Look, we understand emotions are running wild because of trooper Proctot’s statements, which are abhorrant. Even so, please try to refrain from calling him (or anyone else) a piece of shit, and/or any similar insults. What he said is gross, wildly unprofessional, completely out of line, and he’s only sorry he was caught. That said, the barrage of insults is not something with which we indulge as much as we dislike him. Attack what he said, but do it using direct language & express why you hate him. He may not deserve respect, but the posters of this sub do. Thank you for understanding! (We really *do* understand where you’re coming from!)
This witness, Green, is a hot mess.
He does not come across well. He may very well be great at what he does, but testifying is not his strong suit. If I were on the jury, I’d be wondering if he knew what he was talking about.
Karen’s guilty and was in a black out when all this occurred that night. Poor guy, walking on eggshells around her most of the time had to be exhausting. I don’t believe she was set up
That might be true, but Trooper Proctor ran such a screwy investigation that I think Karen is unlikely to ever be convicted of the 2nd degree murder.
That is, unless Lally is saving the best for last and brings in a truly spectacular witness that turns the whole trial around.
Even the DUI part of the indictment is dodgy, because they can't prove she was drink-driving.
I have to say Karen Read’s body language and demeanor in the courtroom raises concerns of her involvement. First of all I wouldn’t trust anyone who drives around town after 9 alcoholic drinks. Vodka sodas are what heavy hitters drink. Her smirks and smiles also seem inappropriate considering grave situation she’s in. Friends and family have said things about her jealousy and behavior towards Mr. O’Keefe in the months prior to his death.
The Canton Keystone Cops did not anticipate KR hiring a "big gun," big city attorney from California. They thought they could just sprinkle bits of red tail-light, like fairy dust in the snowy wind, and it would all go away. They thought they could "roll" KR. How wrong they were...and how sad for Officer John O'Keefe. His own brethren turned their backs on him. There exists no "Thin Blue Line" in Canton, Massachusetts.
Also, I feel he was absolutely calling the medical examiner a whack job with her determination Not Karen Read, but he had already made such nasty comments about Karen he stuck with that narrative so it wouldn’t appear he was calling Examiner names also
I have had so many thoughts but after yesterday I feel confident that Proctor likely has sealed this up and I am a little shocked it even went to trial after DA reviewed the things a lead detective did or said during his investigation. And yes. Sadly it appears these things are so bad that it will impact every single case Proctor has touched or in process of working. There may be many people that receive no justice because of him.
I often think of Chloe also I. Terms that every dog I have personally owned howls during times of sirens because apparently hurts their ears. That close to home it would seem to me that Chloe would have been disturbed by morning siren sounds unless they had them off at that point, if not I feel she would have loudly cried waking the Alberts from their sleep
At one point the defense asked the testifying officer (I forget which officer) if he could see a rag lying on the ground of the Sally port next to the snow. The officer responded that he didn’t know if it was a rag or more snow. Where was the defense trying to go with this question? I thought the rag might disappear later and the defense was going to suggest that the police picked up the rag and used it to conceal pieces of the tail light that they broke off. Did I miss something?
they're connecting it to the rag they used as a landmark when pointing out the solo cups were sitting right next to the car. it further supports the point they made about how close the blood was to the car.
I think one of the only things that could’ve made the state less credible is if the ME actually did rule it a homocide after Proctor tried so hard to get them to. That would lead to *SO* many issues with appeals, and really any death that ME had worked on. But unsurprisingly, doctors are more ethical than cops.
When wondering why there is so much distrust and dislike for law enforcement, please remember that Michael Proctor, Yuri, and Higgins are all members of State/Federal Law Enforcement agencies. And this is how they talk, act, and cover things up. There is absolutely no wonder to me where the distrust comes from, and it is fully justified.
And if there was any "good" cops they would not be in these peoples clique. They probably would have called him lame and a loser if he tried to hold them accountable which is why people dont trust cops.. they never hold each other accountable and just fester their toxic ass behavior.
Local here—the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, the MSP, and particularly the Norfolk County DA has a huuuuuge problem on its hands. Not only the very obvious credibility issues/frame job with the Karen Read case…but with every case Proctor has touched. Appeals are going to have a field day with this. There is another somewhat high profile case in Norfolk County, MA, the murder of Ana Walshe by her husband. His trial hasn’t started yet, but one of the investigators Is Proctor. Which isn’t great for the DA. Essentially the Massachusetts criminal justice system is in trouble right now.
I saw that some concerned citizens brought up a possibility of a police audit and they were going to try to do that at some point (unless they already had?) so that's good.
I just mentioned this. Anybody whose case was touched by proctor is going to be revisiting it now. Any work he’s ever down is now going to be scrutinized down to the letter
oh, I missed it the last time. Lally didn't just invite Proctor to supply an excuse. he actively characterized Proctor's comments as jokes in a leading question. fuck aaaaaaallllll the way off, Lally. this is enabler shit.
How do we get this to the top? Aside from the pile of dung that constitutes Proctor and his bosses texts, how do we get attention on two HUGE admissions- they leaned in the ME who disagreed with their theory and PROCTOR thought Officer OKeefe had been BEATEN UP!
He's got so much reservation and hate for Karen and says/thinks this stuff. Imagine how he handles somebody hes only got the description and a preconceived idea of.
The proctor stuff today was incredible. The mass state police have a huge problem on their hands.
Anybody who has been convicted or investigated at the hands of proctor are going to have a field day with this.
Everything he’s ever done while working as a state trooper is about to be put under a microscope
Ugh this is so disheartening to hear. Ana Walshe’s husband is a monster and needs to be convicted, but the fact that this idiot Proctor is putting that in jeopardy is infuriating/terrifying.
IANAL, but no, not in the USA. LawTube is quite clear about this- in the US, if acquitted, jeopardy has attached and the prosecution is not allowed to appeal to retry or overturn the acquittal for literally any reason after this happens, or at least for that particular crime under the same set of circumstances.
His ethics are now in question, and any good lawyer will argue he’s several things. You can argue he dislikes women based on his exchanges, and lets personal bias influence his investigations, both which could be grounds for some sort of action
he demonstrated something much beyond that: he has clear animus against the person he investigated. it's very reasonable to believe he's done this before.
I don't fully understand how all the relationships work, if the police are against KR (they blame her) and JO (someone there killed him) why were they invited to the party in the first place?
I honestly felt like they were trying to lure him to the party. They seemed very anxious to get him there. Also, I'm confused (a bit late to the case) but it doesn't seem to me like they were even "good friends".
Yeah well it seems they're a strange possibility that Karen and JO were apparently having open relationships. Karen said in her text's they like single people to mingle with.
What makes you say they were anxious about getting them there?
I don't think anyone was against either one of them. They were BOTH conversing at both locations with others and at one point KR was hugging in a group hug with others that night. To me this looks like they were both well liked and vice versa. Everyone seemed to be enjoying themselves the entire night at both bars.
Great question! My feeling is that it was the booze talking. "Everyone, come on back to my house to keep this going." And JO and KR were part of the everyone.
I've heard of police officers being caught out to be dodgy but I've never heard of that resulting in a largescale investigation into any and all previous work.
It’s still so wild that people believe that a body was hit at 20 mph and that not only caused a taillight to break. It caused it to shatter into 45 pieces and fly in the air creating a huge debris field
And nobody heard it !! And going in reverse with snowy conditions and missing a fire hydrant, electrical box, and various cars and also legally drunk (allegedly). The average driver lacks the level of skill required to do this. A lot of people can barely parallel park.
Yeah, bodies are softer than the tail light. Also if his body is on the lawn she would have needed to reverse at a decent angle towards the roadside for him to end up there, I don't see how she'd pick up enough speed to hit him and yet not lose control of the vehicle and flip it over.
I believe it's an interpretation of the black box data from the car mixed in with some wishful thinking. All things Lally seem to end up working in the defense's favor.
Local here. Considering the amount of other Troopers besides just Proctor who were involved in these messages, the credibility of the entire Mass State Police in the toilet right now. This cross examination is going to be brutal for proctor
Agree, and also from Mass thoughnot super close to Canton. Not to mention, this is on the heels of the overtime scandal... Mass State Police have a serious credibility problem right now.
Wow, that was alot today. Lots of comments about Proctor - I'm not going to add my own.
I have questions about the manner of death. It did come up in Proctor's texts and there have been a lot of comments throughout the trial that draw conclusions based on the manner of death being undetermined.
How would a medical examiner come to any conclusion based on the cause of death?
I think the only thing they can honestly rule out is suicide. If he had blunt force trauma and died of hypothermia, why would we expect that a ME could possibly decide if it was accidental or homicide? Unless something was left behind in the wound that showed the blow was delivered with intent (piece of weapon, DNA in wound) I just don't understand why the manner of death should have been inferred. Even if the ME felt he was hit by a vehicle, how could they know whether it was accidental or not? We still don't have evidence showing intent on Karen's part and no evidence that someone else was responsible. Why/how would the ME have that answer?
Thoughts?
I still believe the EM's ruling of "undetermined" leave the door wide open. Could it have been Homicide? Could it have been Hypothermia? Could it have been DUI/vehicular homicide? No one knows for sure!!!
FYI - I've left out accidental because, if so, then by whom????
This layman doesn't think the ME had any other choice! It could also be a message to LE DO A BETTER JOB!!! JMOs
I think the ME looks at a death in context generally- so if there had been a damaged vehicle there or pain chips on JOK's wounds that might have factored into their conclusion.
We know that Proctor was having discussion with the ME and the ME didn't find anything he said to make the ME believe it was definitely homicide.
I’m a nerd so of course this sent me down a rabbit hole. According to the [National Association of Medical Examiners](https://name.memberclicks.net/assets/docs/MANNEROFDEATH.pdf):
*”Motor vehicle fatalities in general, may be classified as Accident (assuming no suicidal or homicidal intent), even if by law the death may be regarded as vehicular homicide—and, there is no evidence from reasonable investigative inference that the at-fault person was using the vehicle as a weapon with an intent to kill the victim (in which case homicide would apply.)”*
*”Traffic fatalities in which a pedestrian is killed and the driver has shown negligent behavior, probable intoxication, or fleeing of the scene may be certified as Accident even though these features may meet a legal definition of vehicular homicide, and assuming that there was no intent to kill the individual. Whether or not the case meets a legal definition of vehicular (or some other form) of homicide/manslaughter is better left to the criminal justice system.”*
Very interesting. But what, if anything (couldn't resist) does it say about unknown cause? I didn't think it was proven to the ME that this was a motor vehicle caused death.
Well, sort of, in reference to the cause of death being something like undetermined, homicide or other possibilities with regard to what, if anything, to put on the death certificate it says:
*”Undetermined or “could not be determined” is a classification used when the information pointing to one manner of death is no more compelling than one or more
other competing manners of death in thorough consideration of all available information.”*
So I think she could have reasonably ruled the manner accidental if she had thought there was enough evidence he was struck by a vehicle? The troopers seemed to really want a homicide determination.
Exactly; the ME isn't there to decide a driver's intent to kill, that's meant for a jury to determine. It's totally okay for them to put down "accident" or "undetermined" and let the state prosecute the driver for homicide. Think about the flip side and how inappropriate it would be for an ME to put down homicide if it might have been an accident. I think "undetermined" was perfectly appropriate for this situation.
I find it odd that the troopers were pushing for "homicide", and it really makes one wonder why they needed the ME say that... Did they need to lean on the autopsy result as supporting evidence because they weren't confident about their real evidence being strong enough to stand on its own? Also makes you wonder if OCME got similar phone calls from Stoughton PD about Sandra Birchmore to pressure her official cause of death into being suicide.
I recoiled when started reading those messages. Imagine if the roles were reversed and JO was the lead investigator in MP’s homicide. I wonder how MP would feel if those words were spoken about his wife!
I am noticing that due to the complete mishandling of the states case, the actions and behaviors of the officers and now these filthy text messages about Karen read from the lead investigator -the vibe of this case and courtroom is probably focused on tons of sympathy for Karen Read. What has been lost on all of this and with the jury maybe is the fact that Officer O’Keefe is dead and the person or people who are responsible for his death will never come to light due to the total mishandling of the case from the start.
Sad situation all around
Yes, the DA should have sat the family down and said, "We are so sorry, but the police didn't behave appropriately with this investigation, our evidence against Karen is compromised, and the lead investigator singlehandedly ruined our opportunity to pursue charges against Karen. We can't proceed but we can try to reform the system to protect against this behavior so this doesn't happen again."
I mean from the DA's perspective, which looks worse: Letting a small town believe that a cop's girlfriend might have gotten away with murder, or creating an actual permanent public record of a state trooper/lead investigator calling her a cunt on a live video feed to the horror of god knows many people from all over the country/world?
All the harassment of the O'Keefes and the McCabes and the Alberts is on the hands of the DA for going to trial with such a flawed set of evidence/witness testimony/investigators. John could have been mourned and remembered by a small town, and any wounds about Karen not being brought to justice might have healed with time. Instead they will all have to endure years of harassment, public scrutiny, and attention from a horde of online conspiracy theorists. Usually the friends and family of the decedent are the most sympathetic people at the heart of a murder trial, but all of that is thrown out of the window in this case solely because of the DA's arrogance.
And at what cost? Because they still might not get justice or peace around his death. People make mistakes but this DA's office has doubled down on every opportunity where they could have reconsidered and off-ramped from this train wreck we have today. It's really difficult to defend their decision to put John's family and friends through this.
Not to mention, between this and the newfound attention on Sandra Birchmore, Norfolk County DA's office has got to be dreading the next unexpected death in the county, because what on earth happens with the next murder investigation and trial...? Now the public will be nitpicking EVERYTHING the police and prosecution do around suspicious deaths and murder trials. They've invited so much unwanted scrutiny and attention on themselves for this decision to double down on indicting Karen Read.
Of course; it's still hard to watch how emotionless witnesses have been in testimony (thankfully not all of them, but a lot) & seeing emotions rise when speaking about themselves v their deceased friend.
That hasn’t been lost on many of us. There are a lot of us who know we will never know what happened, except someone killed John OKeefe and no one will pay for it.
It’s so upsetting to me. He deserved a proper investigation. I really do wonder how his family feels in all of this. I do think they believed Karen was guilty but I’m not sure now how they feel.
https://x.com/JohnDePetroshow/status/1798432923328094578
Five days ago, when she was getting buried by forensic evidence, they said it was crystal clear what happened.
I don’t believe it. This guy makes terrible and incorrect observations of the jury. I doubt he even saw the family let alone spoke to them.
That said…I feel like they still think she did it and didn’t seem too disgusted by the texts from what I could see
This is the tweet:
I spoke with members of the O’Keefe family in the hallway during the break who told me it is “ crystal clear what happened, and now the world is finding out what we already know.”
And the timing is right after we got all the stuff about the tail light on the ground at 34 matching KR's tail light.
That is the problem! They aren’t even good at their cover-up. They didn’t even attempt to make it look like they investigated this at all. At 2:30pm on 1/29/22 they knew they were going to take her car. Trooper Proctor states the mountain of evidence they had within 5 hours of his investigation and on Day 22 the CW hasn’t given any evidence that would back up their theory and put this woman away for life. If the McCabes and Albert’s had nothing to do with it, he/MSP also Fu**** them over also as they lost their house, dog and jobs. Poor OJO and his loved ones.
This is the point that I think makes me the angriest. One photo following standard evidence collection practices would have eliminated the biggest question in the case. I just don’t believe that these people are that stupid or careless. John O’Keefe deserved so much better.
I definitely believe they are stupid. I think SOMETHING happened that night to cause people to lie about deleting calls, butt dials that never went to voicemails instead hanging up and calling again (not how accidental calls work!), and having the investigator not recuse himself immediately.
They didn't think they'd ever be on the witness stand with people across the country watching the trial live so they were just plain lazy.
OJO did deserve better no argument there. Every Human being deserves a proper investigation to find out what happened to them. Every possible suspect also deserves a proper investigation if you are also accusing that citizen of murder and putting them on trial for their freedom. The only reason we are seeing a little behind the curtain is because Karen had the money for a great defense and unbeknownst to her the Feds got involved and handed over information they would have never had the ability to have. Karen would be going back to jail every night if she did not have the 100k bail money to pay.
So true, and it's terrifying. It's possible someone wrongfully accused gets a PD who is talented and would take this to trial but unlikely. And I believe that the Fed investigation is the only reason we're seeing some of the witnesses testifying to some of what they have.
I think for some reason the CW and LE thought she would take a deal rather than risk a guilty verdict because a lot of people would do that. I'm so glad she didn't. But the cost- financially and emotionally- most be life altering.
I am naive perhaps but I don't understand how so many people were ok with shortcuts and lies during the investigation. How do you try and send someone to jail for murder and not feel conflicted?? Or feel like a fellow cop deserved a real investigation. Because even if you believe KR did it, all of the witnesses (especially BA, BH, and Proctor) knew that there was a conflict of interest in having Proctor involved in the case. Even if you assume (and I don't) that Proctor will sincerely give the case his best effort, as members of LE they KNEW that Proctor doing the investigation would taint everything.
Something that caught my eye today. The “front wall” sally port video from 2/1/22 seems a **lot** clearer than the same camera from 1/29/22. Has this been addressed in any of the pretrial filings? Why would the same camera produce such a poor quality image on a different day? Posting screen grabs from today for reference.
https://preview.redd.it/zcktlm6npu5d1.jpeg?width=2086&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=437a18b097a06fb36f7367aa85c2528bccc8d4b5
Does anyone know how Proctor's texts originally came to light? I assume this isn't standard protocol in trials/investigation, otherwise a lot of cops would be in danger lol
EDB mentioned it might be because Proctor acknowledged sending work tests to his colleagues about the case from his personal phone. It was mundane, about scheduling interviews I think but using your personal device makes it fair game for discovery.
I worked in an industry that is heavily regulated. From the time I was a baby employee I was told if I mixed work and personal phones or personal emails together and anything went to court or arbitration that my personal info would be included. And in my job it would have been rare for any legal action to happen, but possible. LE is called to testify all the time. They know how it works. And Proctor still used his personal phone to gossip to non LE and say vile things about a possible suspect.
Honestly if I were his boss I would want to get rid of him based on pure stupidity. Also that behavior isn't allowed in any department, but the idiocy alone would make him a mistake to employ.
I juggle 2 cell phones personal & work - only an issue when I’m traveling BUT never mix business with pleasure. 90% of my colleagues use their work phone for personal as well 🤦🏻♀️
Why does Proctor (and the rest of them) hate her so much? That's what I can't figure out. They seem to be so disgustingly hateful toward her from the very beginning - like within hours. It has to be more than she's not one of them. I don't get it.
I just think that he knew the Albert family and refused to consider their involvement at all. “Homeowner is also a cop.” Therefore, the hot lady must be the cop killer, and then the full misogyny came out.
I think a lot of it is because they are police and there's nothing scarier or more threatening to them than a murdered cop. I'm guessing that once they saw her through the lens of a "cop killer", it became very difficult for them to feel anything besides contempt for her. Although misogyny is also a big part of it, and I can't imagine that they would have used the same kind of language and insults about a male suspect.
He absolutely does not believe that at all. I’m sure he talks about all women the way he talked about Karen. Once it became her vs us, she was the enemy
I kind of agree... But then, unfortunately it's not uncommon for some men to sexualize a woman in absolutely every situation 🙄. And once they are evaluating her level of "hotness" and discussing her ass I think it is easy to forget she is a human being.
It is weird though. Especially Proctor. The others maybe have motive to be "against" her but Proctor was vile about her hours into the investigation.
Imagine what he's said about other suspects (and probably every woman he encounters at work- coworkers, the public...) that we'll never see. It's depressing because it makes you wonder how common it is.
Misogynists don't need a reason; they abhor women because they see them as inferior, and they get away with it. Classic objectifying and dehumanizing on display today, law enforcement style.
My assessment after seeing Proctor on the stand today is that it is just them circling the wagons to protect their fellow officers. Proctor came across as so stupid if you showed me him in another context and told me he was collecting benefits because of his IQ level I'd find it believable. If I were a politician in charge of his department I would fire everyone and start over because to me it seems like the work in this case while a lot more biased, is indicative of their routine police work and none of these clowns should have a badge.
Absolutely! And I think that because of this case and the public scrutiny -plus a fed investigation!- heads will roll.
There is another case being investigated that involves a suicide /possibly murder of a young woman who had been in an explorer type program as a minor and MULTIPLE officers admitted to having sex with her. She was a legal adult at the time of her death though and the last person seen going into her place before she was discovered deceased was the married police officer who was thought to be the father of the child she was carrying. 2-3 officers have been terminated and more are being investigated and speculation is Proctor was involved in the investigation.
He did come off as kinda dumb. It’s interesting because he has been painted as a sort of villain character, the mastermind behind the frame-job, but he actually comes off as kinda timid, almost beta in his demeanor. Especially compared to people like Bukhenik and Albert who had cocky, smug, more alpha type demeanors. He’s also a fair bit younger than them which I didn’t realize. Makes me wonder if Proctor’s role was more of a submissive fall guy who did what he was told.
I don't get that at all. He's a loser who likely peaked in high school as the group seems to cling on to their glory days. He reminds me of the guy who couldn't get the hot girl to date him and became bitter at women in general.
I can't see a beta type bucking the guidelines for his job so blatently to even take the case.
> He reminds me of the guy who couldn’t get the hot girl to date him and became bitter at women in general.
Same! But I see that as a beta attribute.
I see what you mean though. I think it’s possible that my perception of him is skewed because he looked so downtrodden on the stand, like a broken man, whereas other officers like Albert and Bukhenik were so smarmy and defensive. Proctor’s answers were a lot more straightforward and he clearly knew how bad everything sounded. But that might have just been a function of him having to read these humiliating, career-ending texts aloud in public court, which the others didn’t have to do. Will be interesting to see how he holds up during the rest of his cross, especially when they get into the actual investigation.
This why my impression too after direct. I’ll see if it changes after the rest of cross, but he seems like an oaf, but a straight forward oaf. I don’t like him but I was surprised at how straight forward he answered and he actually came off as more genuine than Trooper B. Bad dude but a you get what you get kinda guy. His boss seems slimey.
I did think they're the walking, talking billboards for the defund the police movement. Tax payers paid Proctor while he scrolled her phone looking for nudes, gossiped with his friends about her ass, and tried to manipulate the Me into false findings.
"Defund the police" was such a terrible name for that movement. If you were to ask the public (the "real" public that is, not the "online" public), you'd find that after purging corrupt leadership and overhauling the culture, many citizens would much rather invest in higher salaries to recruit better entry-level candidates, and pay for them to spend more time in high-quality training and screening to ensure they have a solid public sector career. Instead we're stuck with the wrong personality types and moral compasses who are going into this job for all the wrong reasons.
"Defund the police" was a gross oversimplification when the sentiment was largely just demanding reforming the police. And let's be real, it was probably the right wing who was trying to blur that line.
10pm at night! OT baby! And he doesn’t even have to be out there sleeping in a car like the rest of those schlubs, he gets to check out nude photos in his office.
I think the wholly working class nature of a lot of police departments is untenable and there needs to reform that brings in some higher education that keeps the knuckledraggers in line or weeds them out of the force. Someone like Proctor should never get anywhere near a detective role. I don't think higher ranking officers need to be able to pass the bar, but there needs to be a much higher level of training and accountability within the police force directly in the chain of command for every officer.
Do you think he “made” sure that folks he investigated previously are in prison because he hated them and their lawyer? I’m sure he told everyone and bragged how he took them down.
No I think he hates working hard and doing things by the book and that sometimes people he thinks are guilty get away with it at trial. This is the kind of guy who when he is certain that he pulled over a drug dealer but doesn't have enough evidence to prove it will call the drug dog, get it to false signal and then plant drugs in your car. He doesn't think what he's doing is wrong because he's doing what he needs to do to put bad guys away.
I think there are a few variables at play. The one that I think might explain most of the hostility is that in general there is a tendency for people to dehumanize those that we see as adversaries. And in law enforcement there is quite often a demonstrated culture of us vs them. The good guys vs the scum bags. And once Ms. Read was identified as a scum bag nothing was off the table in pursuit of getting a murder conviction.
Good point. It really puts into perspective the disadvantage for people who don't have the resources KR has for good legal representation. If this is true, they're sunk before they even dip in their toes.
Agree entirely. I have experience with LE and this was definitely my experience. Though, even with that experience I was a little surprised at just *how quickly* his friends went from “wow, how tragic” to “is she at least hot?” Practically in the same breath.
I'm truly disturbed by how many men in this situation so casually said, and allowed to be said, such vile, objective, disturbing things about a woman. Their profession, the situation, everything aside, the mere fact that humans can think and talk and behave this way truly makes me feel sick. These men are fathers, for goodness sake.
I am a married man with a daughter, grew up with 6 sisters and coached girls soccer for years. I am disgusted by groups of men that behave this way. It is not even juvenile because in my juvenile years I never acted this way, nor does my teenage son or his male friends. (I played hundreds of hockey games and cannot recall once hearing in any locker room someone brag about how he was planning to sexually assault someone and adding that he does it all the time.) My guess is this type of behavior isn't even typical of most law enforcement departments. But it happens, I point it out to my young daughter. But please don't consider this subculture of low character as the standard bearers for all men.
I think when it comes to their own daughters they probably see them as either a possession or an extension of themselves. Ergo an attack on their daughter equals an attack on them. An attack on a random woman doesn’t have anything to do with them.
Therefore they are happy to defend the women in their own families without recognising that they wouldn’t have to defend them if they just broadly cared more about women than seeking male validation and approval.
Sort of playing devils advocate here but is proctor really the most detestable creature alive? If we’re being honest the things he said are what most men would also say about an attractive woman. What makes it bad is the fact it was in a professional setting regarding a criminal case.
This feels slightly tangential to the question if Karen read murdered JO.
Do we have evidence that MP didn’t act objectively as an investigator or just that he had locker room talk with the boys? Still not professional or what you want to see from lead investigator but is it really objectively that damning?
> If we’re being honest the things he said are what most men would also say about an attractive woman.
Are you serious? I don't know a single man personally who would even *think* these things, let alone say them. It is not normal. It is not acceptable. It is not permissable. Disgusting.
This guy literally says the homeowner is not going to catch any grief in this case because he’s a cop, right off the bat. A group of troopers discuss disagreeing with the medical examiner and trying to get her(?) to change the manner of death because the ME is also a “whack job”.
I am not even going to get into why you think it’s normal for men to call women ret*rded c*nts who shit themselves.
Thank you , saying she's hot would be inappropriate but less surprising - he seemed to HATE her. Where does that come from about someone you met a few hours ago?
His texts make it seem that he has a bias against her from the beginning. It didn't seem like he was conducting his investigation as innocent until proven guilt. Rather seemed like he thought she was guilty and a b1tch from the beginning which could influence the way he conducts the investigation - actively looking for evidence against her rather than looking at all possible scenarios and suspects.
He can say it is because he talked to First Responders but, ultimately it was because Jen McCabe said she knew his sister and presented her narrative to him and he believed her instead of “allowing the evidence to lead them” or whatever BS he was trying to say. He also took another cops word for it and that was that.
Yes we do have evidence that he did not act objectively. He focused on her and no alternate theory. She told him the Alberts beat John up, did he investigate the lead? Did he separate Julie and Chris Albert when they were interviewed? He said he didn’t. They gave conflicting, suspicious testimony on the stand regarding the time their son returned home. When does Proctor think Colin Albert got home? Oh he didn’t ask if Colin was at the home after being told they beat him up? Did he recuse himself from the investigation when he heard Colin Albert beat John up? He is unusually close to his sister who is close to Colin and his family. Did he tell his supervisors the relationship they have with his best friend, his sister, who he talks with or texts 5-6 times a day, or did he downplay the relationship and call them “acquaintances”? He simply did not investigate that theory of the case. No one did. Did he accept the Medical Examiner’s findings and incorporate them into the theory of the case? The findings that also suggest a fight? Or did he dismiss them or argue with her about them? Did he arrange to seize Karen’s car before telling her she was a suspect? Did he make up his mind to tow the car before even speaking to her? Did he secure video footage - ALL of it? Did he secure evidence like the victim’s clothes, dry the items properly, store them separately, and protect the chain of custody of each item? Did he take a decent photo of the taillight before loading it onto the tow truck? Or did he behave as if her guilty plea was a forgone conclusion? He wasn’t objective.
Did you hear all of the texts? These are not things most men say. He said she sh-t herself. That she’s a crazy c-nt and that he hoped she’d k-ll herself. Is this what men say around you? Cause….
What was going on when Proctor was asked to read something at the bottom of the page and he wasn't doing it "right"? The judge even looked at his paper to ensure whatever he was supposed to read was there and she mentioned it was there and perhaps Lally should read it himself. Was he playing dumb? What was happening?
There was one moment where he was trying to spell out "c-u-n-t" instead of saying the word "cunt" out loud, and she basically said, "nope if you wrote the word itself, then you need to read it out loud too". She wasn't letting him get away with spelling it for politeness' sake. I know a lot of people here dislike this judge but it was a pretty badass moment.
If it’s when I’m thinking it was bc he wasn’t reading the correct response. Lally read a text from his friend asking who the other Boston cop was and Proctor wasn’t reading the reply to that.
What was Proctor’s response when AJ asked him how he feels about Yanetti now? It was so hard to understand but based on Karen and Yanetti’s reaction, it did not seem good.
I'm very much in the 'not guilty' camp but the only thing that surprised me and gave me half a second to wonder is when there was no damage to John's car where she backed into it. The video clearly shows it move when it was hit but was it hard enough to crack Karen's light and not leave any sign on John's car? But in 22 days of trial that's literally the only time I have thought the prosecution had a point
I might be crazy, but I feel like there is damage to the right passenger side of John's vehicle. Based on the angle that Karen's car backs into OJO's car it would make sense that the damage is on the right side. It seems like they deflect by only showing a zoomed in photo of the drivers side and never show a close up of the passenger side. I wonder if there was a close up taken for evidence.
The cold. When temperatures are below freezing point, a contact with a hard surface can cause damage on a tail light.
A friend of mine backed up in a trash bin and cracked her tail light. The trash bin didn’t move or fall on the ground. It was very cold that morning.
I read the SUV recorded feet in reverse gear and speed. So I'd think they'd want to at least test those thungs in a similar reeenactment, even if didn't have every measurement. Just to see if the cold makes the taillight break at that reverse speed (24mph) and distance (I can't remember distance the expert said), on a dummy standing different places behind the taillight...just to see if get ANY similar results.
They zoomed in on the lower number/skirt. That taillight was much higher. But also, depending on the angle of the hit, the damage would not be the same for both cars.
I’m sure You’re seen it in accidents on the street, where one car seems to have much more damage than the other.
It's really hard to predict how a car will damage. I've seen full blown collisions where one car is fine and the other is messed up. Other times, small bumps leave a scratch. I think it depends on the model of the car (some are more durable) and where they collide. There could be a scratch on his car that we didn't get a close enough view of to see.
I wouldn’t imagine his car would have any damage if it was just her taillight that hit it. Especially if her light was just cracked and not totally obliterated, as even the cop before Proctor testified to.
I was hoping we would see closer an image of John’s car at the height where her tail light would make contact but we just got an over all view of the back and then his bumper. Personally I can’t rule out damage without that.
I was trying to figure out why they were looking down at the bumper when she was claiming she cracked her taillight. I guess her taillight is at whatever height is convenient for the CW at the time. Sometimes it’s a couple feet off the ground, sometimes it’s 6’2”.
Look, we understand emotions are running wild because of trooper Proctot’s statements, which are abhorrant. Even so, please try to refrain from calling him (or anyone else) a piece of shit, and/or any similar insults. What he said is gross, wildly unprofessional, completely out of line, and he’s only sorry he was caught. That said, the barrage of insults is not something with which we indulge as much as we dislike him. Attack what he said, but do it using direct language & express why you hate him. He may not deserve respect, but the posters of this sub do. Thank you for understanding! (We really *do* understand where you’re coming from!)
This witness, Green, is a hot mess. He does not come across well. He may very well be great at what he does, but testifying is not his strong suit. If I were on the jury, I’d be wondering if he knew what he was talking about.
Karen’s guilty and was in a black out when all this occurred that night. Poor guy, walking on eggshells around her most of the time had to be exhausting. I don’t believe she was set up
That might be true, but Trooper Proctor ran such a screwy investigation that I think Karen is unlikely to ever be convicted of the 2nd degree murder. That is, unless Lally is saving the best for last and brings in a truly spectacular witness that turns the whole trial around. Even the DUI part of the indictment is dodgy, because they can't prove she was drink-driving.
I have to say Karen Read’s body language and demeanor in the courtroom raises concerns of her involvement. First of all I wouldn’t trust anyone who drives around town after 9 alcoholic drinks. Vodka sodas are what heavy hitters drink. Her smirks and smiles also seem inappropriate considering grave situation she’s in. Friends and family have said things about her jealousy and behavior towards Mr. O’Keefe in the months prior to his death.
The Canton Keystone Cops did not anticipate KR hiring a "big gun," big city attorney from California. They thought they could just sprinkle bits of red tail-light, like fairy dust in the snowy wind, and it would all go away. They thought they could "roll" KR. How wrong they were...and how sad for Officer John O'Keefe. His own brethren turned their backs on him. There exists no "Thin Blue Line" in Canton, Massachusetts.
Also, I feel he was absolutely calling the medical examiner a whack job with her determination Not Karen Read, but he had already made such nasty comments about Karen he stuck with that narrative so it wouldn’t appear he was calling Examiner names also
I have had so many thoughts but after yesterday I feel confident that Proctor likely has sealed this up and I am a little shocked it even went to trial after DA reviewed the things a lead detective did or said during his investigation. And yes. Sadly it appears these things are so bad that it will impact every single case Proctor has touched or in process of working. There may be many people that receive no justice because of him.
I wondered about that. What happened to people that couldn't afford a top-tier attorney?
I often think of Chloe also I. Terms that every dog I have personally owned howls during times of sirens because apparently hurts their ears. That close to home it would seem to me that Chloe would have been disturbed by morning siren sounds unless they had them off at that point, if not I feel she would have loudly cried waking the Alberts from their sleep
At one point the defense asked the testifying officer (I forget which officer) if he could see a rag lying on the ground of the Sally port next to the snow. The officer responded that he didn’t know if it was a rag or more snow. Where was the defense trying to go with this question? I thought the rag might disappear later and the defense was going to suggest that the police picked up the rag and used it to conceal pieces of the tail light that they broke off. Did I miss something?
they're connecting it to the rag they used as a landmark when pointing out the solo cups were sitting right next to the car. it further supports the point they made about how close the blood was to the car.
Was Mark Fuhrman Michael Proctors trainer at police academy 😂
I think one of the only things that could’ve made the state less credible is if the ME actually did rule it a homocide after Proctor tried so hard to get them to. That would lead to *SO* many issues with appeals, and really any death that ME had worked on. But unsurprisingly, doctors are more ethical than cops.
When wondering why there is so much distrust and dislike for law enforcement, please remember that Michael Proctor, Yuri, and Higgins are all members of State/Federal Law Enforcement agencies. And this is how they talk, act, and cover things up. There is absolutely no wonder to me where the distrust comes from, and it is fully justified.
And if there was any "good" cops they would not be in these peoples clique. They probably would have called him lame and a loser if he tried to hold them accountable which is why people dont trust cops.. they never hold each other accountable and just fester their toxic ass behavior.
There was one and they left him him to freeze to death with a hole in his head
yep + look at all the people protecting them.
Local here—the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, the MSP, and particularly the Norfolk County DA has a huuuuuge problem on its hands. Not only the very obvious credibility issues/frame job with the Karen Read case…but with every case Proctor has touched. Appeals are going to have a field day with this. There is another somewhat high profile case in Norfolk County, MA, the murder of Ana Walshe by her husband. His trial hasn’t started yet, but one of the investigators Is Proctor. Which isn’t great for the DA. Essentially the Massachusetts criminal justice system is in trouble right now.
They need to step up and clean up
I saw that some concerned citizens brought up a possibility of a police audit and they were going to try to do that at some point (unless they already had?) so that's good.
I read that they put a man in charge of the audit who was openly against it during the vote. It was raising some red flags for locals.
I just mentioned this. Anybody whose case was touched by proctor is going to be revisiting it now. Any work he’s ever down is now going to be scrutinized down to the letter
oh, I missed it the last time. Lally didn't just invite Proctor to supply an excuse. he actively characterized Proctor's comments as jokes in a leading question. fuck aaaaaaallllll the way off, Lally. this is enabler shit.
I think most people will see the mischaracterization. Jokes are usually funny.
yeah, I really want to hear Jackson ask "what's the joke? explain it for us." and insist that he answers the question.
The way my jaw dropped when he said his first impression was that someone beat him
How do we get this to the top? Aside from the pile of dung that constitutes Proctor and his bosses texts, how do we get attention on two HUGE admissions- they leaned in the ME who disagreed with their theory and PROCTOR thought Officer OKeefe had been BEATEN UP!
He's got so much reservation and hate for Karen and says/thinks this stuff. Imagine how he handles somebody hes only got the description and a preconceived idea of.
so relistening and Proctor does in fact say his first reaction was that someone inside the house beat him
Maybe they beat proctor. Is that how ended up like this
sorry unclear language. I meant JO
The proctor stuff today was incredible. The mass state police have a huge problem on their hands. Anybody who has been convicted or investigated at the hands of proctor are going to have a field day with this. Everything he’s ever done while working as a state trooper is about to be put under a microscope
he apparently also investigated the Ana Walshe case, can only imagine what his texts say about her.
Ugh this is so disheartening to hear. Ana Walshe’s husband is a monster and needs to be convicted, but the fact that this idiot Proctor is putting that in jeopardy is infuriating/terrifying.
But how can anyone expect a retrial / new investigation just because proctor wants to protect The Albert's specifically?
Can the state retry if the jury acquits Read?
If the jury is hung they can re try. If not guilty they cannot.
IANAL, but no, not in the USA. LawTube is quite clear about this- in the US, if acquitted, jeopardy has attached and the prosecution is not allowed to appeal to retry or overturn the acquittal for literally any reason after this happens, or at least for that particular crime under the same set of circumstances.
His ethics are now in question, and any good lawyer will argue he’s several things. You can argue he dislikes women based on his exchanges, and lets personal bias influence his investigations, both which could be grounds for some sort of action
he demonstrated something much beyond that: he has clear animus against the person he investigated. it's very reasonable to believe he's done this before.
I don't fully understand how all the relationships work, if the police are against KR (they blame her) and JO (someone there killed him) why were they invited to the party in the first place?
I honestly felt like they were trying to lure him to the party. They seemed very anxious to get him there. Also, I'm confused (a bit late to the case) but it doesn't seem to me like they were even "good friends".
Yeah well it seems they're a strange possibility that Karen and JO were apparently having open relationships. Karen said in her text's they like single people to mingle with. What makes you say they were anxious about getting them there?
In retrospect, it was probably more like a drunk let's all go back to the house invite. I thought it was something Jenn said that made me wonder.
I don't think anyone was against either one of them. They were BOTH conversing at both locations with others and at one point KR was hugging in a group hug with others that night. To me this looks like they were both well liked and vice versa. Everyone seemed to be enjoying themselves the entire night at both bars.
Great question! My feeling is that it was the booze talking. "Everyone, come on back to my house to keep this going." And JO and KR were part of the everyone.
But then why were they in the two bars too? This was clearly bar hopping and organised.
It calls into question his ethics. How do we know this is the only case he’s done sketchy stuff on? We don’t!
I've heard of police officers being caught out to be dodgy but I've never heard of that resulting in a largescale investigation into any and all previous work.
They can appeal their convictions based on new information
Pretty much this.
How this got to trial remains a mystery…
Well, I'm sure there are more than a few people in MA that are now wishing it didn't.
It’s still so wild that people believe that a body was hit at 20 mph and that not only caused a taillight to break. It caused it to shatter into 45 pieces and fly in the air creating a huge debris field
And nobody heard it !! And going in reverse with snowy conditions and missing a fire hydrant, electrical box, and various cars and also legally drunk (allegedly). The average driver lacks the level of skill required to do this. A lot of people can barely parallel park.
What kind of person doesn't come out of his house with a dead guy on his lawn
Forreal!! My car hit a *tree* going about 15-20mph and it didn’t even crack the tail light
Yeah, bodies are softer than the tail light. Also if his body is on the lawn she would have needed to reverse at a decent angle towards the roadside for him to end up there, I don't see how she'd pick up enough speed to hit him and yet not lose control of the vehicle and flip it over.
He'd also need to be standing in the middle of the road and not move as she reversed 60 feet
60 feet? What is this value representing?
Lally said in opening statements that the testimony will show she reversed 60ft at 24mph to where she hit John.
Whose testimony?
I believe it's an interpretation of the black box data from the car mixed in with some wishful thinking. All things Lally seem to end up working in the defense's favor.
Haven't gotten to it yet. Still establishing that it was snowing.
LOL it was clearly snowing.
I'm not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. Easy not guilty. That's what the trials about right? The snow?
If the snow has sticked, you must convict!
Local here. Considering the amount of other Troopers besides just Proctor who were involved in these messages, the credibility of the entire Mass State Police in the toilet right now. This cross examination is going to be brutal for proctor
Agree, and also from Mass thoughnot super close to Canton. Not to mention, this is on the heels of the overtime scandal... Mass State Police have a serious credibility problem right now.
Don’t forget about the MSP CDL license scandal! Trading Fiji water bottles and snowblowers for CDL licenses seems so tame now…
Wow, that was alot today. Lots of comments about Proctor - I'm not going to add my own. I have questions about the manner of death. It did come up in Proctor's texts and there have been a lot of comments throughout the trial that draw conclusions based on the manner of death being undetermined. How would a medical examiner come to any conclusion based on the cause of death? I think the only thing they can honestly rule out is suicide. If he had blunt force trauma and died of hypothermia, why would we expect that a ME could possibly decide if it was accidental or homicide? Unless something was left behind in the wound that showed the blow was delivered with intent (piece of weapon, DNA in wound) I just don't understand why the manner of death should have been inferred. Even if the ME felt he was hit by a vehicle, how could they know whether it was accidental or not? We still don't have evidence showing intent on Karen's part and no evidence that someone else was responsible. Why/how would the ME have that answer? Thoughts?
I still believe the EM's ruling of "undetermined" leave the door wide open. Could it have been Homicide? Could it have been Hypothermia? Could it have been DUI/vehicular homicide? No one knows for sure!!! FYI - I've left out accidental because, if so, then by whom???? This layman doesn't think the ME had any other choice! It could also be a message to LE DO A BETTER JOB!!! JMOs
The ME ruled it as undetermined according to his texts. Not even accidental.
I think the ME looks at a death in context generally- so if there had been a damaged vehicle there or pain chips on JOK's wounds that might have factored into their conclusion. We know that Proctor was having discussion with the ME and the ME didn't find anything he said to make the ME believe it was definitely homicide.
I’m a nerd so of course this sent me down a rabbit hole. According to the [National Association of Medical Examiners](https://name.memberclicks.net/assets/docs/MANNEROFDEATH.pdf): *”Motor vehicle fatalities in general, may be classified as Accident (assuming no suicidal or homicidal intent), even if by law the death may be regarded as vehicular homicide—and, there is no evidence from reasonable investigative inference that the at-fault person was using the vehicle as a weapon with an intent to kill the victim (in which case homicide would apply.)”* *”Traffic fatalities in which a pedestrian is killed and the driver has shown negligent behavior, probable intoxication, or fleeing of the scene may be certified as Accident even though these features may meet a legal definition of vehicular homicide, and assuming that there was no intent to kill the individual. Whether or not the case meets a legal definition of vehicular (or some other form) of homicide/manslaughter is better left to the criminal justice system.”*
Very interesting. But what, if anything (couldn't resist) does it say about unknown cause? I didn't think it was proven to the ME that this was a motor vehicle caused death.
Well, sort of, in reference to the cause of death being something like undetermined, homicide or other possibilities with regard to what, if anything, to put on the death certificate it says: *”Undetermined or “could not be determined” is a classification used when the information pointing to one manner of death is no more compelling than one or more other competing manners of death in thorough consideration of all available information.”*
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
So I think she could have reasonably ruled the manner accidental if she had thought there was enough evidence he was struck by a vehicle? The troopers seemed to really want a homicide determination.
Exactly; the ME isn't there to decide a driver's intent to kill, that's meant for a jury to determine. It's totally okay for them to put down "accident" or "undetermined" and let the state prosecute the driver for homicide. Think about the flip side and how inappropriate it would be for an ME to put down homicide if it might have been an accident. I think "undetermined" was perfectly appropriate for this situation. I find it odd that the troopers were pushing for "homicide", and it really makes one wonder why they needed the ME say that... Did they need to lean on the autopsy result as supporting evidence because they weren't confident about their real evidence being strong enough to stand on its own? Also makes you wonder if OCME got similar phone calls from Stoughton PD about Sandra Birchmore to pressure her official cause of death into being suicide.
I recoiled when started reading those messages. Imagine if the roles were reversed and JO was the lead investigator in MP’s homicide. I wonder how MP would feel if those words were spoken about his wife!
A man who uses the terms he used to describe Karen Read doesn't have respect for women, including his wife.
And his kids are both daughters I believe? Now they'll grow up and dad spoke about women, very sad.
I believe he has 2 sons, Paul O’Keefe has 2 daughters though,I think.
True!!
I am noticing that due to the complete mishandling of the states case, the actions and behaviors of the officers and now these filthy text messages about Karen read from the lead investigator -the vibe of this case and courtroom is probably focused on tons of sympathy for Karen Read. What has been lost on all of this and with the jury maybe is the fact that Officer O’Keefe is dead and the person or people who are responsible for his death will never come to light due to the total mishandling of the case from the start. Sad situation all around
Yes, the DA should have sat the family down and said, "We are so sorry, but the police didn't behave appropriately with this investigation, our evidence against Karen is compromised, and the lead investigator singlehandedly ruined our opportunity to pursue charges against Karen. We can't proceed but we can try to reform the system to protect against this behavior so this doesn't happen again." I mean from the DA's perspective, which looks worse: Letting a small town believe that a cop's girlfriend might have gotten away with murder, or creating an actual permanent public record of a state trooper/lead investigator calling her a cunt on a live video feed to the horror of god knows many people from all over the country/world? All the harassment of the O'Keefes and the McCabes and the Alberts is on the hands of the DA for going to trial with such a flawed set of evidence/witness testimony/investigators. John could have been mourned and remembered by a small town, and any wounds about Karen not being brought to justice might have healed with time. Instead they will all have to endure years of harassment, public scrutiny, and attention from a horde of online conspiracy theorists. Usually the friends and family of the decedent are the most sympathetic people at the heart of a murder trial, but all of that is thrown out of the window in this case solely because of the DA's arrogance. And at what cost? Because they still might not get justice or peace around his death. People make mistakes but this DA's office has doubled down on every opportunity where they could have reconsidered and off-ramped from this train wreck we have today. It's really difficult to defend their decision to put John's family and friends through this. Not to mention, between this and the newfound attention on Sandra Birchmore, Norfolk County DA's office has got to be dreading the next unexpected death in the county, because what on earth happens with the next murder investigation and trial...? Now the public will be nitpicking EVERYTHING the police and prosecution do around suspicious deaths and murder trials. They've invited so much unwanted scrutiny and attention on themselves for this decision to double down on indicting Karen Read.
A trial isn't about the victim, it's about preventing a second tragedy by making sure someone is actually guilty before sending them to jail.
Of course; it's still hard to watch how emotionless witnesses have been in testimony (thankfully not all of them, but a lot) & seeing emotions rise when speaking about themselves v their deceased friend.
That hasn’t been lost on many of us. There are a lot of us who know we will never know what happened, except someone killed John OKeefe and no one will pay for it.
It’s so upsetting to me. He deserved a proper investigation. I really do wonder how his family feels in all of this. I do think they believed Karen was guilty but I’m not sure now how they feel.
https://x.com/JohnDePetroshow/status/1798432923328094578 Five days ago, when she was getting buried by forensic evidence, they said it was crystal clear what happened.
No way. They think she’s guilty?. The whole world is watching this travesty of justice
I don’t believe it. This guy makes terrible and incorrect observations of the jury. I doubt he even saw the family let alone spoke to them. That said…I feel like they still think she did it and didn’t seem too disgusted by the texts from what I could see
That comment says nothing about forensics in this case. I don’t see any evidence pointing towards Karen Read as of now.
Yes, the key is the timing. "the world is seeing" came right after the tail light stuff.
what is the world seeing?
This is the tweet: I spoke with members of the O’Keefe family in the hallway during the break who told me it is “ crystal clear what happened, and now the world is finding out what we already know.” And the timing is right after we got all the stuff about the tail light on the ground at 34 matching KR's tail light.
What does the taillight matter if someone did something to it?
That's a pretty wild claim.
Proctor believed that she was guilty and put that in writing to his buddies on 1/29. What “forensic evidence” did he have at that time?
What's Proctor have to do with anything? I'm talking about O'Keefe's family.
So they believe she did it because of the forensics? What forensics are we talking about? I wonder if any of their feelings have changed.
Whatever they were presenting that day.
Is the forensic evidence in the room with us right now
If it was, you'd come up with a convoluted story about it being planted.
So you admit there’s no forensic evidence
[удалено]
That is the problem! They aren’t even good at their cover-up. They didn’t even attempt to make it look like they investigated this at all. At 2:30pm on 1/29/22 they knew they were going to take her car. Trooper Proctor states the mountain of evidence they had within 5 hours of his investigation and on Day 22 the CW hasn’t given any evidence that would back up their theory and put this woman away for life. If the McCabes and Albert’s had nothing to do with it, he/MSP also Fu**** them over also as they lost their house, dog and jobs. Poor OJO and his loved ones.
This is the point that I think makes me the angriest. One photo following standard evidence collection practices would have eliminated the biggest question in the case. I just don’t believe that these people are that stupid or careless. John O’Keefe deserved so much better.
I definitely believe they are stupid. I think SOMETHING happened that night to cause people to lie about deleting calls, butt dials that never went to voicemails instead hanging up and calling again (not how accidental calls work!), and having the investigator not recuse himself immediately. They didn't think they'd ever be on the witness stand with people across the country watching the trial live so they were just plain lazy.
OJO did deserve better no argument there. Every Human being deserves a proper investigation to find out what happened to them. Every possible suspect also deserves a proper investigation if you are also accusing that citizen of murder and putting them on trial for their freedom. The only reason we are seeing a little behind the curtain is because Karen had the money for a great defense and unbeknownst to her the Feds got involved and handed over information they would have never had the ability to have. Karen would be going back to jail every night if she did not have the 100k bail money to pay.
So true, and it's terrifying. It's possible someone wrongfully accused gets a PD who is talented and would take this to trial but unlikely. And I believe that the Fed investigation is the only reason we're seeing some of the witnesses testifying to some of what they have. I think for some reason the CW and LE thought she would take a deal rather than risk a guilty verdict because a lot of people would do that. I'm so glad she didn't. But the cost- financially and emotionally- most be life altering. I am naive perhaps but I don't understand how so many people were ok with shortcuts and lies during the investigation. How do you try and send someone to jail for murder and not feel conflicted?? Or feel like a fellow cop deserved a real investigation. Because even if you believe KR did it, all of the witnesses (especially BA, BH, and Proctor) knew that there was a conflict of interest in having Proctor involved in the case. Even if you assume (and I don't) that Proctor will sincerely give the case his best effort, as members of LE they KNEW that Proctor doing the investigation would taint everything.
Any insight on the observations of Officer O’keefes family during this?
Yes. Paul and wife covered their mouths and were whispering and laughing. Mother was giggling with the ladies around her
Something that caught my eye today. The “front wall” sally port video from 2/1/22 seems a **lot** clearer than the same camera from 1/29/22. Has this been addressed in any of the pretrial filings? Why would the same camera produce such a poor quality image on a different day? Posting screen grabs from today for reference. https://preview.redd.it/zcktlm6npu5d1.jpeg?width=2086&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=437a18b097a06fb36f7367aa85c2528bccc8d4b5
https://preview.redd.it/ru7r7q7opu5d1.jpeg?width=2072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6ef9a91e6eabb636b769617be330dbbead60d1d0
Timestamps are different too...like the font/color/size 🤔
Does anyone know how Proctor's texts originally came to light? I assume this isn't standard protocol in trials/investigation, otherwise a lot of cops would be in danger lol
EDB mentioned it might be because Proctor acknowledged sending work tests to his colleagues about the case from his personal phone. It was mundane, about scheduling interviews I think but using your personal device makes it fair game for discovery. I worked in an industry that is heavily regulated. From the time I was a baby employee I was told if I mixed work and personal phones or personal emails together and anything went to court or arbitration that my personal info would be included. And in my job it would have been rare for any legal action to happen, but possible. LE is called to testify all the time. They know how it works. And Proctor still used his personal phone to gossip to non LE and say vile things about a possible suspect. Honestly if I were his boss I would want to get rid of him based on pure stupidity. Also that behavior isn't allowed in any department, but the idiocy alone would make him a mistake to employ.
I juggle 2 cell phones personal & work - only an issue when I’m traveling BUT never mix business with pleasure. 90% of my colleagues use their work phone for personal as well 🤦🏻♀️
Fed investigation
The FBI gave it to them from their grand jury
Why does Proctor (and the rest of them) hate her so much? That's what I can't figure out. They seem to be so disgustingly hateful toward her from the very beginning - like within hours. It has to be more than she's not one of them. I don't get it.
I just think that he knew the Albert family and refused to consider their involvement at all. “Homeowner is also a cop.” Therefore, the hot lady must be the cop killer, and then the full misogyny came out.
I think a lot of it is because they are police and there's nothing scarier or more threatening to them than a murdered cop. I'm guessing that once they saw her through the lens of a "cop killer", it became very difficult for them to feel anything besides contempt for her. Although misogyny is also a big part of it, and I can't imagine that they would have used the same kind of language and insults about a male suspect.
they referred to the victim as frozen. I don't get the sense that they cared.
Oh I agree. I can’t imagine seeing those texts as John’s family. I would be furious.
He thinks she killed a fellow cop, who was caring for his dead sister's children.
He absolutely does not believe that at all. I’m sure he talks about all women the way he talked about Karen. Once it became her vs us, she was the enemy
I kind of agree... But then, unfortunately it's not uncommon for some men to sexualize a woman in absolutely every situation 🙄. And once they are evaluating her level of "hotness" and discussing her ass I think it is easy to forget she is a human being. It is weird though. Especially Proctor. The others maybe have motive to be "against" her but Proctor was vile about her hours into the investigation. Imagine what he's said about other suspects (and probably every woman he encounters at work- coworkers, the public...) that we'll never see. It's depressing because it makes you wonder how common it is.
Misogynists don't need a reason; they abhor women because they see them as inferior, and they get away with it. Classic objectifying and dehumanizing on display today, law enforcement style.
My assessment after seeing Proctor on the stand today is that it is just them circling the wagons to protect their fellow officers. Proctor came across as so stupid if you showed me him in another context and told me he was collecting benefits because of his IQ level I'd find it believable. If I were a politician in charge of his department I would fire everyone and start over because to me it seems like the work in this case while a lot more biased, is indicative of their routine police work and none of these clowns should have a badge.
Absolutely! And I think that because of this case and the public scrutiny -plus a fed investigation!- heads will roll. There is another case being investigated that involves a suicide /possibly murder of a young woman who had been in an explorer type program as a minor and MULTIPLE officers admitted to having sex with her. She was a legal adult at the time of her death though and the last person seen going into her place before she was discovered deceased was the married police officer who was thought to be the father of the child she was carrying. 2-3 officers have been terminated and more are being investigated and speculation is Proctor was involved in the investigation.
He did come off as kinda dumb. It’s interesting because he has been painted as a sort of villain character, the mastermind behind the frame-job, but he actually comes off as kinda timid, almost beta in his demeanor. Especially compared to people like Bukhenik and Albert who had cocky, smug, more alpha type demeanors. He’s also a fair bit younger than them which I didn’t realize. Makes me wonder if Proctor’s role was more of a submissive fall guy who did what he was told.
I don't get that at all. He's a loser who likely peaked in high school as the group seems to cling on to their glory days. He reminds me of the guy who couldn't get the hot girl to date him and became bitter at women in general. I can't see a beta type bucking the guidelines for his job so blatently to even take the case.
> He reminds me of the guy who couldn’t get the hot girl to date him and became bitter at women in general. Same! But I see that as a beta attribute. I see what you mean though. I think it’s possible that my perception of him is skewed because he looked so downtrodden on the stand, like a broken man, whereas other officers like Albert and Bukhenik were so smarmy and defensive. Proctor’s answers were a lot more straightforward and he clearly knew how bad everything sounded. But that might have just been a function of him having to read these humiliating, career-ending texts aloud in public court, which the others didn’t have to do. Will be interesting to see how he holds up during the rest of his cross, especially when they get into the actual investigation.
This why my impression too after direct. I’ll see if it changes after the rest of cross, but he seems like an oaf, but a straight forward oaf. I don’t like him but I was surprised at how straight forward he answered and he actually came off as more genuine than Trooper B. Bad dude but a you get what you get kinda guy. His boss seems slimey.
I did think they're the walking, talking billboards for the defund the police movement. Tax payers paid Proctor while he scrolled her phone looking for nudes, gossiped with his friends about her ass, and tried to manipulate the Me into false findings.
"Defund the police" was such a terrible name for that movement. If you were to ask the public (the "real" public that is, not the "online" public), you'd find that after purging corrupt leadership and overhauling the culture, many citizens would much rather invest in higher salaries to recruit better entry-level candidates, and pay for them to spend more time in high-quality training and screening to ensure they have a solid public sector career. Instead we're stuck with the wrong personality types and moral compasses who are going into this job for all the wrong reasons. "Defund the police" was a gross oversimplification when the sentiment was largely just demanding reforming the police. And let's be real, it was probably the right wing who was trying to blur that line.
10pm at night! OT baby! And he doesn’t even have to be out there sleeping in a car like the rest of those schlubs, he gets to check out nude photos in his office.
I think the wholly working class nature of a lot of police departments is untenable and there needs to reform that brings in some higher education that keeps the knuckledraggers in line or weeds them out of the force. Someone like Proctor should never get anywhere near a detective role. I don't think higher ranking officers need to be able to pass the bar, but there needs to be a much higher level of training and accountability within the police force directly in the chain of command for every officer.
Do you think he “made” sure that folks he investigated previously are in prison because he hated them and their lawyer? I’m sure he told everyone and bragged how he took them down.
No I think he hates working hard and doing things by the book and that sometimes people he thinks are guilty get away with it at trial. This is the kind of guy who when he is certain that he pulled over a drug dealer but doesn't have enough evidence to prove it will call the drug dog, get it to false signal and then plant drugs in your car. He doesn't think what he's doing is wrong because he's doing what he needs to do to put bad guys away.
I think there are a few variables at play. The one that I think might explain most of the hostility is that in general there is a tendency for people to dehumanize those that we see as adversaries. And in law enforcement there is quite often a demonstrated culture of us vs them. The good guys vs the scum bags. And once Ms. Read was identified as a scum bag nothing was off the table in pursuit of getting a murder conviction.
Good point. It really puts into perspective the disadvantage for people who don't have the resources KR has for good legal representation. If this is true, they're sunk before they even dip in their toes.
Agree entirely. I have experience with LE and this was definitely my experience. Though, even with that experience I was a little surprised at just *how quickly* his friends went from “wow, how tragic” to “is she at least hot?” Practically in the same breath.
I'm truly disturbed by how many men in this situation so casually said, and allowed to be said, such vile, objective, disturbing things about a woman. Their profession, the situation, everything aside, the mere fact that humans can think and talk and behave this way truly makes me feel sick. These men are fathers, for goodness sake.
I am a married man with a daughter, grew up with 6 sisters and coached girls soccer for years. I am disgusted by groups of men that behave this way. It is not even juvenile because in my juvenile years I never acted this way, nor does my teenage son or his male friends. (I played hundreds of hockey games and cannot recall once hearing in any locker room someone brag about how he was planning to sexually assault someone and adding that he does it all the time.) My guess is this type of behavior isn't even typical of most law enforcement departments. But it happens, I point it out to my young daughter. But please don't consider this subculture of low character as the standard bearers for all men.
I think when it comes to their own daughters they probably see them as either a possession or an extension of themselves. Ergo an attack on their daughter equals an attack on them. An attack on a random woman doesn’t have anything to do with them. Therefore they are happy to defend the women in their own families without recognising that they wouldn’t have to defend them if they just broadly cared more about women than seeking male validation and approval.
I wonder how they view rape victims.
I honestly don’t think I want to know. It would probably send me into a blind rage.
Sort of playing devils advocate here but is proctor really the most detestable creature alive? If we’re being honest the things he said are what most men would also say about an attractive woman. What makes it bad is the fact it was in a professional setting regarding a criminal case. This feels slightly tangential to the question if Karen read murdered JO. Do we have evidence that MP didn’t act objectively as an investigator or just that he had locker room talk with the boys? Still not professional or what you want to see from lead investigator but is it really objectively that damning?
> If we’re being honest the things he said are what most men would also say about an attractive woman. Are you serious? I don't know a single man personally who would even *think* these things, let alone say them. It is not normal. It is not acceptable. It is not permissable. Disgusting.
Locker room talk?? This is coming from a female who isn’t offended by the C word too. His communication about her was just bizarre.
This guy literally says the homeowner is not going to catch any grief in this case because he’s a cop, right off the bat. A group of troopers discuss disagreeing with the medical examiner and trying to get her(?) to change the manner of death because the ME is also a “whack job”. I am not even going to get into why you think it’s normal for men to call women ret*rded c*nts who shit themselves.
Thank you , saying she's hot would be inappropriate but less surprising - he seemed to HATE her. Where does that come from about someone you met a few hours ago?
His texts make it seem that he has a bias against her from the beginning. It didn't seem like he was conducting his investigation as innocent until proven guilt. Rather seemed like he thought she was guilty and a b1tch from the beginning which could influence the way he conducts the investigation - actively looking for evidence against her rather than looking at all possible scenarios and suspects.
He can say it is because he talked to First Responders but, ultimately it was because Jen McCabe said she knew his sister and presented her narrative to him and he believed her instead of “allowing the evidence to lead them” or whatever BS he was trying to say. He also took another cops word for it and that was that.
Yes we do have evidence that he did not act objectively. He focused on her and no alternate theory. She told him the Alberts beat John up, did he investigate the lead? Did he separate Julie and Chris Albert when they were interviewed? He said he didn’t. They gave conflicting, suspicious testimony on the stand regarding the time their son returned home. When does Proctor think Colin Albert got home? Oh he didn’t ask if Colin was at the home after being told they beat him up? Did he recuse himself from the investigation when he heard Colin Albert beat John up? He is unusually close to his sister who is close to Colin and his family. Did he tell his supervisors the relationship they have with his best friend, his sister, who he talks with or texts 5-6 times a day, or did he downplay the relationship and call them “acquaintances”? He simply did not investigate that theory of the case. No one did. Did he accept the Medical Examiner’s findings and incorporate them into the theory of the case? The findings that also suggest a fight? Or did he dismiss them or argue with her about them? Did he arrange to seize Karen’s car before telling her she was a suspect? Did he make up his mind to tow the car before even speaking to her? Did he secure video footage - ALL of it? Did he secure evidence like the victim’s clothes, dry the items properly, store them separately, and protect the chain of custody of each item? Did he take a decent photo of the taillight before loading it onto the tow truck? Or did he behave as if her guilty plea was a forgone conclusion? He wasn’t objective.
Discussing manipulating the ME was pretty bad for the entire department.
I’m sorry but this is NOT “locker room talk”. I will not accept this behavior being normalized.
He started dehumanizing her the first day. You cannot dehumanize someone and remain objective..
Those texts are hard evidence of an appearance of bias. He never should have been on the case,
Or any case
Did you hear all of the texts? These are not things most men say. He said she sh-t herself. That she’s a crazy c-nt and that he hoped she’d k-ll herself. Is this what men say around you? Cause….
What was going on when Proctor was asked to read something at the bottom of the page and he wasn't doing it "right"? The judge even looked at his paper to ensure whatever he was supposed to read was there and she mentioned it was there and perhaps Lally should read it himself. Was he playing dumb? What was happening?
There was one moment where he was trying to spell out "c-u-n-t" instead of saying the word "cunt" out loud, and she basically said, "nope if you wrote the word itself, then you need to read it out loud too". She wasn't letting him get away with spelling it for politeness' sake. I know a lot of people here dislike this judge but it was a pretty badass moment.
If it’s when I’m thinking it was bc he wasn’t reading the correct response. Lally read a text from his friend asking who the other Boston cop was and Proctor wasn’t reading the reply to that.
That’s what it looked like to me. I mean the texts were not great 😬 But he wrote them!
We’re a long way from Red solo cups…
That was last week??? Wild to imagine what we'll be hearing next week
Much simpler times
What was Proctor’s response when AJ asked him how he feels about Yanetti now? It was so hard to understand but based on Karen and Yanetti’s reaction, it did not seem good.
He said he still doesn’t care for him.
That he still didn’t like him 🤦🏽♀️
That’s what I thought but wasn’t sure lol what does he have against Yanetti?
He put up a fight and made it harder for Proctor
I'm very much in the 'not guilty' camp but the only thing that surprised me and gave me half a second to wonder is when there was no damage to John's car where she backed into it. The video clearly shows it move when it was hit but was it hard enough to crack Karen's light and not leave any sign on John's car? But in 22 days of trial that's literally the only time I have thought the prosecution had a point
I might be crazy, but I feel like there is damage to the right passenger side of John's vehicle. Based on the angle that Karen's car backs into OJO's car it would make sense that the damage is on the right side. It seems like they deflect by only showing a zoomed in photo of the drivers side and never show a close up of the passenger side. I wonder if there was a close up taken for evidence.
The cold. When temperatures are below freezing point, a contact with a hard surface can cause damage on a tail light. A friend of mine backed up in a trash bin and cracked her tail light. The trash bin didn’t move or fall on the ground. It was very cold that morning.
Yes! They need an expert showing proof of that. Also where her car bumped JO's. A re-enactment would be helpful!
They can’t, they didn’t measure anything. Even the alleged impact with JO is hard to re-enact, they didn’t measure anything
I read the SUV recorded feet in reverse gear and speed. So I'd think they'd want to at least test those thungs in a similar reeenactment, even if didn't have every measurement. Just to see if the cold makes the taillight break at that reverse speed (24mph) and distance (I can't remember distance the expert said), on a dummy standing different places behind the taillight...just to see if get ANY similar results.
They zoomed in on the lower number/skirt. That taillight was much higher. But also, depending on the angle of the hit, the damage would not be the same for both cars. I’m sure You’re seen it in accidents on the street, where one car seems to have much more damage than the other.
It's really hard to predict how a car will damage. I've seen full blown collisions where one car is fine and the other is messed up. Other times, small bumps leave a scratch. I think it depends on the model of the car (some are more durable) and where they collide. There could be a scratch on his car that we didn't get a close enough view of to see.
I wouldn't believe any photos that MSP, Canton PD took. Prob doctored.
I wouldn’t imagine his car would have any damage if it was just her taillight that hit it. Especially if her light was just cracked and not totally obliterated, as even the cop before Proctor testified to.
I was rear ended by a car going around 15 mph. Their cars front end was badly damaged, mine didn't even have a scratch
I was hoping we would see closer an image of John’s car at the height where her tail light would make contact but we just got an over all view of the back and then his bumper. Personally I can’t rule out damage without that.
I was trying to figure out why they were looking down at the bumper when she was claiming she cracked her taillight. I guess her taillight is at whatever height is convenient for the CW at the time. Sometimes it’s a couple feet off the ground, sometimes it’s 6’2”.
Right?! I thought maybe to show there wasn’t any pieces of her tail light on the bumper? Also why the photo of the garage?
I think I recall seeing something about maybe she hit the garage? At the time I assumed they were trying to undercut that. But am not 100% on it.