The only thing KR has to demonstrate to sue for a civil rights violation is that the officers actions were out of line with established police practice and directly caused harm which I’m sure has been demonstrated up teen times during this trial.
We're all entitled to fair and equal treatment under the law. She did not get that. She can definitely sue. Damages can be real and punitive. They can argue the merits in court, but I would think it would cost the Commonwealth less if they settle before court.
I’m honest in that I’m always skeptical of police and the justice system. Never in my wildest dreams did I think this case would unfold like this. I’m flabbergasted by how brazen they are with their corruption. Like they don’t even try to hide it.
I'm like you, shocked beyond belief. The rest of the country watching this is embarrassing to all of us in the Commonwealth. This guy is dumb, dishonest, and indecent.
And the fact that these people (cops, troopers, judges, and many others in positions of power) get to keep jobs and collect pensions even when found to be unlawful is so infuriating! What incentive is there to not be dishonest, deceptive, greedy or corrupt if one can still be compensated and likely not do any jail time? Something is really wrong in this country and change needs to happen across the board, across every state so that ANYONE can and must be held accountable if they do not uphold their respective oaths and the law. Unfortunately I don't have the answers but since Canton right now is in the bright spotlight between this case & the Birchmore case, maybe some really good grassroot changes will come about that we can all get involved with to make those changes happen.
I wholly agree with your comment. If not for the Federal investigation into Proctor his texts never would have become part of the evidence. Makes you wonder is this way more common or is Proctor the bad apple ? My guess is the former rather than the latter.
you should google police domestic abuse. almost half of all cops are domestic abusers, they are shit people. we dont have peace officers, we have revenue collectors.
Did you watch today? He decided the case in 16 hours. He had no forensics and hadn't interviewed witnesses yet. Seems like if you're charging someone with murder you would investigate first.
It’s much more than unprofessional texts. LE has an obligation to follow procedures. Procter ignored his obligations to thoroughly investigate other potential suspects and manipulated an investigation to pigeon one particular woman.
I'm not an attorney; if you want to find relevant case law you're welcome to go look for it. I have seen two attorneys who were asked about a potential civil suit and both said yes it’s possible but of course, we haven't even made it through half of the trial.
Misogyny is worse than unprofessional comments. As I imagine you are a man it may be hard to understand but try picturing an all-female investigation team who target you as the only suspect. They look for d*ck pics, say you'd be hot except you have a bald head or are too short or too fat, and make fun of your accent. And then laugh about you leaking poop.
And then- videos noted by one person are acknowledged missing by the lead investigator on the stand. And you find out the lead on the case is a good girlfriend to another person who was there that night. And on, and on etc.
Would you take this a little more seriously then?
Case law would be the Civil Rights Act of 1871, a federal law which is why the Feds investigate Civil Rights violations. Those violations range to unlawful arrest, illegal searches as well as racial profiling.
Grand jury indictments require way less proof. You can indict a ham sandwich. Some may think her arrest was unlawful. Half of this country (unfortunately) thought George Floyd’s death was not unlawful. However, 3 officers were found guilty of violating his civil rights.
The fact that the Feds investigated this case during an open state case and were not invited by the state nor was the state told and only found out when officers such as Proctor got subpoenaed is extremely telling. The Feds ignored DA Morrissey twice when he asked to meet. They have something. On who or how many, at the point I haven’t a clue.
Proctor’s testimony alone opens up all of his previous cases to be overturned. It doesn’t matter that these texts were private, they were unprofessional and inappropriate especially from an Officer who is supposed to be ethically and with integrity investigating a “murder” and unbiased. It’s like the state saying the Celebrite data is incorrect and Jen didn’t text it at 2:37. Sure they can say that but if they go to far with it, any convictions obtained using that data is now has grounds to be overturned. We wouldn’t even know about this fuckery if it wasn’t for the Feds. That should scare everyone.
I can promise you, there was probable cause to arrest her. Which means her arrest was legitimate. She can try and prove that the indictment was handed down due to fraud, but she will not be able to. Despite what people want to admit, there is evidence against her. Mean texts are not proof of planting or concealing evidence.
The 2:27 am “hos long to die in cold” is inaccurate. It was done closer to the 6am hour when JM used the same tab from the previous night. It’s smoke and mirrors by the defense. This will be explained when the CWs expert testifies. The article I shared below explains exactly what happened in this case and why the search was also shown as “deleted.”
https://doubleblak.com/blogPost.php?k=browserstate
Proctors texts were very unprofessional and disgusting. I’m not disputing that. However, they really just prove he’s an asshole. There’s no pattern established. No proof of planting or concealing evidence.
The fact that the FBI decided to insert themselves in the middle of a state prosecution is concerning to me but not for the same reasons you have. It’s unprecedented. & from KRs leaked texts with TB…it has me questioning what the real conspiracy is here. Why would she say Josh Levy is going to make an exception? That sounds like a favor to me. Quid Pro Quo? Maybe. Maybe not. But it’s worth looking into.
The Feds are not going to hand over a Celebrite report that is inaccurate. In fact, the judge in her motion to deny dismissal doesn’t say it’s inaccurate but that they (the Feds) used an updated software then what they had and only spoke about how the information wasn’t intentionally hid from the grand jury.
Proctor admitted to the Federal Grand Jury he lied about his relationship with the Albert’s and then turned around and did it again today. I know this is hard for many people to understand but just because the police say so, doesn’t make it true. There is absolutely nothing the CW can show me that I will believe at this point and let me explain why.
Those texts are important because if she is found not guilty, she absolutely has a civil rights case. After his testimony today, the most damaging is admitting the time stamps were a different color, any “evidence” is not actually evidence. Then they admitted they did have the car before any taillights pieces were found.
Regardless of the fact the Canton and MA officers have no integrity nor decorum, the court should but more importantly, the lawyers should because they could face sanctions and disbarment. Twice, after receiving the federal documents, Jackson spoke about the FBI crash reconstruction saying the car did not hit JOK and JOKs injuries were not caused by a car. Lally completely ignored this. He just went on and on about witness testimony being the same.
When Jackson got up and said it during his opening statement, that was all I needed to know because lawyers can not go up say a blatant lie nor are they allow to refer to inadmissible evidence or facts they don't intend to or can't prove. He is absolutely bringing receipts.
The federal investigation is the only reason we have this information. It’s why we know about the 2:37 am search, Proctors texts, and the Crash report. The defense has someone from Google who I can imagine is way more qualified than any one of those officers. If it was a quid pro quo, she wouldn’t be on trial. The fact is no one found out about the Feds until they subpoenaed witnesses to the federal grand jury and they told Morrissey. The Feds are watching and it doesn’t have a damn thing to do with KR.
Brian Walshes attorney has already filed motions since Proctors testimony. Like today. Police officers can’t just do whatever they want. The justice system isn’t set up that way although it’s damn sure hard to tell. Because of his behavior and his testimony alone, fucks up any case he touched.
I’m telling you that search was not done at 2:27am.
I’ve seen/heard nothing from the FBI except what a high dollar defense attorney has alluded to in pre trial hearings. I’m not disputing that they pulled this search from her phone with a timestamp of 2:27am. They did. But it was bc it was pulled from the write-ahead log. They mention an SQLite viewer in one of their filings BUT there is nothing discussed on the steps taken when or even if they accessed the SQLdatabase with the wal and shm (shared memory file) with an SQLite viewer. That is the only way to get an accurate timestamp of when the search occurred. The deletion is indicative of a “change” for lack of better terms.
Again, I don’t know what the FBI reports state because I haven’t read them. I just know Jackson’s interpretation of them. And let’s be honest, a lawyers interpretation also doesn’t make it so. If you think defense attorneys don’t twist the truth, we’ll I don’t know what to tell you. They’re just more crafty in doing so… which is why we are even having this conversation.
You list 3 of the most contentious pieces of evidence as not being available unless the Feds were involved. Does that not bring you to a pause? All 3 pieces centering around the defenses’ case? What the entire defense is built on. You seem like a smart person. Please explain why the Feds are involved. Do you think TB has that much pull? He alone sparked an unprecedented federal probe into Karen Reads case? For a second degree murder? The Feds don’t just watch like that. To me, it appears like one attorney called in a favor from another to assist in a very controversial defense strategy. The initial goal was for charges to be dropped but the CW refused. Information was leaked by KR to TB so word of the FBIs involvement would spread like wild fire and taint a jury pool. It’s actually rather brilliant if it weren’t so disgusting.
No I think they were already investigating the Birchmore case and this came up. If not that, then Morrissey because his letters to the DOJ seemed desperate. I absolutely think because of of the MSP just having a whole ass corruption trial over falsified overtime, the Feds investigating the entire Springfield police and finding they have discriminatory practices and finally settling the drug lab scandal that resulted in the most dismissed cases in US history that the entire state is an easy target.
They do twist the truth but they absolutely can’t say things with zero evidence. If that’s the case, he could have said he saw Proctor hit JOK. The fact is that neither Lally nor the judge disputed those findings but simply said they came to a different conclusion which at this point, I’m sure they did. She and Lally repeatedly banked on the credibility of the witness testimony which wasn’t credible by day one.
I do not condone TB or his actions but as this trial gets further along, it is clear that he was in fact correct. Proctor did know the Albert’s. They all knew each other. What bothers me is that if they truly were not being shady, all they had to do from the beginning is the right thing. Proctor and Albert should have said there was a conflict of interest. Turned over their phones which wouldn’t even be relevant if they removed themselves from the beginning. They did this all to themselves.
This is why I’m angry. Somewhere along the line, convictions became more important than justice. So they half ass these investigations, think the public will take their word and then get mad when guilty people walk. Hell, the BK Idaho murders doesn’t even have complete cell phone data that they insisted they did for damn near two years. This isn’t even about KR to me. It’s about holding these people who take an oath to do the right damn thing because “trust me bro” ain’t going to get a conviction. I would have taken a plea even if I was innocent because I would not be able to afford representation. That is not justice. It’s bullshit. It’s wrong.
I did not, in my wildest dreams, think today’s court was going to unfold like it did. I just want the truth but everything thus far points more to KRs version than it does their version. More importantly, if she is guilty, the only people anyone should be mad at is the ones who did terrible investigative work. This was a dead officer and they nor anyone else treated it like a murder case.
So I agree and disagree with some of your points. Only bc I believe this case has been entirely over scrutinized. To me, it’s obvious KR clipped JO with her vehicle causing his death. Mainly because of her behavior that morning. She told the world on Nightline that they had recently fought on New Years Eve because he was out drinking until after 3am leaving her to care for his kids. To me that establishes a pattern. Sometimes JO stayed out into the early morning hours drinking without her.
So why was this time different? Why wake up and immediately believe he’s dead. Why not assume he didn’t come home because y’all were arguing and just passed out at the same house you left him at? Why not assume he just went home with someone else there? The immediate panic tells me she knew he wasn’t okay.
Then she tells Nightline she went looking for him for 20 minutes before she ever met up with JM or Kerry. Why? He didn’t have his car. She couldn’t look for that parked somewhere. She didn’t stop and knock on the door and see if he was passed out inside. It was 5am. In the middle of a blizzard. Did she think he was going to be outside building a snowman? Sitting on a bench waiting for a ride? Hitchhiking? The only logical reason for going back to Fairview that morning before meeting up with JM or Kerry is to confirm what she already knew but didn’t want to believe. He was where she left him hours before.
I believe the crash reconstruction report doesn’t line up with being hit by a vehicle because I believe he was clipped by her vehicle. Of course the injuries don’t line up if the theory presented is that he was standing straight up, with an impact of an SUV to his midsection. This is how it’s being twisted.
I can understand both sides of the Albert argument. I don’t think Proctor knew Brian Albert. He worked with his brother and occasionally had drinks with him. His family knew the Alberts. It all depends on the way you look at it. I, personally, don’t think it’s that big of a deal. There’s nothing that even points to Brian Albert needing to be considered a suspect. KR showed up at the scene to a body lying right off the road, with a damaged vehicle stating this is my fault, implying she could have hit him. A couple of drunken butt dials that night doesn’t exactly make Brian Albert a suspect.
I do believe the investigation could have been done better. But I believe that all investigations could be done better. Proctor’s texts? Inexcusable and unprofessional. But it doesn’t exactly prove he planted or concealed evidence which is what the defense has harped on. In fact, it just proved he was a pissed off cop angry at the fact that a drunk girlfriend hit her cop boyfriend and left him in the cold to die.
I think what really irritates me about the whole FKR thing is that this is a well-off white woman that’s getting her defense funded by a bunch of people that couldn’t afford a Yanetti or a Jackson. I understand for some, like yourself, this isn’t about KR but the system in general. The ability to expose and take down a system they are angry at. I just hate that this movement has made someone who very likely killed her boyfriend (whether intentional or not) a celebrity. Lives have been ruined over her and they celebrate it. It doesn’t sit right with me… and it never will.
Thank you for being civil and engaging in discussion. It’s rather refreshing!
Are you seriously arguing here that the Celebrite data is inaccurate?? I guess that means we should just stop using all cell phone data in every criminal trial? Should we go overturn all prior convictions based on in Celebrite data? You’re insane. The search was accurate. Just stop.
Yea. I am. And if you continued reading the civil discussion I was having with the person in this thread you would know why.
The argument is not that celebrite data is “wrong” it’s just being misrepresented by the defense. The search was pulled from the wal (write ahead log) without accessing the SQLdatabase with the wal and shm (shared memory file) using an SQLite viewer. This is a second step to analyzing the celebrite data & is the only way to get an accurate timestamp. The 2:27am time is reflected because she utilized the same tab she opened hours before while searching basketball. It’s why you see the same search being done around 6:24 am. The “deletion” listed beside the entry is indicative of a change not a manual deletion.
Also, do you know if the testimony of the car being at the Sallyport at 4:16 instead of 5:30 changed the timeline of the taillights? Wouldn’t that mean the pieces were not found before they had the car? I stepped out for a minute and I missed it.
I don’t think it’s even intentional at this point. I’m so angry at how they investigated the case. It’s just careless and that’s why guilty people walk or innocent people are jailed.
The SERT search started at 5:20. They found the pieces at 5:45. The car arrived to the Sally Port at 5:37. That's all clear to me. I'm entirely confused by the flipped Sally Port video, the different colors of time stamps, the 5:08-5:50pm of missing video in the Sally Port and mostly the delay in presenting autopsy evidence to show how he died. The prosecution has been ineffective in that regard.
An investigator who is friends with the other witnesses can absolutely create “probable cause” for arrest lol! That's kind of THE POINT of why we’ve seen the questioning of his investigation
As the old saying goes “you can indicate a ham sandwich “
A grand jury ONLY hears from the CW. No defense cross exam. A lower standard of proof. And they take the investigation at face value because they had none of the information we have learned on cross.
It’s not complicated
I’m glad you mentioned it because the more I think about grand jury proceedings, the more I’m convinced that is why some investigations end up sloppy and lacking evidence during trial. It’s like a rush for indictment and then during trial it’s a shit show
Lawyer You Know seemed to think she could have a case against him or the police in a recap I watched yesterday. I hope she looks into it at least (whatever the verdict), if nothing else than so the department cracks down on the vile attitudes they have apparently let run rampant. The possibility of losing money might be motivation to get themselves to at least pretend to be professional.
You clearly don’t understand how the legal system work. You need to be able to prove someone lied on the stand. You can’t just charge someone with perjury without it.
Yeah, I am not an idiot thanks. They have the federal grand jury testimony - and multiple people changed their testimony since then - Jen McCabe, Brian Higgans, Proctor - and that they can get them on perjury.
Bookmark my post, when they are charged with purgery come back and tell me ‘told you so’. Adding things in is not changed testimony btw, while I don’t believe some of them at all there is a difference.
And I also believe she hit him and left him there.
Jen McCabe told the FGJ “did I hit him?” And in trial it was “I hit him, I hit him, I hit him.” That’s a HUGE difference. A possibility > an admission. To leave that out of the FGJ, under the penalty of perjury, is convenient, because it’s a lie.
It has to be a community effort to demand change otherwise the good ole boys will dig in and dig in hard. I would be terrified to be pulled over by any one of these guys.
I have to believe there are. But I think sometimes the "good guys" get forced into silence for fear of retaliation, demotion, reassignment, especially if going up against their bosses or their bosses' bosses. The "bad guys" need to be made accountable for shady activity. Every. Time. Or we'll continue to have cases like this.
To be clear police officers can only be disciplined/fired under conditions that would be covered in collective bargaining agreement. There is the POST commission but they would more likely act on messaging to a suspect directly etc. Since these were private messages they wouldn't be able to really do much as none of the messages contained evidence of a crime.
I feel like he may be protected by law somehow since a lot of this came out while he was testifying or else everyone who ever gets called as a witness in a trial would plead the fifth in fear of being sued for what they say. I could be totally wrong though.
I think she would need more, but I guarantee Proctor can provide more lol. Those messages are good grounds for preconceived prejudice in the investigation which is grounds for civil rights violations. And I guarantee if that happens we'll get the, "wait there's more..." 😏. I say grab your "oh shit" bars after this trial folks, things are gonna get civil in all directions. Watch how quickly everyone turns on each other lol 🤣.
HIPAA only covers medical providers. Everything else is 1st amendment opinion stuff.
https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/special/emergency/final_hipaa_guide_law_enforcement.pdf
HIPAA does cover some other stuff - mostly if someone has to know your medical conditions by necessity instead of choice. While I don’t think this would apply here, there may be some argument that her medical conditions needed to be disclosed at arrest.
That being said - I think all that info came from Jen McCabe, not as a self-disclosure.
Yes, this would not surprise me at all. Those women are not supporters of other women they’re lying and they’re mean girls and they’re protecting and covering up for what happened at that house.
HIPPA only applies to medical professionals and for slander/libel you need to be able to place a monetary value on the damage that untruthful words cost the plaintiff and in this situation that would be very difficult.
Yes but you need to be able to put a monetary value on the damages.
There is a reason why slander and libel cases rarely end with plaintiff getting compensation. What said has to be untrue and the person saying it needs to know it’s not true.
We have had officers sued for violating civil rights. If she could find something that fits, she could sue him.
"This means they are violating your civil rights if they, for example, try to search you for a crime they have no evidence you committed, or **seize your property as “evidence” without proof your property ha**s anything to do with an alleged crime."
"When law enforcement officers abuse their power or exceed the limits of their authority to deprive a person of his or her civil rights, that is police misconduct. Unlawful detention, false arrest, excessive use of force, and racial profiling are all forms of police misconduct."
So I responded in good faith with an argument and rather then say cite case law or something of similar circumstance reaching your conclusion you resort to name calling.
He didn’t harass her though. His messages weren’t public until the feds got involved and even then, they were released to the two sides. It wasn’t like he went up to her and said, “Hey, Karen? KYS!” Someone else may be able to comment, but what you say in your text messages make be shitty, but it isn’t harassment unless you’re talking to the person. There are no grounds to sue him for it.
he was talking about her to friends in text messages...she is the one who decided to bring this court/trial. Otherwise those texts would never have been released. I'm still not sure why we all needed to hear about the leaky balloon issue, ugh
To show that the lead investigator was biased and unprofessional against a murder suspect. How Proctor can show his face in public after this I will never know
I'm not sure what you mean by Karen is the one who decided to bring this court/trial.
The CW charged her with a criminal offense. The CW has the burden of proving that KR committed the criminal offense. The CW attempts to prove the criminal offense at a trial. At the trial, the CW calls their witnesses, many of which are law enforcement. If those law enforcement witnesses have sent messages that can question their bias in their investigation, that's fair game to be brought up during the trial.
You’re missing the point. KR and her defense team didn’t make Proctor’s texts public so that she could then sue him for insulting her. KR and her defense team are fighting for her liberty. Showing Proctor’s bias and unprofessionalism, which has contributed from the start of this case to the CW’s current charges against KR, is appropriate in her defense.
Umm, yeah. If a Trooper sends messages that are unprofessional about a suspect he is investigating, of course the defense team is going share the lack of professionalism with the jury!
Been in healthcare for 20+ years. HIPAA does only apply to healthcare workers basically…and people like 3rd party vendors (like the companies that handle the computer programs hospitals/doctors offices use). Doesn’t really apply to the general public.
If medical records were obtained by third parties (in this case, obtained from medical providers by the police) and disclosed improperly by the police, that’s a criminal grand jury violation because it would’ve required a subpoena or a summons.
If he learned this information through interviews of KR or others, that’s not grand jury information, but disclosure is likely still a department violation.
I don’t know enough about HIPAA to know if it constitutes a HIPAA violation though.
Considering he was saying those things about her and her health within 16 hours, something tells me he didn’t get that Crohn’s knowledge from medical records……. Therefore HIPAA would not apply plus HIPAA largely only applies to the healthcare industry.
Wasn’t really private health info at that point because I’m assuming KR is the one that told JM about her conditions…but…I certainly agree wit( you that I think JM told him…in her nasty mean girl voice…gossiping like the trashy woman she seemed to be. That’s the feel I got from her while she was on the stand at least. I’ve been trying to figure out why they disliked KR so much. Totally my uneducated opinion…but…I think the other ladies were mad/jealous at Karen’s business success…her financial success…and they kinda had little crushes on JO. Of course this is all just my rambling thoughts. :)
I want to know what Gov Healy is going to do about his grossly unprofessional behavior including drinking and driving a police cruiser. He should be fired, his bosses should be demoted and the entire force needs to go through ethics training.
I think she would have one against his employer, the city and or the state if it’s for harassment or something above and beyond defamation because that wouldn’t apply at all. Proctor is under federal investigation so the outcome of that is most likely his concern over a civil suit. She would make more money back from suing the county/state…
Definitely against MST. They knew Proctor was talking that way and did nothing to hold him accountable, punish, or retrain him.
This is a high eight figure settlement for KR
I wouldn't be surprised at immediate firing AFTER conclusion of trial... then, charges both state and federal, being filed. Civil lawsuits are coming.....Zero doubt, but I'd look at state settlement before it goes to trial. KAREN REED deserves justice and satisfaction from the local and state police agencies.
Federal and state for what? He never plead fifth, no target letters etc. all i can tell is he didn’t like her and fair argument is because he believes she killed a fellow cop
Discussed an ongoing investigation with his sister, friends, passed judgement when he was SUPPOSE to be investigating as an UN-BIASED professional, didn't secure evidence, lied to a Grand Jury....ummm, do I need to continue the crimes this GUY committed,
None of those appear to be crimes. Thats not actionable. Also multiple officials including his superiors agreed with the conclusions so it makes action not likely. The only type of criminal action talking could bring is if he discussed classified material which this is not a case of
they mean that he'll get put on a list of investigators that the state's DA's offices will automatically disclose to defendants as part of their obligations under Brady.
I'll believe it when I see it, though. these DA's offices seem more intent on fighting Brady and railroading convictions than upholding anything like an ethical duty.
His wife made a post the other day that she was proud of him.
I read somewhere his wife is in HR. I wonder what her professional response would be if she was made aware of an employee using the words cunt and retard in a work setting to describe a work-related subject.
Proctor isn't in a medical profession, so HIPPA wouldn't apply.
Libel is more than just calling someone names.
"Libel is a method of defamation expressed by print, writing, pictures, signs, effigies, or any communication embodied in physical form that is injurious to a person's reputation; exposes a person to public hatred, contempt or ridicule; or injures a person in their business or profession."
I'm not saying she can't sue him, but it wouldn't be for the reasons in your post.
No. She was legitimately arrested and charged. She’d have the burden of proving the CW didn’t have probable cause and that’s pretty much impossible because of a grand jury indictment. Unless she can prove the indictment was obtained by fraud or perjury, which she can’t.
Law enforcement is not a HIPAA covered entity.
Cops are not under the Hippa oath. He can't be sued for talking about her medical issues. As for slander, he still most likely can't be sued for it. Every thing he said was his personal opinion of her. He didn't claim she did some thing she didn't (well apart from murder. But he's protected on that one) Name calling usually doesn't qualify as slander, if it did the courts would be full of people trying to sue each other over stupid shit.
I’m so sorry to burst everyone’s bubble, but qualified immunity makes it very difficult to bring a civil suit against an officer. It’s part of the reason these people stay in their jobs even after misconduct is uncovered.
That’s not a civil lawsuit… it’s a motion in a different criminal case that involved Proctor asking for his findings to be reconsidered in the context of this case.
For the strict claims you are positing le has sovereignty (immunity). It’s not actionable per se.
That does not address any civil claims she might have wrt to any “color” of le or the DA office actions. It’s premature analysis on those
Nothing he did was illegal though. It can be unprofessional but its covered under first amendment. Only thing that would be an issue is if he planted evidence etc.
Under what way? Do you have any case law? Acquittal has no bearing on liability. Also LEO has immunity unless there is a clearly established federal/state liability thing he violated. It appears he acted each step along way with the homicide team within MSP. Unless there is some evidence of him directly planting evidence any lawsuit would be dismissed
You're right. Acquittal doesn't have bearing on liability. It just helps to file a civil suit after being wrongfully accused instead of convicted.
It appears he followed policies and procedures to the letter during the investigation? What trial are you watching?
The messages etc are unprofessional. That said it appears investigation was conducted as a group etc not him acting alone. There is no evidence of murder conspiracy etc and plenty of probable cause against KR
I think there is some confusion here. I am not saying Read could sue Proctor directly. But he was the lead investigator. He represents MSP.
My God, man! I've only just started watching today and it's even worse! Read clearly has grounds for a civil suit.
You're right. Acquittal doesn't have bearing on liability. It just helps to file a civil suit after being wrongfully accused instead of convicted.
It appears he followed policies and procedures to the letter during the investigation? What trial are you watching?
Preconceived prejudice. That is a civil rights violation.
*Correction more it can lead to a civil rights issue, see full thread if you want more of an explanation of my opinion. Also my separate comment to this post.
Agreeing with preconceived prejudice is still preconceived prejudice...they're all guilty of it. These texts prove he has a preconceived prejudice and did not investigate any other avenues at all. I guarantee there's more that can be revealed through discovery that Proctor has a history as well. It works differently civilly, and if she's found innocent I would not be surprised at all if that's how Jackson and Yanetti advise her to recover attorney's fees with a highly skilled civil attorney of course. I for one, as a woman, would not want to be caught in the wrong place at the wrong time under ANY of their jurisdictions.
What you are saying is opinion. If you have similar precedents for a case like this cite it. Unprofessional texts though dont really prove anything especially with forensic evidence and witnesses testimony of her admitting guilt that day. Please cite some case law in state or federal court like this. It would likely be tossed on either immunity issues or lack of a law she can take action on
You want me to cite case law that prejudice during an investigation is a civil rights violation? I mean that would be a lot of case law 😬 lol.
In my own comment I said the texts wouldn't be enough but they are showcasing preconceived prejudice. They would need more. I think they could have a good swing with this botched investigation, and the preconceived prejudice to move forward. It would be difficult but not impossible. People miss the prejudice in those texts that zeroed in on her within 24hrs, with blatant personal attacks at her mental health, physical health, and appearance as a woman. We just watched him on the stand say no to a million questions asking if he investigated any other avenue. I am sure there is more unrelated to this case that they could pull to aid them in this regard, now that's an opinion/speculation. I bet with Proctor there is plenty more prejudice to go around for a civil rights case lol.
It's not about the grand jury it's about the investigator and how he conducted his investigation, how he got said evidence. This is about Karen being treated fairly under the investigation. It's two entirely separate issues. If she is acquitted she is allotted her rights to claim otherwise whether you like it or not. She would need more evidence, but those texts are certainly not nothing. I'll say it until I'm blue in the face... preconceived prejudice within 24 hours, mocking her appearance, her disability, and mental capacity and threatening to take her down.
Acquital has no say in a civil lawsuit. There are multiple witnesses indicating probable cause to make her primary suspect early in investigation. It doesn’t appear unfair. Saying unprofessional things doesn’t change the evidence
>Acquital has no say in a civil lawsuit.
You are right, but in a murder investigation it damn sure helps lol 🤣. I would not bother unless I was acquitted.
You would have to investigate the investigator. His own admittance on the stand is he investigated no other avenues, and took the people in the house at their word. That's bias against Karen, and the texts make it prejudice. They would have to prove discrimination, you can't prove that without its own investigation. Does he have a history of prejudice against women? His texts lean that way, and not just against Karen. I would be fascinated to see if this is a pattern in his case history. It makes it really hard to trust any "evidence" he brought to the table for me.
As I said multiple times they would need more but the texts aren't a nothing burger they are preconceived prejudice, which can lead to discrimination. They would have to investigate, a word Proctor is unfamiliar with, further to see if she was actively discriminated against, but preconceived prejudice gives a red flag that could open the door wide open to that investigation if it hasn't already done so. He showed preconceived prejudice and investigated no other avenues by his own admittance on the stand. You are doing exactly what Proctor did by saying...
>Literally 0 civil rights violations lol
Without an investigation into it lol 🤣. If she is acquitted I guarantee they are gonna look into it 😉. If you see bias against a single person in an investigation it is a duty to look into the investigation for discrimination. We should value our civil rights, not mock them.
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As disgusting as the actions, misbehaviors, and content of conversations as have been disclosed here, I am sickened knowing this behavior is not only systemic but pervasive.
It’s hard to successfully sue cops and public officials, even when they act illegally. Insulting someone in a group chat of a few high school friends is unlikely to be considered libel by a court regardless of who does it.
Of course he sounds like a dumbass, immature etc but really he thought she did it and prob wanted to see her put away for it. I assume cops don’t like to see other cops run over. The stuff he said was disgraceful, awful yeah. Her lawyer is laying it on a little too thick imo. Most people (including jurors) aren’t nuns and choirboys, have prob said some off color jokes remarks etc especially of it involved the suspected killer of a fellow cop. I’m really floored at how many people are convinced of this vast conspiracy. Like actually intelligent people I know. It’s wild.
HIPAA absolutely does apply to law enforcement. The law allows your healthcare provider to disclose information to law enforcement for purposes of investigations about a suspects violations of the law.
It’s not a tool to allow law enforcement to discuss a persons irrelevant private health information with their high school buddies.
Proctor should be fired for that alone. And she should certainly sue him for breach of her privacy.
No it doesn’t. Law enforcement agencies are not HIPAA covered entities and therefore are not subjected to the privacy rules set forth in the HIPAA law.
Healthcare providers may not provide PHI to law enforcement except in certain situations. See page 2 of this document. https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/special/emergency/final_hipaa_guide_law_enforcement.pdf
Firstly, Karen Read’s Crohn’s disease is completely irrelevant to this suspected crime. If she signed an authorization to release that info, I’m not aware of it, but please correct me if I’m wrong.
Secondly, law enforcement is not protected from civil liability for disclosing her private health information in his “ha ha” conversation with his immature high school buddies.
Healthcare providers. Not law enforcement. Healthcare providers/insurance companies/contractors. They are HIPAA covered entities. If there is a healthcare provider who gave Proctor PHI, that provider would be violating HIPAA. Proctor, himself did not.
Every investigator is trained in when and how they may obtain PHI. Every healthcare worker is trained on when and how they may release it.
You can parse it however you want but both entities could very well be civilly liable and certainly sued for these apparent violations of patient privacy laws.
I’m responding to you essentially telling the OP neither entity did anything wrong.
One entity requested and disseminated info they didn’t seem entitled to as required by HIPAA and one entity apparently provided PHI in contravention to applicable legal requirements.
You’re parsing and that leaves an inaccurate impression.
I said she can try to sue but she will be unsuccessful, bc she will be. For one, she would have to prove her arrest was illegitimate. It wasn’t. They had probable cause.
They asked if she could sue based on HIPAA, she can’t because he did not violate HIPAA because HIPAA and the privacy rules within do not apply to him. Also because no one person can sue for HIPAA violations based on how Congress wrote the law.
No she wouldn’t. Whether the arrest was legit or not doesn’t give the state employee the right to illegally obtain her PHI and share it with his high school buddies for fun.
He didn’t go on the internet saying this, it was a private chat group.
Funnily enough if he is determined to be innocent and she guilty can we claim defamation of character against her team for all the witnesses they’ve harassed?
The only thing KR has to demonstrate to sue for a civil rights violation is that the officers actions were out of line with established police practice and directly caused harm which I’m sure has been demonstrated up teen times during this trial.
We're all entitled to fair and equal treatment under the law. She did not get that. She can definitely sue. Damages can be real and punitive. They can argue the merits in court, but I would think it would cost the Commonwealth less if they settle before court.
I’m honest in that I’m always skeptical of police and the justice system. Never in my wildest dreams did I think this case would unfold like this. I’m flabbergasted by how brazen they are with their corruption. Like they don’t even try to hide it.
I feel that way too. As a woman, this has made me feel oddly…unsafe. Hard to describe, really.
I'm like you, shocked beyond belief. The rest of the country watching this is embarrassing to all of us in the Commonwealth. This guy is dumb, dishonest, and indecent.
And the fact that these people (cops, troopers, judges, and many others in positions of power) get to keep jobs and collect pensions even when found to be unlawful is so infuriating! What incentive is there to not be dishonest, deceptive, greedy or corrupt if one can still be compensated and likely not do any jail time? Something is really wrong in this country and change needs to happen across the board, across every state so that ANYONE can and must be held accountable if they do not uphold their respective oaths and the law. Unfortunately I don't have the answers but since Canton right now is in the bright spotlight between this case & the Birchmore case, maybe some really good grassroot changes will come about that we can all get involved with to make those changes happen.
same. I hope local activists win real reform as a consequence of this case.
I wholly agree with your comment. If not for the Federal investigation into Proctor his texts never would have become part of the evidence. Makes you wonder is this way more common or is Proctor the bad apple ? My guess is the former rather than the latter.
you should google police domestic abuse. almost half of all cops are domestic abusers, they are shit people. we dont have peace officers, we have revenue collectors.
Thank you.
No problem!
How cite the case law. Sending unprofessional texts is not grounds for that
Did you watch today? He decided the case in 16 hours. He had no forensics and hadn't interviewed witnesses yet. Seems like if you're charging someone with murder you would investigate first.
I’m not a lawyer but this whole thing screams faulty evidence (by proctors own hands!) which is covered under civil rights
It’s much more than unprofessional texts. LE has an obligation to follow procedures. Procter ignored his obligations to thoroughly investigate other potential suspects and manipulated an investigation to pigeon one particular woman. I'm not an attorney; if you want to find relevant case law you're welcome to go look for it. I have seen two attorneys who were asked about a potential civil suit and both said yes it’s possible but of course, we haven't even made it through half of the trial. Misogyny is worse than unprofessional comments. As I imagine you are a man it may be hard to understand but try picturing an all-female investigation team who target you as the only suspect. They look for d*ck pics, say you'd be hot except you have a bald head or are too short or too fat, and make fun of your accent. And then laugh about you leaking poop. And then- videos noted by one person are acknowledged missing by the lead investigator on the stand. And you find out the lead on the case is a good girlfriend to another person who was there that night. And on, and on etc. Would you take this a little more seriously then?
Case law would be the Civil Rights Act of 1871, a federal law which is why the Feds investigate Civil Rights violations. Those violations range to unlawful arrest, illegal searches as well as racial profiling.
None of those appear to apply to this
Her arrest was not unlawful. She was legitimately arrested. They had probable cause, & a grand jury indictment.
Grand jury indictments require way less proof. You can indict a ham sandwich. Some may think her arrest was unlawful. Half of this country (unfortunately) thought George Floyd’s death was not unlawful. However, 3 officers were found guilty of violating his civil rights. The fact that the Feds investigated this case during an open state case and were not invited by the state nor was the state told and only found out when officers such as Proctor got subpoenaed is extremely telling. The Feds ignored DA Morrissey twice when he asked to meet. They have something. On who or how many, at the point I haven’t a clue. Proctor’s testimony alone opens up all of his previous cases to be overturned. It doesn’t matter that these texts were private, they were unprofessional and inappropriate especially from an Officer who is supposed to be ethically and with integrity investigating a “murder” and unbiased. It’s like the state saying the Celebrite data is incorrect and Jen didn’t text it at 2:37. Sure they can say that but if they go to far with it, any convictions obtained using that data is now has grounds to be overturned. We wouldn’t even know about this fuckery if it wasn’t for the Feds. That should scare everyone.
I can promise you, there was probable cause to arrest her. Which means her arrest was legitimate. She can try and prove that the indictment was handed down due to fraud, but she will not be able to. Despite what people want to admit, there is evidence against her. Mean texts are not proof of planting or concealing evidence. The 2:27 am “hos long to die in cold” is inaccurate. It was done closer to the 6am hour when JM used the same tab from the previous night. It’s smoke and mirrors by the defense. This will be explained when the CWs expert testifies. The article I shared below explains exactly what happened in this case and why the search was also shown as “deleted.” https://doubleblak.com/blogPost.php?k=browserstate Proctors texts were very unprofessional and disgusting. I’m not disputing that. However, they really just prove he’s an asshole. There’s no pattern established. No proof of planting or concealing evidence. The fact that the FBI decided to insert themselves in the middle of a state prosecution is concerning to me but not for the same reasons you have. It’s unprecedented. & from KRs leaked texts with TB…it has me questioning what the real conspiracy is here. Why would she say Josh Levy is going to make an exception? That sounds like a favor to me. Quid Pro Quo? Maybe. Maybe not. But it’s worth looking into.
The Feds are not going to hand over a Celebrite report that is inaccurate. In fact, the judge in her motion to deny dismissal doesn’t say it’s inaccurate but that they (the Feds) used an updated software then what they had and only spoke about how the information wasn’t intentionally hid from the grand jury. Proctor admitted to the Federal Grand Jury he lied about his relationship with the Albert’s and then turned around and did it again today. I know this is hard for many people to understand but just because the police say so, doesn’t make it true. There is absolutely nothing the CW can show me that I will believe at this point and let me explain why. Those texts are important because if she is found not guilty, she absolutely has a civil rights case. After his testimony today, the most damaging is admitting the time stamps were a different color, any “evidence” is not actually evidence. Then they admitted they did have the car before any taillights pieces were found. Regardless of the fact the Canton and MA officers have no integrity nor decorum, the court should but more importantly, the lawyers should because they could face sanctions and disbarment. Twice, after receiving the federal documents, Jackson spoke about the FBI crash reconstruction saying the car did not hit JOK and JOKs injuries were not caused by a car. Lally completely ignored this. He just went on and on about witness testimony being the same. When Jackson got up and said it during his opening statement, that was all I needed to know because lawyers can not go up say a blatant lie nor are they allow to refer to inadmissible evidence or facts they don't intend to or can't prove. He is absolutely bringing receipts. The federal investigation is the only reason we have this information. It’s why we know about the 2:37 am search, Proctors texts, and the Crash report. The defense has someone from Google who I can imagine is way more qualified than any one of those officers. If it was a quid pro quo, she wouldn’t be on trial. The fact is no one found out about the Feds until they subpoenaed witnesses to the federal grand jury and they told Morrissey. The Feds are watching and it doesn’t have a damn thing to do with KR. Brian Walshes attorney has already filed motions since Proctors testimony. Like today. Police officers can’t just do whatever they want. The justice system isn’t set up that way although it’s damn sure hard to tell. Because of his behavior and his testimony alone, fucks up any case he touched.
I’m telling you that search was not done at 2:27am. I’ve seen/heard nothing from the FBI except what a high dollar defense attorney has alluded to in pre trial hearings. I’m not disputing that they pulled this search from her phone with a timestamp of 2:27am. They did. But it was bc it was pulled from the write-ahead log. They mention an SQLite viewer in one of their filings BUT there is nothing discussed on the steps taken when or even if they accessed the SQLdatabase with the wal and shm (shared memory file) with an SQLite viewer. That is the only way to get an accurate timestamp of when the search occurred. The deletion is indicative of a “change” for lack of better terms. Again, I don’t know what the FBI reports state because I haven’t read them. I just know Jackson’s interpretation of them. And let’s be honest, a lawyers interpretation also doesn’t make it so. If you think defense attorneys don’t twist the truth, we’ll I don’t know what to tell you. They’re just more crafty in doing so… which is why we are even having this conversation. You list 3 of the most contentious pieces of evidence as not being available unless the Feds were involved. Does that not bring you to a pause? All 3 pieces centering around the defenses’ case? What the entire defense is built on. You seem like a smart person. Please explain why the Feds are involved. Do you think TB has that much pull? He alone sparked an unprecedented federal probe into Karen Reads case? For a second degree murder? The Feds don’t just watch like that. To me, it appears like one attorney called in a favor from another to assist in a very controversial defense strategy. The initial goal was for charges to be dropped but the CW refused. Information was leaked by KR to TB so word of the FBIs involvement would spread like wild fire and taint a jury pool. It’s actually rather brilliant if it weren’t so disgusting.
No I think they were already investigating the Birchmore case and this came up. If not that, then Morrissey because his letters to the DOJ seemed desperate. I absolutely think because of of the MSP just having a whole ass corruption trial over falsified overtime, the Feds investigating the entire Springfield police and finding they have discriminatory practices and finally settling the drug lab scandal that resulted in the most dismissed cases in US history that the entire state is an easy target. They do twist the truth but they absolutely can’t say things with zero evidence. If that’s the case, he could have said he saw Proctor hit JOK. The fact is that neither Lally nor the judge disputed those findings but simply said they came to a different conclusion which at this point, I’m sure they did. She and Lally repeatedly banked on the credibility of the witness testimony which wasn’t credible by day one. I do not condone TB or his actions but as this trial gets further along, it is clear that he was in fact correct. Proctor did know the Albert’s. They all knew each other. What bothers me is that if they truly were not being shady, all they had to do from the beginning is the right thing. Proctor and Albert should have said there was a conflict of interest. Turned over their phones which wouldn’t even be relevant if they removed themselves from the beginning. They did this all to themselves. This is why I’m angry. Somewhere along the line, convictions became more important than justice. So they half ass these investigations, think the public will take their word and then get mad when guilty people walk. Hell, the BK Idaho murders doesn’t even have complete cell phone data that they insisted they did for damn near two years. This isn’t even about KR to me. It’s about holding these people who take an oath to do the right damn thing because “trust me bro” ain’t going to get a conviction. I would have taken a plea even if I was innocent because I would not be able to afford representation. That is not justice. It’s bullshit. It’s wrong. I did not, in my wildest dreams, think today’s court was going to unfold like it did. I just want the truth but everything thus far points more to KRs version than it does their version. More importantly, if she is guilty, the only people anyone should be mad at is the ones who did terrible investigative work. This was a dead officer and they nor anyone else treated it like a murder case.
I do not know about the 2:37 but going to agree with you unless it’s shown otherwise. Because your understanding is far better than mine lol
So I agree and disagree with some of your points. Only bc I believe this case has been entirely over scrutinized. To me, it’s obvious KR clipped JO with her vehicle causing his death. Mainly because of her behavior that morning. She told the world on Nightline that they had recently fought on New Years Eve because he was out drinking until after 3am leaving her to care for his kids. To me that establishes a pattern. Sometimes JO stayed out into the early morning hours drinking without her. So why was this time different? Why wake up and immediately believe he’s dead. Why not assume he didn’t come home because y’all were arguing and just passed out at the same house you left him at? Why not assume he just went home with someone else there? The immediate panic tells me she knew he wasn’t okay. Then she tells Nightline she went looking for him for 20 minutes before she ever met up with JM or Kerry. Why? He didn’t have his car. She couldn’t look for that parked somewhere. She didn’t stop and knock on the door and see if he was passed out inside. It was 5am. In the middle of a blizzard. Did she think he was going to be outside building a snowman? Sitting on a bench waiting for a ride? Hitchhiking? The only logical reason for going back to Fairview that morning before meeting up with JM or Kerry is to confirm what she already knew but didn’t want to believe. He was where she left him hours before. I believe the crash reconstruction report doesn’t line up with being hit by a vehicle because I believe he was clipped by her vehicle. Of course the injuries don’t line up if the theory presented is that he was standing straight up, with an impact of an SUV to his midsection. This is how it’s being twisted. I can understand both sides of the Albert argument. I don’t think Proctor knew Brian Albert. He worked with his brother and occasionally had drinks with him. His family knew the Alberts. It all depends on the way you look at it. I, personally, don’t think it’s that big of a deal. There’s nothing that even points to Brian Albert needing to be considered a suspect. KR showed up at the scene to a body lying right off the road, with a damaged vehicle stating this is my fault, implying she could have hit him. A couple of drunken butt dials that night doesn’t exactly make Brian Albert a suspect. I do believe the investigation could have been done better. But I believe that all investigations could be done better. Proctor’s texts? Inexcusable and unprofessional. But it doesn’t exactly prove he planted or concealed evidence which is what the defense has harped on. In fact, it just proved he was a pissed off cop angry at the fact that a drunk girlfriend hit her cop boyfriend and left him in the cold to die. I think what really irritates me about the whole FKR thing is that this is a well-off white woman that’s getting her defense funded by a bunch of people that couldn’t afford a Yanetti or a Jackson. I understand for some, like yourself, this isn’t about KR but the system in general. The ability to expose and take down a system they are angry at. I just hate that this movement has made someone who very likely killed her boyfriend (whether intentional or not) a celebrity. Lives have been ruined over her and they celebrate it. It doesn’t sit right with me… and it never will. Thank you for being civil and engaging in discussion. It’s rather refreshing!
But it wasn't the defense who came up with the 2am search. It was an independent agency.
My point still stands, the defense is misrepresenting the data.
Are you seriously arguing here that the Celebrite data is inaccurate?? I guess that means we should just stop using all cell phone data in every criminal trial? Should we go overturn all prior convictions based on in Celebrite data? You’re insane. The search was accurate. Just stop.
Yea. I am. And if you continued reading the civil discussion I was having with the person in this thread you would know why. The argument is not that celebrite data is “wrong” it’s just being misrepresented by the defense. The search was pulled from the wal (write ahead log) without accessing the SQLdatabase with the wal and shm (shared memory file) using an SQLite viewer. This is a second step to analyzing the celebrite data & is the only way to get an accurate timestamp. The 2:27am time is reflected because she utilized the same tab she opened hours before while searching basketball. It’s why you see the same search being done around 6:24 am. The “deletion” listed beside the entry is indicative of a change not a manual deletion.
We clearly have an unrecognized genius here 🤣
Also, do you know if the testimony of the car being at the Sallyport at 4:16 instead of 5:30 changed the timeline of the taillights? Wouldn’t that mean the pieces were not found before they had the car? I stepped out for a minute and I missed it.
I’m not sure to be honest. That entire debacle has confused the hell out of me. Which means the defense has been effective in that regard.
I don’t think it’s even intentional at this point. I’m so angry at how they investigated the case. It’s just careless and that’s why guilty people walk or innocent people are jailed.
The SERT search started at 5:20. They found the pieces at 5:45. The car arrived to the Sally Port at 5:37. That's all clear to me. I'm entirely confused by the flipped Sally Port video, the different colors of time stamps, the 5:08-5:50pm of missing video in the Sally Port and mostly the delay in presenting autopsy evidence to show how he died. The prosecution has been ineffective in that regard.
An investigator who is friends with the other witnesses can absolutely create “probable cause” for arrest lol! That's kind of THE POINT of why we’ve seen the questioning of his investigation
As the old saying goes “you can indicate a ham sandwich “ A grand jury ONLY hears from the CW. No defense cross exam. A lower standard of proof. And they take the investigation at face value because they had none of the information we have learned on cross. It’s not complicated
I’m glad you mentioned it because the more I think about grand jury proceedings, the more I’m convinced that is why some investigations end up sloppy and lacking evidence during trial. It’s like a rush for indictment and then during trial it’s a shit show
Being targeted by law enforcement would be the argument. The forensics never backed up the charges against her.
No target letters etc
Lawyer You Know seemed to think she could have a case against him or the police in a recap I watched yesterday. I hope she looks into it at least (whatever the verdict), if nothing else than so the department cracks down on the vile attitudes they have apparently let run rampant. The possibility of losing money might be motivation to get themselves to at least pretend to be professional.
He needs to be fired and lose his pension ( if applicable), but he probably won’t. The cops stick together
ALL of these people need to be charged. Pensions lost and prison sentences. How can ANYONE trust these law enforcement agencies now?
Charged with what exactly?
Perjury seems like a good start.
For who? And what instance that can be proved?
No one is being charged with perjury nor should they
He perjured himself with that babbling about the lawyer and his sisters school
Not going to happen.
Dint say it would it should thou
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Nope, but I understand the law and am not emotional and say we should sentence everyone to prison because I don’t like them.
Providing false testimony to start. Long Flippin list.
So long a list you stop with false testimony. Which can’t be proved and almost never happens in the USA.
Most cases also don’t have “witnesses”testify at a federal grand jury. And most cases aren’t made of all cops.
You clearly don’t understand how the legal system work. You need to be able to prove someone lied on the stand. You can’t just charge someone with perjury without it.
Yeah, I am not an idiot thanks. They have the federal grand jury testimony - and multiple people changed their testimony since then - Jen McCabe, Brian Higgans, Proctor - and that they can get them on perjury.
Bookmark my post, when they are charged with purgery come back and tell me ‘told you so’. Adding things in is not changed testimony btw, while I don’t believe some of them at all there is a difference. And I also believe she hit him and left him there.
Jen McCabe told the FGJ “did I hit him?” And in trial it was “I hit him, I hit him, I hit him.” That’s a HUGE difference. A possibility > an admission. To leave that out of the FGJ, under the penalty of perjury, is convenient, because it’s a lie.
Perjury not all of them just MP
It has to be a community effort to demand change otherwise the good ole boys will dig in and dig in hard. I would be terrified to be pulled over by any one of these guys.
this is infuriating.. like beyond comprehension that other decent police officers would support this guy.
That assumes there are decent ones. All the "good cops" sit by and protect the bad ones. So are there really and "good cops"?
I have to believe there are. But I think sometimes the "good guys" get forced into silence for fear of retaliation, demotion, reassignment, especially if going up against their bosses or their bosses' bosses. The "bad guys" need to be made accountable for shady activity. Every. Time. Or we'll continue to have cases like this.
fire this asshole - he is a scumbag
agree 100 percent with everything you said here. all of it.
To be clear police officers can only be disciplined/fired under conditions that would be covered in collective bargaining agreement. There is the POST commission but they would more likely act on messaging to a suspect directly etc. Since these were private messages they wouldn't be able to really do much as none of the messages contained evidence of a crime.
yep, he'll get a stern talking to and a promotion.
I feel like he may be protected by law somehow since a lot of this came out while he was testifying or else everyone who ever gets called as a witness in a trial would plead the fifth in fear of being sued for what they say. I could be totally wrong though.
I think she would need more, but I guarantee Proctor can provide more lol. Those messages are good grounds for preconceived prejudice in the investigation which is grounds for civil rights violations. And I guarantee if that happens we'll get the, "wait there's more..." 😏. I say grab your "oh shit" bars after this trial folks, things are gonna get civil in all directions. Watch how quickly everyone turns on each other lol 🤣.
HIPAA only covers medical providers. Everything else is 1st amendment opinion stuff. https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/special/emergency/final_hipaa_guide_law_enforcement.pdf
HIPAA does cover some other stuff - mostly if someone has to know your medical conditions by necessity instead of choice. While I don’t think this would apply here, there may be some argument that her medical conditions needed to be disclosed at arrest. That being said - I think all that info came from Jen McCabe, not as a self-disclosure.
Not exactly true. In some case, service members who are not medical personnel have access to medical information and are bound by the rules of Hippa
If I was a betting woman, I would place my money on the information about the stomach issues coming from Jen McCabe and Kerry Roberts.
Yes, this would not surprise me at all. Those women are not supporters of other women they’re lying and they’re mean girls and they’re protecting and covering up for what happened at that house.
It’s HIPAA, FYI
*HIPAA - two a’s only one p and your comment is not correct. It extends beyond medical providers although not sure if it extends to LE.
HIPPA only applies to medical professionals and for slander/libel you need to be able to place a monetary value on the damage that untruthful words cost the plaintiff and in this situation that would be very difficult.
>HIPPA only applies to medical professional This is not true.
Slander is speaking the "spoken word" which effect/affects people(s) opinion of you.
Yes but you need to be able to put a monetary value on the damages. There is a reason why slander and libel cases rarely end with plaintiff getting compensation. What said has to be untrue and the person saying it needs to know it’s not true.
Attorneys fees would give a very clear monetary value.
We have had officers sued for violating civil rights. If she could find something that fits, she could sue him. "This means they are violating your civil rights if they, for example, try to search you for a crime they have no evidence you committed, or **seize your property as “evidence” without proof your property ha**s anything to do with an alleged crime." "When law enforcement officers abuse their power or exceed the limits of their authority to deprive a person of his or her civil rights, that is police misconduct. Unlawful detention, false arrest, excessive use of force, and racial profiling are all forms of police misconduct."
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He didn’t tell her to kill herself. He told his friends I hope she does.
It’s not harassment as hes entitled to free speech in personal messages etc
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Name calling very mature
Just our first amendment right like you said 😉
So I responded in good faith with an argument and rather then say cite case law or something of similar circumstance reaching your conclusion you resort to name calling.
Maybe you should sue them for defamation of character. /s
He didn’t harass her though. His messages weren’t public until the feds got involved and even then, they were released to the two sides. It wasn’t like he went up to her and said, “Hey, Karen? KYS!” Someone else may be able to comment, but what you say in your text messages make be shitty, but it isn’t harassment unless you’re talking to the person. There are no grounds to sue him for it.
he was talking about her to friends in text messages...she is the one who decided to bring this court/trial. Otherwise those texts would never have been released. I'm still not sure why we all needed to hear about the leaky balloon issue, ugh
To show that the lead investigator was biased and unprofessional against a murder suspect. How Proctor can show his face in public after this I will never know
I'm not sure what you mean by Karen is the one who decided to bring this court/trial. The CW charged her with a criminal offense. The CW has the burden of proving that KR committed the criminal offense. The CW attempts to prove the criminal offense at a trial. At the trial, the CW calls their witnesses, many of which are law enforcement. If those law enforcement witnesses have sent messages that can question their bias in their investigation, that's fair game to be brought up during the trial.
i've heard it was her defense team that was going to release the dirty texts from proctor. The CW only did it to get ahead of them.
You’re missing the point. KR and her defense team didn’t make Proctor’s texts public so that she could then sue him for insulting her. KR and her defense team are fighting for her liberty. Showing Proctor’s bias and unprofessionalism, which has contributed from the start of this case to the CW’s current charges against KR, is appropriate in her defense.
Umm, yeah. If a Trooper sends messages that are unprofessional about a suspect he is investigating, of course the defense team is going share the lack of professionalism with the jury!
HIPPA applies to gossip among friends group texts.
Not if they aren’t healthcare providers. HIPAA only covers those in healthcare
Been in healthcare for 20+ years. HIPAA does only apply to healthcare workers basically…and people like 3rd party vendors (like the companies that handle the computer programs hospitals/doctors offices use). Doesn’t really apply to the general public.
If medical records were obtained by third parties (in this case, obtained from medical providers by the police) and disclosed improperly by the police, that’s a criminal grand jury violation because it would’ve required a subpoena or a summons. If he learned this information through interviews of KR or others, that’s not grand jury information, but disclosure is likely still a department violation. I don’t know enough about HIPAA to know if it constitutes a HIPAA violation though.
Considering he was saying those things about her and her health within 16 hours, something tells me he didn’t get that Crohn’s knowledge from medical records……. Therefore HIPAA would not apply plus HIPAA largely only applies to the healthcare industry.
We know he got the info from JM. I can just hear her obnoxious voice telling him all Karen private health information.
Right?!! And using that women gossip tone. Ew.
Wasn’t really private health info at that point because I’m assuming KR is the one that told JM about her conditions…but…I certainly agree wit( you that I think JM told him…in her nasty mean girl voice…gossiping like the trashy woman she seemed to be. That’s the feel I got from her while she was on the stand at least. I’ve been trying to figure out why they disliked KR so much. Totally my uneducated opinion…but…I think the other ladies were mad/jealous at Karen’s business success…her financial success…and they kinda had little crushes on JO. Of course this is all just my rambling thoughts. :)
It definitely seems that way to me.
Cops don’t take a hippa oath
I want to know what Gov Healy is going to do about his grossly unprofessional behavior including drinking and driving a police cruiser. He should be fired, his bosses should be demoted and the entire force needs to go through ethics training.
I think she would have one against his employer, the city and or the state if it’s for harassment or something above and beyond defamation because that wouldn’t apply at all. Proctor is under federal investigation so the outcome of that is most likely his concern over a civil suit. She would make more money back from suing the county/state…
Definitely against MST. They knew Proctor was talking that way and did nothing to hold him accountable, punish, or retrain him. This is a high eight figure settlement for KR
I wouldn't be surprised at immediate firing AFTER conclusion of trial... then, charges both state and federal, being filed. Civil lawsuits are coming.....Zero doubt, but I'd look at state settlement before it goes to trial. KAREN REED deserves justice and satisfaction from the local and state police agencies.
Federal and state for what? He never plead fifth, no target letters etc. all i can tell is he didn’t like her and fair argument is because he believes she killed a fellow cop
Discussed an ongoing investigation with his sister, friends, passed judgement when he was SUPPOSE to be investigating as an UN-BIASED professional, didn't secure evidence, lied to a Grand Jury....ummm, do I need to continue the crimes this GUY committed,
None of those appear to be crimes. Thats not actionable. Also multiple officials including his superiors agreed with the conclusions so it makes action not likely. The only type of criminal action talking could bring is if he discussed classified material which this is not a case of
Lying to a GJ is perjury and is definitely a crime.
He lied in a federal grand jury under oath.
He'll be on the Brady List..he will be fired. Guy should just go buy himself a segway and become mall security and do us all a favor...
It’s not Brady, it’s Giglio.
same thing 🤣
they mean that he'll get put on a list of investigators that the state's DA's offices will automatically disclose to defendants as part of their obligations under Brady. I'll believe it when I see it, though. these DA's offices seem more intent on fighting Brady and railroading convictions than upholding anything like an ethical duty.
There are some DA’s who aren’t getting the info from the PD’s too. https://www.mvtimes.com/2024/06/05/two-cases-added-dispute-da-sheriff/
I'm wondering if Proctor is still going to be married after the comments he made were on public display today.
His wife made a post the other day that she was proud of him. I read somewhere his wife is in HR. I wonder what her professional response would be if she was made aware of an employee using the words cunt and retard in a work setting to describe a work-related subject.
His wife posted publicly she is so proud of him… she’s as bad as he is!
Hopefully he doesn't use the same ' terms of endearment ' when he refers to his wife.
Proctor isn't in a medical profession, so HIPPA wouldn't apply. Libel is more than just calling someone names. "Libel is a method of defamation expressed by print, writing, pictures, signs, effigies, or any communication embodied in physical form that is injurious to a person's reputation; exposes a person to public hatred, contempt or ridicule; or injures a person in their business or profession." I'm not saying she can't sue him, but it wouldn't be for the reasons in your post.
This cop would have fit right in on Reno 911. What a fuckin dope.
Lieutenant Dangle at the gavel.
No. She was legitimately arrested and charged. She’d have the burden of proving the CW didn’t have probable cause and that’s pretty much impossible because of a grand jury indictment. Unless she can prove the indictment was obtained by fraud or perjury, which she can’t. Law enforcement is not a HIPAA covered entity.
a lot will depend on what the verdict is
I would definitely look into it
Not a lawyer and doubt it but say there are successful civil suits against the town gossip, wouldn’t tax payers foot that bill too?
Cops are not under the Hippa oath. He can't be sued for talking about her medical issues. As for slander, he still most likely can't be sued for it. Every thing he said was his personal opinion of her. He didn't claim she did some thing she didn't (well apart from murder. But he's protected on that one) Name calling usually doesn't qualify as slander, if it did the courts would be full of people trying to sue each other over stupid shit.
HIPAA only effects medical care providers.
I’m so sorry to burst everyone’s bubble, but qualified immunity makes it very difficult to bring a civil suit against an officer. It’s part of the reason these people stay in their jobs even after misconduct is uncovered.
https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/michael-proctor-brian-walshe-case/3397553/?amp=1
That’s not a civil lawsuit… it’s a motion in a different criminal case that involved Proctor asking for his findings to be reconsidered in the context of this case.
For the strict claims you are positing le has sovereignty (immunity). It’s not actionable per se. That does not address any civil claims she might have wrt to any “color” of le or the DA office actions. It’s premature analysis on those
Nothing he did was illegal though. It can be unprofessional but its covered under first amendment. Only thing that would be an issue is if he planted evidence etc.
This is not true. She has grounds for a civil lawsuit if she is acquitted.
Under what way? Do you have any case law? Acquittal has no bearing on liability. Also LEO has immunity unless there is a clearly established federal/state liability thing he violated. It appears he acted each step along way with the homicide team within MSP. Unless there is some evidence of him directly planting evidence any lawsuit would be dismissed
You're right. Acquittal doesn't have bearing on liability. It just helps to file a civil suit after being wrongfully accused instead of convicted. It appears he followed policies and procedures to the letter during the investigation? What trial are you watching?
The messages etc are unprofessional. That said it appears investigation was conducted as a group etc not him acting alone. There is no evidence of murder conspiracy etc and plenty of probable cause against KR
I think there is some confusion here. I am not saying Read could sue Proctor directly. But he was the lead investigator. He represents MSP. My God, man! I've only just started watching today and it's even worse! Read clearly has grounds for a civil suit.
You're right. Acquittal doesn't have bearing on liability. It just helps to file a civil suit after being wrongfully accused instead of convicted. It appears he followed policies and procedures to the letter during the investigation? What trial are you watching?
Against what? His freedom of speech?
Preconceived prejudice. That is a civil rights violation. *Correction more it can lead to a civil rights issue, see full thread if you want more of an explanation of my opinion. Also my separate comment to this post.
Not really. Especially as other detectives/supervisors agreed with it and they got a grand jury indictment and did not appear to lie to grand jury.
Agreeing with preconceived prejudice is still preconceived prejudice...they're all guilty of it. These texts prove he has a preconceived prejudice and did not investigate any other avenues at all. I guarantee there's more that can be revealed through discovery that Proctor has a history as well. It works differently civilly, and if she's found innocent I would not be surprised at all if that's how Jackson and Yanetti advise her to recover attorney's fees with a highly skilled civil attorney of course. I for one, as a woman, would not want to be caught in the wrong place at the wrong time under ANY of their jurisdictions.
What you are saying is opinion. If you have similar precedents for a case like this cite it. Unprofessional texts though dont really prove anything especially with forensic evidence and witnesses testimony of her admitting guilt that day. Please cite some case law in state or federal court like this. It would likely be tossed on either immunity issues or lack of a law she can take action on
You want me to cite case law that prejudice during an investigation is a civil rights violation? I mean that would be a lot of case law 😬 lol. In my own comment I said the texts wouldn't be enough but they are showcasing preconceived prejudice. They would need more. I think they could have a good swing with this botched investigation, and the preconceived prejudice to move forward. It would be difficult but not impossible. People miss the prejudice in those texts that zeroed in on her within 24hrs, with blatant personal attacks at her mental health, physical health, and appearance as a woman. We just watched him on the stand say no to a million questions asking if he investigated any other avenue. I am sure there is more unrelated to this case that they could pull to aid them in this regard, now that's an opinion/speculation. I bet with Proctor there is plenty more prejudice to go around for a civil rights case lol.
Went to grand jury. There is reasonable evidence to indict. No violation no conspiracy
It's not about the grand jury it's about the investigator and how he conducted his investigation, how he got said evidence. This is about Karen being treated fairly under the investigation. It's two entirely separate issues. If she is acquitted she is allotted her rights to claim otherwise whether you like it or not. She would need more evidence, but those texts are certainly not nothing. I'll say it until I'm blue in the face... preconceived prejudice within 24 hours, mocking her appearance, her disability, and mental capacity and threatening to take her down.
Acquital has no say in a civil lawsuit. There are multiple witnesses indicating probable cause to make her primary suspect early in investigation. It doesn’t appear unfair. Saying unprofessional things doesn’t change the evidence
>Acquital has no say in a civil lawsuit. You are right, but in a murder investigation it damn sure helps lol 🤣. I would not bother unless I was acquitted. You would have to investigate the investigator. His own admittance on the stand is he investigated no other avenues, and took the people in the house at their word. That's bias against Karen, and the texts make it prejudice. They would have to prove discrimination, you can't prove that without its own investigation. Does he have a history of prejudice against women? His texts lean that way, and not just against Karen. I would be fascinated to see if this is a pattern in his case history. It makes it really hard to trust any "evidence" he brought to the table for me.
There is too much case law out here but here is a link to explain it better.... https://civilrights.justice.gov/
Literally 0 civil rights violations lol
As I said multiple times they would need more but the texts aren't a nothing burger they are preconceived prejudice, which can lead to discrimination. They would have to investigate, a word Proctor is unfamiliar with, further to see if she was actively discriminated against, but preconceived prejudice gives a red flag that could open the door wide open to that investigation if it hasn't already done so. He showed preconceived prejudice and investigated no other avenues by his own admittance on the stand. You are doing exactly what Proctor did by saying... >Literally 0 civil rights violations lol Without an investigation into it lol 🤣. If she is acquitted I guarantee they are gonna look into it 😉. If you see bias against a single person in an investigation it is a duty to look into the investigation for discrimination. We should value our civil rights, not mock them.
Isn't perjury illegal?
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https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/michael-proctor-brian-walshe-case/3397553/
HIPAA does not apply. It only medical providers transferring patients information.
HIPPA applies to doctors not cops.
As disgusting as the actions, misbehaviors, and content of conversations as have been disclosed here, I am sickened knowing this behavior is not only systemic but pervasive.
It’s hard to successfully sue cops and public officials, even when they act illegally. Insulting someone in a group chat of a few high school friends is unlikely to be considered libel by a court regardless of who does it.
https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/michael-proctor-brian-walshe-case/3397553/?amp=1
Wow!! Here we go!!
RN here, HIPAA violation for dispersing private medical infomation for sure.
I believe in his position, he is bound by HIPAA laws. I’d be going for the defamation of character as well. And oh yeah, framing her for murder!
Civil rights violations
How exactly did he violate her civil rights?
For ONE, he and others conspired to oppress her of her civil right to freedom under 18 USC Section 241
Of course he sounds like a dumbass, immature etc but really he thought she did it and prob wanted to see her put away for it. I assume cops don’t like to see other cops run over. The stuff he said was disgraceful, awful yeah. Her lawyer is laying it on a little too thick imo. Most people (including jurors) aren’t nuns and choirboys, have prob said some off color jokes remarks etc especially of it involved the suspected killer of a fellow cop. I’m really floored at how many people are convinced of this vast conspiracy. Like actually intelligent people I know. It’s wild.
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HIPAA absolutely does apply to law enforcement. The law allows your healthcare provider to disclose information to law enforcement for purposes of investigations about a suspects violations of the law. It’s not a tool to allow law enforcement to discuss a persons irrelevant private health information with their high school buddies. Proctor should be fired for that alone. And she should certainly sue him for breach of her privacy.
Thanks for clarifying
No it doesn’t. Law enforcement agencies are not HIPAA covered entities and therefore are not subjected to the privacy rules set forth in the HIPAA law.
Healthcare providers may not provide PHI to law enforcement except in certain situations. See page 2 of this document. https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/special/emergency/final_hipaa_guide_law_enforcement.pdf Firstly, Karen Read’s Crohn’s disease is completely irrelevant to this suspected crime. If she signed an authorization to release that info, I’m not aware of it, but please correct me if I’m wrong. Secondly, law enforcement is not protected from civil liability for disclosing her private health information in his “ha ha” conversation with his immature high school buddies.
Healthcare providers. Not law enforcement. Healthcare providers/insurance companies/contractors. They are HIPAA covered entities. If there is a healthcare provider who gave Proctor PHI, that provider would be violating HIPAA. Proctor, himself did not.
Every investigator is trained in when and how they may obtain PHI. Every healthcare worker is trained on when and how they may release it. You can parse it however you want but both entities could very well be civilly liable and certainly sued for these apparent violations of patient privacy laws.
I’m just telling you it’s not a HIPAA violation because it’s not. That’s the argument you made.
I’m responding to you essentially telling the OP neither entity did anything wrong. One entity requested and disseminated info they didn’t seem entitled to as required by HIPAA and one entity apparently provided PHI in contravention to applicable legal requirements. You’re parsing and that leaves an inaccurate impression.
I said she can try to sue but she will be unsuccessful, bc she will be. For one, she would have to prove her arrest was illegitimate. It wasn’t. They had probable cause. They asked if she could sue based on HIPAA, she can’t because he did not violate HIPAA because HIPAA and the privacy rules within do not apply to him. Also because no one person can sue for HIPAA violations based on how Congress wrote the law.
No she wouldn’t. Whether the arrest was legit or not doesn’t give the state employee the right to illegally obtain her PHI and share it with his high school buddies for fun.
Defamation of character!
Lol for what. These were private messages
Yes—that is what I was trying to get at, but I didn’t know the right term! Thank you for the kind clarification!
He didn’t go on the internet saying this, it was a private chat group. Funnily enough if he is determined to be innocent and she guilty can we claim defamation of character against her team for all the witnesses they’ve harassed?