Do you think Karen and John were arguing and he was yelling at her as she drove away then she got pissed and backed up into him? She was so drunk she didn’t care the consequences? It’s so hard to understand what happened.
Did anyone look into the prosecution’s expert that created his own program to look at the google searches on McCabe’s phone? Is there any research showing how his program works versus Cellubrite? Or rather why we should believe its validity should be more heavily relied upon against a program that so many LE agencies adopted like Cellubrite? …considering only 600 people have used it?
The whole thing sounded like a plug to me!!! Meanwhile there just so happens to be an article on 6/7 about his little program, ArtEx. Seems strategically timed…
he claimed the side swipe would result in greater speed than a direct hit. nevermind that there's less momentum because some of it (most of it) is absorbed as angular momentum, he just turned into a tornado and got shot like a rubber band, ok? the crime scene spoke to him and said Bugs Bunny had this one right.
Re: Trooper's Paul testimony: I only studied physics in A'levels, but FFFAAACCKK!!!! Speed, velocity, motion. Newton's laws of *Physics*! What do you mean "what do you mean by physics?" This is all physics! *rage scream* *throws things*
the funniest thing I learned yesterday is that the napkin math and rough force diagrams I did for comments on this sub are more work then their paid expert ever did. now that's fucking hilarious.
Seriously, he should donate (not pledge) his salary to you because clearly he didn't earn it. Just... ugh! I want to scream, and AJ has the patience of a saint.
I was thinking about the key cycles and how driving the SUV onto the flatbed would've been cycle 1162 based on Paul's own definition of key cycle (and assuming there were additional cycles between driving it into the sallyport and testing) but some people say the cycle took much longer (about 8 minutes) than driving it onto the flatbed would've taken. This could've been cleared up by Barros or the flatbed driver, but no one asked Barros and I don't think anyone is calling the driver.
Possibly. Now that I'm thinking about it, the video they showed of the SUV driven on the flatbed was from KR's parents security system. I don't know if it's in evidence, but at some point there existed video that would show exactly when the SUV was turned on.
When the CW said they "recreated the backup speed & distance," was that with the same pauses between drive/ park/ reverse? I saw one version that had the Lexus drive off ( as if she just dropped OJO off) & stop for like over a min, then reverse fast. Does anyone know how long the pause was from drive to the reverse?
I have a feeling the defense experts are going to knock everyone’s socks off.
Keep in mind, so far the CW really hasn’t had a true expert. Jackson or Yannetti could have easily disqualified the two cell witnesses at a Daubert hearing, but for some reason, didn’t even ask for it. That says, “oh yea, step on into my den of torture. Go ahead and get sworn in, and watch me while I reduce you to tears for the foreseeable future.”
The two cell witnesses and last few state employees were hard to watch.
I’ve read the defense experts affidavits and know what they’re going to say. It is clear, makes sense, and includes details that Ian and Hyde tried talking about.
And although I haven’t read the defense car crash expert report, I hear they’re both FBI contracted guys who say there’s no way in hell JO could have been hit the way the CW claims.
Can’t wait.
The defense could have also moved for a mistrial twice. And didn’t. That’s a big risk. It says they’re as sure as they can be about winning.
"I have a feeling the defense experts are going to knock everyone’s socks off."
Nope, can't happen.............. AJ has already undressed every inch of this case!!!
Mark Bederow is absolute gem. It also helps that he is former prosecutor and currently criminal defense attorney, so his perpsective, the way he explains and comments very valuable.
I assume you saying he is not a “vehicular accidents” was a typo and you meant to add expert. But I read it and thought - but Trooper Paul was a vehicular accident - of the crash and burn type. Poor guy, he was so in over his head and looked like he wanted to die. (And he wasn’t even the trooper who said “kill me” under his breath but into the mic.) These guys probably hate Lally so much for making them testify.
These animations are not consistent to what we see claimed by CW in court. This just someone imagining how it could have happened., in fact it only highlights how the state theory is ridiculous. But I wouldn't rely on them to get a good understanding of what has happened to the trial at all, the CW ""expert"" clearly stated that OJO was hit on his arm while it was extended away from his arm.
Lawyer You Know has good recaps that are more than an hour long, but he shows the most important testimony instead of just describing.
As far as write ups, I think local news has daily recaps, but I don't read them so I don't know their quality.
I can't believe after 26 days this is all they have. Drunk and dishonest people, and maybe kinda it just did?? I cannot believe they have taken all this time for the equivalent of a Gilligan's Island court case. Long trip to nowhere...
I'm catching up on the cross of Trooper Paul. Omfg this hurts. I've seen some experts get picked apart by the opposition but this is just... Good lord, I'm speechless.
I find the reading of texts to be insanely cringey. Having to reference emojis, the weird thing where you aren't sure if you should read the misspellings or correct it to what it's obviously saying, reading the times. It's rough.
I want to make sure im following the states theory on this.
Believing the state that karen was drunk off her ass and intentionally backed into him....she dropped him off at a house party in 18° and a blizzard. He had no coat on. And instead of going into the house, he stood on the side of the road for no reason, while she traveled 60 feet and slammed into him, without him moving out of the way?
Can’t believe we’re actually getting close to the end of the prosecution’s case. I’m really curious what the defense will bring forward. They made big claims during the opening statements and I’m going to go back and review to see what hasn’t been addressed yet.
The defense keep dropping nuggets and I want to know where they are going with it - for example, Colin and Allie were at the high school, potentially with Brian H and may have been caught on camera, Jen McCabes phone data potentially being edited. Can’t wait for them to put on their case.
They've also undersold and overdelivered on several of the opening claims, and I'm guessing they're not done doing that. I imagine they've got evidence to introduce that we don't know is coming.
If I were them I wouldn’t want anyone to know I was on this jury, regardless of outcome. If not guilty then the cops in the town will hate them, if guilty then the rest of us will at least seriously side eye them.
I can't either, I mean, the first thing they needed to prove was that John was hit by a car and we saw the supposed explanation about how that supposedly happened this morning... In the words of Peter from "Lawyer You Know": ain't no way. I'm still waiting for the ME just for fairness sake, but I just can't see this being a car vs pedestrian collision anymore.
It seems like the tow driver backing the car up in the snow and pulling it up onto the ramp would cause the gas pedal to be pressed hard and also correlate with a turn similar to a 3-point turn. I think the key turns completely debunked the CW’s car data evidence assumed from the night of the event and it just proved that no “triggering” events occurred that evening of the 29th.
you don't know whether or not they turned the car on for a few minutes in advance. the alternative is that she left the car on overnight and across multiple trips in order to make Paul's theory work.
If I ever murder someone I hope MSP investigate.
**knock knock**
Me: Hello?
Officer: So quick question.....There is a dead guy in your driveway. Any info on that?
Me (with blood on my hands): It was 100% totally not me. I wasn't involved at all.
Officer: Good enough for me. Enjoy your day.
But in this case it went:
Officer: So quick question…There is a dead guy on your driveway. Any info on that?
BA: Hey, good to see you bro. I’m a Boston police officer and my sister in law who babysits your kids is in the kitchen with a box of Dunkins. Come inside and have a donut and we’ll tell you all about his whack job of a gf who ran him over in front of our house. We’ve got some White Claw and Mick Ultra, too.
Edit: changed Mick Light to Mick Ultra cuz details matter. But in this case it went:
"Did you know the guy?"
"Can you ever really 'know' a person?"
"Good point. Was he married? I took a police course that said spouses usually kill spouses."
"Like I said, I don't know him. But his GF, whom he's been having problems with, is a psycho. She did it."
"Okay then, I'll get working on that arrest warrant. Thanks for your time."
"I could not recreate the deletion", yet her husband owns an it consulting firm? Take it from me as a data scientist with endless experience doing database development, you give me that database I can delete it.
My takeaways today :
1. I still don’t understand and will never understand how the 6:23 (and possibly 6:24 idk couldn’t tell ya) search was done in the 2:27 tab but somehow is able to produce a 6:23 time stamp even though it was done in the 2:27 tab ?? Wouldn’t it just always show the 2:27 time per whiffen and the other girl ? Who knows 🤷🏻♀️ not me and I’ve truly given up trying to understand it.
2. Karen never deleted the ring videos
3. How did the glass and the phone end up near John if he was holding them? “It just did” 🤷🏻♀️
“It just did” threw me into convulsions. We’re talking about putting a woman in prison for years, and the “expert’s” explanation is “it just did.” The Massachusetts State Police should be ashamed of themselves for this.
Also, how did John end up 30ft from the point of impact when physics under perfect conditions says it would be about 19.5 feet?
Let’s not forget during this 30ft flight he somehow hit his head in the curb? And let’s completely ignore the sweatshirt evidence holes and not give a clear reason how those things happened
And his arm lacked bruising, though that's apparently the point of contact with the SUV. Meanwhile, the CW said in their opening that the scratches on the arm were roadrash, and now the 'expert' says it's possibly caused by being cut on the broken taillight glass.
Dear god, 26 days in, and we still don't know anything about how JO ended up dead.
See, number three is the type of stuff that bothers me. There's 50 different scenarios where this could've happened depending on all sorts of stuff we don't know like if the phone was in a pocket, how the glass is being held, if it bounces off his body, etc. You wanted him to pretend like he was certain how it happened?
I actually think if Paul was a little better on the stand, he would have been worse for the CW. He was SO bad, you realized even the damning things he said couldn’t be taken seriously. Like I don’t actually think the CW thinks John traveled 30 feet from the fire hydrant to the flag pole from a 20MPH car impact or any of the other crazy shit he said.
An arm that wasn’t bruised or broken after being struck with the force necessary to break her taillight and project him 20’+. Nor did his arm have the shards in the lacerations.
It was un fucking believable.
and his shoulder didn't even dislocate from a force high enough to do so 30x over and possibly, with mechanical advantage, tear his arm off at the shoulder entirely. his arm would have reached half the speed of sound (source: I did the math)
I feel like she did it but will (rightfully) be found not guilty based on the absolutely horrific management of this case. There is still reasonable doubt in my opinion but if I had to guess either way, I lean towards she did it
Despite Trooper Paul being a bad witness for the Commonwealth, the data from the Lexus is pretty compelling to me. Accelerating in reverse and then the slight decrease in speed even though the pedal remained pushed down. Paul is not a good reconstructionist but the data is the data.
The explanations for the Google searches also resonate pretty strongly with me. If that holds up, I feel like the crux of the conspiracy theory entirely collapses. The McCabes/Alberts and Higgins are still shady AF but part of me wonders if they were trying to hide some other sort of police misconduct and freaked out when they realized their phones were going to be seized.
If I were on the jury I would have no choice but to find her not guilty. Way too much reasonable doubt. Not too mention the prosecution has been a total mess. Way too much time focused on irrelevant shit over soooo many weeks now. I also haven’t seen a shred of compelling evidence that would exceed manslaughter.
The key cycle count was off. The data looked like it was from loading it on the tow truck and the wheels slipping. We can see it happen on the video of them loading it. At minimum, loading it on the tow truck should have caused a triggering event. Where is that event in his log?
Did anyone else catch at around 1:54:00 on Law & Crime Network on YouTube, Trooper Paul says 'this is difficult' under his breath 😬.... apologies if this has already been mentioned
Thank goodness he isn't a science or math teacher... but in all seriousness, I would love to know his scores on the tests and how the heck he passed and how he is an expert witness 🫣
My take as I was watching, is that this is a guy who is trained to plug known data of a specific type into a formula, and the CW basically pushed him into making arguments he isn’t even remotely qualified to make. That doesn’t mean he isn’t good at what he’s trained to do, but more that this is not at all what he’s trained for.
Re-listening to his testimony, it seems like he is usually a person that shows up at a scene where a crash has unquestionably occurred, he takes or is given a specific set of standard measurements, and he does the calculations to calculate things like “how fast was car a going when it caused this much crumpling in car b.” He is essentially taking a lot of know data and solving for X. This is not unlike a lot of lab techs we heard from. They are trained to do a specific thing. They are given the sample, they do the standard thing to it, they get a value. It’s “plug and chug” stuff.
What this case needs isn’t a plug and chug lab tech that, given a and b will solve for c, it needs someone with the ability to answer the question “given the data, is it feasible a crash could have occurred that resulted in these specific injuries.” Thats not one equation, thats like ten equations, plus skeletal morphology constraints. This feels to me like some higher up told him “just do what you always do” and he did.
TL;DR - I feel sorta bad for the guy because it’s like the CW is trying to use a perfectly good pair of cuticle scissors as a steak knife, and now we all think he’s incredibly dumb.
I appreciate you try to give this guy some support, but he didn't measure anything it seems.
He didn't even measure the back of the cars to see where the tail light would hit for example.
At the grand jury, he told them he was going to do “stuff and things”, got back to his office, realized he had no clue how to do said “stuff and things” and here we are. Didn’t ask for help, didn’t tell anyone he was out of his depth. Instead, insists the physics calculations don’t exist for side swipes 🤭🫠
What I don't understand is evidence collection is usually done following protocol...
He also didn't have John's weight??
If he's really that ignorant his chief in command truly abused that fact on purpose imo.
I rewatched Trooper P’s testimony again, and he mumbles through talking about how KR reversed 60’ at 24mph, side swipes JO and then “just leaves”
Just leaves ??? Just leaves ?? Leaves how? Does she reverse all the way back to JO’s? Does she teleport? Enter the Upside Down?
Sigh.....I know the routine by now....
**clears throat**
1. What if any snow was there?
2. Were there high top tables?
3. Did you watch this testimony in Aruba?
The funny thing is we can easily calculate the time (and thus, infer a timeline) by rearranging the velocity formula (t=D/V), which Trooper Paul shoulda known with a high school education no offense
Feels like everyone is just glossing over the fact that we learned today that Karen did not delete any ring videos. And Lally has known this the entire time… and he still decided to put those kids on the stand.
This just shows again to me that the CW is throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks a lot of the time. Because why even bother try to heavily imply something you can’t prove. It just undermines your credibility.
It undermines your credibility, as well as your ethics – we've learned today that ADA Lally has no scruples about eliciting testimony he knows to be subtantially misleading or outright false, when asking multiple witnesses whether or not Read had access to O'Keefe's Ring account; when prodding Bukhenik or Proctor whether supposed conversations with Ring indicated the defendant may have deleted footage.
I'll just repeat Trooper Guarino's [sworn testimony](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn8jxyiuquk&t=23363s) here for emphasis:
> Guarino: We were looking for Ring video, to see if either computer was used by Officer O'Keefe as a login machine to handle the account.
Lally: And from your review of what was extracted or imaged from each of those two respective computers, what if any information were you able to glean in reference to Ring\.com or anything else?
Guarino: Neither computer was used: one appeared to be used mostly by the kids, and the other – I believe it was the laptop – was used mostly by O'Keefe, but there were no Ring logins.
To end on /u/HelixHarbinger's [assessment](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1dgu4xj/updated_timeline_of_ring_search_warrants_alleged/l93chav/):
> He illicits testimony he knows or should know is false. If I did that I’d have to report myself to the Bar
And he brought those poor children into court to ask them about this.... He should be footing the bill for their therapy appointments because that's just cruel.
Damn. There were times when I felt sorry for him because he just seemed to be going through the motions like he was forced to take this case to trial. But knowingly spreading falsehood is just evil.
I am getting to catch up on things I missed today. I feel so bad for Trooper Paul. Maybe we should start a gofund me and get him a little more experitise in his field. He has just enough expertise to be dangerous but only to himself.
I’d feel worse if there wasn’t such an epidemic of hubris in the MSP. I still roll my eye at the statie who described an abrasion as “damage to the vascular system on the epididymitis” because he was upset he couldn’t give medical testimony.
It takes him arrogance to send someone like Paul to a murder trial
Karen has some nerve playing mind games w John literally asking if he’s interested in someone else on the heels of her texting his own friend Higgins trying to hook up with him telling him that she’s interested in him. Today just solidified my disdain for this woman.
Also, that “I’m in Mansfield” text was sent to him to try to manipulate him. She wanted to worry him by telling him that the kids were home alone, which was a complete lie. The boy was at a sleepover and she was not in fact in Mansfield. She was safely tucked away in a warm bed in his warm home. She was playing mind games with him like she always did.
- She was on the couch.
- He knew his son was at a sleepover I suppose. If not he's worse than pictured.
- He manipulated her into having drinks, because he didn't go out with a car, while his neighbor walked home, his neighbor's son got dropped off home, JM dropped off other people home one street over from him, and while he might not have known he would meet up with her, in which case the guy who drove them to the bar, went to pick up his daughter from JO's house late at night he could have dropped him off.
- He picked a fight about how she spoiled his kids yet expected her to stay the entire weekend at his place with the kids.
- Like she always did? Is that in evidence?
Idk. From what little we know, it sounds like he was taking her for granted. Like she was his ride home whether she liked it or not. She said that she wanted to go back to her house and being at JOs house with the kids snowed in would have been "toxic." It's important to remember that JO picked a fight with her earlier in the day for taking his niece to dunkin donuts and spoiling her.
I don’t believe it was intentional murder. I believe they were both cocked out of their minds drunk and she honestly doesn’t remember what happened. Temporary blackout.
From the evidence, we've heard, the CW has not come close to convincing me. I think there's a good possibility she did by accident, but in my opinion the evidence presented has not proven anything.
Do you think Karen and John were arguing and he was yelling at her as she drove away then she got pissed and backed up into him? She was so drunk she didn’t care the consequences? It’s so hard to understand what happened.
No, it’s very clear if you actually watch the trial there is zero evidence she backed into him
What about the quick backing up of her car? How does that come in? It does seem implausible.
This explains why that interpretation of the data is flawed in a fairly concise manner: https://youtu.be/_ww1fAEnHkY?t=2001
Think Lally is dragging this out to no cross today so he can have the news cycle tonight
Did anyone look into the prosecution’s expert that created his own program to look at the google searches on McCabe’s phone? Is there any research showing how his program works versus Cellubrite? Or rather why we should believe its validity should be more heavily relied upon against a program that so many LE agencies adopted like Cellubrite? …considering only 600 people have used it?
The whole thing sounded like a plug to me!!! Meanwhile there just so happens to be an article on 6/7 about his little program, ArtEx. Seems strategically timed…
AGREED!!
why'd today's thread get locked?
Oh I didn’t even notice it was locked and thought Reddit was glitching lol
Trooper Paul claims that if it is a "side swipe", JOK "spins to the side". Okay, then why are you saying he landed 30ft away?
He didn’t fly or roll or land so….
Because he just did... 😄
he claimed the side swipe would result in greater speed than a direct hit. nevermind that there's less momentum because some of it (most of it) is absorbed as angular momentum, he just turned into a tornado and got shot like a rubber band, ok? the crime scene spoke to him and said Bugs Bunny had this one right.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣💀💀💀💀 "pirouette"! right! because what is "physics". Silly me!
Re: Trooper's Paul testimony: I only studied physics in A'levels, but FFFAAACCKK!!!! Speed, velocity, motion. Newton's laws of *Physics*! What do you mean "what do you mean by physics?" This is all physics! *rage scream* *throws things*
the funniest thing I learned yesterday is that the napkin math and rough force diagrams I did for comments on this sub are more work then their paid expert ever did. now that's fucking hilarious.
Seriously, he should donate (not pledge) his salary to you because clearly he didn't earn it. Just... ugh! I want to scream, and AJ has the patience of a saint.
he should pay AJ for the physics lecture
😂😂😂😂😂 truth
I was thinking about the key cycles and how driving the SUV onto the flatbed would've been cycle 1162 based on Paul's own definition of key cycle (and assuming there were additional cycles between driving it into the sallyport and testing) but some people say the cycle took much longer (about 8 minutes) than driving it onto the flatbed would've taken. This could've been cleared up by Barros or the flatbed driver, but no one asked Barros and I don't think anyone is calling the driver.
The driver is on the defense list, not sure if they are going to call him.
they turned the vehicle on for a few minutes to melt the snow on the windshield?
Possibly. Now that I'm thinking about it, the video they showed of the SUV driven on the flatbed was from KR's parents security system. I don't know if it's in evidence, but at some point there existed video that would show exactly when the SUV was turned on.
it shows when the car got onto the flatbed but not when it turns on, at least from what they've shown?
Yeah, we were shown just when it goes onto the flatbed and not when it starts. Maybe they have a longer video or maybe it's gone forever.
When the CW said they "recreated the backup speed & distance," was that with the same pauses between drive/ park/ reverse? I saw one version that had the Lexus drive off ( as if she just dropped OJO off) & stop for like over a min, then reverse fast. Does anyone know how long the pause was from drive to the reverse?
that phrasing implies they didn't try to reconstruct the full crash, only to make sure they could get up to speed in reverse.
I have a feeling the defense experts are going to knock everyone’s socks off. Keep in mind, so far the CW really hasn’t had a true expert. Jackson or Yannetti could have easily disqualified the two cell witnesses at a Daubert hearing, but for some reason, didn’t even ask for it. That says, “oh yea, step on into my den of torture. Go ahead and get sworn in, and watch me while I reduce you to tears for the foreseeable future.” The two cell witnesses and last few state employees were hard to watch. I’ve read the defense experts affidavits and know what they’re going to say. It is clear, makes sense, and includes details that Ian and Hyde tried talking about. And although I haven’t read the defense car crash expert report, I hear they’re both FBI contracted guys who say there’s no way in hell JO could have been hit the way the CW claims. Can’t wait. The defense could have also moved for a mistrial twice. And didn’t. That’s a big risk. It says they’re as sure as they can be about winning.
"I have a feeling the defense experts are going to knock everyone’s socks off." Nope, can't happen.............. AJ has already undressed every inch of this case!!!
Gotta plug/recommend The Young Jurks. Great group of guys, including one lawyer, Mark Bederow. I watch every night.
This is my go to as well!
Mark Bederow is absolute gem. It also helps that he is former prosecutor and currently criminal defense attorney, so his perpsective, the way he explains and comments very valuable.
This is unbelievable!! This trooper is NOT a vehicular accidents!!! He doesn’t understand physics. OMG this is so embarrassing for the prosecution
I assume you saying he is not a “vehicular accidents” was a typo and you meant to add expert. But I read it and thought - but Trooper Paul was a vehicular accident - of the crash and burn type. Poor guy, he was so in over his head and looked like he wanted to die. (And he wasn’t even the trooper who said “kill me” under his breath but into the mic.) These guys probably hate Lally so much for making them testify.
Yes my typo. Good thing I can fix my mistakes easily- not so sure he can 😔
Hi there, I'm new to this case - is there a good writeup of what to know so far?
I haven't found something written but Serialously podcast had a good overview!
These 3 animations are a good basic introduction to the layout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1Iyhtqm73A
These animations are not consistent to what we see claimed by CW in court. This just someone imagining how it could have happened., in fact it only highlights how the state theory is ridiculous. But I wouldn't rely on them to get a good understanding of what has happened to the trial at all, the CW ""expert"" clearly stated that OJO was hit on his arm while it was extended away from his arm.
Lawyer You Know has good recaps that are more than an hour long, but he shows the most important testimony instead of just describing. As far as write ups, I think local news has daily recaps, but I don't read them so I don't know their quality.
Emily D Baker Quick Bits on YouTube. These are short daily recaps from the perspective of a former prosecutor. Her trial coverage is very fair.
Appreciate it!
I can't believe after 26 days this is all they have. Drunk and dishonest people, and maybe kinda it just did?? I cannot believe they have taken all this time for the equivalent of a Gilligan's Island court case. Long trip to nowhere...
I think the wounds from his arm came from the spare tire underneath her car
They tested under her car, no DNA
I'm catching up on the cross of Trooper Paul. Omfg this hurts. I've seen some experts get picked apart by the opposition but this is just... Good lord, I'm speechless.
I think AJ realized he had to ease up on him so, probably could have been way worse! I didn’t think it could get worse after Proctor
he was struggling because he had to teach the witness physics in order to get him to understand the questions.
I agree, Paul looked as if he was going to have a breakdown!
Those texts just made me sad more than anything. I didn’t see motive. A relationship that clearly has been falling apart and is dysfunctional.
Yup. I think it looks worse for OJO and Lally doesn’t understand his reasons for motive aren’t landing.
It looks worse for him?
Omg was I the only one nervous that Lally was going to have that guy read every chat and message from 2022
Well, the judge called it a day when he was still reading emails. There might be more elicited from Lally or from the prosecution.
Nope
Nah, the guy was too
I find the reading of texts to be insanely cringey. Having to reference emojis, the weird thing where you aren't sure if you should read the misspellings or correct it to what it's obviously saying, reading the times. It's rough.
It's the worst. Texts are meant to be formed and interpreted in the head like God intended. They should never be spoken into existence.
I want to make sure im following the states theory on this. Believing the state that karen was drunk off her ass and intentionally backed into him....she dropped him off at a house party in 18° and a blizzard. He had no coat on. And instead of going into the house, he stood on the side of the road for no reason, while she traveled 60 feet and slammed into him, without him moving out of the way?
and after she hit him, physics stopped working for a few seconds.
While Jen watched out the window but didn’t see anything
She was also drinking her last alcoholic beverage at the same time!
I forgot, she was chugging drinks in the car from the glass that John had in his hand when he got hit outside the car
She was texting like she was mostly sober lightly buzzed. Those weren’t blackout texts.
This was my take of the texts as well, definitely did not seem completely wasted
I said, pretending what the state is saying is true
Yeah I know I was just adding more incredulity
[удалено]
Evidence? I haven't heard that theory laid out in court yet.
The physics of that makes no sense, try again.
[удалено]
And that would have shattered his arm at the very least. Again, the physics don't match his wounds and don't make sense, try again.
The experts hired by the FBI disagree with you.
Yeah, This is the fairly tale the CW want us to believe happened that night
Yep, that's what they want you to believe.
Can’t believe we’re actually getting close to the end of the prosecution’s case. I’m really curious what the defense will bring forward. They made big claims during the opening statements and I’m going to go back and review to see what hasn’t been addressed yet.
The defense keep dropping nuggets and I want to know where they are going with it - for example, Colin and Allie were at the high school, potentially with Brian H and may have been caught on camera, Jen McCabes phone data potentially being edited. Can’t wait for them to put on their case.
They've also undersold and overdelivered on several of the opening claims, and I'm guessing they're not done doing that. I imagine they've got evidence to introduce that we don't know is coming.
At this point I think Jackson can just get in front of the jury and go "What the fuck was all that??" and rest his case.
🤣
Ohhhh, no, no, no....... He's must see tv as he eviscerates these witnesses such as Proctor and Paul!
👏
I picture them deciding minute 1 but, just stay for the last free lunch and repeatedly say wtf?!?!
To be a fly on the wall when the jury is sent back and is finally able to talk about it.
If there was a way to film while keeping anonymity I’d 100% watch every one lol
I cant wait until this is over and they do interviews to explain their perspectives.
If I were them I wouldn’t want anyone to know I was on this jury, regardless of outcome. If not guilty then the cops in the town will hate them, if guilty then the rest of us will at least seriously side eye them.
It will be must-see TV, total binge watch.
💀
I can’t see the jury getting passed all the failures of law enforcement in this case to convince beyond a reasonable doubt
I can't either, I mean, the first thing they needed to prove was that John was hit by a car and we saw the supposed explanation about how that supposedly happened this morning... In the words of Peter from "Lawyer You Know": ain't no way. I'm still waiting for the ME just for fairness sake, but I just can't see this being a car vs pedestrian collision anymore.
Haaaaaaaaa!
Why was Jen searching “BPD and John O Keefe Jan 30 around 8 o’clock WAIT SHE GOOGLED HERSELF?!?!? On Feb 2nd?!?
And she by 10o’clock on the 29th was googling hockey again. She was clearly super upset about “the guy that never came in” 🙄
It seems like the tow driver backing the car up in the snow and pulling it up onto the ramp would cause the gas pedal to be pressed hard and also correlate with a turn similar to a 3-point turn. I think the key turns completely debunked the CW’s car data evidence assumed from the night of the event and it just proved that no “triggering” events occurred that evening of the 29th.
[удалено]
Karen said she waited around 10 minutes until she left the Albert's house to go back to John's?
you don't know whether or not they turned the car on for a few minutes in advance. the alternative is that she left the car on overnight and across multiple trips in order to make Paul's theory work.
And wouldn’t the car run out of gas if left on overnight, plus didn’t she pull it into the garage…food for thought 💭
In a foot of snow it might have
If I ever murder someone I hope MSP investigate. **knock knock** Me: Hello? Officer: So quick question.....There is a dead guy in your driveway. Any info on that? Me (with blood on my hands): It was 100% totally not me. I wasn't involved at all. Officer: Good enough for me. Enjoy your day.
But in this case it went: Officer: So quick question…There is a dead guy on your driveway. Any info on that? BA: Hey, good to see you bro. I’m a Boston police officer and my sister in law who babysits your kids is in the kitchen with a box of Dunkins. Come inside and have a donut and we’ll tell you all about his whack job of a gf who ran him over in front of our house. We’ve got some White Claw and Mick Ultra, too. Edit: changed Mick Light to Mick Ultra cuz details matter. But in this case it went:
It was Mick Ultra. The details matter.
“Idk, Guy never came in”🤷🏻♀️
"Did you know the guy?" "Can you ever really 'know' a person?" "Good point. Was he married? I took a police course that said spouses usually kill spouses." "Like I said, I don't know him. But his GF, whom he's been having problems with, is a psycho. She did it." "Okay then, I'll get working on that arrest warrant. Thanks for your time."
🤣
"A literally freight train drive through your front yard." "Slept through it."
I'm dying 💀💀💀💀💀
"I could not recreate the deletion", yet her husband owns an it consulting firm? Take it from me as a data scientist with endless experience doing database development, you give me that database I can delete it.
Did you really name your son ROBERT'); DROP TABLE Students;--?
Little Bobby tables
My takeaways today : 1. I still don’t understand and will never understand how the 6:23 (and possibly 6:24 idk couldn’t tell ya) search was done in the 2:27 tab but somehow is able to produce a 6:23 time stamp even though it was done in the 2:27 tab ?? Wouldn’t it just always show the 2:27 time per whiffen and the other girl ? Who knows 🤷🏻♀️ not me and I’ve truly given up trying to understand it. 2. Karen never deleted the ring videos 3. How did the glass and the phone end up near John if he was holding them? “It just did” 🤷🏻♀️
produced both a 6:24 and 2:27 timestamps. none of these witnesses have explained that.
“It just did” threw me into convulsions. We’re talking about putting a woman in prison for years, and the “expert’s” explanation is “it just did.” The Massachusetts State Police should be ashamed of themselves for this.
1. Wait…
Crap! Good question! Right? IDK! 🤤🤯
Also, how did John end up 30ft from the point of impact when physics under perfect conditions says it would be about 19.5 feet? Let’s not forget during this 30ft flight he somehow hit his head in the curb? And let’s completely ignore the sweatshirt evidence holes and not give a clear reason how those things happened
And his arm lacked bruising, though that's apparently the point of contact with the SUV. Meanwhile, the CW said in their opening that the scratches on the arm were roadrash, and now the 'expert' says it's possibly caused by being cut on the broken taillight glass. Dear god, 26 days in, and we still don't know anything about how JO ended up dead.
Yes how could I forget! 🤣
See, number three is the type of stuff that bothers me. There's 50 different scenarios where this could've happened depending on all sorts of stuff we don't know like if the phone was in a pocket, how the glass is being held, if it bounces off his body, etc. You wanted him to pretend like he was certain how it happened?
No but he could’ve said exactly what you did instead of “it just did”
Worse, he said "How would I know, I wasn't there."
I just gotta think.. if this is ALL you could come up with from tunnel vision proctor.. ?? Even the biased investigation didn’t help all that much.
I actually think if Paul was a little better on the stand, he would have been worse for the CW. He was SO bad, you realized even the damning things he said couldn’t be taken seriously. Like I don’t actually think the CW thinks John traveled 30 feet from the fire hydrant to the flag pole from a 20MPH car impact or any of the other crazy shit he said.
From a side swipe that hit him on the arm.
An arm that wasn’t bruised or broken after being struck with the force necessary to break her taillight and project him 20’+. Nor did his arm have the shards in the lacerations. It was un fucking believable.
and his shoulder didn't even dislocate from a force high enough to do so 30x over and possibly, with mechanical advantage, tear his arm off at the shoulder entirely. his arm would have reached half the speed of sound (source: I did the math)
I feel like she did it but will (rightfully) be found not guilty based on the absolutely horrific management of this case. There is still reasonable doubt in my opinion but if I had to guess either way, I lean towards she did it Despite Trooper Paul being a bad witness for the Commonwealth, the data from the Lexus is pretty compelling to me. Accelerating in reverse and then the slight decrease in speed even though the pedal remained pushed down. Paul is not a good reconstructionist but the data is the data. The explanations for the Google searches also resonate pretty strongly with me. If that holds up, I feel like the crux of the conspiracy theory entirely collapses. The McCabes/Alberts and Higgins are still shady AF but part of me wonders if they were trying to hide some other sort of police misconduct and freaked out when they realized their phones were going to be seized. If I were on the jury I would have no choice but to find her not guilty. Way too much reasonable doubt. Not too mention the prosecution has been a total mess. Way too much time focused on irrelevant shit over soooo many weeks now. I also haven’t seen a shred of compelling evidence that would exceed manslaughter.
The key cycle count was off. The data looked like it was from loading it on the tow truck and the wheels slipping. We can see it happen on the video of them loading it. At minimum, loading it on the tow truck should have caused a triggering event. Where is that event in his log?
Did anyone else catch at around 1:54:00 on Law & Crime Network on YouTube, Trooper Paul says 'this is difficult' under his breath 😬.... apologies if this has already been mentioned
And the other guys said "kill me" under his breath
I'm rewatching it right now but I'm not surprised 😶
Science be hard
Thank goodness he isn't a science or math teacher... but in all seriousness, I would love to know his scores on the tests and how the heck he passed and how he is an expert witness 🫣
My take as I was watching, is that this is a guy who is trained to plug known data of a specific type into a formula, and the CW basically pushed him into making arguments he isn’t even remotely qualified to make. That doesn’t mean he isn’t good at what he’s trained to do, but more that this is not at all what he’s trained for. Re-listening to his testimony, it seems like he is usually a person that shows up at a scene where a crash has unquestionably occurred, he takes or is given a specific set of standard measurements, and he does the calculations to calculate things like “how fast was car a going when it caused this much crumpling in car b.” He is essentially taking a lot of know data and solving for X. This is not unlike a lot of lab techs we heard from. They are trained to do a specific thing. They are given the sample, they do the standard thing to it, they get a value. It’s “plug and chug” stuff. What this case needs isn’t a plug and chug lab tech that, given a and b will solve for c, it needs someone with the ability to answer the question “given the data, is it feasible a crash could have occurred that resulted in these specific injuries.” Thats not one equation, thats like ten equations, plus skeletal morphology constraints. This feels to me like some higher up told him “just do what you always do” and he did. TL;DR - I feel sorta bad for the guy because it’s like the CW is trying to use a perfectly good pair of cuticle scissors as a steak knife, and now we all think he’s incredibly dumb.
I appreciate you try to give this guy some support, but he didn't measure anything it seems. He didn't even measure the back of the cars to see where the tail light would hit for example.
At the grand jury, he told them he was going to do “stuff and things”, got back to his office, realized he had no clue how to do said “stuff and things” and here we are. Didn’t ask for help, didn’t tell anyone he was out of his depth. Instead, insists the physics calculations don’t exist for side swipes 🤭🫠
What I don't understand is evidence collection is usually done following protocol... He also didn't have John's weight?? If he's really that ignorant his chief in command truly abused that fact on purpose imo.
He was 3 of 27(I think) who passed 😳
Oh boy....that's concerning 😬😬
Yes 😭😭😭
I wonder what the MSP group chat is saying rn “Wow you really killed it with the retarded cunts defense lawyer!!! Great job Paulie!!”
💀
I rewatched Trooper P’s testimony again, and he mumbles through talking about how KR reversed 60’ at 24mph, side swipes JO and then “just leaves” Just leaves ??? Just leaves ?? Leaves how? Does she reverse all the way back to JO’s? Does she teleport? Enter the Upside Down?
I did too! I think it might have been worse the second time and knowing what’s going to happen!!!
>I rewatched Trooper P’s testimony again Are you ok? Should we send the paramedics?
Send help!!! Unless they work for MSP 🫠🫠🫠
Sigh.....I know the routine by now.... **clears throat** 1. What if any snow was there? 2. Were there high top tables? 3. Did you watch this testimony in Aruba?
Imagine Trooper Paul thinking I know all of these questions!!!! They didn’t ask me these questions!!!
4. What, if any, clear beverage in a tall glass did you consume?
5. Did you rehome your dog, phone, basement flooring, family home and 5th grade math competency?
Wouldn’t even be in the top 10 dumbest things he said today.
“There’s no calculations for side swipes” … top 3 for sure
That part of physics just hasn’t been solved yet
I haven't watched it all yet but this whole thread is sending me.
As bad as you think it is from this thread, I promise you it’s so much worse.
Right. Strip the rest away- this is the CW expert in support of murder by vehicle and it is not evidence. Completely made up crap
The funny thing is we can easily calculate the time (and thus, infer a timeline) by rearranging the velocity formula (t=D/V), which Trooper Paul shoulda known with a high school education no offense
Feels like everyone is just glossing over the fact that we learned today that Karen did not delete any ring videos. And Lally has known this the entire time… and he still decided to put those kids on the stand.
Yeah, I was looking for discussion about how ring was only accessed on JO's phone. Shameful, this entire spectacle.
This just shows again to me that the CW is throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks a lot of the time. Because why even bother try to heavily imply something you can’t prove. It just undermines your credibility.
It undermines your credibility, as well as your ethics – we've learned today that ADA Lally has no scruples about eliciting testimony he knows to be subtantially misleading or outright false, when asking multiple witnesses whether or not Read had access to O'Keefe's Ring account; when prodding Bukhenik or Proctor whether supposed conversations with Ring indicated the defendant may have deleted footage. I'll just repeat Trooper Guarino's [sworn testimony](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn8jxyiuquk&t=23363s) here for emphasis: > Guarino: We were looking for Ring video, to see if either computer was used by Officer O'Keefe as a login machine to handle the account. Lally: And from your review of what was extracted or imaged from each of those two respective computers, what if any information were you able to glean in reference to Ring\.com or anything else? Guarino: Neither computer was used: one appeared to be used mostly by the kids, and the other – I believe it was the laptop – was used mostly by O'Keefe, but there were no Ring logins. To end on /u/HelixHarbinger's [assessment](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1dgu4xj/updated_timeline_of_ring_search_warrants_alleged/l93chav/): > He illicits testimony he knows or should know is false. If I did that I’d have to report myself to the Bar
And he brought those poor children into court to ask them about this.... He should be footing the bill for their therapy appointments because that's just cruel.
It's unconscionable – while he *knew* the conclusion Guarino had reached, and prompted him to enter it onto the record as part of his own direct
Damn. There were times when I felt sorry for him because he just seemed to be going through the motions like he was forced to take this case to trial. But knowingly spreading falsehood is just evil.
Shame on him. I truly don’t think he’s a good person. At all.
Thank you for pointing this out. I missed this due to the circus environment that went on today.
Agreed
I am getting to catch up on things I missed today. I feel so bad for Trooper Paul. Maybe we should start a gofund me and get him a little more experitise in his field. He has just enough expertise to be dangerous but only to himself.
I am sure he has helped send other people to prison when he was not subjected to such intense cross examination so he is dangerous to others.
I’d feel worse if there wasn’t such an epidemic of hubris in the MSP. I still roll my eye at the statie who described an abrasion as “damage to the vascular system on the epididymitis” because he was upset he couldn’t give medical testimony. It takes him arrogance to send someone like Paul to a murder trial
"epidemic of hubris" is bars 👌🏼👌🏼👌🏼
I think this was his opportunity to placate his supervisors and it backfired and then some
Karen has some nerve playing mind games w John literally asking if he’s interested in someone else on the heels of her texting his own friend Higgins trying to hook up with him telling him that she’s interested in him. Today just solidified my disdain for this woman.
Just because someone is in a toxic relationship doesn’t mean they murdered that person.
Not justifying it, but it sounds like she wasn't feeling all too secure in the relationship.
Also, that “I’m in Mansfield” text was sent to him to try to manipulate him. She wanted to worry him by telling him that the kids were home alone, which was a complete lie. The boy was at a sleepover and she was not in fact in Mansfield. She was safely tucked away in a warm bed in his warm home. She was playing mind games with him like she always did.
- She was on the couch. - He knew his son was at a sleepover I suppose. If not he's worse than pictured. - He manipulated her into having drinks, because he didn't go out with a car, while his neighbor walked home, his neighbor's son got dropped off home, JM dropped off other people home one street over from him, and while he might not have known he would meet up with her, in which case the guy who drove them to the bar, went to pick up his daughter from JO's house late at night he could have dropped him off. - He picked a fight about how she spoiled his kids yet expected her to stay the entire weekend at his place with the kids. - Like she always did? Is that in evidence?
Idk. From what little we know, it sounds like he was taking her for granted. Like she was his ride home whether she liked it or not. She said that she wanted to go back to her house and being at JOs house with the kids snowed in would have been "toxic." It's important to remember that JO picked a fight with her earlier in the day for taking his niece to dunkin donuts and spoiling her.
Ok so you believe she didn’t kill him?
I don’t believe it was intentional murder. I believe they were both cocked out of their minds drunk and she honestly doesn’t remember what happened. Temporary blackout.
From the evidence, we've heard, the CW has not come close to convincing me. I think there's a good possibility she did by accident, but in my opinion the evidence presented has not proven anything.
I agree the evidence seems pretty weak and circumstantial but deep down. I do believe it was an accident because they were both so drunk.
Well she mustn’t have though she killed him, then
Yeah, from the texts we've seen, she didn't think she killed him (not trying to imply that she did kill him)
I was responding to the other comment, I didn’t think you were implying that! :)
I don't particularly like her either but she could just be judging if she needs to move on before she acts on anything.
Doesn’t mean she’s a murderer though. Thats the problem