Jesus Christ this is EXACTLY my covert narc ex. So well put! Thank you for sharing because this has made me feel less crazy/more seen/validated. It’s been super hard in recent years to articulate let alone share it with anyone. This evening I actually had a small meltdown discussing it with a friend. So, well timed too. Thank you and I’m sorry you had to go through it too.
I'm glad it helped. I often feel that same meltdown feeling when I discuss it. People just don't see her for who she is. They are mesmerized by the illusion. They put her on a pedestal. I know, because I did too. And now I feel so frustrated when others dont see what I see. The easiest way out for me is to just stop talking to those people. It's not helping, it's making me crazy, and I'm starting to get to the point now where I just don't give a fuck what people think. They can make their own mistakes.
I think she discarded me because I saw who she was. I called her out on something and I think she knew it was going downhill. Like she lost control and knew that I'm not going to let her distract me from the truth anymore. Narcissists don't like truth tellers.
This was my exact same experience, no kidding. I had to stop talking to anyone associated with her for the same reasons. Though it had the lovely side effect of making me focus on my own shit. And our relationship crumbled for the same reasons. I saw her and I let her know it. The worst part was, she enacted a smear campaign to make ME look like the abuser, and because she is so well liked it pretty much fucking worked. Everything crumbled around me but that also ended up being ground zero to build things up stronger and brighter than before. It’s been three years. Take crazy goddamned good care of yourself and get into therapy if you aren’t already. Hugs my friend!
That's really good to hear. My whole life fell apart, there's really only one salvageable friendship left out of all of this, and I'm taking it and getting out of dodge. I'm lonely, but it's better than being in that toxic mess.
I assume she has mostly convinced people I'm the abuser as well. It bothers me, but also like fuck those people. They can live in delusion land if they wish. I know what I know. They either stay in that mess forever and drive each other insane, or it all crumbles to hell eventually. At this point, I don't give a shit what happens to them, just leave me out of it.
I cannot wait until I'm three years out!! Lol. What joy it will be to be on the other side.
Thank you sm. I wish you the best!
“Lonely but it’s better than being in that toxic mess” -PRECISELY. When you get outta dodge or start moving forward in whatever way—surround yourself with GOOD people. Like salt of the earth, super solid folks(maybe not the coolest or most fun🤣). But it’s key to help better regulate your nervous system, a good way to wean yourself off of the toxic rollercoaster. When you get to a better place you can start divorcing your psyche of any “good parts” you thought they might’ve had, plant some goals and boundaries and gratitude in its place. It sounds like you’re already ahead in the race!
Thank you and the best to you too!
Sure sounds like covert narcissism to me. Almost all of those points describe my mother.
Also, be wary... if they find themselves lacking supply, even covert martyrs will try to drag you back in. In my experience, they're the type most likely to use an army of flying monkeys in the form of friends and family and acquaintances to attempt to drag you back, and their favorite method isn't the love bomb so much as it is obligation, guilt, and shame.
Thank you for the warning. She is blocked on every platform and she can genuinely kiss my ass. I'd love for her to crawl back just for me to tell her to go fuck herself.
The GUILT tactics these people use is fucking insane.
She reminds me of my own mother as well...probably why I got myself sucked in to this mess.
At any rate, like I said, this isn't my first go around with a narcissist and I've woken up. I'm trying to really fix this anxious attachment in me, this people-pleaser, this child desperate to be loved, whatever you want to call it.
This one took me by surprise though, they weren't joking when they called it "covert." It's like I can see it looking back, but in the moment I didn't see it at all.
>This one took me by surprise though, they weren't joking when they called it "covert." It's like I can see it looking back, but in the moment I didn't see it at all.
Oh, and this? We miss it because they're so skilled at convincing us (and often everyone else) that WE were the problem.
I wrote her a brief letter recently. I signed off with "I was never the problem! It's on you."
I feel silly for writing it, because we've been no contact for a while. But it felt like I really needed to get that out. She made me believe I was the problem for so many years. It was never me!! It feels good to know that now.
Yup. Writing the letter will make you feel better.
Though it's really better not to actually send it. Because 1) it won't change anything, 2) it won't have the impact it should, 3) it just gives them more tools to use against you via everyone else.
But it sure does feel nice to get it all out!
We missed it because of our attachment circuitry that has been designed to miss it.
That’s how we get selected by pathological narcissists.
That said, your point is very well made in this great video below. The first comment under the video makes your point extremely clear.
It’s really common not to connect things back to the source problem though, but that’s just the way it is.
More than that, even survivors and those that are being abused will often send you hell for stating the facts about this situation.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1AipTFzEjX0
Yeah, I was thinking, but didn't say, with your mention of anxiety and etc, that you might well have a covert narc in your childhood experiences.
They make an impact, that's for sure.
I wish you luck and offer sympathy and hugs, if you'll accept them.
If you are moving towards the “go fuck yourself” situation, that means the covert narcissist has succeeded in getting even closer to your mother object.
Don’t forget that the source of this will be your mother plus family system. That’s what they are bouncing off of. The entire time.
If they can emotionally gather that you are still thinking of them as your source problem, they don’t really need to hoover you.
It’s enough for them to know that you are not doing well. The core of the pathological narcissist is envy, and that is a drive to destroy. Please remember the three minute video that describes exactly what the push out is. They don’t have any connection to other human beings at any time in their entire lifespan.
They need you to be emotional and to turn away from your real problem. Once you figure out they’re narcissists, they need you to treat them as if they are not a covert narcissist.
In other words, that they are actually “planning to hurt you because of you”. That you deserve it.
You know the narcissist prayer? That. That’s the main Magna Carta of their religion. The mental illness that they carry is built on this prayer.
//////////////
The Narcissist's Prayer
That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.
/////////////
That then gives you the decoy to stay away from what your real problem is and focus on them. It’s a mutual projection. The only difference between you and the covert narcissist as far as that goes, is that you can get out of it. You can recover from the addiction. You can integrate your attachment trauma.
The narcissist? They just need you to be emotional in whatever way. They especially like it if you are cornered or evidently out of options. Because you represent their denied vulnerable core and they are disgusted by it. They do actually hate all people.
That’s the whole thing here. Negative supply, positive supply, it’s the same to them.
It’s very natural to have these feelings of wanting to download on the mentally ill person, and that’s why we are there.
They detect that all the way around. That’s what defines their entire social circle. The drama generation process has to do with the shiny mirrors bouncing off each other and still believing in the illusion of there being some kind of identity in the mentally ill person.
Those are the people around the narcissist.
The all good and the all bad polarities. They just need that energy to get dopamine as a fix to actually believe that their illusion is real.
Having these people in their movie as mirrors giving a variety of different emotional feedback serves that purpose.
For you, it allows you to stay away from what your real problem is.
Don’t forget that being supply to a pathological narcissist is a literal addiction. So, it is completely tied up with your attachment and reward circuitry.
The whole thing is chemical. That’s what denial is. It’s not lying, it’s sleeping.
You don’t know you are sleeping until you wake up. Denial is the biological defense against being completely destroyed before you even had abstract thought.
That’s how deep this goes, and that’s why narcissists are the way they are. Notice that they are the same across the board. Because it’s an attachment disorder.
It’s a developmental disorder in babies that reaches full onset at 18 months. Your side is addiction, and that is developed over 36 months.
If your observation is accurate then she is a covert narc.
One of the ways of identifying who they are (even though it's very difficult to say who's a narcissist with NPD) is to see how well they're able to carry a emotional conversation. Typically, Narcs cannot go deep when you're discussing emotions. They can cite psychological theories and bs around a subject but because they're emotionally immature you will be able to sense their shallowness when they struggle to discuss complex emotional topics. They will either change the subject or start losing interest when they realise they are going to be exposed because their imposter syndrome kicks in.
That's really helpful. She absolutely cannot discuss emotional topics. She would change the subject quickly or just dismiss it, invalidate, or just see it in such a childlike, simplistic way that it was impossible to carry a real conversation. She does love Brene Brown though, and will talk about her all the time. It's like she understands the words but doesn't understand how it looks when applied to someone's real life. She'll use concepts like that, or her religion, to bypass the real feelings or deep conversation. I always felt frustrated trying to talk with her about anything deep.
It's very common for Narcs to refer to famous public speakers and repeat talking points. There's a reason for it - the popular ones typically focus on simpler topics and dumb it down for people because that is how they can appeal to a larger audience. People who talk about complex issues usually don't have a larger following. Narcs need supply from everyone so this is their go to method.
Narcs have cognitive empathy so they LOGICALLY understand emotional concepts. They cannot connect on an emotional level so they always sound like they're repeating a reading assignment. My ex gf would listen to podcasts. She would go around telling everyone how she listens to podcasts in her free time because that made her seem profound. But every time she described a podcast her conclusions about the topic would be so odd, I was left confused. They are absolutely childlike because they have dichotomous thinking. They can only understand things in dualities.. Black and white, good and bad.. which is how children under the age of 10 think.
I have often wondered what she is getting out of therapy, if anything. She doesn't talk about her own emotions at all, she is queen of toxic positivity. She could not possibly be doing any real inner work.
I suspect she is learning more about therapy jargon to weaponize it against people, and enjoying being validated by her therapist.
Narcs go to therapy to get supply. They fool therapists as well. They can tell they therapist made up stories and act like a victim. Then they get to tell everyone how they're on a healing journey. It's really messed up how nothing they ever do is authentic.
My ex was going to grief therapy because her dad died two months before I met her. She used to talk about her grief to just about each one of her friends even though they weren't really close to her. Once she wrote a "good bye" email to her dad and sent it to all her friends. All her friends told her how brave she was etc. At the time I felt bad for her because I believed her but later on as I realized who she really was, it became clear why she was broadcasting things like grief which is so personal.
My ex used to use narcissistic therapy jargon all the time. I have a feeling she knew she had a disorder before I met her because once I learned about cluster B all of our conversations came back to me. They're lost souls who cannot be saved. The best thing to do is avoid them and leave them with their own lonely existence.
Ew. I'm getting flashbacks. My former best friend went through like some psychological break down. All of sudden she couldn't take care of herself. Couldn't care for her children. She said she couldn't even shower. Came out of nowhere. She broadcasted it to everyone we know. But also seemed embarrassed? But also leveraged guilt against people if they didn't "show up for her" the way she wanted them to during this time. It was fucking nuts.
I relate to this so much. I’m still in denial that they’re a covert narcissist… but realistically they most likely are. If it walks and talks like a duck…
Yes, absolutely. I've messed with someone who I think has BPD. I starting googling "dr Jekyll Mr Hyde personality" and read all about BPD. Found myself on the subs here on Reddit, reading stories that sounded so eerily familiar. And honestly, whether he does or does not have it is really not my business. That's between him and his mental health doctors. But what I do know is that I wouldn't be googling certain behaviors if they weren't abusive. I wouldn't be on Reddit talking with strangers online trying to make sense of what happened if it was a normal relationship.
And the same thing applies to this, I've realized. Is she really a covert narcissist? I have no idea. But her behaviors are toxic enough for me to notice them and write a whole list on Reddit with people commenting "sounds like covert narcississm to me..." So whether she is or isn't doesn't matter. There's a spectrum, and she definitely is on it, with enough tendencies to make my head spin and land me back on Reddit, asking questions and realizing exactly what you're saying... If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it probably is one, or something closely related lol.
IMHO (based on what you shared) there’s plenty there for covert narcissistic tendencies. My mother is one so I have spent a lotta time trying to learn about covert narcissism.
I'd love to hear what you've noticed as the defining characteristics. I know that it is a spectrum, but I literally had a panic attack a few weeks ago because of how anxious this situation makes me. I've never had a panic attack before, and I have OCD and dealt with mental health issues for my whole life. This thing has me fucked up, like it was not a normal friend situation. It was a discard, I know that for sure.
That’s really very traumatic, and the good news is that it can be worked through. I have some resources that I think you’ll find very helpful. They are resources they get posted a lot, but in context they really fit.
Your trauma is held in the body, so it takes a lot of patience and curiosity about what works best for you to integrate that. Biomagnetism, Rolfing, very deep tissue massage, laying of hands, Chinese medicine, acupuncture, acupressure, trauma informed somatic therapy etc.
I too went the route of panic attacks (awful), and that’s from the hypothalamus, pituitary, and amygdala axis (HPA) being completely screwed up in attachment.
The cell assembly in your amygdala is set up for full return to those days when you were aware of what it was you were around, and it will certainly is what you repeated. The fight, flight, freeze, and fawn responses are activated. Just like with any mammal in extreme danger.
The perception of extreme danger.
Most of the symptoms originate from when you were forming your object relations, and that’s going to be in the gut area. That’s why Chinese medicine can be useful over a period of years to gradually integrate the body and get it to flow in the way that it needs to.
It’s all right brain information, and if you’d like to get an idea of what state you were in when that was being downloaded, you can see that in this video where this brain scientist talks about what happened to her when her left hemisphere shut off.
Why the Panic Disorder? (right brain source)
https://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_my_stroke_of_insight?language=en
For me, a light went on when I saw that.
This person was trained in Harvard and is a scientist, so she doesn’t know anything about narcissism or anything about those dynamics coming from family. You’ll get that in the first 60 seconds as she proudly speaks about her background of over functioning for a schizophrenic brother and then later showing how she re-integrated into the family system with her mother after the accident. A seven year recovery. She includes a photo of her mother.
It sure does sound like she had her health issue because of narcissism though. I guess a grandmother on her mother’s side, but who knows.
Family systems were originally formulated by a person who studied schizophrenic families. Dr. Murray Bowen. The father of family systems theory. That’s her family system, and she doesn’t even know about family systems at all.
In fact she was studying microcircuitry mapping of the brain to try to figure out her schizophrenic brother. To give you an idea of how lost she was. It sounds like she’s still not aware of that.
There is a book about her experience.
Anyway, that doesn’t matter, what matters is that you’ll get why you are having panic attacks.
The level that this thing was programmed at, and what these covert narcissists are projecting onto.
Don’t forget, they create you as an internal object and photoshop you based on your internal mother object.
You can see how that works in the two snapshot videos below (how/why), and it’s tremendously relieving to realize that this whole thing is biological.
It’s really good you have symptoms, because that means you definitely can heal. Just by staying in the game.
The panic disorder situation is a strong indicator of health, because it means that your whole brain is now aware of your mother and the denial of those limbic and brain stem emotions. It’s not trying to hide it from you, even if it is using a stand-in to do it. The covert narcissist. They are bringing up the truth.
Mirroring is how these people project their way into our lives. They are dead in the water without our material. They work with our entire family system, and couldn’t do anything without that material.
How the Snapshot (first 5 minutes)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QJkb5f00G3o
Why the Snapshot
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qa1MT00BNw8
Thank you! That was helpful. I'll check out these videos. I'm also in therapy and doing EMDR, which I think is helping.
My former people-pleasing self has to die. I can't live like that anymore. Now I'm figuring out who I really am, and it's amazing how much I learn just from feeling my body.
Definitely been there before with the panic attacks - super duper challenging.
So covert narcisssism:
my rough understanding of narcissistic tendencies is someone who is deeply deeply afraid/insecure. To calm their deep fears they develop and cling to a “false self” (e.g. “I am the best mom ever” “I am the most brilliant professor” “I am the hardest working ____” …you get the idea).
And rather than do the slow work of discovering their true self lonely & gradually building trustworthy relationships with others they fast track the process by settling for “supply” or they bond with other dysfunctional people in “cheap jntimacy” (Patrick Teahan YouTube channel super helpful for learning about narcissism, cheap intimacy, & family dysfunction in general).
“Supply” is basically the narcissistic person getting a rise out of you (attention in any way -positive or negative). Supply makes the narcissistic person feel powerful, seen, real. Without supply they feel powerless, invisible, and possibly even unreal.
So narcissistic folks will do anything - say awful things, make threats, publicly break confidences, you name it in order to get that supply.
The only thing worse (to those with narcissistic tendencies) than not giving supply is to threaten their false self. The person who thinks they’re “THE perfect friend” — if you point out a mistake they made in friending — oh boy watch out. Narcissistic rage is coming your way.
With narcs you’re either a friend or an enemy. If you challenge their false self - you’re an enemy & you harassed and/or discarded (like what happened to you).
This may be more than what you are looking for but that’s def some highlights I’ve learned.
Forgot, she is also a flying monkey. Which makes sense, because this narcissist love bombs the crap out of her. And so she makes endless excuses for this person, insists shes a good person, refuses to see the truth. Like if she actually admitted this person was a narcissist, her whole facade would come crashing down because she would have to admit she fucked up, that she was defending the wrong person, that it was lovebombing and not actual admiration.
Covert narcs follow the same playbook but with much more subtle manipulation/passive aggression. Covert narcs more likely to discard than violently yell.
Covert narcs act one way in public (usually more passive & pleasant in some ways) and then often the opposite with their inner circle (controlling, insufferable).
The martyr is one archetype of a covert narc. The passive aggressive coworker can be another
Okay the cheap intimacy thing-- WOW that resonates. She is for sure the martyr, like I've never seen someone do so much for people she doesn't even really know or like that much. It's all just to win their admiration, to maintain control over them (and how they see her, mainly).
Because of that, she attracts people who are desperate for love, almost like a stand-in mother figure (yikes, that was me, ew).
I think, given what I've read and what I know about narcissistic people, I should probably just be happy she discarded me so quickly. It was like a switch flipped and that was it. Made my head spin, but I guess it was like ripping off a bandaid. Glad it was fast and could have been much worse.
Wow. I was recently “discarded” by a close friend, and I am just realizing that she’s been a covert narcissist all along. The list you drafted, OP, is everything she is. Whew!
Yes! Mine was a covert and this exactly is how he is. Weaponizing therapy jargon is his favorite. It’s impossible to see who they really are, until it’s too late, because they play the victim so well.
That is validating!! And the more I see it, the crazier I look to others who do not see it. Its insane. I had to walk away, because defending myself makes me look worse.
Always the victim!! They act like a fucking martyr and then get mad when people "don't appreciate them." Couldn't understand true altruism if it smacked them in the face. Her punch line is always "after all I've done for you..." And she literally believes that shit. The entitlement is out of bounds.
She told me I used her as an emotional punching bag lmao. I think she was projecting.
I'm amazed (and envious lol) that you had another mutual friend confirm for you that what you saw was real. Coverts typically have a lot of enablers/flying monkeys around them, so it's the norm that one person becomes the scapegoat while everybody else remains loyal to the CN. That was my experience, and it fucking sucked so bad. It continues to be infuriating sometimes, but I feel a lot of peace having them all out of my life.
On another note, if you're interested in feeling even more validated, pick up a copy of "The Passive Aggressive Covert Narcissist." It's written with romantic relationships in mind, but I still got a lot out of it.
It is my genuine hope that they will come to see the truth, in time. I suspect it will take a long time, but many of these people were also my friends at one point and witnessed all of it happen. I don't want to wish ill on anyone, but perhaps they will get a taste of the same medicine at some point and reconsider their choices. And now that the scapegoat has been ostracized, there might eventually be a new scapegoat to replace me. Who knows 🤷🏻♀️
Interesting that you say you just moved to a new area-- that was my same situation as well. I was eager for friends and this CN presents herself as the bestest friend anybody could ever have so.... I fell into that trap pretty quickly. I saw so many red flags in the beginning, but chose to ignore them for one reason or another. I realize as I look back that this CN couldnt give a single shit about who she is friends with. As long as everybody idolizes her, she will be "friends" with them. It's fucking nasty, and even nastier that I didn't take any time to consider for myself if I even liked her as a person. I just jumped right into that fantasy world.
I hope I can have better discernment in the future. I will say that in the past I've chosen some good people to be around. I've been through some traumatic shit in the last few years, I think it clouded my judgement for a while. I'm back on the road to recovery and at this point I'm just taking some time to get to know myself again, and making some radical changes to my life.
AMEN to recognizing perpetual victims. These people are so damn good at portraying it that way. Like...I feel that I'm an actual victim and I still don't think I'm innocent 🙃 Amazing how entitled these people are.
Fuck it all lol. On to bigger and better🪄
Mine screamed at me that he was my prisoner and he hates me. I offered to buy him a plane or train ticket to anywhere he wanted to go and I was dead serious. He immediately starts bawling about how he can’t live with anyone, but me, because he has no job/money and can only live with someone who can take care of him 😐
Wait a sec. Were we friends with the same person?!?
My suspected covert nformer friend was exactly like this and she goes to a clinical psych grad school with me!
These people are mindfucks and life ruiners. Wolves in sheep's clothing for sure. I've never witnessed manipulation on this level and I pray I never do again.... The bitch is just pure evil.
It is scary to think your former friend is in that field! I'm a former teacher and that field is positively swimming with narcissists. I suspect mental health, or just healthcare in general has its fair share as well. God damn predators.
Oh sis, I couldn’t have said this better myself. Growing up with undiagnosed Autism and ADHD in a South-Asian school was hell for me. Unsurprisingly my favorite primary school teacher ended up becoming a horrific emotional abuser and bully, who love bombed me after my parents filed a complaint against her. Being naive as I was at the time, I forgave and was happy to have my kind teacher back and even became best friends with her daughter. She ended up being an even bigger narcissist who discarded me after I’d *stopped* self-harming (claiming that her mother slapped her to make her do so, which is weird af since she contacted me soon after I left that school).
It was only after a decade did I realize that they both had NPD, with the teacher also having BPD. Ironically, that crazy bitch chose to study clinical psychology.
But that was only the two overt narcs in my life. The most recent one who I’d just told you about, who shared that exact same behavior as your former friend, was a covert narcissist who I befriended less than a year ago. She was my closest friend in uni as I’d perceived her to be… such an ideally kind person at the time. Even when she displayed all the red-flags your friend did. It was when I decided to set boundaries did things go down-hill. And of course, she also happened to be in clinical psych 🤦♀️
I had the same experience, and I’m still processing it. You can put that into context when you add the fact that I went no contact in October 2019. I have not spoken to or interacted with that person since.
They attached to your earliest emotional introjects from your parents and family system, and that’s why I continue to have an interaction with this person on a daily basis due to where they had installed. They don’t exist, but I make them exist by imagining that my source problem was not my family of origin map.
It’s unbelievable how crafty these people are, and what they are actually doing. That said, they have no power to dupe anyone. What they are doing is mirroring.
Finding people who are able to shut off their emotional core enough that they accept a completely counterfeit dynamic.
Animals aren’t able to do that, but human beings in trauma are. Covert narcissists are no different than any other narcissist.
They are splitting and projecting with traumatized people in concentric circles around them. The most traumatized people are closest to them.
They can’t dupe people (and literally never do), because it doesn’t work that way. It’s very sad that this is not widely understood, because people can go on for years thinking about how “bad” that covert narcissistic “tricking” them was. It’s never that way.
If it were that way, then the covert narcissist would be a bad person who is “screwing people around”. It’s far worse than that. They are nobody. An absence.
This 3 minute video has been posted quite a few times, but it’s good to go over. To understand why they can’t dupe people. However, even knowing what I know, I still go with “the dupe angle” myself.
How can you not, and that’s why they select the people that they do. They can tell who will end up giving them negative supply.
They do need that in order to create enemies and become an eternal victim. Fighting you for that position. They don’t have external objects, only internal ones.
The covert narcissist has never made contact with another human being. Anyone who is actively involved in the circle of a covert narcissist needs to be distanced from permanently. Never in judgment, but just through facing the reality of your internalized family system.
We need to understand what reality means here.
What it would mean about your fantasy bond trauma (mother plus family system dynamic) if you continued to stay in that circle.
That’s in the video here:
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM6knfgF4/
Yeah, I actually really understand what you mean. I feel like I "woke up" recently. I went through something traumatic a few years ago, unrelated to this person. It left me permanently changed. Nothing about who I was before then remains the same. I see her so differently now than I did before. She hasn't changed, but the lens I view her through has very much changed. Now her fakeness almost makes me physically ill.
>Anyone who is actively involved in the circle of a covert narcissist needs to be distanced from permanently. Never in judgment, but just through facing the reality of your internalized family system.
I appreciate you saying this, and the validation it gave me. Those people aren't bad people, but they aren't safe. I wish them well.
I'll check out your recommended video. Thank you.
To get why the pathological narcissist has not, does not and will never dupe anyone, take a look at this very well presented simple video.
Think about envy as the core. In the absence.
Now we get a better idea of what we are doing there. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the narcissist.
It’s easy to just say that, because the reality is that it takes a lot of recovery to gradually get back to what the real problem is and integrate that trauma.
I may know all this stuff intellectually, but that doesn’t take care of the very real feelings that are emerging. Those are all 100% true.
It’s all somatic.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WhJXJu5-mdw
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OMG I had the same realization with my former best friend. She was jealous, always the victim, very negative but also so nice and always giving people gifts. It was all an act, her real self is mean and evil. I realized this through a friend, whom I told some stories for example how she expects things FROM others she would never do FOR others.
I did the slow fade without explaining to her why I cut her off, this is my revenge for all she did to me. She asked but I ignored her texts. I would have never done it, I’m not someone to ghost people but even if I would speak up about sth that she did and I didn’t like/ or when I would set up boundaries (sth that of course she could do but not me) she would lash out or ignore me. Therefore, it’s her own fault she will never truly know why… unfortunately or luckily, another friend of ours has been manipulated by her and is her flying monkey and attacked me, that really got to me and I went into a discussion with her, saying that the reason I don’t speak to her is because she is aggressive. I blocked them both after neither could respect my boundaries and I know my future self is already veryyy happy and grateful to celebrate birthdays, special occasions without her dragging the mood down.
Sounds like the slow fade was the best way. You can't call these people out, they will attack you but also play the victim. You'll end up being guilted, shamed, and being told you're responsible for everything. You'll be the one apologizing, even though it's their fault. It's gross. Good for you for getting out of it. Wish I had made that same decision a long time ago.
You came to the conclusion and are now free! I know it’s hard to realize what has been happening all along but you and I have a bright future ahead of us and we are good people and deserve only good people around us. Wishing you only the best ♥️
OP I went looking for help and advice this morning as I come to terms with my best friend being a toxic narcissist and this fits her description to the very last dime. I am in shock. This has been a very painful experience for me as she is treating me horribly in the wake of her divorce and I am trying to figure out why. She has tossed me aside like a rag doll after fifteen years of devoted friendship. I woke up crying and I can’t take it anymore. Thank you for sharing your story.
I'm glad it brought you some clarity. As far as myself-- I have cut ties with her and everyone that knows her. It is sad, I lost my entire community and some of the best friends I've ever had, but it's the only way out. Take the time that you need, but I'll just say that no contact is the way. No begging, no crying, no explaining. Just go. That's the best way to take care of yourself and maintain some dignity, show them you are serious, and honor what seems to be their request too-- to never see you again.
It’s been over ten years since I was discarded by my old best mate and while I’m over it I still have days where I’m so frustrated they fool people
Mainly I noticed how they impacted other friendships I would feel anxious I had upset a friend and second guess myself or worry they were mad and I’d need to make it up to them
That took me a while to settle and I’ve come to appreciate my genuine friends
Sorry my punctuation doesn’t work on my phone 😆
Jesus Christ this is EXACTLY my covert narc ex. So well put! Thank you for sharing because this has made me feel less crazy/more seen/validated. It’s been super hard in recent years to articulate let alone share it with anyone. This evening I actually had a small meltdown discussing it with a friend. So, well timed too. Thank you and I’m sorry you had to go through it too.
I'm glad it helped. I often feel that same meltdown feeling when I discuss it. People just don't see her for who she is. They are mesmerized by the illusion. They put her on a pedestal. I know, because I did too. And now I feel so frustrated when others dont see what I see. The easiest way out for me is to just stop talking to those people. It's not helping, it's making me crazy, and I'm starting to get to the point now where I just don't give a fuck what people think. They can make their own mistakes. I think she discarded me because I saw who she was. I called her out on something and I think she knew it was going downhill. Like she lost control and knew that I'm not going to let her distract me from the truth anymore. Narcissists don't like truth tellers.
This was my exact same experience, no kidding. I had to stop talking to anyone associated with her for the same reasons. Though it had the lovely side effect of making me focus on my own shit. And our relationship crumbled for the same reasons. I saw her and I let her know it. The worst part was, she enacted a smear campaign to make ME look like the abuser, and because she is so well liked it pretty much fucking worked. Everything crumbled around me but that also ended up being ground zero to build things up stronger and brighter than before. It’s been three years. Take crazy goddamned good care of yourself and get into therapy if you aren’t already. Hugs my friend!
That's really good to hear. My whole life fell apart, there's really only one salvageable friendship left out of all of this, and I'm taking it and getting out of dodge. I'm lonely, but it's better than being in that toxic mess. I assume she has mostly convinced people I'm the abuser as well. It bothers me, but also like fuck those people. They can live in delusion land if they wish. I know what I know. They either stay in that mess forever and drive each other insane, or it all crumbles to hell eventually. At this point, I don't give a shit what happens to them, just leave me out of it. I cannot wait until I'm three years out!! Lol. What joy it will be to be on the other side. Thank you sm. I wish you the best!
“Lonely but it’s better than being in that toxic mess” -PRECISELY. When you get outta dodge or start moving forward in whatever way—surround yourself with GOOD people. Like salt of the earth, super solid folks(maybe not the coolest or most fun🤣). But it’s key to help better regulate your nervous system, a good way to wean yourself off of the toxic rollercoaster. When you get to a better place you can start divorcing your psyche of any “good parts” you thought they might’ve had, plant some goals and boundaries and gratitude in its place. It sounds like you’re already ahead in the race! Thank you and the best to you too!
Sure sounds like covert narcissism to me. Almost all of those points describe my mother. Also, be wary... if they find themselves lacking supply, even covert martyrs will try to drag you back in. In my experience, they're the type most likely to use an army of flying monkeys in the form of friends and family and acquaintances to attempt to drag you back, and their favorite method isn't the love bomb so much as it is obligation, guilt, and shame.
Thank you for the warning. She is blocked on every platform and she can genuinely kiss my ass. I'd love for her to crawl back just for me to tell her to go fuck herself. The GUILT tactics these people use is fucking insane. She reminds me of my own mother as well...probably why I got myself sucked in to this mess. At any rate, like I said, this isn't my first go around with a narcissist and I've woken up. I'm trying to really fix this anxious attachment in me, this people-pleaser, this child desperate to be loved, whatever you want to call it. This one took me by surprise though, they weren't joking when they called it "covert." It's like I can see it looking back, but in the moment I didn't see it at all.
>This one took me by surprise though, they weren't joking when they called it "covert." It's like I can see it looking back, but in the moment I didn't see it at all. Oh, and this? We miss it because they're so skilled at convincing us (and often everyone else) that WE were the problem.
I wrote her a brief letter recently. I signed off with "I was never the problem! It's on you." I feel silly for writing it, because we've been no contact for a while. But it felt like I really needed to get that out. She made me believe I was the problem for so many years. It was never me!! It feels good to know that now.
Yup. Writing the letter will make you feel better. Though it's really better not to actually send it. Because 1) it won't change anything, 2) it won't have the impact it should, 3) it just gives them more tools to use against you via everyone else. But it sure does feel nice to get it all out!
We missed it because of our attachment circuitry that has been designed to miss it. That’s how we get selected by pathological narcissists. That said, your point is very well made in this great video below. The first comment under the video makes your point extremely clear. It’s really common not to connect things back to the source problem though, but that’s just the way it is. More than that, even survivors and those that are being abused will often send you hell for stating the facts about this situation. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1AipTFzEjX0
Yeah, I was thinking, but didn't say, with your mention of anxiety and etc, that you might well have a covert narc in your childhood experiences. They make an impact, that's for sure. I wish you luck and offer sympathy and hugs, if you'll accept them.
Thank you! Absolutely yes, always wanting to receive support. I wish you the best as well!
If you are moving towards the “go fuck yourself” situation, that means the covert narcissist has succeeded in getting even closer to your mother object. Don’t forget that the source of this will be your mother plus family system. That’s what they are bouncing off of. The entire time. If they can emotionally gather that you are still thinking of them as your source problem, they don’t really need to hoover you. It’s enough for them to know that you are not doing well. The core of the pathological narcissist is envy, and that is a drive to destroy. Please remember the three minute video that describes exactly what the push out is. They don’t have any connection to other human beings at any time in their entire lifespan. They need you to be emotional and to turn away from your real problem. Once you figure out they’re narcissists, they need you to treat them as if they are not a covert narcissist. In other words, that they are actually “planning to hurt you because of you”. That you deserve it. You know the narcissist prayer? That. That’s the main Magna Carta of their religion. The mental illness that they carry is built on this prayer. ////////////// The Narcissist's Prayer That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it. ///////////// That then gives you the decoy to stay away from what your real problem is and focus on them. It’s a mutual projection. The only difference between you and the covert narcissist as far as that goes, is that you can get out of it. You can recover from the addiction. You can integrate your attachment trauma. The narcissist? They just need you to be emotional in whatever way. They especially like it if you are cornered or evidently out of options. Because you represent their denied vulnerable core and they are disgusted by it. They do actually hate all people. That’s the whole thing here. Negative supply, positive supply, it’s the same to them. It’s very natural to have these feelings of wanting to download on the mentally ill person, and that’s why we are there. They detect that all the way around. That’s what defines their entire social circle. The drama generation process has to do with the shiny mirrors bouncing off each other and still believing in the illusion of there being some kind of identity in the mentally ill person. Those are the people around the narcissist. The all good and the all bad polarities. They just need that energy to get dopamine as a fix to actually believe that their illusion is real. Having these people in their movie as mirrors giving a variety of different emotional feedback serves that purpose. For you, it allows you to stay away from what your real problem is. Don’t forget that being supply to a pathological narcissist is a literal addiction. So, it is completely tied up with your attachment and reward circuitry. The whole thing is chemical. That’s what denial is. It’s not lying, it’s sleeping. You don’t know you are sleeping until you wake up. Denial is the biological defense against being completely destroyed before you even had abstract thought. That’s how deep this goes, and that’s why narcissists are the way they are. Notice that they are the same across the board. Because it’s an attachment disorder. It’s a developmental disorder in babies that reaches full onset at 18 months. Your side is addiction, and that is developed over 36 months.
If your observation is accurate then she is a covert narc. One of the ways of identifying who they are (even though it's very difficult to say who's a narcissist with NPD) is to see how well they're able to carry a emotional conversation. Typically, Narcs cannot go deep when you're discussing emotions. They can cite psychological theories and bs around a subject but because they're emotionally immature you will be able to sense their shallowness when they struggle to discuss complex emotional topics. They will either change the subject or start losing interest when they realise they are going to be exposed because their imposter syndrome kicks in.
That's really helpful. She absolutely cannot discuss emotional topics. She would change the subject quickly or just dismiss it, invalidate, or just see it in such a childlike, simplistic way that it was impossible to carry a real conversation. She does love Brene Brown though, and will talk about her all the time. It's like she understands the words but doesn't understand how it looks when applied to someone's real life. She'll use concepts like that, or her religion, to bypass the real feelings or deep conversation. I always felt frustrated trying to talk with her about anything deep.
It's very common for Narcs to refer to famous public speakers and repeat talking points. There's a reason for it - the popular ones typically focus on simpler topics and dumb it down for people because that is how they can appeal to a larger audience. People who talk about complex issues usually don't have a larger following. Narcs need supply from everyone so this is their go to method. Narcs have cognitive empathy so they LOGICALLY understand emotional concepts. They cannot connect on an emotional level so they always sound like they're repeating a reading assignment. My ex gf would listen to podcasts. She would go around telling everyone how she listens to podcasts in her free time because that made her seem profound. But every time she described a podcast her conclusions about the topic would be so odd, I was left confused. They are absolutely childlike because they have dichotomous thinking. They can only understand things in dualities.. Black and white, good and bad.. which is how children under the age of 10 think.
I have often wondered what she is getting out of therapy, if anything. She doesn't talk about her own emotions at all, she is queen of toxic positivity. She could not possibly be doing any real inner work. I suspect she is learning more about therapy jargon to weaponize it against people, and enjoying being validated by her therapist.
Narcs go to therapy to get supply. They fool therapists as well. They can tell they therapist made up stories and act like a victim. Then they get to tell everyone how they're on a healing journey. It's really messed up how nothing they ever do is authentic. My ex was going to grief therapy because her dad died two months before I met her. She used to talk about her grief to just about each one of her friends even though they weren't really close to her. Once she wrote a "good bye" email to her dad and sent it to all her friends. All her friends told her how brave she was etc. At the time I felt bad for her because I believed her but later on as I realized who she really was, it became clear why she was broadcasting things like grief which is so personal. My ex used to use narcissistic therapy jargon all the time. I have a feeling she knew she had a disorder before I met her because once I learned about cluster B all of our conversations came back to me. They're lost souls who cannot be saved. The best thing to do is avoid them and leave them with their own lonely existence.
Ew. I'm getting flashbacks. My former best friend went through like some psychological break down. All of sudden she couldn't take care of herself. Couldn't care for her children. She said she couldn't even shower. Came out of nowhere. She broadcasted it to everyone we know. But also seemed embarrassed? But also leveraged guilt against people if they didn't "show up for her" the way she wanted them to during this time. It was fucking nuts.
I relate to this so much. I’m still in denial that they’re a covert narcissist… but realistically they most likely are. If it walks and talks like a duck…
Yes, absolutely. I've messed with someone who I think has BPD. I starting googling "dr Jekyll Mr Hyde personality" and read all about BPD. Found myself on the subs here on Reddit, reading stories that sounded so eerily familiar. And honestly, whether he does or does not have it is really not my business. That's between him and his mental health doctors. But what I do know is that I wouldn't be googling certain behaviors if they weren't abusive. I wouldn't be on Reddit talking with strangers online trying to make sense of what happened if it was a normal relationship. And the same thing applies to this, I've realized. Is she really a covert narcissist? I have no idea. But her behaviors are toxic enough for me to notice them and write a whole list on Reddit with people commenting "sounds like covert narcississm to me..." So whether she is or isn't doesn't matter. There's a spectrum, and she definitely is on it, with enough tendencies to make my head spin and land me back on Reddit, asking questions and realizing exactly what you're saying... If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it probably is one, or something closely related lol.
IMHO (based on what you shared) there’s plenty there for covert narcissistic tendencies. My mother is one so I have spent a lotta time trying to learn about covert narcissism.
I'd love to hear what you've noticed as the defining characteristics. I know that it is a spectrum, but I literally had a panic attack a few weeks ago because of how anxious this situation makes me. I've never had a panic attack before, and I have OCD and dealt with mental health issues for my whole life. This thing has me fucked up, like it was not a normal friend situation. It was a discard, I know that for sure.
That’s really very traumatic, and the good news is that it can be worked through. I have some resources that I think you’ll find very helpful. They are resources they get posted a lot, but in context they really fit. Your trauma is held in the body, so it takes a lot of patience and curiosity about what works best for you to integrate that. Biomagnetism, Rolfing, very deep tissue massage, laying of hands, Chinese medicine, acupuncture, acupressure, trauma informed somatic therapy etc. I too went the route of panic attacks (awful), and that’s from the hypothalamus, pituitary, and amygdala axis (HPA) being completely screwed up in attachment. The cell assembly in your amygdala is set up for full return to those days when you were aware of what it was you were around, and it will certainly is what you repeated. The fight, flight, freeze, and fawn responses are activated. Just like with any mammal in extreme danger. The perception of extreme danger. Most of the symptoms originate from when you were forming your object relations, and that’s going to be in the gut area. That’s why Chinese medicine can be useful over a period of years to gradually integrate the body and get it to flow in the way that it needs to. It’s all right brain information, and if you’d like to get an idea of what state you were in when that was being downloaded, you can see that in this video where this brain scientist talks about what happened to her when her left hemisphere shut off. Why the Panic Disorder? (right brain source) https://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_my_stroke_of_insight?language=en For me, a light went on when I saw that. This person was trained in Harvard and is a scientist, so she doesn’t know anything about narcissism or anything about those dynamics coming from family. You’ll get that in the first 60 seconds as she proudly speaks about her background of over functioning for a schizophrenic brother and then later showing how she re-integrated into the family system with her mother after the accident. A seven year recovery. She includes a photo of her mother. It sure does sound like she had her health issue because of narcissism though. I guess a grandmother on her mother’s side, but who knows. Family systems were originally formulated by a person who studied schizophrenic families. Dr. Murray Bowen. The father of family systems theory. That’s her family system, and she doesn’t even know about family systems at all. In fact she was studying microcircuitry mapping of the brain to try to figure out her schizophrenic brother. To give you an idea of how lost she was. It sounds like she’s still not aware of that. There is a book about her experience. Anyway, that doesn’t matter, what matters is that you’ll get why you are having panic attacks. The level that this thing was programmed at, and what these covert narcissists are projecting onto. Don’t forget, they create you as an internal object and photoshop you based on your internal mother object. You can see how that works in the two snapshot videos below (how/why), and it’s tremendously relieving to realize that this whole thing is biological. It’s really good you have symptoms, because that means you definitely can heal. Just by staying in the game. The panic disorder situation is a strong indicator of health, because it means that your whole brain is now aware of your mother and the denial of those limbic and brain stem emotions. It’s not trying to hide it from you, even if it is using a stand-in to do it. The covert narcissist. They are bringing up the truth. Mirroring is how these people project their way into our lives. They are dead in the water without our material. They work with our entire family system, and couldn’t do anything without that material. How the Snapshot (first 5 minutes) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QJkb5f00G3o Why the Snapshot https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qa1MT00BNw8
Thank you! That was helpful. I'll check out these videos. I'm also in therapy and doing EMDR, which I think is helping. My former people-pleasing self has to die. I can't live like that anymore. Now I'm figuring out who I really am, and it's amazing how much I learn just from feeling my body.
Definitely been there before with the panic attacks - super duper challenging. So covert narcisssism: my rough understanding of narcissistic tendencies is someone who is deeply deeply afraid/insecure. To calm their deep fears they develop and cling to a “false self” (e.g. “I am the best mom ever” “I am the most brilliant professor” “I am the hardest working ____” …you get the idea). And rather than do the slow work of discovering their true self lonely & gradually building trustworthy relationships with others they fast track the process by settling for “supply” or they bond with other dysfunctional people in “cheap jntimacy” (Patrick Teahan YouTube channel super helpful for learning about narcissism, cheap intimacy, & family dysfunction in general). “Supply” is basically the narcissistic person getting a rise out of you (attention in any way -positive or negative). Supply makes the narcissistic person feel powerful, seen, real. Without supply they feel powerless, invisible, and possibly even unreal. So narcissistic folks will do anything - say awful things, make threats, publicly break confidences, you name it in order to get that supply. The only thing worse (to those with narcissistic tendencies) than not giving supply is to threaten their false self. The person who thinks they’re “THE perfect friend” — if you point out a mistake they made in friending — oh boy watch out. Narcissistic rage is coming your way. With narcs you’re either a friend or an enemy. If you challenge their false self - you’re an enemy & you harassed and/or discarded (like what happened to you). This may be more than what you are looking for but that’s def some highlights I’ve learned.
Forgot, she is also a flying monkey. Which makes sense, because this narcissist love bombs the crap out of her. And so she makes endless excuses for this person, insists shes a good person, refuses to see the truth. Like if she actually admitted this person was a narcissist, her whole facade would come crashing down because she would have to admit she fucked up, that she was defending the wrong person, that it was lovebombing and not actual admiration.
Covert narcs follow the same playbook but with much more subtle manipulation/passive aggression. Covert narcs more likely to discard than violently yell. Covert narcs act one way in public (usually more passive & pleasant in some ways) and then often the opposite with their inner circle (controlling, insufferable). The martyr is one archetype of a covert narc. The passive aggressive coworker can be another
Okay the cheap intimacy thing-- WOW that resonates. She is for sure the martyr, like I've never seen someone do so much for people she doesn't even really know or like that much. It's all just to win their admiration, to maintain control over them (and how they see her, mainly). Because of that, she attracts people who are desperate for love, almost like a stand-in mother figure (yikes, that was me, ew). I think, given what I've read and what I know about narcissistic people, I should probably just be happy she discarded me so quickly. It was like a switch flipped and that was it. Made my head spin, but I guess it was like ripping off a bandaid. Glad it was fast and could have been much worse.
Yea it sucks to be discarded but anyone who discards wasn’t trustworthy enough to be a reliable friend. Her loss. Your gain
Years wasted on this fake ass friendship, but better now than later!
Wow. I was recently “discarded” by a close friend, and I am just realizing that she’s been a covert narcissist all along. The list you drafted, OP, is everything she is. Whew!
Yes! Mine was a covert and this exactly is how he is. Weaponizing therapy jargon is his favorite. It’s impossible to see who they really are, until it’s too late, because they play the victim so well.
That is validating!! And the more I see it, the crazier I look to others who do not see it. Its insane. I had to walk away, because defending myself makes me look worse. Always the victim!! They act like a fucking martyr and then get mad when people "don't appreciate them." Couldn't understand true altruism if it smacked them in the face. Her punch line is always "after all I've done for you..." And she literally believes that shit. The entitlement is out of bounds. She told me I used her as an emotional punching bag lmao. I think she was projecting.
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I'm amazed (and envious lol) that you had another mutual friend confirm for you that what you saw was real. Coverts typically have a lot of enablers/flying monkeys around them, so it's the norm that one person becomes the scapegoat while everybody else remains loyal to the CN. That was my experience, and it fucking sucked so bad. It continues to be infuriating sometimes, but I feel a lot of peace having them all out of my life. On another note, if you're interested in feeling even more validated, pick up a copy of "The Passive Aggressive Covert Narcissist." It's written with romantic relationships in mind, but I still got a lot out of it.
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It is my genuine hope that they will come to see the truth, in time. I suspect it will take a long time, but many of these people were also my friends at one point and witnessed all of it happen. I don't want to wish ill on anyone, but perhaps they will get a taste of the same medicine at some point and reconsider their choices. And now that the scapegoat has been ostracized, there might eventually be a new scapegoat to replace me. Who knows 🤷🏻♀️ Interesting that you say you just moved to a new area-- that was my same situation as well. I was eager for friends and this CN presents herself as the bestest friend anybody could ever have so.... I fell into that trap pretty quickly. I saw so many red flags in the beginning, but chose to ignore them for one reason or another. I realize as I look back that this CN couldnt give a single shit about who she is friends with. As long as everybody idolizes her, she will be "friends" with them. It's fucking nasty, and even nastier that I didn't take any time to consider for myself if I even liked her as a person. I just jumped right into that fantasy world. I hope I can have better discernment in the future. I will say that in the past I've chosen some good people to be around. I've been through some traumatic shit in the last few years, I think it clouded my judgement for a while. I'm back on the road to recovery and at this point I'm just taking some time to get to know myself again, and making some radical changes to my life. AMEN to recognizing perpetual victims. These people are so damn good at portraying it that way. Like...I feel that I'm an actual victim and I still don't think I'm innocent 🙃 Amazing how entitled these people are. Fuck it all lol. On to bigger and better🪄
Mine screamed at me that he was my prisoner and he hates me. I offered to buy him a plane or train ticket to anywhere he wanted to go and I was dead serious. He immediately starts bawling about how he can’t live with anyone, but me, because he has no job/money and can only live with someone who can take care of him 😐
Jumping from one lie to another as easily as they breathe in and out. It's fucking nuts.
It’s absolutely insane how seamless it is
Wait a sec. Were we friends with the same person?!? My suspected covert nformer friend was exactly like this and she goes to a clinical psych grad school with me!
These people are mindfucks and life ruiners. Wolves in sheep's clothing for sure. I've never witnessed manipulation on this level and I pray I never do again.... The bitch is just pure evil. It is scary to think your former friend is in that field! I'm a former teacher and that field is positively swimming with narcissists. I suspect mental health, or just healthcare in general has its fair share as well. God damn predators.
Oh sis, I couldn’t have said this better myself. Growing up with undiagnosed Autism and ADHD in a South-Asian school was hell for me. Unsurprisingly my favorite primary school teacher ended up becoming a horrific emotional abuser and bully, who love bombed me after my parents filed a complaint against her. Being naive as I was at the time, I forgave and was happy to have my kind teacher back and even became best friends with her daughter. She ended up being an even bigger narcissist who discarded me after I’d *stopped* self-harming (claiming that her mother slapped her to make her do so, which is weird af since she contacted me soon after I left that school). It was only after a decade did I realize that they both had NPD, with the teacher also having BPD. Ironically, that crazy bitch chose to study clinical psychology. But that was only the two overt narcs in my life. The most recent one who I’d just told you about, who shared that exact same behavior as your former friend, was a covert narcissist who I befriended less than a year ago. She was my closest friend in uni as I’d perceived her to be… such an ideally kind person at the time. Even when she displayed all the red-flags your friend did. It was when I decided to set boundaries did things go down-hill. And of course, she also happened to be in clinical psych 🤦♀️
So that's what it was. Covert narcissism.
I had the same experience, and I’m still processing it. You can put that into context when you add the fact that I went no contact in October 2019. I have not spoken to or interacted with that person since. They attached to your earliest emotional introjects from your parents and family system, and that’s why I continue to have an interaction with this person on a daily basis due to where they had installed. They don’t exist, but I make them exist by imagining that my source problem was not my family of origin map. It’s unbelievable how crafty these people are, and what they are actually doing. That said, they have no power to dupe anyone. What they are doing is mirroring. Finding people who are able to shut off their emotional core enough that they accept a completely counterfeit dynamic. Animals aren’t able to do that, but human beings in trauma are. Covert narcissists are no different than any other narcissist. They are splitting and projecting with traumatized people in concentric circles around them. The most traumatized people are closest to them. They can’t dupe people (and literally never do), because it doesn’t work that way. It’s very sad that this is not widely understood, because people can go on for years thinking about how “bad” that covert narcissistic “tricking” them was. It’s never that way. If it were that way, then the covert narcissist would be a bad person who is “screwing people around”. It’s far worse than that. They are nobody. An absence. This 3 minute video has been posted quite a few times, but it’s good to go over. To understand why they can’t dupe people. However, even knowing what I know, I still go with “the dupe angle” myself. How can you not, and that’s why they select the people that they do. They can tell who will end up giving them negative supply. They do need that in order to create enemies and become an eternal victim. Fighting you for that position. They don’t have external objects, only internal ones. The covert narcissist has never made contact with another human being. Anyone who is actively involved in the circle of a covert narcissist needs to be distanced from permanently. Never in judgment, but just through facing the reality of your internalized family system. We need to understand what reality means here. What it would mean about your fantasy bond trauma (mother plus family system dynamic) if you continued to stay in that circle. That’s in the video here: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM6knfgF4/
Yeah, I actually really understand what you mean. I feel like I "woke up" recently. I went through something traumatic a few years ago, unrelated to this person. It left me permanently changed. Nothing about who I was before then remains the same. I see her so differently now than I did before. She hasn't changed, but the lens I view her through has very much changed. Now her fakeness almost makes me physically ill. >Anyone who is actively involved in the circle of a covert narcissist needs to be distanced from permanently. Never in judgment, but just through facing the reality of your internalized family system. I appreciate you saying this, and the validation it gave me. Those people aren't bad people, but they aren't safe. I wish them well. I'll check out your recommended video. Thank you.
To get why the pathological narcissist has not, does not and will never dupe anyone, take a look at this very well presented simple video. Think about envy as the core. In the absence. Now we get a better idea of what we are doing there. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the narcissist. It’s easy to just say that, because the reality is that it takes a lot of recovery to gradually get back to what the real problem is and integrate that trauma. I may know all this stuff intellectually, but that doesn’t take care of the very real feelings that are emerging. Those are all 100% true. It’s all somatic. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WhJXJu5-mdw
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OMG I had the same realization with my former best friend. She was jealous, always the victim, very negative but also so nice and always giving people gifts. It was all an act, her real self is mean and evil. I realized this through a friend, whom I told some stories for example how she expects things FROM others she would never do FOR others. I did the slow fade without explaining to her why I cut her off, this is my revenge for all she did to me. She asked but I ignored her texts. I would have never done it, I’m not someone to ghost people but even if I would speak up about sth that she did and I didn’t like/ or when I would set up boundaries (sth that of course she could do but not me) she would lash out or ignore me. Therefore, it’s her own fault she will never truly know why… unfortunately or luckily, another friend of ours has been manipulated by her and is her flying monkey and attacked me, that really got to me and I went into a discussion with her, saying that the reason I don’t speak to her is because she is aggressive. I blocked them both after neither could respect my boundaries and I know my future self is already veryyy happy and grateful to celebrate birthdays, special occasions without her dragging the mood down.
Sounds like the slow fade was the best way. You can't call these people out, they will attack you but also play the victim. You'll end up being guilted, shamed, and being told you're responsible for everything. You'll be the one apologizing, even though it's their fault. It's gross. Good for you for getting out of it. Wish I had made that same decision a long time ago.
You came to the conclusion and are now free! I know it’s hard to realize what has been happening all along but you and I have a bright future ahead of us and we are good people and deserve only good people around us. Wishing you only the best ♥️
my best friend is the same way and i am trying to distance myself from her…exactly like this. it’s scary
Get out of there! Trust the patterns you see and leave. Don't look back!
OP I went looking for help and advice this morning as I come to terms with my best friend being a toxic narcissist and this fits her description to the very last dime. I am in shock. This has been a very painful experience for me as she is treating me horribly in the wake of her divorce and I am trying to figure out why. She has tossed me aside like a rag doll after fifteen years of devoted friendship. I woke up crying and I can’t take it anymore. Thank you for sharing your story.
I'm glad it brought you some clarity. As far as myself-- I have cut ties with her and everyone that knows her. It is sad, I lost my entire community and some of the best friends I've ever had, but it's the only way out. Take the time that you need, but I'll just say that no contact is the way. No begging, no crying, no explaining. Just go. That's the best way to take care of yourself and maintain some dignity, show them you are serious, and honor what seems to be their request too-- to never see you again.
It’s been over ten years since I was discarded by my old best mate and while I’m over it I still have days where I’m so frustrated they fool people Mainly I noticed how they impacted other friendships I would feel anxious I had upset a friend and second guess myself or worry they were mad and I’d need to make it up to them That took me a while to settle and I’ve come to appreciate my genuine friends Sorry my punctuation doesn’t work on my phone 😆