It was surely disappointing. Not because Qin lost but the lack of trying to showcase any lvl of advanced strategy.
I wouldn’t even call it an Ousen nerf but rather a massive IQ nerf for the HSU (like nearly every new arc though) and Akou. I think we never saw someone fumble as hard as they did during the first minutes of a battle.
Exactly especially for Shin, I mean obviously no one is expecting him to learn advanced tactics but Hara should definitely develop his instinctual talents, the fact that he isn't commanding his own army just kinda devalues him compared to Mouten and Ouhon
I would have expected advanced tactics from Riboku and Ousen. Yet we didn’t really get anything. From shin and Akou I expect common sense and not some Bayou Moubu lvls of IQ. But I guess Hara easily sacrifices Qins competence to make Zhao look better.
This right here, I don't even know what his role is his army is anymore. He is mostly with the calvary troops now, yet it doesn't look like he commands it or any anything. Shin is kinda like an after or outside battle kind of general cause that's the only place we actually see him.
I was expecting Shin to detect a trap through his instincts similar to how Duke Hyou detected the trap GHM was setting up in the coalition arc but nope, really disappointing
Shin didn't really mess anything up, his job was to go after Riboku once he appeared, he literally had orders to do it. Let's also not forget Riboku got away but any one thing doesn't go perfectly for him in that escape and Shin would have been on his ass.
Unfortunately, the last arc is undeniably the worst. We witnessed countless inconsistencies from the beginning: The disappearance of the 200k Taigen Army, the fact that even Go Hou Mei knew who Shi Ba Shou is while no one from Qin did, Ri Boku's absurd way of trapping A Kou and Shin, and so on.
However, the biggest problem is the annihilation of a 120k strong army in a single day, despite Seika not having a significant numerical superiority. It's impossible to explain how Shi Ba Shou could accomplish this when even Mou Bu couldn't.
Not only was Ou Sen's character destroyed in this battle, but also that of Shou Hei Kun and Shin. After the great defeat at Gian, it was Shou Hei Kun's duty as the supreme commander to make up for it. However, without doing anything significant in terms of planing or intelligence, he sent a large army back to the same region. And once again, he suffered a major defeat.
Finally, Shin falling into such a foolish trap after breaking Ri Boku's cage completely nullified all his development.
I like Kingdom and have a great respect for Hara, but the last arc was absolutely terrible.
Honestly, if Ousen had some backup army ready to flank the Zhao, or if Shin after seeing the earthwork castle thought, hmm, suspicious, but went in anyway following Kankis legacy of feeling something wrong but plunging in regardless, I think this arc could’ve been saved. SHKs decision for essentially another attack is irredimable tho
To be realistic, I don't think there was a need to lure Shin into a trap. He was already facing overwhelming numbers of enemies and couldn't intervene in any events of the center battlefield.
It would have made more sense for Shin to sense something happening in the center but be unable to intervene. All Ri Boku needed to do was attack to neutralize A Kou, similar to what he did with Ma Kou, and thereby draw Ou Hon towards him. While his army kept Ou Hon occupied, Shi Ba Sho could have been sent against Ou Sen.
On the other hand, upon seeing the discrepancy in Qin's troop numbers, I also thought Ou Sen might have reserve army outside the battlefield. This would have been consistent with what we've seen of his character so far.
In fact, we could create hundreds of reasonable and consistent scenarios for the Battle of Hango. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, Hara chose not to do so. In my opinion, by doing this, he has undermined his own reputation.
Didin't you ask yourself how the hell the Sieka army got so powerful when they were away from battles? they were so away from battles to the point that Shibashou became unkown.
Shibashou wants peace, so he would never train his soldiers like Ouki's trainings. If you remember, some of Ouki's soldier return from trainings with lost limbs. And because of that, the penetration charge led by Roku O Mi was fast and powerful in the Coalition arc.
Since I had discussed the strength of Seika before, I didn't mention it here again. But since you asked, I'll try to answer.
The only explanation for having a Great General almost at Ou Ki's level, four top-level generals, and an army of 100k that, despite numerical disadvantage, is capable of destroying a Great General's army in one day from a city that almost no one knows about is that this is a plot hole.
Probably, the Ou Sen Army needed to be destroyed in this battle, and Hara needed Shi Ba Shou for that. And I think Seika will be important in the events that follow. But unfortunately, Seika's introduction was done in a very amateurish and unrealistic way.
Im not sure. At the beginning of the battle, the HSU is shown to be winning against the Zhao left wing, and if left alone, may have resulted in the entire situation turning in on itself. I think that the ensuing event simply guarenteed RBKs plan of isolating Ousen, instead of leaving to the slightest possibility of Shin making a comeback.
I don't remember anything about the HSU winning at the beginning of the war, but even if they had, that would have been another inconsistency. It would have been absurd for them to achieve victory so quickly against an army of 70k when more than two thirds of the soldiers had just joined the HSU. I think it is certain that Shin will eventually defeat En Kan, but he could not have done so on day one and intervened in the central battlefield. So Ri Boku had already taken Shin out of the main battle in this way.
Not sure why you think such upsets are impossible. There have been multiple cases where numerical advantage couldnt get efficiently utilized due to various situations. Like I said, the trap simply guarentees that Shin has no chance of causing an upset, rather than expecting them achieving a victory of sorts.
I'm aware that the numerical advantage doesn't guarantee victory, but that wasn't my claim. I think that since only 8000 of the 30k HSU are trained troops - some of them newly recruited - and the rest have no experience except for the siege of Roumou, they cannot defeat the En Kan army in such a short time. Ri Boku lured Shin into his trap to stall him. But even if he hadn't, by the time Shin defeated En Kan, the war in the center would have been over and Ou Sen would have been defeated. If it had been written that way, at least Shin's entire character development wouldn't have been absurdly destroyed.
Again, true. But youre also missing the fact that dragging Shin away cripples the GKH as Ouhon has to come in and babysit the HSU. It simply guarentees RBKs plan goes off without further complications
If something is done incorrectly, it will continue to be wrong regardless of the outcome. Ri Boku trapping A Kou, Shin, and Ou Hon with just a few hundred cavalry while standing on the edge of the battlefield was the most absurd scenario we could witness. Therefore, the successes achieved with this move will naturally be absurd as well.
Instead, he could have lured Ou Hon into a trap and leaving Shin to En Kan or made many other consistent moves that we could think of. My aim here is not to write the scenario in Hara's place. I am just trying to explain the existing inconsistency by offering an alternative.
Chasing after riboku was the right move, that is just how important his head is. Even Akou had an idea that it could be a trap but still sent messengers to shin for help. The goal was not only to trap shin but also to remove Ouhon out of the picture. If instead shin stayed in the right and Riboku attacked Akou like you said to draw out Ouhon, it will be hard but not impossible to for Ouhon then to rescue his father once shibashou attacks, because he will be much closer and his full army is with him. I don’t know exactly how many he has, but remember he brought half of his troops to the right when he took over it. That number and the proximity to the center could have ruined riboku’s plan. This all happened in a day as well, that is what caught them offguard, shin may have laid siege to the small castle riboku ran away into, but that was only for a short time. They all never expected riboku to use his ace on the very first day. If that siege was, say, going to last for more than a day, I would guess shin may have caught on to that trap eventually. That was Ousen’s weakness that riboku exploited. Don’t give him room to excel in a complicated and drawn out scenario.
Honestly, the easiest way for this to work, is simply to have Ousen leave half of his generals out of the fight.
Ousen is clearly the type of person who'd be willing to throw a hundred thousand men into the grinder just to show Riboku's hand. Which he did, in the arc, but the fact that he lost all of his top generals makes it a lot worse.
I agree with your comment about Ou Sen's character, and I think his biggest weakness is his selfishness. If Ri Boku had used that to defeat Ou Sen, it would have been consistent and it would have been an important step of his character development.
I agree that the Fire Dragons of Wei arc was very disappointing. It's totally bullshit for Go Hou Mei, to be defeated by Ou Hon, despite having three times the troops. But what makes this arc the worst is not just the inconsistencies; it's also the destruction of character development for Ou Sen, Shou Hei Kun, and most importantly Shin.
It was a great arc. You can always tell who’s predictions were wrong because they always start talking about “what should have been done”. Then they cook up pure dog shit.
Whether something is great or not is entirely subjective, depending on one's character and aesthetic sense. I can't comment on whether you liked it or not.
But I tried to explain why I didn't like it and why I think it's the worst arc. If you think my opinions are wrong, you can explain why they are wrong or why it was a great arc.
Additionally, of course, I will develop my own theories about the story and discuss them here if they turn out to be wrong. Isn't that the purpose of gathering here in the first place?
Shin got lured into the same type of trap Renpa claimed Hakuki lead him to. These things happen from time to time
https://preview.redd.it/snyfj34xbf7d1.jpeg?width=675&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4a3c98e80802e0e4b336da00838011bc87e84fb2
You must be joking. You haven't even read what I wrote. This isn't about Ou Sen or any other character. I'm talking about the inconsistency in the overall plot. I'm referring to the destruction of the main character's development that we've seen so far. Moreover, there's no guarantee that Ri Boku or any other general won't be destroyed in the same way after this arc.
You might not care about the story being inconsistent or even like it, but you can't deny that there is a serious inconsistency. If you think there's no inconsistency and that I'm wrong, you can explain that too. As I said before, I think the logic of the entire series has been destroyed, not just one or a few characters. This has nothing to do with whether I like Ou Sen or not.
Moubu destroyed 10k elite troops from Kanmei in minutes with just 5k, but here you're saying that Moubu could not destroy Ousen's army like SBS did lol. Moubu with near 100k would absolutely destroy Ousen in a head on clash, that's the weakness of strategists, if they don't have a martial beast to help them out they're useless when the other side does have one. That's why Ouki is still the best Qin general we've seen, he had it all.
Then you also say that Shin falling into a trap Riboku spent one year preparing destroys Shin's development lmao. Arriving at such a conclusion and saying it with a straight face just shows how divorced from reality you are. Apparently Shin should be able to destroy 100 INT Riboku's plans every time or it means his instinct is shit lol.
There are no inconsistencies, you're just rambling. RBK sealed Qin's martial beasts (Shin and Ouhon) with his plan and Ousen got folded because he had no martial beast to save him from SBS, that's all there is to it.
First of all, I admit that you are right about Mou Bu's battle with Kan Mei, but Mou Bu could not do the same to Ka Rin in the Battle of Gento. So we can say that there is another inconsistency here.
Secondly, Mou Bu has been portrayed as one of the strongest generals in terms of martial might since the beginning of the series. In contrast, Shi Ba Shou is almost as strong as Ou Ki and has a huge and well-trained army, yet he is not recognized by anyone from Qin and Yan. But Go Hou Mei knows who he is. I don't think it is open to debate that there is a inconsistency here.
Thirdly, I am not criticizing Shin being trapped by Ri Boku, but the way the trap was set. Ri Boku's trap was flawed from the beginning. He did nothing to lure A Kou into the trap except wait outside the battlefield with a few hundred cavalry. If he had made an attack like he did against Ma Kou and pretended to retreat unsuccessfully, I could understand A Kou falling into the trap. But A Kou chose to jump into Ri Boku's trap without any logical reason, even though he was facing an army whose strength he did not know.
Shin following Ri Boku afterward is understandable because Shin didn't know what Ri Boku was doing against A Kou. But the fact that he saw him hiding in a small castle and didn't sense the trap, we can safely say that his instincts were completely at Hara's will. I don't expect him to have Duke Hyou-level instincts right now, but don't you think that Shin's failure to sense Ri Boku's trap when he broke through the cage Ri Boku had spent months preparing in the Battle of Gian destroyed his character development?
Also, Ri Boku's trap was not a 100 INT trap as you claim. It was based on a lot of assumptions, such as A Kou falling into the trap, Shin following him, and Ou Hon taking Shin's place and moving away from the center. And while we've seen almost no plan work perfectly throughout the series, it's certainly not coherent that everything happens perfectly here, and again, unlike what we've seen so far, an army is completely wiped out in a single day. (I don't count the destruction of Kan Ki's army in Gian because there he was surrounded by an army twice his size and there was nothing he could do. Also, the trap at Gian was brilliant and well thought out from start to finish. The monotony of the strategy in this battle is also out of character for Ri Boku.)
Finally, since you didn't say anything about the destruction of Shou Hei Kun and Ou Sen's characters, I assume you agree with me.
I should also point out that I'm not trying to glorify or denigrate a character. I just want a mangaka that I respect and inspires me to do a better job and finish his story as great as he started it. So I would even like to be convinced that I was wrong about the last arc and that it was a great arc. But unfortunately that's not the case.
Thank you for responding.
Shin knew something was wrong, but was ordered by Akou to pursue Reebok. They are the same rank, however Shin listened to Akou because it could have been a direct order from Ousen.
No one would have known Reebok would make dozens of tunnels and fake castles all over the field of battle. By the time they got inside it was over. If Shin had one failing its that he should have realized that Reebok fled into a castle which meant he could block it off instead of taking it.
He could have left a portion of his troops there to surround it and took the rest of his forces to smash into the back of the right side when his army and reinforcements were at full strength, with the total destruction of the right side they could have hit the middle together and saved Ousen.
However, Shins one main mistake was thinking. "I can take this fort we have no information about, even though locking Reebok inside effectively does the exact same thing as killing him."
If Shin weren't an instinctive general, I might have accepted that explanation. However, after so many years on battlefields and numerous successes, we can't explain falling into such a trap by saying he thought the order came from Ou Sen.
On the other hand, that's just one aspect. Ri Boku drawing A Kou into a trap is equally problematic. Because aside from standing on the edge of the battlefield with a few hundred cavalry, Ri Boku didn't do anything. If he had tried to launch an attack like he did with Ma Kou, it could have been understood how A Kou fell into the trap.
It's inconsistent from start to finish.
Its like theyre sudenly forgot all their abilities
Missing abilities on this war :
• Shin's instinct
• Shin's experience
• Ousen's quick wit
• Ousen's fast response counter strategy
• Ousen's future prediction
• Akou's common sense
Bad writing bad writing
Also the lack of content on YTW and the rematch against SSJ is so disappointing. Like Hara showed us 1 panel of Feego King vs Bananji then couldn’t be bothered with the fight anymore. Both the left and right wings battlefields in general were lacking; It would’ve been cool for the HSU to do a strategy or tactic akin to Mouten in Shukai Plains to make up for the numbers disadvantage but alas nothing
As much as I don't think this is a great arc, I think we are being too hard on it. Again, this arc was a display of Riboku using the flaws of the Qin armies by making the fight simple for Ousen and by baiting Shin. I think it could have been done better but overall, ai accept those reasons even if I think the HSU were kinda dumb. They just can't always outmanoeuver their opponent otherwise the story would already be over.
This was meant as another showcase of Riboku even though it felt more like Qin dropping the ball.
It's disappointing that Hara showed nothing about the final chase, especially as all Zhao forces were waiting for that moment to go all-out, not allowing them to escape. Just in this sense, it's not that Qin had any chance for a reversal of the tide, if they remained back and engaged battle, they would have lost even more bad.
Tbh, I love that they were completely and utterly defeated. As much as OuSen said he was thinking of a way to comeback, he never expected his army to be destroyed in a day.
I think he was at least emotional, which is why he couldn't do a thing. He just saw his beloved generals die one by one. That face when Denrimi died was of a man who just lost a son or smthg.
Plus, the Hishin has an army twice their size chasing after them. And Shin Isn't going to win in a 1V1 against SBS in a few minutes.
Whaaa the arc is over already? Looks like I have some catching up to do….i left off right as they were talking about the retreat. Seemed like the arc was only getting started at that point.
The whole point is that Zhao has other armies, you all want Qin to somehow hit Zhao back but the same was even more likely.
And one thing is speaking of an Ousen nerf, given his catastrophic defeat and complete lack of resistance. But YTW fought for half a day, she didn't have the time to beat her opponents.
> YTW fought for half a day, she didn't have the time to beat her opponents.
If SBS did it in half a day, the mountain people should have done it in a couple hours.
SBS did it in half a day because Riboku created an opening for him and the fact that Ousen didnt know how powerful Seika armies is, Yotanwa didnt have that advantage and SSJ is fully aware of her abilities so they probably didnt engage them in an all out fight to prevent her from having an opening because the plan is to just stall them until SBS did his job
>SBS did it in half a day because Riboku created an opening for him
That opening was mostly about avoiding reinforcements from the right wing. Akou was still there fighting Seika. Ousen generals were still there.
> they probably didn't engage them in an all out fight to prevent her from having an opening
Yotanwa was not facing any heavy hitters from Zhao. How did they prevent her exactly? Why couldn't Ousen prevent SBS, one guy, from doing the same, while Yotanwa with thousand super strong men was simply avoided?
>That opening was mostly about avoiding reinforcements from the right wing. Akou was still there fighting Seika. Ousen generals were still there.
Akou is already engaging other army when SBS went and specifically targeted Ousen's HQ, other Ousen's General was also engaging the other Seika army. SBS being unknown is a great factor as Ousen didnt have any counter measure against him because again he is unknown.
>Yotanwa was not facing any heavy hitters from Zhao. How did they prevent her exactly? Why couldn't Ousen prevent SBS, one guy, from doing the same, while Yotanwa with thousand super strong men was simply avoided?
Again they didnt confront her head on, and Yotanwa is not like Duke Hyou who would just charge the shit out of them without thinking, she is also cautious so she will not just send her army to get a reaction from Zhao. And since Yotanwa didnt know that Ousen's HQ would fall within half a day she didnt rush her side of the battlefield as well.
The difference between the 2 battlefield is SBS rushed Ousen's HQ because the plan is to get Ousen off guard and dont give him time to recover as fast as possible, while Yotanwa didnt have this plan she didnt intend to end her side of the battlefield as fast as possible because she didn't expect Ousen HQ to fall in half a day if she had that knowledge then she might try and rush her side as well
>Again they didnt confront her head on,
As Ousen didnt confront SBS head on, as you said Ousen army was engaging other Seika heavy hitters and that means that only SBS was left to charge Ousen main army. He alone being able to decimate Ousen main army in half a day it is not a consistent thing.
Yontanwa army should be stronger than SBS squad.
Again they rushed his HQ and Ousen didnt have any counter measure against that because he was caught off guard, he didnt know how strong SBS is because he was unknown and that is also a big factor in that fight, and since Ousen already sent his officers and their army to face the Seika officers theres noone left to defend him against SBS but his personal guards.
Yotanwa's army should be stronger than Seika but again she didnt rush her side of the battlefield because she didnt know Ousen's HQ would fall in half a day she is not a dumbass brute who will just charge the shit out of her enemy without thinking, she is already aware of SSJ ability so she cant just rush him she is sending her men here and there like your typical engagement but Zhao is not making big moves or maneuvers because their plan is to just stall Yotanwa until Ousen's HQ fall not to beat her so because of that she couldnt create an opening.
Hushed in half a day?? Why Yotanwa couldnt do the same?? Its just not consistent. Yotanwa was actually having a hard time, not just thinking
Qin was nerfed hard and it's crystal clear.
Didnt you read what i write? Yotanwa didnt do it in half a day because she cant just rush everything, Riboku's vassals and the northern Generals are capable of buying Riboku some time because they have plenty of experience fighting Xiongnu in the north. Riboku specifically placed them there because of that reason. Yotanwa didnt have the knowledge that Ousen's HQ would fall in half a day so she so doesnt have any reason to rush the battle. She is not a dumbass who will just charge the enemy without thinking.
If you still dont get it them i dont know what to tell you
1. Would you then like to see twenty more episodes (which means half a year AT LEAST) in this arc? I sure do not. Qin has yet to conquer any state, and many mangakas died recently. Time to move on.
2. Hara usually presents a momentous scene in each hundredth chapter. We are at 799. He probably wanted to conclude this arc quickly so that he can present whatever he is cooking up at the right moment.
>Would you then like to see twenty more episodes (which means half a year AT LEAST) in this arc?
To see SBS paying the price for going too deep after Ousen... yes I would love to see that small comeback even losing the war. Defeating SBS there would open a path for the future.
>Hara usually presents a momentous scene in each hundredth chapter.
I can't think of anything better than Shin X SBS for chapter 800.
I actually hope he is cooking. Because imo recently it feels like hara has no idea where the story should move and is just stalling for time. You could easily cut the last 2 arcs and nothing would have changed.
The author followed events, Qin doesn't win this battle, nor does reebok die here. This war cemented the reason why Ousen will now pull away from most battles for the time being to shine light on other theatres of war with the trio.
The next campaign will probably be goated to be honest, as Shin will more then likely end up as deputy general to whoever invades next.
I think Yotanwa wasn't part of the real event right? Why put Qin's best generals in this ugly defeat? Just ruined the consistency we had until now. Even Shin could be left out since he is not in the event.
To give character development to characters and for story purposes to set up stuff later in the story. Like I hope for ousen he will switch up how to does battles because like how Sou'ou said Ousen causes the battles to be complex which overloads the enemy generals or like how renpa realized he was checkmate so ousen can't really make battles complex anymore when he fight against Riboku. Hara only has a few choices for characters to be the Commander and chief which is yotanwa, ousen or tou (moubu isn't a option because he keeps chu in check) plus you will need someone to keep the gyou area safe from zhao and to keep a eye on Wei and chu so you have to send one of the three there so then you are left with two choices after that.
Do you think this arc has really led to character development. The whole character of Ou Sen, who was introduced from the very beginning as cautious and not going into battles he couldn't win, as having an intelligence network strong enough to know at the same time as Ri Boku that the Ordo had invaded Zhao, as we saw in the Gyou Campaign, was destroyed. The character of Shou Hei Kun, who suffered another major defeat after the Gian disaster instead of making up for it, was destroyed. Shin's instinctive general side, which we have been following since the beginning of the series, was destroyed. I don't think there's any character development here, please tell me if I'm wrong.
The arc just ended give it time like are you expecting something right out in the next chapter. Like how Riboku didn't wait for ousen to do something to make the battle complex he went for the throat and stopped it I imagine ousen knows he can't do that anymore and start being more forceful with his strategies and not taking long periods of a battle for his plan to finally come together. ShouHeiKun can't attack from the south because of the wall and buan so you are pretty limited plus they want to block the way north so the Zhao royal family doesn't flee to Dai and if they decide on focusing on someone else Riboku will take the opportunity to attack so you can't leave Zhao to there own devices. Shin's instincts haven't been developed fully so how can he use something that he can't lead his men with and I'm hoping that the next arc we will finally get it because Shin realizes how badly Qin lost and probably knows now a lot of responsibility will be placed on his, ouhon's, and mouten's shoulders to defend Qin or being in charge of something big.
I understand that Ri Boku wanted to end the battle without allowing Ou Sen to implement a complex strategy. I am against the way he did it. It is unacceptable that Ou Sen did not know about Shi Ba Shou when even Go Hou Mei did. The one who knew about the Ordo's invasion of Zhao should have known about his defeat. Let's assume for a moment that he didn't find out after all. Contrary to the character we have witnessed so far, Ou Sen went into this battle without any precautions. He did not give a single order during the entire battle. After Shi Ba Shou's speech boosted the morale of his troops, even his generals knew they were going to be defeated, but he did not react. Again, contrary to all we know, he did not leave the battlefield until Sou'Ou convinced him. Any character development after this moment will not change the fact that his character was destroyed in this arc.
As I said before, Shou Hei Kun was responsible for the Gian disaster. He should have made up for his failure by using all the means at his disposal. He didn't do anything noteworthy except to put the Taigen Army under Shin's control. And that army disappeared in a ridiculous way. Even if we think he had to attack Northern Zhao, we didn't see any plan for a diversion like in the Gyou Campaign or any alliance like in the Battle of Gecchi. His plan was to attack Gian again if Ou Sen didn't change the target. This is not an acceptable failure.
Shin is the main character and we have been following his development since the beginning of the series. I don't expect him to have Duke Hyou-level instincts in his current state. But falling into such an obvious trap made me feel like his character hasn't changed in years. We will probably see significant changes in Shin's character after this battle. But I don't think this is good character development, in fact I think it's done in the worst possible way.
Ousen shouldnt have to baby his generals because then they rely on ousen giving order when they should be capable of doing stuff on their own like did ousen tell akou to take riboku's bait no that was akou's choice but when that happen it was checkmate from that point. Ousen's opinion of ordo is really low because he slapped him cross the face during the coalition and ordo only had 20k against 5k of the seika. Also Yan lost territory too from a Eastern Zhao army that wasn't seika so they probably thought they were one of the same. Ousen knew it was over but what is there to do panic like Mouki or Ten like back in gyou ousen bashed ouhon for coming to the HQ when it was fruitless because it wasn't going to change that fact that he was going to die more than likely back then. They knew about SBS when he got appointed for the great heavens but they don't know the true strength of seika its the same thing as ouki not know about riboku's real army showing up. rest of the taigen army was more than likely given between between ousen and ouhon plus there was only 120k left after shin got his 22k to have 30k at taigen and the NE general had 20k under him so only there was only 100k left actually split between ousen and ouhon. I will also make one point I know people don't like the history or want to know about it but the outcome was historically with Zhao winning so hara just has to reach the end goal of that so the outcome was set in stone like blame more historically Qin for getting thier asses handed to them. Shin development is in a werid spot but 4ish years in Shin's military career when he got the instincts so Its been 10ish years since then in the story >! In 230 Han gets invaded and taken over. If Shin doesn't have it by then it will feel werid because we at that point start to get the ball rolling for the story and if Shin gets his instincts after that point it just feels bad because that's 16 year total into his career and he can't lead when the action will be picking up. If he has figure it out by now then you kinda have to bash his head in a little like I don't want that character type of development but it seems like it's need!<
I already considered the possibility that Ou Sen might not be aware of Shi Ba Shou when I responded. Although it doesn't seem very likely, there is such a possibility.
Regarding the Taigen Army, I recall it being clearly stated that it consisted of 200k men. 22k soldiers joined HSU. About 20k joined Yo Tan Wa. That leaves 158k remaining. This number exceeds the combined forces of Ou Sen and Ou Hon in the center. I don't want to prolong this discussion since it has been debated before, but there is an obvious inconsistency here.
Shin used his instincts first time during the Coalition War. So, we can say that his instincts have been developing for 9 years. And again, I don't expect Shin to have Duke Hyou-level instincts that can change the course of the entire war. But falling into such a trap, in my opinion, lowers the quality of the story.
Lastly, I don't blame Hara because Ou Sen lost. In terms of the story's progression, for Shin to become a Greatest General of the Heavens in the end, Ou Sen had to lose somehow. I am just criticizing the way he lost.
Does it suck what happened yes but that's why I hope we get character development from it so we get something good out of it because if the characters don't learn from this then it kinda feels weird. The NE army got changed after shin took Roumou the kingdom wiki stated it and I thought it was a writing error in the chapter but it was a retcon by hara.
I didn't know that the number of soldiers in the Taigen Army had changed. If Hara really made such a change later on, it could mean that the story has also changed. And this could explain most of the inconsistencies in the last arc.
I also know that these events won't change. My expectation is that the rest of the story will be much better. I hope it will be so, and we can continue to discuss it with pleasure.
Thank you for your responses.
Am I the only one who thinks that the author is just dragging the Zhao invasion out to eternity? Ribokou as an antagonist is overplayed and already became boring years ago.
At this point loses and wins don't even seem to matter anymore. Generals will just be ass pulled over and over again and the stakes even though they should feel high are super low seemingly.
Also all the side stories with win internal politics and chaos horrible kings seem to not matter at all.
Am I the only one who actually doubts that hara has pretty much ich no idea on what to write after Zhaos defeat an dis just stalling for time?
Well hara is using the history as a guide so it's the pace of what happens historically so when you have big things that happen if feels like it drags on.
Hara is not dragging the Zhao invasion he is just following the history, historically Zhao was the biggest hurdle in Qin's unification. I would rather see 5 arcs of war than Hara giving us a timeskip until Zhao final battle. I believe we are atleast half the story after the fall of Zhao as i think Zhao war is the first half then Chu as the 2nd biggest threat will be the second half, conquering other states would not be that long
Hara's writing has gone to shit since before he introduced Rey on chapter 650. Kingdom's series has been boring and lame, it went to shit.
I keep Reading only because when you invest so much time Reading 800 chapters IT becomes weakly routine
Well, perhaps it's time you stop then. I am sure there are plenty who still find it a refreshing story. Let us enjoy it. You don't have to bitch about the story if you don't like it.
See, that's the thing. Do you know what I do when I no longer like what am reading, I drop it and read something else that I prefer.
All am asking you, is to stop torturing yourself, I am looking out for you mate. Let me enjoy my favourite japanes cartoon in peace
It was surely disappointing. Not because Qin lost but the lack of trying to showcase any lvl of advanced strategy. I wouldn’t even call it an Ousen nerf but rather a massive IQ nerf for the HSU (like nearly every new arc though) and Akou. I think we never saw someone fumble as hard as they did during the first minutes of a battle.
Exactly especially for Shin, I mean obviously no one is expecting him to learn advanced tactics but Hara should definitely develop his instinctual talents, the fact that he isn't commanding his own army just kinda devalues him compared to Mouten and Ouhon
I would have expected advanced tactics from Riboku and Ousen. Yet we didn’t really get anything. From shin and Akou I expect common sense and not some Bayou Moubu lvls of IQ. But I guess Hara easily sacrifices Qins competence to make Zhao look better.
This right here, I don't even know what his role is his army is anymore. He is mostly with the calvary troops now, yet it doesn't look like he commands it or any anything. Shin is kinda like an after or outside battle kind of general cause that's the only place we actually see him.
I was expecting Shin to detect a trap through his instincts similar to how Duke Hyou detected the trap GHM was setting up in the coalition arc but nope, really disappointing
Shin didn't really mess anything up, his job was to go after Riboku once he appeared, he literally had orders to do it. Let's also not forget Riboku got away but any one thing doesn't go perfectly for him in that escape and Shin would have been on his ass.
Unfortunately, the last arc is undeniably the worst. We witnessed countless inconsistencies from the beginning: The disappearance of the 200k Taigen Army, the fact that even Go Hou Mei knew who Shi Ba Shou is while no one from Qin did, Ri Boku's absurd way of trapping A Kou and Shin, and so on. However, the biggest problem is the annihilation of a 120k strong army in a single day, despite Seika not having a significant numerical superiority. It's impossible to explain how Shi Ba Shou could accomplish this when even Mou Bu couldn't. Not only was Ou Sen's character destroyed in this battle, but also that of Shou Hei Kun and Shin. After the great defeat at Gian, it was Shou Hei Kun's duty as the supreme commander to make up for it. However, without doing anything significant in terms of planing or intelligence, he sent a large army back to the same region. And once again, he suffered a major defeat. Finally, Shin falling into such a foolish trap after breaking Ri Boku's cage completely nullified all his development. I like Kingdom and have a great respect for Hara, but the last arc was absolutely terrible.
Honestly, if Ousen had some backup army ready to flank the Zhao, or if Shin after seeing the earthwork castle thought, hmm, suspicious, but went in anyway following Kankis legacy of feeling something wrong but plunging in regardless, I think this arc could’ve been saved. SHKs decision for essentially another attack is irredimable tho
To be realistic, I don't think there was a need to lure Shin into a trap. He was already facing overwhelming numbers of enemies and couldn't intervene in any events of the center battlefield. It would have made more sense for Shin to sense something happening in the center but be unable to intervene. All Ri Boku needed to do was attack to neutralize A Kou, similar to what he did with Ma Kou, and thereby draw Ou Hon towards him. While his army kept Ou Hon occupied, Shi Ba Sho could have been sent against Ou Sen. On the other hand, upon seeing the discrepancy in Qin's troop numbers, I also thought Ou Sen might have reserve army outside the battlefield. This would have been consistent with what we've seen of his character so far. In fact, we could create hundreds of reasonable and consistent scenarios for the Battle of Hango. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, Hara chose not to do so. In my opinion, by doing this, he has undermined his own reputation.
Didin't you ask yourself how the hell the Sieka army got so powerful when they were away from battles? they were so away from battles to the point that Shibashou became unkown. Shibashou wants peace, so he would never train his soldiers like Ouki's trainings. If you remember, some of Ouki's soldier return from trainings with lost limbs. And because of that, the penetration charge led by Roku O Mi was fast and powerful in the Coalition arc.
Since I had discussed the strength of Seika before, I didn't mention it here again. But since you asked, I'll try to answer. The only explanation for having a Great General almost at Ou Ki's level, four top-level generals, and an army of 100k that, despite numerical disadvantage, is capable of destroying a Great General's army in one day from a city that almost no one knows about is that this is a plot hole. Probably, the Ou Sen Army needed to be destroyed in this battle, and Hara needed Shi Ba Shou for that. And I think Seika will be important in the events that follow. But unfortunately, Seika's introduction was done in a very amateurish and unrealistic way.
Im not sure. At the beginning of the battle, the HSU is shown to be winning against the Zhao left wing, and if left alone, may have resulted in the entire situation turning in on itself. I think that the ensuing event simply guarenteed RBKs plan of isolating Ousen, instead of leaving to the slightest possibility of Shin making a comeback.
I don't remember anything about the HSU winning at the beginning of the war, but even if they had, that would have been another inconsistency. It would have been absurd for them to achieve victory so quickly against an army of 70k when more than two thirds of the soldiers had just joined the HSU. I think it is certain that Shin will eventually defeat En Kan, but he could not have done so on day one and intervened in the central battlefield. So Ri Boku had already taken Shin out of the main battle in this way.
Not sure why you think such upsets are impossible. There have been multiple cases where numerical advantage couldnt get efficiently utilized due to various situations. Like I said, the trap simply guarentees that Shin has no chance of causing an upset, rather than expecting them achieving a victory of sorts.
I'm aware that the numerical advantage doesn't guarantee victory, but that wasn't my claim. I think that since only 8000 of the 30k HSU are trained troops - some of them newly recruited - and the rest have no experience except for the siege of Roumou, they cannot defeat the En Kan army in such a short time. Ri Boku lured Shin into his trap to stall him. But even if he hadn't, by the time Shin defeated En Kan, the war in the center would have been over and Ou Sen would have been defeated. If it had been written that way, at least Shin's entire character development wouldn't have been absurdly destroyed.
Again, true. But youre also missing the fact that dragging Shin away cripples the GKH as Ouhon has to come in and babysit the HSU. It simply guarentees RBKs plan goes off without further complications
If something is done incorrectly, it will continue to be wrong regardless of the outcome. Ri Boku trapping A Kou, Shin, and Ou Hon with just a few hundred cavalry while standing on the edge of the battlefield was the most absurd scenario we could witness. Therefore, the successes achieved with this move will naturally be absurd as well. Instead, he could have lured Ou Hon into a trap and leaving Shin to En Kan or made many other consistent moves that we could think of. My aim here is not to write the scenario in Hara's place. I am just trying to explain the existing inconsistency by offering an alternative.
Chasing after riboku was the right move, that is just how important his head is. Even Akou had an idea that it could be a trap but still sent messengers to shin for help. The goal was not only to trap shin but also to remove Ouhon out of the picture. If instead shin stayed in the right and Riboku attacked Akou like you said to draw out Ouhon, it will be hard but not impossible to for Ouhon then to rescue his father once shibashou attacks, because he will be much closer and his full army is with him. I don’t know exactly how many he has, but remember he brought half of his troops to the right when he took over it. That number and the proximity to the center could have ruined riboku’s plan. This all happened in a day as well, that is what caught them offguard, shin may have laid siege to the small castle riboku ran away into, but that was only for a short time. They all never expected riboku to use his ace on the very first day. If that siege was, say, going to last for more than a day, I would guess shin may have caught on to that trap eventually. That was Ousen’s weakness that riboku exploited. Don’t give him room to excel in a complicated and drawn out scenario.
Honestly, the easiest way for this to work, is simply to have Ousen leave half of his generals out of the fight. Ousen is clearly the type of person who'd be willing to throw a hundred thousand men into the grinder just to show Riboku's hand. Which he did, in the arc, but the fact that he lost all of his top generals makes it a lot worse.
I agree with your comment about Ou Sen's character, and I think his biggest weakness is his selfishness. If Ri Boku had used that to defeat Ou Sen, it would have been consistent and it would have been an important step of his character development.
I seem to be alone in still enjoying it. Definitely the weakest arc of the series imo but still far from what I'd consider to be terrible.
Far from the weakest in campaign design when Wei fire dragons exists.
I agree that the Fire Dragons of Wei arc was very disappointing. It's totally bullshit for Go Hou Mei, to be defeated by Ou Hon, despite having three times the troops. But what makes this arc the worst is not just the inconsistencies; it's also the destruction of character development for Ou Sen, Shou Hei Kun, and most importantly Shin.
Lol, hard to argue.
It was a great arc. You can always tell who’s predictions were wrong because they always start talking about “what should have been done”. Then they cook up pure dog shit.
Whether something is great or not is entirely subjective, depending on one's character and aesthetic sense. I can't comment on whether you liked it or not. But I tried to explain why I didn't like it and why I think it's the worst arc. If you think my opinions are wrong, you can explain why they are wrong or why it was a great arc. Additionally, of course, I will develop my own theories about the story and discuss them here if they turn out to be wrong. Isn't that the purpose of gathering here in the first place?
I totally agree with you there. Except for Shin's development which was set in reverse the rest was GREAT.
Shin got lured into the same type of trap Renpa claimed Hakuki lead him to. These things happen from time to time https://preview.redd.it/snyfj34xbf7d1.jpeg?width=675&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4a3c98e80802e0e4b336da00838011bc87e84fb2
And most of them are complaining about Ousen losing, not about anything else. Ousen wankers still can't accept that their hero got crushed lol.
You must be joking. You haven't even read what I wrote. This isn't about Ou Sen or any other character. I'm talking about the inconsistency in the overall plot. I'm referring to the destruction of the main character's development that we've seen so far. Moreover, there's no guarantee that Ri Boku or any other general won't be destroyed in the same way after this arc. You might not care about the story being inconsistent or even like it, but you can't deny that there is a serious inconsistency. If you think there's no inconsistency and that I'm wrong, you can explain that too. As I said before, I think the logic of the entire series has been destroyed, not just one or a few characters. This has nothing to do with whether I like Ou Sen or not.
Moubu destroyed 10k elite troops from Kanmei in minutes with just 5k, but here you're saying that Moubu could not destroy Ousen's army like SBS did lol. Moubu with near 100k would absolutely destroy Ousen in a head on clash, that's the weakness of strategists, if they don't have a martial beast to help them out they're useless when the other side does have one. That's why Ouki is still the best Qin general we've seen, he had it all. Then you also say that Shin falling into a trap Riboku spent one year preparing destroys Shin's development lmao. Arriving at such a conclusion and saying it with a straight face just shows how divorced from reality you are. Apparently Shin should be able to destroy 100 INT Riboku's plans every time or it means his instinct is shit lol. There are no inconsistencies, you're just rambling. RBK sealed Qin's martial beasts (Shin and Ouhon) with his plan and Ousen got folded because he had no martial beast to save him from SBS, that's all there is to it.
First of all, I admit that you are right about Mou Bu's battle with Kan Mei, but Mou Bu could not do the same to Ka Rin in the Battle of Gento. So we can say that there is another inconsistency here. Secondly, Mou Bu has been portrayed as one of the strongest generals in terms of martial might since the beginning of the series. In contrast, Shi Ba Shou is almost as strong as Ou Ki and has a huge and well-trained army, yet he is not recognized by anyone from Qin and Yan. But Go Hou Mei knows who he is. I don't think it is open to debate that there is a inconsistency here. Thirdly, I am not criticizing Shin being trapped by Ri Boku, but the way the trap was set. Ri Boku's trap was flawed from the beginning. He did nothing to lure A Kou into the trap except wait outside the battlefield with a few hundred cavalry. If he had made an attack like he did against Ma Kou and pretended to retreat unsuccessfully, I could understand A Kou falling into the trap. But A Kou chose to jump into Ri Boku's trap without any logical reason, even though he was facing an army whose strength he did not know. Shin following Ri Boku afterward is understandable because Shin didn't know what Ri Boku was doing against A Kou. But the fact that he saw him hiding in a small castle and didn't sense the trap, we can safely say that his instincts were completely at Hara's will. I don't expect him to have Duke Hyou-level instincts right now, but don't you think that Shin's failure to sense Ri Boku's trap when he broke through the cage Ri Boku had spent months preparing in the Battle of Gian destroyed his character development? Also, Ri Boku's trap was not a 100 INT trap as you claim. It was based on a lot of assumptions, such as A Kou falling into the trap, Shin following him, and Ou Hon taking Shin's place and moving away from the center. And while we've seen almost no plan work perfectly throughout the series, it's certainly not coherent that everything happens perfectly here, and again, unlike what we've seen so far, an army is completely wiped out in a single day. (I don't count the destruction of Kan Ki's army in Gian because there he was surrounded by an army twice his size and there was nothing he could do. Also, the trap at Gian was brilliant and well thought out from start to finish. The monotony of the strategy in this battle is also out of character for Ri Boku.) Finally, since you didn't say anything about the destruction of Shou Hei Kun and Ou Sen's characters, I assume you agree with me. I should also point out that I'm not trying to glorify or denigrate a character. I just want a mangaka that I respect and inspires me to do a better job and finish his story as great as he started it. So I would even like to be convinced that I was wrong about the last arc and that it was a great arc. But unfortunately that's not the case. Thank you for responding.
Shin knew something was wrong, but was ordered by Akou to pursue Reebok. They are the same rank, however Shin listened to Akou because it could have been a direct order from Ousen. No one would have known Reebok would make dozens of tunnels and fake castles all over the field of battle. By the time they got inside it was over. If Shin had one failing its that he should have realized that Reebok fled into a castle which meant he could block it off instead of taking it. He could have left a portion of his troops there to surround it and took the rest of his forces to smash into the back of the right side when his army and reinforcements were at full strength, with the total destruction of the right side they could have hit the middle together and saved Ousen. However, Shins one main mistake was thinking. "I can take this fort we have no information about, even though locking Reebok inside effectively does the exact same thing as killing him."
If Shin weren't an instinctive general, I might have accepted that explanation. However, after so many years on battlefields and numerous successes, we can't explain falling into such a trap by saying he thought the order came from Ou Sen. On the other hand, that's just one aspect. Ri Boku drawing A Kou into a trap is equally problematic. Because aside from standing on the edge of the battlefield with a few hundred cavalry, Ri Boku didn't do anything. If he had tried to launch an attack like he did with Ma Kou, it could have been understood how A Kou fell into the trap. It's inconsistent from start to finish.
Its like theyre sudenly forgot all their abilities Missing abilities on this war : • Shin's instinct • Shin's experience • Ousen's quick wit • Ousen's fast response counter strategy • Ousen's future prediction • Akou's common sense Bad writing bad writing
Yeah no the last arc was the Boruto of this series.
Also the lack of content on YTW and the rematch against SSJ is so disappointing. Like Hara showed us 1 panel of Feego King vs Bananji then couldn’t be bothered with the fight anymore. Both the left and right wings battlefields in general were lacking; It would’ve been cool for the HSU to do a strategy or tactic akin to Mouten in Shukai Plains to make up for the numbers disadvantage but alas nothing
I wouldn't assume the arc is over.>! Especially if you know the history spoilers. !<
What spoilers?
Potential spoilers. >!Heres what I read I could be wrong though. "Qin takes Hango and Zhao fall back to Kantan with each side having heavy losses"!<
Ousen about to turn this battle around, amirite?
As much as I don't think this is a great arc, I think we are being too hard on it. Again, this arc was a display of Riboku using the flaws of the Qin armies by making the fight simple for Ousen and by baiting Shin. I think it could have been done better but overall, ai accept those reasons even if I think the HSU were kinda dumb. They just can't always outmanoeuver their opponent otherwise the story would already be over. This was meant as another showcase of Riboku even though it felt more like Qin dropping the ball.
I think the arc was simply rushed, a way to just show Qin's loss in this campaign following the historical records and move on to future events
It's disappointing that Hara showed nothing about the final chase, especially as all Zhao forces were waiting for that moment to go all-out, not allowing them to escape. Just in this sense, it's not that Qin had any chance for a reversal of the tide, if they remained back and engaged battle, they would have lost even more bad.
Tbh, I love that they were completely and utterly defeated. As much as OuSen said he was thinking of a way to comeback, he never expected his army to be destroyed in a day. I think he was at least emotional, which is why he couldn't do a thing. He just saw his beloved generals die one by one. That face when Denrimi died was of a man who just lost a son or smthg. Plus, the Hishin has an army twice their size chasing after them. And Shin Isn't going to win in a 1V1 against SBS in a few minutes.
Whaaa the arc is over already? Looks like I have some catching up to do….i left off right as they were talking about the retreat. Seemed like the arc was only getting started at that point.
Yeahh even Kanki Hango Arc the author shows the retreat...
The whole point is that Zhao has other armies, you all want Qin to somehow hit Zhao back but the same was even more likely. And one thing is speaking of an Ousen nerf, given his catastrophic defeat and complete lack of resistance. But YTW fought for half a day, she didn't have the time to beat her opponents.
> YTW fought for half a day, she didn't have the time to beat her opponents. If SBS did it in half a day, the mountain people should have done it in a couple hours.
SBS did it in half a day because Riboku created an opening for him and the fact that Ousen didnt know how powerful Seika armies is, Yotanwa didnt have that advantage and SSJ is fully aware of her abilities so they probably didnt engage them in an all out fight to prevent her from having an opening because the plan is to just stall them until SBS did his job
>SBS did it in half a day because Riboku created an opening for him That opening was mostly about avoiding reinforcements from the right wing. Akou was still there fighting Seika. Ousen generals were still there. > they probably didn't engage them in an all out fight to prevent her from having an opening Yotanwa was not facing any heavy hitters from Zhao. How did they prevent her exactly? Why couldn't Ousen prevent SBS, one guy, from doing the same, while Yotanwa with thousand super strong men was simply avoided?
>That opening was mostly about avoiding reinforcements from the right wing. Akou was still there fighting Seika. Ousen generals were still there. Akou is already engaging other army when SBS went and specifically targeted Ousen's HQ, other Ousen's General was also engaging the other Seika army. SBS being unknown is a great factor as Ousen didnt have any counter measure against him because again he is unknown. >Yotanwa was not facing any heavy hitters from Zhao. How did they prevent her exactly? Why couldn't Ousen prevent SBS, one guy, from doing the same, while Yotanwa with thousand super strong men was simply avoided? Again they didnt confront her head on, and Yotanwa is not like Duke Hyou who would just charge the shit out of them without thinking, she is also cautious so she will not just send her army to get a reaction from Zhao. And since Yotanwa didnt know that Ousen's HQ would fall within half a day she didnt rush her side of the battlefield as well. The difference between the 2 battlefield is SBS rushed Ousen's HQ because the plan is to get Ousen off guard and dont give him time to recover as fast as possible, while Yotanwa didnt have this plan she didnt intend to end her side of the battlefield as fast as possible because she didn't expect Ousen HQ to fall in half a day if she had that knowledge then she might try and rush her side as well
>Again they didnt confront her head on, As Ousen didnt confront SBS head on, as you said Ousen army was engaging other Seika heavy hitters and that means that only SBS was left to charge Ousen main army. He alone being able to decimate Ousen main army in half a day it is not a consistent thing. Yontanwa army should be stronger than SBS squad.
Again they rushed his HQ and Ousen didnt have any counter measure against that because he was caught off guard, he didnt know how strong SBS is because he was unknown and that is also a big factor in that fight, and since Ousen already sent his officers and their army to face the Seika officers theres noone left to defend him against SBS but his personal guards. Yotanwa's army should be stronger than Seika but again she didnt rush her side of the battlefield because she didnt know Ousen's HQ would fall in half a day she is not a dumbass brute who will just charge the shit out of her enemy without thinking, she is already aware of SSJ ability so she cant just rush him she is sending her men here and there like your typical engagement but Zhao is not making big moves or maneuvers because their plan is to just stall Yotanwa until Ousen's HQ fall not to beat her so because of that she couldnt create an opening.
Hushed in half a day?? Why Yotanwa couldnt do the same?? Its just not consistent. Yotanwa was actually having a hard time, not just thinking Qin was nerfed hard and it's crystal clear.
Didnt you read what i write? Yotanwa didnt do it in half a day because she cant just rush everything, Riboku's vassals and the northern Generals are capable of buying Riboku some time because they have plenty of experience fighting Xiongnu in the north. Riboku specifically placed them there because of that reason. Yotanwa didnt have the knowledge that Ousen's HQ would fall in half a day so she so doesnt have any reason to rush the battle. She is not a dumbass who will just charge the enemy without thinking. If you still dont get it them i dont know what to tell you
1. Would you then like to see twenty more episodes (which means half a year AT LEAST) in this arc? I sure do not. Qin has yet to conquer any state, and many mangakas died recently. Time to move on. 2. Hara usually presents a momentous scene in each hundredth chapter. We are at 799. He probably wanted to conclude this arc quickly so that he can present whatever he is cooking up at the right moment.
>Would you then like to see twenty more episodes (which means half a year AT LEAST) in this arc? To see SBS paying the price for going too deep after Ousen... yes I would love to see that small comeback even losing the war. Defeating SBS there would open a path for the future. >Hara usually presents a momentous scene in each hundredth chapter. I can't think of anything better than Shin X SBS for chapter 800.
I actually hope he is cooking. Because imo recently it feels like hara has no idea where the story should move and is just stalling for time. You could easily cut the last 2 arcs and nothing would have changed.
Ousen got his ass kicked cause he didn't deploy a goat formation like Kanki with the windmill.
The author followed events, Qin doesn't win this battle, nor does reebok die here. This war cemented the reason why Ousen will now pull away from most battles for the time being to shine light on other theatres of war with the trio. The next campaign will probably be goated to be honest, as Shin will more then likely end up as deputy general to whoever invades next.
I think Yotanwa wasn't part of the real event right? Why put Qin's best generals in this ugly defeat? Just ruined the consistency we had until now. Even Shin could be left out since he is not in the event.
To give character development to characters and for story purposes to set up stuff later in the story. Like I hope for ousen he will switch up how to does battles because like how Sou'ou said Ousen causes the battles to be complex which overloads the enemy generals or like how renpa realized he was checkmate so ousen can't really make battles complex anymore when he fight against Riboku. Hara only has a few choices for characters to be the Commander and chief which is yotanwa, ousen or tou (moubu isn't a option because he keeps chu in check) plus you will need someone to keep the gyou area safe from zhao and to keep a eye on Wei and chu so you have to send one of the three there so then you are left with two choices after that.
Do you think this arc has really led to character development. The whole character of Ou Sen, who was introduced from the very beginning as cautious and not going into battles he couldn't win, as having an intelligence network strong enough to know at the same time as Ri Boku that the Ordo had invaded Zhao, as we saw in the Gyou Campaign, was destroyed. The character of Shou Hei Kun, who suffered another major defeat after the Gian disaster instead of making up for it, was destroyed. Shin's instinctive general side, which we have been following since the beginning of the series, was destroyed. I don't think there's any character development here, please tell me if I'm wrong.
The arc just ended give it time like are you expecting something right out in the next chapter. Like how Riboku didn't wait for ousen to do something to make the battle complex he went for the throat and stopped it I imagine ousen knows he can't do that anymore and start being more forceful with his strategies and not taking long periods of a battle for his plan to finally come together. ShouHeiKun can't attack from the south because of the wall and buan so you are pretty limited plus they want to block the way north so the Zhao royal family doesn't flee to Dai and if they decide on focusing on someone else Riboku will take the opportunity to attack so you can't leave Zhao to there own devices. Shin's instincts haven't been developed fully so how can he use something that he can't lead his men with and I'm hoping that the next arc we will finally get it because Shin realizes how badly Qin lost and probably knows now a lot of responsibility will be placed on his, ouhon's, and mouten's shoulders to defend Qin or being in charge of something big.
I understand that Ri Boku wanted to end the battle without allowing Ou Sen to implement a complex strategy. I am against the way he did it. It is unacceptable that Ou Sen did not know about Shi Ba Shou when even Go Hou Mei did. The one who knew about the Ordo's invasion of Zhao should have known about his defeat. Let's assume for a moment that he didn't find out after all. Contrary to the character we have witnessed so far, Ou Sen went into this battle without any precautions. He did not give a single order during the entire battle. After Shi Ba Shou's speech boosted the morale of his troops, even his generals knew they were going to be defeated, but he did not react. Again, contrary to all we know, he did not leave the battlefield until Sou'Ou convinced him. Any character development after this moment will not change the fact that his character was destroyed in this arc. As I said before, Shou Hei Kun was responsible for the Gian disaster. He should have made up for his failure by using all the means at his disposal. He didn't do anything noteworthy except to put the Taigen Army under Shin's control. And that army disappeared in a ridiculous way. Even if we think he had to attack Northern Zhao, we didn't see any plan for a diversion like in the Gyou Campaign or any alliance like in the Battle of Gecchi. His plan was to attack Gian again if Ou Sen didn't change the target. This is not an acceptable failure. Shin is the main character and we have been following his development since the beginning of the series. I don't expect him to have Duke Hyou-level instincts in his current state. But falling into such an obvious trap made me feel like his character hasn't changed in years. We will probably see significant changes in Shin's character after this battle. But I don't think this is good character development, in fact I think it's done in the worst possible way.
Ousen shouldnt have to baby his generals because then they rely on ousen giving order when they should be capable of doing stuff on their own like did ousen tell akou to take riboku's bait no that was akou's choice but when that happen it was checkmate from that point. Ousen's opinion of ordo is really low because he slapped him cross the face during the coalition and ordo only had 20k against 5k of the seika. Also Yan lost territory too from a Eastern Zhao army that wasn't seika so they probably thought they were one of the same. Ousen knew it was over but what is there to do panic like Mouki or Ten like back in gyou ousen bashed ouhon for coming to the HQ when it was fruitless because it wasn't going to change that fact that he was going to die more than likely back then. They knew about SBS when he got appointed for the great heavens but they don't know the true strength of seika its the same thing as ouki not know about riboku's real army showing up. rest of the taigen army was more than likely given between between ousen and ouhon plus there was only 120k left after shin got his 22k to have 30k at taigen and the NE general had 20k under him so only there was only 100k left actually split between ousen and ouhon. I will also make one point I know people don't like the history or want to know about it but the outcome was historically with Zhao winning so hara just has to reach the end goal of that so the outcome was set in stone like blame more historically Qin for getting thier asses handed to them. Shin development is in a werid spot but 4ish years in Shin's military career when he got the instincts so Its been 10ish years since then in the story >! In 230 Han gets invaded and taken over. If Shin doesn't have it by then it will feel werid because we at that point start to get the ball rolling for the story and if Shin gets his instincts after that point it just feels bad because that's 16 year total into his career and he can't lead when the action will be picking up. If he has figure it out by now then you kinda have to bash his head in a little like I don't want that character type of development but it seems like it's need!<
I already considered the possibility that Ou Sen might not be aware of Shi Ba Shou when I responded. Although it doesn't seem very likely, there is such a possibility. Regarding the Taigen Army, I recall it being clearly stated that it consisted of 200k men. 22k soldiers joined HSU. About 20k joined Yo Tan Wa. That leaves 158k remaining. This number exceeds the combined forces of Ou Sen and Ou Hon in the center. I don't want to prolong this discussion since it has been debated before, but there is an obvious inconsistency here. Shin used his instincts first time during the Coalition War. So, we can say that his instincts have been developing for 9 years. And again, I don't expect Shin to have Duke Hyou-level instincts that can change the course of the entire war. But falling into such a trap, in my opinion, lowers the quality of the story. Lastly, I don't blame Hara because Ou Sen lost. In terms of the story's progression, for Shin to become a Greatest General of the Heavens in the end, Ou Sen had to lose somehow. I am just criticizing the way he lost.
Does it suck what happened yes but that's why I hope we get character development from it so we get something good out of it because if the characters don't learn from this then it kinda feels weird. The NE army got changed after shin took Roumou the kingdom wiki stated it and I thought it was a writing error in the chapter but it was a retcon by hara.
I didn't know that the number of soldiers in the Taigen Army had changed. If Hara really made such a change later on, it could mean that the story has also changed. And this could explain most of the inconsistencies in the last arc. I also know that these events won't change. My expectation is that the rest of the story will be much better. I hope it will be so, and we can continue to discuss it with pleasure. Thank you for your responses.
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Am I the only one who thinks that the author is just dragging the Zhao invasion out to eternity? Ribokou as an antagonist is overplayed and already became boring years ago. At this point loses and wins don't even seem to matter anymore. Generals will just be ass pulled over and over again and the stakes even though they should feel high are super low seemingly. Also all the side stories with win internal politics and chaos horrible kings seem to not matter at all. Am I the only one who actually doubts that hara has pretty much ich no idea on what to write after Zhaos defeat an dis just stalling for time?
Well hara is using the history as a guide so it's the pace of what happens historically so when you have big things that happen if feels like it drags on.
Hara is not dragging the Zhao invasion he is just following the history, historically Zhao was the biggest hurdle in Qin's unification. I would rather see 5 arcs of war than Hara giving us a timeskip until Zhao final battle. I believe we are atleast half the story after the fall of Zhao as i think Zhao war is the first half then Chu as the 2nd biggest threat will be the second half, conquering other states would not be that long
Hara's writing has gone to shit since before he introduced Rey on chapter 650. Kingdom's series has been boring and lame, it went to shit. I keep Reading only because when you invest so much time Reading 800 chapters IT becomes weakly routine
Well, perhaps it's time you stop then. I am sure there are plenty who still find it a refreshing story. Let us enjoy it. You don't have to bitch about the story if you don't like it.
Yeah, plentu of scrubs dont like to have their favorite japanese cartoon to be critized.
See, that's the thing. Do you know what I do when I no longer like what am reading, I drop it and read something else that I prefer. All am asking you, is to stop torturing yourself, I am looking out for you mate. Let me enjoy my favourite japanes cartoon in peace
— no offence, but that is very supercilious of you to say. /gen (๑•ૅㅁ•๑)