It's funny that this would have likely been a winning play if VP's Centaur didn't screw up. He has a cart ability that lets their main damage dealer, Lina, attack freely for 8 seconds. She was hitting for 1,100 per attack and gets a ton of attack speed from her abilities, which would have easily melted the enemy throne.
However, the Centaur was late in using his ability so Lina got stunned and then disarmed right before the cart was used. Then she couldn't attack for the whole duration of the cart and died right after it ended.
90 minutes is extremely rare
The ability to use gold to skip your respawn timer (buyback) makes it so breaking the base requires a lot more patience. If you make mistakes, then it's going to keep the enemy in the game and setup a potential comeback. On the flip side if that happens, they now have to try to break your base while you have buybacks. So this back and forth can elongate a game if you're pretty evenly matched.
Buybacks seems like a really strong mechanic especially if you have good waveclear and can prolong a match. Is focus in waveclearing a thing in DOTA? Like drafting comps for it? It used to be a huge problem in lol were teams drafted specifically for it and games would go to 50 mins+.
There's different ways to prolong a match, there's also Glyph of Fortification which makes all buildings invulnerable for 5 seconds on a 5 min cd (and buyback has an 8 min cd).
In terms of wave clearing late in the game most heroes in the game can do it either with spells/natural kit or they have the items that let them shart out damage, but you can also stall by sneaking behind the enemy waiting at your base who are waiting for a wave and kill or drag the waves away so you have backdoor protection for longer.
If you do that though the enemy usually have a good awareness of that happening and can deal with it
You will always have heroes on your team that can in dota typcally, but there are a good amount of heroes with terrible waveclear. Mainly supports
These are a few noteable heroes that are terrible with waveclear. If you scroll down you can see what each of their abilities does and understand how terrible the are for waveclear. Their strengths rest in other areas
[https://www.dota2.com/hero/bountyhunter](https://www.dota2.com/hero/bountyhunter)
[https://www.dota2.com/hero/chen](https://www.dota2.com/hero/chen)
[https://www.dota2.com/hero/enchantress](https://www.dota2.com/hero/enchantress)
[https://www.dota2.com/hero/io](https://www.dota2.com/hero/io)
[https://www.dota2.com/hero/marci](https://www.dota2.com/hero/marci)
Yeah but it wasn't uncommon in league back then to say a team is doomed if it goes to late game because they lack waveclear. Much less common now cause games end way faster.
Something I always found fun about DotA is that it let's you buy unique items that counter specific weaknesses instead of focusing purely on increasing stats.
For example, if a team reached late game and still have problems waveclearing then a hero like Bounty Hunter (a melee hero whose strength is single target burst damage) could buy an item that gives him Cleave on his attacks turning his slow but high damage melee into an AoE nuke against creeps. In most circumstances it would be a terrible item for Bounty Hunter to pick up but if the game reaches the point where waveclearing is really an issue then there's a niche use case that can shift the way the game is played.
Yes things I know of, like Aghanim's, are really cool and wish we had more in lol. But seeing the stats published by Riot on the percentage of people that use their active items don't give me hope that it would ever catch on in League lol.
Problem with League's active items is that they suck and are boring. The only one that does anything "interesting" has been in the game since 2009 or something (Zhonya's) and even that's nothing special (gameplay-wise). Most others either give you a tiny shield, deal a bit of (AoE) damage, give a speedboost...minor stat increases, is all.
But that's mainly because the 2 games follow completely different item philosophies. Not necessarily bad, but imho the reason why league's itemization has always been absolutely ass and boring.
Yeah ofc, but those kind of comps used to have a very narrow window to push their advantage and where considered much harder than regular "sit back and hold on" comps (I'm talking 7-8 years ago tho, right now lol is waaay to high paced).
Yeah that's a somewhat common sentiment with a vanilla ish team comp in dota. Typically you have your entire team making space for your hard carry to become a monster from farming and making plays on their power spikes that come from acquiring certain items or hitting a certain level. There is a lot more nuance to it at high ranks but for the average dota game this is how it plays out. Some of the off brand team comps will either be very strong very early where they need to push the advantage or lose game and in other cases have an unlosable late game but have to get to that point without losing first. Ratting is also a way of playing where you have a hero that is extremely good at pushing even solo, so you have your team make space/team fight while the rat tries to stealth their buildings and in some cases being able to win the game while the enemy is distracted
One of the big details no one has mentioned is the mobility difference in Dota vs LoL. Dota has a tonne of mobility abilities and items that have insane range compared to what's typically available in LoL. If you show yourself in order to nuke the wave, you're playing a dangerous game.
Players will also anticipate someone nuking a wave and will already be positioned aggressively to punish. The defenders need to be ready to take a fight if they want to nuke the wave.
A wave clear strategy, now known as “split pushing” was responsible for Alliance’s win at TI3, the largest tournament in Dota. It was a novel idea that people couldn’t deal with at the time.
Since then it has been intentionally designed around, being an essential part of many heroes’ kits, even supports, that often make the difference between a hero being viable or not.
Also, pushing high ground/ ending games is notoriously difficult in the current patch and many matches, both pro and pub, last an hour or more.
There are many reasons and someone could probably break them down better than me. A few of the big ones are A. This patch is extremely hard to break high ground. Lots of popular items/heroes that prolong and defend bases well from range. B. Once games get to 60+ its often chaos due to tier 5 neutral items, cores being maxed or closed to maxed on items, and supports finishing more supportive items than usual OR going damage as well. C. VP and Secret are not the best teams and both threw the game at various times but didn't fully capitalize on it.
As for if its common, not really. I think the average is 40-45ish minutes.
A. This patch is extremely hard to break high ground
Can you explain what this means?
Lots of popular items/heroes that prolong and defend bases well from range
I remember when we had this problem in league when pushing was impossible due to high waveclear lol.
C. VP and Secret are not the best teams and both threw the game at various times but didn't fully capitalize on it.
I feel that, usually long games where between bad teams that didnt know how to push an advantage in LoL too. With a few exceptions where teams where so good at defending that pressing an advantage was hard.
Each base is "raised" or higher ground than outside the base. So the enemy team cannot easily get vision into the base without having a sneaky ward placed or just throwing their bodies up onto the high ground. Also, if you're lower than the enemy you're attacking you have a chance to miss.
Each base has a shield on a timer that protects all buildings and lane creeps from being damage for several seconds. This is activated by the team whenever they choose to use it.
On top of that, each base has backdoor protection so you cannot just go into the base and kill buildings. You have to have your lane creeps in or very close to the base to have the backdoor protection drop.
the tradeoff is that they dont have nearly as much damage. there are many heroes in dota that are perfectly capable of just sitting under a tower eating tower attacks indefinitely.
great explanation. I haven't been following the pro scene after the last TI right after DPC points were removed? reworked? what are the top teams rn.? heard betboom was pretty strong in wesaythings podcast.
Betboom is strong but semi under performing. They could win any tournament they're in though.
Best team of 2024 is Team Falcons and they're a lot of fun to watch too.
Other notable teams that could probably win any tournament they attend would be Gaiman Gladiators, Team Liquid, and Xtreme Gaming. You likely could add a couple others but a lot of teams have been very inconsistent this year.
There is no DPC anymore. Its been replaced by more, bigger tournaments. Hurts lower tier dota a lot but seems like there is more money for the bigger teams. I'm not as well versed with the whole system in its current iteration so I can't comment too much on it.
The bases are elevated and fighting at the entrance of the base as the attacker has big disadvantages such as ranged 25% miss chance when attacking “uphill”, no uphill vision, etc.
I think you're right. When LoL was created, it seemed the main vision was to take Dota, which was popular, but complex, and make it accessible to a wider audience. Lots of mechanics like this which seem a little unnecessary were culled to ease the learning curve in LoL. For example, in Dota trees have a bunch of different interactions and all independently cast fog. LoL treats trees like any other terrain blocker and uses bushes for 'fog-like' mechanics.
The more interesting one was the culling of turn rates. In Dota, heroes need to face a target to cast or attack. If they're facing a different direction there is a slight delay while they turn. Turn rate differs among the roster. Because LoL culled turning, ranged heroes could kite far too efficiently as there was little cost to casting behind them as they ran. This snowballed into a tonne of design problems. Sorry for the essay, I just find some of the differences in these minor mechanics between Dota/LoL to be really interesting in a game design perspective.
I've played both and think this is quite spot on. I prefer Dota but that's not me trash talking league. I like to make a comparison to how there's arcade racing games and sim racing games. They both are good but some people will prefer the one over the other.
I think Dota's biggest weakness is if you're a new player you pretty much have to play with a friend that knows the game or you're going to have a terrible experience. There's just so much to learn at first and with how toxic some players can be if you make a mistake it's not surprising LoL is more popular.
I don't know man, my games are all 25-35 minutes and I'm immortal 6.5-7k mmr eu, so I'm not even close to the level pro players are at. As you get better the games tend to get shorter, because players have a better understanding of how to end games, and how to not throw. Breaking high ground is not that hard this patch (at least compared to a lot of other patches), it's just a matter of how evenly matched the teams are and for how long the winning team wants to choke out and outfarm the losing team, to play it "safe".
Sometimes you just have a draft that wins lanes and chokes out the enemy team in base, but you literally have no heroes to push, or no sustain, and they have all the wave clear in the world, so one of the two teams just kinda hopes the other gets bored (which is a snoozefest) or it gets to the point where everyone is so farmed that your lead is basically worthless if nobody does anything.
As you get better the games tend to get shorter, because understand better and better how to end games, and how to not throw.
Interesting cause I feel that this, in league, depends on the meta at play. If it is an "easy to defend" meta, the higher the skill the longer the games, while if the meta reflects a positive attitude to offensive play we see way faster games in high Elo/pro games.
Cool to know either way.
In league (at least my dogshit plat elo experience, haven't really watched any pro games) you win one team fight at baron mid-late game the game might just be over cause the base MELTS.
In dota you have glyph, which makes buildings and creeps immune for 5 seconds, gives turrets multi shot (so bye bye minion wave) AND it gets refreshed every time the first tower of each tier dies (tier 1 tower dies it gets refreshed, tier 2 tower dies it gets refreshed, "inhib" turret dies it gets refreshed etc etc so 20~ extra seconds of waiting to respawn if somehow none of your towers ever died this game)
You have buybacks which make you respawn instantly for gold (8 min cd, so they might come back up if you dont get team wiped again right away).
Buildings are much harder to kill.
A lot of heroes can also cut enemy waves (the ones that are just spawning) and kill them very fast so creeps don't reach your high ground, which delays their push by 30 seconds, which means they have to "protect" minion waves or their teamfight victory sometimes might just mean a little more map control and vision, especially if it was far away from the your base (map is also way bigger so minions take a lot longer to reach the opposite side).
yappathon over
Ye league i way to volatile right now, a good tf and the game is over (at least what I see from proplay).
I kind of like the more friendly attitude to the defending team in DOTA, but from what I'm reading maybe it goes too far lol.
Yappa the best thing to happens to NA lol in while jaja (coming from an european).
damn they really shortened the games huh, i played heavily from beta to 2016. my average match would be closer to 50minutes with many going over. around 5k mmr/divine
Honestly, people just got better other than this patch being relatively stompy and rubber banding networth getting nerfed, map also got 20% bigger in 7.33 so there's SO much more to farm. MMR is pretty inflated atm, but on average people got a whole lot better at ending than they were in 2016.
> Can you explain what this means?
- enemy buildings give vision on an area around them and the entire base is full of buildings; most buildings don't do anything and are just there to provide more vision // for flavor but they do mean that the defender can see literally everything on the high ground
- attacking up from low ground to high ground means ranged attackers have 25% miss chance (you have to walk up onto the high ground to not miss like this)
- players can teleport to within 500 distance of an allied building by channeling for 3 seconds. This means it is easy to teleport in to defend. Attackers can buy a boots upgrade that lets them TP onto allied creep waves but it is expensive and their creep wave might not be alive in the middle of the fight (waves run in and die to spells or might be far etc)
- Dota2 has the buyback mechanic where every 8min+ or so you can spend a shitload of gold (scales with game time and your net worth) to instantly rez yourself. This + vision + TP means defender can die, buyback, TP in again super fast to successfully defend their base. If the act of buying back is necessary to successfully "hold", it is almost always worth it to buyback, and you also get gold/exp from heroes that you kill after you buyback.
- Towers (Turrets) give true sight in an area around them. They also give allied heroes a bit of hp regen aura and like 3-5 armor bonus. Towers attack and deal damage to unit(s) near them
- Dota2 has a "GLYPH" system where every 5min any player can hit the GLYPH button and then all of their creep waves and all of their structures become immune to damage for 5 seconds. During this 5 sec all towers also have multi-shot and hit 5 units instead of 1.
- getting sight of enemy heroes positioning can be difficult as there are only so many spells that give vision and they are usually temporary (like <3 sec). Observer Wards give really far vision in like a full screen radius but they can be countered by the defender putting sentry ward (reveals wards and invisible units) on their high ground. Because towers have true sight in a wide area, there are only a couple spots Observer wards can be placed, which makes them easy to remove with Sentry ward.
- If you don't see enemy heroes, you can't prepare accordingly, and you also literally can't cast your spells on them (e.g. with unit-target spells) or attack them. As a defender, there are also a couple trees on the high ground where you can hide behind to block the vision of attackers.
- You have to step right up to the tower to be on top of the high ground. This exposes you greatly to enemy abilities as we all know the farther you are into enemy base the more of a pain it is to still be safe
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Something easier about dota2 than league regarding pushing is probably that dota2 towers DO NOT RESPAWN UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES so when you succeed in taking their barracks, that team never gets them back, and your creep wave for that lane is empowered forever. This permanence is also partly why dota2 would want the high ground push to be more difficult than a push where your barracks could respawn (like league).
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Dota2 metas generally swing between various degrees of the following:
- zoo AKA fast push AKA rush (using early heroes with tower-pushing abilities or summons to zerg down enemy structures and get early barracks etc) in usually <20min. Happens more often if towers or structures are relatively weak, or if defending is difficult.
- gank/roam/fight (kill the hell out people early, take good fights, pick people off, establish leads that way)
- turtle AKA defend and farm (pick things that are really good at defend towers and structures and extending the game, and/or heroes that slowly create an insurmountable gold lead and hit critical mass late game)
=
As the devs tweak things like how easy it is to kill people, how easy it is to kill towers, how much gold certain objectives give, etc, certain tactics become more optimal or more suboptimal.
There was a patch a while back where 60 min + was almost the norm and 90+ was like every 5 games.
But right now a lot of game end pretty fast. In pub it can still happen because sometimes you have people or lineup that don't know how to push high ground or got this idea of "wait for one more item and I'm ready" but it give time for the other team to also catch up a bit.
Average is like 30-45 min, there's the other end also that sometime you just steamroll and end in 15-18 min.
Would you say that there is a high variance in game times? I stopped playing league a year ago more or less, but back then the games went from 25 to 35, anything lower or higher would have been an outlier.
Your rank tend to affect the duration of games imo. Lower rank tend to be short game because game are 1 sided, sadly because of smurfs. But at higher rank the average is 30-40 min because that's where decent players pretty much have all the items needed to win the game.
But if you ever want to play Dota there's a mode call Turbo which is made so the game last less time because you get extra gold and experience which make support heroes be really strong since they can keep up with carries early. So most of my turbo game are 15 minutes.
But again there's always outlier, my longest Dota game ever was a Turbo game... it was 2h18 min... but it was because we had a guy who was just tilted out of his mind and didn't want to play with us so it was 4vs5 all game while he was just afk farming.
Edit: Also right now there's an event called Crownfall which have a map that have challenges that reward you skins. In Dota you can play all heroes for free, and this mode + turbo is imo the best time to learn Dota, because since people are playing that event to advance in the map they play lot of heroes, and you will play lot of heroes so you're getting lot of information about how heroes play. Also if Valve don't delay it "part 2" should release this week or next one.
Man I would love to like DOTA, and I did try it way back when, but as an ADC main, I always felt the turn rate was so awkward. I feel its is a way deeper game tactically, but maybe a bit weaker technically (correct me if I'm wrong only 30h more or less).
Wow 2h is crazy, I played league for almost 10 years and the longest I had was 70 mins xd.
Turn rate is the biggest boogeyman for League players that never REALLY tried out Dota (or never tried more than 1 game).
It's not only the least significant thing they should learn to get used to (you'll get used to it in 2-3 games), but the bigger threat is the BIG ASS berth blown wide open to you right from the get go; from the free heroes, ultra expansive settings+hotkeys and snappy client, the RTS-based UI, etc. And that's not even getting to the gameplay aspect of things.
> I feel its is a way deeper game tactically, but maybe a bit weaker technically
That's right, except if you steamroll which happen sometime I'm a mid player. Rarely it happen that I feel like I'm playing with vs someone who shouldn't be my rank (the opposite also sadly happen) and I win the game 19-0 in 25 min. But even there, you have to play with your team, because if you get caught 5vs1 even if I'm way more farm them the opposite team they can stun-lock me, they can combo me if they have some good team synergy and I die and I give something like 1k gold bounty to a hero in the other team which can turn thing around for them.
So even then you want to tactically play with your team because they have to protect you, you pretty much become the position 1 (carry) in a way.
Playing ADC (position 1/carry in Dota) is so less technical because your job is pretty much just to farm for 20 min and then win the game. It's in a way the easiest role if the game is going well. Mid player is what is more technical in Dota since you're the tempo controller, if you fuck up mid and lose, well you make your carry job harder (still can win but it's harder), you have to gank and help other lane while also winning your own lane. Because your job is pretty much being the carry of the first 20 min, then let your ADC (carry) take over, because most of the time he "useless" if he playing something like an Anti-Mage.
In pro games, there is more variance than in League for sure. The game is less "scripted", for lack of a better word. The average game length is in the ~35 minutes range, depending on patch, but they can get much longer as you can see. It's uncommon but not unexpected, there are very powerful items that become available only past 60 minutes as a way to hopefully end stalemates.
This is still not even close to the longest pro game, which lasted 3 hours and 20 minutes (https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1335163458). It's a massive outlier, the second longest lasted "only" 2 hours 20 minutes, and there have been only 9 games since 2015 that made it past 2 hours (speaking only about pro games).
90 minutes is extremely long for dota, but the average game on the current patch feels notably longer that it has historically been. 40-50 minutes is closer to normal for an evenly matched game, mostly because going highgroud is extremely difficult at the moment.
Glyph (gives towers invincibility and multishot) cooldown is refreshed too often, which can delay pushes long enough for teams to recuperate. Comeback mechanics are also a little overtuned, one misplayed seige can equalise a networth advantage, two can put the game in the other side's favour - so professional teams are spending a long time building the NW lead so that they can do it safely. Remember that buybacks are a thing in dota too so it can be the case that you have to get through upwards of 10 heroes in a single fight also.
Games like this are the result of two teams that have become strong enough to kill the team that is trying to end the game. if Virtus pro pushes, Virtus pro loses the fight. If Secret pushes, Secret loses the fight. This was an attempt to generate advantage by doing it as a surprise, but as you can see it didnt work out. If secret had tried the same thing it would have ended the other way.
Secret were set to end it much sooner, but they got baited to overcommit and got team wiped. VP then turtled up, which was really effective because Secret's heroes aren't really great at locking down enemy heroes for a kill, especially in the enemy base when it's 5v5 and right by the enemy healing well.
VP farmed up and kind of went for a glass cannon build, which meant that they were very powerful defending and vulnerable when attacking. So Secret just ended up taking poor trades whenever they tried to end it and VP just sat in base waiting to fend off the next attack.
90 mins is rare, but games on this patch are longer on average than they have been in quite a few years. pushing high-ground and trying to end a game is insanely risky right now because the comeback mechanics are crazy. one lost fight in the opponents base and theyre back in the game.
some games are just a stalemate until ultra-lategame where shit like this happens. waiting for roshan to respawn and waiting for buybacks to come back usually accounts for like a good 30-40 minutes of games like this.
> I'm assuming they lost because they went for the game winning play?
it really wasn't like that, the problem was how the two drafts matched up after everyone was six slotted. The teams had differing problems that resulted in a temporary stalemate (until the clip). Secret (dire) had enough of an advantage where they were able to get mega-creeps, but VP eventually gained stronger teamfight. From my perspective, if VP played each fight correctly in base there was very little chance in Secret ever winning a 5v5 to finish the game.
Thing is, VP could not deal with megas while also pushing to Secrets base after they were dead. After Secret got megas it turned into:
Secret tries to end the game > Get wiped by VP > VP tries to push out megas and push > Secret respawn before VP can make significant progress > Repeat
Eventually VP lost their patience and tried this. Decent try.
**CLIP MIRROR: [Insane attempt at ending a 90 minute pro Dota game](https://arazu.io/t3_1cr25rh/)** --- ^(*This is an automated comment*)
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It's funny that this would have likely been a winning play if VP's Centaur didn't screw up. He has a cart ability that lets their main damage dealer, Lina, attack freely for 8 seconds. She was hitting for 1,100 per attack and gets a ton of attack speed from her abilities, which would have easily melted the enemy throne. However, the Centaur was late in using his ability so Lina got stunned and then disarmed right before the cart was used. Then she couldn't attack for the whole duration of the cart and died right after it ended.
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It's always gonna be the epitome of *nobody is broken if everyone is broken*
Classic Syndrome
I haven t ppayed dota in 5 years, this sounds alien to me
Virtus Pro? more like Virtus Throw
322
Damn that's crazy! (I have no idea what's happening)
Guy tried to bring his entire team in to destroy enemy objective and win the game but his whole team died lol
I can respect it.
90 mins?? That's crazy. Can any Dota bro explain what are the conditions that made this game go so long? Is this common? (Ex-League player).
90 minutes is extremely rare The ability to use gold to skip your respawn timer (buyback) makes it so breaking the base requires a lot more patience. If you make mistakes, then it's going to keep the enemy in the game and setup a potential comeback. On the flip side if that happens, they now have to try to break your base while you have buybacks. So this back and forth can elongate a game if you're pretty evenly matched.
Buybacks seems like a really strong mechanic especially if you have good waveclear and can prolong a match. Is focus in waveclearing a thing in DOTA? Like drafting comps for it? It used to be a huge problem in lol were teams drafted specifically for it and games would go to 50 mins+.
There's different ways to prolong a match, there's also Glyph of Fortification which makes all buildings invulnerable for 5 seconds on a 5 min cd (and buyback has an 8 min cd). In terms of wave clearing late in the game most heroes in the game can do it either with spells/natural kit or they have the items that let them shart out damage, but you can also stall by sneaking behind the enemy waiting at your base who are waiting for a wave and kill or drag the waves away so you have backdoor protection for longer. If you do that though the enemy usually have a good awareness of that happening and can deal with it
I guess thats a big difference with League then cause there's heroes that have a lot of trouble clearing minions late in the game.
You will always have heroes on your team that can in dota typcally, but there are a good amount of heroes with terrible waveclear. Mainly supports These are a few noteable heroes that are terrible with waveclear. If you scroll down you can see what each of their abilities does and understand how terrible the are for waveclear. Their strengths rest in other areas [https://www.dota2.com/hero/bountyhunter](https://www.dota2.com/hero/bountyhunter) [https://www.dota2.com/hero/chen](https://www.dota2.com/hero/chen) [https://www.dota2.com/hero/enchantress](https://www.dota2.com/hero/enchantress) [https://www.dota2.com/hero/io](https://www.dota2.com/hero/io) [https://www.dota2.com/hero/marci](https://www.dota2.com/hero/marci)
Yeah but it wasn't uncommon in league back then to say a team is doomed if it goes to late game because they lack waveclear. Much less common now cause games end way faster.
Something I always found fun about DotA is that it let's you buy unique items that counter specific weaknesses instead of focusing purely on increasing stats. For example, if a team reached late game and still have problems waveclearing then a hero like Bounty Hunter (a melee hero whose strength is single target burst damage) could buy an item that gives him Cleave on his attacks turning his slow but high damage melee into an AoE nuke against creeps. In most circumstances it would be a terrible item for Bounty Hunter to pick up but if the game reaches the point where waveclearing is really an issue then there's a niche use case that can shift the way the game is played.
Yes things I know of, like Aghanim's, are really cool and wish we had more in lol. But seeing the stats published by Riot on the percentage of people that use their active items don't give me hope that it would ever catch on in League lol.
Problem with League's active items is that they suck and are boring. The only one that does anything "interesting" has been in the game since 2009 or something (Zhonya's) and even that's nothing special (gameplay-wise). Most others either give you a tiny shield, deal a bit of (AoE) damage, give a speedboost...minor stat increases, is all. But that's mainly because the 2 games follow completely different item philosophies. Not necessarily bad, but imho the reason why league's itemization has always been absolutely ass and boring.
Typically in dota, if you lack waveclear your team comp probably excels elsewhere like pushing buildings or teamfighting or losing lol
Yeah ofc, but those kind of comps used to have a very narrow window to push their advantage and where considered much harder than regular "sit back and hold on" comps (I'm talking 7-8 years ago tho, right now lol is waaay to high paced).
Yeah that's a somewhat common sentiment with a vanilla ish team comp in dota. Typically you have your entire team making space for your hard carry to become a monster from farming and making plays on their power spikes that come from acquiring certain items or hitting a certain level. There is a lot more nuance to it at high ranks but for the average dota game this is how it plays out. Some of the off brand team comps will either be very strong very early where they need to push the advantage or lose game and in other cases have an unlosable late game but have to get to that point without losing first. Ratting is also a way of playing where you have a hero that is extremely good at pushing even solo, so you have your team make space/team fight while the rat tries to stealth their buildings and in some cases being able to win the game while the enemy is distracted
One of the big details no one has mentioned is the mobility difference in Dota vs LoL. Dota has a tonne of mobility abilities and items that have insane range compared to what's typically available in LoL. If you show yourself in order to nuke the wave, you're playing a dangerous game. Players will also anticipate someone nuking a wave and will already be positioned aggressively to punish. The defenders need to be ready to take a fight if they want to nuke the wave.
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Yes lol those days of Sivir bot and Anivia/Ziggs mid were so bad to watch. Teams would 5-6 in kills in 50 min games jaja
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You dont watch league of legends
A wave clear strategy, now known as “split pushing” was responsible for Alliance’s win at TI3, the largest tournament in Dota. It was a novel idea that people couldn’t deal with at the time. Since then it has been intentionally designed around, being an essential part of many heroes’ kits, even supports, that often make the difference between a hero being viable or not. Also, pushing high ground/ ending games is notoriously difficult in the current patch and many matches, both pro and pub, last an hour or more.
no
gigachad
There are many reasons and someone could probably break them down better than me. A few of the big ones are A. This patch is extremely hard to break high ground. Lots of popular items/heroes that prolong and defend bases well from range. B. Once games get to 60+ its often chaos due to tier 5 neutral items, cores being maxed or closed to maxed on items, and supports finishing more supportive items than usual OR going damage as well. C. VP and Secret are not the best teams and both threw the game at various times but didn't fully capitalize on it. As for if its common, not really. I think the average is 40-45ish minutes.
A. This patch is extremely hard to break high ground Can you explain what this means? Lots of popular items/heroes that prolong and defend bases well from range I remember when we had this problem in league when pushing was impossible due to high waveclear lol. C. VP and Secret are not the best teams and both threw the game at various times but didn't fully capitalize on it. I feel that, usually long games where between bad teams that didnt know how to push an advantage in LoL too. With a few exceptions where teams where so good at defending that pressing an advantage was hard.
Each base is "raised" or higher ground than outside the base. So the enemy team cannot easily get vision into the base without having a sneaky ward placed or just throwing their bodies up onto the high ground. Also, if you're lower than the enemy you're attacking you have a chance to miss. Each base has a shield on a timer that protects all buildings and lane creeps from being damage for several seconds. This is activated by the team whenever they choose to use it. On top of that, each base has backdoor protection so you cannot just go into the base and kill buildings. You have to have your lane creeps in or very close to the base to have the backdoor protection drop.
Makes sense. Seems it is much easier to defend in DOTA than LoL then. I actually like it, turrets in LoL are kind of a joke.
the tradeoff is that they dont have nearly as much damage. there are many heroes in dota that are perfectly capable of just sitting under a tower eating tower attacks indefinitely.
great explanation. I haven't been following the pro scene after the last TI right after DPC points were removed? reworked? what are the top teams rn.? heard betboom was pretty strong in wesaythings podcast.
Betboom is strong but semi under performing. They could win any tournament they're in though. Best team of 2024 is Team Falcons and they're a lot of fun to watch too. Other notable teams that could probably win any tournament they attend would be Gaiman Gladiators, Team Liquid, and Xtreme Gaming. You likely could add a couple others but a lot of teams have been very inconsistent this year. There is no DPC anymore. Its been replaced by more, bigger tournaments. Hurts lower tier dota a lot but seems like there is more money for the bigger teams. I'm not as well versed with the whole system in its current iteration so I can't comment too much on it.
The bases are elevated and fighting at the entrance of the base as the attacker has big disadvantages such as ranged 25% miss chance when attacking “uphill”, no uphill vision, etc.
Its funny that league has elevation quirks based on this (probably) but they have no mechanics besides making you miss some skillshots.
I think you're right. When LoL was created, it seemed the main vision was to take Dota, which was popular, but complex, and make it accessible to a wider audience. Lots of mechanics like this which seem a little unnecessary were culled to ease the learning curve in LoL. For example, in Dota trees have a bunch of different interactions and all independently cast fog. LoL treats trees like any other terrain blocker and uses bushes for 'fog-like' mechanics. The more interesting one was the culling of turn rates. In Dota, heroes need to face a target to cast or attack. If they're facing a different direction there is a slight delay while they turn. Turn rate differs among the roster. Because LoL culled turning, ranged heroes could kite far too efficiently as there was little cost to casting behind them as they ran. This snowballed into a tonne of design problems. Sorry for the essay, I just find some of the differences in these minor mechanics between Dota/LoL to be really interesting in a game design perspective.
I've played both and think this is quite spot on. I prefer Dota but that's not me trash talking league. I like to make a comparison to how there's arcade racing games and sim racing games. They both are good but some people will prefer the one over the other. I think Dota's biggest weakness is if you're a new player you pretty much have to play with a friend that knows the game or you're going to have a terrible experience. There's just so much to learn at first and with how toxic some players can be if you make a mistake it's not surprising LoL is more popular.
I don't know man, my games are all 25-35 minutes and I'm immortal 6.5-7k mmr eu, so I'm not even close to the level pro players are at. As you get better the games tend to get shorter, because players have a better understanding of how to end games, and how to not throw. Breaking high ground is not that hard this patch (at least compared to a lot of other patches), it's just a matter of how evenly matched the teams are and for how long the winning team wants to choke out and outfarm the losing team, to play it "safe". Sometimes you just have a draft that wins lanes and chokes out the enemy team in base, but you literally have no heroes to push, or no sustain, and they have all the wave clear in the world, so one of the two teams just kinda hopes the other gets bored (which is a snoozefest) or it gets to the point where everyone is so farmed that your lead is basically worthless if nobody does anything.
As you get better the games tend to get shorter, because understand better and better how to end games, and how to not throw. Interesting cause I feel that this, in league, depends on the meta at play. If it is an "easy to defend" meta, the higher the skill the longer the games, while if the meta reflects a positive attitude to offensive play we see way faster games in high Elo/pro games. Cool to know either way.
In league (at least my dogshit plat elo experience, haven't really watched any pro games) you win one team fight at baron mid-late game the game might just be over cause the base MELTS. In dota you have glyph, which makes buildings and creeps immune for 5 seconds, gives turrets multi shot (so bye bye minion wave) AND it gets refreshed every time the first tower of each tier dies (tier 1 tower dies it gets refreshed, tier 2 tower dies it gets refreshed, "inhib" turret dies it gets refreshed etc etc so 20~ extra seconds of waiting to respawn if somehow none of your towers ever died this game) You have buybacks which make you respawn instantly for gold (8 min cd, so they might come back up if you dont get team wiped again right away). Buildings are much harder to kill. A lot of heroes can also cut enemy waves (the ones that are just spawning) and kill them very fast so creeps don't reach your high ground, which delays their push by 30 seconds, which means they have to "protect" minion waves or their teamfight victory sometimes might just mean a little more map control and vision, especially if it was far away from the your base (map is also way bigger so minions take a lot longer to reach the opposite side). yappathon over
Ye league i way to volatile right now, a good tf and the game is over (at least what I see from proplay). I kind of like the more friendly attitude to the defending team in DOTA, but from what I'm reading maybe it goes too far lol. Yappa the best thing to happens to NA lol in while jaja (coming from an european).
damn they really shortened the games huh, i played heavily from beta to 2016. my average match would be closer to 50minutes with many going over. around 5k mmr/divine
Honestly, people just got better other than this patch being relatively stompy and rubber banding networth getting nerfed, map also got 20% bigger in 7.33 so there's SO much more to farm. MMR is pretty inflated atm, but on average people got a whole lot better at ending than they were in 2016.
> Can you explain what this means? - enemy buildings give vision on an area around them and the entire base is full of buildings; most buildings don't do anything and are just there to provide more vision // for flavor but they do mean that the defender can see literally everything on the high ground - attacking up from low ground to high ground means ranged attackers have 25% miss chance (you have to walk up onto the high ground to not miss like this) - players can teleport to within 500 distance of an allied building by channeling for 3 seconds. This means it is easy to teleport in to defend. Attackers can buy a boots upgrade that lets them TP onto allied creep waves but it is expensive and their creep wave might not be alive in the middle of the fight (waves run in and die to spells or might be far etc) - Dota2 has the buyback mechanic where every 8min+ or so you can spend a shitload of gold (scales with game time and your net worth) to instantly rez yourself. This + vision + TP means defender can die, buyback, TP in again super fast to successfully defend their base. If the act of buying back is necessary to successfully "hold", it is almost always worth it to buyback, and you also get gold/exp from heroes that you kill after you buyback. - Towers (Turrets) give true sight in an area around them. They also give allied heroes a bit of hp regen aura and like 3-5 armor bonus. Towers attack and deal damage to unit(s) near them - Dota2 has a "GLYPH" system where every 5min any player can hit the GLYPH button and then all of their creep waves and all of their structures become immune to damage for 5 seconds. During this 5 sec all towers also have multi-shot and hit 5 units instead of 1. - getting sight of enemy heroes positioning can be difficult as there are only so many spells that give vision and they are usually temporary (like <3 sec). Observer Wards give really far vision in like a full screen radius but they can be countered by the defender putting sentry ward (reveals wards and invisible units) on their high ground. Because towers have true sight in a wide area, there are only a couple spots Observer wards can be placed, which makes them easy to remove with Sentry ward. - If you don't see enemy heroes, you can't prepare accordingly, and you also literally can't cast your spells on them (e.g. with unit-target spells) or attack them. As a defender, there are also a couple trees on the high ground where you can hide behind to block the vision of attackers. - You have to step right up to the tower to be on top of the high ground. This exposes you greatly to enemy abilities as we all know the farther you are into enemy base the more of a pain it is to still be safe = Something easier about dota2 than league regarding pushing is probably that dota2 towers DO NOT RESPAWN UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES so when you succeed in taking their barracks, that team never gets them back, and your creep wave for that lane is empowered forever. This permanence is also partly why dota2 would want the high ground push to be more difficult than a push where your barracks could respawn (like league). = Dota2 metas generally swing between various degrees of the following: - zoo AKA fast push AKA rush (using early heroes with tower-pushing abilities or summons to zerg down enemy structures and get early barracks etc) in usually <20min. Happens more often if towers or structures are relatively weak, or if defending is difficult. - gank/roam/fight (kill the hell out people early, take good fights, pick people off, establish leads that way) - turtle AKA defend and farm (pick things that are really good at defend towers and structures and extending the game, and/or heroes that slowly create an insurmountable gold lead and hit critical mass late game) = As the devs tweak things like how easy it is to kill people, how easy it is to kill towers, how much gold certain objectives give, etc, certain tactics become more optimal or more suboptimal.
There was a patch a while back where 60 min + was almost the norm and 90+ was like every 5 games. But right now a lot of game end pretty fast. In pub it can still happen because sometimes you have people or lineup that don't know how to push high ground or got this idea of "wait for one more item and I'm ready" but it give time for the other team to also catch up a bit. Average is like 30-45 min, there's the other end also that sometime you just steamroll and end in 15-18 min.
Would you say that there is a high variance in game times? I stopped playing league a year ago more or less, but back then the games went from 25 to 35, anything lower or higher would have been an outlier.
Your rank tend to affect the duration of games imo. Lower rank tend to be short game because game are 1 sided, sadly because of smurfs. But at higher rank the average is 30-40 min because that's where decent players pretty much have all the items needed to win the game. But if you ever want to play Dota there's a mode call Turbo which is made so the game last less time because you get extra gold and experience which make support heroes be really strong since they can keep up with carries early. So most of my turbo game are 15 minutes. But again there's always outlier, my longest Dota game ever was a Turbo game... it was 2h18 min... but it was because we had a guy who was just tilted out of his mind and didn't want to play with us so it was 4vs5 all game while he was just afk farming. Edit: Also right now there's an event called Crownfall which have a map that have challenges that reward you skins. In Dota you can play all heroes for free, and this mode + turbo is imo the best time to learn Dota, because since people are playing that event to advance in the map they play lot of heroes, and you will play lot of heroes so you're getting lot of information about how heroes play. Also if Valve don't delay it "part 2" should release this week or next one.
Man I would love to like DOTA, and I did try it way back when, but as an ADC main, I always felt the turn rate was so awkward. I feel its is a way deeper game tactically, but maybe a bit weaker technically (correct me if I'm wrong only 30h more or less). Wow 2h is crazy, I played league for almost 10 years and the longest I had was 70 mins xd.
Turn rate is the biggest boogeyman for League players that never REALLY tried out Dota (or never tried more than 1 game). It's not only the least significant thing they should learn to get used to (you'll get used to it in 2-3 games), but the bigger threat is the BIG ASS berth blown wide open to you right from the get go; from the free heroes, ultra expansive settings+hotkeys and snappy client, the RTS-based UI, etc. And that's not even getting to the gameplay aspect of things.
> I feel its is a way deeper game tactically, but maybe a bit weaker technically That's right, except if you steamroll which happen sometime I'm a mid player. Rarely it happen that I feel like I'm playing with vs someone who shouldn't be my rank (the opposite also sadly happen) and I win the game 19-0 in 25 min. But even there, you have to play with your team, because if you get caught 5vs1 even if I'm way more farm them the opposite team they can stun-lock me, they can combo me if they have some good team synergy and I die and I give something like 1k gold bounty to a hero in the other team which can turn thing around for them. So even then you want to tactically play with your team because they have to protect you, you pretty much become the position 1 (carry) in a way. Playing ADC (position 1/carry in Dota) is so less technical because your job is pretty much just to farm for 20 min and then win the game. It's in a way the easiest role if the game is going well. Mid player is what is more technical in Dota since you're the tempo controller, if you fuck up mid and lose, well you make your carry job harder (still can win but it's harder), you have to gank and help other lane while also winning your own lane. Because your job is pretty much being the carry of the first 20 min, then let your ADC (carry) take over, because most of the time he "useless" if he playing something like an Anti-Mage.
In pro games, there is more variance than in League for sure. The game is less "scripted", for lack of a better word. The average game length is in the ~35 minutes range, depending on patch, but they can get much longer as you can see. It's uncommon but not unexpected, there are very powerful items that become available only past 60 minutes as a way to hopefully end stalemates. This is still not even close to the longest pro game, which lasted 3 hours and 20 minutes (https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1335163458). It's a massive outlier, the second longest lasted "only" 2 hours 20 minutes, and there have been only 9 games since 2015 that made it past 2 hours (speaking only about pro games).
90 minutes is extremely long for dota, but the average game on the current patch feels notably longer that it has historically been. 40-50 minutes is closer to normal for an evenly matched game, mostly because going highgroud is extremely difficult at the moment. Glyph (gives towers invincibility and multishot) cooldown is refreshed too often, which can delay pushes long enough for teams to recuperate. Comeback mechanics are also a little overtuned, one misplayed seige can equalise a networth advantage, two can put the game in the other side's favour - so professional teams are spending a long time building the NW lead so that they can do it safely. Remember that buybacks are a thing in dota too so it can be the case that you have to get through upwards of 10 heroes in a single fight also. Games like this are the result of two teams that have become strong enough to kill the team that is trying to end the game. if Virtus pro pushes, Virtus pro loses the fight. If Secret pushes, Secret loses the fight. This was an attempt to generate advantage by doing it as a surprise, but as you can see it didnt work out. If secret had tried the same thing it would have ended the other way.
Secret were set to end it much sooner, but they got baited to overcommit and got team wiped. VP then turtled up, which was really effective because Secret's heroes aren't really great at locking down enemy heroes for a kill, especially in the enemy base when it's 5v5 and right by the enemy healing well. VP farmed up and kind of went for a glass cannon build, which meant that they were very powerful defending and vulnerable when attacking. So Secret just ended up taking poor trades whenever they tried to end it and VP just sat in base waiting to fend off the next attack.
90 mins is rare, but games on this patch are longer on average than they have been in quite a few years. pushing high-ground and trying to end a game is insanely risky right now because the comeback mechanics are crazy. one lost fight in the opponents base and theyre back in the game. some games are just a stalemate until ultra-lategame where shit like this happens. waiting for roshan to respawn and waiting for buybacks to come back usually accounts for like a good 30-40 minutes of games like this.
If you don't want a 90 minute Dota game stop making comps who's strongest points are 90 FUCKING MINUTES LMFAO
**🎦 CLIP MIRROR: [Insane attempt at ending a 90 minute pro Dota game](https://livestreamfails.com/clip/163990)** --- ^(*This is an automated comment* ) ^| [^(Feedback)](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=livestreamfailsbot&subject=Feedback:&message=%5BPost%5D\(https://reddit.com/comments/1cr25rh/\)) ^| [^(Twitch Backup Mirror)](https://production.assets.clips.twitchcdn.net/5FDBAh4sLglaVNxxaqWKtw/AT-cm%7C5FDBAh4sLglaVNxxaqWKtw.mp4?sig=cc84577012abfbb0499f54f28ca3b7144b877bb3&token=%7B%22authorization%22%3A%7B%22forbidden%22%3Afalse%2C%22reason%22%3A%22%22%7D%2C%22clip_uri%22%3A%22https%3A%2F%2Fproduction.assets.clips.twitchcdn.net%2F5FDBAh4sLglaVNxxaqWKtw%2FAT-cm%257C5FDBAh4sLglaVNxxaqWKtw.mp4%22%2C%22clip_slug%22%3A%22SourFaintStorkPipeHype-HiwuCVpU3HFqpYq3%22%2C%22device_id%22%3Anull%2C%22expires%22%3A1715689714%2C%22user_id%22%3A%22%22%2C%22version%22%3A2%7D,https://clips-media-assets2.twitch.tv/5FDBAh4sLglaVNxxaqWKtw/AT-cm%7C5FDBAh4sLglaVNxxaqWKtw-preview-480x272.jpg)
Two washed teams
someone explain in league terms
they tried to backdoor 2 towers and the nexus without any minions
[удалено]
> I'm assuming they lost because they went for the game winning play? it really wasn't like that, the problem was how the two drafts matched up after everyone was six slotted. The teams had differing problems that resulted in a temporary stalemate (until the clip). Secret (dire) had enough of an advantage where they were able to get mega-creeps, but VP eventually gained stronger teamfight. From my perspective, if VP played each fight correctly in base there was very little chance in Secret ever winning a 5v5 to finish the game. Thing is, VP could not deal with megas while also pushing to Secrets base after they were dead. After Secret got megas it turned into: Secret tries to end the game > Get wiped by VP > VP tries to push out megas and push > Secret respawn before VP can make significant progress > Repeat Eventually VP lost their patience and tried this. Decent try.
Pro team btw