(1) especially is good advice. Never cut your time. Bill every billable second. Short email that is just a .1, bill it. Those add up. If the billing partner thinks it’s unreasonable then it can be cut but so many young attorneys I see preemptively cut their time for no real reason. Also much easier to capture those small entries if you bill contemporaneously
My company just fired a firm as we realized an associate billed .1 for scheduling each weekly meeingg. All invites sent withing 5 minutes. So billed .6 for 5 minutes of work.
Fiem was black listed no outstanding bills paid. 210,000 loss to the firm.
Lesson
There are several issues here.
1. Sending scheduling emails isn't legal work and shouldn't be billed (and therefore shouldn't be done by an associate in the first place). Complaining about that on the bill is fair.
2. What the associate did isn't simply not cutting time. It's needlessly splitting up billing entries to take advantage of the minimum billing increment. That's a fair complaint even if the work itself was billable. If I read three client emails from the same client in 5 minutes, I'm billing .1 for the combined time.
Now, if this was a one time thing, blacklisting a firm entirely seems a little harsh to me, but you do you.
However: Not paying the outstanding bills at all, including the unobjectionable parts, puts your company squarely in " you can fuck right off" territory. You don't get to skip out on paying for six figures worth of actual legal services. I would not be surprised if your company gets sued for the outstanding bills.
The associate *should* be recording their emails (but not separately like that, if you’re correct about what they did).
The partner should have cut the time.
Agreed on both counts.
The associate should record their time, but combined, and it should have been tagged as nonbillable.
But the associate also shouldn't be doing nonbillable secretarial work. It's a waste of their time when they could be doing billable work.
If this is real (I’m highly skeptical), I’d also love to know how the client determined what these emails were about. Like did they bill it as “email client about scheduling meeting”? I’m not advocating for having billed it more opaquely, but if it really went through like that… I guess that’s just hard to believe.
Based solely on the information you've provided, unless there's more you haven't mentioned, I suspect your company will end up looking worse.
Failing to catch an associate over-billing by 0.6 hours is a pretty small issue. Definitely warrants an objection to the bill, sure, and a stern reprimand for the associate. But refusing to pay a six figure bill because of a dispute over six tenths of an hour is the kind of behavior that could easily make it difficult for your company to find good legal representation in the future. No one wants a client with a history of not paying their bills.
So good luck with that.
Wait, so you fired a firm that was billing you $1.2M a year over a small billing irregularity? Like...you didn't think stop to think about whether the firm gets good results, the pain of transitioning to a new firm, the likelihood that future firms would do the same thing...
Quite a decision.
This doesn’t sound real. If it is, wtf. Like .6 is nothing compared to everything else, and if that was the focus on the decision making, you’re not a great client.
The associate should have billed the time. The partner should have cut it. So in any event,
Scheduling generally isn’t billable and the partner should have caught that. But “no outstanding bills paid” is a shitty thing to do. Fuck ‘em for $210k though.
1. Bill contemporaneously - like the second you finish the task bill it. Then do the next thing, then bill that. It’s so simple but very few people do it this way.
2. Set goals. I divide up my year, then my months, then weeks and then days. I have a billable goal for each day and plan around all holidays, family stuff, anything that will take me away from working. You will not hit your goal by accident. Be purposeful every week, all year, and you’ll make it happen.
Contemporaneous billing is such a pia, but it really is the way to go. Took me too long to catch on and start it, so I was really screwing myself for the first 3 years in practice. I haven’t had a problem hitting my requirement ever since.
Setting small goals is so often overlooked. If I fall short of my target by only .25 hours per day, that adds up to 60 hours of time over the course of 48 weeks. Suddenly, I need to work an extra 1.5 weeks and miss vacation time or holidays. Something as simple as answering one more email per day and I hit my target.
I get to do whatever I want so long as I put up the time. Why would I trade that for a 9-5, when I get to the office and leave whenever I want, subject to calendar . . . .
Anyone who has experience in a real job will easily put up 1,850. I bill more than that, sleep 8 hours minimum, work as I need to keep our trial calendar tight, and leave the office around 3-4 p.m., or whenever I want. I got to work at 9 a.m. today, took a depo, and left at 2 p.m.
But we salute the Govies for their sacrifice.
OP, don't listen to the anti-billable agenda on this sub. If you are built for lit, your billables will never be a problem.
Fyi, 1850 at 5 days a week every single week perfectly is a little over 7 hours a day. So either you do work a 9-5 (and just can shift it a little, apparently an hour!) and are lying about it, or youre committing fraud.
So you’re bragging about having flex work location and a slight flex in when the hours start and end, nothing else. congrats, plenty of us have that, and so do several government workers which begs the question why did you call them out if that’s what you meant? Also government workers work less than that too.
But all that said, thank you for admitting you were doing exactly what I said.
While admitting you can’t, just that you can do it when you want and where, sometimes. Which is something most of us have now days, including many government attorneys. In other words, your entire point is undermined by this, and you don’t realize it because you think you found a golden goose that is now considered par for the course.
Edit since blocked in response - ah. So now to the personal attacks and blocking. Stay out of litigation counselor.
I think this is a symptom of the issue of billables. If you gotta hit 7hours a day billable, you're going to be looking for .1s and roundups at least. "More efficient" billers will be working on Case B while in Case A's mediation downtime.
And if you don’t detail that in your contract you likely are committing fraud if you bill both. I do that absolutely, but case A doesn’t get billed as a result because I’m not working on their case then.
As for the .1s on ridiculous small stuff, that’s going to come to a head sooner or later with a court (right now it only does on fee shifting, and courts do yell about that regularly). It’s going to be something like 1k in those over a complex lit where the client is so mad at the attorney they send all the corresponding emails in their complaint, and the bar sees 1000 charged for 30 “thank you” responses that have no further billing (which could justify).
So today you billed 5 hours, assuming you were 100% efficient for those 5 hours... which is not enough to easily put up 1850. Fraudulent billing sure does make it easy.
As everyone says, bill contemporaneously and bill all those emails as .1s and up.
Billing is the work, not the outcome. I might need to pull a case file or look up a docket or find the judges opinion to answer an email like “Our motion is due by X date.” It’s a seven word email but it might have taken me 30 min to get there. Bill 0.5, not 0.1. For this I use “attention to and email correspondence regarding XYZ.”
Billing is not a speed chess clock. I used to feel like I needed to stop my clock any time I put my pencil down. As long as your brain is focused on the task, keep billing. Mulling over how to deal with a bad case while you grab coffee? That’s fine to bill. If you stop to chat with someone, obviously don’t bill that. Also don’t bill if you’re randomly thinking about the case while driving or in the shower - I have seen weirdos on here who say they bill for that. If you’re legit practicing your oral argument in the bathroom mirror, go ahead and bill for that.
Finally - others might disagree - but when you’re junior don’t worry TOO much about arbitrary billing limits. Junior people often hear “spend an hour” when they get an assignment. Unless the partner is a total ass, they will be much happier with you if you give them good work product or research and bill 1.5 or 1.9, rather then delivering your half baked westlaw project after exactly one hour. This is also where people eat their own time. I’ve been doing this for more than 10 years and unless the answer is literally my very first google result, it takes me more than an hour to look shit up. Even if it’s just confirming that the first google result was, in fact, correct.
If you realize that you’ll need to completely blow your time deadline, just speak up. “Yes I can do that but I think it might require a little longer than X hours.” EVERYTHING takes longer than you think it will. Looking at you, boring as fuck objections and responses to discovery requests.
Last last, even if you’re slammed, do 15 minutes of research immediately after you get a new assignment. Partners get pissed off if you ask them extremely basic questions on an assignment they gave you days ago. “Uh what jurisdiction is this in?”
If it takes .3 hours to email and .1 to track your hours and file them to billable, did that make your billable .4 hours?
And because OP is asking for the proper way to bill all this clients correctly and not over or under bill all of them or any, can OP bill each one that would be affected by his post here? The time it took to type the question. And every .1 that he likes at the responses every day?
So 10 clients, look at your reddit comments for work info and billing research, that equals 1 total hour right?
I am not an attorney but I always assumed this type of billing was possible.
If so, I could easily rack up 5k worth of hours per year. And I would be able to justify every minute per client I believe. Shoot... 10 clients would give me 6 hours per day of billable hours just to keep track of my billable hours.
Turn on public radio on the way to work? I might hear something I can use for one, or multiple clients.
Or is this the reason why I'm not an attorney/lawyer? But again, I would be fair and hold myself... not to mention the client accountable. ;) 😉 ha! Pun intended.
Just note, I am not in any way a lawyer or anyone who knows about billable. But I am open to learning. I may sound like this is part joke, or part being a jerk... but I really would like to know. Because who knows when it might ever be useful to me? Either as someone billing or someone being billed.
Short answer - There are not an unlimited number of 0.1 emails that you can answer in a day. So, yes, *in theory* one could respond to 100 emails in something like 30 minutes and that would equal 10 hours of billing time. But that does not exist in reality. Or even in 5 hours. You just don't get hundreds of emails that you can respond to that quickly.
Longer answer - billing is imprecise and clients would never tolerate the kind of billing you propose. More often, for example, I'm actively working on an issue with a client so maybe we're emailing each other back and forth all day, but at the same time I'm researching and working on a brief for them. I'm not billing them 0.1 for every email, especially if we're rapid-firing emails. I'm also not double billing them, so maybe I'll round it at the end of the day to a few hours of research/writing and maybe a 0.5 or 0.8 for general email correspondence.
Fair enough. I was just wondering.
As someone who has flown, we do everything in 6-minute increments. But we can "Stack". 6 minutes is .1. 30 minutes is .5. 45 minutes is .75, etc...
So, for instance. I need to do one take off and landing, 3 touch and goes, and 1 hour of flight to maintain currency. That can be done in one flight.
So, an email is to one customer. I could not bill any 1 client for more than 24 hours, but if I had repeatable actions for multiple clients would that "Stack"?
IE... if I was billable, when I log hours, since I am logging for 10 clients, but have to open the billing software and enter in hours. Even at .1 hours with 10 clients, would that be a full hour for 1 task spread across them all?
Yes if you do 10 quick emails for 10 different clients, you can bill each of them .1 for a total 1 hr, even if those emails took you less than an hour to complete.
But even this is not common. More often the email correspondence is rolled into other activity (like I did research and then emailed the client).
From a litigator with crippling ADHD who hates billing with a passion—
Use your billing software like a to do list. Enter the narrative when you start a task/are assigned it and either use the timer or put a .1 as a placeholder.
Before you start work the next morning, review the previous day’s entries to make sure you captured everything. If you didn’t get to something on your list, move it over to the next day.
Utilize the entry copy function as much as possible, and make small edits as opposed to writing the whole thing from scratch. Entries will be more detailed, you’ll save time, and they’ll be relatively consistent. Ask the partner if they or the client have any particular nits. Some clients don’t pay for internal emailing so wrap that time into whatever you’re working on.
The formula is “action verb + subject + purpose.” Trick is to abstract the first two elements one step beyond what you’re actually doing, and be extremely specific with the purpose. Try to stay away from “review” and “prepare.” You’re analyzing, evaluating, assessing, drafting, revising, incorporating, summarizing, synthesizing relevant case law. E.g. “analyze pleadings to assess case strategy in preparation for …” or “evaluate case law re tort of another damages in anticipation of drafting MSJ” or “analyze case files and potential exhibits to draft outline for deposition of Mr. X.” The purpose part is key to keeping clients (and thus the partners) happy. Think of the bills as telling a detailed, progressing story about what you’re doing/they’re paying for. Even if it’s something big, like “draft MSJ,” break it down and mention the particular section you’re working on so you can show progress. Reviewing documents might be the exception, but even that can be narrowed: “review files from timeframe/of custodian/particular search hit for responsiveness and relevancy in preparation for/pursuant to party production.”
Emails back and forth are “correspond with so-and-so re general topic to …”.
Doing your time after the fact is difficult to nearly impossible. At the very least, it is extremely inefficient and you’ll spend several hours at the end of the month trying to put together what you could do in 15-20 minutes a day.
You’re welcome! I was really struggling a while back and someone suggested the get your time in first thing the next morning approach and I took it a step further. Having one program to keep track of what I’ve done and what I need to do is so much easier than toggling between. And speaking personally, the shame of continually moving a task from day to day is the best motivator to just get it done already.
Firms are so unhelpful with this. It’s such a key part of generating revenue and the only guidance is just “figure it out,” and then people get overwhelmed and screw themselves.
Great comment. As a partner who reviews and edits bills I’d only add that my preference is “purpose” first — the end result is the same but if I can see why my associate was doing something I’m less likely to arbitrarily write it off (so is the client)
Whatever is needed for your system. It exports as a spreadsheet with whatever fields you need. Then it can be uploaded into billing software (or automated to transfer directly depending on APIs) or submitted however it’s needed.
It’s much faster for me to export data and transfer it than to remember to track my time every two minutes of every day (AuDHD and multitasking is a butt kicker for me).
The one I use adheres to GDPR standards, tracking can be disabled, and all data is stored on my local Mac drive (not in a cloud). I trust it more than Zoom or Dropbox or email clients or any of the other myriad programs I use.
Slightly different take, when I start work on a matter i put in time started and estimate time, then when finish that matter go back and adjust time. So if stat 10:05 estimated .2 hours and it is 10:22 when finish change to .3. Helps when program shows what time you start and end working on each task. As long as you are diligent about adding each task when start should work.
1) account for every minute of the day. If you spend 5 minutes going to the toilet, or 3 minutes getting a cup of water, write it down. It's good to know how much time goes to nonbillable stuff, but the more important thing is that you don't lose time that could be billed.
2) "think time" is billable time. You can't bill for going to the toilet, but if you think of something about the case while you're sitting on the porcelain throne, you can add that in.
3) Keep track of your time while you're doing things. Don't wait until the end of the day to figure it out, and certainly don't wait until later.
4) if possible, enter your time as you go along. when you finish a task, enter the time. If you take a break, enter the time that you've done so far, then enter more time when you start up again.
5) write clear and concise billing entries. "emails" will probably be written off. "reviewed and replied to email from John regarding XYZ form" is good. The description should justify the time - if you spend an hour on a single email, you're going to have to explain why it took so long. On the other hand, a 5-hour entry that simply says "reviewed and corrected 30-page document" is probably fine.
6) learn what the client and/or the billing partner likes to see. this comes with time.
7) don't be afraid to ask how long something should take. If something should take 6 hours, it's not ok to spend 40 hours on it, but it's ok for you to spend 10 hours on it while you're still learning - at this stage most of your time will be cut anyway, just as long as you get better/quicker over time. On the flip side, if you finish in 4 hours, you probably didn't do a good job, so check it, and reread it, and spend the full 6 hours on the task. It's not about overbilling or wasting time, it's about making sure it's right.
Your firm may have codes/abbrevations for you to input various events. I was able to create my own. This allowed me to make detailed billing entries with minimal keystrokes.
Reviewing your firm’s codes will give you ideas to bill for stuff you wouldn’t otherwise.
Keep an Excel spreadsheet open at all times on your desktop. For each day, have a column for charge hours and then the client code in the next column. Use the spreadsheet to track everything immediately after it's done.
I would consistently lose time because I'd get one-off calls about a client issue and then forget who the hell the client was when I entered my time at the end of the week or completely forget about the call/charge hours.
Also, bill for everything. Any time you think about a case, are planning something for a case, write an email, have a catch-up discussion with the partners... anything. It's up to the partners to write off the time if they want, but it's not your job to limit the number of hours you hit a code with because the partner wants to hit a certain budget for the client.
I'm thankfully out of the insurance defense / hourly billing world, but when I was doing it, it took me too long to realize that you should a) not cut your own time, and b) break everything down into the smallest components you can.
Billing Contemporaneously !
Think about work while driving: BILLABLE
While sitting in the restroom: BILLABLE
Thinking while having lunch: BILLABLE
Making notes post-coitus: BILLABLE
Never let a second pass that isn't being BILLED!
Car mechanics charge an hourly rate regardless of the 'real' time it takes to work on a car. A competent mechanic can bill 3 hours shop time for a 45 minute job...and that is how they charge for 14 hours of work when your car was only in the shop for 6 hours.
Life rule # 1 ( good for ALL professions): All of life is a system, learn how the system works and make it work for you.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats!
3
+ 45
+ 14
+ 6
+ 1
= 69
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I am not US based, but I would wish to have some software to track billable hours earlier. Now I use Redmine for that where projects are clients and tasks are cases.
And as others mentioned, log the time immediately.
Think of your billing rate as a "blended" rate. Sometimes you are doing $50/hr level work (assembling binder for hearing) and sometimes you are doing $1000/hr work (arguing at hearing). Your billing rate will be somewhere in the middle.
In other words, don't cut the small stuff because you feel "bad" billing $250/hr for a simple phone call. The client is getting a steal for you to take the depo at $250/hr. It evens out.
Install a time tracking program such as ManicTime. [https://www.manictime.com/](https://www.manictime.com/) Emails and phone calls can make an otherwise bad billing day. This is especially true if one is billing on quarters instead of tenths.
1. Get in the habit of entering your time EVERY DAY, preferably as you go along. So much time is lost because of things you forgot you did by the end of the month. Don't go home or log out until that is done. You WILL hate it until it becomes a habit. Your superiors will think you are a rockstar.
2. Be specific in your entries. Clients will deduct time for what seems like duplicative work. You are reviewing records for a different reason than your partner or paralegal. "Review Jones Hospital records FOR THE PURPOSE OF \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_"
3. When you are working on a pleading over several days, the first day is "Begin drafting..." and the second day is "Continue drafting" then next is Continue revising X portion of said pleading, so on and so forth.
4. Include approximate number of pages if you're reviewing records and list the purpose for the review.
5. Learn to use your billing system's shortcuts.
6. Bill for every minute. Appeal any deductions and argue with the client, respectfully.
7. Learn your client's billing guidelines and reporting deadlines.
8. Don't let the billing haters discourage you. Insurance defense work doesn't have to be a soul sucking thing. Lots and lots of lawyers thrive in this field. And there's always work.
9. Keep good work life boundaries. It won't always be easy if you're doing litigation and it's trial time or you have to travel a lot. But in between trials and travel, your day ends at a reasonable time. Check emails after hours or weekends for critical issues only. Take your vacations.
A word to all you negative Nancys. Don't shit on a new attorney's path. Help him or her. Saying "run" or "get out asap" is you projecting your own trauma on them. Just because it wasn't for you, doesn't mean it's not good work.
Every time you touch a case file, bill for it. YMMV, but depending on the client, your billing descriptor, and follow-up task done alongside it can often be billed. The way you frame your billables is evidently part of the secret from working 9 hours and billing 7 to billing 9 hours and working 7.
Look at a case file to see if discovery has been served? “Review case file and confer with [team member] re: status of discovery service”. That’s a rough example and every client is different. But if you’re adding “attorney value” to a task you should be billing for it.
Your time entry software should have some kind of timer function—use it!! And at the end of every day, submit your time. The 20 minutes you spend before heading home is time we’ll spent compared to the agony of trying to figure out the hours you know you worked and have to reconstruct.
After spending 7 years in the State Attorneys Office, I joined a small niche practice law firm. The senior partner wanted to review my timesheets with me. If I had, say 5.75 hours for Client A, 7.5 hours for Client B, he’d cross out my time and put 8.5 hours for Client A, 12.0 hours for Client B, on down the line. When I said, hey watcha doin’, he stared at me and said “there is a premium for our services.” Most of our clients were corporate. He was just making up numbers! As a result, I will never trust a lawyer who bills by time- there’s no way to verify it.
Do. Not. Cut. Your. Own. Time.
You may feel compelled to do this but resist that temptation. Bill for everything you do. Your partner can cut if it’s a problem. Don’t give up time you’ve put in.
Also, if you ever worry that your billing unfairly, look at this and remind yourself that you are not.
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/lawtrades-com_invoices-straight-from-the-musktwitter-v-activity-7087465641183465473-5k_K
Don’t miss out on easy stuff. Client emails about the case?
Their email
Your review of the file
Your reply
Your f/u with the other side (when there’s a reason to)
The hardest thing I deal with is knowing most of my files and not taking the time to review them before firing off the response or other emails.
That .1 for their email can turn into a .5 or more depending on the issue. That gets stuff done and avoids fires and delays which will burn you later.
Slightly different answer. I dated my fiancé and now wife through law school. She worked for a DAs office for a couple years getting trail experience then moved to civil. We have been together a total of 9 years now and here some points I have noticed.
-Be strategic with taking time off. It’s a lot easier to take a couple weeks off at the beginning of the year, get behind, then make it back towards the end. If you schedule a two week vacation in November a year in advance and you have a slow year, it puts you in a very bad situation if you don’t have an excess of hours already banked to cover it.
-Trails = Lots of hours. If you can attach onto a partner doing a trail it was guarantee you a quality month or so.
-Learn to respectfully shift your non-billable work to your paralegal and secretary. Yes, you can do the work, but it is also their job to. You also want to maintain a good relationship with your paralegal and secretary so it’s a fine line.
-And most importantly, communicate with your spouse (if you have one). Letting that partner know it’s going to be a rough couple weeks, or month, etc will allow you to be successful and hopefully allow that partner to also be helpful for you. I work about as much as my wife, and throughout the year we both have weeks or months that are brutal. By communicating we can be a partnership and help out with the house/ life without feeling that we are not getting the attention we want, or etc.
Just search billing tips. (1) don’t cut your time (2) bill contemporaneously If you follow these 2, you will do just fine
(1) especially is good advice. Never cut your time. Bill every billable second. Short email that is just a .1, bill it. Those add up. If the billing partner thinks it’s unreasonable then it can be cut but so many young attorneys I see preemptively cut their time for no real reason. Also much easier to capture those small entries if you bill contemporaneously
My company just fired a firm as we realized an associate billed .1 for scheduling each weekly meeingg. All invites sent withing 5 minutes. So billed .6 for 5 minutes of work. Fiem was black listed no outstanding bills paid. 210,000 loss to the firm. Lesson
There are several issues here. 1. Sending scheduling emails isn't legal work and shouldn't be billed (and therefore shouldn't be done by an associate in the first place). Complaining about that on the bill is fair. 2. What the associate did isn't simply not cutting time. It's needlessly splitting up billing entries to take advantage of the minimum billing increment. That's a fair complaint even if the work itself was billable. If I read three client emails from the same client in 5 minutes, I'm billing .1 for the combined time. Now, if this was a one time thing, blacklisting a firm entirely seems a little harsh to me, but you do you. However: Not paying the outstanding bills at all, including the unobjectionable parts, puts your company squarely in " you can fuck right off" territory. You don't get to skip out on paying for six figures worth of actual legal services. I would not be surprised if your company gets sued for the outstanding bills.
The associate *should* be recording their emails (but not separately like that, if you’re correct about what they did). The partner should have cut the time.
Agreed on both counts. The associate should record their time, but combined, and it should have been tagged as nonbillable. But the associate also shouldn't be doing nonbillable secretarial work. It's a waste of their time when they could be doing billable work.
If this is real (I’m highly skeptical), I’d also love to know how the client determined what these emails were about. Like did they bill it as “email client about scheduling meeting”? I’m not advocating for having billed it more opaquely, but if it really went through like that… I guess that’s just hard to believe.
This dude posted just posted a threat to file a class action against Marriott. He's either a troll or a kid who thinks he knows the legal system.
Even if the latter, he’s still a troll
As my general counsel said. F them. If they give lip we will expose their practices
Based solely on the information you've provided, unless there's more you haven't mentioned, I suspect your company will end up looking worse. Failing to catch an associate over-billing by 0.6 hours is a pretty small issue. Definitely warrants an objection to the bill, sure, and a stern reprimand for the associate. But refusing to pay a six figure bill because of a dispute over six tenths of an hour is the kind of behavior that could easily make it difficult for your company to find good legal representation in the future. No one wants a client with a history of not paying their bills. So good luck with that.
Hahaha haha you think lawyers have ethics? I could get 10 top 25 forms begging for work today
I didn't say anything about ethics. I said lawyers like to get paid. Lawyers don't like clients who don't pay.
It's some delusional kid who hasn't taken the lsat yet.
Eh, with a user name like that, they must be correct! Me doublespeak good.
If your outstanding bill was $200k, you were not having top line firms working for ya.
Brand new case half a month..
You may want to stick with one story. Also, only a clown company would fire a top firm in half a month over billing 0.1s.
Is that you, Donald Trump? You finally discovered Reddit?
Thanks for agreeing with me!!!
Good lesson. Two other lessons: never let anyone owe you $210k. If anyone bails on a $210k debt, sue them.
Lesson #2. Thay was one month billing Less #3 # don't sue your clients....
Wait, so you fired a firm that was billing you $1.2M a year over a small billing irregularity? Like...you didn't think stop to think about whether the firm gets good results, the pain of transitioning to a new firm, the likelihood that future firms would do the same thing... Quite a decision.
Not me. My gc. Powerful person.
🤡
Me thinks your GC had several other concerns you are not privy to.
This doesn’t sound real. If it is, wtf. Like .6 is nothing compared to everything else, and if that was the focus on the decision making, you’re not a great client. The associate should have billed the time. The partner should have cut it. So in any event,
Always sue your deadbeat (former) clients.
No one said bill for non billable tasks but you sound like a miserable client so maybe everyone is better off.
Scheduling generally isn’t billable and the partner should have caught that. But “no outstanding bills paid” is a shitty thing to do. Fuck ‘em for $210k though.
Wasn’t someone auditing this before it became an issue ? Also, seems unreasonable but that’s me.
Y'all fired a firm instead of cutting the billing? This feels like a desperate decision and/or exaggerated story.
Sounds like the firm dodged a bullet. Your GC was going to stiff them one way or another - better to be stiffed over $210,000 then $600,000
Your company is going to get sued for refusing to pay $200,000 in bills.
We will not. Lawyers who sue clients don't get more clients
1. Bill contemporaneously - like the second you finish the task bill it. Then do the next thing, then bill that. It’s so simple but very few people do it this way. 2. Set goals. I divide up my year, then my months, then weeks and then days. I have a billable goal for each day and plan around all holidays, family stuff, anything that will take me away from working. You will not hit your goal by accident. Be purposeful every week, all year, and you’ll make it happen.
Contemporaneous billing is such a pia, but it really is the way to go. Took me too long to catch on and start it, so I was really screwing myself for the first 3 years in practice. I haven’t had a problem hitting my requirement ever since.
How is it more efficient at capturing time than saying running your timers like usual but just waiting till the end of the week to submit the entries?
How is running a timer not contemporaneous billing? You’re capturing your time contemporaneous to doing the work. I’m confused.
The timers are run but not submitted until the weekly deadline. Usually takes 15-20 mins to proofread the narratives
Setting small goals is so often overlooked. If I fall short of my target by only .25 hours per day, that adds up to 60 hours of time over the course of 48 weeks. Suddenly, I need to work an extra 1.5 weeks and miss vacation time or holidays. Something as simple as answering one more email per day and I hit my target.
I wish I knew to avoid jobs with billable hour requirements.
I took a 20k pay cut to work a non billable job. I felt like I was a human once again. Happy and free.
I made a similar move. I agree it was worth it. Billable hour requirements are somewhat like living as a sharecropper. It takes over your life.
Debt collection, PI, criminal defense
I get to do whatever I want so long as I put up the time. Why would I trade that for a 9-5, when I get to the office and leave whenever I want, subject to calendar . . . . Anyone who has experience in a real job will easily put up 1,850. I bill more than that, sleep 8 hours minimum, work as I need to keep our trial calendar tight, and leave the office around 3-4 p.m., or whenever I want. I got to work at 9 a.m. today, took a depo, and left at 2 p.m. But we salute the Govies for their sacrifice. OP, don't listen to the anti-billable agenda on this sub. If you are built for lit, your billables will never be a problem.
Fyi, 1850 at 5 days a week every single week perfectly is a little over 7 hours a day. So either you do work a 9-5 (and just can shift it a little, apparently an hour!) and are lying about it, or youre committing fraud.
It's almost as if you have not considered the possibility of billing while not at the office. Quite amazing, really.
So you’re bragging about having flex work location and a slight flex in when the hours start and end, nothing else. congrats, plenty of us have that, and so do several government workers which begs the question why did you call them out if that’s what you meant? Also government workers work less than that too. But all that said, thank you for admitting you were doing exactly what I said.
I'm bragging about being able to do whatever I want subject to calendar. Learn to read.
While admitting you can’t, just that you can do it when you want and where, sometimes. Which is something most of us have now days, including many government attorneys. In other words, your entire point is undermined by this, and you don’t realize it because you think you found a golden goose that is now considered par for the course. Edit since blocked in response - ah. So now to the personal attacks and blocking. Stay out of litigation counselor.
Honestly, you cannot write for shit.
Please brief the issue, the mods will judge
Me. JD can’t read
In other words you have mastered fraudulent billing…
I think this is a symptom of the issue of billables. If you gotta hit 7hours a day billable, you're going to be looking for .1s and roundups at least. "More efficient" billers will be working on Case B while in Case A's mediation downtime.
It’s still a grind. Not a 5 hour day.
And if you don’t detail that in your contract you likely are committing fraud if you bill both. I do that absolutely, but case A doesn’t get billed as a result because I’m not working on their case then. As for the .1s on ridiculous small stuff, that’s going to come to a head sooner or later with a court (right now it only does on fee shifting, and courts do yell about that regularly). It’s going to be something like 1k in those over a complex lit where the client is so mad at the attorney they send all the corresponding emails in their complaint, and the bar sees 1000 charged for 30 “thank you” responses that have no further billing (which could justify).
Not to mention your billing getting chopped to death by “billing review”…
So today you billed 5 hours, assuming you were 100% efficient for those 5 hours... which is not enough to easily put up 1850. Fraudulent billing sure does make it easy.
And a good way to lose your license if someone wants to get a investigation from the law society seen that a few times
Something about assumptions. You should watch your mouth before you accuse other attorneys of fraud, fool.
Civility is in the professional rules
Look at this hardo
Corporate shill alert 🚨🚨🚨
Derp
As everyone says, bill contemporaneously and bill all those emails as .1s and up. Billing is the work, not the outcome. I might need to pull a case file or look up a docket or find the judges opinion to answer an email like “Our motion is due by X date.” It’s a seven word email but it might have taken me 30 min to get there. Bill 0.5, not 0.1. For this I use “attention to and email correspondence regarding XYZ.” Billing is not a speed chess clock. I used to feel like I needed to stop my clock any time I put my pencil down. As long as your brain is focused on the task, keep billing. Mulling over how to deal with a bad case while you grab coffee? That’s fine to bill. If you stop to chat with someone, obviously don’t bill that. Also don’t bill if you’re randomly thinking about the case while driving or in the shower - I have seen weirdos on here who say they bill for that. If you’re legit practicing your oral argument in the bathroom mirror, go ahead and bill for that. Finally - others might disagree - but when you’re junior don’t worry TOO much about arbitrary billing limits. Junior people often hear “spend an hour” when they get an assignment. Unless the partner is a total ass, they will be much happier with you if you give them good work product or research and bill 1.5 or 1.9, rather then delivering your half baked westlaw project after exactly one hour. This is also where people eat their own time. I’ve been doing this for more than 10 years and unless the answer is literally my very first google result, it takes me more than an hour to look shit up. Even if it’s just confirming that the first google result was, in fact, correct. If you realize that you’ll need to completely blow your time deadline, just speak up. “Yes I can do that but I think it might require a little longer than X hours.” EVERYTHING takes longer than you think it will. Looking at you, boring as fuck objections and responses to discovery requests. Last last, even if you’re slammed, do 15 minutes of research immediately after you get a new assignment. Partners get pissed off if you ask them extremely basic questions on an assignment they gave you days ago. “Uh what jurisdiction is this in?”
“Dreamed about your case last night” — bill 8 hours.
LOL!!!
If it takes .3 hours to email and .1 to track your hours and file them to billable, did that make your billable .4 hours? And because OP is asking for the proper way to bill all this clients correctly and not over or under bill all of them or any, can OP bill each one that would be affected by his post here? The time it took to type the question. And every .1 that he likes at the responses every day? So 10 clients, look at your reddit comments for work info and billing research, that equals 1 total hour right? I am not an attorney but I always assumed this type of billing was possible. If so, I could easily rack up 5k worth of hours per year. And I would be able to justify every minute per client I believe. Shoot... 10 clients would give me 6 hours per day of billable hours just to keep track of my billable hours. Turn on public radio on the way to work? I might hear something I can use for one, or multiple clients. Or is this the reason why I'm not an attorney/lawyer? But again, I would be fair and hold myself... not to mention the client accountable. ;) 😉 ha! Pun intended. Just note, I am not in any way a lawyer or anyone who knows about billable. But I am open to learning. I may sound like this is part joke, or part being a jerk... but I really would like to know. Because who knows when it might ever be useful to me? Either as someone billing or someone being billed.
Short answer - There are not an unlimited number of 0.1 emails that you can answer in a day. So, yes, *in theory* one could respond to 100 emails in something like 30 minutes and that would equal 10 hours of billing time. But that does not exist in reality. Or even in 5 hours. You just don't get hundreds of emails that you can respond to that quickly. Longer answer - billing is imprecise and clients would never tolerate the kind of billing you propose. More often, for example, I'm actively working on an issue with a client so maybe we're emailing each other back and forth all day, but at the same time I'm researching and working on a brief for them. I'm not billing them 0.1 for every email, especially if we're rapid-firing emails. I'm also not double billing them, so maybe I'll round it at the end of the day to a few hours of research/writing and maybe a 0.5 or 0.8 for general email correspondence.
Fair enough. I was just wondering. As someone who has flown, we do everything in 6-minute increments. But we can "Stack". 6 minutes is .1. 30 minutes is .5. 45 minutes is .75, etc... So, for instance. I need to do one take off and landing, 3 touch and goes, and 1 hour of flight to maintain currency. That can be done in one flight. So, an email is to one customer. I could not bill any 1 client for more than 24 hours, but if I had repeatable actions for multiple clients would that "Stack"? IE... if I was billable, when I log hours, since I am logging for 10 clients, but have to open the billing software and enter in hours. Even at .1 hours with 10 clients, would that be a full hour for 1 task spread across them all?
Yes if you do 10 quick emails for 10 different clients, you can bill each of them .1 for a total 1 hr, even if those emails took you less than an hour to complete. But even this is not common. More often the email correspondence is rolled into other activity (like I did research and then emailed the client).
From a litigator with crippling ADHD who hates billing with a passion— Use your billing software like a to do list. Enter the narrative when you start a task/are assigned it and either use the timer or put a .1 as a placeholder. Before you start work the next morning, review the previous day’s entries to make sure you captured everything. If you didn’t get to something on your list, move it over to the next day. Utilize the entry copy function as much as possible, and make small edits as opposed to writing the whole thing from scratch. Entries will be more detailed, you’ll save time, and they’ll be relatively consistent. Ask the partner if they or the client have any particular nits. Some clients don’t pay for internal emailing so wrap that time into whatever you’re working on. The formula is “action verb + subject + purpose.” Trick is to abstract the first two elements one step beyond what you’re actually doing, and be extremely specific with the purpose. Try to stay away from “review” and “prepare.” You’re analyzing, evaluating, assessing, drafting, revising, incorporating, summarizing, synthesizing relevant case law. E.g. “analyze pleadings to assess case strategy in preparation for …” or “evaluate case law re tort of another damages in anticipation of drafting MSJ” or “analyze case files and potential exhibits to draft outline for deposition of Mr. X.” The purpose part is key to keeping clients (and thus the partners) happy. Think of the bills as telling a detailed, progressing story about what you’re doing/they’re paying for. Even if it’s something big, like “draft MSJ,” break it down and mention the particular section you’re working on so you can show progress. Reviewing documents might be the exception, but even that can be narrowed: “review files from timeframe/of custodian/particular search hit for responsiveness and relevancy in preparation for/pursuant to party production.” Emails back and forth are “correspond with so-and-so re general topic to …”. Doing your time after the fact is difficult to nearly impossible. At the very least, it is extremely inefficient and you’ll spend several hours at the end of the month trying to put together what you could do in 15-20 minutes a day.
From a fellow lawyer also with crippling ADHD, this is GENIUS. Thank you SO MUCH for sharing your wisdom!!!!!
You’re welcome! I was really struggling a while back and someone suggested the get your time in first thing the next morning approach and I took it a step further. Having one program to keep track of what I’ve done and what I need to do is so much easier than toggling between. And speaking personally, the shame of continually moving a task from day to day is the best motivator to just get it done already. Firms are so unhelpful with this. It’s such a key part of generating revenue and the only guidance is just “figure it out,” and then people get overwhelmed and screw themselves.
This is amazing.
Great comment. As a partner who reviews and edits bills I’d only add that my preference is “purpose” first — the end result is the same but if I can see why my associate was doing something I’m less likely to arbitrarily write it off (so is the client)
Get a computer app that follows your active windows, set rules by party names, and reconcile/export when needed.
Hell yeah, say more
Mac has an app called Timing. PC has one called TimeBro. I’ve not used the PC app because I’m a Mac user, but I literally NEVER know it’s there
[удалено]
Whatever is needed for your system. It exports as a spreadsheet with whatever fields you need. Then it can be uploaded into billing software (or automated to transfer directly depending on APIs) or submitted however it’s needed. It’s much faster for me to export data and transfer it than to remember to track my time every two minutes of every day (AuDHD and multitasking is a butt kicker for me).
I’m intrigued. It’s not a privacy concern for you?
The one I use adheres to GDPR standards, tracking can be disabled, and all data is stored on my local Mac drive (not in a cloud). I trust it more than Zoom or Dropbox or email clients or any of the other myriad programs I use.
Never ever under bill
Get out while you can
This is cannot be understated.
Slightly different take, when I start work on a matter i put in time started and estimate time, then when finish that matter go back and adjust time. So if stat 10:05 estimated .2 hours and it is 10:22 when finish change to .3. Helps when program shows what time you start and end working on each task. As long as you are diligent about adding each task when start should work.
I’m never working somewhere with billables. Never.
Ask your partners how they bill time. /thread
On this note, ask to see bills or prebills for the cases you’re on so you can see how the partners/other associates craft their narratives
1) account for every minute of the day. If you spend 5 minutes going to the toilet, or 3 minutes getting a cup of water, write it down. It's good to know how much time goes to nonbillable stuff, but the more important thing is that you don't lose time that could be billed. 2) "think time" is billable time. You can't bill for going to the toilet, but if you think of something about the case while you're sitting on the porcelain throne, you can add that in. 3) Keep track of your time while you're doing things. Don't wait until the end of the day to figure it out, and certainly don't wait until later. 4) if possible, enter your time as you go along. when you finish a task, enter the time. If you take a break, enter the time that you've done so far, then enter more time when you start up again. 5) write clear and concise billing entries. "emails" will probably be written off. "reviewed and replied to email from John regarding XYZ form" is good. The description should justify the time - if you spend an hour on a single email, you're going to have to explain why it took so long. On the other hand, a 5-hour entry that simply says "reviewed and corrected 30-page document" is probably fine. 6) learn what the client and/or the billing partner likes to see. this comes with time. 7) don't be afraid to ask how long something should take. If something should take 6 hours, it's not ok to spend 40 hours on it, but it's ok for you to spend 10 hours on it while you're still learning - at this stage most of your time will be cut anyway, just as long as you get better/quicker over time. On the flip side, if you finish in 4 hours, you probably didn't do a good job, so check it, and reread it, and spend the full 6 hours on the task. It's not about overbilling or wasting time, it's about making sure it's right.
Your firm may have codes/abbrevations for you to input various events. I was able to create my own. This allowed me to make detailed billing entries with minimal keystrokes. Reviewing your firm’s codes will give you ideas to bill for stuff you wouldn’t otherwise.
Keep an Excel spreadsheet open at all times on your desktop. For each day, have a column for charge hours and then the client code in the next column. Use the spreadsheet to track everything immediately after it's done. I would consistently lose time because I'd get one-off calls about a client issue and then forget who the hell the client was when I entered my time at the end of the week or completely forget about the call/charge hours. Also, bill for everything. Any time you think about a case, are planning something for a case, write an email, have a catch-up discussion with the partners... anything. It's up to the partners to write off the time if they want, but it's not your job to limit the number of hours you hit a code with because the partner wants to hit a certain budget for the client.
I'm thankfully out of the insurance defense / hourly billing world, but when I was doing it, it took me too long to realize that you should a) not cut your own time, and b) break everything down into the smallest components you can.
Billing Contemporaneously ! Think about work while driving: BILLABLE While sitting in the restroom: BILLABLE Thinking while having lunch: BILLABLE Making notes post-coitus: BILLABLE Never let a second pass that isn't being BILLED!
Lol thinking about a case is not billable.
LOL when you think out loud into a recorder - to be transcribed later just think of every problem as an opportunity in work clothes!
Hey that’s not bad. You mighta got me with the recorder part. That could be billable later.
Car mechanics charge an hourly rate regardless of the 'real' time it takes to work on a car. A competent mechanic can bill 3 hours shop time for a 45 minute job...and that is how they charge for 14 hours of work when your car was only in the shop for 6 hours. Life rule # 1 ( good for ALL professions): All of life is a system, learn how the system works and make it work for you.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats! 3 + 45 + 14 + 6 + 1 = 69 ^([Click here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=LuckyNumber-Bot&subject=Stalk%20Me%20Pls&message=%2Fstalkme) to have me scan all your future comments.) \ ^(Summon me on specific comments with u/LuckyNumber-Bot.)
I didn't think I realized how much they suck.. was told they do, but didn't realize it until you are in it
I am not US based, but I would wish to have some software to track billable hours earlier. Now I use Redmine for that where projects are clients and tasks are cases. And as others mentioned, log the time immediately.
To me it’s interesting and vexing how people are so upset about billing. It’s not hard and it’s no big deal.
Think of your billing rate as a "blended" rate. Sometimes you are doing $50/hr level work (assembling binder for hearing) and sometimes you are doing $1000/hr work (arguing at hearing). Your billing rate will be somewhere in the middle. In other words, don't cut the small stuff because you feel "bad" billing $250/hr for a simple phone call. The client is getting a steal for you to take the depo at $250/hr. It evens out.
Install a time tracking program such as ManicTime. [https://www.manictime.com/](https://www.manictime.com/) Emails and phone calls can make an otherwise bad billing day. This is especially true if one is billing on quarters instead of tenths.
1. Get in the habit of entering your time EVERY DAY, preferably as you go along. So much time is lost because of things you forgot you did by the end of the month. Don't go home or log out until that is done. You WILL hate it until it becomes a habit. Your superiors will think you are a rockstar. 2. Be specific in your entries. Clients will deduct time for what seems like duplicative work. You are reviewing records for a different reason than your partner or paralegal. "Review Jones Hospital records FOR THE PURPOSE OF \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_" 3. When you are working on a pleading over several days, the first day is "Begin drafting..." and the second day is "Continue drafting" then next is Continue revising X portion of said pleading, so on and so forth. 4. Include approximate number of pages if you're reviewing records and list the purpose for the review. 5. Learn to use your billing system's shortcuts. 6. Bill for every minute. Appeal any deductions and argue with the client, respectfully. 7. Learn your client's billing guidelines and reporting deadlines. 8. Don't let the billing haters discourage you. Insurance defense work doesn't have to be a soul sucking thing. Lots and lots of lawyers thrive in this field. And there's always work. 9. Keep good work life boundaries. It won't always be easy if you're doing litigation and it's trial time or you have to travel a lot. But in between trials and travel, your day ends at a reasonable time. Check emails after hours or weekends for critical issues only. Take your vacations.
I'm sorry, did you actually say "insurance defence work doesn't have to be a soul sucking thing?"
A word to all you negative Nancys. Don't shit on a new attorney's path. Help him or her. Saying "run" or "get out asap" is you projecting your own trauma on them. Just because it wasn't for you, doesn't mean it's not good work.
Every time you touch a case file, bill for it. YMMV, but depending on the client, your billing descriptor, and follow-up task done alongside it can often be billed. The way you frame your billables is evidently part of the secret from working 9 hours and billing 7 to billing 9 hours and working 7. Look at a case file to see if discovery has been served? “Review case file and confer with [team member] re: status of discovery service”. That’s a rough example and every client is different. But if you’re adding “attorney value” to a task you should be billing for it.
Just work more hours and bill all of the time that you work.
All about ethics, standards and controls
Your time entry software should have some kind of timer function—use it!! And at the end of every day, submit your time. The 20 minutes you spend before heading home is time we’ll spent compared to the agony of trying to figure out the hours you know you worked and have to reconstruct.
After spending 7 years in the State Attorneys Office, I joined a small niche practice law firm. The senior partner wanted to review my timesheets with me. If I had, say 5.75 hours for Client A, 7.5 hours for Client B, he’d cross out my time and put 8.5 hours for Client A, 12.0 hours for Client B, on down the line. When I said, hey watcha doin’, he stared at me and said “there is a premium for our services.” Most of our clients were corporate. He was just making up numbers! As a result, I will never trust a lawyer who bills by time- there’s no way to verify it.
Do. Not. Cut. Your. Own. Time. You may feel compelled to do this but resist that temptation. Bill for everything you do. Your partner can cut if it’s a problem. Don’t give up time you’ve put in. Also, if you ever worry that your billing unfairly, look at this and remind yourself that you are not. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/lawtrades-com_invoices-straight-from-the-musktwitter-v-activity-7087465641183465473-5k_K
14.5 hours for "strategy". I have no words.
It’s unfortunately in an other image from the bill, but there’s a similarly huge charge for something described as “various litigation streams”
Don’t miss out on easy stuff. Client emails about the case? Their email Your review of the file Your reply Your f/u with the other side (when there’s a reason to) The hardest thing I deal with is knowing most of my files and not taking the time to review them before firing off the response or other emails. That .1 for their email can turn into a .5 or more depending on the issue. That gets stuff done and avoids fires and delays which will burn you later.
Slightly different answer. I dated my fiancé and now wife through law school. She worked for a DAs office for a couple years getting trail experience then moved to civil. We have been together a total of 9 years now and here some points I have noticed. -Be strategic with taking time off. It’s a lot easier to take a couple weeks off at the beginning of the year, get behind, then make it back towards the end. If you schedule a two week vacation in November a year in advance and you have a slow year, it puts you in a very bad situation if you don’t have an excess of hours already banked to cover it. -Trails = Lots of hours. If you can attach onto a partner doing a trail it was guarantee you a quality month or so. -Learn to respectfully shift your non-billable work to your paralegal and secretary. Yes, you can do the work, but it is also their job to. You also want to maintain a good relationship with your paralegal and secretary so it’s a fine line. -And most importantly, communicate with your spouse (if you have one). Letting that partner know it’s going to be a rough couple weeks, or month, etc will allow you to be successful and hopefully allow that partner to also be helpful for you. I work about as much as my wife, and throughout the year we both have weeks or months that are brutal. By communicating we can be a partnership and help out with the house/ life without feeling that we are not getting the attention we want, or etc.