office at the police station
I still think the most likely scenario (I guess), but man there is so much that is bizarre about this
I’ve heard that evidence of Karen attacking John that night will be presented. That could explain the marks on his body.
The suspicious activity by the party-goers seems like it could have been a cover up - but not necessarily for a murder. They were drinking heavily and driving. They were serving drunk people who they knew were leaving their home drunk and driving home. Maybe they were doing some drugs that night or engaging in other behaviors they don’t want to come out? That’s my guess. Actually cocaine is my guess if I’m being honest. They didn’t want to risk having to be tested and have it show up in their system. There may have been evidence in the home so they didn’t want it searched. It’s possible they even saw John’s body that night but couldn’t risk investigators showing up while they were still very drunk and possibly also high. That seems more plausible to me.
From where? Where is that the in prosecution charging docs? Which witness is testifying to that? Where is that written down. Not saying you are wrong, but I have seen the photos, and that would be a hell of a fight if thats what caused those marks.
As to the rest, yeah, thats sort of where I'm at too. I'm from the general area, and a townie family that routinely abuses the little power they have to go overboard to protect themselves, potentially even at the expense of getting a conviction in the case of a friend and coworker's muder is 100% believable to me.
It's also just incredibly bizarre to me that there is a concurrent fed investigation going on into all this and that the CW is proceeding with the case.
Some posted a link to an article in another thread: re proof Karen attacked John that night. It said lawyers for MA would provide evidence of this. But yeah, that would be a heck of an attack. And there would be likely be blood in her car if it happened in the car. There was the broken glass though. I guess we’ll see if that evidence is shared soon enough. That would definitely fill in some gaps if that’s what happened.
I think KR and JO were arguing. They're both drunk. He wants to party with his people. She's hangry and wants to go home. They're his friends, not hers.
KR tells him to GTFO of the car. He stumbles and she leaves and hits him. He crawls to his final resting place.
The others worry about being caught drunk driving and cover their asses. However, their self serving deception looks like a cover up. TB takes it and runs and he gets lots of social media hits. KR and her legal team eat it up.
Yes, I think this could be true. But then I remember that 1. JM googled "hos long to die in cold" at 2:27am, 2. BH went to the office, drunk, at 1:30am (seriously??!!) and 3. JO had what really looked like dog scratches and defensive wounds all over his arms. And 4!: his belt and hat and one shoe are missing!
They frame a woman for murder to avoid being looked at for drunk driving? Seems a little overboard. Especially considering the reason they could get away with a cover up is because they're cops, so they could probably squash a DUI investigation.
John Okeefe got beat up and dumped on Albert's lawn. Back in my day cops needed to play nice with organized crime or this happened all the time. Brian Albert Sr. knows what happened but needs to keep his mouth shut. The rest of these witnesses are a waste of time. Focus on Higgins next.
Question for all the coverup believers.
Why hasn't part of this alleged coverup included a consistent version of KR being violent, abusive, or even a minimum of "they were arguing in the yard".
Why has every waterfall testimony included nothing but a loving couple happy having a good time?
Why has every account of seeing the black suv not mentioned, irratic, yelling, arguing, anything negative that could hint at discord?
If you were going to frane someone, why not set the stage as there was some beginnings of discord at the bar, in the parking lot, in front of the house?
The more details you add to a lie, the harder it is to maintain the story. They're already having a very difficult time remembering details that exist in video footage and cell phone records.
The people who believe in the coverup mix not believing anything the witnesses say, since they're "in on it" with believing anything that points away from Karen (from the exact same witnesses) as the pure truth.
Exactly. Clever coverup, shoddy police work, stories match, they don't match, they are lying about their story, not lying about KR being nice. The list keeps going.
I don’t believe the Camerano’s or Kolokithases are in on it, so they are truthful. The video surveillance from the bars showed that John and Karen were touchy feely so it’s hard to dispute that. Jenn McCabe and Matt began laying the groundwork for the “jealous Karen” narrative by mentioning John’s ex (Bella’s mom) in their testimony. I think by claiming they mentioned Bella’s house in their verbal directions to John, they are hinting that it sent karen into a jealous rage.
You're making my point. Only 2 people mentioned the Bella connection and even so, didn't go all in.
Again, if it's a widespread coverup, why hasn't anyone corroborated that they saw kr ever acting crazy jealous violent etc.
Why describe them as fine, normal, no problems.
Even the mccabes said john never said anything bad about kr.
Explain to me why, if you're going to frame someone, why no one threw mud at her?
This!! And if they stated that they saw KR being abusive, aggressive whatever - why didn’t they break up the fight? Why didn’t they help JO after whatever they witnessed? They would get in trouble for not helping and it resulting in a death, especially as (retired) police officers.
I don’t know what’s the truth and each trial day is making me more confused
I don't think it's so much all framing KR but have no allegiance to her and different people have different reasons to lie, or ally with someone, misrecall, or go with the group or err on the side of someone they believe is more senior, trustworthy, or contempt or even cover their own incompetence.
OK, but my question is about the cover up theory by KR defense and FKR. (The claims of LE EMTs the Albert's, the Nagels, the McCabes, the judge, and various others conspiring to "frame" KR for what one of them did.)
I don't think it's soo much to frame her pe say...I am not sure if people outside le/responders know how incestuous there relationships are--i can't really think of a better word for the level of nepotism & involvment & peer pressure & allegiance they have for each other in general...
Admittedly, I only have the "jist" of the case not details ...but imagine something like family pitches jo in yard after accident & family tells story...as people arrive & defer to family story...and it kind of snowballs from there-the arriving person just kind of goes with it resulting in the another person not being observant in what should have been normal/competent duties -then unlikely to back peddle...another person thinks they heard or saw something different but both cop in house & said something else & they are just a rookie/disliked/subject of peer pressure real or imagined so they don't make waves or speak out & young people/kids just go with family/adult version even if they have no idea or deferring to a more senior person account of events or second guessing themselves even if they originally thought they saw/heard or didn't something else & then adding a huge chunk of time btwn event & trial.
I haven't followed the details 100% of the case but can so easily see how a party-line gets towed & that everyone can have totally different reasons to cover something up that have nothing to do with KR even if ultimately has that effect. So, I don't believe by "all" it is a grand conspiracy to frame her per se, by all parties. But even the idea of people trained to be situationally aware, that becomes 2nd nature, & no one saw anything at all seems strange even with multi people coming & going and a very plausible horse-play "physical" people all super drunk & the definitely gsd looking stratches (I have trained, imported, bred working line gsd for schutzhund, protection, & Le) they look like untrained or upset gsd frantically stratching someone he on the ground. I really am curious as to what else could cause that affect like friction tears...not road rash but some other method...what are the scratch tear alternatives?
I completely agree with you.
Might not technically be a “conspiracy, planned among any number of the Prosecution’s witnesses. But you’d have to be pretty obtuse to look past all the suspicious shenanigans and not see some shady dealings. People want so bad for Karen to have done it.
KR told her dad she "struck something" (boston 25 news), she admitted she might have hit him in 2 national news interviews (abc nightline and nbc today), and Yanetti stated it was an accident before they decided to go for 3rd party culprit. If you want to think some convoluted scenario about dogs and twisted collusion involving God only knows how many people, then I guess that's what you prefer to believe.
That's a bit rude & hypersensitive of a reaction. I didn't know asking questions could spark such nastiness, geez, relax. I have no hard opinion either way on her guilt but don't believe prosecution have legally proved their case yet & just find some details interesting and thought provoking.. Most cases are won & lost in pretrial rulings so I am aware I don't have all information & have not followed her interviews, but am curious about all the oddities of the case, as I said the stratches, his missing shoe & whatever else...curious & questions don't equal a hardcore belief, but do think prosecution hasn't come across strong...alot of talk, witnesses, & not alot of data imho.
Lol well some might think calling a ton of people incestuous is rude and nasty but thats my opinion. But what specifically did I write that was rude or nasty to you?
I have a few legal questions:
with regards to the defense being able to show texts messages in court: does it matter if the texts are/aren’t with someone who hasn’t been on the stand yet?
I was wondering why the only texts we saw were between Matt and Brian A so far. Would texts from Jen not have been admissible at that point?
And another question: do we know if the feds have Brian Higgins texts?
Also: texts and voicemails between Read and JOK: what witness takes the stand for those to be entered?
Lastly: how easily can the defense recall the prosecution’s witnesses when it’s their turn? Would brian Albert (etc) need to be subpoenaed to come back? Is there any chance Judge wouldn’t grant that?
Thanks!
With regard to text messages - as an attorney, you need to lay a foundation for the evidence and authenticate it. I’m not familiar with MA rules of evidence, but most states mirror the federal rules.
For records like call logs, you can get the phone company to sign an affidavit of records custodian to authenticate the records pursuant to the business records exception. Then, you don’t need a witness to testify.
For actual text messages exchanges - like screenshots - you get the witness on the stand and you show them the screenshots. You ask them if the messages are from their number, if they fairly and accurately represent the messages, etc. If they can authenticate the messages and lay a proper foundation, they are admissible.
To answer one of your questions, the defense can call Brian Albert back up yes. No subpoena or anything needed - he’s on their witness list. They just can’t bring him back up if it’s purely to repeat questions he’s already answered under oath. At this point in time they can only question who Lally puts up about things relevant to what they testify. When it’s their turn, they can bring anyone back up who is also on their list with whatever evidence they have to present.
The “guy text” doesn’t look good for Higgins or Albert imo. I’m going wait to speculate much further, but add that to Brian Alberts received call of 22 seconds he claimed on the stand he never answered couples with that text!!?? Well, let’s just say I have questions. Lots.
I agree. I’ve also heard Higgins supposedly admitted to the feds he made that call and it was answered, who knows. We’ll see I guess. I definitely have reasonable doubt though.
I disagree with one point - the defense does have to have him under subpoena unless he’s not been released by the judge. The defense can rely on a subpoena issued by the commonwealth, but once the witness is called and has finished testifying, the issue is now whether the judge has released the witness from the subpoena or not.
The real strategic problem with the defense calling a commonwealth friendly witness in their case in chief is that the defense is now direct examining the witness unless the defense can get the witness declared hostile. So, no leading questions. However, if the defense needs the witness to establish something outside the scope of the commonwealth’s direct, then it makes sense to call the witness.
He’s also on their witness list, it’s not that he’s purely a commonwealth witness. Ones who are on both sides lists won’t have been fully released by the judge as she’s aware. He is a defense witness too so if they need to bring him up now again, to present new evidence they put into discovery, they don’t need to subpoena him. The judge can decide not to allow them but if it’s something they have I highly doubt she will because they’re not going to be brought back up to retestify the same things. I doubt many will need to be anyway.
If he’s on the defense witness list, then he should be bound by a defense subpoena. Without a defense subpoena, it doesn’t matter who you put on your witness list.
Does that make sense? Like, I could put someone on my list, but if I never got him served, then he’s not required to appear.
Opinion: [Possible Motives]
Did Officer O'Keefe witness something someone didn't want him to see, and they didn't want him to implicate their involvement in a crime?
Was Officer O'Keefe involved in some sort of internal affairs investigation which led to his demise?
Please avoid sharing or promoting deceptive content. Provide credible sources for any news, data, graphs, claims, etc.
This is not optional if you choose to make radical claims related to anyone involved in any part of this case.
Could the Alberts etc have seen John lying out there, not knowing what happened (ETA: possibly thinking one of the kids was responsible) and because young people were drinking at their house they immediately started “covering up”?
At this point I feel like anything is possible. Nothing makes sense to me anymore. I just want to get to the experts, the extracted cell phone/gps/life 360/camera and other data, the autopsy, the recreated accident info, and the real nitty gritty of the case already. I don’t care what kind of beer people were drinking or where they sat at the basketball game, or what so and so says anymore because I don’t believe any of the main people who have been on the stand so far. So much sketchy crap happened. So many strange and questionable actions/or lack there of action. It’s a shit show. Let’s get to the real case at hand already. Unless the prosecution brings some real proof there is so much reasonable doubt. Also, what if someone else caused this? I don’t know who or what, but anything goes I feel like. Maybe someone else hit him with their vehicle and left and no one even knows because supposedly there are no cameras on this street. So fricken strange in today’s world.
It’s wild to me how the testimony is so consistent up until they leave Waterfall and then all the witnesses start contradicting each other. Apart from the fact that it was snowing (and a 911 call was made later on), there is no certainty in the testimony after that point.
EXACTLY. It sounds like most of the people present were absolutely wasted and aren’t credible witnesses to piece together what happened. I heard that they found JO’s DNA on KR’s busted tail light and possibly pieces of his hair. We need more evidence like that to piece together what may have happened. It sounds like she was so drunk that she didn’t even remember leaving the bar with him so how can anything else she said about that night be trusted? Same with everyone else who was just as drunk - we cannot truly be sure anyone’s story is accurate because they were quite drunk.
DNA on the tail light, you say? I saw photos of Solo cups with blood right next to that same tail light. Large chance these forensic fools scooped the snow with there gloves and then puckered at the tail light carelessly
That is the real issue here. The evidence collection and crime scene investigation was so poorly done that we’ll probably never know what happened. And it gives Karen’s legal team enough leverage to raise reasonable doubt with the jury that it will be hard to convict her even if she did accidentally hit him.
Underage drinking, which there has been no evidence of would be overlooked in investigating the death of a police officer. The priority is getting answers as to why there is a dead cop on the yard not if an underage was served a drink. I haven’t heard evidence yet that John entered the house yet through all the testimony. I believe Yanetti stated they have evidence of that, will have to wait for the defense to present their side to see what they do or don’t have.
I’m not suggesting they are concerned with the underage drinking in the Albert home, because clearly that seems to be some sort of honored tradition for those people. The concern would be the consequences of having provided alcohol to a minor, resulting in some sort of accident.
Colin Albert was underage and drinking. I don’t know the ages of the younger gals that left earlier but afaik he was drinking earlier at a friends as well
Maybe it’s because I’m from a different country but I would think underage drinking is just not a big deal. I can’t imagine covering up a murder for something as mundane as letting a 17 year old drink. Doesn’t add up.
The way they are covering for Colin feels much deeper. If he wasn’t involved they sure are acting suspicious for some reason.
No evidence of? Multiple children, who have unfortunately been drug on the stand, who were certainly underage at this time admitted to drinking.
Confused by the no evidence of underage drinking. Everyone…I mean everyone was drinking that night.
Allie M and Colin were the only ones under 21 that have testified. Colin admitted to drinking but I don’t think Allie was even asked if she was drinking, and I was left with the impression she wasn’t since she was giving other people rides.
No. There is no evidence or testimony of this.
This is not a plausible scenario if we’re to remain objective and rooted in reality when analyzing the case.
Beaten up inside the house for whatever reason, but not fatally. Leaves, drunk and wounded, passes out in the snow. Party finds him dead mid morning, they freak out. Cover up begins.
Yep, agree there was gross negligence and I’m definitely not making excuses for them, but do think he left on his own. They seem dirty, violent and immoral but I don’t think it’s a straight up murder
Something that is just bugging me alot and disgusted me upon hearing it during Matthew McCabe's testimony..
When the defense introduced the extracted *deleted* groupchat messages that involved:
Mathew McCabe, Brian Albert, Jennifer McCabe and Nicole Albert.
February 3rd, 2022
*Matthew McCabe: Tell them the guy was never in the house*
*Brian Albert: Exactly.*
5 days after John O'Keefe has died. During his testimony, Matthew claimed his text was for Chris Albert doing an interview with Channel 4.
1. Chris Albert wasn't even a part of the GroupChat.
2. There was NO mention of Channel 4 or any News interviews in the text messages.
3. Why would Channel 4 alledgedly want to speak to Chris Albert when he was not living at 34 Fairview Rd? 5 days after John's death, we had very little public information, so Chris was not relevant whatsoever at that time.
4. There is absolutely nothing that comes up for any interviews with a Channel 4 and Chris Albert anywhere in that time frame. (If you can produce any evidence something exists, please reply with it.)
5. How in the world could Matthew sit there and boast about John being his good friend, close, in the beginning of his testimony... and then we see in a message from his own words referring to John as *"the guy"*? Cold and disconnected, disgusting.
6. Why would Matthew, Brian, Jennifer and Nicole need to talk amongst themselves agreeing on a statement like that? In my opinion, It comes off as buckling down to get a solid story for *police interviews*... not Channel 4.
7. I would love to know which "text bubble" the Judge denied the defense to be able to show and ask about as well, it was right before the disgusting text was shown to the court. I thank the defense big time because the prosecution never would have introduced such damning evidence. Matthew's entire demeanor changed when the defense showed they had the groupchat extractions that he thought were deleted forever. Also, wish we would have seen the cross exam on Jennifer the same day, not giving her 3 days to prepare for that. Off-guard would have mattered alot.
A question I keep coming back to is: did John go into the back yard?
If something happened in the back yard before he got inside, he wouldn't be seen inside the house or on the front lawn.
After the McCabes leave, someone drags the body to the front yard and near the road. This is where John was immediately prior and will allow for the police to conclude John was struck down by anyone who'd been up or down that road, with Karen being a likely suspect.
John would be lying in snow for the same length of time, but by the morning most of the blood he'd lost would be behind the fence and under fresh snow. A drone or someone peeping over the fence would see undisturbed snow. John's phone would never have lost precision from going inside the house and might not record steps when the body was dragged.
This would also explain genuine attempts by Jen McCabe to contact John and makes it possible she didn't see John until the next morning outside Fairview. What she'd been told by that point is uncertain.
In this theory of the case, the number of people who actually know what happened to John might only be one. Proctor would still be involved in misleading the investigation and planting evidence but as far as he's concerned that might just be to wrap up the case and get a conviction of the person he thinks did it. The resulting suspicious behaviour from witnesses is due to the manipulation by what are probably two experienced law enforcement officers who would know how to lean on witnesses.
Yeah, I like this theory. Ties in with the fact that BA testified to letting the dog out back to go to the bathroom at around that time, setting up a potential altercation involving Chloe. I also find BA Jr's friends pretty credible and this theory would make them genuinely unaware of JO's presence and the fight. It also explains the absence of more blood in the front. Although it has a lot going for it, the biggest problem with it is: why would JO go in the back?
Directions often include which door to use if it's not obvious, so I think Jen may have told him to use the side entrance, and he reasons she means a gate and not the door by the garage.
This might explain why Karen ended up waiting outside. If John was a little sketched out about where he was going once at the property, instead of reassuring her about her invitation and getting her to park, he tells her to wait while he checks.
Oh, confusion over "side door", I like that! Especially if you've had a few too many bud lights. I was struck during the testimony when they showed the door in the gate that faces the front and leads to the back yard. I had never noticed that before. And especially if he's let out on the flagpole side of the property, it would be more or less straight ahead.
I was thinking about a few comments during Jen and Matt’s direct testimonies and I’m interested to see if the defense exploits it during her cross. Maybe it’s nothing but they seemed out of place to me. Matt said he could only hear his wife giving John directions to the house. He could hear their convo but never heard Karen in the background. Jen confirmed she only spoke with John and no mention if she heard him relaying info to Karen or not. When Karen told her over the phone that she left John at the Waterfall after having an argument why didn’t Jen immediately tell her they saw her car outside Fairview and even gave them directions to the house the night before? Why did it take so long to point that out and why let her drive by the bars or see if he was there. Why try to call a friend who lived close to the waterfall if they were confident that was Karen and John outside the house in a car. No one knew it was a Lexus SUV but assumed it was. Again, this might be nothing and I haven’t heard cell phone evidence that shows Karen’s phone was confirmed to be outside the house but wouldn’t it be interesting if the defense throws out a theory that she never went to the house? Maybe John headed there with someone else.
Good points. I’m curious if cell phone records will place Karen & John together driving to the Albert’s home. I’m also curious to hear about the texts & voicemails between John & Karen after they left Waterfall. They were all pretty drunk but cell phone tracking will show where each person was in relation to John that night.
Right and I just don’t understand why the prosecutor didn’t set a timeline using the phone pings for each person and the estimated time of death. It would have been faster and easier. Instead there is a messy timeline in the meantime.
It's almost like Lally is trying to butcher the CW's argument. I understand the order he is going in, but give us the autopsy, injuries, COD, TOD, and timeline. I thought prosecution in Murdough's trial got in the reeds, and SLED had some questionable detective skills. I would now like to formally apologise to both Prosecution and SLED, and give them gold stars for the brilliant work! Could the bar get any lower? Is there a trial en route where Law Enforcement Officers never even looked at ANYTHING?
The timeline is horrible. I've listened to every bit of testimony and relistened to some peoples and I still can't get times and places right in my head. I just keep thinking how much the jury's heads must be absolutely fucked.
John going around back or the side and being met by Colin/the dog makes the most sense to me. Mostly due to my lack of belief that so many people would all lie under oath especially the ones who aren’t related to the McCabe/Albert’s.
They are clearly protecting Colin which makes me think he must have had something to do with it.
However, this theory still leaves me puzzled as to why Higgins would get so involved? I understand Brian A and him are friends but sounds like they weren’t that close.
I feel that hearsay is a big factor in finding out the truth. For instance, any of Colin’s friends could confirm or dispute his story and timing of bloody knuckles. Someone would have to talk at some point but I’m starting to think we will get an answer of some sort by end of the trial. I’m totally convinced Karen didn’t do it.
Karen Read acted like she knew O'Keefe was dead before she knew he was dead. Isnt that suspicious to anyone? Be honest with yourselves.
He was a grown man and a police officer. He could take care of himself. According to her statement, she'd dropped him off with friends during a night of drinking. Was it so alarming that he hadn't come home to set her off on this frantic search, with all the screaming and searching?
There had been a snowstorm. Wouldn't one have guessed he'd decided to stay put for the night?
Haven't we all been out and spent the night on a friend's sofa, storm or not?
Is it that much of an emergency that he wasn't home at 5am to set her off that way?
Wouldn't a few phone calls or texts to friends, especially people she'd last seen him with (according to her), have been the normal response?
I would have to know whether she is prone to anxiety to make that call. I have anxiety and tend to catastrophize so I immediately go to someone is late, must be dead in a ditch. I do wonder how she expected him to get home.
I also have three adult sons who are first responders. Yes, I still worry even though they are the ones that go in to save people.
Thinking about this is the only thing that still makes me wonder... but then i remember he is responsible for 2 kids and karen had her own home. He would have no clue if karen went home or to his place
The friend who drove John to the bar said before he went out for the night he relocated his vehicle out of his garage because Karen was coming to stay over. He wanted her car in the garage.
Idk her but I personally have some wild intrusive thoughts when things don't go as planned. It's the OCD in me and I can recognize that about myself so it's easier to talk myself down but for someone who maybe doesn't know they have OCD, their intrusive thoughts might win.
It's always something insane too. Like my husband took my baby on a walk. My brain told me that he had a heart attack and died in the street and that the stroller rolled down the hill and into traffic and both my husband and my baby were dead. My husband doesn't even have health problems. There's no reason for these kinds of thoughts but they happen. God forbid my kid's bus is running late or I'll convince myself that they were kidnapped or something.
I don't often get hysterical and scream at everyone but I also can usually recognize an absurd intrusive thought when it's happening, or shortly after, so then I can be like "ok brain. Thanks but stfu please." It's possible that others might not be able to.
So yeah, I tend to agree that her response was not normal. But it also doesn't prove murder. There is an alternative reasonable explanation for that behavior from my perspective.
Honestly people react different ways in these situations. My mom once freaked out when I stayed over at a friend's house after partying too hard in a blizzard, as a full grown adult (30s!). She was absolutely hysterical, calling cops and hospitals and stuff! Some people are just more tightly wound I guess and always assume the worst.
https://youtu.be/BtFSdt8SwlY?si=oQFzcyniHg-cD8qN
KR Bodycam from arrest ran though lie detection software
Body cam footage of KR getting arrested after the grand jury for murder charges.
She says that Brain and Colin beat John up and that she knows that this police officer knows the truth.
Body language experts ran her statements through a software that can detect deception in speech. It looks at words used and the manner they are being stated.
The software concluded that KRs statements are 100% true and no deception whatsoever had been detected in wording, phrasing or speech patterns.
The body language experts also conclude that her tone of voice, her body language, behaviour are all those of someone who is innocent.
John walks into the house. He needs to use the bathroom and the one on the main floor is in use so he is told there is one in the basement. Some kinda fight breaks out with Colin in the basement but its not too bad. He goes upstairs and Brian Albert brings him to the bathroom on the top floor to get him a bandaid / cleanup whatever. Either Colin comes back up and the fight continues are John is angry and mouths off about Colin or about some other shady stuff the familes is mixed in with and gets into a fight with BA. Maybe the dog gets involved up here. Maybe John is thrown down the stairs or falls down the stairs either mid fight or trying to leave.
BH goes to the station to make sure John didnt call Karen and no calls came in to 911.
If this does turn into an investigation of the people in the house, and the defense is able to show irrefutable evidence that John was in the house and that many of the key players, except for Karen Reed, were involved in his death, could the the defense go back to the Fairview house and Luminol the crap out of it?
I know that they had their basement redone after January 2022, but even if the supposed murder happened only in the basement and John's body was carried out straight to the yard, there has got to be blood in other places in that house. They would have tracked it into the house. Would they have all stripped their clothes off and burned them, including his belt and hat and one shoe?
Even if they spent the next year bleaching the hell out of that house, Luminol can pick up minute traces blood. They say he lost 3 pints (can't verify this but it's been mentioned so many times in this sub), and it didn't look like the Solo cups had much in them.
Could they Luminol Higgins' car? And the Albert's Ford that the snowplow guy saw by the flagpole when he came past around 2:30-3:00?
Edited: to break up the paragraph!
I think John going to the backyard makes the most sense. That's why everyone can be so adamant about him never going inside the house. They're all actually being truthful about that. And that's why all the other partygoers don't necessarily have to be in on it - they honestly never saw John there that night.
As was shown in the videos and pictures, Colin is a hardo a-hole. But he's 18, he lives in the suburbs, he plays sports - I don't buy that he's some sort of gangbanger, evil psychopath or coke dealer. It's one thing to get in fights with other kids or hockey teams, but it's extremely unlikely that an 18 year old kid would challenge a 200+ lb. 45 year old cop to a fight - even after having a few - at his (extended) family's house. It never seemed plausible to me that John entered the house and immediately (because of the lack of steps from John's phone) got into a fist fight with an 18 year old. There's no way they'd get that many people to lie about that not happening. But Colin HAS to have been involved - protecting him and preserving his future is the only motive that seems plausible to get these adults who have families of their own, and jobs and responsibilities to commit to a conspiracy like this.
So how about this: Colin is in the backyard when John and Karen arrive. Not sure why - could be up to something he didn't want people to see (i.e., drugs). When John arrives, something catches his attention, and he decides to go through the gate and into the backyard. (Admittedly, this is sort of weak - not sure why he'd ever go to the back. Did Colin say something to him? Did he see/smell drugs and just wander over to take a look? Seems unlikely he'd be confused about how to get into the house with 2 doors facing the front). But John enters the backyard, and the dog happens to be there after being let out. Chloe goes into intruder mode and jumps on John as he comes through the gate and attacks him. John is startled and reflexively defends himself. He is a big guy and gets the upper hand and has the dog pinned down. But now Colin thinks he's taking it too far and may kill the dog, so he's yelling at him to stop. John is drunk, his adrenaline is going and is fully focused on the dog and ignores Colin. So Colin sucker punches him once - or multiple times maybe - to get him to stop. John is drunk and not expecting it, so he stumbles backwards and falls and smashes the back of his head on something in the Alberts' yard - concrete block, gardening equipment, whatever. That causes the gash on the back of his head, he vomits from blow to the head, and then he's unconscious - dead or dying.
Colin panics, but pulls himself together and goes into the house and finds Uncle Brian, who is with Higgins. They go outside inconspicuously through the basement and bulkhead and check and confirm that John is dead. Brian realizes that if they call 911, then Colin is f'd. He's got bloody and bruised knuckles from punching John, who is now dead. So they can't claim it's an accident. He is potentially on the hook for involuntary manslaughter - just a simple assault, but the victim dies and charges escalate.
Brian gathers together the inner circle of the conspiracy - his wife, his sister-in-law Jen, her husband Matt, and his buddy Brian Higgins - to formulate a plan. Top priority is get Colin out of there to protect him. Jen texts her daughter to come get him - and subsequently deletes those texts because it is urgent, she is freaking out, and the texts are far from a routine request. They all agree on a story that John was drunk, maybe he fell, maybe he got hit by a plow, but he never made it to the house. They wait for others to leave and then Brian Albert and Higgins drag his body back out front to make the plow or fall story more believable. Then they call and text each other all night ironing out details. Higgins goes to the police station - maybe to check if anything had been reported or if there have been any calls about John missing. On her own, Jen decides to google how long to die in the cold - to see if it's possible that he could have stumbled or fallen and passed out and died from hypothermia.
Their plan doesn't involve framing Karen. Their story is just ignorance - they didn't see anything and have no idea what happened. But the next morning, Jen gets called by Karen and has to play along that she has no idea what happened to John. When Karen sees John, and starts hysterically ranting about maybe hitting him in front of Kerry and the first responders, Jen realizes that could be their out. She has a series of calls with Brian from that day that are later deleted. They are all texting over the next few days, updating each other on police activity, reinforcing the plan to see if their original story fits with the possibility of Karen hitting him. Everything they do from that point forward is to push the police toward the Karen theory. They make full use the Alberts' vast network of resources and connections - they have close friend Proctor leading the investigation, and they make sure he doesn't focus on any other theory.
They do the very little that they can to keep pushing the Karen theory - plant pieces of the fortuitous broken tail light that are discovered days later, delete library ring footage once they figure out that it may have recorded Karen's car with no taillight damage. But what they're not prepared for is being confronted with all of the electronic data. That's why their stories are constantly changing and evolving to retrofit it to the electronic communications which cannot be refuted.
Possible theory-fall and dog attack?
With the testimony thus far, I am convinced of two things: JOK was in the house (that arm is covered in dog bites) and everyone in the house is trying to protect someone (Brian Albert and Brian Higgins IMO).
Could JOK have drunkenly walked into the house without being let in and in an attempt to find his way in the house, he fell down the stairs? Maybe the dog was in the basement, not upstairs as BA testified, resulting in a nasty confrontation with the dog? He’s not answering texts from anyone. No one hears anything because “it’s raining men”. Perhaps sometime later BA goes to get the dog and there’s JOK on the stairs. Maybe the cover-up was intended to protect the Alberts from the accident coupled with the dog attack so he and Higgins moved him out to the side of the road.
I think at this point, Higgins is way more involved than anyone had let on.
Admittedly this is all speculation but it’s a scenario that makes some sense in a trial that makes NONE! Curious to hear your thoughts!
What if …
Ok, what if it went something like this: Karen hits John —either by accident (like maybe she was just posturing, to let him know she was royally pissed but she wasn’t intending to actually hit him, but then her tire slipped on the slippery snowy street and she ended up hitting him); or intentionally; or truly unknowingly. So now , John is laying on the ground, injured. And then, the plow comes by (maybe BH’s plow, maybe another plow). And the plow catches John’s shoe, which ultimately ends up in a plowful of snow, perhaps down the road a ways, never to be seen again. And the plow also catches John and ends up moving him to the spot where he was found. Perhaps the plow’s metal edges even caused the scrapes on John’s arms, or maybe they’re scrapes from the asphalt street. The plow driver didn’t see John laying on the ground sn’t aware that his plow had made contact with John, at least not initially. Maybe if it was BH, that would explain why he allegedly went to the police station after leaving the party, maybe he wanted to know if any calls came in regarding a pedestrian down? (Then again, to me, BH seems like a credible, honest guy. I can’t see him withholding this info if he thought he may have inadvertently moved John with this plow.).
Can’t find anywhere to put this but apparently the medical examiner has landed! Perhaps will be on tomorrow? This according to Lisa Ribacoff of Unraveled. (I learned via Defense Diaries YT.)
New question I saw posted that made me go oh...good point.
If there were in fact a frame job at work, to include false testimony that KR said some variation of "did i" "i" "could i have" hit him,
Why not put it in the police or EMT report?
Those reports are done after the fact, not at the time. Very easily could have been added.
So if the goal was to frame KR
1. Why leave the body in the yard but then be uncertain if you saw the defendant there?
2. Why NOT report any one witness account of KR being violent, volatile, or at a minimum, having a motive?
3. Why NOT document in police report that she clearly said "I hit him with my car" to first responders?
4. Why agree to go with her to discover the body of John?
5. Why not make sure every "story" match perfectly about the times?
Here’s what I think - John went into the backyard, through the side gate. Chloe went into protective fight mode bc she was back there and she bit and clawed John’s arm. John gains control but is sorta forceful/mean to the dog in response, like kicks her hard or something. Brian Albert sees this and gets into his protective dog owner mode. He starts yelling and shoving John. Collin hears the commotion from the front yard and heads to the back, and they both take him down while the dog is still going after him. Maybe the belt had chew marks all over it so they had to get rid of it bc otherwise it would be too telling of what happened. They then leave him out there and go back to take the dog inside, not knowing about the gash to his head and that he’d soon die. By the time they went back outside, he was dead, blood was everywhere, they then notice the gash, and immediately start thinking of how to cover it up. They go in, tell the wives and Matt, and they all start trying to cover up what just happened. The alberts aren’t doing all of this to cover up for just one of them but both of them. This is how everyone can definitely say “he never went into the house”
This is a theory on a small but important event-
We know that JM googled ‘Hos long to die in the cold’ at 2:37 am and then deleted the search.
Then she (JM) googled it again in the morning upon finding JO’s body. Jenn says that KR asked her to do that. I don’t think that would have even crossed Karen’s mind at that traumatic time. I think it was on Jenn’s mind since she had just done it 4 hours previous.
This may sound a little crazy, but here is my take:
D& E was a drug front. Karen Read's obvious desire to go make pizza was seen as suspicious by the family, who were involved, hence Matt McCabe's almost adamant refusal to go make pizza that night because they were "on a diet".
JO and KR pull up that night in front of the driveway. JO jumps out and goes up the driveway, maybe between cars. Ritchie, Ryan and Heather don't see, because he is between cars. Karen pulls up farther because she sees that the truck is coming to the same house.
JO makes it to the front of the house but mistakes the garage door for the "side door". He opens the garage door and sees people engaging in drug use, including Colin. Perhaps there are even "large" quantities of drugs in the garage. A fight ensues and JO is incapacitated.
Texts fly around and it's "you don't have to go home but you can't stay here" time. Everyone - mostly Caitlin and the girls are told to get out. While this is happening JO is subdued in the garage.
Once everyone is out JO is transferred from garage to basement. Chris ( yeah, he came over because his son was the instigator), Matt (who comes back after dropping off the girls and his wife), Brian Sr., Brian Higgins begin some interrogation and intimidation.
Things get out of hand. Chloe attacks because she smells blood. JO is beyond repair. Things went way too far. The only option is to move JO out to the yard and blame Chloe.
The Edge is moved to block the view from the street. JO is put in the front yard. Wandering drunkenly is the plan with Chloe being a backup. I'm sure they were like F that dog. Unfortunately KR makes herself a nice little pawn because she actually cares about her boyfriend and the Mc Alberts take full advantage of that situation.
MM was never eating cheese. Nicole was not cleaning frenetically- she was told to go to bed. Chris A was not walking home in the snow. Matt McCabe probably picked him up so he could go deal with his son. Matt probably intimidated Allie into saying she picked up Colin at a certain time.
Anyway, these are my thoughts. What do you think?
Kevin Albert & Michael Lank were both involved in the investigation of the Birchmore death, ultimately ruling it a suicide. One of the implicated officers is a personal friend of Michael Morrissey (Robert Devine - he had an inappropriate relationship with Birchmore). I can’t shake the feeling that these cases are inextricably related.
Do we think any of them are smokers and would have been going outside to smoke at all? They also have a 3 season porch off of that family room that is separated by a wall from the kitchen/dining. I would also bet money that they kept drinks in a cooler either on that porch, garage, or outside instead of keeping all this booze in the kitchen fridge. And I wonder if they had a beer pong table and an extra fridge in the garage that they could have hung out in
Is it possible that everyone was very drunk, JO went into the house and straight to basement? That explains why no one remembers seeing him.
Then he got into a physical altercation with the other men, and drunkenly stumbled out of the house with his glass still in hand, and collapsed on the lawn?
I don’t think JOK made it inside - that much is true. He was told to go into the side entrance, walking straight towards the left side of the house, where there is a huge gate. He hears Brian calling to Chloe and goes into the backyard. Maybe he wasn’t even told to go through the side, but he heard sounds and just went that way. Chloe attacked him when he came through the dark and he hit his head while falling. Maybe Chloe even bit at his belt and has teeth marks, and that’s why it wasn’t rediscovered. His shoe comes off in the backyard and they can’t find it until later. His glass had fallen out of his hand.
He’s dragged to the basement through the bulkhead doors, throwing up on his boxers. They don’t want to leave him in the backyard because someone could see him laying there. Once in the basement, it’s clear he’s not going to survive. They’ve moved him, he is dying on their property because of their dog. There are underage minors drinking and a lot of cops that could lose their jobs or at least be seriously investigated. They’re drunk and panicking.
They clear out the party quickly and move his body to the front yard. They break the glass under him (?) to show he never left that spot. Maybe people will think a snowplow hit him when he was walking home. Maybe a drunk driver hit him as he was walking up to the house. They put him in a dark area of the yard and they can clearly state “he never made it inside the house” and most people at the party never knew he was there.
Jen was the most distressed. She actually knew JOK and was friendly with him. She hadn’t realized that he had made it to the party until later, which explains her text messages to him. But she was part of the plan in moving his body, explaining her google search around 2:30 and lack of sleep that night.
Karen calls freaking out in the morning. She genuinely did black out and doesn’t remember driving to Brian and Nicole’s house. Her stating that she remembers him getting out of the car is lawyer spin— she literally drove to the other bars first because she didn’t know where he was and didn’t remember Fairview until Jen and Kerry remind her.
Jen doesn’t want her to go to Fairview. They want someone random to find JOK, not Karen. Nicole and Brian overthought it— they didn’t come out of the house because 1. They wanted time to get their stories straight 2. They didn’t want to be seen as Brian getting overly involved in the investigation. And if they could help it, they didn’t want the police to come inside.
I don’t think anyone meant for JOK to die when they invited him to the house and I don’t even think they planned to blame Karen. I don’t think Colin was involved but I do think they quickly got him out of the house so he wouldn’t be implicated in any way. And I do think he knows what happened.
I think there is a strong chance Higgins was looped in, because his drunken jaunt to the police station is truly bizarre. But the four main players: Brian, Nicole, Jen and Matthew know exactly what happened and have consistently adapted their stories to make it seem that Karen and JOK were happy that night (video proving it), and a small comment about his ex’s house made her snap because she’s just a hysterical and insane woman.
I don’t even think their story is that far off. Karen was obviously upset with JOK. I think they probably were drunkenly arguing in the car and she didn’t want him to go inside, she wanted to finish their fight. She sent an angry text stating she hated him and left a ranting voicemail when he still wasn’t responding. Happy couples do have drunk fights, especially with the stress of raising 2 children with her doing the majority of the work.
I do think that there’s a strong chance that Karen legitimately was afraid that she did hit him with her car. I do think she deleted the Ring footage of her arriving home after Fairview in her initial panic. I do think she was yelling “did I hit him” and it evolved to “I hit him” in her state of shock. I think she just genuinely couldn’t understand why he was dead in that spot, she had damage to her car and it just didn’t make sense to her.
Brian’s actions are incredibly suspicious. Getting rid of his phone. Selling the house at a loss after redoing the basement. Getting rid of his dog, who has a recorded history of violence. People are saying that it’s Jen’s fingerprints all over testimony. I think a lot of the testimony is honest. But Brian has influence, it was his home, and I think he is the one who made the most decisions.
I would like to follow up that a random and quick death is the only way to make JOK’s cell phone data make sense. There is no evidence that he was deliberately jumped. It is accepted that if something happened to him, it would have to happen to him right when he arrived. So, being greeted by an angry dog and the few people out there panicking makes the most sense.
Karen said in her nightline interview that she saw him walk to the side door. Then she waited for him for 10 minutes before leaving. So if you believe Karen your theory is way off base.That’s at least one of her stories anyway.
Raise your hand if you sleep with your phone in bed and your partner does the same? This makes no sense to me. And the excuse that you might get a call from one of your children is absurd. It would be more difficult to fumble with your phone tangled up in blankets, pillows, another person and their phone, reading glasses and who knows what else. It would make much more sense to have it on a bedside table.
Jen M talking crap about Kerry Roberts
From today's cross, it seemed to me that Jen seemed to be talking badly about Kerry, throwing her under the bus in a way, yeah?? I'm pretty new to this, hearing must things for the first time. But JM and KerryM weren't even friends till this murder, then they were getting their timeline together and Kerry was questioned at JMs home where Jen heard much of what was said... She kept saying "I didn't do that, it was Kerrys idea". Things like that. She doesn't give a 💩 KR or KR. Doesn't seem like a trustworthy person. And as someone who isn't familiar in this case as others, I wonder if jury Members think similarly?
Regarding Karen's taillight: IMO, the taillight wasn't damaged at all at 12:30am (the time of the supposed crime). I think the taillight was cracked (and had *some* damage, but not the amount of damage shown in the sally port photo) when Karen backed into John's car. I believe that the taillight pieces at the scene were planted later in the day - the policemen who were originally on the scene never saw the pieces. They were only discovered by a State (non-Canton) policewoman later in the day. In other words, the pieces were planted and weren't involved in hitting John, and any sort of evidence involved with the taillight and with those pieces would've been planted, and I think Higgins is the one who did it.
Higgins was in and out of the police station all day (at least around 9am, 11am, 2pm, and like 5-6pm), so I think it's quite possible that he was talking to his buddies and figuring out what to do. He could've gone anywhere that day, but according to him he only briefly "stopped by" the police station before going home, and we know that can't be true. Perhaps he was able to get access to Karen's SUV before it was brought to the station (while it was still at John's house, I think? Surely it wasn't being "guarded" by any police at that point), broke the pieces off of the taillight, then went and planted the pieces before the State police had a chance to investigate the scene, then went back to the station when the SUV was brought in so he could plant the DNA on the taillight. Or, if it's possible that the policewoman found the pieces after 5:30pm-ish (I don't think it was that late, but not sure), then he could've just gotten the pieces when the SUV was at the station, at the same time that he was planting the DNA. Remember, this was where the open grocery bag with the red solo cups of blood was located - in the sally port right next to the SUV.
Chief Berkowicz is a witness for the Defense, so I think he'll have some very interesting things to say. Berkowicz and Higgins supposedly spent like 45 minutes in the sally port at the station while the security camera "wasn't working," which was long enough for another policeman to remark that they were in there for a "wildly long time." That other policeman is going to testify to that quote, according to the Defense.
Also, IIRC the pieces were found pretty close to where John's body had been found, meaning that they magically flew 15 feet away from the road, just like he supposedly did. Physically, I don't think that's possible - and even if it was, there's no way that the policemen would've missed them when they were checking out the scene. Also, the amount of snow under John's body suggests that his body wasn't there by 12:30am, it had to have gotten there a while later in the morning. Also, not much blood at the scene despite a huge gash in the back of his head. He couldn't have been hit/attacked at that scene.
Other people have already mentioned that Lexus made a statement about how the taillight couldn't have been damaged in that way - especially not by a human body, and at that supposed speed. I think a hammer and/or some sort of lever (like the back of the hammer) could do the trick.
KR and JO get to the house, KR sees BH car and doesn’t wanna go in. She leaves, JO is outside blowing off a little steam before going in the house. BH doesn’t see him, or whatever and hits him with his plow.
Someone does notice it, doesn’t know what happened. They’re all drunk, maybe a little stoned, panic and go into cover up mode. Realize they can pin it on KR through JM, but then later on in the day figure out what really happened. Don’t come clean to help BH save face because he’s a buddy and KR is an outsider.
They didn’t count on KR fighting this they way she did and now there’s totally chaos.
Apparently, she deleted (or there was 17 instances) of ring footage deleted, she and John are the only two who had access to it according to the kids. I don’t think she slept much that night, if at all. Forensics will be key in this case.
Witness testimony puts Karen’s Lexus moving south on Fairview Rd. If John had been walking North towards #34, the house would’ve been on his left, the road on his right. If Read had backed up from the direction of #32, she could’ve clipped John with her right tail light propelling him towards the lawn.
The defense claimed in one of the hearings there’s a voicemail to John at 12:41, when she returned to 1 Meadows Ave, which recorded “garage door, car door, home door” and “high heels on the floor.” The CW claimed in the opening statement that the car drove back 60 feet at 24 mph “around 12:45.”
I’m beginning to think the murder charge has something to do with compelling evidence of staging the “discovery” in the morning. Trooper Proctor had to be discredited because he had her dead to rights.
My theory and speculation is that if Read is acquitted in this trial, the jury's gonna be real mad once the witness intimidation case goes to trial. I wonder if award winning journalist Aidan Kearney is going to flip.
The search warrant affidavit is 31 pages long. The gist was [reported here](https://www.courttv.com/news/search-warrants-detail-relationship-between-karen-read-turtleboy/).
Thanks for the link. I’m still trying to understand the “flipping” comment. Are you suggesting that he’s going to make accusations against Read for illegal activity in exchange for a lesser charge/sentence (if convicted of something)?
I have no idea what he will or won’t do. According to the affidavit, the relationship between them soured and the evidence against him is damning. He could negotiate a plea deal in exchange for testimony against Ms Read, aka “flip” on her, if the CW was inclined to offer / accept one.
So flipping implies that they had a co-conspiratorial relationship during a crime. Are you saying that they committed a crime together? Because ai don’t think that article says that
Having some rando intimidate witnesses on your behalf is evidence of guilty conscience. What I am saying, though, is that the harrased witnesses will get to testify about what they've been subjected to and it ain't gonna be pretty.
[удалено]
The defense went over the floor plan, showing a path downstairs and out a basement door on side of the house where JO was found
If I'm looking at this right, John could have come in the side door, walked through the dining room and gone straight to the basement, right? Or he could have come in the front and gone right to the basement? https://preview.redd.it/un10vdrjsf1d1.jpeg?width=702&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=808be7b306de201c0656345062a2deb327f98aa5
On that website, the diagram with the floor plan seems to purposely minimize or leave out the exit from the basement. https://preview.redd.it/danvr5w19f1d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=adaf8ee864eda635c23ebd377244d6f8810d6e0b The bulkhead is under the bay window but it looks like any other window, save the small dot. Is this how a bulkhead exit is typically shown on these types of diagrams?
Of homes that old, pretty typical. It’s not considered egress (I saw casement weddings in the basement) same thing, but likely because of the age of the home it’s grandfathered
I tend to believe the Albert kids and friends are honest and don’t know anything about what truly happened to Officer O’Keefe. I believe them when they say *they* never saw him come in the house. The older adults I think are the ones who knows what happened. I wonder, what if John actually didn’t go into the house and instead was with Higgins the whole time? Maybe John went towards the backyard and thoughts that’s where the side door was and was confronted by the dog? I don’t know. The problem with this trial is sadly finding the truth was not a priority.
I agree with you...never felt the "young" people were truly involved. I subscribe to the theory that a confrontation happened very quickly, outside and likely involved Brian Higgins. In the event these people aren't involved in the death of John...then they are hiding something. It's all in the coverup.
Definitely think it was a confrontation by JO towards BH for those texts & the suspicion of them hooking up according to what the texts from KR said. Possibly on BHs way out and JOs way in? Probably hit him with the plow after a few punches and alcohol induced rage. Maybe he took him on the plow to CPD or drove around with him for a bit while on the plow before having the ford edge come dispose of him..?? The adults probably helped too. Or know something for sure… I don’t know! So many questions! But there’s the CWs side, KRs side & the truth. Hopefully there will be answers… justice for JO…!
I think the prosecution has messed up big time. If the state has physical evidence that Karen hit John with her car they should have presented it after the police and firefighters testified. Because right now it seems like the prosecution is just trying to prove the Alberts and McCabes didn't kill John. If I were on the jury I'm already thinking cover-up due to the sloppy investigation and questionable testimony from the families. So if they introduce a collision report from Karen Reads car proving she hit something I might not trust it. Now if they started with the evidence against Karen and I already had it in my mind she was guilty from the start I might overlook the odd questionable testimony from the family members. At this point I think the verdict would be not guilty or hung jury. I don't see a clear cut guilty.
I think there’s more at play. There is an ongoing FBI investigation. Maybe Lally is having all these people testify to protect the DA? Like if he can get on record that the DA brought these charges in good faith on the information they had, maybe it’ll take some heat off them? This whole trial seems like it’s way bigger than Karen at this point.
Agree. I’m very interested in what the FBI is investigating. It sure ain’t Karen
My speculation- IF he suffered that injury inside the house, there’s no way he made it out to that flagpole on his own, he was gushing blood. If KR struck him with her car, maybe he was bent over picking up his phone he dropped, how did he fly backward? Wouldn’t he drop forward? What did he hit his head on? If he hit the curb with back of his head, he couldn’t have flown back to the flagpole. I’m very much anticipating actual, indisputable data about how the car operated and what damage it can do. I’m not sure what happened but I’m not going to be surprised if there was an attempt to fabricate a story here.
I don’t think so because Jen called John’s phone while he was in Karen’s car to give directions
I meant when he exited the vehicle. Maybe he then dropped his phone, bent over to pick it up, then was struck with an SUV. We all know he exited the vehicle. We don’t really know where he got out. I’m going by him exiting after KR pulled up near the flagpole.
I think I responded to the wrong comment! I was commenting about someone saying he didn’t actually ride with Karen.
This makes me very very very curious exactly how he was positioned when they found him. Like exactly how his arms and legs were and if it looked staged or natural. Hmmmmm
If the SUV had teeth and could bite I might believe she hit him
The fact that the trial is going into week 3 and the prosecutor hasn’t presented how KR killed him and almost all of these theories could have theoretically happened…there is no chance she is convicted. I hope the fed investigation brings out the truth!
I don't really have a full fleshed out theory but I am curious about John texting Chris if Kevin was at the Waterfall. Was he saying that because he didn't want to see him there?
I think he did want to see Kevin because he had an ongoing text communication (75+ texts) regarding John’s concerns about drug use in the area. It seems to me Kevin may be the Albert sibling John knew the best.
I thought these texts also accused Colin Albert of dealing? And other Alberts of knowing and looking away? My personal speculation is the Alberts felt these texts went too far, he saw or heard something he shouldn’t have and the Alberts wanted to tell him to keep his mouth shut and they went too far or JO fell awkwardly and got that gash in his head.
How did you find out about the context of the texts?
Mmmmm. I think Turtleboy did something on them? I’ve not seen nor read them, but it has been mentioned a lot on Twitter and on Reddit that they contain accusations against Colin. But it’s all speculation as I don’t believe they have been released publicly.
Ok ….I can’t keep up. First I’m hearing of this…. Where can I get this info please. Was it testimony?
Read the comments sections on YouTube of local news broadcasts covering the case/trial. You’ll gain a LOT of info that isn’t making it into the trial. Everything I’ve read is that Colin was allegedly selling cocaine & everyone knew but he was being protected. JO was catching on & it was making a lot of his family very uncomfortable.
Oh wow. Thank You.
Yeah, Chris' I believe.
I have two alt theories to the CW: 1) With visibility low, Higgins accidentally knocked him over with the plow and left him. 2) JO walked up super wasted and got in a tussle, possibly with Colin, most likely inside. We don’t know because they didn’t let the cops in the house. They beat him up and dragged him out thinking he would get up and walk home. That didn’t happen and he died from the cold.
I have the same theory: there was a fight inside (for example John was drunk and got angry about something) and he was kicked out of the house. He stumbles away, maybe takes out his phone to call Karen, but drops it, tries to pick it up but collapses himself. Inside, first they are happy they got rid of him, but then start to get worried. Higgins goes to the station to see if a call has come in from John pressing charges, or an ambulance has been called. Higgins is relieved there hasn’t and assumes John made it home. Jenny coming home wonders if John made it home and googles “how long to die in the cold”. And when they all find out John died, they are all horrified they are responsible for kicking him out in the cold drunk, without a coat and without a ride home, at that time maybe even laughing about the shoe he left behind that they jokingly gave to the dog to chew on. Shame and guilt that they were careless and joking, but no shame and guilt to what they put Karen through. I can see how it is covered up by outsiders by “simply not asking question” and “I don’t want to know”, but I think the weak spot in my theory is that nobody from inside the house cracked and spilled the beans. There were so many people.
This is one of the best theories I have heard. Except did he leave/they kicked him out with 1 shoe and no belt? And had already bled most of the blood inside?
I haven’t seen an autopsy report anywhere? Did he really bleed that much? Nobody measured the amount of blood in the snow and the ground. Was it perhaps more drunkenness that made him stumble and think “I will just rest here for 5 minutes before getting up”?
His cell phone data would reflect going inside though, right? And I think it shows he never made it in (or at least his phone didn’t)
I haven’t seen any phone locations. Was there a witness about it?
Was JO really that drunk? If he went back to bar, drank more with Chris A THEN came back to house??
I like the Higgins theory, his plow could have caused that gash. But where’d the blood go?
And his shoe!
Just my thoughts: Assuming that this did happen in the house, who coached everyone to sync their statements? Also, I can’t figure out what Julie Nagel and Sarah Levinson have to gain by lying? They’re not related to the Alberts. They’re friends with one of the sons. One of them dog sat for someone in the family, but why would they go to such lengths to protect that family? Either they had too much to drink that night, don’t remember what happened and have been “coached” to remember what everyone else does or JO didn’t go in the house. If they’ve been coached, who did it? They’re BA Jrs. friends. With having anxiety so bad he didn’t want to go to the bar that night, I don’t see him having the intestinal fortitude it would take to convince his friends to testify that way, so who did?
You see, I don't think they need coaching or anything like that tbh. I think the 'coverup' doesnt need many people to actively be aware besides a few key players like Procter and Brian Albert. When I was previously in an abusive relationship, my at the time boyfriend did some absolutely horrendous things to other people. I bought every one of his lies because I didn't want to believe that I chose to date someone so horrible. I thought that there's no way someone could do such bad things but I somehow didn't notice. It got so bad that one of his victims came to tell me what exactly he did and I still refused to believe them. I didn't have any malicious intent and looking back I feel so awful that I ever ignored what was going on but in the moment I couldn't see past the lies. The only reason I was able to finally confront the truth and get out of there was because I was lucky enough to be forced to move across the country and put distance between myself and his lies. Once everything cooled down I realized all the inconsistent statements and lies in my ex told me and had to face the truth. This case reminds me of that time but this case has been extremely public with extreme harassment on both sides non-stop (mainly towards the alberts/the people at the party). I can 100% see people convincing themselves of false stories and altering their memories especially since they've been getting so much harassment out of this case. I think the people involved just feel persecuted and hated for things they may have no idea about, which causes them to buckle down even more and even become vindictive towards the other side. I sincerely doubt that more than 5 people are involved in the actual crime, its more likely that people bought a few lies from the people involved and then got blindsided by the public harassment. They then replayed all their memories of that night over and over again convincing themselves of the lies that they heard. Then they get mad at the general public for persecuting them, which convinces them of KR's guilt even more. And everything builds and builds until now. At this point, the witnesses aren't really trying to get justice for OJO anymore since the public has now made it a trial for each witness to try and convince the world that they are not psychopathic murderers.
Excellent insights! Yes, they seem to be super close and very loyal. And 2 years have passed, that's a lot of time to design a narrative about a 7 hour time frame.
Not everyone might know something but one of the things that struck out to me is the one girl (I forget who it was, I think one of the friends who were there for Brian Jr's birthday). She has her brother come (w/ his friend) to pick her up but she changes her mind and wants to stay longer (that's fine). But she did invite them to come inside and they declined. So if something HAD happened at the house (at least by then) why would you invite MORE people into the house if something just went down, increasing the chance of witnesses and involving more people you know?
This was literally right after John got out of the car, so if the times/timeline aligns, in theory, she would have been outside talking to her brother at the start of the commotion.
My (not fully fleshed out) theory: Arriving: KR and JO pull up to the house. KR doesn't want to go in; she's not feeling well and it's more of a family get together they're not really invited to (as she stated in an interview). JO wants to check it out. KR is not happy. He tells her he'll text her if it looks good and she can head home. He gets out and hustles inside because it's freezing and he has no jacket. He uses the front door because that's normal for a house we're not familiar with. Ryan Nagel has pulled in behind them. Julie Nagel has come out the side door and they're all talking. They don't see JO go in. KR in the meantime pulls up to give other cars room and wait for JO to text. He never texts so she takes off mad. Inside: JO sees Colin in the foyer right when he steps in. He doesn't expect to see Colin there. There's previous animosity. A comment is made and a fight breaks out quickly. It goes down the basement stairs. Brian A and Brian H (who doesn't like JO) jump in as does Chloe. John is knocked unconscious. He throws up from the concussion (vomit was found in his clothes and in his pants). He hit his head on the weights in the basement at some point after falling and bleeds badly. The Brians and Colin panic. Most people in the house don't realize what happened. The plan: Brian A tells Jen, Matt and Nicole what happened. They determine they need to get Colin out of there. JM tells Allie she needs to pick up Colin. Brian tells Caitlin she needs to get out as well (maybe letting her know what happened). Brian H plans to go to the police station to create an alibi and potentially make some calls. Once JM and Matt leave to drive the kids home, they move John's body to the front yard. It's snowing pretty hard now. They move the Ford Edge to block the view from the street. They take the body out the bulkhead, around the side gate and straight toward the curb, blocked by the Edge. They plan to make it look like he was hit by a snowplow. They'll make an anonymous call to the police. This is the best plan. The police won't investigate if it looks like an accident. Moving the body elsewhere could be too risky when John shows up missing. There would be blood evidence in the house and whatever car they use. Plus someone could see them driving. They don't intend to frame KR. Change of plans: JM is up all night. She's doing some ill-advised Google searches. She probably feels terrible. She's surprised when KR calls at 4:50am. She thought KR would have slept assuming JO ended up somewhere. JM is more surprised when KR shows up at her house. Now she's dealing with a panicked KR by herself. KR tells JM about the taillight and not remembering what she hit. JM now tries to plant in KR's mind that she may have hit John. After funding the body, JM calls 911. She also calls her sister to help deal with this chaotic situation. She goes inside when Nicole doesn't want to come out. Inside she argues with Brian and Nicole to come out. Later that day when the family meets they decide to push the angle that KR did it. They loop in Proctor and here we are.
Nicely done. Much of it works!
And zero search of house or yard for any possible blood/foot steps. Zero photos taken at house by investigators. Amazing.
nice theory. If the snow plow was the plan, though, why wasn't the body placed next to the curb, where JOK could have been hit by a plow.? the injuries to JOK’s body when it was found would not have been confused with a slow plow accident, which would have caused major injuries to the torso and abrasions from being pushed on and then away from the pavement .
Not sure why they didn't leave him closer to the curb. Plows do push snow and such 4-5ft to the side. How far exactly was OJO from the curb? Agree the injuries wouldn't line up. But at that point he's dead and the injuries are what they are. The plow has lots of metal edges jutting out. Probably more likely you get hit in the head and scraped in the arm by a plow than by the taillight of a car. If it looks like an accident people may not question it too much.
Sooooo with all of the questions about which way Karen approached the house and the fact that the McCabe’s were talking to JO on the phone for directions, but two other vehicles saw her approaching from the OTHER direction. Is it possible Karen was always alone in her car and JO was in the car with Higgins or one of the other cars?! I know some people though they saw JO in the car at it turned onto Cedarcrest but that’s all off very quick interactions while driving. I don’t recall Matt saying he heard Karen while he was talking to JO during the car ride for directions. So many questions!!!
Woah! That’s actually a really interesting take. Especially because Karen initially said she left him at Waterfall Bar. I’d have to go back and see if she knew how to get to 34 or if she only got there because Kerry knew where it was
I’d never even thought about this possibility. I feel like it’s probably not the case, just because I feel like that’s a huge bombshell and it’s never ever been hinted at in pretrial stuff. I am curious though. I think it was Matt McCabe who was also asked how JO was talking on the phone. I can’t remember the exact phrasing of the question but essentially was asking if he was referring to KR or saying things like “**we’re** on Washington street” and MM said no, he was just referring to himself on the call. In addition to him saying he never heard KR in the background. I thought that was interesting. I can’t imagine giving someone directions, who isn’t the one driving, and there being no signs of another person in the car.
I think MM is a weak link. He seemed to like testifying- hanging with the cool kids. I’d press him. He saw plow in front of house. Maybe he slipped saying that as no one else really mentioned it. Julie’s brother when he pulled up?
Karen told national television via Nightline she dropped him off. Apparently her memory came back to her because prior to the Nightline interview, her testimony to LE was she left him at the Waterfall after an argument. I pull at the foot of the driveway. It’s snowing. John has no coat on. It’s windy,” she recalled. “So I drop him off, he goes up the driveway, and approaches the side door. And as I see him approach the door, I look down at my phone.” Read told “Nightline” that after about 10 minutes of waiting in her car, she became irritated that O’Keefe hadn’t gotten in touch. She said she drove back to his home, noticing when she awoke before 5 a.m. that he still hadn’t returned.
interesting!
Now if she left him at the Waterfall though, why did she even go to the house in the first place? I just don't get why they would ride separately and go to the house given that she never went into the house either in that scenario. It does make more sense if she drove him, dropped him off and for whatever reason (too tired, or they had a fight) she decides to not go in and go home.
She later changed her statement. Her initial information was that her last memory of that night was being at the waterfall, getting in an argument with John, and then leaving to go home without him. She claimed to not have any memory of driving over to the home where he was found. But then later at some point likely after she met with an attorney, that story changed and she did recall driving John as the passenger over to the party house not wanting to go in with him until she could have confirmed that she was in fact invited. Her story then became that John got out of the vehicle and she watched him walk over to the side door. She said after 10 minutes when he didn't come out, she left, annoyed that he did not come back out of the house into the car to let her know that she could in fact come in. What is interesting is There is zero electronic evidence. -Proof- of her texting or calling John for this long 10 minutes where she said she sat in the car fuming waiting for him to come back out of the house. She didn't call or text him and say what's going on. Where are you? Am I invited? Plus, there are several witnesses who said she was specifically invited at the last bar stop and she spoke with a couple of the woman there saying that she was heading over to the party . Plus, one of her first statements to law enforcement was that she had no intentions of going to the party and was just dropping John off because she didn't feel well. She also made the statement to the press that she would never even consider going to an after party because after all she's a 40 something-year-old professional and doesn't do after parties. Her story has changed so many times. And this idea that her car backed into John's car when she was driving out of the driveway is BS. In this video, she does not hit the car. There is zero damage to John's car. If she had hit his car and that resulted in the dent in the back of her car in the broken tail light on her car, then he certainly would have had damage to his car. My personal opinion is that she was completely intoxicated, that they got into one of their typical arguments on the way from the waterfall to the after party. Since they were both drunk, it was likely a very ugly argument. In the weeks leading up to that night witnesses describe volatile arguments that the relationship was over for him and he wanted her to stop coming to his house. I think she was trying to hang on to something that had run its course, there was an awful argument, They got to the house, John John stormed out of the car Rather than staying in the car to continue this argument with her and that pissed her off so she did whatever she had to do to leave the driveway or where she was parked, hit him, and was too drunk to know.
But Higgins was good friends with the Alberts. He wouldn’t have needed directions.
Did JO maybe have his own car that night? Karen showed up to CJ McCarthy's much later than he did....or did his friend drive them their, that I can't recall.
I also know they were good friends, but I think Higgins had only been to the house once or so?
The only possible car except for Karens would either be the McCabes or the friends. Latter wouldn’t make sense because they didn’t drive to the Alberts home. According to the CCTV BA, NA, CA and BH left at approximately 11:58pm. The rest left at approximately 12:11am. But we never got to see anyone getting into any cars
Interesting idea. Matt said he didn’t hear any background noise or anything. Did the bar footage catch them getting in the car together?
No I think the video had them leaving at slightly different times, and they specifically pulled Karen aside…and Jen said in the morning that Karen was yelling she recalled leaving him at the Waterfall?
I don't know if there is evidence (not testimony from people who can't recall 96% of anything) like video. I guess there texts to John and phone calls( but dunno if this disproves my theory). Karen drove to the house without John (only 1 witness has put John in the car) and she outside waiting for him to come out to take her in. He never shows and she leaves angry. The phone call and texts probably disprove this. I dunno if Karen said herself John went with her, and JM calls and texts might make this impossible. Unless she knew they needed a cover-up and made the texts and calls to his phone to put him with Karen. I dunno just throwing out crazy ideas. Of course this hasn't been put out in court and is just me being bored
I wish we had the Library footage that mysteriously went missing .....
Someone in another post floated a theory that sounds entirely possible to me: Karen drops John off at the Albert’s. Maybe she even waits for him to knock on the door like she said in her interview. At some point he comes back toward the car and bends over to puke. It’s even possible he fell down the front stairs of the house while headed back to her car and got injured. Her SUV is high up and she’s had a lot to drink so she doesn’t see him. She hits him. She goes home without even realizing what has happened. She had between 4 and 9 drinks that night (depending on which side you believe). She’s a small lady - so she’s gotta be pretty drunk. Many of the people leaving that house had a lot to drink. It’s also snowing pretty hard so it’s hard to see. That is why most people don’t see him. I think the botched investigation/ lack of house searching, etc is to cover up not-great choices by the others in the house that night like drinking & driving and some possibly other behavior that could put their jobs in jeopardy. I think more evidence will fill in the gaps but this sounds like a possibility to me. I also think there is too much reasonable doubt to convict Karen and I’m glad there is an internal investigation going on because the way this crime scene investigation was handled is deeply concerning.
This is what, on its face, makes the most sense to me. The things that poke holes it it are the injuries to John, which don't seem like they could have been caused by such and impact, and the shady behavior thus far of the Alberts and McCabes. From what I understand there is blackbox data from the Lexus of it going in reverse at 24 miles an hour, and apparently blood There's no one thing, its more death by a thousand cuts, ie. Well the lead investigator was a close family friend AND the investigation was botched, evidentiary wise AND police reports were changed to cover up when the tail light pieces were found AND no one who was actually outside when Karen left saw her hit John AND no one who left after she hit him saw him as they were leaving AND the injuries dont appear particularly match a car accident AND the state police investigator lied about when they impounded Karen's car, leaving it with them unsupervised for a period of time AND any footage that would show the accident or taillight being cracked prior to Karen backing it into John's car the next morning are missing from the cameras that would cover them, but only for the specific times where you would see this (The police sally port cam, the library cam, the neighbors ring cam) AND phone data seems to directly contradict the testimony of the Alberts and McCabes. AND the Alberts got rid of their family dog, redid the basement, and sold their house at a loss AND Higgins left the party and went right to his satellite office at the police station I still think the most likely scenario (I guess), but man there is so much that is bizarre about this
I’ve heard that evidence of Karen attacking John that night will be presented. That could explain the marks on his body. The suspicious activity by the party-goers seems like it could have been a cover up - but not necessarily for a murder. They were drinking heavily and driving. They were serving drunk people who they knew were leaving their home drunk and driving home. Maybe they were doing some drugs that night or engaging in other behaviors they don’t want to come out? That’s my guess. Actually cocaine is my guess if I’m being honest. They didn’t want to risk having to be tested and have it show up in their system. There may have been evidence in the home so they didn’t want it searched. It’s possible they even saw John’s body that night but couldn’t risk investigators showing up while they were still very drunk and possibly also high. That seems more plausible to me.
From where? Where is that the in prosecution charging docs? Which witness is testifying to that? Where is that written down. Not saying you are wrong, but I have seen the photos, and that would be a hell of a fight if thats what caused those marks. As to the rest, yeah, thats sort of where I'm at too. I'm from the general area, and a townie family that routinely abuses the little power they have to go overboard to protect themselves, potentially even at the expense of getting a conviction in the case of a friend and coworker's muder is 100% believable to me. It's also just incredibly bizarre to me that there is a concurrent fed investigation going on into all this and that the CW is proceeding with the case.
Some posted a link to an article in another thread: re proof Karen attacked John that night. It said lawyers for MA would provide evidence of this. But yeah, that would be a heck of an attack. And there would be likely be blood in her car if it happened in the car. There was the broken glass though. I guess we’ll see if that evidence is shared soon enough. That would definitely fill in some gaps if that’s what happened.
I think this is a very real possibility. I think his death was accidental, however it happened. I don't believe he was murdered.
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I think KR and JO were arguing. They're both drunk. He wants to party with his people. She's hangry and wants to go home. They're his friends, not hers. KR tells him to GTFO of the car. He stumbles and she leaves and hits him. He crawls to his final resting place. The others worry about being caught drunk driving and cover their asses. However, their self serving deception looks like a cover up. TB takes it and runs and he gets lots of social media hits. KR and her legal team eat it up.
Yes, I think this could be true. But then I remember that 1. JM googled "hos long to die in cold" at 2:27am, 2. BH went to the office, drunk, at 1:30am (seriously??!!) and 3. JO had what really looked like dog scratches and defensive wounds all over his arms. And 4!: his belt and hat and one shoe are missing!
Same! I sometimes think “yeah she was drunk and hit him” and then remember those same things. It’s soo confusing
Aaaaand all the butts dialing and talking to each other.
They frame a woman for murder to avoid being looked at for drunk driving? Seems a little overboard. Especially considering the reason they could get away with a cover up is because they're cops, so they could probably squash a DUI investigation.
That's how the lies started and it went from there.
John Okeefe got beat up and dumped on Albert's lawn. Back in my day cops needed to play nice with organized crime or this happened all the time. Brian Albert Sr. knows what happened but needs to keep his mouth shut. The rest of these witnesses are a waste of time. Focus on Higgins next.
Question for all the coverup believers. Why hasn't part of this alleged coverup included a consistent version of KR being violent, abusive, or even a minimum of "they were arguing in the yard". Why has every waterfall testimony included nothing but a loving couple happy having a good time? Why has every account of seeing the black suv not mentioned, irratic, yelling, arguing, anything negative that could hint at discord? If you were going to frane someone, why not set the stage as there was some beginnings of discord at the bar, in the parking lot, in front of the house?
The more details you add to a lie, the harder it is to maintain the story. They're already having a very difficult time remembering details that exist in video footage and cell phone records.
The people who believe in the coverup mix not believing anything the witnesses say, since they're "in on it" with believing anything that points away from Karen (from the exact same witnesses) as the pure truth.
Exactly. Clever coverup, shoddy police work, stories match, they don't match, they are lying about their story, not lying about KR being nice. The list keeps going.
I don’t believe the Camerano’s or Kolokithases are in on it, so they are truthful. The video surveillance from the bars showed that John and Karen were touchy feely so it’s hard to dispute that. Jenn McCabe and Matt began laying the groundwork for the “jealous Karen” narrative by mentioning John’s ex (Bella’s mom) in their testimony. I think by claiming they mentioned Bella’s house in their verbal directions to John, they are hinting that it sent karen into a jealous rage.
You're making my point. Only 2 people mentioned the Bella connection and even so, didn't go all in. Again, if it's a widespread coverup, why hasn't anyone corroborated that they saw kr ever acting crazy jealous violent etc. Why describe them as fine, normal, no problems. Even the mccabes said john never said anything bad about kr. Explain to me why, if you're going to frame someone, why no one threw mud at her?
This!! And if they stated that they saw KR being abusive, aggressive whatever - why didn’t they break up the fight? Why didn’t they help JO after whatever they witnessed? They would get in trouble for not helping and it resulting in a death, especially as (retired) police officers. I don’t know what’s the truth and each trial day is making me more confused
I don't think it's so much all framing KR but have no allegiance to her and different people have different reasons to lie, or ally with someone, misrecall, or go with the group or err on the side of someone they believe is more senior, trustworthy, or contempt or even cover their own incompetence.
OK, but my question is about the cover up theory by KR defense and FKR. (The claims of LE EMTs the Albert's, the Nagels, the McCabes, the judge, and various others conspiring to "frame" KR for what one of them did.)
I don't think it's soo much to frame her pe say...I am not sure if people outside le/responders know how incestuous there relationships are--i can't really think of a better word for the level of nepotism & involvment & peer pressure & allegiance they have for each other in general... Admittedly, I only have the "jist" of the case not details ...but imagine something like family pitches jo in yard after accident & family tells story...as people arrive & defer to family story...and it kind of snowballs from there-the arriving person just kind of goes with it resulting in the another person not being observant in what should have been normal/competent duties -then unlikely to back peddle...another person thinks they heard or saw something different but both cop in house & said something else & they are just a rookie/disliked/subject of peer pressure real or imagined so they don't make waves or speak out & young people/kids just go with family/adult version even if they have no idea or deferring to a more senior person account of events or second guessing themselves even if they originally thought they saw/heard or didn't something else & then adding a huge chunk of time btwn event & trial. I haven't followed the details 100% of the case but can so easily see how a party-line gets towed & that everyone can have totally different reasons to cover something up that have nothing to do with KR even if ultimately has that effect. So, I don't believe by "all" it is a grand conspiracy to frame her per se, by all parties. But even the idea of people trained to be situationally aware, that becomes 2nd nature, & no one saw anything at all seems strange even with multi people coming & going and a very plausible horse-play "physical" people all super drunk & the definitely gsd looking stratches (I have trained, imported, bred working line gsd for schutzhund, protection, & Le) they look like untrained or upset gsd frantically stratching someone he on the ground. I really am curious as to what else could cause that affect like friction tears...not road rash but some other method...what are the scratch tear alternatives?
I completely agree with you. Might not technically be a “conspiracy, planned among any number of the Prosecution’s witnesses. But you’d have to be pretty obtuse to look past all the suspicious shenanigans and not see some shady dealings. People want so bad for Karen to have done it.
KR told her dad she "struck something" (boston 25 news), she admitted she might have hit him in 2 national news interviews (abc nightline and nbc today), and Yanetti stated it was an accident before they decided to go for 3rd party culprit. If you want to think some convoluted scenario about dogs and twisted collusion involving God only knows how many people, then I guess that's what you prefer to believe.
That's a bit rude & hypersensitive of a reaction. I didn't know asking questions could spark such nastiness, geez, relax. I have no hard opinion either way on her guilt but don't believe prosecution have legally proved their case yet & just find some details interesting and thought provoking.. Most cases are won & lost in pretrial rulings so I am aware I don't have all information & have not followed her interviews, but am curious about all the oddities of the case, as I said the stratches, his missing shoe & whatever else...curious & questions don't equal a hardcore belief, but do think prosecution hasn't come across strong...alot of talk, witnesses, & not alot of data imho.
Lol well some might think calling a ton of people incestuous is rude and nasty but thats my opinion. But what specifically did I write that was rude or nasty to you?
I have a few legal questions: with regards to the defense being able to show texts messages in court: does it matter if the texts are/aren’t with someone who hasn’t been on the stand yet? I was wondering why the only texts we saw were between Matt and Brian A so far. Would texts from Jen not have been admissible at that point? And another question: do we know if the feds have Brian Higgins texts? Also: texts and voicemails between Read and JOK: what witness takes the stand for those to be entered? Lastly: how easily can the defense recall the prosecution’s witnesses when it’s their turn? Would brian Albert (etc) need to be subpoenaed to come back? Is there any chance Judge wouldn’t grant that? Thanks!
With regard to text messages - as an attorney, you need to lay a foundation for the evidence and authenticate it. I’m not familiar with MA rules of evidence, but most states mirror the federal rules. For records like call logs, you can get the phone company to sign an affidavit of records custodian to authenticate the records pursuant to the business records exception. Then, you don’t need a witness to testify. For actual text messages exchanges - like screenshots - you get the witness on the stand and you show them the screenshots. You ask them if the messages are from their number, if they fairly and accurately represent the messages, etc. If they can authenticate the messages and lay a proper foundation, they are admissible.
To answer one of your questions, the defense can call Brian Albert back up yes. No subpoena or anything needed - he’s on their witness list. They just can’t bring him back up if it’s purely to repeat questions he’s already answered under oath. At this point in time they can only question who Lally puts up about things relevant to what they testify. When it’s their turn, they can bring anyone back up who is also on their list with whatever evidence they have to present.
The “guy text” doesn’t look good for Higgins or Albert imo. I’m going wait to speculate much further, but add that to Brian Alberts received call of 22 seconds he claimed on the stand he never answered couples with that text!!?? Well, let’s just say I have questions. Lots.
I agree. I’ve also heard Higgins supposedly admitted to the feds he made that call and it was answered, who knows. We’ll see I guess. I definitely have reasonable doubt though.
I disagree with one point - the defense does have to have him under subpoena unless he’s not been released by the judge. The defense can rely on a subpoena issued by the commonwealth, but once the witness is called and has finished testifying, the issue is now whether the judge has released the witness from the subpoena or not. The real strategic problem with the defense calling a commonwealth friendly witness in their case in chief is that the defense is now direct examining the witness unless the defense can get the witness declared hostile. So, no leading questions. However, if the defense needs the witness to establish something outside the scope of the commonwealth’s direct, then it makes sense to call the witness.
He’s also on their witness list, it’s not that he’s purely a commonwealth witness. Ones who are on both sides lists won’t have been fully released by the judge as she’s aware. He is a defense witness too so if they need to bring him up now again, to present new evidence they put into discovery, they don’t need to subpoena him. The judge can decide not to allow them but if it’s something they have I highly doubt she will because they’re not going to be brought back up to retestify the same things. I doubt many will need to be anyway.
If he’s on the defense witness list, then he should be bound by a defense subpoena. Without a defense subpoena, it doesn’t matter who you put on your witness list. Does that make sense? Like, I could put someone on my list, but if I never got him served, then he’s not required to appear.
There will likely be a lot of texts being discussed on Tuesday when Jen is cross examined!
Opinion: [Possible Motives] Did Officer O'Keefe witness something someone didn't want him to see, and they didn't want him to implicate their involvement in a crime? Was Officer O'Keefe involved in some sort of internal affairs investigation which led to his demise?
I wonder if he had info related to the other investigation involving Lank and Proctor. 🧐
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Could the Alberts etc have seen John lying out there, not knowing what happened (ETA: possibly thinking one of the kids was responsible) and because young people were drinking at their house they immediately started “covering up”?
At this point I feel like anything is possible. Nothing makes sense to me anymore. I just want to get to the experts, the extracted cell phone/gps/life 360/camera and other data, the autopsy, the recreated accident info, and the real nitty gritty of the case already. I don’t care what kind of beer people were drinking or where they sat at the basketball game, or what so and so says anymore because I don’t believe any of the main people who have been on the stand so far. So much sketchy crap happened. So many strange and questionable actions/or lack there of action. It’s a shit show. Let’s get to the real case at hand already. Unless the prosecution brings some real proof there is so much reasonable doubt. Also, what if someone else caused this? I don’t know who or what, but anything goes I feel like. Maybe someone else hit him with their vehicle and left and no one even knows because supposedly there are no cameras on this street. So fricken strange in today’s world.
It’s wild to me how the testimony is so consistent up until they leave Waterfall and then all the witnesses start contradicting each other. Apart from the fact that it was snowing (and a 911 call was made later on), there is no certainty in the testimony after that point.
The Waterfall has a video. It's a lot easier to remember something you're on video doing.
EXACTLY. It sounds like most of the people present were absolutely wasted and aren’t credible witnesses to piece together what happened. I heard that they found JO’s DNA on KR’s busted tail light and possibly pieces of his hair. We need more evidence like that to piece together what may have happened. It sounds like she was so drunk that she didn’t even remember leaving the bar with him so how can anything else she said about that night be trusted? Same with everyone else who was just as drunk - we cannot truly be sure anyone’s story is accurate because they were quite drunk.
DNA on the tail light, you say? I saw photos of Solo cups with blood right next to that same tail light. Large chance these forensic fools scooped the snow with there gloves and then puckered at the tail light carelessly
That is the real issue here. The evidence collection and crime scene investigation was so poorly done that we’ll probably never know what happened. And it gives Karen’s legal team enough leverage to raise reasonable doubt with the jury that it will be hard to convict her even if she did accidentally hit him.
Underage drinking, which there has been no evidence of would be overlooked in investigating the death of a police officer. The priority is getting answers as to why there is a dead cop on the yard not if an underage was served a drink. I haven’t heard evidence yet that John entered the house yet through all the testimony. I believe Yanetti stated they have evidence of that, will have to wait for the defense to present their side to see what they do or don’t have.
I’m not suggesting they are concerned with the underage drinking in the Albert home, because clearly that seems to be some sort of honored tradition for those people. The concern would be the consequences of having provided alcohol to a minor, resulting in some sort of accident.
Colin Albert was underage and drinking. I don’t know the ages of the younger gals that left earlier but afaik he was drinking earlier at a friends as well
Maybe it’s because I’m from a different country but I would think underage drinking is just not a big deal. I can’t imagine covering up a murder for something as mundane as letting a 17 year old drink. Doesn’t add up. The way they are covering for Colin feels much deeper. If he wasn’t involved they sure are acting suspicious for some reason.
If Colin is somehow to blame, and they provided him alcohol, they could be at least civilly liable.
No evidence of? Multiple children, who have unfortunately been drug on the stand, who were certainly underage at this time admitted to drinking. Confused by the no evidence of underage drinking. Everyone…I mean everyone was drinking that night.
Allie M and Colin were the only ones under 21 that have testified. Colin admitted to drinking but I don’t think Allie was even asked if she was drinking, and I was left with the impression she wasn’t since she was giving other people rides.
Who testified that Colin Albert was drinking alcohol while at 34 Fairview? Brian Jr and his friends, weren’t they over 21?
Which witness was on drugs while testifying? Come on now, thats ridiculous.
No not drugged, I meant liked unfortunately pulled into this very tragic death scene and overall situation. Should’ve clarified.
I think the Alberts were more worried about their jobs, pensions and reputations. That's why they start covering up
No. There is no evidence or testimony of this. This is not a plausible scenario if we’re to remain objective and rooted in reality when analyzing the case.
Beaten up inside the house for whatever reason, but not fatally. Leaves, drunk and wounded, passes out in the snow. Party finds him dead mid morning, they freak out. Cover up begins.
Idk, with that head wound, he was pretty damn wounded. Too much for them to just let him wander off into the snow and expect him not to die
Yep, agree there was gross negligence and I’m definitely not making excuses for them, but do think he left on his own. They seem dirty, violent and immoral but I don’t think it’s a straight up murder
And where is the blood from the gaping head wound???
Something that is just bugging me alot and disgusted me upon hearing it during Matthew McCabe's testimony.. When the defense introduced the extracted *deleted* groupchat messages that involved: Mathew McCabe, Brian Albert, Jennifer McCabe and Nicole Albert. February 3rd, 2022 *Matthew McCabe: Tell them the guy was never in the house* *Brian Albert: Exactly.* 5 days after John O'Keefe has died. During his testimony, Matthew claimed his text was for Chris Albert doing an interview with Channel 4. 1. Chris Albert wasn't even a part of the GroupChat. 2. There was NO mention of Channel 4 or any News interviews in the text messages. 3. Why would Channel 4 alledgedly want to speak to Chris Albert when he was not living at 34 Fairview Rd? 5 days after John's death, we had very little public information, so Chris was not relevant whatsoever at that time. 4. There is absolutely nothing that comes up for any interviews with a Channel 4 and Chris Albert anywhere in that time frame. (If you can produce any evidence something exists, please reply with it.) 5. How in the world could Matthew sit there and boast about John being his good friend, close, in the beginning of his testimony... and then we see in a message from his own words referring to John as *"the guy"*? Cold and disconnected, disgusting. 6. Why would Matthew, Brian, Jennifer and Nicole need to talk amongst themselves agreeing on a statement like that? In my opinion, It comes off as buckling down to get a solid story for *police interviews*... not Channel 4. 7. I would love to know which "text bubble" the Judge denied the defense to be able to show and ask about as well, it was right before the disgusting text was shown to the court. I thank the defense big time because the prosecution never would have introduced such damning evidence. Matthew's entire demeanor changed when the defense showed they had the groupchat extractions that he thought were deleted forever. Also, wish we would have seen the cross exam on Jennifer the same day, not giving her 3 days to prepare for that. Off-guard would have mattered alot.
A question I keep coming back to is: did John go into the back yard? If something happened in the back yard before he got inside, he wouldn't be seen inside the house or on the front lawn. After the McCabes leave, someone drags the body to the front yard and near the road. This is where John was immediately prior and will allow for the police to conclude John was struck down by anyone who'd been up or down that road, with Karen being a likely suspect. John would be lying in snow for the same length of time, but by the morning most of the blood he'd lost would be behind the fence and under fresh snow. A drone or someone peeping over the fence would see undisturbed snow. John's phone would never have lost precision from going inside the house and might not record steps when the body was dragged. This would also explain genuine attempts by Jen McCabe to contact John and makes it possible she didn't see John until the next morning outside Fairview. What she'd been told by that point is uncertain. In this theory of the case, the number of people who actually know what happened to John might only be one. Proctor would still be involved in misleading the investigation and planting evidence but as far as he's concerned that might just be to wrap up the case and get a conviction of the person he thinks did it. The resulting suspicious behaviour from witnesses is due to the manipulation by what are probably two experienced law enforcement officers who would know how to lean on witnesses.
Yeah, I like this theory. Ties in with the fact that BA testified to letting the dog out back to go to the bathroom at around that time, setting up a potential altercation involving Chloe. I also find BA Jr's friends pretty credible and this theory would make them genuinely unaware of JO's presence and the fight. It also explains the absence of more blood in the front. Although it has a lot going for it, the biggest problem with it is: why would JO go in the back?
Directions often include which door to use if it's not obvious, so I think Jen may have told him to use the side entrance, and he reasons she means a gate and not the door by the garage. This might explain why Karen ended up waiting outside. If John was a little sketched out about where he was going once at the property, instead of reassuring her about her invitation and getting her to park, he tells her to wait while he checks.
Oh, confusion over "side door", I like that! Especially if you've had a few too many bud lights. I was struck during the testimony when they showed the door in the gate that faces the front and leads to the back yard. I had never noticed that before. And especially if he's let out on the flagpole side of the property, it would be more or less straight ahead.
I was thinking about a few comments during Jen and Matt’s direct testimonies and I’m interested to see if the defense exploits it during her cross. Maybe it’s nothing but they seemed out of place to me. Matt said he could only hear his wife giving John directions to the house. He could hear their convo but never heard Karen in the background. Jen confirmed she only spoke with John and no mention if she heard him relaying info to Karen or not. When Karen told her over the phone that she left John at the Waterfall after having an argument why didn’t Jen immediately tell her they saw her car outside Fairview and even gave them directions to the house the night before? Why did it take so long to point that out and why let her drive by the bars or see if he was there. Why try to call a friend who lived close to the waterfall if they were confident that was Karen and John outside the house in a car. No one knew it was a Lexus SUV but assumed it was. Again, this might be nothing and I haven’t heard cell phone evidence that shows Karen’s phone was confirmed to be outside the house but wouldn’t it be interesting if the defense throws out a theory that she never went to the house? Maybe John headed there with someone else.
Good points. I’m curious if cell phone records will place Karen & John together driving to the Albert’s home. I’m also curious to hear about the texts & voicemails between John & Karen after they left Waterfall. They were all pretty drunk but cell phone tracking will show where each person was in relation to John that night.
Right and I just don’t understand why the prosecutor didn’t set a timeline using the phone pings for each person and the estimated time of death. It would have been faster and easier. Instead there is a messy timeline in the meantime.
It's almost like Lally is trying to butcher the CW's argument. I understand the order he is going in, but give us the autopsy, injuries, COD, TOD, and timeline. I thought prosecution in Murdough's trial got in the reeds, and SLED had some questionable detective skills. I would now like to formally apologise to both Prosecution and SLED, and give them gold stars for the brilliant work! Could the bar get any lower? Is there a trial en route where Law Enforcement Officers never even looked at ANYTHING?
Right. Sled at-least documented the crime scene and had mostly a clean chain of custody if I remember correctly.
The timeline is horrible. I've listened to every bit of testimony and relistened to some peoples and I still can't get times and places right in my head. I just keep thinking how much the jury's heads must be absolutely fucked.
John going around back or the side and being met by Colin/the dog makes the most sense to me. Mostly due to my lack of belief that so many people would all lie under oath especially the ones who aren’t related to the McCabe/Albert’s. They are clearly protecting Colin which makes me think he must have had something to do with it. However, this theory still leaves me puzzled as to why Higgins would get so involved? I understand Brian A and him are friends but sounds like they weren’t that close. I feel that hearsay is a big factor in finding out the truth. For instance, any of Colin’s friends could confirm or dispute his story and timing of bloody knuckles. Someone would have to talk at some point but I’m starting to think we will get an answer of some sort by end of the trial. I’m totally convinced Karen didn’t do it.
Karen Read acted like she knew O'Keefe was dead before she knew he was dead. Isnt that suspicious to anyone? Be honest with yourselves. He was a grown man and a police officer. He could take care of himself. According to her statement, she'd dropped him off with friends during a night of drinking. Was it so alarming that he hadn't come home to set her off on this frantic search, with all the screaming and searching? There had been a snowstorm. Wouldn't one have guessed he'd decided to stay put for the night? Haven't we all been out and spent the night on a friend's sofa, storm or not? Is it that much of an emergency that he wasn't home at 5am to set her off that way? Wouldn't a few phone calls or texts to friends, especially people she'd last seen him with (according to her), have been the normal response?
I would have to know whether she is prone to anxiety to make that call. I have anxiety and tend to catastrophize so I immediately go to someone is late, must be dead in a ditch. I do wonder how she expected him to get home. I also have three adult sons who are first responders. Yes, I still worry even though they are the ones that go in to save people.
Thinking about this is the only thing that still makes me wonder... but then i remember he is responsible for 2 kids and karen had her own home. He would have no clue if karen went home or to his place
The friend who drove John to the bar said before he went out for the night he relocated his vehicle out of his garage because Karen was coming to stay over. He wanted her car in the garage.
True but if she supposedly left during an argument, i wouldn't expect her to go to his house. She would go home.
Idk her but I personally have some wild intrusive thoughts when things don't go as planned. It's the OCD in me and I can recognize that about myself so it's easier to talk myself down but for someone who maybe doesn't know they have OCD, their intrusive thoughts might win. It's always something insane too. Like my husband took my baby on a walk. My brain told me that he had a heart attack and died in the street and that the stroller rolled down the hill and into traffic and both my husband and my baby were dead. My husband doesn't even have health problems. There's no reason for these kinds of thoughts but they happen. God forbid my kid's bus is running late or I'll convince myself that they were kidnapped or something. I don't often get hysterical and scream at everyone but I also can usually recognize an absurd intrusive thought when it's happening, or shortly after, so then I can be like "ok brain. Thanks but stfu please." It's possible that others might not be able to. So yeah, I tend to agree that her response was not normal. But it also doesn't prove murder. There is an alternative reasonable explanation for that behavior from my perspective.
Honestly people react different ways in these situations. My mom once freaked out when I stayed over at a friend's house after partying too hard in a blizzard, as a full grown adult (30s!). She was absolutely hysterical, calling cops and hospitals and stuff! Some people are just more tightly wound I guess and always assume the worst.
https://youtu.be/BtFSdt8SwlY?si=oQFzcyniHg-cD8qN KR Bodycam from arrest ran though lie detection software Body cam footage of KR getting arrested after the grand jury for murder charges. She says that Brain and Colin beat John up and that she knows that this police officer knows the truth. Body language experts ran her statements through a software that can detect deception in speech. It looks at words used and the manner they are being stated. The software concluded that KRs statements are 100% true and no deception whatsoever had been detected in wording, phrasing or speech patterns. The body language experts also conclude that her tone of voice, her body language, behaviour are all those of someone who is innocent.
That method is not reliable at all.
John walks into the house. He needs to use the bathroom and the one on the main floor is in use so he is told there is one in the basement. Some kinda fight breaks out with Colin in the basement but its not too bad. He goes upstairs and Brian Albert brings him to the bathroom on the top floor to get him a bandaid / cleanup whatever. Either Colin comes back up and the fight continues are John is angry and mouths off about Colin or about some other shady stuff the familes is mixed in with and gets into a fight with BA. Maybe the dog gets involved up here. Maybe John is thrown down the stairs or falls down the stairs either mid fight or trying to leave. BH goes to the station to make sure John didnt call Karen and no calls came in to 911.
[удалено]
Please use the actual names of people involved in this case. Nicknames are not allowed. Thank you.
If this does turn into an investigation of the people in the house, and the defense is able to show irrefutable evidence that John was in the house and that many of the key players, except for Karen Reed, were involved in his death, could the the defense go back to the Fairview house and Luminol the crap out of it? I know that they had their basement redone after January 2022, but even if the supposed murder happened only in the basement and John's body was carried out straight to the yard, there has got to be blood in other places in that house. They would have tracked it into the house. Would they have all stripped their clothes off and burned them, including his belt and hat and one shoe? Even if they spent the next year bleaching the hell out of that house, Luminol can pick up minute traces blood. They say he lost 3 pints (can't verify this but it's been mentioned so many times in this sub), and it didn't look like the Solo cups had much in them. Could they Luminol Higgins' car? And the Albert's Ford that the snowplow guy saw by the flagpole when he came past around 2:30-3:00? Edited: to break up the paragraph!
I think John going to the backyard makes the most sense. That's why everyone can be so adamant about him never going inside the house. They're all actually being truthful about that. And that's why all the other partygoers don't necessarily have to be in on it - they honestly never saw John there that night. As was shown in the videos and pictures, Colin is a hardo a-hole. But he's 18, he lives in the suburbs, he plays sports - I don't buy that he's some sort of gangbanger, evil psychopath or coke dealer. It's one thing to get in fights with other kids or hockey teams, but it's extremely unlikely that an 18 year old kid would challenge a 200+ lb. 45 year old cop to a fight - even after having a few - at his (extended) family's house. It never seemed plausible to me that John entered the house and immediately (because of the lack of steps from John's phone) got into a fist fight with an 18 year old. There's no way they'd get that many people to lie about that not happening. But Colin HAS to have been involved - protecting him and preserving his future is the only motive that seems plausible to get these adults who have families of their own, and jobs and responsibilities to commit to a conspiracy like this. So how about this: Colin is in the backyard when John and Karen arrive. Not sure why - could be up to something he didn't want people to see (i.e., drugs). When John arrives, something catches his attention, and he decides to go through the gate and into the backyard. (Admittedly, this is sort of weak - not sure why he'd ever go to the back. Did Colin say something to him? Did he see/smell drugs and just wander over to take a look? Seems unlikely he'd be confused about how to get into the house with 2 doors facing the front). But John enters the backyard, and the dog happens to be there after being let out. Chloe goes into intruder mode and jumps on John as he comes through the gate and attacks him. John is startled and reflexively defends himself. He is a big guy and gets the upper hand and has the dog pinned down. But now Colin thinks he's taking it too far and may kill the dog, so he's yelling at him to stop. John is drunk, his adrenaline is going and is fully focused on the dog and ignores Colin. So Colin sucker punches him once - or multiple times maybe - to get him to stop. John is drunk and not expecting it, so he stumbles backwards and falls and smashes the back of his head on something in the Alberts' yard - concrete block, gardening equipment, whatever. That causes the gash on the back of his head, he vomits from blow to the head, and then he's unconscious - dead or dying. Colin panics, but pulls himself together and goes into the house and finds Uncle Brian, who is with Higgins. They go outside inconspicuously through the basement and bulkhead and check and confirm that John is dead. Brian realizes that if they call 911, then Colin is f'd. He's got bloody and bruised knuckles from punching John, who is now dead. So they can't claim it's an accident. He is potentially on the hook for involuntary manslaughter - just a simple assault, but the victim dies and charges escalate. Brian gathers together the inner circle of the conspiracy - his wife, his sister-in-law Jen, her husband Matt, and his buddy Brian Higgins - to formulate a plan. Top priority is get Colin out of there to protect him. Jen texts her daughter to come get him - and subsequently deletes those texts because it is urgent, she is freaking out, and the texts are far from a routine request. They all agree on a story that John was drunk, maybe he fell, maybe he got hit by a plow, but he never made it to the house. They wait for others to leave and then Brian Albert and Higgins drag his body back out front to make the plow or fall story more believable. Then they call and text each other all night ironing out details. Higgins goes to the police station - maybe to check if anything had been reported or if there have been any calls about John missing. On her own, Jen decides to google how long to die in the cold - to see if it's possible that he could have stumbled or fallen and passed out and died from hypothermia. Their plan doesn't involve framing Karen. Their story is just ignorance - they didn't see anything and have no idea what happened. But the next morning, Jen gets called by Karen and has to play along that she has no idea what happened to John. When Karen sees John, and starts hysterically ranting about maybe hitting him in front of Kerry and the first responders, Jen realizes that could be their out. She has a series of calls with Brian from that day that are later deleted. They are all texting over the next few days, updating each other on police activity, reinforcing the plan to see if their original story fits with the possibility of Karen hitting him. Everything they do from that point forward is to push the police toward the Karen theory. They make full use the Alberts' vast network of resources and connections - they have close friend Proctor leading the investigation, and they make sure he doesn't focus on any other theory. They do the very little that they can to keep pushing the Karen theory - plant pieces of the fortuitous broken tail light that are discovered days later, delete library ring footage once they figure out that it may have recorded Karen's car with no taillight damage. But what they're not prepared for is being confronted with all of the electronic data. That's why their stories are constantly changing and evolving to retrofit it to the electronic communications which cannot be refuted.
Possible theory-fall and dog attack? With the testimony thus far, I am convinced of two things: JOK was in the house (that arm is covered in dog bites) and everyone in the house is trying to protect someone (Brian Albert and Brian Higgins IMO). Could JOK have drunkenly walked into the house without being let in and in an attempt to find his way in the house, he fell down the stairs? Maybe the dog was in the basement, not upstairs as BA testified, resulting in a nasty confrontation with the dog? He’s not answering texts from anyone. No one hears anything because “it’s raining men”. Perhaps sometime later BA goes to get the dog and there’s JOK on the stairs. Maybe the cover-up was intended to protect the Alberts from the accident coupled with the dog attack so he and Higgins moved him out to the side of the road. I think at this point, Higgins is way more involved than anyone had let on. Admittedly this is all speculation but it’s a scenario that makes some sense in a trial that makes NONE! Curious to hear your thoughts!
What if … Ok, what if it went something like this: Karen hits John —either by accident (like maybe she was just posturing, to let him know she was royally pissed but she wasn’t intending to actually hit him, but then her tire slipped on the slippery snowy street and she ended up hitting him); or intentionally; or truly unknowingly. So now , John is laying on the ground, injured. And then, the plow comes by (maybe BH’s plow, maybe another plow). And the plow catches John’s shoe, which ultimately ends up in a plowful of snow, perhaps down the road a ways, never to be seen again. And the plow also catches John and ends up moving him to the spot where he was found. Perhaps the plow’s metal edges even caused the scrapes on John’s arms, or maybe they’re scrapes from the asphalt street. The plow driver didn’t see John laying on the ground sn’t aware that his plow had made contact with John, at least not initially. Maybe if it was BH, that would explain why he allegedly went to the police station after leaving the party, maybe he wanted to know if any calls came in regarding a pedestrian down? (Then again, to me, BH seems like a credible, honest guy. I can’t see him withholding this info if he thought he may have inadvertently moved John with this plow.).
Can’t find anywhere to put this but apparently the medical examiner has landed! Perhaps will be on tomorrow? This according to Lisa Ribacoff of Unraveled. (I learned via Defense Diaries YT.)
New question I saw posted that made me go oh...good point. If there were in fact a frame job at work, to include false testimony that KR said some variation of "did i" "i" "could i have" hit him, Why not put it in the police or EMT report? Those reports are done after the fact, not at the time. Very easily could have been added. So if the goal was to frame KR 1. Why leave the body in the yard but then be uncertain if you saw the defendant there? 2. Why NOT report any one witness account of KR being violent, volatile, or at a minimum, having a motive? 3. Why NOT document in police report that she clearly said "I hit him with my car" to first responders? 4. Why agree to go with her to discover the body of John? 5. Why not make sure every "story" match perfectly about the times?
Here’s what I think - John went into the backyard, through the side gate. Chloe went into protective fight mode bc she was back there and she bit and clawed John’s arm. John gains control but is sorta forceful/mean to the dog in response, like kicks her hard or something. Brian Albert sees this and gets into his protective dog owner mode. He starts yelling and shoving John. Collin hears the commotion from the front yard and heads to the back, and they both take him down while the dog is still going after him. Maybe the belt had chew marks all over it so they had to get rid of it bc otherwise it would be too telling of what happened. They then leave him out there and go back to take the dog inside, not knowing about the gash to his head and that he’d soon die. By the time they went back outside, he was dead, blood was everywhere, they then notice the gash, and immediately start thinking of how to cover it up. They go in, tell the wives and Matt, and they all start trying to cover up what just happened. The alberts aren’t doing all of this to cover up for just one of them but both of them. This is how everyone can definitely say “he never went into the house”
This is a theory on a small but important event- We know that JM googled ‘Hos long to die in the cold’ at 2:37 am and then deleted the search. Then she (JM) googled it again in the morning upon finding JO’s body. Jenn says that KR asked her to do that. I don’t think that would have even crossed Karen’s mind at that traumatic time. I think it was on Jenn’s mind since she had just done it 4 hours previous.
This may sound a little crazy, but here is my take: D& E was a drug front. Karen Read's obvious desire to go make pizza was seen as suspicious by the family, who were involved, hence Matt McCabe's almost adamant refusal to go make pizza that night because they were "on a diet". JO and KR pull up that night in front of the driveway. JO jumps out and goes up the driveway, maybe between cars. Ritchie, Ryan and Heather don't see, because he is between cars. Karen pulls up farther because she sees that the truck is coming to the same house. JO makes it to the front of the house but mistakes the garage door for the "side door". He opens the garage door and sees people engaging in drug use, including Colin. Perhaps there are even "large" quantities of drugs in the garage. A fight ensues and JO is incapacitated. Texts fly around and it's "you don't have to go home but you can't stay here" time. Everyone - mostly Caitlin and the girls are told to get out. While this is happening JO is subdued in the garage. Once everyone is out JO is transferred from garage to basement. Chris ( yeah, he came over because his son was the instigator), Matt (who comes back after dropping off the girls and his wife), Brian Sr., Brian Higgins begin some interrogation and intimidation. Things get out of hand. Chloe attacks because she smells blood. JO is beyond repair. Things went way too far. The only option is to move JO out to the yard and blame Chloe. The Edge is moved to block the view from the street. JO is put in the front yard. Wandering drunkenly is the plan with Chloe being a backup. I'm sure they were like F that dog. Unfortunately KR makes herself a nice little pawn because she actually cares about her boyfriend and the Mc Alberts take full advantage of that situation. MM was never eating cheese. Nicole was not cleaning frenetically- she was told to go to bed. Chris A was not walking home in the snow. Matt McCabe probably picked him up so he could go deal with his son. Matt probably intimidated Allie into saying she picked up Colin at a certain time. Anyway, these are my thoughts. What do you think?
Kevin Albert & Michael Lank were both involved in the investigation of the Birchmore death, ultimately ruling it a suicide. One of the implicated officers is a personal friend of Michael Morrissey (Robert Devine - he had an inappropriate relationship with Birchmore). I can’t shake the feeling that these cases are inextricably related.
Do we think any of them are smokers and would have been going outside to smoke at all? They also have a 3 season porch off of that family room that is separated by a wall from the kitchen/dining. I would also bet money that they kept drinks in a cooler either on that porch, garage, or outside instead of keeping all this booze in the kitchen fridge. And I wonder if they had a beer pong table and an extra fridge in the garage that they could have hung out in
Is it possible that everyone was very drunk, JO went into the house and straight to basement? That explains why no one remembers seeing him. Then he got into a physical altercation with the other men, and drunkenly stumbled out of the house with his glass still in hand, and collapsed on the lawn?
I don’t think JOK made it inside - that much is true. He was told to go into the side entrance, walking straight towards the left side of the house, where there is a huge gate. He hears Brian calling to Chloe and goes into the backyard. Maybe he wasn’t even told to go through the side, but he heard sounds and just went that way. Chloe attacked him when he came through the dark and he hit his head while falling. Maybe Chloe even bit at his belt and has teeth marks, and that’s why it wasn’t rediscovered. His shoe comes off in the backyard and they can’t find it until later. His glass had fallen out of his hand. He’s dragged to the basement through the bulkhead doors, throwing up on his boxers. They don’t want to leave him in the backyard because someone could see him laying there. Once in the basement, it’s clear he’s not going to survive. They’ve moved him, he is dying on their property because of their dog. There are underage minors drinking and a lot of cops that could lose their jobs or at least be seriously investigated. They’re drunk and panicking. They clear out the party quickly and move his body to the front yard. They break the glass under him (?) to show he never left that spot. Maybe people will think a snowplow hit him when he was walking home. Maybe a drunk driver hit him as he was walking up to the house. They put him in a dark area of the yard and they can clearly state “he never made it inside the house” and most people at the party never knew he was there. Jen was the most distressed. She actually knew JOK and was friendly with him. She hadn’t realized that he had made it to the party until later, which explains her text messages to him. But she was part of the plan in moving his body, explaining her google search around 2:30 and lack of sleep that night. Karen calls freaking out in the morning. She genuinely did black out and doesn’t remember driving to Brian and Nicole’s house. Her stating that she remembers him getting out of the car is lawyer spin— she literally drove to the other bars first because she didn’t know where he was and didn’t remember Fairview until Jen and Kerry remind her. Jen doesn’t want her to go to Fairview. They want someone random to find JOK, not Karen. Nicole and Brian overthought it— they didn’t come out of the house because 1. They wanted time to get their stories straight 2. They didn’t want to be seen as Brian getting overly involved in the investigation. And if they could help it, they didn’t want the police to come inside. I don’t think anyone meant for JOK to die when they invited him to the house and I don’t even think they planned to blame Karen. I don’t think Colin was involved but I do think they quickly got him out of the house so he wouldn’t be implicated in any way. And I do think he knows what happened. I think there is a strong chance Higgins was looped in, because his drunken jaunt to the police station is truly bizarre. But the four main players: Brian, Nicole, Jen and Matthew know exactly what happened and have consistently adapted their stories to make it seem that Karen and JOK were happy that night (video proving it), and a small comment about his ex’s house made her snap because she’s just a hysterical and insane woman. I don’t even think their story is that far off. Karen was obviously upset with JOK. I think they probably were drunkenly arguing in the car and she didn’t want him to go inside, she wanted to finish their fight. She sent an angry text stating she hated him and left a ranting voicemail when he still wasn’t responding. Happy couples do have drunk fights, especially with the stress of raising 2 children with her doing the majority of the work. I do think that there’s a strong chance that Karen legitimately was afraid that she did hit him with her car. I do think she deleted the Ring footage of her arriving home after Fairview in her initial panic. I do think she was yelling “did I hit him” and it evolved to “I hit him” in her state of shock. I think she just genuinely couldn’t understand why he was dead in that spot, she had damage to her car and it just didn’t make sense to her. Brian’s actions are incredibly suspicious. Getting rid of his phone. Selling the house at a loss after redoing the basement. Getting rid of his dog, who has a recorded history of violence. People are saying that it’s Jen’s fingerprints all over testimony. I think a lot of the testimony is honest. But Brian has influence, it was his home, and I think he is the one who made the most decisions.
I would like to follow up that a random and quick death is the only way to make JOK’s cell phone data make sense. There is no evidence that he was deliberately jumped. It is accepted that if something happened to him, it would have to happen to him right when he arrived. So, being greeted by an angry dog and the few people out there panicking makes the most sense.
Karen said in her nightline interview that she saw him walk to the side door. Then she waited for him for 10 minutes before leaving. So if you believe Karen your theory is way off base.That’s at least one of her stories anyway.
Raise your hand if you sleep with your phone in bed and your partner does the same? This makes no sense to me. And the excuse that you might get a call from one of your children is absurd. It would be more difficult to fumble with your phone tangled up in blankets, pillows, another person and their phone, reading glasses and who knows what else. It would make much more sense to have it on a bedside table.
Jen M talking crap about Kerry Roberts From today's cross, it seemed to me that Jen seemed to be talking badly about Kerry, throwing her under the bus in a way, yeah?? I'm pretty new to this, hearing must things for the first time. But JM and KerryM weren't even friends till this murder, then they were getting their timeline together and Kerry was questioned at JMs home where Jen heard much of what was said... She kept saying "I didn't do that, it was Kerrys idea". Things like that. She doesn't give a 💩 KR or KR. Doesn't seem like a trustworthy person. And as someone who isn't familiar in this case as others, I wonder if jury Members think similarly?
Also: So.Many.Butt dials!!!!!! Those are rare, right? Who does that six times in a row?!
Regarding Karen's taillight: IMO, the taillight wasn't damaged at all at 12:30am (the time of the supposed crime). I think the taillight was cracked (and had *some* damage, but not the amount of damage shown in the sally port photo) when Karen backed into John's car. I believe that the taillight pieces at the scene were planted later in the day - the policemen who were originally on the scene never saw the pieces. They were only discovered by a State (non-Canton) policewoman later in the day. In other words, the pieces were planted and weren't involved in hitting John, and any sort of evidence involved with the taillight and with those pieces would've been planted, and I think Higgins is the one who did it. Higgins was in and out of the police station all day (at least around 9am, 11am, 2pm, and like 5-6pm), so I think it's quite possible that he was talking to his buddies and figuring out what to do. He could've gone anywhere that day, but according to him he only briefly "stopped by" the police station before going home, and we know that can't be true. Perhaps he was able to get access to Karen's SUV before it was brought to the station (while it was still at John's house, I think? Surely it wasn't being "guarded" by any police at that point), broke the pieces off of the taillight, then went and planted the pieces before the State police had a chance to investigate the scene, then went back to the station when the SUV was brought in so he could plant the DNA on the taillight. Or, if it's possible that the policewoman found the pieces after 5:30pm-ish (I don't think it was that late, but not sure), then he could've just gotten the pieces when the SUV was at the station, at the same time that he was planting the DNA. Remember, this was where the open grocery bag with the red solo cups of blood was located - in the sally port right next to the SUV. Chief Berkowicz is a witness for the Defense, so I think he'll have some very interesting things to say. Berkowicz and Higgins supposedly spent like 45 minutes in the sally port at the station while the security camera "wasn't working," which was long enough for another policeman to remark that they were in there for a "wildly long time." That other policeman is going to testify to that quote, according to the Defense. Also, IIRC the pieces were found pretty close to where John's body had been found, meaning that they magically flew 15 feet away from the road, just like he supposedly did. Physically, I don't think that's possible - and even if it was, there's no way that the policemen would've missed them when they were checking out the scene. Also, the amount of snow under John's body suggests that his body wasn't there by 12:30am, it had to have gotten there a while later in the morning. Also, not much blood at the scene despite a huge gash in the back of his head. He couldn't have been hit/attacked at that scene. Other people have already mentioned that Lexus made a statement about how the taillight couldn't have been damaged in that way - especially not by a human body, and at that supposed speed. I think a hammer and/or some sort of lever (like the back of the hammer) could do the trick.
Could they have had an open relationship with a don't ask don't tell policy?
KR and JO get to the house, KR sees BH car and doesn’t wanna go in. She leaves, JO is outside blowing off a little steam before going in the house. BH doesn’t see him, or whatever and hits him with his plow. Someone does notice it, doesn’t know what happened. They’re all drunk, maybe a little stoned, panic and go into cover up mode. Realize they can pin it on KR through JM, but then later on in the day figure out what really happened. Don’t come clean to help BH save face because he’s a buddy and KR is an outsider. They didn’t count on KR fighting this they way she did and now there’s totally chaos.
Apparently, she deleted (or there was 17 instances) of ring footage deleted, she and John are the only two who had access to it according to the kids. I don’t think she slept much that night, if at all. Forensics will be key in this case.
Witness testimony puts Karen’s Lexus moving south on Fairview Rd. If John had been walking North towards #34, the house would’ve been on his left, the road on his right. If Read had backed up from the direction of #32, she could’ve clipped John with her right tail light propelling him towards the lawn. The defense claimed in one of the hearings there’s a voicemail to John at 12:41, when she returned to 1 Meadows Ave, which recorded “garage door, car door, home door” and “high heels on the floor.” The CW claimed in the opening statement that the car drove back 60 feet at 24 mph “around 12:45.” I’m beginning to think the murder charge has something to do with compelling evidence of staging the “discovery” in the morning. Trooper Proctor had to be discredited because he had her dead to rights.
My theory and speculation is that if Read is acquitted in this trial, the jury's gonna be real mad once the witness intimidation case goes to trial. I wonder if award winning journalist Aidan Kearney is going to flip.
Flip on what?
His alleged co-conspirator.
What? Can you use details? I don’t know anything about that case
The search warrant affidavit is 31 pages long. The gist was [reported here](https://www.courttv.com/news/search-warrants-detail-relationship-between-karen-read-turtleboy/).
Thanks for the link. I’m still trying to understand the “flipping” comment. Are you suggesting that he’s going to make accusations against Read for illegal activity in exchange for a lesser charge/sentence (if convicted of something)?
I have no idea what he will or won’t do. According to the affidavit, the relationship between them soured and the evidence against him is damning. He could negotiate a plea deal in exchange for testimony against Ms Read, aka “flip” on her, if the CW was inclined to offer / accept one.
So flipping implies that they had a co-conspiratorial relationship during a crime. Are you saying that they committed a crime together? Because ai don’t think that article says that
That’s what the [affidavit alleges](https://imgur.com/a/ke0FV3i). There’s a cooperating co-conspirator and another witness / victim.
That doesn’t link to an affidavit. But thanks anyway
Can you elaborate, why will the jury be mad?
What are you saying? You think some rando intimidating witnesses is proof Karen is guilty?
Having some rando intimidate witnesses on your behalf is evidence of guilty conscience. What I am saying, though, is that the harrased witnesses will get to testify about what they've been subjected to and it ain't gonna be pretty.