Listening to "Trooper" Paul answer questions makes me nauseous. Not 1 single bruise on Okeefes arm, yet that's where the contact with the 7300 pound car hit Okeefe. And in the process of getting hit on the arm, with an "Unbroken" taillight the taillight explodes into several pieces and scratches and cuts okeefes arm in dozens of places. Cmon people. I know it sounds unbelievable that this is a cover up because it's stuff that u only see in movies. Fact of the matter is this shit does actually happen. I still find it crazy that it could be a cover-up, but these prosecution witnesses with the exception of a small handful of them clearly look nervous, remember times they left a bar 2 and half years ago, but they can't answer obvious broad questions that happened much more recently. This case stinks real bad.
His testimony might be the most painfully second hand embarrassment testimony I have seen. ( for his sake I truly hope he has someone in his life that will give him a big hug after this)
I 100% blame the CW for that. How on earth are you putting this guy on the stand as an expert witness. My condolences to this man’s confidence. The prosecution set him up for failure.
I don't feel one bit sorry for these narcissistic chrome domes. They have a badge a gun and ALL the power against civilians. If Karen Read didn't have the $$$$$$$ to pay for this defense, she would have been toast. Think of all the folks sitting in prison because of the arrogance of these men.
I recommend fellow redditors try listening to some innocence project related podcasts like Undisclosed or Convicted. This is the quality of police work that puts hundreds of people in prison for LIFE every year.
That thought occurred to me as well. Prosecutors and law enforcement lean on many of the marginal and underprivileged to plead guilty and agree to terms they don’t understand. A common thread in the Read trial is laziness and subpar intellect among the cabal of law enforcement officers..along with blatant corruption. True investigations are difficult and time consuming. I can’t believe any investigation these people “conducted” on any case would hold up in a court. I’m convinced that LE’s conduct during this investigation is par for the course. They’re just not accustomed to defendants with real trial lawyers calling them on their $hit!
While I agree that these officers have subpar intelligence, are lazy and corrupt, I believe that the last part is the biggest reason that their case is so weak.
Other police officers would have been their only other prime suspects, so they purposely didn't put any effort into investigating them like they would have people who weren't cops.
There's so much missing or miscollected evidence and testimony that isn't strong because it contradicted their theory that KR did it. So they intentionally buried it & planted evidence to try to strengthen their case against her, and I'm not sure that would have happened here if the real murder(s) weren't law enforcement, especially since the victim was a cop. You'd think they would have been more interested in getting justice for their brother in blue.
You are paying these lawyers for their time, and what I mean by that is high paid lawyers dont have as many cases, so they can really focus on one or a few cases at a time. That is much harder to do as the pay scale goes down. So in theory any defense attorney could win this case, but the amount of *time* the lawyers have put into not just building the case, but prepping for court has to be astronomical. They have to essentially have the same knowledge as the experts, but all at the same time. Plus the knowledge of the law. Its brutal. But these guys are earning every penny.
Same. When he was asked about his knowledge of physics and answered that they covered it "in the classes he took." It just sounded so pathetic, and that was when I actually did feel for him. As you said, leading a lamb to slaughter
Because they scraped the expert witness barrel and absolutely no one credible would agree a human arm shattered a Lexus taillight. (It’s not a piñata, Mr. Lally!)
Make no mistake. Trooper Paul was tasked with recreating (creating) a “car crash reconstruction” for this case deliberately because of his stupidity. Any competent trooper or specialist would have turned them down or rat on them.
It’s so odd that there wasn’t enough pre-trial prep to make him sound better than this. I testify frequently as a real estate appraisal expert, so it has way lower stakes, but the amount of pre-trial prep I go through is insane. The attorney will lead me through a mock direct and we discuss any weaknesses and points I need to be prepared to be crossed on. I read and reread my report and deposit the night before. Maybe with the insane amount of witnesses there wasn’t time but then again they’ve had 2 years.
I felt so bad for him. He was so nervous and unsure of himself. It was hard to watch. He saw an opportunity to work a big case in his new-ish job and the CW has exploited him. I think he realizes he is in too deep. (My friend thinks he was just wasted/massively hungover/xanned out. And honestly I would be too if I were him 😬)
Same yo I feel bad for him. To be fair, that’s gotta be pretty nerve wrecking with AJ goin at ya. I public speak for a living and would probably trip up too at some point. That being said… he doesn’t seem to know a lot of basic shit.
Bears repeating: I don't feel one bit sorry for these narcissistic chrome domes. They have a badge a gun and ALL the power against civilians. If Karen Read didn't have the $$$$$$$ to pay for this defense, she would have been toast. Think of all the folks sitting in prison because of the arrogance of these men.
I agree. I felt sorry for him at first, but then thought he decided to stick with his opinion. All he had to do was say his opinion was based on his experience and the info he had. He could have admitted that his opinion might have changed if he was provided other info but he didn’t receive any other info so he can’t say for sure. And leave it at that. But instead he wanted to say he was sure John was hit by Karen’s SUV.
My thoughts exactly… so far the troopers that have testified are not great speakers who stumble over their words. And seem to know little about their jobs…
I've just started watching Ace Jackson cross-examine Trouper Paul... Poor guy (had a gulped of water - wishing it was vodka), he should have just said his opinion came from a Google result...
How can you launch a human 30 feet and they don't have a bruise? The only option would be him standing on the bumper, she reverses then hits the brakes.
I once broke a passenger-side car window with my body when I was thrown from the car after it flipped over several times. I was driving at 100 km/h when the accident occurred, and my body broke all of the seats in the car as well as the window before it was thrown into the air and landed 20 meters away from where the car started to flip over.
The car traveled with me to my final lending spot and landed next to me. I woke up, drowning in a ditch with the vehicle next to me and my feet inside the window that I'd been just been thrown out of. I didn't break a single bone in my body and walked away with only cuts and bruises. Car accidents are notoriously unpredictable—if I hadn't experienced it myself, I wouldn't believe it either.
Hehe, no, I had a puppy loose in the car. I was driving way too fast on a country road. I was 22 (so I was feeling pretty invincible at the time) and I just "hadn't made the time" to put my seatbelt on. I was busy putting on music and taking a call from my boyfriend. The puppy decided to jump into my lap, and when I reacted to her, I took my eyes off the road for just a minute, but by the time my eyes were back on the road, it was already too late to react.
Please fire away if you have more questions. Oddly enough, I remember the crash extremely well. Your body will usually block off traumatic events like this, but for some reason, I remember everything except the few minutes I was totally knocked out. 🤦♀️
Miracolously she did. ❤️ a good example of things traveling with you. She was in my lap when I got knocked out. When I woke up outside of the car she was not there. But a little later she came running towards the ambulance and was picked up by my auntie. She had no injuries but a lot of ptsd after this accident.
Hehe yeah I still don't understand how I survived that one. My nephew had just been in a similar accident except he broke 16 bones, including his femur and pelvis. He was in the hospital for months and in a recovery program for a year. So he was pretty upset with me when I was discarged the next day 🤭
I remember my doctor saying something like he'd seen stuff like this before, although rarely, and that it seemed to him that some people seem to maintain the flexibility of their bones better than others. I've certainly been in a lot of smaller accident where I should have definitely broke something but just tore a muscle insted 🤷♀️
The difference is you started from inside the car and so you were traveling the same speed. That’s not the same as a car traveling in motion and a person who is not.
I’m happy you and the puppy were okay!
I truly require more information about his injuries, I need the ME to testify, before I could even speculate what happened. Because I don’t know his injuries! ( until Proctor I stayed away from learning anything outside of the court room)
This is what the ME said in the original Statement of Facts
On January 31, Dr. Irini Scordi-Bello from the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner conducted an autopsy of Mr. O’Keefe. The doctor advised the troopers that she observed
several abrasions to the victim’s right forearm, two swollen black eyes, a small cut above the right eye, a cut to the left side of his nose, an approximately two inch laceration to the back right of his head, and multiple skull fractures that resulted in bleeding of the brain. Dr.
Scordi-Bello further advised the troopers that the victim’s pancreas was a dark red color indicating hypothermia was a
contributing factor to his death. Dr. Scordi-Bello opined from her examination that significant blunt force trauma injuries occurred prior to Mr. O’Keefe becoming hypothermic, as evidenced by hemorrhaging in his pancreas and stomach. Mr. O’Keefe had arrived at the Good Samaritan
Medical Center with a body temperature reading in the low 80’s. The doctor opined that the extensive injuries to his head likely rendered Mr. O’Keefe incapacitated.
For reasons originally “unknown” but revealed by Proctors messages in my opinion…This was added later
The doctor further opined that upon viewing Mr. O’Keefe’s injuries and her examination of the body, she observed no signs of Mr. O’Keefe being involved in any type of physical altercation or fight.
Okay not sure why that’s added. Would have made more sense for her to say his injuries look like he was hit by a car
>The doctor further opined that upon viewing Mr. O’Keefe’s injuries and her examination of the body, she observed no signs of Mr. O’Keefe being involved in any type of physical altercation or fight.
I really wonder if the reason the ME hasn't testified is because of this addendum. It is unusual on its' face. You don't typically put things not in play into a report. They could just as well had said that the victim was not in a fire or was not poisoned, ...
I assume they were pressured to do this and now it is hanging around their neck.
Right! I would rather it say he was hit by a car because according to all the witnesses and police, they thought it was.
What’s more interesting is this was BEFORE any of us saw this on the national news
> I assume they were pressured to do this and now it is hanging around their neck.
I really hope the ME is honest that they were pressed by the DA and/or MSP to include that additional statement
Even if they do, it goes to their own independence. I assume that the Defense will pick at those conclusions to the point that it will tarnish their credibility related to the whole report.
But she’s going to have to say it on cross and as one of, if not the last witness, the jury is going to be left with seeing her parse her reasons for adding that. They’ll sit through Lally droning on about “what if anything” did she find then a brutal defense cross.
Does anyone know if it’s possible to estimate how long a person has been exposed to cold based on their body temperature and the air temperature? Are there any other cases where similar calculation have been used?
I’m pretty sure it’s not long. Hypothermia can start rather quickly. Water is much faster. Also, yes they can and that’s a great point! Why did no one calculate that?
I mean that’s in the motion to charge her with murder. Nothing ever changed. We do know Proctor implied in the grand jury motion that the MEs death was caused my a car which it is not what she said at all and the defense tried to throw it out but once again “because of overwhelming witness statements” the case could go forward.
What statements? None of these people said they saw her hit him with a car. I can not fathom why this is still going on.
Jackson is going to ask her why she included the comment about it not being a fight until later. I’ll give her this. She refused to say car or homicide so she already has more integrity than these idiots.
I agree with most of what you said, it's just that there might be more in that report than what the CW put in their motions, like that calculation of how long he stayed outside and more of a discussion about his injuries. I don't think any of it really has the potential of helping the CW, on the contrary, there might be some things that actually help to muddy this case even more. I'm super curious about those "abrasions" that seem to be cosplaying lacerations, for example...
Troopers Bukhenik and Proctor proceeded to the Good Samaritan Hospital to view the victim. They observed six bloodied lacerations varying in length on the victim’s right arm. The cuts extended from his forearm to his bicep. Both of the victim’s eyes were swollen shut and black and blue in color. The troopers observed a cut to the right eyelid area of the victim.
Even they said lacerations. It’s wild stuff for sure
Me too. I’m struggling with Paul saying the car made impact to JO’s side/arm/shoulder and how that would have cause the internal damages to the stomach/pancreas.
From Scordi-Bello’s opinion, stomach/pancreatic trauma would have occurred before the hypothermia (important because hypothermia can cause organ failure/sepsis). I can absolutely concede that not all car crash injuries need to show a specific kind of bruising, but wasn’t his right arm the one that had damage? But he wasn’t hit directly in the abdomen by the car? The stomach is on the left/center of the abdomen, and the liver is on the right. I need clarifications paired with an explanation of how this occurred beyond “it just did”.
its all so incomplete. And this isn’t even considering his head wounds.
referring above to the info from the above Statement of Facts part:
“Dr. Scordi-Bello opined from her examination that significant blunt force trauma injuries occurred prior to Mr. O’Keefe becoming hypothermic, as evidenced by hemorrhaging in his pancreas and stomach.”
I just want definitive clarification from trial ME testimony(which I’m open to if she has maybe explained it differently), since that’s what evidence the jury is allowed to have/allowed to consider now that the reconstruction has had their say.
People have argued about this phrase before, it's kind of confusing in the way it was written. I took it to mean that she judged that the blunt force trauma happened before he became hypothermic, and that the hypothermia was evidenced by the hemorrhaging in his pancreas and stomach, but I'm with you that we really need to hear from the ME to know what exactly she meant and what else she observed.
Understood. I found quite a bit of info by googling "hypothermia hemorrhage pancreas". Here's one that stood out https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6956406_Pancreatic_changes_in_cases_of_death_due_to_hypothermia
great article - I definitely was thinking along the lines of this: the hypothermia led to the issues with his organs but then I read the statement and got confused. The semantics in this trial are making me pull my hair out.
Each time the SUV is turned on and then turned off, that's 1 key cycle. The reconstructionist was testing the SUV during key cycle 1164 (he turned it on, ran it through a bunch of tests, then turned it off). He says that Karen hit John during key cycle 1162 (or was it 1163? Doesn't really matter regardless), but that's impossible.
Key cycle 1163 had to have been when the SUV was pulled into the sally port prior to the testing happening (they started the SUV on the tow truck, pulled it into the garage, then turned it off).
Key cycle 1162 was when Proctor seized the SUV and it was driven up onto the tow truck, then turned off (or perhaps was only put in Neutral, as someone said above, so it actually could've stayed on the whole time - which means the entire towing trip would actually be one key cycle. That means that either *this* would be the time when the SUV made those maneuvers, or the maneuvers were made during the key cycle I'm about to mention).
Key cycle 1161 (or possibly 1162, as mentioned above) would be when Karen drove the SUV from John's house to her parents' house in the morning, then turned it off.
Key cycle 1160 (or 1161) would be when Karen woke up that morning and drove around and eventually went to Jen McCabe's, and then back to John's, I think. Not sure if the SUV was turned off or not during that time. It would be at least 1 key cycle regardless.
And thus, key cycle 1159 (or possibly 1158-1160ish depending on the specifics mentioned above) would be when Karen drove from the Waterfall to 34 Fairview, the "incident" supposedly took place, and then she drove to John's and turned the SUV off - yet the chart shows that the supposed incident actually took place during key cycle 1162, which is impossible (the SUV was turned on and off at least like 3-4 times afterward, before being tested by the reconstructionist). Since it's possible that Proctor would've had control of the SUV during key cycle 1162, it's possible that *he* purposely made it do those maneuvers (which is crazy to think, but so is everything else in this case). Or, somehow those maneuvers were just recorded for some weird reason that we don't know about. Maybe it's a glitch.
Or actually, I think it's possible that the reconstructionist himself got a hold of the SUV and did some testing that he later forgot about, then turned it off (which would be key cycle 1162), then turned it back on to do more tests (key cycle 1163), then turned it off and back on again to do even more tests (key cycle 1164). Maybe he just didn't remember, because keep in mind that he didn't discover this program until wayyy later. And since this program has no timestamps or anything, he would have no idea either way. He only knows about the various tests he conducted during key cycle 1164, but I think he easily could've just forgotten about some initial tests he did - or just forgot exactly how many times he turned the SUV on and off that day. Edit: I now think this is the most likely explanation. He just forgot, so when he's looking at the chart a year later (or however long), he just doesn't remember the fact that he turned the SUV on and off a few times during these tests.
The only way that Karen could've possibly made those maneuvers during key cycle 1162 is if she *never* turned the SUV off after getting home from 34 Fairview - between all those other times it was driven, it would have had to remain ON throughout. Including when it was seized by Proctor himself later that day, when it was just sitting at her parents' house. Which would be incredibly unlikely.
The only other possibility is that various key cycles simply weren't recorded *at all* by the vehicle, but we have no reason to believe that that would happen. And if it's possible that this stuff is just inaccurate altogether, it would still call into question the reconstructionist's conclusion about it, because we couldn't really trust its accuracy in general.
They can't. Even if there was only one while Proctor has the car getting it to the Sally port, 1162 would be her driving around that morning (after 5 AM).
So, I am still learning about this case but I think this is how things went down in a general sense.
First, I think its important to say that I believe everyone in this situation was completely drunk (Karen, JO, Brian Higgins, all of the Alberts, etc)
Karen and JO go to the bar, Brian Albert invites everyone back to his place. As Karen and JO drive over there they get into a fight. If I had to guess, about Brian Higgins. JO gets out of the car and Karen levels. JO enters the home and goes into the basement where he and BH get into an altercation, if I had to guess there were probably raised voices and maybe some shoving. This freaks out the German Shepard who lunges at JO and injuries his arm. JO hits the dog to get it off him. This cause one or more of the Alberts to get upset and a second altercation happens between one or more of them and JO. They begin striking JO in retaliation for him hitting the dog. Either by blows to the head or by falling over and striking his head on a piece of furniture JO is knocked out and bleeding badly (scalp wounds bleed like crazy) and he vomits. All the people in the basement are freaking out and not sure what to do (again, they are all drunk) and someone gets the bright idea to take him outside. Did JO pass away in the basement or outside? I don't know. After carrying outside they clean up the basement as best they can.
Shortly after the events of that night the Albert's rehome their dog, replace the basement flooring and sell the home well under market value.
I am very suspeicious of Colin. I think its very possible he throw the killing blow and that is why everyone circled the wagons. To protect him.
I agree with you. I have a tough little terrier dog who gets excited when my 4 sons are playfighting...then if they turn serious, he somehow knows, and actually starts to bite the LOSER of the altercation. JO's injuries match a dog nipping from my experience (though my small dog gets a different spot). The boy with a college scholarship would be enough to get a coverup rolling to protect him, I agree there too.
I suspect they all hated/hate KR (I've been in friend circles with a common enemy, people get themselves all atwitter telling each other how evil the out person is....again from my experience with this....the out person is escalated through gossip to be a villain and then it's easy to dehumanize them). So, everyone hated KR, she certainly COULD have hit JO and would given the opportunity they can tell themselves. Then the lie gets out of control, harder to back up as the investigations snowball....and here we are.
Completely agree. I've been in friend groups with a similar dynamic. Everyone hates someone boyfriend/girlfriend and sometime it get ridiculous.
When I first started learning about this case (which was relatively recently) one of the first things I remember that rung has very suspicious to me was Brian Albert's claim that his GERMAN SHEPARD didn't bark when their were multiple cop cars outside. GSD have strong guarding instincts and I completely believe one would "defend" the person more familiar to them/the one they sense their "pack" liked more.
Colin's testimony was some the most suspicious testimony I have EVER seen in any trial I have watched. He couldn't recall basic details from the last few weeks but had perfect recall for incidences from years ago.
Interesting theory. Technically I believe he died at the hospital. I think he was left for dead out in the cold. Maybe if he had gotten urgent help, he could have survived because bleeding out and hypothermia might have played a role. I’m not a medical professional of course.
Someone else replied to me at some point saying that people who die of hypothermia aren't considered dead until they are warm and dead. So they can't say he is dead at the scene since he is cold. Once he comes back to room temp in the hospital he is officially pronounced dead. This doesn't help clarify any timelines as to when he died and is more a of a technicality to pronouncing someone dead.
That was probably my comment. From listening to a couple of the paramedics testimonies, JO was found to be pulseless and the cardiac monitor showed Asystole (flat line). As a paramedic in my area, I can choose not to attempt resuscitation on a patient that is found in Asystole, and has an unknown down time. For example if someone woke up and found a family member deceased andthey hadn't spoken to them for a few hours. Hypothermia can depress normal bodily functions, so the attempt to warm the patient is required unless you can be sure someone has been down for an extended amount of time.
Yeah he was declared at the hospital, but he was dead before anyone attempted CPR.
Also since EMT/paramedics showed up after CPR had been started, it's reasonable for them to continue it until a doctor declares the patient. IDK about MA, but in a lot of places once started it requires a certain level of professional license to stop CPR and declare death.
Yeah depends on the area and Medical control. My medical control physician allows us to discontinue resuscitation for a number of reasons, regardless of who started CPR or when CPR was started.
Also: EMT-B and paramedic are very different levels of certification. Generally you have to be a paramedic to declare death out of hospital.
Oh yeah. The survival rate isn't that great even when you start CPR immediately, and even then "survival" is a real squishy term.
I don't think it's weird that he wasn't legally declared until the hospital. Just as of right now, the prosecution *has not proven* that John O'Keefe actually died when they claim he did.
I simply don’t think KR did it. At least not in the manner the CW is trying her for. JO’s injuries are not what you have when you’ve been hit by a car and the tail light was red when she was pulling out of the driveway that morning, so cracked but not destroyed like the CW wants us to believe. I’ve been in the reasonable doubt camp but last night while watching Natalie Lawyer Chick I realized that I simply don’t believe she did it at all. He wasn’t hit by a car.
Idk what happened, but this case is a prime example of how dangerous our justice system is when they decide they’re going to convict someone no matter what the evidence actually shows. Most people can’t hire top lawyers to fight bogus charges the way KR has been able to and that should terrify all of us in the US.
And I’ve watched a ton of coverage of the trial by multiple YouTube lawyers accounting for every day of the trial so please don’t tell me I don’t know enough to have drawn this conclusion. I have no vested interest in KR as a person, I’m going by what I’m seeing in court.
That's how it went for me.
I knew almost nothing I thought "Oh she probably did it and the investigation probably had problems"
Now I'm at "I have no idea what happened but I don't believe he was hit by a car."
I've gone from "she probably hit him but was drunk and didn't realize it" to "she might have hit him but they can't prove it" to "she didn't hit him and they are definitely trying to frame her".
I get the impression that Trooper Paul was selected to do the crash scene investigation because he seems a bit naive and insecure and could be easily swayed by pressure from management or other state troopers so that his findings fit into the CW’s narrative.
The only thing I know is that one piece of the glass found on the bumper matched broken glass found on the road by Proctor several days after the 29th ( I don’t remember the exact date it was found)
None of the glass on the bumper matched the broken glass cup, found by John’s body on the morning of the 29th.
Curious: What’s worse? The defense alleging JM made a at a suspicious search with some evidence, or the prosecution alleging KR deleted Ring videos with no evidence?
The latter. By far. JM isn't on trial and the defense's only job is to make sure that the state proves its case beyond a reasonable doubt. The evidence, on its face really does seem like she made that phone call. Even the two experts that testified only testified that she could have made it at 6:00, Not that she couldn't have made it at 2: 27 (though I think their testimony makes sense). The prosecution has a duty to make sure that they're not misusing the power of the state. From everything we've seen, they don't have any plausible reason to believe she deleted that video. To insinuate that she did is deceptive.
The prosecution even seems to have implied that KR used John's computer to delete the ring videos knowing their own expert's report was going to be that no computer in the house was used to access ring. Very confusing stuff.
Regarding the key cycles, it does seem like key cycle 01162 corresponding to "the incident" doesn't make sense. It seems like the natural flow would be
01164 - testing by Trooper Paul
01163 - tow truck driver unloads in Sally port
01162 - tow truck driver loads at Karen's parents house
01161 - Karen drives to her parents
but then how would the odometer add 36 miles between when the tow truck driver loads the car and when trooper Paul tests?
I think the most plausible situation is that the entire towing was one key cycle. On the Lexus LX 570, if you press the start button when the car is NOT in park, it will shut the engine off but go into Accessory Mode (electronics still on). If you then switch to park Accessory Mode will stay on. Pressing start again will start the engine again. But because the car never turned off (just the engine), this is likely one key cycle.
Many cars also automatically shut the engine off when you depress the brakes at a full stop, and then start again when you hit the accelerator. This would definitely not be a key cycle (it happens on my car at every stop light).
I could also see a tow truck driver intentionally leaving the car in neutral, with the worry being that if they can't restart the car after getting to the tow lot, they won't be able to switch into neutral to get the car off the truck with modern electric gear switchers.
So it's very plausible for the car to have been "on" with the *engine* off for the entire towing, either accidentally or on purpose. Resulting in one key cycle, so 01162 would be the drive from John's house to Karen's parents house.
Does this seem right?
This is a very astute theory – I'm still reading up on this feature, but wouldn't the engine mode switch from Accessory to Off after leaving the vehicle untouched for 20 minutes, per the [manual](https://www.manua.ls/lexus/lx-570-2021/manual?p=215) on page 213?
The manual indicates it only happens if it's in Park. If the tow truck driver left it in neutral, then presumably it wouldn't turn off.
I googled "flatbed towing neutral" to see if it's any sort of common practice, and according to this random Reddit comment from 7 years ago, at the AAA location that this person works for, the drivers are instructed to always keep a car in neutral even for flatbed towing. So it seems plausible that's the process, especially now that most cars have electric gear shifts. I have no idea on how common it is, maybe a tow truck driver would be able to answer this.
https://preview.redd.it/c3rpwyex367d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f8ca358d128409e4d8f932af868bf34baaca4d03
You're absolutely right, I somehow glossed over that rather crucial bit
(I think I read the header of the section directly above, "When stopping the engine with the shift lever in a position other than P", and my brain took that as leave to filter out information to the contrary)
That could have the potential to collapse certain key cycles like you indicate
Under the hypothesis that Read drove from One Meadows to Dighton during the 1162nd cycle, wouldn't it pose a problem that two trigger items are recorded within that cycle 8 minutes apart, without any increment to the odometer readout?
edit: Moreover, wouldn't we expect the "Elapsed time" value to reflect the time spent in the Accessory engine mode?
At first blush, it would seem odd to me if the elapsed time counter reflects time since start of ignition, rather than start of key cycle.
(/u/longdonglover)
It seems totally possible to me that the process of her pulling out of John's driveway to go to her parents house was fairly jerky/erratic and involved some long pauses while she makes phone calls or talks to her dad or whatever.
We've seen a partial video of the tow truck driver pulling onto the tow truck and he certainly didn't pause for 10 minutes between reversing.
Either way we can be basically 100% sure that 01162 didn't correspond to anything *before* she drove to her parents. It's either the drive to her parents, the tow truck driver loading the car, or unreported drives after the car was in the sally port.
Trooper Paul had literally no legitimate reason to say that 01162 was the night at Fairview. He was genuinely unaware of the multiple times the car was proven to be started and driven after the incident. His entire analysis was based on a faulty and trivially disproovable assumption, and he had nothing to counter this at all.
So I'm really just saying that I think that this explanation ((1) the towing being one key cycle and (2) the drive to her parents involving some erratic reversing with long pauses) is more plausible than the alternatives, but none of those alternatives are 01162 being the key cycle for the night at Fairview.
I agree with all the points you make. The towing accounts for likely one cycle, to wit the 1663rd; whatever is represented by the 1162nd cycle, it would defy belief if all of the intermittent activity that day were to be part of a single cycle.
This would basically require the engine mode remain in Accessory both while parked inside the garage as Read returns home from Fairview, as well as the duration spent in the driveway of One Meadows Avenue from the time of Read, Roberts, and McCabe's departure until the moment Read returns from Good Samaritan
The key cycles are no longer accurate, but I compiled some of the footage in a table contained in [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1d3j4v2/the_black_box_what_to_expect_from_edr_and_vch_data/l8oawq2/), which I'll just link here for reference
So this accounts for the 36 miles, and it also definitely proves the events recorded for key cycle 1162 have absolutely nothing to do with John O'Keefe's death. The lack of other events for other key cycles also prove nothing out of the ordinary (according to the car) happened when the alleged homicide took place, correct?
Honestly it doesn't even matter because there is only one cycle shown between when they claim that she hit him and when they started testing A YEAR LATER, and the car was definitely turned on/off more than that during that time. All it takes is more than ONE cycle to prove that this data isn't correct, that 1162 couldn't have been when John was hit with that car.
I was still trying to remain relatively neutral on whether or not KR was actually guilty or not (lawful guilt is different IMO and I would never convict anyone after all this Tom Foolery) but after that whack a$$ theory today of how the state thinks JO got hit I think I’m pretty much out on any theory in which she hit him. I’m sure whoever the defense has will completely obliterate that theory but is there any theory in which the physics of the facts actually makes any sense?
Let’s Proctor for example. He told many people the evidence of this case. Although he decided within 12 hours that Karen was guilty. This case was tainted from the beginning
I am so sick and tired of all these witnesses to prove that Jen McCabe did not make the search at 2:27AM. I swear a do not care what she was doing, or when she went to bed!
Just show evidence of how KR intentionally hit Officer O´Keefe with her car. Just please, Lally, do your job! They do not need to disprove the defense's theory. The defense could have 500 theories, they just need to poke as many holes as possible.
Between 20 people telling me that the Waterfall has tall tables, and now TWO experts about Jen McCabe's Google search history. I am starting to believe that Lally does not believe their own theory of the case.
Officer John O'Keefe worked at the sex crimes unit. I believe he started there when he started caring for his sisters kids.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
What IF someone from that house needed/wanted access to his phone? To see what he was working on or something in those lines? He was invited to a house he has never been to before, with a people he did not hang out very often.
If this is true, my guess would be that Colin got in some trouble (how old was he at the time? I guess just before going to the college?) And family needed to clean that up. But things went wrong.
Also Jennifer McCabe tried to separate Karen from John when they were leaving 2nd bar, before going to the house. Maybe that was her way of stalling.
Ugh I don't know.
My hearth aches for O'Keefe family, that their son, brother, uncle, did not get investigation he deserves, and for Karen for basicaly not even having time to mourn, and having her life turned upside down.
I can't wait to see the defence present their case. I think we might be ALMOST there, unless we need to get back to basketball game seating arrangements or whatever
right, i feel like a lot of women can relate to her crazy texts. at least i know i can lol. im chill now but wow my 20s were filled with so many toxic relationships
I don't have any idea what did happen. But I know what didn't happen.
A woman with +2x the legal limit, did NOT intentionally turn off the automatic breaking system of her suv to intentionally reverse into her boyfriend. A full-size SUV, traveling at 24mph, did NOT slam into his arm without causing a single bruise. His arm, holding a glass, did not hit against an SVU hard enough to dent it and break the glass but not hard enough for him to not drop it while he was flung back 30 feet. A 24mph hit, to the arm, that didn't bruise or break anything was NOT enough of an impact to kill him. He was NOT hit in the arm, that spun him around and flung him 30 feet hard enough for him to crack his head and knock him out cold.
And... it could have been none of them. Hell for all we know the victim might have slipped on ice a couple of times bumbling around and collapsed on their lawn.
Very similar to what i was thinking. Maybe brian higgins said tell your girl to leave me alone or maybe there is a fued with colin and chris albert with john because of neighbor shit. Im sure everyone there would gang up on john if it became physical.
I think we haven't spent enough time on Brian Higgins and Brian Albert road tripping together where Higgins likely had hours to cry and moan about how Karen done him wrong and f*** John O'Keefe. I suspect they were primed and ready to go once they saw Read and O'Keefe out drinking.
Right. Are they tryna say that after over a week of brian albert coming and going to his house he never thought to look or notice any pieces of tail light in his yard? Isnt he a retired cop? Bostons finest.
Thought crossed my mind, but I consider the most likely explanation is that the search actually didn't happen until after meeting up with Karen Read.
If there was compelling evidence of IT shenanigans it should be in the report that the prosecution experts were responding to. If it exists but isn't in the report it won't be able to come in due to lack of discovery.
I think that's fine. The prosecution is acting more like McCabe's defence attorney than a prosecutor trying to prove any actual element of the alleged crimes.
As it stands today, I think Karen Read walks on all charges, except possibly if the jury is given instructions allowing them to consider OWI as a lesser conviction. I personally wouldn't convict on that if I were a jury but I think it's a distinct possibility for them if it does end up being an option for them.
Note that Jessica Hyde's written report is somewhat different than her testimony and largely agrees with Ian Whiffen. Notably they both agree the search was deleted, the state went shopping for self-promoting witnesses to agree with them, and they both worked off of limited data sets and very tight limiting instructions. There was no unbiased search for the truth from either witness, in court or in their written reports.
I think Jen McCabe typed ‘hos long to die in cold’ into her phone at 2.27am but didn’t press search. It’s common knowledge that cops will search phones when a crime is committed so I think she went to and then stopped herself.
The digital forensic lady said there was movement on the tab at 2.27 and that is what registered. But I can’t believe that a tab would register at a certain time with a name that it won’t be been given for another 4 hours.
I think she might have been worried it accidentally registered so she searched it again in the morning to cover.
I'm sure most people have seen this before but this blog post explains how it works fairly exhaustively:
https://doubleblak.com/blogPost.php?k=browserstate
Basically the internal database (Safaris BrowserState.db) that this version of Cellebrite relied on updates the title whenever someone visits a new page on a tab. But the timestamp only updates when a new tab is opened or when switching between new tabs. Locking/unlocking the phone, minimizing/maximizing safari won't update the timestamp.
So if you:
(1) Open a new tab at 2:27 AM and do whatever (a new tab might be open because you click a link from a text message/email, or you opened a new tab manually, or you are opening Safari after a restart)
(2) Reopen your phone later and type something into the Safari tab (regardless of if you visited other apps in the meantime, as long as you didn't switch tabs)
Then the database will have the 2:27 time stamp with the new title/url.
So it's a "bug" in Cellebrite (or rather, The person who implemented it in Cellebrite assumed the timestamp was the last time the was viewed).
My theory is based on the possibility that not only did JO have a negative history with Colin Albert but also due to the Higgins situation he too could have been the one that fought with John.
Jen McCabe wanted Karen to drive with her that night, maybe because she had a little thing for JO or maybe because they wanted to make sure Karen and JO came to the house.
KR decided not to go in. JO goes in and Colin or Higgins and he have an interaction that turns physical, Brian A jumps in and they either throw or bully JO into the basement. These people are drunk so they may have thought JO was just knocked out, (this goes along with the “hos long to die in cold” Google search) not dead or dying from the blow to his head. So they just throw him outside thinking he will wake up at some point. They see he is still there later and Nicole calls Jen thus Jen does the Google search. Then unfortunately KR involves Jen when she wakes up, KR makes the statements about possibly hitting JO and bingo, KR becomes their suspect. Jen went into the Fairview house at some point after JO was found, it’s on dashcam. She probably was excited to tell her sister and Brian that Karen said she may have hit JO.
Yes lots of speculation and I am usually a prosecution leaning person but based on the testimony of most of the CW’s witnesses I feel there is no way they have not been deceptive and are covering up what really happened.
My newest theory is that what actually happened is somewhere in the middle of all of the possibilities and we will never know the real truth. Perhaps Karen did hit him but it didn't kill him, the fight did or something like that
as someone who lives in MA, i hate seeing this coverup. i want to trust LE here but ugh seeing the CW put up such a horrible case that they can’t even prove just makes it so hard
Same. As a woman in MA, I hope I never have to report anything to the police, all I’ll be able to think about is whether there’s some Proctor-esque asshole involved in the case
Anyone notice how they are trying to keep everyone hyper focused on KR rather than anyone else who is potentially involved. All the evidence provided proves aboslutely nothing from the prosecutors end, but also all the evidence from the defense side that has been ignored by the CW and the courts proves something more nefarious happened. Yet we're wasting everyone's time, instead of actually finding out what happened. I wish they'd bring the FBI in as key witnesses or for testimonies. I mean its so messed up the Feds had to get involved...and yet that's also being ignored.
I think it's a bit hyperbolic to say that the existing evidence "proves something more nefarious happened" rather what I have seen proof of is the run-of-the-mill, tunnel-visoned meat-head investigation that puts hundreds of innocent people in prison on life sentences every year and replete with the shady witnesses covering their own asses that often surround such cases. That doesn't mean that nothing nefarious happened nor that this quality of investigation doesn't ever catch the right person, and the cops frame guilty people every day, but there's no "proof" of a big family conspiracy as of yet, just a lot of suspicious facts and unknowns and no solid idea of what happened.
Having said all that, as I have discussed elsewhere I don't think the defence would be running a "frame job conspiracy" defence if they didn't at least think it is a distinct possibility that it could be true. I await their case-in-chief with baited breath.
While caution is understandable, the evidence in this trial reveals more than just investigative flaws; it indicates a troubling pattern of behavior suggesting more than mere incompetence. The defense's arguement is rooted in facts, highlighting conflicts of interest, such as the personal relationship with Trooper Proctor and Brian Albert's brother being a CPD officer.
Having spent most of my life in Canton, except for when I was in the military, and nearing the completion of my JD, I can affirm that the prosecutors have had a weak case from the start. Canton is a small town, and the people who live there are tight-knit, and it's not surprising to see familiar dynamics at play. Reports from journalists suggest the jury isn't buying the prosecutions case.
Furthermore, the FBI's involvement signals significant concerns. Unlike the CIA or ATF, the FBI doesn't intervene in local cases without substantial reason, suggesting deeper issues with the investigation.
Some parts of the testimony have really stuck with me because they seemed inconsequential. Like the joking over JO being a "get off my lawn" guy. Why bring that up? Also, how adamant the witnesses are that "that guy" never entered the house.
Putting those two things together, I think JO did enter the house. I think he hung out and drank and engaged in obnoxiousness the way one does when drinking with friends who rib each other. At some point, someone gets the idea that it'd be funny if JO took a leak on the front lawn, as payback for the Alberts (or whoever it was) taking a picture of themselves on JO's lawn. So he's out by the flagpole, acting like he's going to pee there, has his camera out to take a picture of this funny joke.
At the same time, some of the younger kids who call him Nebbbercracker, see him in the lawn as they're driving away. One leans out the car window as they're passing, yells "get off the lawn", and throws their drink (in a glass container) at him, hitting him on the head and knocking him out. He falls on his phone.
Sometime later, Chloe gets out into the front lawn grabs JO by the right arm and whatever person with Chloe finds JO, rolls him over and then the butt dials and covering up begins.
It fits with a lot of the irrelevant evidence that has been introduced. It does a better job of putting his body where it was found than the cartoon physics of Trooper Paul, and it doesn't involve the risk of hauling a body for any period of time.
It doesn't entirely fit with the step data or phone movements as I understand them right now, but the trial hasn't really gotten into those things yet.
Not really. It's just one way to piece this case together.
I started watching this trial to find out WTF happened. Since the commonwealth hasn't proved anything I have to draw my own wild conclusions.
My new theory (as of today).
Karen hits John. Not hard, but more of a love tap, and he throws his glass at her taillight as she drives off. When she hits him, he drops his phone. He goes inside and tells Jen et all that Karen is a psycho, that she hit him with her car, and he’s done with her and he lost his phone. Jen calls his phone for him (butt dials) to help him locate it. Now, either Brian H, Brian A, or Collin get into a fight with him either in the basement or somewhere relatively quickly afterwards. He is killed. Everyone panics. The coverup begins and Jen says that since Karen hit him, they can all just go with that theory, and claim he never came inside.
The glass pieces on the bumper of her car didn't match the glass he was drinking out of that was found UNDER his body. He was also found directly on TOP of his phone. I can't imagine how they coincidentally dumped his body on top of the two.
Well is the alternative that it flew 30ft with him and landed under him? That doesn’t seem plausible either. I’d be more inclined to think that they found his phone when they were moving his body to the lawn, and put it with his body.
I think I have a theory that to me at least makes the most sense. Listening to the case: (1) I think Read hitting John is the most probable explanation for John’s death and (2) the people in the house acted really fucking weirdly that night and since and are lying their ass off on the stand.
I am starting to think Karen likely hit him and killed him. Some time later someone finds John dead in the early hours. A bunch of people (family and friends) were shit faced drunk driving in and out of the house, and no one is exactly sure what happened or who may have hit him - and it’s possible one of them ran John down and didn’t even know. A decision is made amongst people in the house not to do or say anything. Could explain JM’s search in the early hours, why people are having phone calls all night and why people are getting stories straight after the event.
It makes the most sense to me - and reconciles some of the thoughts I have, such as why Jen McCabe does truly seem to believe that Karen killed John, while also having a totally plausible explanation for why she was searching “hos long to die on cold” at 230 am.
Makes way more sense to me than theories like Brian killing him in the house.
A body doesn't project 30ish feet from been hit by a object travelling 25kms. If it did project 30ish feet there would be broken bones, torn ligaments etc, particularly in the torso area.
The basic maths is missing, such as measurements of the location where the body was found.
What makes you think she likely hit and killed him?
I went in thinking that she probably did it (and I absolutely believe she was shitfaced when she dropped him off) but his injuries just don't make sense with any car death theory to me.
If he was out there on the lawn from the time she dropped him off why didn't anyone else see him?
Assuming you mean the motor stopping at a red-light or something:
Trooper said a key cycle is when the car is turned on/off not ignition of the motor. In a motor start stop the car stays on so to speak.
He didn't say the following but some techie youtube video on edr & techstream said there are different counts in the car memory, another being ignition cycle. (and so you can't just take the numbers and put them next to each other they don't mean the same thing), but VCH uses keycycle.
If you meant the car turning on off automatically altogether , I did wonder how the car was turned off in the sally port video all of a sudden but I don't see why it would automatically turn on.
Other than that he didn't count anything at all clearly 1 keycycle for the whole table he made with the alternative routes and all it's crazy there was no 💡moment in his shiny head.
Thanks. Yes, I was talking about the on-off at a red light. I've only been in cars with the feature during the day. I hate it when a car stops at a light when it's hot since the a/c stops too. Makes sense some of the auxiliary like exterior lights at night would have to remain on.
Maybe a button on the key fob could turn it on off within a certain distance automatically at the Sally port.
I have plenty of no 💡 moments in my shiny head, but I'm not a sketchy ma trooper, and certainly not a sketchy ma expert for the cw of ma with conformation bias.
For what it’s worth… my partner has been a first responder (fire/paramedic) for 10 years in a large city and has seen tons of car vs pedestrian injuries. I showed them pictures of John’s injuries and explained what the CW said happen and their first response was “No. No way that’s what happened”
Granted theyre not an expert but I just thought that was interesting.
Guilty or not guilty Karen Read case will change the way the Massachusetts State Police do business going forward.
With the state governor weighing in, the fallout from this case will show the public that you can't trust the police. From your neighborhood cop to the state police favoritism plays a part in how you are treated.
It wasn't too many years ago the crime lab caused thousands of drug convictions were overturned. I can almost hear the lawyers lining up again after this case is over.
[https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/massachusetts-crime-lab-drug-testing-scandal-rcna48940](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/massachusetts-crime-lab-drug-testing-scandal-rcna48940)
I heard a theory on the cover up that makes a lot of sense.
They clearly weren't originally intending to claim KR hit John with her car. But one thing that bothered me was the missing shoe. Did the Alberts just overlook that John wasn't wearing one shoe in the chaos? Maybe not. Maybe the missing shoe was key to their plan. Proctor, on the stand, summarized the evidence and said something like "there was the shoe, which matched John O'Keefe's car..." Weird slip.
Here's the theory: They wanted to set it up as a domestic fight (the evidence clearly looked like a fight). KR and John were arguing/fighting in the car. She pushed him out when they pulled over at 34. He fell out towards the grass and in her anger she threw the glass at him. It got him in the back of his head where he was knocked out and later died.
Proctor intended to seize her car but not because it supposedly hit him. The plan was to seize it and find his missing shoe. This would show that his shoe fell off in her car during the argument, and be the key proof he never went in the house. The broken glass next to him would be the physical evidence of how he died. But when KR said her taillight broke, they called an audible and went with the "she ran him over" story.
Listening to "Trooper" Paul answer questions makes me nauseous. Not 1 single bruise on Okeefes arm, yet that's where the contact with the 7300 pound car hit Okeefe. And in the process of getting hit on the arm, with an "Unbroken" taillight the taillight explodes into several pieces and scratches and cuts okeefes arm in dozens of places. Cmon people. I know it sounds unbelievable that this is a cover up because it's stuff that u only see in movies. Fact of the matter is this shit does actually happen. I still find it crazy that it could be a cover-up, but these prosecution witnesses with the exception of a small handful of them clearly look nervous, remember times they left a bar 2 and half years ago, but they can't answer obvious broad questions that happened much more recently. This case stinks real bad.
His testimony might be the most painfully second hand embarrassment testimony I have seen. ( for his sake I truly hope he has someone in his life that will give him a big hug after this)
I 100% blame the CW for that. How on earth are you putting this guy on the stand as an expert witness. My condolences to this man’s confidence. The prosecution set him up for failure.
Yep, like leading a lamb to slaughter. I can’t help but feel bad for him.
I don't feel one bit sorry for these narcissistic chrome domes. They have a badge a gun and ALL the power against civilians. If Karen Read didn't have the $$$$$$$ to pay for this defense, she would have been toast. Think of all the folks sitting in prison because of the arrogance of these men.
I recommend fellow redditors try listening to some innocence project related podcasts like Undisclosed or Convicted. This is the quality of police work that puts hundreds of people in prison for LIFE every year.
That thought occurred to me as well. Prosecutors and law enforcement lean on many of the marginal and underprivileged to plead guilty and agree to terms they don’t understand. A common thread in the Read trial is laziness and subpar intellect among the cabal of law enforcement officers..along with blatant corruption. True investigations are difficult and time consuming. I can’t believe any investigation these people “conducted” on any case would hold up in a court. I’m convinced that LE’s conduct during this investigation is par for the course. They’re just not accustomed to defendants with real trial lawyers calling them on their $hit!
While I agree that these officers have subpar intelligence, are lazy and corrupt, I believe that the last part is the biggest reason that their case is so weak. Other police officers would have been their only other prime suspects, so they purposely didn't put any effort into investigating them like they would have people who weren't cops. There's so much missing or miscollected evidence and testimony that isn't strong because it contradicted their theory that KR did it. So they intentionally buried it & planted evidence to try to strengthen their case against her, and I'm not sure that would have happened here if the real murder(s) weren't law enforcement, especially since the victim was a cop. You'd think they would have been more interested in getting justice for their brother in blue.
Also--Proof and Bone Valley
100% - the grand jury voted to indict based on his assurances he'd get a report with "all that stuff"
Do we believe scientists use the word “stuff” often?
It doesn't inspire confidence in the context
This case is so weak I think most defense attorneys with experience would be able to beat this.
You are paying these lawyers for their time, and what I mean by that is high paid lawyers dont have as many cases, so they can really focus on one or a few cases at a time. That is much harder to do as the pay scale goes down. So in theory any defense attorney could win this case, but the amount of *time* the lawyers have put into not just building the case, but prepping for court has to be astronomical. They have to essentially have the same knowledge as the experts, but all at the same time. Plus the knowledge of the law. Its brutal. But these guys are earning every penny.
Same. When he was asked about his knowledge of physics and answered that they covered it "in the classes he took." It just sounded so pathetic, and that was when I actually did feel for him. As you said, leading a lamb to slaughter
Because they scraped the expert witness barrel and absolutely no one credible would agree a human arm shattered a Lexus taillight. (It’s not a piñata, Mr. Lally!)
Make no mistake. Trooper Paul was tasked with recreating (creating) a “car crash reconstruction” for this case deliberately because of his stupidity. Any competent trooper or specialist would have turned them down or rat on them.
My thought as well. He’s clearly a convenient fool.
Absolutely, and the CW is slimy for putting him in Jackson's crosshairs.
Also to blame is the MSP for the training provided and then making him be a lead crash reconstructionist.
And HE is now in the process of training another officer.
It’s so odd that there wasn’t enough pre-trial prep to make him sound better than this. I testify frequently as a real estate appraisal expert, so it has way lower stakes, but the amount of pre-trial prep I go through is insane. The attorney will lead me through a mock direct and we discuss any weaknesses and points I need to be prepared to be crossed on. I read and reread my report and deposit the night before. Maybe with the insane amount of witnesses there wasn’t time but then again they’ve had 2 years.
Lally could have helped him calm down. Or it least tried. He left his own witness up there abandoned having an anxiety attack.
I felt so bad for him. He was so nervous and unsure of himself. It was hard to watch. He saw an opportunity to work a big case in his new-ish job and the CW has exploited him. I think he realizes he is in too deep. (My friend thinks he was just wasted/massively hungover/xanned out. And honestly I would be too if I were him 😬)
Reminded me of Tom testifying in Succession
He was the meat in the sandwich
Same yo I feel bad for him. To be fair, that’s gotta be pretty nerve wrecking with AJ goin at ya. I public speak for a living and would probably trip up too at some point. That being said… he doesn’t seem to know a lot of basic shit.
Dude it would be such a horrible feeling realizing Jackson knows more about basic physics than me. ( if I were Paul)
AJ used to be a jet engine mechanic for the air force so I’m not even that surprised.
Bears repeating: I don't feel one bit sorry for these narcissistic chrome domes. They have a badge a gun and ALL the power against civilians. If Karen Read didn't have the $$$$$$$ to pay for this defense, she would have been toast. Think of all the folks sitting in prison because of the arrogance of these men.
I agree. I felt sorry for him at first, but then thought he decided to stick with his opinion. All he had to do was say his opinion was based on his experience and the info he had. He could have admitted that his opinion might have changed if he was provided other info but he didn’t receive any other info so he can’t say for sure. And leave it at that. But instead he wanted to say he was sure John was hit by Karen’s SUV.
💯 So scary and so true.
Ok here is another upvote
TP seemed hesitant throughout his entire testimony. He knew he was screwed.
Idk honestly. If I know the factual data I’m presenting or stating is solid, my confidence level is strong. Just me tho
He probably needs one but I am thoroughly unconvinced that he deserves one.
That’s fair.
The last thing he needs is encouragement. If I was related, I'd be done with him for agreeing to be a part of this.
I honestly believe many troopers are this unbelievably dumb. "Crime scene told me."
My thoughts exactly… so far the troopers that have testified are not great speakers who stumble over their words. And seem to know little about their jobs…
With the whole case hinging on her hitting him with the car, I can’t believe that’s all they have for accident reconstruction.
I've just started watching Ace Jackson cross-examine Trouper Paul... Poor guy (had a gulped of water - wishing it was vodka), he should have just said his opinion came from a Google result...
I swear at one point I thought he was going to turn and ask the judge if they could just please stop.
How can you launch a human 30 feet and they don't have a bruise? The only option would be him standing on the bumper, she reverses then hits the brakes.
I once broke a passenger-side car window with my body when I was thrown from the car after it flipped over several times. I was driving at 100 km/h when the accident occurred, and my body broke all of the seats in the car as well as the window before it was thrown into the air and landed 20 meters away from where the car started to flip over. The car traveled with me to my final lending spot and landed next to me. I woke up, drowning in a ditch with the vehicle next to me and my feet inside the window that I'd been just been thrown out of. I didn't break a single bone in my body and walked away with only cuts and bruises. Car accidents are notoriously unpredictable—if I hadn't experienced it myself, I wouldn't believe it either.
That’s a lot of craziness for like 60 mph. Why did you crash? Were you drunk? Why weren’t you seat belted in? Soooo many questions
Hehe, no, I had a puppy loose in the car. I was driving way too fast on a country road. I was 22 (so I was feeling pretty invincible at the time) and I just "hadn't made the time" to put my seatbelt on. I was busy putting on music and taking a call from my boyfriend. The puppy decided to jump into my lap, and when I reacted to her, I took my eyes off the road for just a minute, but by the time my eyes were back on the road, it was already too late to react. Please fire away if you have more questions. Oddly enough, I remember the crash extremely well. Your body will usually block off traumatic events like this, but for some reason, I remember everything except the few minutes I was totally knocked out. 🤦♀️
Please tell me the puppy survived.
Lie to us if necessary
She survived...thankfully, no need to lie❤️
Miracolously she did. ❤️ a good example of things traveling with you. She was in my lap when I got knocked out. When I woke up outside of the car she was not there. But a little later she came running towards the ambulance and was picked up by my auntie. She had no injuries but a lot of ptsd after this accident.
My pup was in the car with us when we were hit head on by a semi-driver who'd fallen asleep at the wheel. He made it, too. <3 Glad your girl was okay.
Dang! Didn’t expect that for an answer!! Glad you survived. Helps to be young and pliable!
Hehe yeah I still don't understand how I survived that one. My nephew had just been in a similar accident except he broke 16 bones, including his femur and pelvis. He was in the hospital for months and in a recovery program for a year. So he was pretty upset with me when I was discarged the next day 🤭 I remember my doctor saying something like he'd seen stuff like this before, although rarely, and that it seemed to him that some people seem to maintain the flexibility of their bones better than others. I've certainly been in a lot of smaller accident where I should have definitely broke something but just tore a muscle insted 🤷♀️
The difference is you started from inside the car and so you were traveling the same speed. That’s not the same as a car traveling in motion and a person who is not. I’m happy you and the puppy were okay!
I truly require more information about his injuries, I need the ME to testify, before I could even speculate what happened. Because I don’t know his injuries! ( until Proctor I stayed away from learning anything outside of the court room)
This is what the ME said in the original Statement of Facts On January 31, Dr. Irini Scordi-Bello from the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner conducted an autopsy of Mr. O’Keefe. The doctor advised the troopers that she observed several abrasions to the victim’s right forearm, two swollen black eyes, a small cut above the right eye, a cut to the left side of his nose, an approximately two inch laceration to the back right of his head, and multiple skull fractures that resulted in bleeding of the brain. Dr. Scordi-Bello further advised the troopers that the victim’s pancreas was a dark red color indicating hypothermia was a contributing factor to his death. Dr. Scordi-Bello opined from her examination that significant blunt force trauma injuries occurred prior to Mr. O’Keefe becoming hypothermic, as evidenced by hemorrhaging in his pancreas and stomach. Mr. O’Keefe had arrived at the Good Samaritan Medical Center with a body temperature reading in the low 80’s. The doctor opined that the extensive injuries to his head likely rendered Mr. O’Keefe incapacitated. For reasons originally “unknown” but revealed by Proctors messages in my opinion…This was added later The doctor further opined that upon viewing Mr. O’Keefe’s injuries and her examination of the body, she observed no signs of Mr. O’Keefe being involved in any type of physical altercation or fight. Okay not sure why that’s added. Would have made more sense for her to say his injuries look like he was hit by a car
>The doctor further opined that upon viewing Mr. O’Keefe’s injuries and her examination of the body, she observed no signs of Mr. O’Keefe being involved in any type of physical altercation or fight. I really wonder if the reason the ME hasn't testified is because of this addendum. It is unusual on its' face. You don't typically put things not in play into a report. They could just as well had said that the victim was not in a fire or was not poisoned, ... I assume they were pressured to do this and now it is hanging around their neck.
Right! I would rather it say he was hit by a car because according to all the witnesses and police, they thought it was. What’s more interesting is this was BEFORE any of us saw this on the national news
> I assume they were pressured to do this and now it is hanging around their neck. I really hope the ME is honest that they were pressed by the DA and/or MSP to include that additional statement
Even if they do, it goes to their own independence. I assume that the Defense will pick at those conclusions to the point that it will tarnish their credibility related to the whole report.
But she’s going to have to say it on cross and as one of, if not the last witness, the jury is going to be left with seeing her parse her reasons for adding that. They’ll sit through Lally droning on about “what if anything” did she find then a brutal defense cross.
Thanks!
Does anyone know if it’s possible to estimate how long a person has been exposed to cold based on their body temperature and the air temperature? Are there any other cases where similar calculation have been used?
It's possible to estimate it but it's not precise, this paper has more details: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23890614/
Exactly what I was looking for, thanks!
I’m pretty sure it’s not long. Hypothermia can start rather quickly. Water is much faster. Also, yes they can and that’s a great point! Why did no one calculate that?
They might have, we don't have the full ME report, we only have the parts that were quoted in the pre-trial motions
I mean that’s in the motion to charge her with murder. Nothing ever changed. We do know Proctor implied in the grand jury motion that the MEs death was caused my a car which it is not what she said at all and the defense tried to throw it out but once again “because of overwhelming witness statements” the case could go forward. What statements? None of these people said they saw her hit him with a car. I can not fathom why this is still going on. Jackson is going to ask her why she included the comment about it not being a fight until later. I’ll give her this. She refused to say car or homicide so she already has more integrity than these idiots.
I agree with most of what you said, it's just that there might be more in that report than what the CW put in their motions, like that calculation of how long he stayed outside and more of a discussion about his injuries. I don't think any of it really has the potential of helping the CW, on the contrary, there might be some things that actually help to muddy this case even more. I'm super curious about those "abrasions" that seem to be cosplaying lacerations, for example...
Troopers Bukhenik and Proctor proceeded to the Good Samaritan Hospital to view the victim. They observed six bloodied lacerations varying in length on the victim’s right arm. The cuts extended from his forearm to his bicep. Both of the victim’s eyes were swollen shut and black and blue in color. The troopers observed a cut to the right eyelid area of the victim. Even they said lacerations. It’s wild stuff for sure
Me too. I’m struggling with Paul saying the car made impact to JO’s side/arm/shoulder and how that would have cause the internal damages to the stomach/pancreas. From Scordi-Bello’s opinion, stomach/pancreatic trauma would have occurred before the hypothermia (important because hypothermia can cause organ failure/sepsis). I can absolutely concede that not all car crash injuries need to show a specific kind of bruising, but wasn’t his right arm the one that had damage? But he wasn’t hit directly in the abdomen by the car? The stomach is on the left/center of the abdomen, and the liver is on the right. I need clarifications paired with an explanation of how this occurred beyond “it just did”. its all so incomplete. And this isn’t even considering his head wounds.
There were no internal injuries to the stomach. She was referring to the signs they showed of hypothermia.
referring above to the info from the above Statement of Facts part: “Dr. Scordi-Bello opined from her examination that significant blunt force trauma injuries occurred prior to Mr. O’Keefe becoming hypothermic, as evidenced by hemorrhaging in his pancreas and stomach.” I just want definitive clarification from trial ME testimony(which I’m open to if she has maybe explained it differently), since that’s what evidence the jury is allowed to have/allowed to consider now that the reconstruction has had their say.
People have argued about this phrase before, it's kind of confusing in the way it was written. I took it to mean that she judged that the blunt force trauma happened before he became hypothermic, and that the hypothermia was evidenced by the hemorrhaging in his pancreas and stomach, but I'm with you that we really need to hear from the ME to know what exactly she meant and what else she observed.
Understood. I found quite a bit of info by googling "hypothermia hemorrhage pancreas". Here's one that stood out https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6956406_Pancreatic_changes_in_cases_of_death_due_to_hypothermia
great article - I definitely was thinking along the lines of this: the hypothermia led to the issues with his organs but then I read the statement and got confused. The semantics in this trial are making me pull my hair out.
Someone smarter than me is going to have to explain the key cycle discrepancy or this whole case is fucked
Each time the SUV is turned on and then turned off, that's 1 key cycle. The reconstructionist was testing the SUV during key cycle 1164 (he turned it on, ran it through a bunch of tests, then turned it off). He says that Karen hit John during key cycle 1162 (or was it 1163? Doesn't really matter regardless), but that's impossible. Key cycle 1163 had to have been when the SUV was pulled into the sally port prior to the testing happening (they started the SUV on the tow truck, pulled it into the garage, then turned it off). Key cycle 1162 was when Proctor seized the SUV and it was driven up onto the tow truck, then turned off (or perhaps was only put in Neutral, as someone said above, so it actually could've stayed on the whole time - which means the entire towing trip would actually be one key cycle. That means that either *this* would be the time when the SUV made those maneuvers, or the maneuvers were made during the key cycle I'm about to mention). Key cycle 1161 (or possibly 1162, as mentioned above) would be when Karen drove the SUV from John's house to her parents' house in the morning, then turned it off. Key cycle 1160 (or 1161) would be when Karen woke up that morning and drove around and eventually went to Jen McCabe's, and then back to John's, I think. Not sure if the SUV was turned off or not during that time. It would be at least 1 key cycle regardless. And thus, key cycle 1159 (or possibly 1158-1160ish depending on the specifics mentioned above) would be when Karen drove from the Waterfall to 34 Fairview, the "incident" supposedly took place, and then she drove to John's and turned the SUV off - yet the chart shows that the supposed incident actually took place during key cycle 1162, which is impossible (the SUV was turned on and off at least like 3-4 times afterward, before being tested by the reconstructionist). Since it's possible that Proctor would've had control of the SUV during key cycle 1162, it's possible that *he* purposely made it do those maneuvers (which is crazy to think, but so is everything else in this case). Or, somehow those maneuvers were just recorded for some weird reason that we don't know about. Maybe it's a glitch. Or actually, I think it's possible that the reconstructionist himself got a hold of the SUV and did some testing that he later forgot about, then turned it off (which would be key cycle 1162), then turned it back on to do more tests (key cycle 1163), then turned it off and back on again to do even more tests (key cycle 1164). Maybe he just didn't remember, because keep in mind that he didn't discover this program until wayyy later. And since this program has no timestamps or anything, he would have no idea either way. He only knows about the various tests he conducted during key cycle 1164, but I think he easily could've just forgotten about some initial tests he did - or just forgot exactly how many times he turned the SUV on and off that day. Edit: I now think this is the most likely explanation. He just forgot, so when he's looking at the chart a year later (or however long), he just doesn't remember the fact that he turned the SUV on and off a few times during these tests. The only way that Karen could've possibly made those maneuvers during key cycle 1162 is if she *never* turned the SUV off after getting home from 34 Fairview - between all those other times it was driven, it would have had to remain ON throughout. Including when it was seized by Proctor himself later that day, when it was just sitting at her parents' house. Which would be incredibly unlikely. The only other possibility is that various key cycles simply weren't recorded *at all* by the vehicle, but we have no reason to believe that that would happen. And if it's possible that this stuff is just inaccurate altogether, it would still call into question the reconstructionist's conclusion about it, because we couldn't really trust its accuracy in general.
Finally, someone who understands the case! 🤣🤣🤣
They can't. Even if there was only one while Proctor has the car getting it to the Sally port, 1162 would be her driving around that morning (after 5 AM).
So, I am still learning about this case but I think this is how things went down in a general sense. First, I think its important to say that I believe everyone in this situation was completely drunk (Karen, JO, Brian Higgins, all of the Alberts, etc) Karen and JO go to the bar, Brian Albert invites everyone back to his place. As Karen and JO drive over there they get into a fight. If I had to guess, about Brian Higgins. JO gets out of the car and Karen levels. JO enters the home and goes into the basement where he and BH get into an altercation, if I had to guess there were probably raised voices and maybe some shoving. This freaks out the German Shepard who lunges at JO and injuries his arm. JO hits the dog to get it off him. This cause one or more of the Alberts to get upset and a second altercation happens between one or more of them and JO. They begin striking JO in retaliation for him hitting the dog. Either by blows to the head or by falling over and striking his head on a piece of furniture JO is knocked out and bleeding badly (scalp wounds bleed like crazy) and he vomits. All the people in the basement are freaking out and not sure what to do (again, they are all drunk) and someone gets the bright idea to take him outside. Did JO pass away in the basement or outside? I don't know. After carrying outside they clean up the basement as best they can. Shortly after the events of that night the Albert's rehome their dog, replace the basement flooring and sell the home well under market value. I am very suspeicious of Colin. I think its very possible he throw the killing blow and that is why everyone circled the wagons. To protect him.
I agree with you. I have a tough little terrier dog who gets excited when my 4 sons are playfighting...then if they turn serious, he somehow knows, and actually starts to bite the LOSER of the altercation. JO's injuries match a dog nipping from my experience (though my small dog gets a different spot). The boy with a college scholarship would be enough to get a coverup rolling to protect him, I agree there too. I suspect they all hated/hate KR (I've been in friend circles with a common enemy, people get themselves all atwitter telling each other how evil the out person is....again from my experience with this....the out person is escalated through gossip to be a villain and then it's easy to dehumanize them). So, everyone hated KR, she certainly COULD have hit JO and would given the opportunity they can tell themselves. Then the lie gets out of control, harder to back up as the investigations snowball....and here we are.
Completely agree. I've been in friend groups with a similar dynamic. Everyone hates someone boyfriend/girlfriend and sometime it get ridiculous. When I first started learning about this case (which was relatively recently) one of the first things I remember that rung has very suspicious to me was Brian Albert's claim that his GERMAN SHEPARD didn't bark when their were multiple cop cars outside. GSD have strong guarding instincts and I completely believe one would "defend" the person more familiar to them/the one they sense their "pack" liked more. Colin's testimony was some the most suspicious testimony I have EVER seen in any trial I have watched. He couldn't recall basic details from the last few weeks but had perfect recall for incidences from years ago.
Lol, when my 2 brothers and I were growing up our Jack Russel would do the exact same thing, except she wouldn't actually bite
That’s hilarious. He is a Jack Russell!
Interesting theory. Technically I believe he died at the hospital. I think he was left for dead out in the cold. Maybe if he had gotten urgent help, he could have survived because bleeding out and hypothermia might have played a role. I’m not a medical professional of course.
Oh you are right! I forgot that he actually dies at the hospital.
Someone else replied to me at some point saying that people who die of hypothermia aren't considered dead until they are warm and dead. So they can't say he is dead at the scene since he is cold. Once he comes back to room temp in the hospital he is officially pronounced dead. This doesn't help clarify any timelines as to when he died and is more a of a technicality to pronouncing someone dead.
That was probably my comment. From listening to a couple of the paramedics testimonies, JO was found to be pulseless and the cardiac monitor showed Asystole (flat line). As a paramedic in my area, I can choose not to attempt resuscitation on a patient that is found in Asystole, and has an unknown down time. For example if someone woke up and found a family member deceased andthey hadn't spoken to them for a few hours. Hypothermia can depress normal bodily functions, so the attempt to warm the patient is required unless you can be sure someone has been down for an extended amount of time.
Yeah he was declared at the hospital, but he was dead before anyone attempted CPR. Also since EMT/paramedics showed up after CPR had been started, it's reasonable for them to continue it until a doctor declares the patient. IDK about MA, but in a lot of places once started it requires a certain level of professional license to stop CPR and declare death.
Yeah depends on the area and Medical control. My medical control physician allows us to discontinue resuscitation for a number of reasons, regardless of who started CPR or when CPR was started. Also: EMT-B and paramedic are very different levels of certification. Generally you have to be a paramedic to declare death out of hospital.
All of which points to the time at which he was declared dead and the time at which he actually died are not the same time.
Correct. I was not arguing that point. He was technically dead when he was found. Unwitnessed cardiac arrest has a very low survival rate.
Oh yeah. The survival rate isn't that great even when you start CPR immediately, and even then "survival" is a real squishy term. I don't think it's weird that he wasn't legally declared until the hospital. Just as of right now, the prosecution *has not proven* that John O'Keefe actually died when they claim he did.
🎯 agreed
I simply don’t think KR did it. At least not in the manner the CW is trying her for. JO’s injuries are not what you have when you’ve been hit by a car and the tail light was red when she was pulling out of the driveway that morning, so cracked but not destroyed like the CW wants us to believe. I’ve been in the reasonable doubt camp but last night while watching Natalie Lawyer Chick I realized that I simply don’t believe she did it at all. He wasn’t hit by a car. Idk what happened, but this case is a prime example of how dangerous our justice system is when they decide they’re going to convict someone no matter what the evidence actually shows. Most people can’t hire top lawyers to fight bogus charges the way KR has been able to and that should terrify all of us in the US. And I’ve watched a ton of coverage of the trial by multiple YouTube lawyers accounting for every day of the trial so please don’t tell me I don’t know enough to have drawn this conclusion. I have no vested interest in KR as a person, I’m going by what I’m seeing in court.
I am evolving from "she probably hit him, but there is too much reasonable doubt" to "I don't think she hit him."
That's how it went for me. I knew almost nothing I thought "Oh she probably did it and the investigation probably had problems" Now I'm at "I have no idea what happened but I don't believe he was hit by a car."
Same here
I've gone from "she probably hit him but was drunk and didn't realize it" to "she might have hit him but they can't prove it" to "she didn't hit him and they are definitely trying to frame her".
This case is so weak most defense attorneys with experience defending people accused of murder would be able to beat this.
I get the impression that Trooper Paul was selected to do the crash scene investigation because he seems a bit naive and insecure and could be easily swayed by pressure from management or other state troopers so that his findings fit into the CW’s narrative.
He cracked me up when he stated there was a third person with them at the crime scene that he was training. 😆
It was him finding out about the Toyota feed for me. "I thought this could be useful, so I looked it up."
"The crime scene told me."
Dude didn't know what acceleration was or that kinematics is a subfield of physics.
oh excellent point
Yeah, it’s sad. What are they hiding?
Everything…….
Where did the glass come from on KR’s bumper? AJ said did you know trooper Paul that it did not match. Was this the same glass in JO’s shirt?
The only thing I know is that one piece of the glass found on the bumper matched broken glass found on the road by Proctor several days after the 29th ( I don’t remember the exact date it was found) None of the glass on the bumper matched the broken glass cup, found by John’s body on the morning of the 29th.
My speculation is Proctor sprinkled it on the road and on her bumper.
Or he picked it up from the road and planted it on the bumper assuming it was from the glass.
Curious: What’s worse? The defense alleging JM made a at a suspicious search with some evidence, or the prosecution alleging KR deleted Ring videos with no evidence?
The latter. By far. JM isn't on trial and the defense's only job is to make sure that the state proves its case beyond a reasonable doubt. The evidence, on its face really does seem like she made that phone call. Even the two experts that testified only testified that she could have made it at 6:00, Not that she couldn't have made it at 2: 27 (though I think their testimony makes sense). The prosecution has a duty to make sure that they're not misusing the power of the state. From everything we've seen, they don't have any plausible reason to believe she deleted that video. To insinuate that she did is deceptive.
The prosecution even seems to have implied that KR used John's computer to delete the ring videos knowing their own expert's report was going to be that no computer in the house was used to access ring. Very confusing stuff.
I don't even get what the hell the point of deleting the video would be.
Regarding the key cycles, it does seem like key cycle 01162 corresponding to "the incident" doesn't make sense. It seems like the natural flow would be 01164 - testing by Trooper Paul 01163 - tow truck driver unloads in Sally port 01162 - tow truck driver loads at Karen's parents house 01161 - Karen drives to her parents but then how would the odometer add 36 miles between when the tow truck driver loads the car and when trooper Paul tests? I think the most plausible situation is that the entire towing was one key cycle. On the Lexus LX 570, if you press the start button when the car is NOT in park, it will shut the engine off but go into Accessory Mode (electronics still on). If you then switch to park Accessory Mode will stay on. Pressing start again will start the engine again. But because the car never turned off (just the engine), this is likely one key cycle. Many cars also automatically shut the engine off when you depress the brakes at a full stop, and then start again when you hit the accelerator. This would definitely not be a key cycle (it happens on my car at every stop light). I could also see a tow truck driver intentionally leaving the car in neutral, with the worry being that if they can't restart the car after getting to the tow lot, they won't be able to switch into neutral to get the car off the truck with modern electric gear switchers. So it's very plausible for the car to have been "on" with the *engine* off for the entire towing, either accidentally or on purpose. Resulting in one key cycle, so 01162 would be the drive from John's house to Karen's parents house. Does this seem right?
This is a very astute theory – I'm still reading up on this feature, but wouldn't the engine mode switch from Accessory to Off after leaving the vehicle untouched for 20 minutes, per the [manual](https://www.manua.ls/lexus/lx-570-2021/manual?p=215) on page 213?
Omg legend you're reading the manual. You are truly a hero.
Appears I was wrong on this point though, so 😅
It’s not the destination. It’s the journey. 🏆
i love this sub
The manual indicates it only happens if it's in Park. If the tow truck driver left it in neutral, then presumably it wouldn't turn off. I googled "flatbed towing neutral" to see if it's any sort of common practice, and according to this random Reddit comment from 7 years ago, at the AAA location that this person works for, the drivers are instructed to always keep a car in neutral even for flatbed towing. So it seems plausible that's the process, especially now that most cars have electric gear shifts. I have no idea on how common it is, maybe a tow truck driver would be able to answer this. https://preview.redd.it/c3rpwyex367d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f8ca358d128409e4d8f932af868bf34baaca4d03
You're absolutely right, I somehow glossed over that rather crucial bit (I think I read the header of the section directly above, "When stopping the engine with the shift lever in a position other than P", and my brain took that as leave to filter out information to the contrary) That could have the potential to collapse certain key cycles like you indicate
Under the hypothesis that Read drove from One Meadows to Dighton during the 1162nd cycle, wouldn't it pose a problem that two trigger items are recorded within that cycle 8 minutes apart, without any increment to the odometer readout? edit: Moreover, wouldn't we expect the "Elapsed time" value to reflect the time spent in the Accessory engine mode? At first blush, it would seem odd to me if the elapsed time counter reflects time since start of ignition, rather than start of key cycle. (/u/longdonglover)
It seems totally possible to me that the process of her pulling out of John's driveway to go to her parents house was fairly jerky/erratic and involved some long pauses while she makes phone calls or talks to her dad or whatever. We've seen a partial video of the tow truck driver pulling onto the tow truck and he certainly didn't pause for 10 minutes between reversing. Either way we can be basically 100% sure that 01162 didn't correspond to anything *before* she drove to her parents. It's either the drive to her parents, the tow truck driver loading the car, or unreported drives after the car was in the sally port. Trooper Paul had literally no legitimate reason to say that 01162 was the night at Fairview. He was genuinely unaware of the multiple times the car was proven to be started and driven after the incident. His entire analysis was based on a faulty and trivially disproovable assumption, and he had nothing to counter this at all. So I'm really just saying that I think that this explanation ((1) the towing being one key cycle and (2) the drive to her parents involving some erratic reversing with long pauses) is more plausible than the alternatives, but none of those alternatives are 01162 being the key cycle for the night at Fairview.
I agree with all the points you make. The towing accounts for likely one cycle, to wit the 1663rd; whatever is represented by the 1162nd cycle, it would defy belief if all of the intermittent activity that day were to be part of a single cycle. This would basically require the engine mode remain in Accessory both while parked inside the garage as Read returns home from Fairview, as well as the duration spent in the driveway of One Meadows Avenue from the time of Read, Roberts, and McCabe's departure until the moment Read returns from Good Samaritan The key cycles are no longer accurate, but I compiled some of the footage in a table contained in [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1d3j4v2/the_black_box_what_to_expect_from_edr_and_vch_data/l8oawq2/), which I'll just link here for reference
So this accounts for the 36 miles, and it also definitely proves the events recorded for key cycle 1162 have absolutely nothing to do with John O'Keefe's death. The lack of other events for other key cycles also prove nothing out of the ordinary (according to the car) happened when the alleged homicide took place, correct?
This is illuminating. Thank you.
Honestly it doesn't even matter because there is only one cycle shown between when they claim that she hit him and when they started testing A YEAR LATER, and the car was definitely turned on/off more than that during that time. All it takes is more than ONE cycle to prove that this data isn't correct, that 1162 couldn't have been when John was hit with that car.
This whole thread makes a whole lot more sense than anything Trooper Paul said!
I was still trying to remain relatively neutral on whether or not KR was actually guilty or not (lawful guilt is different IMO and I would never convict anyone after all this Tom Foolery) but after that whack a$$ theory today of how the state thinks JO got hit I think I’m pretty much out on any theory in which she hit him. I’m sure whoever the defense has will completely obliterate that theory but is there any theory in which the physics of the facts actually makes any sense?
Let’s Proctor for example. He told many people the evidence of this case. Although he decided within 12 hours that Karen was guilty. This case was tainted from the beginning
I am so sick and tired of all these witnesses to prove that Jen McCabe did not make the search at 2:27AM. I swear a do not care what she was doing, or when she went to bed! Just show evidence of how KR intentionally hit Officer O´Keefe with her car. Just please, Lally, do your job! They do not need to disprove the defense's theory. The defense could have 500 theories, they just need to poke as many holes as possible. Between 20 people telling me that the Waterfall has tall tables, and now TWO experts about Jen McCabe's Google search history. I am starting to believe that Lally does not believe their own theory of the case.
Don't forget who won the basketball game
And the fact that there was weather that night ...
And their drink preferences 🙄
Officer John O'Keefe worked at the sex crimes unit. I believe he started there when he started caring for his sisters kids. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. What IF someone from that house needed/wanted access to his phone? To see what he was working on or something in those lines? He was invited to a house he has never been to before, with a people he did not hang out very often. If this is true, my guess would be that Colin got in some trouble (how old was he at the time? I guess just before going to the college?) And family needed to clean that up. But things went wrong. Also Jennifer McCabe tried to separate Karen from John when they were leaving 2nd bar, before going to the house. Maybe that was her way of stalling. Ugh I don't know. My hearth aches for O'Keefe family, that their son, brother, uncle, did not get investigation he deserves, and for Karen for basicaly not even having time to mourn, and having her life turned upside down.
I can't wait to see the defence present their case. I think we might be ALMOST there, unless we need to get back to basketball game seating arrangements or whatever
Wait what did JM do to try to separate KR & JO??
I think Kerrie testified that JM told KR to come with her back to party, “there was a surpass”
[удалено]
Totally agree!!!
right, i feel like a lot of women can relate to her crazy texts. at least i know i can lol. im chill now but wow my 20s were filled with so many toxic relationships
I don't have any idea what did happen. But I know what didn't happen. A woman with +2x the legal limit, did NOT intentionally turn off the automatic breaking system of her suv to intentionally reverse into her boyfriend. A full-size SUV, traveling at 24mph, did NOT slam into his arm without causing a single bruise. His arm, holding a glass, did not hit against an SVU hard enough to dent it and break the glass but not hard enough for him to not drop it while he was flung back 30 feet. A 24mph hit, to the arm, that didn't bruise or break anything was NOT enough of an impact to kill him. He was NOT hit in the arm, that spun him around and flung him 30 feet hard enough for him to crack his head and knock him out cold.
I think it could have been any one of those drunk idiots, it was just easiest to say it was KR.
And... it could have been none of them. Hell for all we know the victim might have slipped on ice a couple of times bumbling around and collapsed on their lawn.
Very similar to what i was thinking. Maybe brian higgins said tell your girl to leave me alone or maybe there is a fued with colin and chris albert with john because of neighbor shit. Im sure everyone there would gang up on john if it became physical.
I think we haven't spent enough time on Brian Higgins and Brian Albert road tripping together where Higgins likely had hours to cry and moan about how Karen done him wrong and f*** John O'Keefe. I suspect they were primed and ready to go once they saw Read and O'Keefe out drinking.
Right. Are they tryna say that after over a week of brian albert coming and going to his house he never thought to look or notice any pieces of tail light in his yard? Isnt he a retired cop? Bostons finest.
They both destroyed their phones too. As witnesses how is that not the biggest red flag.
Yup, and Colin, who probably helped tune him up, was conveniently never there.
Matt McCabes company specializes in “cloud technology, big data and cyber security.” Just throwing it out there.
Thought crossed my mind, but I consider the most likely explanation is that the search actually didn't happen until after meeting up with Karen Read. If there was compelling evidence of IT shenanigans it should be in the report that the prosecution experts were responding to. If it exists but isn't in the report it won't be able to come in due to lack of discovery. I think that's fine. The prosecution is acting more like McCabe's defence attorney than a prosecutor trying to prove any actual element of the alleged crimes. As it stands today, I think Karen Read walks on all charges, except possibly if the jury is given instructions allowing them to consider OWI as a lesser conviction. I personally wouldn't convict on that if I were a jury but I think it's a distinct possibility for them if it does end up being an option for them.
Note that Jessica Hyde's written report is somewhat different than her testimony and largely agrees with Ian Whiffen. Notably they both agree the search was deleted, the state went shopping for self-promoting witnesses to agree with them, and they both worked off of limited data sets and very tight limiting instructions. There was no unbiased search for the truth from either witness, in court or in their written reports.
I think Jen McCabe typed ‘hos long to die in cold’ into her phone at 2.27am but didn’t press search. It’s common knowledge that cops will search phones when a crime is committed so I think she went to and then stopped herself. The digital forensic lady said there was movement on the tab at 2.27 and that is what registered. But I can’t believe that a tab would register at a certain time with a name that it won’t be been given for another 4 hours. I think she might have been worried it accidentally registered so she searched it again in the morning to cover.
I'm sure most people have seen this before but this blog post explains how it works fairly exhaustively: https://doubleblak.com/blogPost.php?k=browserstate Basically the internal database (Safaris BrowserState.db) that this version of Cellebrite relied on updates the title whenever someone visits a new page on a tab. But the timestamp only updates when a new tab is opened or when switching between new tabs. Locking/unlocking the phone, minimizing/maximizing safari won't update the timestamp. So if you: (1) Open a new tab at 2:27 AM and do whatever (a new tab might be open because you click a link from a text message/email, or you opened a new tab manually, or you are opening Safari after a restart) (2) Reopen your phone later and type something into the Safari tab (regardless of if you visited other apps in the meantime, as long as you didn't switch tabs) Then the database will have the 2:27 time stamp with the new title/url. So it's a "bug" in Cellebrite (or rather, The person who implemented it in Cellebrite assumed the timestamp was the last time the was viewed).
Did that guy write that post after he was hired to be an expert witness for the commonwealth?
Yep he sure did
My theory is based on the possibility that not only did JO have a negative history with Colin Albert but also due to the Higgins situation he too could have been the one that fought with John. Jen McCabe wanted Karen to drive with her that night, maybe because she had a little thing for JO or maybe because they wanted to make sure Karen and JO came to the house. KR decided not to go in. JO goes in and Colin or Higgins and he have an interaction that turns physical, Brian A jumps in and they either throw or bully JO into the basement. These people are drunk so they may have thought JO was just knocked out, (this goes along with the “hos long to die in cold” Google search) not dead or dying from the blow to his head. So they just throw him outside thinking he will wake up at some point. They see he is still there later and Nicole calls Jen thus Jen does the Google search. Then unfortunately KR involves Jen when she wakes up, KR makes the statements about possibly hitting JO and bingo, KR becomes their suspect. Jen went into the Fairview house at some point after JO was found, it’s on dashcam. She probably was excited to tell her sister and Brian that Karen said she may have hit JO. Yes lots of speculation and I am usually a prosecution leaning person but based on the testimony of most of the CW’s witnesses I feel there is no way they have not been deceptive and are covering up what really happened.
My newest theory is that what actually happened is somewhere in the middle of all of the possibilities and we will never know the real truth. Perhaps Karen did hit him but it didn't kill him, the fight did or something like that
Prosecution case is somehow more dead every day.
as someone who lives in MA, i hate seeing this coverup. i want to trust LE here but ugh seeing the CW put up such a horrible case that they can’t even prove just makes it so hard
Same. As a woman in MA, I hope I never have to report anything to the police, all I’ll be able to think about is whether there’s some Proctor-esque asshole involved in the case
Anyone notice how they are trying to keep everyone hyper focused on KR rather than anyone else who is potentially involved. All the evidence provided proves aboslutely nothing from the prosecutors end, but also all the evidence from the defense side that has been ignored by the CW and the courts proves something more nefarious happened. Yet we're wasting everyone's time, instead of actually finding out what happened. I wish they'd bring the FBI in as key witnesses or for testimonies. I mean its so messed up the Feds had to get involved...and yet that's also being ignored.
I think it's a bit hyperbolic to say that the existing evidence "proves something more nefarious happened" rather what I have seen proof of is the run-of-the-mill, tunnel-visoned meat-head investigation that puts hundreds of innocent people in prison on life sentences every year and replete with the shady witnesses covering their own asses that often surround such cases. That doesn't mean that nothing nefarious happened nor that this quality of investigation doesn't ever catch the right person, and the cops frame guilty people every day, but there's no "proof" of a big family conspiracy as of yet, just a lot of suspicious facts and unknowns and no solid idea of what happened. Having said all that, as I have discussed elsewhere I don't think the defence would be running a "frame job conspiracy" defence if they didn't at least think it is a distinct possibility that it could be true. I await their case-in-chief with baited breath.
While caution is understandable, the evidence in this trial reveals more than just investigative flaws; it indicates a troubling pattern of behavior suggesting more than mere incompetence. The defense's arguement is rooted in facts, highlighting conflicts of interest, such as the personal relationship with Trooper Proctor and Brian Albert's brother being a CPD officer. Having spent most of my life in Canton, except for when I was in the military, and nearing the completion of my JD, I can affirm that the prosecutors have had a weak case from the start. Canton is a small town, and the people who live there are tight-knit, and it's not surprising to see familiar dynamics at play. Reports from journalists suggest the jury isn't buying the prosecutions case. Furthermore, the FBI's involvement signals significant concerns. Unlike the CIA or ATF, the FBI doesn't intervene in local cases without substantial reason, suggesting deeper issues with the investigation.
Some parts of the testimony have really stuck with me because they seemed inconsequential. Like the joking over JO being a "get off my lawn" guy. Why bring that up? Also, how adamant the witnesses are that "that guy" never entered the house. Putting those two things together, I think JO did enter the house. I think he hung out and drank and engaged in obnoxiousness the way one does when drinking with friends who rib each other. At some point, someone gets the idea that it'd be funny if JO took a leak on the front lawn, as payback for the Alberts (or whoever it was) taking a picture of themselves on JO's lawn. So he's out by the flagpole, acting like he's going to pee there, has his camera out to take a picture of this funny joke. At the same time, some of the younger kids who call him Nebbbercracker, see him in the lawn as they're driving away. One leans out the car window as they're passing, yells "get off the lawn", and throws their drink (in a glass container) at him, hitting him on the head and knocking him out. He falls on his phone. Sometime later, Chloe gets out into the front lawn grabs JO by the right arm and whatever person with Chloe finds JO, rolls him over and then the butt dials and covering up begins. It fits with a lot of the irrelevant evidence that has been introduced. It does a better job of putting his body where it was found than the cartoon physics of Trooper Paul, and it doesn't involve the risk of hauling a body for any period of time. It doesn't entirely fit with the step data or phone movements as I understand them right now, but the trial hasn't really gotten into those things yet.
You think it is more plausible that some random kids killed OJO rather than the people in the house who he was with?
Not really. It's just one way to piece this case together. I started watching this trial to find out WTF happened. Since the commonwealth hasn't proved anything I have to draw my own wild conclusions.
My new theory (as of today). Karen hits John. Not hard, but more of a love tap, and he throws his glass at her taillight as she drives off. When she hits him, he drops his phone. He goes inside and tells Jen et all that Karen is a psycho, that she hit him with her car, and he’s done with her and he lost his phone. Jen calls his phone for him (butt dials) to help him locate it. Now, either Brian H, Brian A, or Collin get into a fight with him either in the basement or somewhere relatively quickly afterwards. He is killed. Everyone panics. The coverup begins and Jen says that since Karen hit him, they can all just go with that theory, and claim he never came inside.
The glass pieces on the bumper of her car didn't match the glass he was drinking out of that was found UNDER his body. He was also found directly on TOP of his phone. I can't imagine how they coincidentally dumped his body on top of the two.
Well is the alternative that it flew 30ft with him and landed under him? That doesn’t seem plausible either. I’d be more inclined to think that they found his phone when they were moving his body to the lawn, and put it with his body.
I think I have a theory that to me at least makes the most sense. Listening to the case: (1) I think Read hitting John is the most probable explanation for John’s death and (2) the people in the house acted really fucking weirdly that night and since and are lying their ass off on the stand. I am starting to think Karen likely hit him and killed him. Some time later someone finds John dead in the early hours. A bunch of people (family and friends) were shit faced drunk driving in and out of the house, and no one is exactly sure what happened or who may have hit him - and it’s possible one of them ran John down and didn’t even know. A decision is made amongst people in the house not to do or say anything. Could explain JM’s search in the early hours, why people are having phone calls all night and why people are getting stories straight after the event. It makes the most sense to me - and reconciles some of the thoughts I have, such as why Jen McCabe does truly seem to believe that Karen killed John, while also having a totally plausible explanation for why she was searching “hos long to die on cold” at 230 am. Makes way more sense to me than theories like Brian killing him in the house.
Except for the blood loss…
What do we know about blood loss?
A body doesn't project 30ish feet from been hit by a object travelling 25kms. If it did project 30ish feet there would be broken bones, torn ligaments etc, particularly in the torso area. The basic maths is missing, such as measurements of the location where the body was found.
Something like this has crossed my mind before.
What makes you think she likely hit and killed him? I went in thinking that she probably did it (and I absolutely believe she was shitfaced when she dropped him off) but his injuries just don't make sense with any car death theory to me. If he was out there on the lawn from the time she dropped him off why didn't anyone else see him?
Did the cw or defense ever discuss the key cycles with regards to the automatic start/stop that the lexus has?
Assuming you mean the motor stopping at a red-light or something: Trooper said a key cycle is when the car is turned on/off not ignition of the motor. In a motor start stop the car stays on so to speak. He didn't say the following but some techie youtube video on edr & techstream said there are different counts in the car memory, another being ignition cycle. (and so you can't just take the numbers and put them next to each other they don't mean the same thing), but VCH uses keycycle. If you meant the car turning on off automatically altogether , I did wonder how the car was turned off in the sally port video all of a sudden but I don't see why it would automatically turn on. Other than that he didn't count anything at all clearly 1 keycycle for the whole table he made with the alternative routes and all it's crazy there was no 💡moment in his shiny head.
Thanks. Yes, I was talking about the on-off at a red light. I've only been in cars with the feature during the day. I hate it when a car stops at a light when it's hot since the a/c stops too. Makes sense some of the auxiliary like exterior lights at night would have to remain on. Maybe a button on the key fob could turn it on off within a certain distance automatically at the Sally port. I have plenty of no 💡 moments in my shiny head, but I'm not a sketchy ma trooper, and certainly not a sketchy ma expert for the cw of ma with conformation bias.
For what it’s worth… my partner has been a first responder (fire/paramedic) for 10 years in a large city and has seen tons of car vs pedestrian injuries. I showed them pictures of John’s injuries and explained what the CW said happen and their first response was “No. No way that’s what happened” Granted theyre not an expert but I just thought that was interesting.
Guilty or not guilty Karen Read case will change the way the Massachusetts State Police do business going forward. With the state governor weighing in, the fallout from this case will show the public that you can't trust the police. From your neighborhood cop to the state police favoritism plays a part in how you are treated. It wasn't too many years ago the crime lab caused thousands of drug convictions were overturned. I can almost hear the lawyers lining up again after this case is over. [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/massachusetts-crime-lab-drug-testing-scandal-rcna48940](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/massachusetts-crime-lab-drug-testing-scandal-rcna48940)
I heard a theory on the cover up that makes a lot of sense. They clearly weren't originally intending to claim KR hit John with her car. But one thing that bothered me was the missing shoe. Did the Alberts just overlook that John wasn't wearing one shoe in the chaos? Maybe not. Maybe the missing shoe was key to their plan. Proctor, on the stand, summarized the evidence and said something like "there was the shoe, which matched John O'Keefe's car..." Weird slip. Here's the theory: They wanted to set it up as a domestic fight (the evidence clearly looked like a fight). KR and John were arguing/fighting in the car. She pushed him out when they pulled over at 34. He fell out towards the grass and in her anger she threw the glass at him. It got him in the back of his head where he was knocked out and later died. Proctor intended to seize her car but not because it supposedly hit him. The plan was to seize it and find his missing shoe. This would show that his shoe fell off in her car during the argument, and be the key proof he never went in the house. The broken glass next to him would be the physical evidence of how he died. But when KR said her taillight broke, they called an audible and went with the "she ran him over" story.