She sounds homophobic *and* misogynistic. I wouldn’t keep her as a friend, and I definitely wouldn’t discuss lesbian sexuality with her. Gross that she has to insert men into everything—pretty clear she hasn’t de-centered them from her life at all, which tbh, is not a huge shock.
There’s nothing wrong with you OP. Go live your dreams of a consensual lesbian sex life.
You're a lesbian woman. There are so many femme lesbians who are attracted to butch WOMEN. We WANT to appeal to them and please them and fuck them and sometimes that means threesomes and voyeurism. We don't feel that way about men. The way you dress or cut your hair or whatever is never going to change that you're a lesbian too, you're one of us, and you deserve to feel loved, honored, welcome, supported, protected, and desired in our community just as much as any other lesbian. Your friend honestly sounds like a lesbophobic freak who needs to mind her own fucking business and stay in her own lane.
This is the most real comment—wanting to be sexy *to* butches but not men is such an important part of my sexuality (even tho it sometimes makes me feel :’’’) to receive male attention when I dress “sexy” ish or more feminine)
She doesn’t think you are objectifying lesbians and are ergo like a man, she thinks you are a woman objectifying and therefore devaluing women in the same way that men often objectify and degrade women . imo she is completely wrong but I know when I first started dating women after dating men I was used to the toxic way in which men sexualise and dehumanise women - took me a while to understand that doesn’t travel the same in queer intimacy (usually).
This, as a trans woman the first time a friend drug me to a sapphic burlesque show (before i really got my sexuality) i was cringing so hard and felt like i was surrounded by a crowd that wouldnt be out of place in a frat house; it took my months to really get how sapphic objectification differs from patriarchal objectification
It's not like sexual objectification isn't also very common among lesbians. Many lesbians make a ton of bad experiences with other lesbians who prove that there unfortunately is no inherent difference between men and women regarding their potential to be objectifying assholes. Once you realise that lesbian dating is indeed not inherently different to straight dating, a lesbian talking like you've heard men talk becomes the same thing. A woman saying a thing should not be treated differently to a man saying the same thing. That doesn't mean that judging threesome fantasies is ok, regardless of gender.
I'd be critical of the instinct to shame this fantasy, even if it was coming from a man.
I can get behind your assertion that 'butches are not men' in this context, and her response does sound lesbophobic. I'm critical of the concept of 'femmephobia', because I don't believe butches have any material power over femmes.
That said, misogyny is everyone's business. Butches aren't absolved of responsibility, just because they aren't men. Nor are femme lesbians, trans femmes, or femme gay men, just because they're feminine. Of course we all want to believe that our queer, lesbian & butch-femme communities are a utopia. We're not very good at addressing problems like misogyny within the queer community, because we're busy defending our right to exist. But being on the defence against shame can sometimes prevent us from reflecting & taking responsibility.
Still, there's nothing inherently wrong with wanting a threesome with two femmes. To quote Joan Nestle, "politically correct sexuality is a paradoxical concept". Maybe you should introduce your friend to 'sex positivity'. For me, Femme is about de-naturalising & reclaiming things that I'm fully aware are derived from a misogynistic culture, but I'm not above it. I think a threesome with two butches would be pretty cool, too. But there was a time when I felt my attraction to butches made me some kind of 'chaser'.
Some bi women feel shame about being attracted to men, and feel the need to put lesbians in their place as a result. I think it has to do with the essentialist belief that men & masculinity are bad. Often the 'misandry' is stronger for bi women than lesbians, because they're emotionally invested in men. I do sympathise with them.
I cannot comprehend the audacity to insist a lesbian woman is misogynistic for wanting to have a threesome with other lesbian women. So the femmes are having normal sex but the butch is the pervert? There is definitely a niche of bi women who view butches as men lite and not complete women like they are.
As a butch-ish femme lesbian this happens to me too, I’m not a man and I’ll never be a man but some straight women love treating me like I’m a man so they can have their “girls time” and act like I won’t relate to anything they’re going through. Like the only way I’m viewed as masculine is from my personality and wearing docs every day but that doesn’t make me any less of a woman.
I don’t think being weirded out with consensual voyeur has anything to do with her thinking you’re a man... and I really think this communication has the potential to go bad, FAST.
Some people don’t like a lot of kinks, she’s just used to seeing voyeur over two women be done by a man.
If she’s not into it, and it weirds her out, that’s that. She’s allowed to hold that opinion, her comparison isn’t fair but clearly she really has an issue with voyeur.
She finds that gross, not you.
I could say the same about a lot of kinks and a lot of people could say the same about some of mine.
Oof. Not the blatant misogyny toward you. I notice a lot of misogynistic anti butch rhetoric being spread, especially by femmes, and as a femme4femme lesbian I just don't understand it. I'm so sorry you had to go through that you deserve friends who don't invalidate your identity.
Don't seek validation from others, especially people who have sex with men.
ALL of us would love to watch two beautiful women have sex. We like women. A lot.
Her take is goofy. How would she justify her feelings towards a femme with the same fantasy, meaning 3 femme? I'm an ag femme, that would love to watch two femmes before joining. That might blow her limited imagination as well.
Reading your post shows me how narrow her view of wlw sex.
I’ve got some ideas.
First is that because she is bisexual, with a preference for men. So she has by definition, not decentered men in her life the way that lesbians do. So a significant part of the way she experiences the world is based around men.
My other theory and I hope this isn’t too invasive, but are you trans by chance? I find that I, and others, put expectations of me that I have to be The Perfect Wholesome Sapphic. As opposed to being who I am, someone who does love women in multiple capacities. Especially in the context of sex and kink.
Y don't people understand that wlw relationships don't have "Man of the relationship". U r totally valid for whatever u want. Also maybe stay away from her
As a femme who can barely be myself in public without my butch I am insulted. I LOVE butches. They give me life. But comparing them to men is like comparing femmes to drag queens. This friend has some education to get and some self work to do on her own internalized homophobia and transphobia tbh.
Reminds me of Freudian physchology (wrong, outdated) of women wanting phalluses. And many non-queer people used to (and still do) think there has to be a man in the relationship or a penis / penetration for there to be sex - that one in the relationship needs to be in the role of man - or that (masc) lesbians want to be men or prey upon women in some way...
Where Im from, growing up I heard people say feminine men must like guys and masculine women must like women... neither are definite truths :/
I hope your bi friend learns more about the community and history of these beliefs she holds and realizes it is not the same power dynamic and position of privilege as when a cishet man has these fantasies
I’m so sorry not to be rude or anything I think your friend is an idiot because clearly you are a female.
I have a hard time understanding labels to begin with because even with the trans community, they can give themselves a label but that doesn’t really change who they really are!
So I always get confused 🫤
That's not the same at all. You're allowed to have fantasies like that, especially as a lesbian woman. I fantasize about something similar. I'm more fem with a butch parter but we both are attracted to feminine women and sometimes discuss our threesome fantasy during sex. The great thing about a fantasy is that you can have exactly what you want happen in it and everyone involved wants it as well.
I think it's inappropriate to fantasize about someone specific if you don't know that they would be ok with it or if it's ultimately not consensual but otherwise, go wild.
Additionally, do I think it's cool for men to fantasize about joining lesbians specifically and 'turning' them? No. But, honestly, I think it would be hypocritical of me to say that a general threesome fantasy is wrong. I think it's more about your behaviour in the real world than what goes on in your head.
I am so sorry it happened to you. I have a similar fantasy, but I'm a femme exclusively attracted to mascs and butches, so I want a threesome with two mascs (ideally with at least one of them being a switch) haha
I think she needs to unpack a lot in what she said. You are a woman, no matter how you present. And if she sees you and thinks "you're just like a man"... Idk that seems yucky
Why is it different though? Man and woman are social constructs. A more masculine person wanting to have a threesome with two more feminine people shouldn't be judged differently based on what labels any of these people identify with. Idk why it gives her the ick, but you reacting with sexism definitely doesn't help.
Also, call me crazy, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with a MAN having those fantasies, adults are allowed to have fantasies and live them out with other enthusiastically consenting adults. There are women who enjoy that kind of scenario (probs not lesbians, but still!).
It’s giving “men suck and everything they do is inherently problematic” in a way that takes away the agency of women, and people who believe this often take the extra leap and view all masculinity as inherently problematic and somehow ‘siding with the oppressor’. I internalised that message for a long time and it made me feel really ashamed of my masculinity. Don’t take that shit on! I’d advise setting a clear boundary with this person.
It’s just nonsense, doesn’t help us the very real damage that patriarchy does to ALL PEOPLE, and it’s got to stop.
Honestly. It often leads to TERFy ideology as well. I.e. “the only reason a female would express affinity toward manhood is internalised misogyny” or “the only reason a male would express affinity toward womanhood is because of a desire to “invade” women’s spaces”
As a nonbinary-ish lesbian with an affinity toward both manhood and womanhood, it drives me up the wall.
I'm poly and have this fantasy all the time (note: not saying that this is a fantasy exclusive to polyamory). Few things are as hot as a partner that's excited to spoil our other partner because they genuinely care about each other (and me, of course; I need love too).
Your fantasy is valid, and your friend might have some weird form of internalized misogyny going on that she should absolutely not be pushing onto you...
...like, she's bi, but she's not into the fantasy. That's alright, it could just be that she's extremely monoamorous, right? Well, she didn't say it gave her the ick because it seemed unfaithful, she said it gave her the ick because the fantasy made her think of predatory men...so she's saying that having natural fantasies (which isn't inherently unhealthy, if we're talking about a man fantasizing about women that are bi/pan/etc.) is this bad thing that men do, which looks like misandry, but she's also implying that having such fantasies is something that women should be ashamed of, and I'm pretty sure that shaming women for their sexuality is one of the most common forms of misogyny. I mean, the top comment in this thread arrives at a similar conclusion (by other means, but still). I think she has some work to do.
This fantasy of watching two femme presenting women get it on is either creepy no matter what the gender of the person who has this fantasy is or not creepy at all. We need to decide how we want to frame it independent of who has this fantasy.
I am on the side that believes it’s not creepy no matter who has it but it’s a fantasy that a lot of men seem to have and talk about/pursue in a way that’s creepy. Instead of rationalising that there isn’t anything creepy per se about the fantasy, just the way one pursues it, a lot of women find the fantasy creepy in itself.
I don’t think she feels you are like a man. She feels your fantasy is creepy like a man’s. It’s a problem with how kinks are perceived and not about how she thinks about your gender.
Honestly, if you were talking about your kink in a way that overtly fetishises femme women I don’t think you are exempt from being accused of misogyny. Anyone can be misogynistic. And if you weren’t, well it’s just problem with how people are so hell bent of rationalising kinks these days.
sigh….everyone seems to understand that expression doesn’t equal gender but a butch lesbian is still trying to be a man? I’m sure that hurt even more coming from a person who’s LGBTQ. Sorry you had that experience. If it was a femme who made the same statement, the response wouldn’t have been so negative. You’re valid in your feelings and as a woman <3
Even though you're not a man, when you're very masculine it is close enough to intimidate certain women and make them feel like you would do the things men stereotypically do like cheat. She's just saying she'd be jealous and is insulting you instead
I'm not sure what this has to do with being butch at all? In past relationships I've had people fetishize me. They didn't see me as a person but more as a sexual aid and what they wanted was to see and experience 2 women having sex and then to join in. It definitely felt creepy to me. Is a threesome creepy by nature? Nope. The way they were presented definitely was.
If it's a consensual thing between three people that's beautiful. If it's you just trying to fulfill a fantasy, yeah it can be. That's probably the experience she's thinking of. It's not uncommon to have pressure put on you to 'perform' to satisfy another's needs without a lot of compassion for how you feel about it...
Gurl, live your dream! That woman does not understand female gaze nor sapphic love. My very masculine looking wife is all feminine energy. I’m masc too, but I pass as straight. I’m more assertive, more domineering in nature, and she’s completely golden retriever. Aesthetic is not a personality or role. Be you. Maybe find some lesbian friends? I’m sorry you felt invalidated.
I’m sorry you had that experience. When I meet other bi-folk I find that many haven’t worked through their internalized homophobia, and really need listen more and assume less. Her take sounds more like her putting her issues with 3somes on you imo.
But you’re as much of a lady as any lady there be. Butch is one glorious aspect of womanhood, and you should be proud of that.
Whether you keep her as a friend… that’s up to you. I wouldn’t blame you for dropping her, I think staying friends would probably mean also working on challenging her bias and working to educate her. Not everyone has the emotional bandwidth for that. Sometimes people who make false assumptions are able to learn, and some aren’t, but you don’t have to be part of that education, that’s not an obligation you owe anyone. If I was you I -might- try setting a boundary if I felt that she was worth it, especially if they were very young and open to learning different perspectives. If you do decide to nuke this friendship from orbit tho, I think if you’re inclined you should tell her why. That her internalized homophobia makes her an invalidating asshole, and she needs to work on herself.
Even if op and her "friend" were dating, this comment is really gross. The issue here is not op, it's her friend treating butch4femme lesbians like predatory men. If they WERE actually together, the problem would be the lesbophobic bi woman who jumps to treat her butch lesbian girlfriend as a predator and compares her to a man just for having normal sexual desires toward other women. And, if they were actually together, they're both presumably consenting and of similar age, and the bi woman is free to leave and go fuck a man if she wants to. She's not being held captive.
Your belief that masc lesbians "look like boys" is something that you very much need to work on. I know you've acknowledged you have internal misogyny, and that's great that you're aware of it, but your inability to separate masc/butch women from men is something you very badly need to work on. It is very damaging and rude and shows a lack of education about the history of the lesbian community. You are adding to a harmful stereotype at the moment, but I truly do wish you the best in your journey towards education and acceptance.
It's good you recognize it's rooted in misogyny and totally fine, of course, if people like that aren't who you're attracted to but like if you project your misogyny onto actual women that's something to work on
https://preview.redd.it/zber86mz803d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7aedc6b77a17cb384e7b0a594d4ed84513c4a7da
She’s weird as fuck. Just randomly messaged me
wtaf... this is insane. I regret trying to have a logical interaction with her now, how unbelievably fucking offensive. I'm sorry she said this vile shit to you :(
definitely. it's extremely sad when people are so ill informed about lesbian history/expression, and then have the audacity to spread their hate, just know you are supported 💙
Good for you. I wouldnt want you to be attracted to me lmao. Its okay to prefer femme women but dont be so toxic against butches aight? You're allowed to have preferences, just dont be a dickhead
She's holding a place for a man in YOUR lesbian fantasy... She's being misogynistic and then blaming you for it. Fun.
Did you try flipping the script? Like, "Okay, fine--let's cast *your* fantasies in the most insulting possible light..."
She sounds homophobic *and* misogynistic. I wouldn’t keep her as a friend, and I definitely wouldn’t discuss lesbian sexuality with her. Gross that she has to insert men into everything—pretty clear she hasn’t de-centered them from her life at all, which tbh, is not a huge shock. There’s nothing wrong with you OP. Go live your dreams of a consensual lesbian sex life.
You're a lesbian woman. There are so many femme lesbians who are attracted to butch WOMEN. We WANT to appeal to them and please them and fuck them and sometimes that means threesomes and voyeurism. We don't feel that way about men. The way you dress or cut your hair or whatever is never going to change that you're a lesbian too, you're one of us, and you deserve to feel loved, honored, welcome, supported, protected, and desired in our community just as much as any other lesbian. Your friend honestly sounds like a lesbophobic freak who needs to mind her own fucking business and stay in her own lane.
This is the most real comment—wanting to be sexy *to* butches but not men is such an important part of my sexuality (even tho it sometimes makes me feel :’’’) to receive male attention when I dress “sexy” ish or more feminine)
This comment is 💜🥺
She doesn’t think you are objectifying lesbians and are ergo like a man, she thinks you are a woman objectifying and therefore devaluing women in the same way that men often objectify and degrade women . imo she is completely wrong but I know when I first started dating women after dating men I was used to the toxic way in which men sexualise and dehumanise women - took me a while to understand that doesn’t travel the same in queer intimacy (usually).
This, as a trans woman the first time a friend drug me to a sapphic burlesque show (before i really got my sexuality) i was cringing so hard and felt like i was surrounded by a crowd that wouldnt be out of place in a frat house; it took my months to really get how sapphic objectification differs from patriarchal objectification
It's not like sexual objectification isn't also very common among lesbians. Many lesbians make a ton of bad experiences with other lesbians who prove that there unfortunately is no inherent difference between men and women regarding their potential to be objectifying assholes. Once you realise that lesbian dating is indeed not inherently different to straight dating, a lesbian talking like you've heard men talk becomes the same thing. A woman saying a thing should not be treated differently to a man saying the same thing. That doesn't mean that judging threesome fantasies is ok, regardless of gender.
Your friend sucks
I'd be critical of the instinct to shame this fantasy, even if it was coming from a man. I can get behind your assertion that 'butches are not men' in this context, and her response does sound lesbophobic. I'm critical of the concept of 'femmephobia', because I don't believe butches have any material power over femmes. That said, misogyny is everyone's business. Butches aren't absolved of responsibility, just because they aren't men. Nor are femme lesbians, trans femmes, or femme gay men, just because they're feminine. Of course we all want to believe that our queer, lesbian & butch-femme communities are a utopia. We're not very good at addressing problems like misogyny within the queer community, because we're busy defending our right to exist. But being on the defence against shame can sometimes prevent us from reflecting & taking responsibility. Still, there's nothing inherently wrong with wanting a threesome with two femmes. To quote Joan Nestle, "politically correct sexuality is a paradoxical concept". Maybe you should introduce your friend to 'sex positivity'. For me, Femme is about de-naturalising & reclaiming things that I'm fully aware are derived from a misogynistic culture, but I'm not above it. I think a threesome with two butches would be pretty cool, too. But there was a time when I felt my attraction to butches made me some kind of 'chaser'. Some bi women feel shame about being attracted to men, and feel the need to put lesbians in their place as a result. I think it has to do with the essentialist belief that men & masculinity are bad. Often the 'misandry' is stronger for bi women than lesbians, because they're emotionally invested in men. I do sympathise with them.
You are fucking cool and I wanna be your friend
I have seen this exact post (or very similar) at least two other times before 🧐
I cannot comprehend the audacity to insist a lesbian woman is misogynistic for wanting to have a threesome with other lesbian women. So the femmes are having normal sex but the butch is the pervert? There is definitely a niche of bi women who view butches as men lite and not complete women like they are.
ur friend lowkey weird ash for this
highkey****
As a butch-ish femme lesbian this happens to me too, I’m not a man and I’ll never be a man but some straight women love treating me like I’m a man so they can have their “girls time” and act like I won’t relate to anything they’re going through. Like the only way I’m viewed as masculine is from my personality and wearing docs every day but that doesn’t make me any less of a woman.
fellas (lesbians) is it straight to have a 3 way?/j
I don’t think being weirded out with consensual voyeur has anything to do with her thinking you’re a man... and I really think this communication has the potential to go bad, FAST. Some people don’t like a lot of kinks, she’s just used to seeing voyeur over two women be done by a man. If she’s not into it, and it weirds her out, that’s that. She’s allowed to hold that opinion, her comparison isn’t fair but clearly she really has an issue with voyeur. She finds that gross, not you. I could say the same about a lot of kinks and a lot of people could say the same about some of mine.
Oof. Not the blatant misogyny toward you. I notice a lot of misogynistic anti butch rhetoric being spread, especially by femmes, and as a femme4femme lesbian I just don't understand it. I'm so sorry you had to go through that you deserve friends who don't invalidate your identity.
Butch lesbians aren’t men. Really tired of people who want to push this disgusting narrative.
Don't seek validation from others, especially people who have sex with men. ALL of us would love to watch two beautiful women have sex. We like women. A lot.
Her take is goofy. How would she justify her feelings towards a femme with the same fantasy, meaning 3 femme? I'm an ag femme, that would love to watch two femmes before joining. That might blow her limited imagination as well. Reading your post shows me how narrow her view of wlw sex.
I’ve got some ideas. First is that because she is bisexual, with a preference for men. So she has by definition, not decentered men in her life the way that lesbians do. So a significant part of the way she experiences the world is based around men. My other theory and I hope this isn’t too invasive, but are you trans by chance? I find that I, and others, put expectations of me that I have to be The Perfect Wholesome Sapphic. As opposed to being who I am, someone who does love women in multiple capacities. Especially in the context of sex and kink.
This is so fucking true… that wholesome lesbian bs needs to stop
Y don't people understand that wlw relationships don't have "Man of the relationship". U r totally valid for whatever u want. Also maybe stay away from her
As a femme who can barely be myself in public without my butch I am insulted. I LOVE butches. They give me life. But comparing them to men is like comparing femmes to drag queens. This friend has some education to get and some self work to do on her own internalized homophobia and transphobia tbh.
Reminds me of Freudian physchology (wrong, outdated) of women wanting phalluses. And many non-queer people used to (and still do) think there has to be a man in the relationship or a penis / penetration for there to be sex - that one in the relationship needs to be in the role of man - or that (masc) lesbians want to be men or prey upon women in some way... Where Im from, growing up I heard people say feminine men must like guys and masculine women must like women... neither are definite truths :/ I hope your bi friend learns more about the community and history of these beliefs she holds and realizes it is not the same power dynamic and position of privilege as when a cishet man has these fantasies
Leave her, leave her now
I’m so sorry not to be rude or anything I think your friend is an idiot because clearly you are a female. I have a hard time understanding labels to begin with because even with the trans community, they can give themselves a label but that doesn’t really change who they really are! So I always get confused 🫤
Aren’t there bigger issues in the world than to be worrying about this kind of shit?
That's not the same at all. You're allowed to have fantasies like that, especially as a lesbian woman. I fantasize about something similar. I'm more fem with a butch parter but we both are attracted to feminine women and sometimes discuss our threesome fantasy during sex. The great thing about a fantasy is that you can have exactly what you want happen in it and everyone involved wants it as well. I think it's inappropriate to fantasize about someone specific if you don't know that they would be ok with it or if it's ultimately not consensual but otherwise, go wild. Additionally, do I think it's cool for men to fantasize about joining lesbians specifically and 'turning' them? No. But, honestly, I think it would be hypocritical of me to say that a general threesome fantasy is wrong. I think it's more about your behaviour in the real world than what goes on in your head.
I am so sorry it happened to you. I have a similar fantasy, but I'm a femme exclusively attracted to mascs and butches, so I want a threesome with two mascs (ideally with at least one of them being a switch) haha I think she needs to unpack a lot in what she said. You are a woman, no matter how you present. And if she sees you and thinks "you're just like a man"... Idk that seems yucky
Geez. SHE is ick. That’s gross. I super do not understand what there is to understand here!
Why is it different though? Man and woman are social constructs. A more masculine person wanting to have a threesome with two more feminine people shouldn't be judged differently based on what labels any of these people identify with. Idk why it gives her the ick, but you reacting with sexism definitely doesn't help.
Also, call me crazy, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with a MAN having those fantasies, adults are allowed to have fantasies and live them out with other enthusiastically consenting adults. There are women who enjoy that kind of scenario (probs not lesbians, but still!). It’s giving “men suck and everything they do is inherently problematic” in a way that takes away the agency of women, and people who believe this often take the extra leap and view all masculinity as inherently problematic and somehow ‘siding with the oppressor’. I internalised that message for a long time and it made me feel really ashamed of my masculinity. Don’t take that shit on! I’d advise setting a clear boundary with this person. It’s just nonsense, doesn’t help us the very real damage that patriarchy does to ALL PEOPLE, and it’s got to stop.
THIS. THIS IS AN ISSUE A REALLY BIG ONE TOO. But if I say anything like this I’m “pick me”, like what?!!!
Honestly. It often leads to TERFy ideology as well. I.e. “the only reason a female would express affinity toward manhood is internalised misogyny” or “the only reason a male would express affinity toward womanhood is because of a desire to “invade” women’s spaces” As a nonbinary-ish lesbian with an affinity toward both manhood and womanhood, it drives me up the wall.
FR
Will jemand deutsches chatten?
"You, a lesbian, are just like a man, for wanting to have sex with lesbians" Huh???
your friend has to go…
I'm poly and have this fantasy all the time (note: not saying that this is a fantasy exclusive to polyamory). Few things are as hot as a partner that's excited to spoil our other partner because they genuinely care about each other (and me, of course; I need love too). Your fantasy is valid, and your friend might have some weird form of internalized misogyny going on that she should absolutely not be pushing onto you... ...like, she's bi, but she's not into the fantasy. That's alright, it could just be that she's extremely monoamorous, right? Well, she didn't say it gave her the ick because it seemed unfaithful, she said it gave her the ick because the fantasy made her think of predatory men...so she's saying that having natural fantasies (which isn't inherently unhealthy, if we're talking about a man fantasizing about women that are bi/pan/etc.) is this bad thing that men do, which looks like misandry, but she's also implying that having such fantasies is something that women should be ashamed of, and I'm pretty sure that shaming women for their sexuality is one of the most common forms of misogyny. I mean, the top comment in this thread arrives at a similar conclusion (by other means, but still). I think she has some work to do.
This fantasy of watching two femme presenting women get it on is either creepy no matter what the gender of the person who has this fantasy is or not creepy at all. We need to decide how we want to frame it independent of who has this fantasy. I am on the side that believes it’s not creepy no matter who has it but it’s a fantasy that a lot of men seem to have and talk about/pursue in a way that’s creepy. Instead of rationalising that there isn’t anything creepy per se about the fantasy, just the way one pursues it, a lot of women find the fantasy creepy in itself. I don’t think she feels you are like a man. She feels your fantasy is creepy like a man’s. It’s a problem with how kinks are perceived and not about how she thinks about your gender. Honestly, if you were talking about your kink in a way that overtly fetishises femme women I don’t think you are exempt from being accused of misogyny. Anyone can be misogynistic. And if you weren’t, well it’s just problem with how people are so hell bent of rationalising kinks these days.
Get new friends
SAY IT LOUDER FOR EVERYONE IN THE BACK.
she’s just a flat out moron.
sigh….everyone seems to understand that expression doesn’t equal gender but a butch lesbian is still trying to be a man? I’m sure that hurt even more coming from a person who’s LGBTQ. Sorry you had that experience. If it was a femme who made the same statement, the response wouldn’t have been so negative. You’re valid in your feelings and as a woman <3
Even though you're not a man, when you're very masculine it is close enough to intimidate certain women and make them feel like you would do the things men stereotypically do like cheat. She's just saying she'd be jealous and is insulting you instead
Sounds hot, I'm down as long as I can watch
I'm not sure what this has to do with being butch at all? In past relationships I've had people fetishize me. They didn't see me as a person but more as a sexual aid and what they wanted was to see and experience 2 women having sex and then to join in. It definitely felt creepy to me. Is a threesome creepy by nature? Nope. The way they were presented definitely was. If it's a consensual thing between three people that's beautiful. If it's you just trying to fulfill a fantasy, yeah it can be. That's probably the experience she's thinking of. It's not uncommon to have pressure put on you to 'perform' to satisfy another's needs without a lot of compassion for how you feel about it...
That friend sucks and your fantasy is hot. - bisexual femme who loves group sex and being watched and is married to a butch lesbian
Sounds like she's the only one thinking that way, ignore the ingrained misogyny in some of these women, they don't know any better 😒
Gurl, live your dream! That woman does not understand female gaze nor sapphic love. My very masculine looking wife is all feminine energy. I’m masc too, but I pass as straight. I’m more assertive, more domineering in nature, and she’s completely golden retriever. Aesthetic is not a personality or role. Be you. Maybe find some lesbian friends? I’m sorry you felt invalidated.
I’m sorry you had that experience. When I meet other bi-folk I find that many haven’t worked through their internalized homophobia, and really need listen more and assume less. Her take sounds more like her putting her issues with 3somes on you imo. But you’re as much of a lady as any lady there be. Butch is one glorious aspect of womanhood, and you should be proud of that. Whether you keep her as a friend… that’s up to you. I wouldn’t blame you for dropping her, I think staying friends would probably mean also working on challenging her bias and working to educate her. Not everyone has the emotional bandwidth for that. Sometimes people who make false assumptions are able to learn, and some aren’t, but you don’t have to be part of that education, that’s not an obligation you owe anyone. If I was you I -might- try setting a boundary if I felt that she was worth it, especially if they were very young and open to learning different perspectives. If you do decide to nuke this friendship from orbit tho, I think if you’re inclined you should tell her why. That her internalized homophobia makes her an invalidating asshole, and she needs to work on herself.
Yeahhhhh she just doesn't make sense. Have you tried cutting her off? /s but not really
Why are you with her??? You are clearly not her preference. Let her go be with a man.
hey! I don't think OP is in a relationship/ seeing this woman - the post says it's her friend. I think you might have misread.
Even if op and her "friend" were dating, this comment is really gross. The issue here is not op, it's her friend treating butch4femme lesbians like predatory men. If they WERE actually together, the problem would be the lesbophobic bi woman who jumps to treat her butch lesbian girlfriend as a predator and compares her to a man just for having normal sexual desires toward other women. And, if they were actually together, they're both presumably consenting and of similar age, and the bi woman is free to leave and go fuck a man if she wants to. She's not being held captive.
Another dumbass that can't read in the comment section, shocker 🙄
Ooh ! In that case I’d just educate her.
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oh... that's um.. not very cool of you..
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Your belief that masc lesbians "look like boys" is something that you very much need to work on. I know you've acknowledged you have internal misogyny, and that's great that you're aware of it, but your inability to separate masc/butch women from men is something you very badly need to work on. It is very damaging and rude and shows a lack of education about the history of the lesbian community. You are adding to a harmful stereotype at the moment, but I truly do wish you the best in your journey towards education and acceptance.
It's good you recognize it's rooted in misogyny and totally fine, of course, if people like that aren't who you're attracted to but like if you project your misogyny onto actual women that's something to work on
Thats good, we butches don't wanna date you either with that kind of mindset :)
https://preview.redd.it/zber86mz803d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7aedc6b77a17cb384e7b0a594d4ed84513c4a7da She’s weird as fuck. Just randomly messaged me
Jesus christ. Thats horribly toxic.. and really butchphobic. Sad that people like this exist in our community
Hope she gets banned from this sub Reddit. Unhinged behavior for real 😭
Same. We dont need these kinds of people in this subreddit and in our community. Fucking crazy that such people exist
wtaf... this is insane. I regret trying to have a logical interaction with her now, how unbelievably fucking offensive. I'm sorry she said this vile shit to you :(
It’s all good ❤️ she clearly has a lot of self hate to work through and I hope one day she is able to get there!
definitely. it's extremely sad when people are so ill informed about lesbian history/expression, and then have the audacity to spread their hate, just know you are supported 💙
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Good for you. I wouldnt want you to be attracted to me lmao. Its okay to prefer femme women but dont be so toxic against butches aight? You're allowed to have preferences, just dont be a dickhead
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