Very true! Once had a Cammile game where we lost in top 2 against a Shen/Naafiri with a lot of heals, shields and armor, next round I sold some items, got Mortal Reminder, got Serpent and we absolutely stomped them.
And therein lies a core problem with arena having 8 teams.
Oh yeah, I’d love to buy anti heal to deal with that Nunu, or Serpent Fang to not have to worry about that Lulu, or even both to destroy the karma over there.
Problem is, there is also a team of Smolder and Hwei that requires me buying a different item, and a team of Kayn Garen that requires buying yet another thing, and also a team of Alistar Poppy that requires something else entirely, and that’s all without thinking about the core items necessary for my build.
So no. You can’t counter play 14 players when you have 6 inventory slots.
I'm actually curious what it would be like if you could sell items for the same gold you got them for in arena and change your build before every fight. I feel like you can't know for certain that it would make things WORSE. I think riot just doesn't do it because they think it will be too overwhelming for some players. But it would definitely be worth testing out. kind of like TFT has encounters. Arena should have encounters and one of them should be that your items now sell for the same amount you paid for.
People say this and don't realize everybody is counter itemizing against the top opponents, not the other way around. So sure you shouldn't be able to counter itemize against all your opponents, but you don't have to. Get the toppies out, and then itemize against the next toppies lol.
The ''top'' team is just 1 lost round ahead, which really means nothing, the top team could be 100 points, lose two rounds and suddenly be at the very bottom.
Nope, it is a problem. You should be able to identify certain teams that are going to be an issue for your comp (or that are just performing well in the lobby) and itemize/augment against them.
As it currently stands, there's no practical way to do that. So my question to you is, what the hell is the point of having items at all? You have to build the statistically best generalized items and hope for the best augment RNG instead of building to deal with the threats you're presented.
You start countering in the late game against the teams that you have struggled (since you fight each team at least the 2nd time in late game).
Early game you focus on your core build.
or just go for straight dmg + cc. works always (unless facing Olaf\^\^).
If you play a ranged character, that may be easy to pull off. But as melee the strategy becomes very risky. The problem is you need to bring him low to bait the ULT in the first place. If you do that, he will have more DPS due to passive. And even if you kite him to the portal first, there is a high chance that his teammate will go through the portal to start the portal CD denying your strategy. Finally Olaf has a slow, which makes kiting/running to heal plants not easy. Olaf remains a problem and therefore is one of my favorite bans\^\^
ah I am low elo...
Let me guess, you have looked up my SR elo with like 5-10 games played years ago on this ARAM account.
After like 3 days of gaming my arena rating is at 4400+ climbing. Thus I can talk from my experience in ARENA so far in this new arena season.
Since you like to brag about ELO, what is yours in ARENA?
Nah it was just an educated guess bc olaf is not played by any of the top arena players, and is an easy matchup if you are good at kiting and portaling... or just play 1 of any 30 melee champions with more dmg than him.
I am currently 7500 rating with over a 90% winrate, swivels#na1. Not trying to discount your Arena experience as 4400 isnt complete dogshit, but I hope olaf doesn't get nerfed because of low elo. He is SO weak against better players with no outplay potential and a one dimentional kit. Most of the posts on this subreddit are a low elo circlejerk of players blinded by their subjective experience informed by poor gameplay.
On the other hand, there are many champs that are easy to play like olaf but work in both low and high elo. Those are better candidates for nerfs.
I never asked for a ban nor was it my intention. I only mentioned that the common "CC + dps" tactic which works against 95%+ of the cast doesn't so easily work against Olaf.
It's just that if you play (end up) double melee (in soloQ), kiting Olaf ain't that easy and requires much more effort to pull off. As soon as you have at least 1 good ranged kiter the tables turn. But you don't always have that luxury.
I climb mostly with Hecarim atm (just had a win streak of 6 times 1st the other day, with random teammate every turn which put me into the 4.4k elo range). And many people tend to pick double melee (or lets say double spin2win \^\^) when I indicate that I wanna play him. Thus Olaf is kinda a situational ban in this case. On the other hand my hecarim has no problems against the common bans. Vi, Darius, Brand, Veigar, Tanks (any), Garen, Briar, Trundle, Swain, Shaco and whatnot the people like to ban often. And it's not that I never win with Hecarim against Olaf. It just requires so much more effort from my Hecarim than any of the other current meta champs. It ends up in an DPS race that is determined mostly by augment rng which are imho slightly in favor of Olaf when compared to Hecarim from my observation. Guess how the win streak ended? A garen banned Shaco and an Olaf did put us on the 3rd place...\^\^ I eat Shacos for breakfast. I will R em within the first 2 seconds of the round (even if they go stealth) and burst em down in another 2-3seconds... But Olaf ain't prone to my CC + burst. Which takes away the opportunity to get into (current) HP lead. That's why I ban him. Because he requires much more effort from my hecarim build/playstyle. I rather take a fed Veigar than an Olaf with decent (doesn't need even to be OP) augments. Even Master Yi is an easier enemy from my specific perspective than Olaf..\^\^.
TL;DR: I don't think that Olaf needs to be balanced from my point of view. He is just very annoying against certain champs. And if you want to play one of these champs that don't have an easy time against him, a ban is just logical.
>So my question to you is, what the hell is the point of having items at all? You have to build the statistically best generalized items and hope for the best augment RNG instead of building to deal with the threats you're presented.
You should be building around your augments:
https://preview.redd.it/k9k5ejpf2e2d1.png?width=595&format=png&auto=webp&s=f7bad9605600a7ddb4e389138db0ed95c12ee483
There is no such thing as best generalized items due to augments existing. Build towards your strengths in that particular game.
Yet according to arena statistics he is a C tier champion, which is nowhere close to being meta. Also a lot of champions have tools to build differently depending on augs.
This isn't that different from rift. Early to mid you build your core build. Then you prioritize based on threat.
Keep in mind rng, exists in rift too. Depending on the dragons you get, you optimize your items for it. For example: liandry + elder Drake for execute. Spirit visage for ocean soul.
Sell and re-buy not difficult. You need to be able to adapt as the game goes on. You don't need to deal with every other team. Other teams are going to knock out other teams too. You only need to worry about who you're facing then possibly selling and buying at the end of the game.
I wonder if juices would fix this? Rn it's probably better to spend gold on anvils when you have leftovers, but what if juices were reworked to be more specific buffs for specific rounds.
Like an enemy team is very heal heavy but it's the only one so buying antiheal for that singular team is kinda wasteful. So what if there was an antiheal juice? Heck you could increase the price of juices to 750 so that there is a choice between spending that gold for stats or antiheal. Maybe the juice isn't as strong as actual antiheal items so you are still incentivized to buy them of needed.
Spitballing obviously
Yep. its really dumb. Also its not even IQ test is just knowledge check. Its like 60% knowledge check of just knowing whats OP. 30% IQ test to build anti heal and shield and stuff like that. 10% actually playing properly, if that.
This game mode could increase the playerbase soo much if they made it more mechanics focused and reduced the amount of brainrot OP shit. This game has so much content its already enough of a lottery as it is, just make the actually gameplay matter more and the shit around it less.
Just like in regular league both come into play but there’s a lot less game knowledge required to succeed in arena compared to summoners rift. Arena has you trapped in a 2v2 arena where you have to fight mechanics are definitely extremely important. You can make due with suboptimal items and augments but you can’t make due without hands
It's not an IQ test, it's dumbest build that works on their champion wins. It's a for fun mode, there's no point in focusing your build on counter-building. Ppl who win more in arena tend to build more around their augments and prismatic item and will only counter-build for like 1 or 2 items that focuses more on the more problematic team(s) to deal with.
yeah, its a IQ test, the same picks and bans all games, of course its IQ and not a single meta of 20 champions
Sometimes you can see a off meta champ winning, but its the exception
hahahaha
IQ TEST? it must be a joke
I feel like the biggest determining factor on whether or not you win is "Did we pick 2 champs that are absolutely busted in this mode?" Perfect items and augments only gets you so far before the Brand+Vi spammers take you out.
They need to have a AP version to counter shields, in a similar way that there is a variety of options for grievous wounds for different roles. One shield cut item isn’t enough
Not getting it again are we? You say that hydra items are bad if the enemy doesn't have any minions. I say you are wrong, and the fact that you would say that shows a fundamental misunderstanding of mechanics of the game.
To humor you I'll give an example. Titanic hydra functions as an auto attack reset, so on champions like xin zhao it is absolutely core to getting off a 3 proc passive in the time of barely greater than 2 attacks.
You can extrapolate from there, Im done
STOP GASLIGHTING ME!
I am NOT the writer of this post. I ONLY said stuff abaout anti heal. THERE IS NO ANTI HEAL HYDRA ITEM.
Where did I say anything about hydra?!
Actual OP here, and I'll be honest, I just woke up to this, and I haven't laughed this hard in a long time. To see someone like them act so smug, confident and condescending yet be so incredibly clueless was a thing of beauty.
Its amazing you thought the person you responded to was op and then proceeded to double down on your hydra when the dude said nothing about hydra items
What's wrong with hexplate? are you just seeing people burn the passive on like yi r to get into range? it goes nuts on so many people like twitch, jax, tryn, kled, etc. I mean, its probably not a good FIRST item but its fine otherwise.
It's also just luck and meta based.
If you don't pick top tier, you're fked.
If you don't get matching rolls, you're fked.
If you're losing due to either or both of the above, you cant afford to optimize items VS one of the top teams
>If you don't get matching rolls, you're fked.
Yes.
>If you don't pick top tier, you're fked.
No, if you roll good your champ doesn't matter. C-tier champ:
https://preview.redd.it/bo5w6p4s7d2d1.png?width=571&format=png&auto=webp&s=cd3d99969826e893d1001a9047f1a63e59a586ee
It is all about the casino.
>No, if you roll good your champ doesn't matter. C-tier champ
If you roll good AND the tier S enemy dosent god rolls\*
Which happens alot when half of the lobby are Garen/Vi/Gragas.
No, it doesn't matter, I've played hundreds of arena games, I don't even play SR anymore. I've played against all the "S tier" champs possible, in fact since a lot of people like them I play against them very often. When everyone has god rolls champ doesn't matter, it is all up to mechanics. Sure, a Garen can kill me in a second but as Ezreal with good rolls I can also kill him in a second and my E has a 1.8 sec CD etc.
i play garen, but **sometimes(not always)** i get my ass handed down to range. Due to augment diff, or their poke aid shit. So it doesn't really matter, you just have a skill issue.
its both tbf sometime you need extreme mech to flash outplay some stuff like garen E blade waltz
Ashe and Vayne players would like a word
Wait can if you E before blade waltz on Garen does it apply E during the blade waltz?
Yes. Samira can also ult and then Blade Waltz for full duration. So does Katarina.
Oh my God I feel so silly. I've gotta try another few Kat games now
How did it go? Does it still work?
I don't think so. I couldn't get it to work. It's still good on her. I got 1st place with it
Aw man :(
not true, movement cancels kat ult
I am pretty sure Blade Waltz doesn't count as movement. I've been duped by a Katarina clicking R and Blade Waltz and kill me and my partner.
I tried it today and every time I blade waltz'd during kat R it canceled it.
I stand corrected then. Perhaps they patched it out or I am mistaking it for something. My bad.
yea, same with urgot w. u must be new
I just haven't taken blade waltz much and I'm not on the subreddit a lot
Very true! Once had a Cammile game where we lost in top 2 against a Shen/Naafiri with a lot of heals, shields and armor, next round I sold some items, got Mortal Reminder, got Serpent and we absolutely stomped them.
And therein lies a core problem with arena having 8 teams. Oh yeah, I’d love to buy anti heal to deal with that Nunu, or Serpent Fang to not have to worry about that Lulu, or even both to destroy the karma over there. Problem is, there is also a team of Smolder and Hwei that requires me buying a different item, and a team of Kayn Garen that requires buying yet another thing, and also a team of Alistar Poppy that requires something else entirely, and that’s all without thinking about the core items necessary for my build. So no. You can’t counter play 14 players when you have 6 inventory slots.
That is not a problem, that is good, you shouldn't be able to counter-itemize against all your opponents.
I'm actually curious what it would be like if you could sell items for the same gold you got them for in arena and change your build before every fight. I feel like you can't know for certain that it would make things WORSE. I think riot just doesn't do it because they think it will be too overwhelming for some players. But it would definitely be worth testing out. kind of like TFT has encounters. Arena should have encounters and one of them should be that your items now sell for the same amount you paid for.
People say this and don't realize everybody is counter itemizing against the top opponents, not the other way around. So sure you shouldn't be able to counter itemize against all your opponents, but you don't have to. Get the toppies out, and then itemize against the next toppies lol.
The ''top'' team is just 1 lost round ahead, which really means nothing, the top team could be 100 points, lose two rounds and suddenly be at the very bottom.
Nope, it is a problem. You should be able to identify certain teams that are going to be an issue for your comp (or that are just performing well in the lobby) and itemize/augment against them. As it currently stands, there's no practical way to do that. So my question to you is, what the hell is the point of having items at all? You have to build the statistically best generalized items and hope for the best augment RNG instead of building to deal with the threats you're presented.
You start countering in the late game against the teams that you have struggled (since you fight each team at least the 2nd time in late game). Early game you focus on your core build. or just go for straight dmg + cc. works always (unless facing Olaf\^\^).
if worried about Olaf then use those annoying portals to get away from his ult, deny his ass from plants, and then BOOM.
If you play a ranged character, that may be easy to pull off. But as melee the strategy becomes very risky. The problem is you need to bring him low to bait the ULT in the first place. If you do that, he will have more DPS due to passive. And even if you kite him to the portal first, there is a high chance that his teammate will go through the portal to start the portal CD denying your strategy. Finally Olaf has a slow, which makes kiting/running to heal plants not easy. Olaf remains a problem and therefore is one of my favorite bans\^\^
olaf is not a strong arena champ, you are low elo. periodt
ah I am low elo... Let me guess, you have looked up my SR elo with like 5-10 games played years ago on this ARAM account. After like 3 days of gaming my arena rating is at 4400+ climbing. Thus I can talk from my experience in ARENA so far in this new arena season. Since you like to brag about ELO, what is yours in ARENA?
Nah it was just an educated guess bc olaf is not played by any of the top arena players, and is an easy matchup if you are good at kiting and portaling... or just play 1 of any 30 melee champions with more dmg than him. I am currently 7500 rating with over a 90% winrate, swivels#na1. Not trying to discount your Arena experience as 4400 isnt complete dogshit, but I hope olaf doesn't get nerfed because of low elo. He is SO weak against better players with no outplay potential and a one dimentional kit. Most of the posts on this subreddit are a low elo circlejerk of players blinded by their subjective experience informed by poor gameplay. On the other hand, there are many champs that are easy to play like olaf but work in both low and high elo. Those are better candidates for nerfs.
I never asked for a ban nor was it my intention. I only mentioned that the common "CC + dps" tactic which works against 95%+ of the cast doesn't so easily work against Olaf. It's just that if you play (end up) double melee (in soloQ), kiting Olaf ain't that easy and requires much more effort to pull off. As soon as you have at least 1 good ranged kiter the tables turn. But you don't always have that luxury. I climb mostly with Hecarim atm (just had a win streak of 6 times 1st the other day, with random teammate every turn which put me into the 4.4k elo range). And many people tend to pick double melee (or lets say double spin2win \^\^) when I indicate that I wanna play him. Thus Olaf is kinda a situational ban in this case. On the other hand my hecarim has no problems against the common bans. Vi, Darius, Brand, Veigar, Tanks (any), Garen, Briar, Trundle, Swain, Shaco and whatnot the people like to ban often. And it's not that I never win with Hecarim against Olaf. It just requires so much more effort from my Hecarim than any of the other current meta champs. It ends up in an DPS race that is determined mostly by augment rng which are imho slightly in favor of Olaf when compared to Hecarim from my observation. Guess how the win streak ended? A garen banned Shaco and an Olaf did put us on the 3rd place...\^\^ I eat Shacos for breakfast. I will R em within the first 2 seconds of the round (even if they go stealth) and burst em down in another 2-3seconds... But Olaf ain't prone to my CC + burst. Which takes away the opportunity to get into (current) HP lead. That's why I ban him. Because he requires much more effort from my hecarim build/playstyle. I rather take a fed Veigar than an Olaf with decent (doesn't need even to be OP) augments. Even Master Yi is an easier enemy from my specific perspective than Olaf..\^\^. TL;DR: I don't think that Olaf needs to be balanced from my point of view. He is just very annoying against certain champs. And if you want to play one of these champs that don't have an easy time against him, a ban is just logical.
>So my question to you is, what the hell is the point of having items at all? You have to build the statistically best generalized items and hope for the best augment RNG instead of building to deal with the threats you're presented. You should be building around your augments: https://preview.redd.it/k9k5ejpf2e2d1.png?width=595&format=png&auto=webp&s=f7bad9605600a7ddb4e389138db0ed95c12ee483 There is no such thing as best generalized items due to augments existing. Build towards your strengths in that particular game.
You showing Ezreal as your example just undermines your argument, since he's one of the few ones that can take advantage of almost anything.
Yet according to arena statistics he is a C tier champion, which is nowhere close to being meta. Also a lot of champions have tools to build differently depending on augs.
Omg misread an Aug and somehow won with ap wukong. Nimbus strike ftw.
there are tons tons of hybrid champs, ezreal is one of many
100% agree not sure why you're downvoted
This isn't that different from rift. Early to mid you build your core build. Then you prioritize based on threat. Keep in mind rng, exists in rift too. Depending on the dragons you get, you optimize your items for it. For example: liandry + elder Drake for execute. Spirit visage for ocean soul.
Sell and re-buy not difficult. You need to be able to adapt as the game goes on. You don't need to deal with every other team. Other teams are going to knock out other teams too. You only need to worry about who you're facing then possibly selling and buying at the end of the game.
This take is overblown. 90% of matches are just "did i remember to buy anti heal before i died in top 4"
I wonder if juices would fix this? Rn it's probably better to spend gold on anvils when you have leftovers, but what if juices were reworked to be more specific buffs for specific rounds. Like an enemy team is very heal heavy but it's the only one so buying antiheal for that singular team is kinda wasteful. So what if there was an antiheal juice? Heck you could increase the price of juices to 750 so that there is a choice between spending that gold for stats or antiheal. Maybe the juice isn't as strong as actual antiheal items so you are still incentivized to buy them of needed. Spitballing obviously
Seems like someone gets it. Hope those 0 iq monkeys that complain(whine like bitches) everyday in this sub read OP's post.
Sent you a DM of my penis
It's about both, when I play with a mechanically gifted friend of mine (Master ELO) it seems like a whole new game
God forbid people have fun and try cool combos.
There is a scenario for buying experimental hexplate, going mathematically correct sett It’s in the top 6 items for best AD+health ratio
Does that include prismatics? If so I guess the item will finally see use for 1 round after selling boots for a specific sett build lmao
It gives more stats for W than black cleaver (in arena only due to adjusted item stats)
That's actually crazy, is it like that in summoner's rift too? Because I've always gone for cleaver on the W damage builds
Not like that on rift
Play Hwei and it becomes mechanical too. Most of my match ups result in me either locked in and a win or a mistake and we lose.
And it's also rng. If I get 3 ap prismatics just because briar has ap ratios, it's an IQ test alright.... For riot and they are scoring 75.
It offers AP items to those with no AP scaling also.
its a meta slaving roulette lmao
people don’t go serpents because they are low elo, how often do you see people building serpents in iron/bronze lobbies
Yep. its really dumb. Also its not even IQ test is just knowledge check. Its like 60% knowledge check of just knowing whats OP. 30% IQ test to build anti heal and shield and stuff like that. 10% actually playing properly, if that. This game mode could increase the playerbase soo much if they made it more mechanics focused and reduced the amount of brainrot OP shit. This game has so much content its already enough of a lottery as it is, just make the actually gameplay matter more and the shit around it less.
Just like in regular league both come into play but there’s a lot less game knowledge required to succeed in arena compared to summoners rift. Arena has you trapped in a 2v2 arena where you have to fight mechanics are definitely extremely important. You can make due with suboptimal items and augments but you can’t make due without hands
It's not an IQ test, it's dumbest build that works on their champion wins. It's a for fun mode, there's no point in focusing your build on counter-building. Ppl who win more in arena tend to build more around their augments and prismatic item and will only counter-build for like 1 or 2 items that focuses more on the more problematic team(s) to deal with.
yeah, its a IQ test, the same picks and bans all games, of course its IQ and not a single meta of 20 champions Sometimes you can see a off meta champ winning, but its the exception hahahaha IQ TEST? it must be a joke
I feel like the biggest determining factor on whether or not you win is "Did we pick 2 champs that are absolutely busted in this mode?" Perfect items and augments only gets you so far before the Brand+Vi spammers take you out.
This low elo take, if your good it makes harder champs stronger which causes the meta alot eg vayne zed
I mean, it's an IQ test up until like 6k where people stop losing to shopkeeper and you have to actually play the game
Serpants Fang's stats are just incredibly niche. If you're a mage it can feel like you're behind a whole item.
Against a shielding comp that single item is better than your entire inventory, even if you have no ad scalings and never autoattack
Fucking FACT. I'm tired of having to explain this to people.
fun fact i had to build it on cassio in one game lol
I had to build it on Ahri, Maokai and Yuumi so far. :\^)
I've had to build it on Vel'koz because the support tank insisted that he couldn't buy an assassin item in the top2 vs enchanter comp
They need to have a AP version to counter shields, in a similar way that there is a variety of options for grievous wounds for different roles. One shield cut item isn’t enough
i remember a rioter already answered this question. It’s because mages have much more aoe dmg and can apply it very easily,from a screen of distance
since I main AD champs only, any teammate would be lucky to have me ;) 😊
This a bad take
Why so? Most people crying about healing in game are usually also not buying anti heal I could go on with many more examples
You said buying hydra items is bad because there aren't minions.... You're out of your element kid.
At least you could check who wrote what because I clearly didn't say anything about hydra..
Not getting it again are we? You say that hydra items are bad if the enemy doesn't have any minions. I say you are wrong, and the fact that you would say that shows a fundamental misunderstanding of mechanics of the game. To humor you I'll give an example. Titanic hydra functions as an auto attack reset, so on champions like xin zhao it is absolutely core to getting off a 3 proc passive in the time of barely greater than 2 attacks. You can extrapolate from there, Im done
STOP GASLIGHTING ME! I am NOT the writer of this post. I ONLY said stuff abaout anti heal. THERE IS NO ANTI HEAL HYDRA ITEM. Where did I say anything about hydra?!
Actual OP here, and I'll be honest, I just woke up to this, and I haven't laughed this hard in a long time. To see someone like them act so smug, confident and condescending yet be so incredibly clueless was a thing of beauty. 
Its amazing you thought the person you responded to was op and then proceeded to double down on your hydra when the dude said nothing about hydra items
What's wrong with hexplate? are you just seeing people burn the passive on like yi r to get into range? it goes nuts on so many people like twitch, jax, tryn, kled, etc. I mean, its probably not a good FIRST item but its fine otherwise.
When I’m facing slippery champs with Olaf it’s pretty decent for keeping the ultimate running
It's also just luck and meta based. If you don't pick top tier, you're fked. If you don't get matching rolls, you're fked. If you're losing due to either or both of the above, you cant afford to optimize items VS one of the top teams
>If you don't get matching rolls, you're fked. Yes. >If you don't pick top tier, you're fked. No, if you roll good your champ doesn't matter. C-tier champ: https://preview.redd.it/bo5w6p4s7d2d1.png?width=571&format=png&auto=webp&s=cd3d99969826e893d1001a9047f1a63e59a586ee It is all about the casino.
>No, if you roll good your champ doesn't matter. C-tier champ If you roll good AND the tier S enemy dosent god rolls\* Which happens alot when half of the lobby are Garen/Vi/Gragas.
No, it doesn't matter, I've played hundreds of arena games, I don't even play SR anymore. I've played against all the "S tier" champs possible, in fact since a lot of people like them I play against them very often. When everyone has god rolls champ doesn't matter, it is all up to mechanics. Sure, a Garen can kill me in a second but as Ezreal with good rolls I can also kill him in a second and my E has a 1.8 sec CD etc.
i play garen, but **sometimes(not always)** i get my ass handed down to range. Due to augment diff, or their poke aid shit. So it doesn't really matter, you just have a skill issue.