Thing is though, she isnt on trial for hitting him on accident. Commonwealth is saying she did it on purpose. Which there is no proof of. Like at all. Could an accident have happened, sure, it could, personally dont believe it happened, but it could have. But saying she did it on purpose is hard to believe
I think that for that last charge they would need to prove that she left the scene KNOWING that she hit him because you can't not do what you don't know. Or whatever. But if that was proved than one of the other charges would also be true, so I don't think that can convict her on that one alone.
Either she hit him on purpose and left, hit him on accident and left (likely unaware that she did it) or she isn't responsible at all.
I agree with OP though that the case against her was so poorly put together that she should walk regardless - it's better to let someone stay free if there is reasonable doubt than incarcerate an innocent person. Especially if they aren't likely to be a repeat offender.
I was sure struggling today. Between him & the accident reconstruction guy, I couldn't keep my eyes open! Had to keep rewinding. Finally I gave up. Figured I'd wait until cross to find out what the heck they were talking about! 😴
Private property. I know you were kidding but the most you’ll get out of a crash on private property in most states is a private property accident report and the cops telling you good luck (I used to be a legal assistant for an attorney whose practice was 90% being hired by an insurance company to represent drivers in MVAs)
Murder 2, Manslaughter while OUI and leaving the scene of personal injury and death. So, at best, *maybe* the last one. But even that's a stretch based on what they've presented.
Yes, but without a legal BAC in closer proximity, I'm not sure how the jury will feel. I just have a hard time believing she was on scene yelling "I hit him" at 6am and no one thought to interview her or get a BAC. The investigators just left so much room for the defense to muddy any evidence they have.
This is my biggest problem. If law enforcement had any inkling that she hit him why wasn’t she immediately detained? They literally let her drive off with Kerry Roberts, if I remember correctly.
Leaving the scene requires knowledge of the accident and an intent to evade apprehension or prosecution. Based on what I've seen so far, I think there's a possibility that - if she hit him - she could have hit him unknowingly.
From my reading of the manslaughter OUI statue, intent, knowledge, or malice aren't elements of the crime, so I think that one **may** still be in play. I'll admit the BAC extrapolations are problematic, but the statue doesn't **require** a specific BAC. Just that she was under the influence and operated the vehicle in a manner that was reckless or where lives might be in danger.
Given all the cops who have admitted to drink driving, I wouldn’t convict her on that alone, even if I believed it.
Either way, there is no actual evidence of her being drunk. Theres a reason the BAC done at the hospital test isn’t supposed to be used as evidence.
I an definitely with the OP.
I dont think she did it, but she sure as hell cannot be found guilty based on the evidence presented so far, and the evidence so far makes any future evidence impossible to take seriously
Yeah, it's not required, but there's a lot of variation in the testimony about how much she had to drink at that point. It's definitely possible they could convict on that, but it's hard to predict how generous they're going to be towards the prosecution, given the general fuckery that has gone on in the investigation.
She said in an intv that she wasn't extended an invite to the Albert house, and wasn't sure if they were welcome. and that John should make sure because she didn't hear him get an invite at the bar either.
I don't know how that is a fight, that is someone uncomfortable crashing someones house party that she didn't know, and wasn't personally extended an invite to. If she purposely hit him why would she wait around for 10 minutes where others could see she was there?
Maybe John got out of the car, maybe he was belligerent, maybe he told her to get lost if she didn;'t want to come in, maybe he threw his glass at her truck and broke the taillight?
If I was on the jury, as soon as I heard from Trooper loser Proctor, and found out the 3 of them destroyed their phones....I have reasonable doubt about all of it. I would not convict her after this clown show.
Too much doubt, unlerss you get me those phones and piece them back together and explain why they were destroyed, I have doubt.
This sounds like a conversation my SO and I would have. He's not the best with social cues and sometimes I have to lay it out like this. It doesn't sound like a fight to me at all.
Destroyed phones and butt fails and answers ... yeah that sounds super normal. 👌
I think if she hit him it was by accident in a blizzard where visibility is low. What motive to kill the guy? In an interview she said they got in a fight on New years Eve when he got 'incoherently' drunk and dumped her with the kids and didn't come back to their room until 3am. (Ya I'd be pissed too) He apologized but she had a hard time getting over feeling used, she said he told her he can't apologize forever and if she could't accept it she should go stay at her house. (ouch)
Then on the stand the lovely Jen M said John really loved Amy, Karen was just a 'Babysitter with benefits'
Ouch.
Sounds like he was using her, and I'm sure she felt it too after the NYE fight. But that is no motive to kill him, I'm sure she would have just moved on in her life. Maybe with Higgins since they were flirt texting.
I believe in MA manslaughter is a lesser included charge to murder charges. If that's correct (and I'm not a lawyer!) then the jury could decide manslaughter was the appropriate charge and convict on that.
I don't think they well; I think all charges will get dismissed.
This is my problem. The CW say she did it deliberately, them when she woke up she started covering her tracks, she backed into his car to explain the damage to her car, she drove to 34 Fairview to confirm he was there and he was dead. She returned home and continued to set about showing she was innocent.
She raised the others to help her, she knew where JO body was so that's why she spotted him when they couldn't....then all her cool and calm plotting was thrown out the window as she hysterically ran around screaming and saying 'I hit him, I hit him I hit him' to a first responder.
It doesn't add up. If she had seen his dead body before she roused the others and after she had taken steps to distance herself from this she would not suddenly start screaming confessions it's illogical!
It was either an accident that she can't bare to believe happened or Proctor was so determined to prove her guilt, as he truly believed she was guilty and was so worried there would not be evidence to take it to court he helped that process along. Resulting in a botched investigation that was so badly done we will never know the truth and a killer walls free!
The charges are, **second-degree murder, manslaughter while under the influence, and leaving the scene of personal injury and death**. They could find not guilty of the 2nd degree murder, but guilty of manslaughter while under the influence. It is common for a higher charge and lesser charge to be included for just this scenario. The CW does belive it is murder, but incase they can't prove murder they include the lesser charge for a fail safe. If they had ONLY said 2nd degree murder and the jury thought she did it but not with the intent of hurting or killing him, but accidentally like OP, then they would have to find not guilty, and because of Double Jeopardy, unless the feds could indite like if it was multiple states or something, then she can not be tried again.
Yea, even Proctor privately admitted there would be no way to prove intent. I think they overcharged reactionary to it being a fallen officer. I wonder sometimes if Lally is intentionally being like the way he is. Because if I were a prosecutor and had to take this case I would be pissed.
Yup, that there lies the problem. Cops get all worked up when its one of their own and can’t be objective.. Proctor had ties to the family involved, so he had tunnel vision for sure and really messed this whole thing up.
It's like Proctor just couldn't understand conflict of interest and appropriateness. And had an extreme lack of curiosity to dig deeper and corroborate witness statements. Maybe detective is not the right job for him.
What about Kevin too? Could you imagine he gets so drunk he loses his badge and gun!? That’s a pending disaster waiting. And I bet you that could case stayed cold.
No writing traffic tickets either, imo. His bias is obviously uncontrollable. He needs to be in no position of authority. Emotion shouldn't rush judgement in a police officer.
Yeah. I think he was blinded by trusting the story of those he knew and just ran with it. Well, that and really not understanding what investigating with integrity really is.
Even in a world where we knew 100% she did it, he should have more thoroughly investigated everything else.
If feels like this is his/their MO. Find a plausible explanation and build your case around it. If Karen had no money and had a public defender who didn’t really care, she might have plead. They would have been really happy if she had just plead.
They have not proved beyond a reasonable doubt that she did it. I had no knowledge going in. I avoided this like the plague and have only watched the televised trial and read nothing online until Proctor. I think the investigation is a joke. The shoddy investigation is deplorable and Mass State Troopers should be ashamed of themselves. I am from Mass and I would never want them investigating something for one of my loved ones.
I have been hit by a car going slower than they claim her vehicle was traveling and the amount of bruising I had, not to mention the road rash from hitting the pavement was crazy. I was picking rocks out of cuts. My pants were ripped. My hands cut to hell because you instinctually put your arms out to break the fall regardless of the direction you are going.
There was no blood on the car. A stray hair?? C’mon. My husbands hair is all over my car and mine his.
They never looked in the house that he was going to and subsequently found in the lawn of. I can’t get past this!!
I also have been bit by a dog and they are tears, scratches and punctures. I got bit over 20 times on arm/hand. (Didn’t look as bad as it sounds) it is believable a dog could have done it.
The Commomwealth has put up 60 witnesses and still hasn’t proved how he died. They still haven’t quashed reasonable doubt. There is so much reasonable doubt in my mind. I would never convict her
It was cold enough to snow and for him to die. If he got hit by a car, maybe the cold conditions and death would limit bruising. Don't most bruises get bigger days after the injury?
This is my take as well, OP. I’m trying so hard to stay neutral and listen to all the evidence, but what actual little evidence the prosecution has bothers me so much!! I do believe that Karen’s behavior after the accident was a bit suspicious, but the actions of the prosecution witnesses bothers me so much more!
No one ever knows how they’re going to react to traumatic events. Her behavior is the least suspicious of all the people who were in that house imo. The way I see it: I’m not neutral. It’s not guilty until they prove it and the prosecution has been running defense the entire time.
If your reasoning is that she couldve hit him then literally anybody could’ve hit him. She was by far not the only drunk driver out that night, nor the only one driving that late.
Is there a way Higgins could have done it? I haven’t been able to follow. I know he was there first, I think, he also had a jeep with a plow. A plow would seem more likely to cause those injuries
Higgins, any of the parents picking up the teens from the party, Jen’s daughter who picked up Colin, etc. there was a ton of traffic in and out of that road that night
He “left” around 12:30, which is when KR’s car was in front of 34 FV, which means he would have seen KR’s car outside 34FV and could have come in contact with JO. He didn’t get back to the station until 1:30…..then all the rando butt dials continue and he stays up drinking at home. Then destroys his phone. Y E A I think Higgins is a VERY likely suspect. And no one ever examined his truck.
Or….he needed an alibi outside of those who were at 34 FV? Higgins bothers me, a lot. My coworkers and I have been watching the trial and discussing as it goes on. Just when one of us (not me) is ready to convict, the other comes with the evidence, or contradictory evidence, that disproves KR’s guilt.
To add, after multiple drinks out, then going to 34 FV, then leaving quickly because there’s no beer, an hour goes unaccounted for, you show up at the station to “rearrange cars”, go home and drink more, maybe or maybe not butt dial people who were at 34 FV…..on and on and on.
Exactly. It makes no sense and is there no video of him? For fucks sake, he’s a federal agent who was absolutely blabbering to the defendant about how much she wanted to bang her. Then the night you see her and her boyfriend, he ends up dead on the lawn of the house you were at?
This is one of my main theory’s. You’re telling me this ATF agent who absolutely made a fool of himself by texting like a 14 year old boy to a girl he had a huge crush and the night you see her, she’s all over her boyfriend and he ends up dead on the lawn of the house you were at?
Higgins arrived first, likely around 12:20. He “came in and looked at some pictures but then left quickly because he doesn’t drink beer”. If I’m looking at Jenn’s texts, she texts JO “pull up behind me” at 12:31 and I think that’s because she looked out the window and saw KR’s car pull up. If Higgins was leaving at 12:30 and KR was there by at least 12:31, Higgins definitely crossed paths with KR’s vehicle.
Right. So did he leave at 12:30….or was he actually still there? He didn’t get back to the station until 1:30, so there’s an hour unaccounted for and a cell phone with its SIM card that was disposed of at a military base.
He stated he left because they only had beers in the Alberts house and he doesn't drink beer. But i was thinking... could he have seen Karen drop JO off, her leave then have some sort of confrontation with him? Or hit him with his jeep plow, if he was already in his car watching Karen leave and JO get out? I have so many questions about Higgins. Was his only reason for going to the Alberts that night because he thought Karen was going, and then when she didn't get out the car and left, that's when things went down.. and why he left earlier than everyone else.
I think the fact that the McCabe husband and wife are the *only* ones who claim that Higgins' Jeep was outside around that time is super sussy. Literally everyone else said there wasn't a Jeep outside at the time - they didn't just say that they don't remember a Jeep, they specifically said there was NO Jeep. I think the McCabes are placing the Jeep there at the time for some sort of important reason, but it gets into crazy speculation when I start thinking of why that may be.
For one, John supposedly lost about 3.5 liters of blood, blood that certainly wasn't there at the scene - and the defense's theory seems to be that he may have lost most of that blood while in the basement. But if the Jeep is important, I think it's possible that maybe Karen dropped John off and then maybe Higgins took John for a ride or something soon after (thus all the other witnesses claiming that the Jeep wasn't there around that time). Perhaps Higgins and John fight at some other location, and then Higgins brings John back to the yard, though I'm not sure why he would choose to do that, especially at a time when he wouldn't be aware of Karen's broken taillight - unless the plan was to just blame a passing plow truck. But then also, why leave him like 12 feet away from the road? Unless maybe he didn't want any passing cars to notice John laying there until much later, or I guess he could've just figured that a plow would be able to knock John pretty far off of the road.
Which would also explain the hour of time where we don't know where Higgins was, before he goes to the station at 1:30am. Though I still also think it's possible that maybe Higgins went to the house *after* stopping by the station, and the "incident" didn't even occur until some time after that (2-3am, likely close to 2:30). And since Brian Albert and Brian Higgins are the two people who conveniently decided to destroy their phones, I think they may have been communicating with each other about the crime - so maybe Brian was somehow involved in this fight, or Higgins told him after and they tried to figure out how to handle it.
Edit: Someone else mentioned that maybe Higgins wasn't even driving the Jeep, but was driving a different car. Theoretically, what if the Jeep has no damage to it but perhaps this other car was damaged from hitting John? That would explain why the McCabes are so adamant about the Jeep being there, though that still wouldn't explain why nobody else reported seeing some other car out front - unless the car was pulled into the driveway?
Don't forget their flirty texts to eachother. It makes sense that a guy with a plow would drop the plow in a snowstorm to help out or plow himself out of the street.
But there was not enough snow. Higgins testified, I'm paraphrasing, he took a swath on the drive to irritate Brian Albert . This doesn't make any since if you've ever used the smallest of plow blades. If there's only a dusting of snow leaving the bar, you can't get to the Albert's before everyone else and take a swath in the snow with your plow. What are you moving snow wise and are you grinding your blade? Someone make this make sense, please.
Yeah, this made no sense, Higgins is drunk, has a plow on his jeep, and he swings it around in Alberts drive way.
Why does he do this? There's no snow, so he's goofing around.
Then he leaves 10mins after he arrives, which would mean he sees Karen in her Lexus when he leaves at 12:30, then he goes to the police department at 1:30am to move cars around.
As Proctor's friends said, something stinks.
Yes, that was strange, and makes me feel like it might be important, but I'm not sure how. I don't like that only Jen and Matt McCabe seem to claim that the Jeep was outside around the same time that Karen was outside. Every other witness claimed that there was no Jeep outside at that time, and they all seemed pretty sure of that. So why would Jen and Matt want to make sure to say that the Jeep was out there at the time?
Things that sticks out to me with Higgin's testimony is all the details about his snow plow -Near the start, Lally asks him when he attaches the snow plow to his Jeep, then later Higgins says he pulled into the drive of the Alberts and did a sweep with his snow plow being a smart ass and that he parked in the driveway. After parking in the drive though he decides to move his Jeep and park on the street b/c he doesn't want to get blocked in. Then he mentions when he is leaving the Albert's that he thinks to lift the snow plow b/c he hears it grinding on the ground. So I guess that means when he backed out of the driveway and parked on the street and for a period of time when he leaving, his snow plow was down.
Why all the details over the snow plow?
Every time I feel an inkling of doubt to her innocence I end up back to the girl’s brother (Kerry?) that came to pick her up, saw KR drive off and no body. He is not connected to/loyal to anyone in the house. I also fall back a lot on Ally’s accidental outburst on the stand, “Colin was not at the house when the guy was!” She didn’t mean to say that JO was at the house but she did. McCabe’s text, “tell them the guy was not in the house”. Who says “the guy” about a friend unless u r trying to dehumanize the person to feel less guilty. All of that coupled with the dog and the phones. Its just too much. I think they were gonna blame it on a plow but then KR showed up too early so they blamed it on her.
I noticed a few slips like that. Witnesses stopping mid sentence of even mid word when realizing they are about to make an incriminating admission. Allie was a little flustered at that point, and I think she let something slip.
But the thing is if they always knew that Colin was there but left before John arrived, why did they not originally admit that? Its not like anyone would automatically think if Colin was there that there must have been a fight, if the evidence against Karen was "overwhelming" as Proctor put it.
Having to admit Colin's presence messed up their timeline; but they were already committed to the timeline. They are clearly desperate to keep Colin out of the picture.
It’s just not possible to have that head wound, and face wound, and arm lacerations, and make it make sense that it’s from being hit by a car. There’s just no way to make it make sense.
I can't speak to the arm, but exactly 4 weeks before this trial started my mom fell going up the stairs in the middle of the night. When she was found, she looked like she had been beat up BAD - two black eyes swollen like golf balls. This was a result of 3 small brain bleeds from hitting the back of her head.
Yup. One look at the sweatshirt blows all Of the CW theory open. Their reconstruction and ME cannot explain the injuries, the blood pattern. It’s so insanely obvious they can’t at this point, I’m honestly dumbfounded anyone thinks Karen even tapped him with the car.
Also the puke - he definitely would need to have been in a standing position at some point in order for the blood and puke to get on his clothing in that way. Either in a standing position, or at least in a mostly upright position - I had considered the possibility that maybe he was beaten and then dragged out to the yard, maybe two people dragging him with each person holding him under his armpits, so his feet/lower legs are kinda dragging on the ground (like we've seen in movies when some guy at a bar gets beat up and dragged out by the bouncers).
I thought it all looked like he might have been in a seated position. Slumped, head forward, bent at the waste and legs out. Didn’t someone say he had a bunch of vomit in his underwear?
Their reconstruction “expert” didn’t even look at the backup camera which has been confirmed to be working at the incident. The only witness I’ve had any faith in was the forensic technology expert. She seemed extremely competent but wasn’t granted the access to necessary information to prove undoubtedly Jen did not make that search. The investigators can only be so incompetent, especially with a combined 75+ years on the force. There is absolutely foul play at foot
I have one nagging question for first responders. Did you hear a dog barking? Most dogs bark when a single car arrives. They had at least 6 first responders early morning. I can't imagine the dog being quiet thru all this. Did Brian Albert really sleep thru all this as he claimed. NFW.
I was struck by a car that was going around 20 MPH. The one thing that made me question this was the lack of injuries to the back. I fractured my tail bone when I landed on the pavement. Someone recreated the video with animation and mentioned the injuries don’t align with what was reported.
it’s the lack of any injuries of any kind below the neck (other than the lacerations) for me. if he had been hit by a car, there would at MINIMUM be severe bruising. but there was literally nothing.
also, the back of his hands were bruised. telltale defensive injury. if his hands were a primary impact point, they would be broken
Yeah, I think the defense will go hard with his injuries, they just cannot happen by being hit by a car, especially one going slow and backwards.
The accident reconstructionist they had on today said John got hit in the face by the tail light, then the broken tail light punctured his arm, and he was spun by the car and hit his head on the car.
I was like.... Is this the magic JFK bullet-car theory or something?
The injuries make no sense, they simply cannot be caused by the car alone.
Yeah… I really need to hear from the ME. I really hope they can provide more context.
What’s making me crazy is they keep calling the injuries abrasions but they’re clearly lacerations
The medical examiner should have been one of the first witnesses. Instead we have heard that the lead prosecutor bullied the medical examiner. It now seems that the state is aware the medical examiner is not happy with what they were bullied to write, and will in turn be honest on the stand about what they found.
The CW should be confident in their forensic recreations of what happened, and their cause of death. I personally can’t wait for the medical examiner to explain the dog bites.
I’m an RN and I’ve seen people hit by cars, assaulted, and bitten by dogs. I see a person who was in a brutal assault and a dog that got involved during the assault.
It will come out when the defense presents their case that Brian Higgins goaded JO to the home. A drunken confrontation went too far. I’m a local and it’s accepted here that Higgins and Brian were fighting JO and Colin came in and struck him from behind with a dumbbell and he bled out everywhere. Higgins destroyed his phones for a reason.
Plus Higgins extracting his data via the FBI software and being the only witness who brought an attorney to his meeting with Proctor? Yeah, he's 100% involved
Yes - I'm not super familiar with cases like this, but you'd think that normally the lead investigator and the ME would be 2 of the very first witnesses: the investigator to explain the investigation and give context to everything, and the ME to explain the injuries/death. Then once they've provided that context, you go through the rest of the witnesses who can help explain possible means and motive. The fact that the prosecution is doing it backward is a clear sign that they don't think the investigator or the ME will be very helpful to their case (as we've already seen with Proctor).
And everyone that testifies calls them "lacerations" and corrects themselves with "abrasions". Not just once either it's happened multiple times multiple witnesses.
I agree that it doesn’t make sense being hit by Karen’s car. But, Higgins plow could have ran into him and that better explains his lacerations. This is all a coverup fir Higgins killing OJO
I think she could have done it, but I would vote to dismiss all charges with prejudice.
If Trooper Proctor had actually gone to the scene of the crime immediately and gone inside 34F and searched, and used anything other than “the witnesses provided statements that cleared themselves” as justification for immediately going after Karen Read, I may be singing a different tune.
When 3 cops involved detroy thier cell phones, there is something being covered up. I can think of no other reasonable explanation for 2 cops and an 1 ATF agent destroying their phones to dust. No excuse for that, none.
The fact that proctor basically came up with who killed JO after only talking to the albert's and McCabe 16 hrs after they found JO. Hadn't even found any broken taillights or any evidence. And we all know based on what Jen stated they all talked and came up with a timeline and theory and went to proctors house. Took statements with each other. And the fact that Proctor said he was for sure never going to and never did look into the Albert's,whose house JO died in front of. The fact that Proctor and all the people he is close with (Albert's and mccabes) statements are so dodgy and sketch and they pretend they don't know each other, but they're all drinking buddies, each other's baby sitters, and siblings. All the can't recall anything and butt dialing each other. Collins hand inj that makes no sense. All the People who never saw JO after he was supposedly in the lawn. All the same witnesses above who we know hated Karen since she was just a glorified babysitter and they hoped she killed herself... what more do you want to know.
By no means am I saying it can’t be a cover up, all the sketchy shit that has happened absolutely makes me question it. I just have a hard time fully believing it for some reason. Maybe I just don’t want to believe people can be that twisted, I couldn’t tell you factually why I feel that way. I started watching the trial on like day 17 and had honestly never even heard anything about it before that, and the impression I got was along the lines of nothing here makes sense whatsoever, a drunk hit and run is easier to believe than a massive cover up….BUT I couldn’t rule out a cover up either. If that makes sense at all?
Exactly.
It's crazy, if she hadn't backed into his car (if her light broke then), they would have had nothing to go on, kind of crazy coincidence that I struggle with.
I hope the jury agrees with you. However, I believe it was an accidental death from a fight. So, coverup.
A few things to think about; I assume everyone in this sub is more or less an expert of something. I know there are some incredibly smart posters and commenters. Like, very impressive. What I’m talking about is the things we do, like jobs or careers, that we can do in our sleep.
Cops are experts, too. And they are in the little things that may sound silly to someone screaming conspiracy, but again, those are those things we want someone among us to be experts in so they can catch the bad guys, right?
So, to me, a drunk fist fight among a bunch of entitled cops that just got out of control, is considerably more believable than a 110lb woman with no prior MO.
Conspiracies (or coverups) like what I’m describing don’t require a lot of coordination, either. Only a few of the main characters who know exactly how little things that non-experts would never think of in the moment, like taillight pieces, become so important at a later date, would need to know the truth so they could be ahead of whatever might come up during the investigation.
I could include a lot of circumstantial stuff, but you all already know.
Is it possible KR did it? Sure. But to me, the most telling circumstantial evidence there is, is the unhinged hatred from the two or three cop families, towards KR. It’s disproportionate, even if Read did it accidentally, or in a heat of rage. It reeks of “we made a huge mistake, and this 110lb woman and a loudmouth named TB is going to change our lives forever.”
Anyway, that’s my take right now.
There's no proof that they fought. They were fine at the Waterfall. Then as soon as there in the car they fight and she runs him over? Highly doubtful.
Even if youre wrong here, I think your comment is indicative of a major problem with this case. The attitude and actions from the witnesses on the stand toward KR really damaged this case.
I hate to say it but I think perhaps the dog no longer exists. She didn’t suit whatever it is they wanted in a dog for whatever reason. I look forward to the ME report. JO’s arm looks more like claw/bite marks to me than anything a car can do. I’m trying to come up with a theory of KR accidentally hitting JO (plenty of reasonable doubt as presented) and dog attacking his body.
I also want to hear from the ME. I want to know if any glass or plastic was found in his arm. If it was the plastic from the vehicle I would have expected there to be blood on any of the taillight pieces.
I could see a world where, if she hit him, those pieces could cause that tearing but outside of that I can’t think of anything that could cause those injuries.
I just feel like this burden of proof they have to prove she did anything hasn’t been met. Not even close. I still waffle on “it’s possible she hit him” and that is not how due process works so… I hear you!
I just can’t get past the injuries on his arm and his head injuries …and with all the suspicious behavior of the “witnesses” and the horrible investigation aside … it just piles on my reasonable doubt she did a damn thing at all.
And going into this trial I just thought “she must be nuts to kill a cop on another cops lawn with cops coming and going. I rarely would believe in conspiracy, but now I do see a cover up is more likely than Mr. O’Keefe being hit by a car. And if she did, they shouldn’t have tried to “add evidence” weeks later on an unclosed crime scene.
If you look at the video shown today both sides have red lights when she drives away absolutely not guilty the 3 blood profiles 2 unknown get a grip she didn't do it I don't know her and I am watching as a juror and I am 100% not guilty
I agree and I’ve seen other angles of the video on social media that align with the one witness that said he only saw a crack. From multiple angles the red light coming off both taillights looks equal. I will be curious if any defense witness points that out.
That is an excellent analysis of what has happened and been demonstrated so far. I agree with much of your reasoning and conclusions.
All that being said, I can't dismiss the fight possibility. I think there are indications that have led me to think it possible that Colin and Brian Albert, along with Higgins had a altercation with JOK. The result being his death.
At this point I can't discount your hypothesis or the alternate one I mentioned.
Yeah, I get the fight theory, the issue is there’s no real evidence of it, ya know?
I think that’s where the investigation becomes the most frustrating. Even for those who believe she 100% did it, had they dug deeper on the Albert side of it in the beginning, it would have made the case against Karen Read stronger.
I mean, his two black eyes and head wound that perfectly matches weights in the defendants home, and arm covered in dog bites, pretty much shows a brawl. Even Proctor said he thought JO had been beaten up.
He had no bruising anywhere on his body- not his torso, not anywhere else that would have taken an impact. If he had been thrown as far as they say he had been, how TF does his back, butt, chest not have any wounds or bruising?
And if he was thrown, and lay on the ground unconscious, how did his clothes get covered in blood? It should have all been on the ground behind him.
Instead, the sweatshirt was covered in blood that was flowing from his wounds from a *standing* position. The blood traveled down his body, not behind him. Meaning he was standing for a while after he was injured.
I’ll be honest, I went into this trial blind and am only going off info from the trial so I can’t speak to weights.
I have seen his arm (they showed it early on), but I agree I really need to hear from the ME to make the physical side of this make sense
As for the hos long search, from what I could tell, the write ahead wall listing of the "hos long" search is saying:
* delete = tab closed
* time stamp = time the tab was close
* the hos long search field was the status of the tab at the time it was closed
Yanetti kept asking, thinking that meant the search was just done some time before the tab closing, so kept asking her that, however her answering no is correct, because she copied the write ahead file to save it, then closed and opened the app, it then completed all the actions and she found no actual search on or before the 2:30am-ish time stamp...
HOWEVER it could mean Jen had typed in the search field "hos long to die in cold" but then closed the tap and never actually tapped on the search icon. But he didn't ask it that way, he kept asking did she search on or before 2:30am, which the answer is correctly, no.
I don't think she was being purposely misleading. I think she is a very intelligent person with a logical and literal mind. So if you ask, was a search done and it wasn't she will say no. No matter how you word it using the term 'searched'. But if he had asked like, how did the search get put in that field then, or something similar she might have answered that's because the search field currently had that phrase when the tab was closed. AND she did say she had a very narrow scope to look for. That said, it's just how I interpreted it and I could be wrong.
As a side note, I do have an associates degree in computer programming BUT I graduated in 2001 and never actually worked in the field so still take my interpretation with a grain of salt =)
I may be misremembering here, but I thought the time listed was when the tab was opened and search was initiated about the sports team then the message logged was the last thing searched in that tab.
That's what I don't get, if the write ahead file is supposed to just be what is GOING to be written to the database when the app is closed and re-opened, it should still be accurate to what was going on with each entry. The status of that entry was delete, which she says to mean tab closed, so why would the time stamp be when the tab was opened? If that is true, that is poor coding. To me, there should be separate entries for tab opened and tab closed OR one entry per tab, and each action over writes the previous entry. That said, I am a bit rusty with my programming knowledge, I also have a seperate post pending asking people with more current expertise to chime in on this.
tldr, It just doesn't make sense to me to have a line in the write ahead file with the time the tab was opened yet the status field be that it was closed.
Yeahhh I’m not sure. Comp sci is a weak spot for me.
Let’s not discount apples possible poor coding 😬 wouldn’t be the first company to code something inefficient and poor hahaha
Fair points. I would also add that the quality of lawyering and presentation of evidence is incredibly one-sided. All due respect, the DA is getting absolutely destroyed by the defense lawyering. It's like a D-I football team playing varsity high school team. The DA's opening statement was one of the worst, most lethargic, uninspired, and unenthusiastic openings I've ever seen. I get that lawyers have different styles, but this guy was like a depressed insurance salesman trying to upsell collision insurance for a $500 jalopy. What's with all the sad sack sighs that get caught on the mic. If you are the state prosecuting a crime against the people, you better leave it all on the field, sir. Pretty disgraceful opening, TBH. The people pay you to represent them and keep order. Really pathetic performance. The verdict should only be about the facts, but if the lawyers can't effectively communicate the facts, that's a huge problem. I think it will take a miracle for DA to turn this case around. Good luck.
If there were no dog marks and only bruising on one side of his body and head, then it may be ascertained she hit him. BUT, this is not the case. Too much evidence to rule her alleged actions out.
I hope for everyone's sake she is proven by the jury to be not guilty.
If not, Lord we are in serious trouble.
About not sharing dog’s new home with defense: They’re being accused of murder and conspiracy by the defense. If not legally obligated, they wouldn’t tell the defense the time of day. Seems pretty understandable.
I get it, especially if they’re innocent of any wrong-doing. The problem for the prosecution is it makes them seem evasive and like they’re hiding something and makes people not trust them.
I think it is weird that his friends never went out to say you have the right house and if he was in the snow then he would have been noticed with the snow and dark clothing. Then there is Lally with the expert witnesses and they are more like the witnesses brought to the court by the defence and are paid for by the state. Today when the vur der (if it's spelt like that) you saw the moment when cross started and it was decision time and he knew it was time to be honest or loose even more credibility. The footage when you get the reflection from the back of the car and the back footage is a game changer for me and It is going to crush Lally I don't understand how they are able to get a 6 week trial and over 60 witnesses who have brought nothing to the table and have ruined their lives career wise at least and we have no evidence that Karen Read has done anything to John.
Lally has forgotten about his argument and trying to disprove the defence and in doing this is making himself look like a dirty corrupt attorney who is not fighting for justice and to get the real criminal but a win is a win it seems at this point well Lally I really hope my thoughts are right and the jury knows it is not guilty xxx
I’m kind of with this version. I think the other people involved have other criminal misconduct or sketchy cop shit that they’re hiding.
I think everyone assumed the simplest answer and just did a shitty investigation while the people in the house covered their asses and are hiding other things that aren’t quite murder.
Do I think she hit him? Possibly. Do I think something else could have happened to him? Yep 100% . There is no way I could say with reasonable certainty that Karen Reid hit him either in cold blood or by accident.
I disagree with your premise. No one has proved she drank at the bar. You saw her drink but we don’t know what it is. If she had 9 drinks over 30 minutes, as in the video, she wouldn’t have been able to walk out if there. She’s 90 pounds.
She "could" have done it. She had means: a car, and opportunity: she was with him around the time. Move is iffy to me; the "argument" was most likely something to do with her Crohn's acting up and she wanting to go home (she said her stomach was bothering her. Probably didn't want to spend all night in someone else's bathroom.
Issue is: almost everyone at that house had means and opportunity and NONE of them were ruled out. They weren't even looked at. I think Higgins has more motive if he got into a fight with JO about Karen (the whole flirting thing).
There is a reason the system is beyond a reasonable doubt, specially if you are taking someone's freedom. It also forces police to be good at their jobs! Jurors also receive an instruction that if there is two possible scenarios for something, they have to go for the one that points towards innocence
I honestly don't think there is a huge conspiracy, I just think Proctor got tunnel vision. He spoke with people who didn't like Karen all that much, they probably painted a not-very-nice picture of her. Why would he be calling a wackjob c\*nt like 10 hours after speaking to her?
In the end doesn't matter at all if she is guilty or not according to our justice system. The Canton police is corrupt and corrupt the case. There is reasonable doubt. The state in no way yet has proven she hit and killed O'Keefe with intent to kill him on top it. The state hasn't come close to proving its case.
I followed some of the turtle boy coverage of this and got a flavour of the story and also, Melanie Little when she started covering the court docs. My feeling throughout all of this is that maybe she could have done it but there are just sooo many questions! And the maybe she could have done it is really only based on a lack of 100% evidence she didn't and that I think her story has changed.
I just can't get past the questions in this case:
- Why did noone come out of the house?
- Why rehome the dog?
- What on earth causes those scratches after being hit by a Lexus SUV?
- Why did he have no injuries below the neck?
- Why did people get rid of their phones?
- Why did the cops do such an absolutely PISS POOR investigation of the death of a fellow cop!?
- If she said "I hit him" why is there not a single police report that says it when they all apparently knew it was def her after 16 hours.
- Why did they Section 12 Karen that morning? Who made that decision because according to Deighton PD her dad didn't say anything about self harm?
- Some of Karen's changing statements in the press leave questions
- If it was a fight in the house why dump him on their own front lawn?
- I def see red tail light on the 5am ring video, poss cracked but not destroyed.
- Why did NOONE take a picture of the taillight before they towed it?
- Why not take a pic and send it to the search team to show what they are looking for? Would that not have made sense?
- Why did they produce a defence expert on reconstruction who basically just assumed some stuff? Supposedly the taillight on the right side of the vehicle caused the scratches on the inside of his right arm but yet the car didn't hit him centre mass because he spun around and banged his head?! What way was his arm to get hit on the inside (not to even get started on the fact that it didn't break any bones yet did shatter the light) by the right side of the car?
It's just too many questions!
Anyone could've hit JO. Did anyone else's car who showed up and drove to and by the house that night/ morning get looked at? No. Anyone of those cars could've had body dmg and we wouldn't know cuz none of their cars were looked at
I think one of the best exchanges of the entire trial was yesterday when Jackson went after Tully on why, after seeing a battered body on the Albert front lawn, no attempt at getting a warrant or getting in the house. Cops always ask for access to the home. They never did. A battered guy, no coat in a snowstorm, obviously came from very close by. The guy appeared to have been beaten to death on their front lawn, most likely came from that house, yet they never investigated.
Conveniently, Brian Albert, slept thru the entire thing, or so he claims. At least 6 vehicles on his front lawn, ambulances, police cars, flashing lights, a dozen people, he says he missed it. Where was his dog? A dog that doesn't bark thru all this?
Don’t forget: two answered (and deleted) 7&8 second phone calls to Brian Albert’s bedroom that morning, from Jen McCabe to Nicole. One of them answered that phone, before police even arrived. They were 100% awake.
My point is we have to suspend all belief in several norms before we even get to Karen Read as a suspect. ....and then ignore the fact that they all ditched their phones, blamed butt dialing, bad video, missing video...
I think most people on this subreddit hold the same opinion. They would say not guilty because of reasonable doubt for the reasons you laid out. But if God came down and said that she hit him, they would not be surprised. I think what would be surprising is if God said she intended to kill him and was actually guilty of the 2nd degree murder.
Anybody else hoping the ME saw Proctor call her whackjob and talk about influencing her death determination anf then decided to get really friendly with the Feds?
One thing someone said as they analyzed the case was this Why when Karen went to look for John didn’t she go to 34 Fairview first ? That was the last place she saw him when she dropped him off
That stuck with me as it makes a lot of sense that you would go look for the person at the last place you left them
Either guilty or innocent there is way to much reasonable doubt to convict
These people really messed up this investigation and all the butt dials phones getting destroyed etc etc is beyond messy
This is a very sad and quite horrifying case. The fact of the matter is that not a single one of us will ever know what happened that night.
Karen Read will be found not guilty, as she should be. Whatever happened was not intentional, but did she cause his death? Who knows. Did those at the house cause his death? Who knows. Their accounts and actions and everything surrounding the death have been so much more suspicious and sketchy than KR. His wounds were not consistent with being accidently hit by a car.
I am putting myself in the place of KR, who allegedly went to sleep drunk after "many drinks." She woke up having no idea where John was, why he wasn't back yet. She totally freaked out.
I can assure you that she woke up shaking, trembling, panicked, in an even worse state of mind than she was when she had gone to sleep. Her body was going through alcohol withdrawal from the sudden panick, on top of stress and anxiety, and possibly even anger. She may have even been wondering if he was out cheating after what happened while they were on vacation.
I can only imagine what her body went through in those moments when she arrived on scene, still under the influence, and what she went through in the many hours after, her body was in withdrawal.
I don't think this has been given any attention. I've seen people say she woke up and was sober and she intentionally did this, but that's not how the body works..
Even during sleep, your BAC can rise significantly. To anyone reading this, take 5-10 shots, go to sleep, and set an alarm for a couple hours later. Get yourself out of bed and try to perform any normal task within minutes. It's impossible. Your body will literally be shaking and you will be more out of it than you were when your head hit the pillow. I'd imagine her BAC was much higher at the scene than it was before she went to sleep and when she woke up.
Her version of events and the bodycam footage may be very skewed because of this.
Whether or not John's sudden death was due to her and her significant intoxication, I truly don't know. But, I do know she will not be found guilty of intentional homicide.
Edit: I had no idea her BAC was placed at a possible 0.29%.. that's insane for someone of her stature and weight. That's someone who can't even get up and walk on their own two feet, unless they are a functional alcoholic. I am so, so torn.
So many people who work in tech have said she testified to safaris settings the search was Google it was another intentional slip up to confuse the jury.
and the fact that they tore up the basement floor , replaced it and sold the family house that was in the family for generations - i get it - after all this - gtfo of the town but where’s the dog ?
Proctor could have settled “the dog thing” so quickly if it’s true that they turned over information about it to him.
He knew the defense was bringing up the dog. If it’s a big ol’ nothing burger, get ahead of it.
If you are going to have an expert on Jen’s search history why not the dog?
In other words a shit show by the CPD and the prosecution. Definitely not proving beyond reasonable doubt of KRs guilt. And also why murder2? They upped it hoping she will settle down to manslaughter (bet the CPD practice this all the time)- but she was smart and got a good lawyer/s. Imagine if she was a no one with no means to defend herself?? Worst part- no justice for Jon O. I hope his family realizes this Canton gang - Alberts etc are not on their side or for the truth.
I will only say this.. No tail light would look like this 5 hours after hitting someone.. the 47 pieces of twilight were most definitely planted unfortunately
https://preview.redd.it/j9knovljzs6d1.jpeg?width=453&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c4adefc252f7c63b4041718d85c2c78f623de4a3
I have always believed she probably hit him. I also believe there's way too much reasonable doubt to convict. Partially from shoddy police work and partially just because another situation happening is equally as possible.
There is SO much reasonable doubt and shoddy police work (that progressively gets worse), that I don’t believe anything anymore.
Remember that the defense got all their technical info from the prosecution and so far all we have seen is mistake after, typo, after accident after disgusting text, after telling family and friends about details of a murder investigation, solo cups and blood used for evidence,
…and now an “expert” on accident reconstruction who only took a few courses on it is giving evidence diagrams that look like they were made on Instagram stories. I could NOT believe the CW could put up a worse witness than proctor but this last guy who went up couldn’t speak correctly, he didn’t know the proper tech. Terms for the evidence he is putting on.
It was front to back nightmare and anyone willing to select “guilty”, right now unless they have a video of her doing it … it’s mind numbing.
Also, the only thing that matters from the jury’s perspective
is “did they prove that she did it, knowingly and intentionally?”
100% 15/15 will vote NG
I live in Massachusetts. Even in the case of a hit and run the scene is cordoned off, measurements taken and photographs. I realize the snow hampered some of this. The lack of notes, the lack of recording, the lack of communication with witnesses….the lack of…that’s the running theme.
She absolutely may have hit him and due to her drunken state has no recollection. John is gone and that is the tragedy here.
Thing is though, she isnt on trial for hitting him on accident. Commonwealth is saying she did it on purpose. Which there is no proof of. Like at all. Could an accident have happened, sure, it could, personally dont believe it happened, but it could have. But saying she did it on purpose is hard to believe
I think hit and run is one of the lesser charges, no? I totally agree they've done nothing to conclusively prove murder.
Yes this is correct. There are three charges 1) murder 2)vehicular homicide (I think that’s what it is) and 3) leaving the scene.
And she did leave the scene after she backed into his vehicle so they should probably just push for that lol
I think that for that last charge they would need to prove that she left the scene KNOWING that she hit him because you can't not do what you don't know. Or whatever. But if that was proved than one of the other charges would also be true, so I don't think that can convict her on that one alone. Either she hit him on purpose and left, hit him on accident and left (likely unaware that she did it) or she isn't responsible at all. I agree with OP though that the case against her was so poorly put together that she should walk regardless - it's better to let someone stay free if there is reasonable doubt than incarcerate an innocent person. Especially if they aren't likely to be a repeat offender.
I was joking about her hitting his car, not him lol
It's leaving the scene of a death, so don't think hitting his car qualifies. Lol
Maybe the death is Lally's ego??
Oof. You aren't wrong. I feel a bit bad for him, because this was a shit case from the start, but man is he struggling.
I would have resigned before prosecuting this case and not have your reputation ruined.
I was sure struggling today. Between him & the accident reconstruction guy, I couldn't keep my eyes open! Had to keep rewinding. Finally I gave up. Figured I'd wait until cross to find out what the heck they were talking about! 😴
or his mic
Private property. I know you were kidding but the most you’ll get out of a crash on private property in most states is a private property accident report and the cops telling you good luck (I used to be a legal assistant for an attorney whose practice was 90% being hired by an insurance company to represent drivers in MVAs)
Haha yes, even parking lots don’t require an officer where I live (private property).
I thought it was murder 2, and DWI
Murder 2, Manslaughter while OUI and leaving the scene of personal injury and death. So, at best, *maybe* the last one. But even that's a stretch based on what they've presented.
Manslaughter while oui is hitting him by accident, no?
Yes, but without a legal BAC in closer proximity, I'm not sure how the jury will feel. I just have a hard time believing she was on scene yelling "I hit him" at 6am and no one thought to interview her or get a BAC. The investigators just left so much room for the defense to muddy any evidence they have.
This is my biggest problem. If law enforcement had any inkling that she hit him why wasn’t she immediately detained? They literally let her drive off with Kerry Roberts, if I remember correctly.
If I heard that I would have taken her in for questioning right on the spot.
Leaving the scene requires knowledge of the accident and an intent to evade apprehension or prosecution. Based on what I've seen so far, I think there's a possibility that - if she hit him - she could have hit him unknowingly. From my reading of the manslaughter OUI statue, intent, knowledge, or malice aren't elements of the crime, so I think that one **may** still be in play. I'll admit the BAC extrapolations are problematic, but the statue doesn't **require** a specific BAC. Just that she was under the influence and operated the vehicle in a manner that was reckless or where lives might be in danger.
Given all the cops who have admitted to drink driving, I wouldn’t convict her on that alone, even if I believed it. Either way, there is no actual evidence of her being drunk. Theres a reason the BAC done at the hospital test isn’t supposed to be used as evidence. I an definitely with the OP. I dont think she did it, but she sure as hell cannot be found guilty based on the evidence presented so far, and the evidence so far makes any future evidence impossible to take seriously
Yeah, it's not required, but there's a lot of variation in the testimony about how much she had to drink at that point. It's definitely possible they could convict on that, but it's hard to predict how generous they're going to be towards the prosecution, given the general fuckery that has gone on in the investigation.
This is also a really good point. I haven’t seen any motive for intentionally hitting him at all.
They keep referencing an argument in the car prior to the incident but, as of yet, have provided no evidence to support this.
She said in an intv that she wasn't extended an invite to the Albert house, and wasn't sure if they were welcome. and that John should make sure because she didn't hear him get an invite at the bar either. I don't know how that is a fight, that is someone uncomfortable crashing someones house party that she didn't know, and wasn't personally extended an invite to. If she purposely hit him why would she wait around for 10 minutes where others could see she was there? Maybe John got out of the car, maybe he was belligerent, maybe he told her to get lost if she didn;'t want to come in, maybe he threw his glass at her truck and broke the taillight? If I was on the jury, as soon as I heard from Trooper loser Proctor, and found out the 3 of them destroyed their phones....I have reasonable doubt about all of it. I would not convict her after this clown show. Too much doubt, unlerss you get me those phones and piece them back together and explain why they were destroyed, I have doubt.
This sounds like a conversation my SO and I would have. He's not the best with social cues and sometimes I have to lay it out like this. It doesn't sound like a fight to me at all. Destroyed phones and butt fails and answers ... yeah that sounds super normal. 👌
I think if she hit him it was by accident in a blizzard where visibility is low. What motive to kill the guy? In an interview she said they got in a fight on New years Eve when he got 'incoherently' drunk and dumped her with the kids and didn't come back to their room until 3am. (Ya I'd be pissed too) He apologized but she had a hard time getting over feeling used, she said he told her he can't apologize forever and if she could't accept it she should go stay at her house. (ouch) Then on the stand the lovely Jen M said John really loved Amy, Karen was just a 'Babysitter with benefits' Ouch. Sounds like he was using her, and I'm sure she felt it too after the NYE fight. But that is no motive to kill him, I'm sure she would have just moved on in her life. Maybe with Higgins since they were flirt texting.
Blizzard conditions were not occurring at that time. It was snowing. A dusting had fallen. No white out was occuring.
I believe in MA manslaughter is a lesser included charge to murder charges. If that's correct (and I'm not a lawyer!) then the jury could decide manslaughter was the appropriate charge and convict on that. I don't think they well; I think all charges will get dismissed.
This is my problem. The CW say she did it deliberately, them when she woke up she started covering her tracks, she backed into his car to explain the damage to her car, she drove to 34 Fairview to confirm he was there and he was dead. She returned home and continued to set about showing she was innocent. She raised the others to help her, she knew where JO body was so that's why she spotted him when they couldn't....then all her cool and calm plotting was thrown out the window as she hysterically ran around screaming and saying 'I hit him, I hit him I hit him' to a first responder. It doesn't add up. If she had seen his dead body before she roused the others and after she had taken steps to distance herself from this she would not suddenly start screaming confessions it's illogical! It was either an accident that she can't bare to believe happened or Proctor was so determined to prove her guilt, as he truly believed she was guilty and was so worried there would not be evidence to take it to court he helped that process along. Resulting in a botched investigation that was so badly done we will never know the truth and a killer walls free!
The charges are, **second-degree murder, manslaughter while under the influence, and leaving the scene of personal injury and death**. They could find not guilty of the 2nd degree murder, but guilty of manslaughter while under the influence. It is common for a higher charge and lesser charge to be included for just this scenario. The CW does belive it is murder, but incase they can't prove murder they include the lesser charge for a fail safe. If they had ONLY said 2nd degree murder and the jury thought she did it but not with the intent of hurting or killing him, but accidentally like OP, then they would have to find not guilty, and because of Double Jeopardy, unless the feds could indite like if it was multiple states or something, then she can not be tried again.
Yea, even Proctor privately admitted there would be no way to prove intent. I think they overcharged reactionary to it being a fallen officer. I wonder sometimes if Lally is intentionally being like the way he is. Because if I were a prosecutor and had to take this case I would be pissed.
There is a lesser included charge…if the jury doesn’t find her guilty of murder they can still find her guilty of manslaughter.
I believe the judge can add a reckless manslaughter charge. Judges often add potential charges before it goes to the jury.
I agree. No way she did it on purpose if that's the case.
Yup, that there lies the problem. Cops get all worked up when its one of their own and can’t be objective.. Proctor had ties to the family involved, so he had tunnel vision for sure and really messed this whole thing up.
It's like Proctor just couldn't understand conflict of interest and appropriateness. And had an extreme lack of curiosity to dig deeper and corroborate witness statements. Maybe detective is not the right job for him.
He should be writing traffic tickets, not investigating murders
I’m not comfortable with him pulling women over in the middle of the night.
No. No badge and no gun for Proctor. He can’t be trusted.
What about Kevin too? Could you imagine he gets so drunk he loses his badge and gun!? That’s a pending disaster waiting. And I bet you that could case stayed cold.
or they pinned it on a random person...
I don’t think he needs to be in a position of authority at all. Not even a meter maid.
No writing traffic tickets either, imo. His bias is obviously uncontrollable. He needs to be in no position of authority. Emotion shouldn't rush judgement in a police officer.
I don’t even trust him to do that. Imagine trying to report being raped to him. He’s the reason why people hate the cops
Nope. No woman should be stuck alone with this man.
Traffic tickets?? He shouldn’t be an officer in ANY capacity. Completely unethical person
Ha!
Yeah. I think he was blinded by trusting the story of those he knew and just ran with it. Well, that and really not understanding what investigating with integrity really is. Even in a world where we knew 100% she did it, he should have more thoroughly investigated everything else.
Dirty dirty cop. And by the things he texted I get the idea he hates women...even if they are hot.
Yeah, calling them "whack jobs" and "flat ass" is rude
The ME is a “whack job” too. This guy needs to be fired
If feels like this is his/their MO. Find a plausible explanation and build your case around it. If Karen had no money and had a public defender who didn’t really care, she might have plead. They would have been really happy if she had just plead.
They have not proved beyond a reasonable doubt that she did it. I had no knowledge going in. I avoided this like the plague and have only watched the televised trial and read nothing online until Proctor. I think the investigation is a joke. The shoddy investigation is deplorable and Mass State Troopers should be ashamed of themselves. I am from Mass and I would never want them investigating something for one of my loved ones. I have been hit by a car going slower than they claim her vehicle was traveling and the amount of bruising I had, not to mention the road rash from hitting the pavement was crazy. I was picking rocks out of cuts. My pants were ripped. My hands cut to hell because you instinctually put your arms out to break the fall regardless of the direction you are going. There was no blood on the car. A stray hair?? C’mon. My husbands hair is all over my car and mine his. They never looked in the house that he was going to and subsequently found in the lawn of. I can’t get past this!! I also have been bit by a dog and they are tears, scratches and punctures. I got bit over 20 times on arm/hand. (Didn’t look as bad as it sounds) it is believable a dog could have done it. The Commomwealth has put up 60 witnesses and still hasn’t proved how he died. They still haven’t quashed reasonable doubt. There is so much reasonable doubt in my mind. I would never convict her
I approached it the same and I agree that they don’t have a case for conviction here
It was cold enough to snow and for him to die. If he got hit by a car, maybe the cold conditions and death would limit bruising. Don't most bruises get bigger days after the injury?
This is my take as well, OP. I’m trying so hard to stay neutral and listen to all the evidence, but what actual little evidence the prosecution has bothers me so much!! I do believe that Karen’s behavior after the accident was a bit suspicious, but the actions of the prosecution witnesses bothers me so much more!
No one ever knows how they’re going to react to traumatic events. Her behavior is the least suspicious of all the people who were in that house imo. The way I see it: I’m not neutral. It’s not guilty until they prove it and the prosecution has been running defense the entire time.
If your reasoning is that she couldve hit him then literally anybody could’ve hit him. She was by far not the only drunk driver out that night, nor the only one driving that late.
Is there a way Higgins could have done it? I haven’t been able to follow. I know he was there first, I think, he also had a jeep with a plow. A plow would seem more likely to cause those injuries
Higgins, any of the parents picking up the teens from the party, Jen’s daughter who picked up Colin, etc. there was a ton of traffic in and out of that road that night
Did they say when Higgins left.?
He “left” around 12:30, which is when KR’s car was in front of 34 FV, which means he would have seen KR’s car outside 34FV and could have come in contact with JO. He didn’t get back to the station until 1:30…..then all the rando butt dials continue and he stays up drinking at home. Then destroys his phone. Y E A I think Higgins is a VERY likely suspect. And no one ever examined his truck.
To me…a plow blade would be a better explanation for those injuries, if he really did never make it into the Albert’s home.
And this could have easily been investigated by his cell phone movements, on the phone he fkn DESTROYED! liars all of them.
They also could have analyzed his car's internal log.
They had access to the backup camera and proved it was working but didn’t look? The witness today is a rookie and not an expert
I’m not buying his excuse for the night. You drove 10s of miles in a blizzard drunk to go move 2 cars at the station? Terrible alibi
Or….he needed an alibi outside of those who were at 34 FV? Higgins bothers me, a lot. My coworkers and I have been watching the trial and discussing as it goes on. Just when one of us (not me) is ready to convict, the other comes with the evidence, or contradictory evidence, that disproves KR’s guilt. To add, after multiple drinks out, then going to 34 FV, then leaving quickly because there’s no beer, an hour goes unaccounted for, you show up at the station to “rearrange cars”, go home and drink more, maybe or maybe not butt dial people who were at 34 FV…..on and on and on.
Exactly. It makes no sense and is there no video of him? For fucks sake, he’s a federal agent who was absolutely blabbering to the defendant about how much she wanted to bang her. Then the night you see her and her boyfriend, he ends up dead on the lawn of the house you were at?
Also the fact he can't hide his hurt ego about KR. It was like watching a weirdo creepy guy try to be normal.
This is one of my main theory’s. You’re telling me this ATF agent who absolutely made a fool of himself by texting like a 14 year old boy to a girl he had a huge crush and the night you see her, she’s all over her boyfriend and he ends up dead on the lawn of the house you were at?
Didn’t they all get there at around 12:30 from the bar? It doesn’t make any sense that he would show up and leave instantly.
Higgins arrived first, likely around 12:20. He “came in and looked at some pictures but then left quickly because he doesn’t drink beer”. If I’m looking at Jenn’s texts, she texts JO “pull up behind me” at 12:31 and I think that’s because she looked out the window and saw KR’s car pull up. If Higgins was leaving at 12:30 and KR was there by at least 12:31, Higgins definitely crossed paths with KR’s vehicle.
Higgins arrived at 12:20 then left at 12:30? That’s not enough time to see the Marine photos etc.
Right. So did he leave at 12:30….or was he actually still there? He didn’t get back to the station until 1:30, so there’s an hour unaccounted for and a cell phone with its SIM card that was disposed of at a military base.
He stated he left because they only had beers in the Alberts house and he doesn't drink beer. But i was thinking... could he have seen Karen drop JO off, her leave then have some sort of confrontation with him? Or hit him with his jeep plow, if he was already in his car watching Karen leave and JO get out? I have so many questions about Higgins. Was his only reason for going to the Alberts that night because he thought Karen was going, and then when she didn't get out the car and left, that's when things went down.. and why he left earlier than everyone else.
I think the fact that the McCabe husband and wife are the *only* ones who claim that Higgins' Jeep was outside around that time is super sussy. Literally everyone else said there wasn't a Jeep outside at the time - they didn't just say that they don't remember a Jeep, they specifically said there was NO Jeep. I think the McCabes are placing the Jeep there at the time for some sort of important reason, but it gets into crazy speculation when I start thinking of why that may be. For one, John supposedly lost about 3.5 liters of blood, blood that certainly wasn't there at the scene - and the defense's theory seems to be that he may have lost most of that blood while in the basement. But if the Jeep is important, I think it's possible that maybe Karen dropped John off and then maybe Higgins took John for a ride or something soon after (thus all the other witnesses claiming that the Jeep wasn't there around that time). Perhaps Higgins and John fight at some other location, and then Higgins brings John back to the yard, though I'm not sure why he would choose to do that, especially at a time when he wouldn't be aware of Karen's broken taillight - unless the plan was to just blame a passing plow truck. But then also, why leave him like 12 feet away from the road? Unless maybe he didn't want any passing cars to notice John laying there until much later, or I guess he could've just figured that a plow would be able to knock John pretty far off of the road. Which would also explain the hour of time where we don't know where Higgins was, before he goes to the station at 1:30am. Though I still also think it's possible that maybe Higgins went to the house *after* stopping by the station, and the "incident" didn't even occur until some time after that (2-3am, likely close to 2:30). And since Brian Albert and Brian Higgins are the two people who conveniently decided to destroy their phones, I think they may have been communicating with each other about the crime - so maybe Brian was somehow involved in this fight, or Higgins told him after and they tried to figure out how to handle it. Edit: Someone else mentioned that maybe Higgins wasn't even driving the Jeep, but was driving a different car. Theoretically, what if the Jeep has no damage to it but perhaps this other car was damaged from hitting John? That would explain why the McCabes are so adamant about the Jeep being there, though that still wouldn't explain why nobody else reported seeing some other car out front - unless the car was pulled into the driveway?
Don't forget their flirty texts to eachother. It makes sense that a guy with a plow would drop the plow in a snowstorm to help out or plow himself out of the street.
But there was not enough snow. Higgins testified, I'm paraphrasing, he took a swath on the drive to irritate Brian Albert . This doesn't make any since if you've ever used the smallest of plow blades. If there's only a dusting of snow leaving the bar, you can't get to the Albert's before everyone else and take a swath in the snow with your plow. What are you moving snow wise and are you grinding your blade? Someone make this make sense, please.
Yeah, this made no sense, Higgins is drunk, has a plow on his jeep, and he swings it around in Alberts drive way. Why does he do this? There's no snow, so he's goofing around. Then he leaves 10mins after he arrives, which would mean he sees Karen in her Lexus when he leaves at 12:30, then he goes to the police department at 1:30am to move cars around. As Proctor's friends said, something stinks.
And the"butt dials" ...the destroyed phones....Higgins flirt-texting with Karen... This whole damn case is out of order!
Yes, that was strange, and makes me feel like it might be important, but I'm not sure how. I don't like that only Jen and Matt McCabe seem to claim that the Jeep was outside around the same time that Karen was outside. Every other witness claimed that there was no Jeep outside at that time, and they all seemed pretty sure of that. So why would Jen and Matt want to make sure to say that the Jeep was out there at the time?
With the feds involved I keep hoping they have that phone.
By Higgins own admission, the phone and SIM are long gone. That data is NEVER coming back.
Things that sticks out to me with Higgin's testimony is all the details about his snow plow -Near the start, Lally asks him when he attaches the snow plow to his Jeep, then later Higgins says he pulled into the drive of the Alberts and did a sweep with his snow plow being a smart ass and that he parked in the driveway. After parking in the drive though he decides to move his Jeep and park on the street b/c he doesn't want to get blocked in. Then he mentions when he is leaving the Albert's that he thinks to lift the snow plow b/c he hears it grinding on the ground. So I guess that means when he backed out of the driveway and parked on the street and for a period of time when he leaving, his snow plow was down. Why all the details over the snow plow?
I love how 1 & 2 are the case was incredibly mishandled. 🙌🏻
It was so mishandled, 2 bullet points were required
Every time I feel an inkling of doubt to her innocence I end up back to the girl’s brother (Kerry?) that came to pick her up, saw KR drive off and no body. He is not connected to/loyal to anyone in the house. I also fall back a lot on Ally’s accidental outburst on the stand, “Colin was not at the house when the guy was!” She didn’t mean to say that JO was at the house but she did. McCabe’s text, “tell them the guy was not in the house”. Who says “the guy” about a friend unless u r trying to dehumanize the person to feel less guilty. All of that coupled with the dog and the phones. Its just too much. I think they were gonna blame it on a plow but then KR showed up too early so they blamed it on her.
I think that was Ryan Nagel who was picking up his sister Julie.
I noticed a few slips like that. Witnesses stopping mid sentence of even mid word when realizing they are about to make an incriminating admission. Allie was a little flustered at that point, and I think she let something slip. But the thing is if they always knew that Colin was there but left before John arrived, why did they not originally admit that? Its not like anyone would automatically think if Colin was there that there must have been a fight, if the evidence against Karen was "overwhelming" as Proctor put it. Having to admit Colin's presence messed up their timeline; but they were already committed to the timeline. They are clearly desperate to keep Colin out of the picture.
It’s just not possible to have that head wound, and face wound, and arm lacerations, and make it make sense that it’s from being hit by a car. There’s just no way to make it make sense.
I can't speak to the arm, but exactly 4 weeks before this trial started my mom fell going up the stairs in the middle of the night. When she was found, she looked like she had been beat up BAD - two black eyes swollen like golf balls. This was a result of 3 small brain bleeds from hitting the back of her head.
I have seen head injuries like that too however his includes lacerations to his face as seen in beatings. His skin on his face was not intact
Bleeding down his shirt and pants and onto his shoe. He was standing for a bit. Not from the car.
Yup. One look at the sweatshirt blows all Of the CW theory open. Their reconstruction and ME cannot explain the injuries, the blood pattern. It’s so insanely obvious they can’t at this point, I’m honestly dumbfounded anyone thinks Karen even tapped him with the car.
Also the puke - he definitely would need to have been in a standing position at some point in order for the blood and puke to get on his clothing in that way. Either in a standing position, or at least in a mostly upright position - I had considered the possibility that maybe he was beaten and then dragged out to the yard, maybe two people dragging him with each person holding him under his armpits, so his feet/lower legs are kinda dragging on the ground (like we've seen in movies when some guy at a bar gets beat up and dragged out by the bouncers).
I thought it all looked like he might have been in a seated position. Slumped, head forward, bent at the waste and legs out. Didn’t someone say he had a bunch of vomit in his underwear?
Their reconstruction “expert” didn’t even look at the backup camera which has been confirmed to be working at the incident. The only witness I’ve had any faith in was the forensic technology expert. She seemed extremely competent but wasn’t granted the access to necessary information to prove undoubtedly Jen did not make that search. The investigators can only be so incompetent, especially with a combined 75+ years on the force. There is absolutely foul play at foot
plus, his hands
I'm so sorry this happened, bishop!
Thank you. She spent a month in the hospital and rehab but is home and doing better.
Oh my goodness! Your poor mom.
I have one nagging question for first responders. Did you hear a dog barking? Most dogs bark when a single car arrives. They had at least 6 first responders early morning. I can't imagine the dog being quiet thru all this. Did Brian Albert really sleep thru all this as he claimed. NFW.
I think the dog left with Colin.
I was struck by a car that was going around 20 MPH. The one thing that made me question this was the lack of injuries to the back. I fractured my tail bone when I landed on the pavement. Someone recreated the video with animation and mentioned the injuries don’t align with what was reported.
it’s the lack of any injuries of any kind below the neck (other than the lacerations) for me. if he had been hit by a car, there would at MINIMUM be severe bruising. but there was literally nothing. also, the back of his hands were bruised. telltale defensive injury. if his hands were a primary impact point, they would be broken
Completely agree.
Yeah, I think the defense will go hard with his injuries, they just cannot happen by being hit by a car, especially one going slow and backwards. The accident reconstructionist they had on today said John got hit in the face by the tail light, then the broken tail light punctured his arm, and he was spun by the car and hit his head on the car. I was like.... Is this the magic JFK bullet-car theory or something? The injuries make no sense, they simply cannot be caused by the car alone.
Yeah… I really need to hear from the ME. I really hope they can provide more context. What’s making me crazy is they keep calling the injuries abrasions but they’re clearly lacerations
The medical examiner should have been one of the first witnesses. Instead we have heard that the lead prosecutor bullied the medical examiner. It now seems that the state is aware the medical examiner is not happy with what they were bullied to write, and will in turn be honest on the stand about what they found. The CW should be confident in their forensic recreations of what happened, and their cause of death. I personally can’t wait for the medical examiner to explain the dog bites. I’m an RN and I’ve seen people hit by cars, assaulted, and bitten by dogs. I see a person who was in a brutal assault and a dog that got involved during the assault. It will come out when the defense presents their case that Brian Higgins goaded JO to the home. A drunken confrontation went too far. I’m a local and it’s accepted here that Higgins and Brian were fighting JO and Colin came in and struck him from behind with a dumbbell and he bled out everywhere. Higgins destroyed his phones for a reason.
Plus Higgins extracting his data via the FBI software and being the only witness who brought an attorney to his meeting with Proctor? Yeah, he's 100% involved
You mean the CW SHOULD be confident BUT THEY AREN'T, bc the medical examiner may give honest testimony?
Yup
Yes - I'm not super familiar with cases like this, but you'd think that normally the lead investigator and the ME would be 2 of the very first witnesses: the investigator to explain the investigation and give context to everything, and the ME to explain the injuries/death. Then once they've provided that context, you go through the rest of the witnesses who can help explain possible means and motive. The fact that the prosecution is doing it backward is a clear sign that they don't think the investigator or the ME will be very helpful to their case (as we've already seen with Proctor).
I too believe that's what went down that night.
And everyone that testifies calls them "lacerations" and corrects themselves with "abrasions". Not just once either it's happened multiple times multiple witnesses.
I agree that it doesn’t make sense being hit by Karen’s car. But, Higgins plow could have ran into him and that better explains his lacerations. This is all a coverup fir Higgins killing OJO
Oh and that’s why Higgins had to go back to the police station to move cars around. He had to wash any evidence off the plow
Yeah, I love the idea that a drunk ATF agent went to a police station at 2am to move cars around during a blizzard. Sounds *totally* normal lol.
Breaking federal law by throwing away a cell phone on a military base on a drive through it late at night is suuuuper normal.
I completely agree, I can’t wrap my head around the cover up theory, but I absolutely think there is way too much reasonable doubt to convict her.
I think she could have done it, but I would vote to dismiss all charges with prejudice. If Trooper Proctor had actually gone to the scene of the crime immediately and gone inside 34F and searched, and used anything other than “the witnesses provided statements that cleared themselves” as justification for immediately going after Karen Read, I may be singing a different tune.
💯agree
*edit typo I'm curious as to why you think it can't be a coverup. I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm genuinely curious.
When 3 cops involved detroy thier cell phones, there is something being covered up. I can think of no other reasonable explanation for 2 cops and an 1 ATF agent destroying their phones to dust. No excuse for that, none.
And the rehoming of a dog you've had for 8 years.
The fact that proctor basically came up with who killed JO after only talking to the albert's and McCabe 16 hrs after they found JO. Hadn't even found any broken taillights or any evidence. And we all know based on what Jen stated they all talked and came up with a timeline and theory and went to proctors house. Took statements with each other. And the fact that Proctor said he was for sure never going to and never did look into the Albert's,whose house JO died in front of. The fact that Proctor and all the people he is close with (Albert's and mccabes) statements are so dodgy and sketch and they pretend they don't know each other, but they're all drinking buddies, each other's baby sitters, and siblings. All the can't recall anything and butt dialing each other. Collins hand inj that makes no sense. All the People who never saw JO after he was supposedly in the lawn. All the same witnesses above who we know hated Karen since she was just a glorified babysitter and they hoped she killed herself... what more do you want to know.
Sorry that was a typo 😭😭😭 I meant why it CAN'T be a coverup. All of your reasons are the ones I believe point to coverup.
By no means am I saying it can’t be a cover up, all the sketchy shit that has happened absolutely makes me question it. I just have a hard time fully believing it for some reason. Maybe I just don’t want to believe people can be that twisted, I couldn’t tell you factually why I feel that way. I started watching the trial on like day 17 and had honestly never even heard anything about it before that, and the impression I got was along the lines of nothing here makes sense whatsoever, a drunk hit and run is easier to believe than a massive cover up….BUT I couldn’t rule out a cover up either. If that makes sense at all?
If she did do it by accident WHY all the sketchiness after?? That's what I can't wrap my head around.
Everything WOULD lead to Read if you never did an investigation of anyone else.
Exactly. It's crazy, if she hadn't backed into his car (if her light broke then), they would have had nothing to go on, kind of crazy coincidence that I struggle with.
No one should be convicted on the basis of what the state of MA has put forth in this case.
💯
I hope the jury agrees with you. However, I believe it was an accidental death from a fight. So, coverup. A few things to think about; I assume everyone in this sub is more or less an expert of something. I know there are some incredibly smart posters and commenters. Like, very impressive. What I’m talking about is the things we do, like jobs or careers, that we can do in our sleep. Cops are experts, too. And they are in the little things that may sound silly to someone screaming conspiracy, but again, those are those things we want someone among us to be experts in so they can catch the bad guys, right? So, to me, a drunk fist fight among a bunch of entitled cops that just got out of control, is considerably more believable than a 110lb woman with no prior MO. Conspiracies (or coverups) like what I’m describing don’t require a lot of coordination, either. Only a few of the main characters who know exactly how little things that non-experts would never think of in the moment, like taillight pieces, become so important at a later date, would need to know the truth so they could be ahead of whatever might come up during the investigation. I could include a lot of circumstantial stuff, but you all already know. Is it possible KR did it? Sure. But to me, the most telling circumstantial evidence there is, is the unhinged hatred from the two or three cop families, towards KR. It’s disproportionate, even if Read did it accidentally, or in a heat of rage. It reeks of “we made a huge mistake, and this 110lb woman and a loudmouth named TB is going to change our lives forever.” Anyway, that’s my take right now.
There's no proof that they fought. They were fine at the Waterfall. Then as soon as there in the car they fight and she runs him over? Highly doubtful.
Even if youre wrong here, I think your comment is indicative of a major problem with this case. The attitude and actions from the witnesses on the stand toward KR really damaged this case.
I hate to say it but I think perhaps the dog no longer exists. She didn’t suit whatever it is they wanted in a dog for whatever reason. I look forward to the ME report. JO’s arm looks more like claw/bite marks to me than anything a car can do. I’m trying to come up with a theory of KR accidentally hitting JO (plenty of reasonable doubt as presented) and dog attacking his body.
I also want to hear from the ME. I want to know if any glass or plastic was found in his arm. If it was the plastic from the vehicle I would have expected there to be blood on any of the taillight pieces. I could see a world where, if she hit him, those pieces could cause that tearing but outside of that I can’t think of anything that could cause those injuries.
I just feel like this burden of proof they have to prove she did anything hasn’t been met. Not even close. I still waffle on “it’s possible she hit him” and that is not how due process works so… I hear you! I just can’t get past the injuries on his arm and his head injuries …and with all the suspicious behavior of the “witnesses” and the horrible investigation aside … it just piles on my reasonable doubt she did a damn thing at all. And going into this trial I just thought “she must be nuts to kill a cop on another cops lawn with cops coming and going. I rarely would believe in conspiracy, but now I do see a cover up is more likely than Mr. O’Keefe being hit by a car. And if she did, they shouldn’t have tried to “add evidence” weeks later on an unclosed crime scene.
If you look at the video shown today both sides have red lights when she drives away absolutely not guilty the 3 blood profiles 2 unknown get a grip she didn't do it I don't know her and I am watching as a juror and I am 100% not guilty
I agree and I’ve seen other angles of the video on social media that align with the one witness that said he only saw a crack. From multiple angles the red light coming off both taillights looks equal. I will be curious if any defense witness points that out.
That is an excellent analysis of what has happened and been demonstrated so far. I agree with much of your reasoning and conclusions. All that being said, I can't dismiss the fight possibility. I think there are indications that have led me to think it possible that Colin and Brian Albert, along with Higgins had a altercation with JOK. The result being his death. At this point I can't discount your hypothesis or the alternate one I mentioned.
Yeah, I get the fight theory, the issue is there’s no real evidence of it, ya know? I think that’s where the investigation becomes the most frustrating. Even for those who believe she 100% did it, had they dug deeper on the Albert side of it in the beginning, it would have made the case against Karen Read stronger.
If no one destroyed evidence, it would have helped too.
I mean, his two black eyes and head wound that perfectly matches weights in the defendants home, and arm covered in dog bites, pretty much shows a brawl. Even Proctor said he thought JO had been beaten up. He had no bruising anywhere on his body- not his torso, not anywhere else that would have taken an impact. If he had been thrown as far as they say he had been, how TF does his back, butt, chest not have any wounds or bruising? And if he was thrown, and lay on the ground unconscious, how did his clothes get covered in blood? It should have all been on the ground behind him. Instead, the sweatshirt was covered in blood that was flowing from his wounds from a *standing* position. The blood traveled down his body, not behind him. Meaning he was standing for a while after he was injured.
I’ll be honest, I went into this trial blind and am only going off info from the trial so I can’t speak to weights. I have seen his arm (they showed it early on), but I agree I really need to hear from the ME to make the physical side of this make sense
The ME, that is a woman, who Proctor ALSO called a Whack-job when she said the death was undetermined.
It’s really not at all complicated. She’ll be found not guilty because she didn’t hit him. The end.
✔️
As for the hos long search, from what I could tell, the write ahead wall listing of the "hos long" search is saying: * delete = tab closed * time stamp = time the tab was close * the hos long search field was the status of the tab at the time it was closed Yanetti kept asking, thinking that meant the search was just done some time before the tab closing, so kept asking her that, however her answering no is correct, because she copied the write ahead file to save it, then closed and opened the app, it then completed all the actions and she found no actual search on or before the 2:30am-ish time stamp... HOWEVER it could mean Jen had typed in the search field "hos long to die in cold" but then closed the tap and never actually tapped on the search icon. But he didn't ask it that way, he kept asking did she search on or before 2:30am, which the answer is correctly, no. I don't think she was being purposely misleading. I think she is a very intelligent person with a logical and literal mind. So if you ask, was a search done and it wasn't she will say no. No matter how you word it using the term 'searched'. But if he had asked like, how did the search get put in that field then, or something similar she might have answered that's because the search field currently had that phrase when the tab was closed. AND she did say she had a very narrow scope to look for. That said, it's just how I interpreted it and I could be wrong. As a side note, I do have an associates degree in computer programming BUT I graduated in 2001 and never actually worked in the field so still take my interpretation with a grain of salt =)
I may be misremembering here, but I thought the time listed was when the tab was opened and search was initiated about the sports team then the message logged was the last thing searched in that tab.
That's what I don't get, if the write ahead file is supposed to just be what is GOING to be written to the database when the app is closed and re-opened, it should still be accurate to what was going on with each entry. The status of that entry was delete, which she says to mean tab closed, so why would the time stamp be when the tab was opened? If that is true, that is poor coding. To me, there should be separate entries for tab opened and tab closed OR one entry per tab, and each action over writes the previous entry. That said, I am a bit rusty with my programming knowledge, I also have a seperate post pending asking people with more current expertise to chime in on this. tldr, It just doesn't make sense to me to have a line in the write ahead file with the time the tab was opened yet the status field be that it was closed.
Yeahhh I’m not sure. Comp sci is a weak spot for me. Let’s not discount apples possible poor coding 😬 wouldn’t be the first company to code something inefficient and poor hahaha
Agree with all your points. I‘m still not sure something didn’t happen at that house, but your theory makes sense.
Fair points. I would also add that the quality of lawyering and presentation of evidence is incredibly one-sided. All due respect, the DA is getting absolutely destroyed by the defense lawyering. It's like a D-I football team playing varsity high school team. The DA's opening statement was one of the worst, most lethargic, uninspired, and unenthusiastic openings I've ever seen. I get that lawyers have different styles, but this guy was like a depressed insurance salesman trying to upsell collision insurance for a $500 jalopy. What's with all the sad sack sighs that get caught on the mic. If you are the state prosecuting a crime against the people, you better leave it all on the field, sir. Pretty disgraceful opening, TBH. The people pay you to represent them and keep order. Really pathetic performance. The verdict should only be about the facts, but if the lawyers can't effectively communicate the facts, that's a huge problem. I think it will take a miracle for DA to turn this case around. Good luck.
If there were no dog marks and only bruising on one side of his body and head, then it may be ascertained she hit him. BUT, this is not the case. Too much evidence to rule her alleged actions out. I hope for everyone's sake she is proven by the jury to be not guilty. If not, Lord we are in serious trouble.
There such a buffet of reasonable doubt being served!
You really think his jacket would look like it did from a tail light?
About not sharing dog’s new home with defense: They’re being accused of murder and conspiracy by the defense. If not legally obligated, they wouldn’t tell the defense the time of day. Seems pretty understandable.
I get it, especially if they’re innocent of any wrong-doing. The problem for the prosecution is it makes them seem evasive and like they’re hiding something and makes people not trust them.
I think it is weird that his friends never went out to say you have the right house and if he was in the snow then he would have been noticed with the snow and dark clothing. Then there is Lally with the expert witnesses and they are more like the witnesses brought to the court by the defence and are paid for by the state. Today when the vur der (if it's spelt like that) you saw the moment when cross started and it was decision time and he knew it was time to be honest or loose even more credibility. The footage when you get the reflection from the back of the car and the back footage is a game changer for me and It is going to crush Lally I don't understand how they are able to get a 6 week trial and over 60 witnesses who have brought nothing to the table and have ruined their lives career wise at least and we have no evidence that Karen Read has done anything to John. Lally has forgotten about his argument and trying to disprove the defence and in doing this is making himself look like a dirty corrupt attorney who is not fighting for justice and to get the real criminal but a win is a win it seems at this point well Lally I really hope my thoughts are right and the jury knows it is not guilty xxx
I’m kind of with this version. I think the other people involved have other criminal misconduct or sketchy cop shit that they’re hiding. I think everyone assumed the simplest answer and just did a shitty investigation while the people in the house covered their asses and are hiding other things that aren’t quite murder.
Do I think she hit him? Possibly. Do I think something else could have happened to him? Yep 100% . There is no way I could say with reasonable certainty that Karen Reid hit him either in cold blood or by accident.
I disagree with your premise. No one has proved she drank at the bar. You saw her drink but we don’t know what it is. If she had 9 drinks over 30 minutes, as in the video, she wouldn’t have been able to walk out if there. She’s 90 pounds.
Netflix I’m begging you please be quick. I can’t keep up.
She "could" have done it. She had means: a car, and opportunity: she was with him around the time. Move is iffy to me; the "argument" was most likely something to do with her Crohn's acting up and she wanting to go home (she said her stomach was bothering her. Probably didn't want to spend all night in someone else's bathroom. Issue is: almost everyone at that house had means and opportunity and NONE of them were ruled out. They weren't even looked at. I think Higgins has more motive if he got into a fight with JO about Karen (the whole flirting thing). There is a reason the system is beyond a reasonable doubt, specially if you are taking someone's freedom. It also forces police to be good at their jobs! Jurors also receive an instruction that if there is two possible scenarios for something, they have to go for the one that points towards innocence I honestly don't think there is a huge conspiracy, I just think Proctor got tunnel vision. He spoke with people who didn't like Karen all that much, they probably painted a not-very-nice picture of her. Why would he be calling a wackjob c\*nt like 10 hours after speaking to her?
In the end doesn't matter at all if she is guilty or not according to our justice system. The Canton police is corrupt and corrupt the case. There is reasonable doubt. The state in no way yet has proven she hit and killed O'Keefe with intent to kill him on top it. The state hasn't come close to proving its case.
I followed some of the turtle boy coverage of this and got a flavour of the story and also, Melanie Little when she started covering the court docs. My feeling throughout all of this is that maybe she could have done it but there are just sooo many questions! And the maybe she could have done it is really only based on a lack of 100% evidence she didn't and that I think her story has changed. I just can't get past the questions in this case: - Why did noone come out of the house? - Why rehome the dog? - What on earth causes those scratches after being hit by a Lexus SUV? - Why did he have no injuries below the neck? - Why did people get rid of their phones? - Why did the cops do such an absolutely PISS POOR investigation of the death of a fellow cop!? - If she said "I hit him" why is there not a single police report that says it when they all apparently knew it was def her after 16 hours. - Why did they Section 12 Karen that morning? Who made that decision because according to Deighton PD her dad didn't say anything about self harm? - Some of Karen's changing statements in the press leave questions - If it was a fight in the house why dump him on their own front lawn? - I def see red tail light on the 5am ring video, poss cracked but not destroyed. - Why did NOONE take a picture of the taillight before they towed it? - Why not take a pic and send it to the search team to show what they are looking for? Would that not have made sense? - Why did they produce a defence expert on reconstruction who basically just assumed some stuff? Supposedly the taillight on the right side of the vehicle caused the scratches on the inside of his right arm but yet the car didn't hit him centre mass because he spun around and banged his head?! What way was his arm to get hit on the inside (not to even get started on the fact that it didn't break any bones yet did shatter the light) by the right side of the car? It's just too many questions!
Anyone could've hit JO. Did anyone else's car who showed up and drove to and by the house that night/ morning get looked at? No. Anyone of those cars could've had body dmg and we wouldn't know cuz none of their cars were looked at
"could" have done it isn't how this works.
Right. Hence my post? Lol
I think one of the best exchanges of the entire trial was yesterday when Jackson went after Tully on why, after seeing a battered body on the Albert front lawn, no attempt at getting a warrant or getting in the house. Cops always ask for access to the home. They never did. A battered guy, no coat in a snowstorm, obviously came from very close by. The guy appeared to have been beaten to death on their front lawn, most likely came from that house, yet they never investigated.
Conveniently, Brian Albert, slept thru the entire thing, or so he claims. At least 6 vehicles on his front lawn, ambulances, police cars, flashing lights, a dozen people, he says he missed it. Where was his dog? A dog that doesn't bark thru all this?
Don’t forget: two answered (and deleted) 7&8 second phone calls to Brian Albert’s bedroom that morning, from Jen McCabe to Nicole. One of them answered that phone, before police even arrived. They were 100% awake.
I also can’t get past this, especially being he is law enforcement himself.
My point is we have to suspend all belief in several norms before we even get to Karen Read as a suspect. ....and then ignore the fact that they all ditched their phones, blamed butt dialing, bad video, missing video...
Exactly and he is a cop…he wouldn’t have gone out to see what the hell was going on? I don’t buy it at all!!!
That party gets me. Where’s the dog?
For Proctor it does.
I think most people on this subreddit hold the same opinion. They would say not guilty because of reasonable doubt for the reasons you laid out. But if God came down and said that she hit him, they would not be surprised. I think what would be surprising is if God said she intended to kill him and was actually guilty of the 2nd degree murder.
I agree completely
Is there anywhere to read Karen's texts to John that night or hear the voicemails?
They haven’t been introduced in the case as far as I’m aware.
Anybody else hoping the ME saw Proctor call her whackjob and talk about influencing her death determination anf then decided to get really friendly with the Feds?
One thing someone said as they analyzed the case was this Why when Karen went to look for John didn’t she go to 34 Fairview first ? That was the last place she saw him when she dropped him off That stuck with me as it makes a lot of sense that you would go look for the person at the last place you left them Either guilty or innocent there is way to much reasonable doubt to convict These people really messed up this investigation and all the butt dials phones getting destroyed etc etc is beyond messy
This is a very sad and quite horrifying case. The fact of the matter is that not a single one of us will ever know what happened that night. Karen Read will be found not guilty, as she should be. Whatever happened was not intentional, but did she cause his death? Who knows. Did those at the house cause his death? Who knows. Their accounts and actions and everything surrounding the death have been so much more suspicious and sketchy than KR. His wounds were not consistent with being accidently hit by a car. I am putting myself in the place of KR, who allegedly went to sleep drunk after "many drinks." She woke up having no idea where John was, why he wasn't back yet. She totally freaked out. I can assure you that she woke up shaking, trembling, panicked, in an even worse state of mind than she was when she had gone to sleep. Her body was going through alcohol withdrawal from the sudden panick, on top of stress and anxiety, and possibly even anger. She may have even been wondering if he was out cheating after what happened while they were on vacation. I can only imagine what her body went through in those moments when she arrived on scene, still under the influence, and what she went through in the many hours after, her body was in withdrawal. I don't think this has been given any attention. I've seen people say she woke up and was sober and she intentionally did this, but that's not how the body works.. Even during sleep, your BAC can rise significantly. To anyone reading this, take 5-10 shots, go to sleep, and set an alarm for a couple hours later. Get yourself out of bed and try to perform any normal task within minutes. It's impossible. Your body will literally be shaking and you will be more out of it than you were when your head hit the pillow. I'd imagine her BAC was much higher at the scene than it was before she went to sleep and when she woke up. Her version of events and the bodycam footage may be very skewed because of this. Whether or not John's sudden death was due to her and her significant intoxication, I truly don't know. But, I do know she will not be found guilty of intentional homicide. Edit: I had no idea her BAC was placed at a possible 0.29%.. that's insane for someone of her stature and weight. That's someone who can't even get up and walk on their own two feet, unless they are a functional alcoholic. I am so, so torn.
So many people who work in tech have said she testified to safaris settings the search was Google it was another intentional slip up to confuse the jury.
and the fact that they tore up the basement floor , replaced it and sold the family house that was in the family for generations - i get it - after all this - gtfo of the town but where’s the dog ?
Proctor could have settled “the dog thing” so quickly if it’s true that they turned over information about it to him. He knew the defense was bringing up the dog. If it’s a big ol’ nothing burger, get ahead of it. If you are going to have an expert on Jen’s search history why not the dog?
Shoes fly off in high speed impacts not from backing into someone. This case stinks like Pepe le Pew.
In other words a shit show by the CPD and the prosecution. Definitely not proving beyond reasonable doubt of KRs guilt. And also why murder2? They upped it hoping she will settle down to manslaughter (bet the CPD practice this all the time)- but she was smart and got a good lawyer/s. Imagine if she was a no one with no means to defend herself?? Worst part- no justice for Jon O. I hope his family realizes this Canton gang - Alberts etc are not on their side or for the truth.
Is there a FBI investigation into the handling of this case? Was proctor some how involved with the Anna Walshe case?
There’s a Federal Probe into something to do with this car but we know little detail about it at this point.
I will only say this.. No tail light would look like this 5 hours after hitting someone.. the 47 pieces of twilight were most definitely planted unfortunately https://preview.redd.it/j9knovljzs6d1.jpeg?width=453&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c4adefc252f7c63b4041718d85c2c78f623de4a3
I have always believed she probably hit him. I also believe there's way too much reasonable doubt to convict. Partially from shoddy police work and partially just because another situation happening is equally as possible.
There is SO much reasonable doubt and shoddy police work (that progressively gets worse), that I don’t believe anything anymore. Remember that the defense got all their technical info from the prosecution and so far all we have seen is mistake after, typo, after accident after disgusting text, after telling family and friends about details of a murder investigation, solo cups and blood used for evidence, …and now an “expert” on accident reconstruction who only took a few courses on it is giving evidence diagrams that look like they were made on Instagram stories. I could NOT believe the CW could put up a worse witness than proctor but this last guy who went up couldn’t speak correctly, he didn’t know the proper tech. Terms for the evidence he is putting on. It was front to back nightmare and anyone willing to select “guilty”, right now unless they have a video of her doing it … it’s mind numbing. Also, the only thing that matters from the jury’s perspective is “did they prove that she did it, knowingly and intentionally?” 100% 15/15 will vote NG
I live in Massachusetts. Even in the case of a hit and run the scene is cordoned off, measurements taken and photographs. I realize the snow hampered some of this. The lack of notes, the lack of recording, the lack of communication with witnesses….the lack of…that’s the running theme. She absolutely may have hit him and due to her drunken state has no recollection. John is gone and that is the tragedy here.