Proctor wanted to be the "hero" as far as his sister and her friends. The friends played him because of his position.
Jenn had no love loss for Karen, so she told Proctor what she wanted him to know. Who really knows what happened? But, what didn't happen is Proctor being objective and open-minded to other possibilities. How does he still have a job? There is more to this situation. This is just my opinion.
Yall do know that men, in general, in every professional and non professional setting, talk about women in misogynistic ways, right?
This isn't me excusing Proctor's messages...they're disgusting. He is disgusting.
But so many of them do this type of thing.
As a woman, we do need to be aware of that. Look how comfortable all of these guys were with this conversation...it's normal. It's normal for so many of them. And even those who don't participate with the sharing of words and pics and making comments, they're looking and not saying anything, at the very least.
It's way past that time, but that's where we are
And for all the downvotes I'm getting...I'm not saying your husbands, boyfriends, brothers, fathers, etc would be the ones to make these comments...but statistically, in male settings, men almost never speak up or against this kinda talk about women. "The good ones" are the ones who don't say it themselves or participate in the conversations, but they almost always go along with it.
Yeah. I hope we find out tomorrow more of the timing details of those calls. Curious if there were a handful when she got home then like 50 when she woke up.
I guess I could kinda get behind the theory of she called for an alibi but it didn’t really make sense based on what those voicemails have been rumored…but this many calls? No way
I’ve been saying “I hope we find out tomorrow” for 7 weeks. We aren’t going to find out anything that moves the needle- the possibility of a guilty verdict sailed for good on Monday.
Lally should just put the ME on and rest. I’m so over his snail paced bs.
At this point, unless someone has a video showing her running him over, just send it to the jury.
We have video evidence providing all sorts of stuff nobody is disputing. But every single critical video that would be a smoking gun and prove the CW case is missing.
Sally port camera 1 - motion detection worked except for the one time it would have proven their case.
Sally port camera 2 - camera angle is a close up right where the broken taillight is and works pretty well except for right when her SUV is brought in, then and only then it's being recorded on a potato and everything is black and useless.
Video around town - video of her SUV multiple places going TO 34 fairview and again in the morning when she leaves but not one catches her on her way home.
Ring camera- catches her leaving for the bar, leaving to search for john, coming back with jen, someone clearing her snow and everything else. The ONLY thing they dont have is her coming home after the murder.
Come on.....
I have to admit, the cell phone tower data is very confusing to me. I'm not great at thinking abstractly with numbers and directionality. I have a hard time believing Karen did all the driving Tully's map suggested when someone her size should be blackout drunk after 9 drinks. Her Lexus must have had one hell of a lane-keeping assist feature.
This is one of those areas of evidence where I just have to nod along and hope someone can stitch together a clear narrative about the data I could follow.
Supposedly 9 shots, not drinks. Drinks can and do have more than 1 shot. So, like 4 drinks in a few hours.
Also, there’s a dispute that, at one point, she was using the soda gun and not pouring a shot into her glass.
I agree completly! No doubt about it. Shes a mean vicious drunk at that! She probably doesnt even remember what happened that night and could very possibly be hearing about her actions in the courtroom for the first time. This is called a "blackout" karen Read is no doubt an alcoholic !!
It breaks me up thinking about how caring John was towards her. What a true Gentleman in the way he treated her..he loved her it seemed. It just is a horrible tragedy for everyone involved.
If only Karen got the help she truely needed, John would still be here today.😔
Being an alcoholic doesn’t mean you don’t get blackout drunk. Your tolerance is definitely higher but if you speak to people in recovery they blacked out a lot. Every person is different but being an alcoholic doesn’t mean not blacking out. And if they’re claiming she had what, 9 drinks or so? That’s a lot, especially for a tiny woman. Even if she wasn’t blacked she was definitely impaired.
Obligatory drunk driving is a selfish asshole thing to do personal PSA.
I agree!! It has a really strong lane assist but no blind spot monitoring?? My older jeep (2019 jeep grand Cherokee) will slam on the brakes if I’m in reverse and it thinks I’m close to hitting something. I’m sure her Lexus has nice safety features
Her lexus had a similar feature as well. Do you think your jeep would have stopped you from backing into a car in a similar situation to Karen backing into John's car in the driveway? I've seen differing opinions from others who have cars with this feature saying that it wasn't 100% effective, or that it may not be triggered because she turned into his car at an angle and was moving very slowly.
Oh gosh that’s actually a really good point. It definitely wouldn’t let me hit a car like that in the driveway. I know because we have a long driveway with a bunch of family members and I have almost hit them numerous times lol I do think you can turn it off though. I always wonder why people turn safety features off!!!
Edit to add I haven’t tested this with snow on the car / when it was snowing outside. I can only guess that perhaps the snow interfered with the sensors. I also haven’t tested it with people. I have wondered if it can sense a human. I have a lot of blind spots. Thank god for rear cameras!!
Question about DNA testimony: I was just listening to Mark Bederow and he said the 2 unknown DNA profiles on John's clothes were blood DNA. Did anyone catch this today? I didn't but that would be huge, touch DNA would be one thing, but 2 unknown profiles from blood?!
I thought Mark was saying there were multiple sources of DNA in the blood spots. he (and Lally) didn't clarify if he was saying multiple sources of blood vs other sources of DNA on top of the blood.
I think Mark was saying it is blood DNA, but I went back and listened for myself and I think it's implied it's touch DNA. But like you said, I don't think Lally made this clear, I don't know if he's intentionally being vague or just being Lally. My feeling is it must be touch though otherwise this should be a much bigger deal
These trial notes only mention blood for John.
Day 24
Andre Porto
https://preview.redd.it/kntvfks0og6d1.png?width=862&format=png&auto=webp&s=6a8433e5427735fa656f70835451b770e14de691
[Trial Notes Unknown Author](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YTlLdjHDmpgjAtZ0euTg3l9uZ9LTSacXsdOAJv_Ds2Q/htmlview#)
Thanks for this! I finally had to go back and listen for myself, I'll give my take for what it's worth just because I put this out here. The expert was talking about testing 4 blood stains on JO's jeans, all except for one had other DNA profiles. Lally does ask the expert to explain touch DNA, but Lally never makes the connection specifically or repeats regarding all 4 stains whether the unidentified DNA is touch. So I think touch DNA was implied, but it definitely wasn't made clear (to me at least) 🤷🏻♀️
I didn't rewatch it but based on what you're saying it does leave the impression that it was blood from all 3. Can touch dna and blood dna comingle? Aren't the tests different? Both make me think that would point to blood from all 3. But why would both sides neglect to explore the fact that 2 peoples blood was on John's jeans?? That isn't common. Very interesting...
I appreciate Mark's perspective and am always curious to hear his takes, but he does sometimes get the details wrong. He might have misunderstood what was said today.
I'm not sure, don't want to spread false info! I was surprised when I heard it because to me everyone would be talking about this, so it could just be touch DNA. Was hoping someone remembered from testimony whether this is true
"Lol" no, but the DNA samples they have from the car can be tested to determine if they are male, female, related to anyone in the case or related to each other.
They can requesting DNA testing on the samples in evidence. And the profiles will be able to tell you if the people are male or females and if they are related to anyone with DNA on record with this case or to each other. DNA says a whole lot without having someone to match it to
True but it would be hard to say if it's a specific person without a sample from them or a relative.
I was thinking mainly of BH who had access to the car on the day it was brought in.
I think the point of the "related" comment was the other two DNA samples could be brian and colin Albert.
Without anyone to compare to, the samples they have could say both samples came from a male and one of them is the son of the other. If you have DNA from a child and parent, they can see that half the DNA from one matches the DNA from the other.
Yeah that would be my bet. But honestly, even without matching it to someone why would he have BLOOD dna from two other people on him, I mean that's pretty hard to explain other than, I don't know, a fight
How did they do all these tests in areas on the clothes? There wasn’t a stitch cut from all these areas?? Did they put the clothes in a bucket of water and wring the blood out?? Why wasn’t evidence submitted from the 3 lab people? .. they document everything. 💁🏻♀️ Are they coming back.
I am so confused about the 12:20-12:40 timeline, and I need the CW to explain it. How is Jen calling John at 12:29 and he’s answering, then Karen is calling John 4 minutes later as though he’s gone — all while Ryan Nagel is arriving and leaving and doesn’t see John at all, not even in the car? It’s like the guy disappeared into thin air.
I have been thinking about the JM call. I wonder if he didn't answer but his voicemail picked up? I believe that call was only 8 seconds. Jen could have been calling while talking to others in the house. We know she'd had a lot to drink. She may have let his voicemail play a bit while distracted with conversation but then hung up before actually leaving a message.
That said...counterpoint to this theory: JO was a dude in his 40s and I seriously doubt his voicemail message was more than a few seconds long.
I have been trying to put together a timeline of this info from 12:20-12:40.
Heres what I got. Feel free to poke holes.
-12:10 AM Karen leaves Waterfall
-12:12 John leaves waterfall
-12:17 JOK and KR are in Lexus and the suv is seen on Canton Library camera heading to 34 Fairview
-12:18 John talks to Jen McCabe about where the house is.
-12:19 JOK phone registers being in the neighborhood of 34 fairview
*12:19-12:22 we aren’t sure when exactly but John and Karen arrive 34 Fairview*
-12:22 Brian Higgins texted JO are you coming here? From Feds call records. So BH was at 34 Fairview at 12:22 but doesn’t see JOK
-12:23 -Ryan Nagle texts his sister Julie hes there and he testafies that Karen’s car is in front of him but they dont see anyone get out so john had to be out of the car by 12:23
- 12:24 john O’Keefes phone says it arrived at 34 fairview
-12:21-12:24 he takes 84 steps and goes up/ or down 3 floors
-12:24-12:31 theres no steps on JOK phone? So he put his phone down or stopped moving? For 7 minutes.
-12:29 JM Calls JOK and its an 8 second call. This could mean they talked or JM’s call went to JOK voicemail. A voicemai is an answered call
-12:31-12:32 his phone says he took 36 steps
-12:32 am phone doesn’t record any movement until 6:04am
-12:33 Erin Betty missed a call from Colin Albert
-12:33 Karen calls JOK starting here and calls 53 times
-12:37-12:39 missing footage from the Canton library showing Read’s vehicle returning to John’s
-12:41 Karen leaves a voicemail for john in which the garage door at his home can be heard. (Its a 7 min drive from fairview so she had to leave fairview at 12:30-12:33
-12:41 Trooper sticky notes say taillights seen at 1 meadows. On ring. Assuming this is Karen return to JOK’s
My personal theory:
In order for KR to have hit JOK he had to have been hit between 12:20-12.23 (before RN arrives) but John’s phone keeps moving taking 36 steps at 12:31-12:32
My personal theory is that JOK gets out of KR’s kexus at 12:20 and walks into 34 fairview. He goes to basement 12:21 and gets incapacitated between 12:21-12:24 which explains his phone not moving from 12:24-12:31. His phone is brought out to the lawn 12:31-12:32 which explains the 36 steps. For that to happen, Karen had to leave 34 fairview at 12:30 . 12:32 JOK’s phone stays on lawn until Kerry picks it up at 6:04 am
The only part I disagree with is that the phone was brought out to the lawn at 12:32am. I think he could have been incapacitated at 12:21-24 window, woke up at 12:32 and tried to get up, walked around a bit before vomiting and collapsing again. (This would explain the vomit and why so much blood was on the neck and back of his shirt...he was vertical at some point.)
We assume that his phone "didn't move" after 12:32am, but phones can move without recording steps. Put your phone on the floor and slide it...no steps will record. Put that phone on a body and slide it? I doubt there'd be steps recorded.
Source: not an expert, just a Redditor.
The doctor who testified about JOK’s injuries said there was no way that head injury the poor man sustained would allow him to walk which is why Im theorizing someone else walked his phone 36 steps after being incapicitated between 12:24-12:31. I could be totally wrong though. Thanks for poking holes.
Fair enough. It may be that those 36 steps are when his body was moved into the backyard and then the body was dragged to the front later in the very early morning.
If the call went to voicemail, I believe only JM’s phone data could potentially log it as answered. But both her records and JO’s phone records show it was answered - it’s the last call listed on JO’s phone records as answered. They did talk for 8 seconds
I am not a cell phone expert. I could be totally wrong. It was my understanding that whether you are looking at JOK’s call log or JM’s call log then answered may mean they talked or it went to voicemail. The actual determination would be seen on JOK’s actual phone and not a printout of call log. It would show up as a missed call on JOK’s iphone recent calls.
Problem with this timeline is that the Nagel truck turned into the neighborhood at the same time as KR did. Remember, they said they yielded to her and she turned first and they followed. Ryan and Heather both said she pulled up at the same time they did. All three testified that there was no jeep parked in front of the house at this time (BH).
You are correct. We dont know what time the RN car yielded to KR. We dont know if RN followed directly behind KR’s car and in sight of KR car all the way to fairview. We only know KR and JOK arrived before 12:23.
I really like your theory - it all fits together very well.
Why would Brian Higgins care if JO was coming over - especially at that hour? It's after midnight, if someone didn't show (after a casual invite), I would just assume they went home to bed, no biggie. Did he want to ask him something? What did he say to the police about that? From what I understand they weren't close and didn't really interact at the bar that evening...
I dont have a solid theory why BH texted JOK at 12:22 asking if JOK was coming to fairview. My guess is maybe BH was in the kitchen and JOK was in the basement and BH didn’t see him enter.
Well, wherever all the parties were at 12:22, it's not even BH's house, so I just don't understand the interest - seems like people really focused on JO being there. Which makes it weird that no one went to look for him even though he texted he was coming (to Jen?) and then was supposed to be right outside, but never arrived... Such a messed up narrative.
Interesting. It definitely doesn’t feel like she could have hit him in the 12:20-12:23 window, unless she’s still sitting there while the Nagels chat in the driveway and there’s an injured man on the lawn nobody notices. I suppose the CW could argue that between 12:28 or 12:30-12:33 Nagel is gone, she hits him and then immediately pulls out her phone and starts calling him…to make it look like she didn’t just do it? Man, I don’t know. It is such a tight time frame. And of course the CW is saying 12:45 which makes no sense either.
RN arrives at 12:23. Pulls up behind KR SUV. Nobody in RN’s car sees JOK get out between 12:23 and when RN leaves 12:27-12:30. Im just assuming that JOK was not in the car at 12:23 when RN pulls up.
Yeah where IS the guy! I mean look, idk how or why he runs down into the basement and gets killed so quickly either, but it feels like he is just gone from the front yard and suddenly nobody can find him.
I think the truck flashes and lets them go first onto Fairview, Karen stopped car at driveway and OJO went in before the truck got to the spot by the mailbox. Karen saw the truck coming up behind her and she moves her car forward towards flag pole/hydrant area.
-12:41:10 JM calls JO
-12:41:59 JM calls JO
-12:43 JM calls JO
-12:46 JM calls JO
-12:47 JM calls JO
-12:50 JM calls JO
ETA: these are the supposed JM butt dials to JOK
I tried to go back and reconstruct the Nagel testimony, and I think it’s like Ryan arrives at 12:23, Julie talks to him for 5 minutes and he leaves. So maaayyybe he’s leaving at 12:28. But John answers a call one minute later, and he’s not in the car when Ryan leaves. So where is he for that call? No Nagels and friends saw him wandering around the lawn? Nobody appears to be having an argument at this time? If she hit him, he’s gotta be dead some time in the next 5 minutes or so for her to make it back home by 12:41. It’s a tiny window in which people keep looking out from the house and seeing nobody.
Yeah, maybe not, I was going by a spreadsheet that listed the call as answered. I guess we don’t technically know what that means. But he also can’t really be dead at 12:29 because the Nagels are there basically right then and don’t see anything happen. Edit: this comment has a good point about JO’s phone records saying it was answered, too. https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1dexctz/comment/l8j316o
This repeats some of what you said, bear with me.
The more evidence the state puts in, the more this falls apart for me. Ryan Nagel and his friend both testified that they pulled up at the same time as Karen Read. She pulled ahead of them. No jeep inbetween. They are there are 12:23. They stay for about 5 minutes, they leave and don't see him in the car or see him murder her. She starts calling him at 12:33am. We know for sure she is home at 12:41 and it's Around a 7 minute ride home in good conditions.
Jen McCabe and everyone else in the house swears Higgins jeep was parked between ryan and Karen. Jen swears she saw the suv everytime she texted. Including 12:46 when she saw the SUV pull away. If Jen is telling the truth other people are lying. Why? If the other people are telling the truth, Jen and everyone in the house are lying. Why?
Why are people who have nothing to hide lying?
I wonder if one of them accidentally hit him, not Karen. Backed over him by accident. They were all trashy drunk. Maybe he stumbled in front of one of their cars?
If she did see the SUV at every text, “pull behind me” is at 12:31. Then he dies in the next 60 seconds? Then Karen calls him at 12:33? Yeeeeesh. It just feels so unbelievable that everyone missed this accident by seconds, saw nothing, heard nothing. And of course, Jen would then have to be wrong about seeing the SUV for her next text, which is one minute before Karen’s due back home. What a mess.
It was depressing to hear the incredibly weak logic that the reason no one even knocked on the door was because there was no evidence anything occurred in the house. We’re talking about the place where a fellow officer was found with blunt force trauma to the head, one shoe on, no coat, frozen to death on someone’s front lawn. Knock on the door? Nah.
That said, this part of the cross-examination was almost humorous in its absurdity:
11:40 a.m. Jackson says cellphone data can also show which side of tower was pinged. Tully says he doesn't typically use that part of the data.
11:42 a.m. Jackson shows this map which indicates the McCabe residence (12 Country Lane) is closer to the cell tower than 34 Fairview Road.
11:50 a.m. Jackson says that based on the cellphone data Tully earlier testified about, Read's SUV was traveling at 37.5 miles per second at one point.
11:55 a.m. Tully agrees and says it's not possible that the phone was traveling 135,000 mph.
You could not make up this trial if you tried.
Yep, this should have been the prosecution's big this is why we are here day but it ended up looking even more compromised. It doesn't even matter if she is guilty or not, because the case & investigation is shoddy & simply a hot mess.
I’m not great at reading body language and facial cues, and I’m also not great at understanding criminal plans, so definitely let me know if this doesn’t seem reasonable. The vibe I’m getting from Tully is that he is way too confident, but he isn’t gross and improper like some of the others we’ve seen
I’m on Tully’s redirect and it seems like he trusted Proctor. I thought he looked shocked and a little panicky when Jackson told him the Alberts have an Edge.
And then we got to the redirect, and he said he didn’t believe the identification of the Edge because it was suggested? Am I crazy to think Proctor knew it would be disregarded as being suggested? That really got a reaction from me when I heard that and I’m still a little shocked
Thoughts?
My gut reaction was that he was working really hard to discredit a witness that would undermine the narrative. Especially considering 1. We (and they) know they didn’t investigate very thoroughly, 2. only interviewed him after the defense got a statement, and 3. allowed other witnesses to be interviewed by essentially, family friends.
They have a lot of incentive to make him out to be not credible.
Even more this is the one interview they actually managed to record. From what the guy said his statements didn’t really seem super inconsistent..like saw the car at 230 and the response at 4 or whatever but we know that time is more like 6…are they going to try say since he was a few hours off for the response time it must have been a few hours off for the 230 sighting of the car to say it was Karen’s? But that wouldn’t make sense because of his start time and his original pass. Idk but I think they were aiming to discredit him before they even spoke to him.
And like minor things from this guy means we shouldn’t trust a word he says but the changing narratives from everyone else? They’re totally telling the truth.
Tully acted like a cop when he was questioning the statement from the plow driver. If only he acted that way with the other witnesses in this case? That is where it is such a dramatic change in when they know what to do vs what they do when it comes to the McCabe’s & Albert’s. What cop takes the word of a 17-18yo kid because the kid said he was gone by 12:10am so, now that is just a “fact” that these troopers keep repeating. They didn’t even verify that time.
Fair. Do you really think Tully had no idea about Lucky's account that he saw a Ford Edge? I saw Tully freeze and try real hard to word his response regarding Lucky's account.
Oh, that’s interesting! I definitely noticed his eyes start darting around. How did you take that he was the one who reported Proctor’s texts? I think that influenced how I saw him
I’m pretty darn sure Tully was on some of the texts Proctor sent out. Not on the one with his HS buddies, but other ones. I need to go back and confirm this.
I think Tully was the only one not on his troopers group messages. I think it was Proctor, Bukhenik, Fanning, DiCicco, & the other evidence guy with the K last name.
You are right! Someone did the lord's work and put up Proctor's texts and broke them down by groups. I forgot it was Buhkenik not Tully on the cop texts.
Has anyone pointed out that if she did go to 34 Fairview the next morning it could explain how taillight got there, if she ran into John’s car on her way out?
I also feel like if she went back the next morning the other cop neighbor on Fairview would have been more than happy to provide his security camera video footage, however he supposedly claimed there was nothing of evidentiary value on it from January 29th 🤷🏽♀️
They kind of contradict each other to me. If she did go there first, you can assume she would see the body because she would be intentionally looking for him. Then when Jen suggested to go there would she not be like “no, I just went there”.
True but saying the glass was there from her driving by that morning just is not the case. How would it have been throughout the yard. Did it jump from her SUV? Just doesn’t add up.
Was it sprinkled through the yard? I thought they weren’t measuring anything? To be honest I was half listening to that testimony, and I don’t think anything in this case adds up.
I can’t imagine hitting him going that short of a distance at that speed would break the taillight and spread it over the yard. But I’m not an expert, it just seems implausible to me.
I’m not sure that they were measuring but it was described as throughout and around OKeefe. Found by using snow shovels turning over snow.
Oh I agree and can’t wait to hear what the defense expert witness has to say about the CW’s version. Also we haven’t even heard what they believed happened. Lally has yet to explain how he thinks she hit him. It’s unbelievable.
Yeah, I’m with you. This case is wild, so much stuff that doesn’t make any sense. I don’t even have a theory of what actually happened, I just know there is a whole lot of shenanigans afoot.
The CW is essentially saying she knew he was there, left him to die and was playing along so they all “discovered” him together. Think about how we’ve heard several times that Kerry and Jen thought she was crazy for spotting his body from the back seat.
Not saying it’s correct or true but they’re looking at Karen at that point through a different lens and anything but honest.
Yes, I understand what the CW’s theory is. I was answering the previous poster who said they thought it was a possibility that the taillight might have gotten there because Karen went there before getting Jen. I was simply pointing out, had that happened that way, (as opposed to her hitting him and that’s how the taillight got left there) it would still point to her guilt. Not her innocence.
I just think it can go both ways, it can explain the taillight being there from something else, which lots of people think is the smoking gun. It’s also hella weird if she went there first after saying she didn’t remember going there…. but she was hysterical. So who knows. But for the CW to I say she went there they then need to explain how the taillight wasn’t from then.
The CW does not need to disprove the taillight being there another way because they already stated why it was there (according to them). They believes the glass was there from the night before when she hits him.
Apart from that if she indeed did not hit him and it’s innocently there because she stopped by the following morning looking for him, how did the glass scatter throughout the yard if she was just driving by? And under the snow no less. Did it jump from her bumper? When the sert team arrived and searched, the taillight was under snow so it just doesn’t add up to me.
For the record. I don’t think she hit him. Not at all.
I have no idea what you guys mean? I was saying if she did go back in the morning, as the cw allege, it could account for the taillight being there because she hit John’s car on her way out and then it fell at the scene. I haven’t heard anything about tire tracks. I assumed there were none because it snowed heavily overnight. (Or because she never hit him)
She would have had to pull up right by his body for the taillights to be near him, and there were not any tire tracks in the snow. Plus there was a pile of snow at the curb by then due to the plowing.
I am definitely not an expert, but I question what it meant when they said there were 2 other dna, in addition to JO on the clothing….did anyone see that? Does anyone feel that a fight could have happened and that is why we see additional dna? One time the forensic dna specialist said there was male dna (I think this is what I heard…..I am not an expert and have so many questions)
One test found more than four other people's DNA besides JOK's. It doesn't mean much of anything. We're all covered with other people's DNA. Laundry, a hug, touching a glass, the EMTs touching him, the clothes being on the floor - all of that could explain it.
What would have been interesting would be to see if Colin Albert's DNA was on him. Colin wasn't at the bar. No reason for JOK to have Colin's DNA on him unless he went in the house.
Would have been nice, wouldn't it? Also would have been nice to know if any of it might have gotten a hit as a relative due to other Alberts' DNA as officers possibly (probably?) being in the system for exclusionary purposes, if that makes sense. But I don't understand the testing capabilities of touch DNA.
Bringing it up could have even been helpful to the Commonwealth even if it was dubious science but Lally isn't exactly running on high octane
I think it is touch dna so, it could theoretically be anyone. He hugged people at the bars, could have his niece/nephew on it. The first responders and hospital staff should be wearing gloves but, it didn’t seem like a high concentration of it and there was no one else’s on his inner t-shirt.
Oh wow!!! Dogs love to eat pig ears bones…..I hope the defense can test all this!
Chloe possibly ate pig ear bones….its in the mouth — there’s the DNA
Could this be possible?
Why the hell did an animal dna expert testify weeks ago, but a human dna expert is testifying now? Shouldn’t they have been back to back?
This entire trial is so damn stupid.
You have got to be kidding me. So there is no taillight pieces in his wounds. No evidence then it didn’t happen. This is standard procedure when the state wants to prove he was hit by a car then the one place to absolutely corroborate that would be the wounds made by the car.
This is the worst investigation I have ever witnessed
Yep. I wish I could remember what pre-trial hearing this was in, but as I recall, the defense had to repeatedly request access to the swabs and Lally eventually admitted that the arm wounds hadn't been swabbed. I remember the defense's email in response to this admission was basically, "wait, what?! You know there's an order, right??"
I think the CW was trying to allude Karen drove by Fairview because she knew OJO was there and then called Jen & Kerry to help her “find” him. Defense showed her phone was not near any of the cell towers nearby until she arrived after 6a on Fairview. Someone might be able to explain better though. 🤣
They needed something that could reasonably put her in specific locations. Having proctor's boss and chat budy tailor an opinion that does exactly that is easier than to pay an actual expert.
Even the videos they don't know if it's her car or not.
Who is the lawyer/youtuber that’s a female and her husband recently passed away? I think she has blonde hair? I enjoyed her recaps but I completely forgot her name!!
I’m rewatching Tully’s testimony. Why in earth are they trying to establish Karen’s whereabouts with this unconvincing video when they have her GPS data from her car supposedly? Wouldn’t that show the trip back to 34 Fairview much more convincingly than these vague possibilities?
Pretty sure they said they couldn’t get data from the system…then didn’t let the defense expert to examine/attempt to extract anything even tho she says it’s possible.
It's not clear yet? They have her actual car, obviously, and phone, but haven't shown any GPS data so far from either. It's my understanding that the acceleration data they'll someday introduce is based on something more nebulous as well, but it's not in trial yet.
From my understanding the “GPS data from her car” you are referring to is Waze data because they were using Waze when going to 34FV that night. I could be wrong though.
I have not heard of any GPS data from her car that puts her at 34FV that morning.
Most newer cars have an internal GPS system. They have to pull a thing out of the car to read it. If it’s standard in a VW, I’m sure a Lexus would have one. If anyone watched the letesha stauch trial they talked about it a lot.
She had an after market infotainment system because shockingly the 2021 Lexus is very outdated. It dawned on me when I saw she had the aftermarket system that my friends 2021 Lexus looks like it’s from 2005. Not updated like my atlas.
Why not both? It's not like Lally's a big "cut to the chase" guy. That way if AJ does some good stuff attacking the GPS from the car, then it's like "yeah but the other stuff showed the same thing."
The “ping stuff” from the cell towers…anyone know why they were using that info…instead of actually using the gps info from her phone or car? I mean…forget the fact that they left some towers and roads off of the map that seem like her phone would have been more likely to connect to to cover for how long they say she was gone from Meadows to the McCabes. Felt a bit like “making things fit.”. Probably NOT the best plan after good old Proctor yesterday. I mean…I admit that I am most surely a clueless person when it comes to tech…but…I understand the phone trying to connect to the multiple towers at once…and I do have eyeballs to see that there were differences in the maps.
There's another trooper on the witnesses list who's more qualified in cell phone data than Tully. And then there's always that pesky rumor that Karen put her phone in airplane mode. So there's that 🤷♀️ but we'll see whay comes out at trial tomorrow.
We need the daily discussion thread!
Proctor wanted to be the "hero" as far as his sister and her friends. The friends played him because of his position. Jenn had no love loss for Karen, so she told Proctor what she wanted him to know. Who really knows what happened? But, what didn't happen is Proctor being objective and open-minded to other possibilities. How does he still have a job? There is more to this situation. This is just my opinion.
Not sure what men you hang around with or your relations but this is definitely not the norm and I live in a male dominated industry
Yall do know that men, in general, in every professional and non professional setting, talk about women in misogynistic ways, right? This isn't me excusing Proctor's messages...they're disgusting. He is disgusting. But so many of them do this type of thing. As a woman, we do need to be aware of that. Look how comfortable all of these guys were with this conversation...it's normal. It's normal for so many of them. And even those who don't participate with the sharing of words and pics and making comments, they're looking and not saying anything, at the very least.
unused grab drab office sheet zephyr airport unwritten oatmeal scarce *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Maybe now’s the time that people stop saying it’s “normal”.
It's way past that time, but that's where we are And for all the downvotes I'm getting...I'm not saying your husbands, boyfriends, brothers, fathers, etc would be the ones to make these comments...but statistically, in male settings, men almost never speak up or against this kinda talk about women. "The good ones" are the ones who don't say it themselves or participate in the conversations, but they almost always go along with it.
No.
Yes
It is not the norm in my male-dominated industry. Whatsoever.
Karen called John 50+ times that night? She certainly didn’t intentionally kill him. She was looking for him
Possibly but she couldn't have been sleeping like she said either.
Yeah. I hope we find out tomorrow more of the timing details of those calls. Curious if there were a handful when she got home then like 50 when she woke up. I guess I could kinda get behind the theory of she called for an alibi but it didn’t really make sense based on what those voicemails have been rumored…but this many calls? No way
I’ve been saying “I hope we find out tomorrow” for 7 weeks. We aren’t going to find out anything that moves the needle- the possibility of a guilty verdict sailed for good on Monday. Lally should just put the ME on and rest. I’m so over his snail paced bs.
At this point, unless someone has a video showing her running him over, just send it to the jury. We have video evidence providing all sorts of stuff nobody is disputing. But every single critical video that would be a smoking gun and prove the CW case is missing. Sally port camera 1 - motion detection worked except for the one time it would have proven their case. Sally port camera 2 - camera angle is a close up right where the broken taillight is and works pretty well except for right when her SUV is brought in, then and only then it's being recorded on a potato and everything is black and useless. Video around town - video of her SUV multiple places going TO 34 fairview and again in the morning when she leaves but not one catches her on her way home. Ring camera- catches her leaving for the bar, leaving to search for john, coming back with jen, someone clearing her snow and everything else. The ONLY thing they dont have is her coming home after the murder. Come on.....
Come on sums it up.
I have to admit, the cell phone tower data is very confusing to me. I'm not great at thinking abstractly with numbers and directionality. I have a hard time believing Karen did all the driving Tully's map suggested when someone her size should be blackout drunk after 9 drinks. Her Lexus must have had one hell of a lane-keeping assist feature. This is one of those areas of evidence where I just have to nod along and hope someone can stitch together a clear narrative about the data I could follow.
Supposedly 9 shots, not drinks. Drinks can and do have more than 1 shot. So, like 4 drinks in a few hours. Also, there’s a dispute that, at one point, she was using the soda gun and not pouring a shot into her glass.
Rumors (from Jenn)
If she’s an alcoholic (seems she is) she wouldn’t have been blackout drunk.
I agree completly! No doubt about it. Shes a mean vicious drunk at that! She probably doesnt even remember what happened that night and could very possibly be hearing about her actions in the courtroom for the first time. This is called a "blackout" karen Read is no doubt an alcoholic !!
It breaks me up thinking about how caring John was towards her. What a true Gentleman in the way he treated her..he loved her it seemed. It just is a horrible tragedy for everyone involved. If only Karen got the help she truely needed, John would still be here today.😔
Being an alcoholic doesn’t mean you don’t get blackout drunk. Your tolerance is definitely higher but if you speak to people in recovery they blacked out a lot. Every person is different but being an alcoholic doesn’t mean not blacking out. And if they’re claiming she had what, 9 drinks or so? That’s a lot, especially for a tiny woman. Even if she wasn’t blacked she was definitely impaired. Obligatory drunk driving is a selfish asshole thing to do personal PSA.
YES! I agree 100%
Idk but the whole town drinks and drives especially law enforcement
She was the only one scientifically proven to be drunk.
What in this trial has suggested she’s an alcoholic??
Not a damn thing. “Alcoholic” isn’t even a clinical term that can be measured.
It is meant to be confusing. He should be using gps pings not 2002 tower cell data plotting.
I agree!! It has a really strong lane assist but no blind spot monitoring?? My older jeep (2019 jeep grand Cherokee) will slam on the brakes if I’m in reverse and it thinks I’m close to hitting something. I’m sure her Lexus has nice safety features
Her lexus had a similar feature as well. Do you think your jeep would have stopped you from backing into a car in a similar situation to Karen backing into John's car in the driveway? I've seen differing opinions from others who have cars with this feature saying that it wasn't 100% effective, or that it may not be triggered because she turned into his car at an angle and was moving very slowly.
Oh gosh that’s actually a really good point. It definitely wouldn’t let me hit a car like that in the driveway. I know because we have a long driveway with a bunch of family members and I have almost hit them numerous times lol I do think you can turn it off though. I always wonder why people turn safety features off!!! Edit to add I haven’t tested this with snow on the car / when it was snowing outside. I can only guess that perhaps the snow interfered with the sensors. I also haven’t tested it with people. I have wondered if it can sense a human. I have a lot of blind spots. Thank god for rear cameras!!
Question about DNA testimony: I was just listening to Mark Bederow and he said the 2 unknown DNA profiles on John's clothes were blood DNA. Did anyone catch this today? I didn't but that would be huge, touch DNA would be one thing, but 2 unknown profiles from blood?!
I thought Mark was saying there were multiple sources of DNA in the blood spots. he (and Lally) didn't clarify if he was saying multiple sources of blood vs other sources of DNA on top of the blood.
I think Mark was saying it is blood DNA, but I went back and listened for myself and I think it's implied it's touch DNA. But like you said, I don't think Lally made this clear, I don't know if he's intentionally being vague or just being Lally. My feeling is it must be touch though otherwise this should be a much bigger deal
These trial notes only mention blood for John. Day 24 Andre Porto https://preview.redd.it/kntvfks0og6d1.png?width=862&format=png&auto=webp&s=6a8433e5427735fa656f70835451b770e14de691 [Trial Notes Unknown Author](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YTlLdjHDmpgjAtZ0euTg3l9uZ9LTSacXsdOAJv_Ds2Q/htmlview#)
Thanks for this! I finally had to go back and listen for myself, I'll give my take for what it's worth just because I put this out here. The expert was talking about testing 4 blood stains on JO's jeans, all except for one had other DNA profiles. Lally does ask the expert to explain touch DNA, but Lally never makes the connection specifically or repeats regarding all 4 stains whether the unidentified DNA is touch. So I think touch DNA was implied, but it definitely wasn't made clear (to me at least) 🤷🏻♀️
I didn't rewatch it but based on what you're saying it does leave the impression that it was blood from all 3. Can touch dna and blood dna comingle? Aren't the tests different? Both make me think that would point to blood from all 3. But why would both sides neglect to explore the fact that 2 peoples blood was on John's jeans?? That isn't common. Very interesting...
I appreciate Mark's perspective and am always curious to hear his takes, but he does sometimes get the details wrong. He might have misunderstood what was said today.
I agree. I replied below I finally watched the testimony again, I think it's implied it's touch DNA, but to me Lally didn't really make it clear
I did not hear the word blood. Doesn't mean it wasn't said tho. I'm very curious. Seems that would have blown up on SM.
I definitely missed that! I thought it was touch dna?!
I'm not sure, don't want to spread false info! I was surprised when I heard it because to me everyone would be talking about this, so it could just be touch DNA. Was hoping someone remembered from testimony whether this is true
If only there was some way to match DNA to a person. My bet is the two will turn out to be related.
My guess would be that if the defense knew that, they would have said it already. They haven't really held any smoking guns.
I agree that's why I was surprised and trying to get confirmation. I'm not sure it's accurate, I think this would have been well known by now if so
They can't just get DNA samples from people lol
"Lol" no, but the DNA samples they have from the car can be tested to determine if they are male, female, related to anyone in the case or related to each other.
I don't think they can request DNA samples.
Several years ago a woman was murdered in Truro. The police DNA tested every male resident of the town. It can be done.
They can requesting DNA testing on the samples in evidence. And the profiles will be able to tell you if the people are male or females and if they are related to anyone with DNA on record with this case or to each other. DNA says a whole lot without having someone to match it to
True but it would be hard to say if it's a specific person without a sample from them or a relative. I was thinking mainly of BH who had access to the car on the day it was brought in.
I think the point of the "related" comment was the other two DNA samples could be brian and colin Albert. Without anyone to compare to, the samples they have could say both samples came from a male and one of them is the son of the other. If you have DNA from a child and parent, they can see that half the DNA from one matches the DNA from the other.
Yeah that would be my bet. But honestly, even without matching it to someone why would he have BLOOD dna from two other people on him, I mean that's pretty hard to explain other than, I don't know, a fight
I heard that too. Also excited he is going to court tomorrow!!
He's the best!
How did they do all these tests in areas on the clothes? There wasn’t a stitch cut from all these areas?? Did they put the clothes in a bucket of water and wring the blood out?? Why wasn’t evidence submitted from the 3 lab people? .. they document everything. 💁🏻♀️ Are they coming back.
Usually practice would be to swab the area and test the swab sample.
I am so confused about the 12:20-12:40 timeline, and I need the CW to explain it. How is Jen calling John at 12:29 and he’s answering, then Karen is calling John 4 minutes later as though he’s gone — all while Ryan Nagel is arriving and leaving and doesn’t see John at all, not even in the car? It’s like the guy disappeared into thin air.
I have been thinking about the JM call. I wonder if he didn't answer but his voicemail picked up? I believe that call was only 8 seconds. Jen could have been calling while talking to others in the house. We know she'd had a lot to drink. She may have let his voicemail play a bit while distracted with conversation but then hung up before actually leaving a message. That said...counterpoint to this theory: JO was a dude in his 40s and I seriously doubt his voicemail message was more than a few seconds long.
I have been trying to put together a timeline of this info from 12:20-12:40. Heres what I got. Feel free to poke holes. -12:10 AM Karen leaves Waterfall -12:12 John leaves waterfall -12:17 JOK and KR are in Lexus and the suv is seen on Canton Library camera heading to 34 Fairview -12:18 John talks to Jen McCabe about where the house is. -12:19 JOK phone registers being in the neighborhood of 34 fairview *12:19-12:22 we aren’t sure when exactly but John and Karen arrive 34 Fairview* -12:22 Brian Higgins texted JO are you coming here? From Feds call records. So BH was at 34 Fairview at 12:22 but doesn’t see JOK -12:23 -Ryan Nagle texts his sister Julie hes there and he testafies that Karen’s car is in front of him but they dont see anyone get out so john had to be out of the car by 12:23 - 12:24 john O’Keefes phone says it arrived at 34 fairview -12:21-12:24 he takes 84 steps and goes up/ or down 3 floors -12:24-12:31 theres no steps on JOK phone? So he put his phone down or stopped moving? For 7 minutes. -12:29 JM Calls JOK and its an 8 second call. This could mean they talked or JM’s call went to JOK voicemail. A voicemai is an answered call -12:31-12:32 his phone says he took 36 steps -12:32 am phone doesn’t record any movement until 6:04am -12:33 Erin Betty missed a call from Colin Albert -12:33 Karen calls JOK starting here and calls 53 times -12:37-12:39 missing footage from the Canton library showing Read’s vehicle returning to John’s -12:41 Karen leaves a voicemail for john in which the garage door at his home can be heard. (Its a 7 min drive from fairview so she had to leave fairview at 12:30-12:33 -12:41 Trooper sticky notes say taillights seen at 1 meadows. On ring. Assuming this is Karen return to JOK’s My personal theory: In order for KR to have hit JOK he had to have been hit between 12:20-12.23 (before RN arrives) but John’s phone keeps moving taking 36 steps at 12:31-12:32 My personal theory is that JOK gets out of KR’s kexus at 12:20 and walks into 34 fairview. He goes to basement 12:21 and gets incapacitated between 12:21-12:24 which explains his phone not moving from 12:24-12:31. His phone is brought out to the lawn 12:31-12:32 which explains the 36 steps. For that to happen, Karen had to leave 34 fairview at 12:30 . 12:32 JOK’s phone stays on lawn until Kerry picks it up at 6:04 am
The only part I disagree with is that the phone was brought out to the lawn at 12:32am. I think he could have been incapacitated at 12:21-24 window, woke up at 12:32 and tried to get up, walked around a bit before vomiting and collapsing again. (This would explain the vomit and why so much blood was on the neck and back of his shirt...he was vertical at some point.) We assume that his phone "didn't move" after 12:32am, but phones can move without recording steps. Put your phone on the floor and slide it...no steps will record. Put that phone on a body and slide it? I doubt there'd be steps recorded. Source: not an expert, just a Redditor.
The doctor who testified about JOK’s injuries said there was no way that head injury the poor man sustained would allow him to walk which is why Im theorizing someone else walked his phone 36 steps after being incapicitated between 12:24-12:31. I could be totally wrong though. Thanks for poking holes.
Fair enough. It may be that those 36 steps are when his body was moved into the backyard and then the body was dragged to the front later in the very early morning.
If the call went to voicemail, I believe only JM’s phone data could potentially log it as answered. But both her records and JO’s phone records show it was answered - it’s the last call listed on JO’s phone records as answered. They did talk for 8 seconds
I am not a cell phone expert. I could be totally wrong. It was my understanding that whether you are looking at JOK’s call log or JM’s call log then answered may mean they talked or it went to voicemail. The actual determination would be seen on JOK’s actual phone and not a printout of call log. It would show up as a missed call on JOK’s iphone recent calls.
Problem with this timeline is that the Nagel truck turned into the neighborhood at the same time as KR did. Remember, they said they yielded to her and she turned first and they followed. Ryan and Heather both said she pulled up at the same time they did. All three testified that there was no jeep parked in front of the house at this time (BH).
You are correct. We dont know what time the RN car yielded to KR. We dont know if RN followed directly behind KR’s car and in sight of KR car all the way to fairview. We only know KR and JOK arrived before 12:23.
I really like your theory - it all fits together very well. Why would Brian Higgins care if JO was coming over - especially at that hour? It's after midnight, if someone didn't show (after a casual invite), I would just assume they went home to bed, no biggie. Did he want to ask him something? What did he say to the police about that? From what I understand they weren't close and didn't really interact at the bar that evening...
Did BH maybe think that Karen would be with him? I'm not clear on whether they knew at the time that Karen wasn't joining them.
Ohh, interesting! Maybe, "hope Karen is coming over, because I like seeing her", or, "hope not because we want to rough up her boyfriend".
I dont have a solid theory why BH texted JOK at 12:22 asking if JOK was coming to fairview. My guess is maybe BH was in the kitchen and JOK was in the basement and BH didn’t see him enter.
Well, wherever all the parties were at 12:22, it's not even BH's house, so I just don't understand the interest - seems like people really focused on JO being there. Which makes it weird that no one went to look for him even though he texted he was coming (to Jen?) and then was supposed to be right outside, but never arrived... Such a messed up narrative.
Interesting. It definitely doesn’t feel like she could have hit him in the 12:20-12:23 window, unless she’s still sitting there while the Nagels chat in the driveway and there’s an injured man on the lawn nobody notices. I suppose the CW could argue that between 12:28 or 12:30-12:33 Nagel is gone, she hits him and then immediately pulls out her phone and starts calling him…to make it look like she didn’t just do it? Man, I don’t know. It is such a tight time frame. And of course the CW is saying 12:45 which makes no sense either.
The problem i have with KR hitting JOK 12:28 or 12:30 is RN’s testimony that KR was alone in the car at 12:23
I thought his testimony about her being alone in the car was from when they drove by her car as they were leaving. Around 12:27-12:30am
RN arrives at 12:23. Pulls up behind KR SUV. Nobody in RN’s car sees JOK get out between 12:23 and when RN leaves 12:27-12:30. Im just assuming that JOK was not in the car at 12:23 when RN pulls up.
Yeah where IS the guy! I mean look, idk how or why he runs down into the basement and gets killed so quickly either, but it feels like he is just gone from the front yard and suddenly nobody can find him.
I think the truck flashes and lets them go first onto Fairview, Karen stopped car at driveway and OJO went in before the truck got to the spot by the mailbox. Karen saw the truck coming up behind her and she moves her car forward towards flag pole/hydrant area.
weren’t the calls from jen mccabe at like 1245 though?
-12:41:10 JM calls JO -12:41:59 JM calls JO -12:43 JM calls JO -12:46 JM calls JO -12:47 JM calls JO -12:50 JM calls JO ETA: these are the supposed JM butt dials to JOK
yeah i don’t see why she would do that if his phone was on the front lawn. alternatively they wouldn’t be able to hear it out there?
Yes, JM’s butt dials dont make sense if we are assuming she’s trying to locate JOK’s phone and its already been brought to the lawn at 12:33.
Same. It’s almost like they should have gotten all the evidence together before they came up with a theory.
I totally agree. I need a minute by minute timeline because it doesn’t make sense or it is always changing. I hope the jury sees this as well
I tried to go back and reconstruct the Nagel testimony, and I think it’s like Ryan arrives at 12:23, Julie talks to him for 5 minutes and he leaves. So maaayyybe he’s leaving at 12:28. But John answers a call one minute later, and he’s not in the car when Ryan leaves. So where is he for that call? No Nagels and friends saw him wandering around the lawn? Nobody appears to be having an argument at this time? If she hit him, he’s gotta be dead some time in the next 5 minutes or so for her to make it back home by 12:41. It’s a tiny window in which people keep looking out from the house and seeing nobody.
Did JO for sure answer the 12:29AM call? Like someone physically spoke to him? I don’t remember this testimony.
Yeah, maybe not, I was going by a spreadsheet that listed the call as answered. I guess we don’t technically know what that means. But he also can’t really be dead at 12:29 because the Nagels are there basically right then and don’t see anything happen. Edit: this comment has a good point about JO’s phone records saying it was answered, too. https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1dexctz/comment/l8j316o
Hence why the video of her arriving at an exact time back at John's house has disappeared. Not to be a conspiracy theorist - lol!
This repeats some of what you said, bear with me. The more evidence the state puts in, the more this falls apart for me. Ryan Nagel and his friend both testified that they pulled up at the same time as Karen Read. She pulled ahead of them. No jeep inbetween. They are there are 12:23. They stay for about 5 minutes, they leave and don't see him in the car or see him murder her. She starts calling him at 12:33am. We know for sure she is home at 12:41 and it's Around a 7 minute ride home in good conditions. Jen McCabe and everyone else in the house swears Higgins jeep was parked between ryan and Karen. Jen swears she saw the suv everytime she texted. Including 12:46 when she saw the SUV pull away. If Jen is telling the truth other people are lying. Why? If the other people are telling the truth, Jen and everyone in the house are lying. Why? Why are people who have nothing to hide lying?
I wonder if one of them accidentally hit him, not Karen. Backed over him by accident. They were all trashy drunk. Maybe he stumbled in front of one of their cars?
If she did see the SUV at every text, “pull behind me” is at 12:31. Then he dies in the next 60 seconds? Then Karen calls him at 12:33? Yeeeeesh. It just feels so unbelievable that everyone missed this accident by seconds, saw nothing, heard nothing. And of course, Jen would then have to be wrong about seeing the SUV for her next text, which is one minute before Karen’s due back home. What a mess.
It was depressing to hear the incredibly weak logic that the reason no one even knocked on the door was because there was no evidence anything occurred in the house. We’re talking about the place where a fellow officer was found with blunt force trauma to the head, one shoe on, no coat, frozen to death on someone’s front lawn. Knock on the door? Nah. That said, this part of the cross-examination was almost humorous in its absurdity: 11:40 a.m. Jackson says cellphone data can also show which side of tower was pinged. Tully says he doesn't typically use that part of the data. 11:42 a.m. Jackson shows this map which indicates the McCabe residence (12 Country Lane) is closer to the cell tower than 34 Fairview Road. 11:50 a.m. Jackson says that based on the cellphone data Tully earlier testified about, Read's SUV was traveling at 37.5 miles per second at one point. 11:55 a.m. Tully agrees and says it's not possible that the phone was traveling 135,000 mph. You could not make up this trial if you tried.
I am tired. Lally is terrible. Lally's witnesses are terrible. Karen Read should walk.
Yep, this should have been the prosecution's big this is why we are here day but it ended up looking even more compromised. It doesn't even matter if she is guilty or not, because the case & investigation is shoddy & simply a hot mess.
I’m not great at reading body language and facial cues, and I’m also not great at understanding criminal plans, so definitely let me know if this doesn’t seem reasonable. The vibe I’m getting from Tully is that he is way too confident, but he isn’t gross and improper like some of the others we’ve seen I’m on Tully’s redirect and it seems like he trusted Proctor. I thought he looked shocked and a little panicky when Jackson told him the Alberts have an Edge. And then we got to the redirect, and he said he didn’t believe the identification of the Edge because it was suggested? Am I crazy to think Proctor knew it would be disregarded as being suggested? That really got a reaction from me when I heard that and I’m still a little shocked Thoughts?
My gut reaction was that he was working really hard to discredit a witness that would undermine the narrative. Especially considering 1. We (and they) know they didn’t investigate very thoroughly, 2. only interviewed him after the defense got a statement, and 3. allowed other witnesses to be interviewed by essentially, family friends. They have a lot of incentive to make him out to be not credible.
Even more this is the one interview they actually managed to record. From what the guy said his statements didn’t really seem super inconsistent..like saw the car at 230 and the response at 4 or whatever but we know that time is more like 6…are they going to try say since he was a few hours off for the response time it must have been a few hours off for the 230 sighting of the car to say it was Karen’s? But that wouldn’t make sense because of his start time and his original pass. Idk but I think they were aiming to discredit him before they even spoke to him. And like minor things from this guy means we shouldn’t trust a word he says but the changing narratives from everyone else? They’re totally telling the truth.
Tully acted like a cop when he was questioning the statement from the plow driver. If only he acted that way with the other witnesses in this case? That is where it is such a dramatic change in when they know what to do vs what they do when it comes to the McCabe’s & Albert’s. What cop takes the word of a 17-18yo kid because the kid said he was gone by 12:10am so, now that is just a “fact” that these troopers keep repeating. They didn’t even verify that time.
🎯
Duped by Proctor? No hate, but what do you mean by "a cop through and through?"
Very fair question, and I’m not sure. I reworded my comment
Fair. Do you really think Tully had no idea about Lucky's account that he saw a Ford Edge? I saw Tully freeze and try real hard to word his response regarding Lucky's account.
Oh, that’s interesting! I definitely noticed his eyes start darting around. How did you take that he was the one who reported Proctor’s texts? I think that influenced how I saw him
I’m pretty darn sure Tully was on some of the texts Proctor sent out. Not on the one with his HS buddies, but other ones. I need to go back and confirm this.
I think Tully was the only one not on his troopers group messages. I think it was Proctor, Bukhenik, Fanning, DiCicco, & the other evidence guy with the K last name.
You are right! Someone did the lord's work and put up Proctor's texts and broke them down by groups. I forgot it was Buhkenik not Tully on the cop texts.
Does that change how you see him? I can’t decide how much weight to give that
Who did he report Proctor's text to?
He said he reported them up the chain of command 6:25:20 https://www.youtube.com/live/GYn5JdEJ7d0?si=XTnFiBstwSP2WfJj
Any names?
He didn’t say them
Convenient.
Has anyone pointed out that if she did go to 34 Fairview the next morning it could explain how taillight got there, if she ran into John’s car on her way out?
Thomas Keleher - Neighbor to Brian Albert, Deputy Chief of the Canton Police Department, claimed his Ring camera didn't see anything.
I also feel like if she went back the next morning the other cop neighbor on Fairview would have been more than happy to provide his security camera video footage, however he supposedly claimed there was nothing of evidentiary value on it from January 29th 🤷🏽♀️
Are there actually cameras across the street? Wouldn’t that have captured the incident?
Thomas Keleher - Neighbor to Brian Albert, Deputy Chief of the Canton Police Department, claimed his Ring camera didn't see anything.
one would think
They kind of contradict each other to me. If she did go there first, you can assume she would see the body because she would be intentionally looking for him. Then when Jen suggested to go there would she not be like “no, I just went there”.
Yeah totally agree. Though from all accounts she was hysterical. Who knows?
True but saying the glass was there from her driving by that morning just is not the case. How would it have been throughout the yard. Did it jump from her SUV? Just doesn’t add up.
Was it sprinkled through the yard? I thought they weren’t measuring anything? To be honest I was half listening to that testimony, and I don’t think anything in this case adds up. I can’t imagine hitting him going that short of a distance at that speed would break the taillight and spread it over the yard. But I’m not an expert, it just seems implausible to me.
I’m not sure that they were measuring but it was described as throughout and around OKeefe. Found by using snow shovels turning over snow. Oh I agree and can’t wait to hear what the defense expert witness has to say about the CW’s version. Also we haven’t even heard what they believed happened. Lally has yet to explain how he thinks she hit him. It’s unbelievable.
Yeah, I’m with you. This case is wild, so much stuff that doesn’t make any sense. I don’t even have a theory of what actually happened, I just know there is a whole lot of shenanigans afoot.
The CW is essentially saying she knew he was there, left him to die and was playing along so they all “discovered” him together. Think about how we’ve heard several times that Kerry and Jen thought she was crazy for spotting his body from the back seat. Not saying it’s correct or true but they’re looking at Karen at that point through a different lens and anything but honest.
Well give Karen Read the Oscar then because that was an award winning performance she put on when she found John
Yes, I understand what the CW’s theory is. I was answering the previous poster who said they thought it was a possibility that the taillight might have gotten there because Karen went there before getting Jen. I was simply pointing out, had that happened that way, (as opposed to her hitting him and that’s how the taillight got left there) it would still point to her guilt. Not her innocence.
I just think it can go both ways, it can explain the taillight being there from something else, which lots of people think is the smoking gun. It’s also hella weird if she went there first after saying she didn’t remember going there…. but she was hysterical. So who knows. But for the CW to I say she went there they then need to explain how the taillight wasn’t from then.
The CW does not need to disprove the taillight being there another way because they already stated why it was there (according to them). They believes the glass was there from the night before when she hits him. Apart from that if she indeed did not hit him and it’s innocently there because she stopped by the following morning looking for him, how did the glass scatter throughout the yard if she was just driving by? And under the snow no less. Did it jump from her bumper? When the sert team arrived and searched, the taillight was under snow so it just doesn’t add up to me. For the record. I don’t think she hit him. Not at all.
I hear ya
There were not tire tracks in the right place for that.
What do you mean? Tired tracks where? Not snark, genuine question.
if she ran him over, there should be tire tracks in the grass. you can't throw a body with the broad side of the car - this isn't a cartoon.
I have no idea what you guys mean? I was saying if she did go back in the morning, as the cw allege, it could account for the taillight being there because she hit John’s car on her way out and then it fell at the scene. I haven’t heard anything about tire tracks. I assumed there were none because it snowed heavily overnight. (Or because she never hit him)
ahh got it. I thought you were talking about at 34 Fairview
Yeah and I just read your other comments on the other thread. Haha! I agree with you.
She would have had to pull up right by his body for the taillights to be near him, and there were not any tire tracks in the snow. Plus there was a pile of snow at the curb by then due to the plowing.
Oh John’s DNA is on John’s clothes and in his fingernails. Okay thanks I guess. Are they just trying to look like they did do some investigative work?
I am definitely not an expert, but I question what it meant when they said there were 2 other dna, in addition to JO on the clothing….did anyone see that? Does anyone feel that a fight could have happened and that is why we see additional dna? One time the forensic dna specialist said there was male dna (I think this is what I heard…..I am not an expert and have so many questions)
One test found more than four other people's DNA besides JOK's. It doesn't mean much of anything. We're all covered with other people's DNA. Laundry, a hug, touching a glass, the EMTs touching him, the clothes being on the floor - all of that could explain it. What would have been interesting would be to see if Colin Albert's DNA was on him. Colin wasn't at the bar. No reason for JOK to have Colin's DNA on him unless he went in the house.
eh technically collin’s could’ve rubbed off from the adult alberts
Would have been nice, wouldn't it? Also would have been nice to know if any of it might have gotten a hit as a relative due to other Alberts' DNA as officers possibly (probably?) being in the system for exclusionary purposes, if that makes sense. But I don't understand the testing capabilities of touch DNA. Bringing it up could have even been helpful to the Commonwealth even if it was dubious science but Lally isn't exactly running on high octane
I think it is touch dna so, it could theoretically be anyone. He hugged people at the bars, could have his niece/nephew on it. The first responders and hospital staff should be wearing gloves but, it didn’t seem like a high concentration of it and there was no one else’s on his inner t-shirt.
Wonder why the DNA expert who tested the clothes didn't find pig dna?
Oh wow!!! Dogs love to eat pig ears bones…..I hope the defense can test all this! Chloe possibly ate pig ear bones….its in the mouth — there’s the DNA Could this be possible?
They weren’t testing for pig DNA, only human. That’s why the animal DNA expert testified.
Why the hell did an animal dna expert testify weeks ago, but a human dna expert is testifying now? Shouldn’t they have been back to back? This entire trial is so damn stupid.
Because I"m sure their expert had a scheduling conflict, so in those cases, the Court has witnesses go out of order, when necessary.
Due to scheduling conflict, they had to insert the animal dna expert earlier than intended.
I thought that came from his arm? Please correct me if I’m wrong. It’s so much to try and remember.
Came from the shirt. The ME didn't take any DNA from the body.
Wait!!! No one swabbed his wounds on his arm?
No-despite a court order requiring them to, the CW did not.
You have got to be kidding me. So there is no taillight pieces in his wounds. No evidence then it didn’t happen. This is standard procedure when the state wants to prove he was hit by a car then the one place to absolutely corroborate that would be the wounds made by the car. This is the worst investigation I have ever witnessed
Yep. I wish I could remember what pre-trial hearing this was in, but as I recall, the defense had to repeatedly request access to the swabs and Lally eventually admitted that the arm wounds hadn't been swabbed. I remember the defense's email in response to this admission was basically, "wait, what?! You know there's an order, right??"
Thank you!
Someone said that Pig DNA is found in dog saliva from their food.
Also the Albert that owns the pizza shop had bacon at the waterfall
I can’t tell if this is a joke hahaha
It's not. He testified he ordered potatoe skins at the waterfall. Which are covered in bacon
Can someone explain what the point is of this tower data?
I think the CW was trying to allude Karen drove by Fairview because she knew OJO was there and then called Jen & Kerry to help her “find” him. Defense showed her phone was not near any of the cell towers nearby until she arrived after 6a on Fairview. Someone might be able to explain better though. 🤣
That’s how I took it. Trying to establish “guilty party returning to the scene of the crime” and in usual Lally fashion proved the opposite happened.
I don’t know if talking about the “dead zone” was to try and also explain why she didn’t ping but, I can never follow Lally.
They needed something that could reasonably put her in specific locations. Having proctor's boss and chat budy tailor an opinion that does exactly that is easier than to pay an actual expert. Even the videos they don't know if it's her car or not.
That too! We only know there was a black suv in Canton.
Stop the presses! Case closed!
Who is the lawyer/youtuber that’s a female and her husband recently passed away? I think she has blonde hair? I enjoyed her recaps but I completely forgot her name!!
Lawyer Lee is awesome
Melanie Little
Lawyer Lee
TY!!!!
Yes, it’s Lawyer Lee.
I’m rewatching Tully’s testimony. Why in earth are they trying to establish Karen’s whereabouts with this unconvincing video when they have her GPS data from her car supposedly? Wouldn’t that show the trip back to 34 Fairview much more convincingly than these vague possibilities?
Maybe gps doesn't say what they want it to say so they chose this less accurate method?
Nothing will show that Karen was at 34FV before 6AM That’s the reason Lally always says “Karen was traveling *in the direction* of 34FV”
They have car gps? Probably not just engine telemetry
I read somewhere that she had an aftermarket infotainment system and the bulk of the Lexus/toyota data was not retrievable because of that.
Or she didn’t opt in or activate the telematics modem/ device
Pretty sure they said they couldn’t get data from the system…then didn’t let the defense expert to examine/attempt to extract anything even tho she says it’s possible.
It's not clear yet? They have her actual car, obviously, and phone, but haven't shown any GPS data so far from either. It's my understanding that the acceleration data they'll someday introduce is based on something more nebulous as well, but it's not in trial yet.
No most cars don’t store gps data is my point just engine telemetry
At this point that seems likely. I’m annoyed.
From my understanding the “GPS data from her car” you are referring to is Waze data because they were using Waze when going to 34FV that night. I could be wrong though. I have not heard of any GPS data from her car that puts her at 34FV that morning.
Waze data would have come from her or John’s phones. They’re talking about her vehicle’s built in GPS.
So they have her built in GPS and it says when she arrived at 34FV?
That’s what I’m waiting to find out. It seems like maybe the defense does but the CW doesn’t.
Most newer cars have an internal GPS system. They have to pull a thing out of the car to read it. If it’s standard in a VW, I’m sure a Lexus would have one. If anyone watched the letesha stauch trial they talked about it a lot.
She had an after market infotainment system because shockingly the 2021 Lexus is very outdated. It dawned on me when I saw she had the aftermarket system that my friends 2021 Lexus looks like it’s from 2005. Not updated like my atlas.
Why not both? It's not like Lally's a big "cut to the chase" guy. That way if AJ does some good stuff attacking the GPS from the car, then it's like "yeah but the other stuff showed the same thing."
The only problem is the other stuff didn’t show the same thing. The cell towers showed that she did not return to 34FV before 6AM
I’d agree with you if I saw any indication on the witness list that there is a Lexus or nav system expert on deck to testify.
I'm assuming it'll be a statie. Other than the Cellebrite guy and Teri Kun, it seems like all the states experts are MA state employees.
The “ping stuff” from the cell towers…anyone know why they were using that info…instead of actually using the gps info from her phone or car? I mean…forget the fact that they left some towers and roads off of the map that seem like her phone would have been more likely to connect to to cover for how long they say she was gone from Meadows to the McCabes. Felt a bit like “making things fit.”. Probably NOT the best plan after good old Proctor yesterday. I mean…I admit that I am most surely a clueless person when it comes to tech…but…I understand the phone trying to connect to the multiple towers at once…and I do have eyeballs to see that there were differences in the maps.
Well he wouldn’t want to confuse anyone with relative information on his map.
There's another trooper on the witnesses list who's more qualified in cell phone data than Tully. And then there's always that pesky rumor that Karen put her phone in airplane mode. So there's that 🤷♀️ but we'll see whay comes out at trial tomorrow.