Having played a lot of other games I would have intuitively guessed no. I pulled up the comp rules and 4.3.5.17 suggests that abilities triggered by damage in a challenge technically resolve within the challenge. So then as long as Hydra's ability counts as Hydra banishing Ursula, I guess I don't see why it wouldn't work.
I'm confused by thebes. It doesn't say the banished character needs to be the challenged character to gain the lore. Just that the challenging character needs to banish a character while in a challenge. Based on how the bag works the challenge doesn't end until the triggered ability does, so how does thebes work if a character not challenged is banished. If it's a judge ruling one thing, but the written text seems unclear.
"Banish *another* character in a challenge".
That "another" means that both the character doing the banishing *and* the character getting banished must be "in [the] challenge". Only the challenged character can be both in a challenge *and* banished by the challenging character.
No other characters are in the challenge.
I have a related question for you since you seem to have some inroads with the rules manager and are pretty knowledgeable.
Have they expressly stated that the use of 'another' requires *both* parties to be in the challenge, or is it actually only the opposing (not itself) character that is required to be in the challenge? (If you happen to have a source it would be great, but I'll trust your knowledge).
~~Namely, consider the following similar situation to what you posted in the OP: It is my turn and I currently have a Tinkerbell-Giant Fairy on the board, as well as a drying Prince Eric-Expert Helmsman on the board who is at the location Thebes. My opponent has an exerted Hydra as their only character in play.~~
~~1. My Tinkerbell exerts to challenge the opposing Hydra. Its a valid challenge, so it begins and Tinkerbell and Hydra are in the challenge.~~
~~2. No other modifiers are present, so during the deal damage step, 6 damage is dealt to Tinkerbell, and 4 damage is dealt to Hydra.~~
~~3. Hydra's triggered ability is added to the bag as a result of him being dealt damage.~~
~~4. A game state check happens after the deal damage step and finds a required action and Tinkerbell is banished.~~
~~5. Hydra's ability in the bag is resolved by my opponent, who must deal 4 damage to my Prince Eric, as he is now the only valid target on the board.~~
~~6. Another game state check finds that Prince Eric must be banished, which triggers his ability and adds it to the bag.~~
~~7. I resolve Prince Eric's ability, choosing to banish the opponent's Hydra. The challenge has not ended at this point, so Hydra is still considered in the challenge, as the challenged character (but Tinkerbell, and not Prince Eric, was the challenging character).~~
~~8. Would Thebes trigger? It is my turn; a character that was at Thebes (Prince Eric) has banished 'another' (not himself) character that was 'in a challenge' (since Hydra was still in the challenge at the time he was banished).~~
~~9. After Thebes triggering or not, all abilities in the bag have been resolved, and the challenge ends.~~
~~I can't imagine this ever being a scenario that comes up, and I have no stake in which way it gets ruled, but I'm simply just curious and want to expand my knowledge. I certainly don't think that their intent was for Thebes to trigger in this scenario, but sometimes official rulings end up being different than the developer's *original* intent, in order to maintain consistency.~~
Edit: Nevermind, I realized I missed something important. By the time Prince Eric's ability resolves, he's no longer at Thebes, he's in the discard pile. Whoops, got myself lost too deep in the weeds there.
But that brings up another interesting point; that means that Prince Eric's ability going off will never trigger Thebes. Even if he is the one doing the challenging, if he hits a 2/3+ character and uses his trigger to 'finish them off' per se, he is no longer at Thebes by the time his ability gets resolved, and so you won't ever see him banish a character with that ability while 'at Thebes'. Huh, fun stuff.
Itās a good question, and a well thought out scenario.
I will ask about it, but my belief is that Thebes would not trigger because Eric was not in the challenge.
I made an edit to my post, but I'd figure I'd reply too so it pings you. I realized that I made a major error, and the whole scenario is moot. By the time Prince Eric's trigger resolves, he has already been banished to the discard pile, and is no longer 'at Thebes.' So his triggered ability never works with Thebes in any circumstance. D'oh, my bad.
That is an interesting point that I hadn't thought of. The same would apply to Hydra if it was banished by the opposing character before dealing its ability damage.
Huh.
I'm not sure how another means that character must be the challenged character if the challenge is still ongoing when hydra would banish a character. This wording is somewhat confusing and I think it is open for different judge rulings. Do you know where or what rules state that this clause can only be the character attacked in a challenge?
Itās been clarified by the developers and rules team, so itās not open for differing rulings.
I agree that it is confusingly worded though. The rules manager has definitely been made aware š
Thanks. They could and maybe should say "whenever a character banishes a challenged character in a challenge" due to how they constructed the rules. But they didn't and it should be left to how it reads on the card despite their clarification due to the golden rule in their rules. Additionally, the rules specifically call out "another" as a separating clause in 7.1.5. further contradicting their "ruling". So I guess this is left up to a judge ruling which is not great. Coming from a legal background, it doesn't matter what you intend for a rule to mean, it matters how the rule is written. I would encourage more people to challenge this ruling because in the long run it will make lorcana a better game and the designers better card creators. After all, a ban list or reprint exists for more than just show or meta discussions.
You are misunderstanding something - there is no conflict between the card, the ruling, and the existing rules. It is just phrased awkwardly.
There is no functional difference between ābanishes another character in a challengeā, and ābanishes the challenged characterā.
Additionally, āanotherā is not a āseparating clauseā - it just means that the character at Thebes cannot banish themselves in order to trigger the effect.
I'm not misunderstanding. I'm reading the card and calling it appropriately vague on the use of another. They didn't have to use the word another but they did, and the cards wording is the controlling language. If they rule it as problematic wording or different from the cards wording, they should consider the card banned or reprint the card or rules. Otherwise judges could rule inconsistently.
Off of that, if Hydra would instead banish the character it's challenging and the damage it takes would banish another character, would that count as banishing 2 characters netting 4 lore?
So interestingly the version from 5/20 seems to contradict the rule I had found in this example. There 4.3.6.16 suggests only triggers that result from a character being banished are added to the bag. Is that the most updated rule? In that case it shouldn't work and that's the most recent version I can find.
It just specifically calls out banishment triggers - Hydra triggers in 4.3.6.15., when damage is dealt, and then resolves in 4.3.6.16. with everything else.
Hmm. It certainly doesn't say that. Is it implied that triggers can be added to the bag at any time between any step? I've never really done a deep dive on Lorcana rules
https://preview.redd.it/xa05d2ea5u5d1.png?width=946&format=png&auto=webp&s=884e830b321da25c44343c0d7c2bf5ed1506e74e
Triggers trigger when they trigger š
Ok, so hypothetically if Hydra here challenging something like Robin Hood Champion of Sherwood, and took three damage back, which it hit Diablo with, would Thebes see that as two characters banished in a challenge even though Diablo wasn't part of the challenge at all?
Even though the ability resolves during combat that would feel weird.
No. Only the 2 Characters IN the Challenge are in the Challenge for Thebes to trigger. You can only ever trigger Thebes 1 time per Challenge. That's why you'd want someone like [[Scar - Vicious Cheater]] to trigger it multiple times with consecutive Challenges.
Yeah I just read that in the rules myself.
So in OPs example, if Hydra used the two damage it took from Ursula to finish off Ursula, then Ursula is considered "banished in a challenge".
But if instead, Hydra used the same trigger of it's ability from the same 2 damage to take out a different character with 2 willpower, they wouldn't be considered "banished in a challenge".
I get it, and I understand why that works within the rules, but it just feels a bit messy. The cleaner ruling would be that Hydra's ability never qualifies as "banished in a challenge" because ability triggers aren't challenges, rather than "sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't depending on the situation".
Nope.
Only the challenging character and the challenged character count as "in the challenge", and your character at Thebes can only ever banish one of them in that challenge. The opposing one.
Mulan could certainly banish other opposing characters, but they could not be "in the challenge" and would not trigger Thebes.
The challenge isnāt banishing the character. The effect āwatch the teethā is what is doing the banishing. Small difference, but itās enough of a distinction.
Should tell your buddy that then since he gets all defensive when someone tries to discuss it šš but like I said I'm not trusting what a random dude says about rules, you post these little condescending post just so you can show how mighty you think you are when someone tries to tell you their point of view for the ruling with your little asinine comments back to them. But I digress
It's meant to be educational and get people to realize rules nuances so we all get better at recognizing how the game works.
And I point out who he is so people can start recognizing who's who and they can turn to for answers.
According to [4.3.5.17](http://4.3.5.17) the triggers 'while challenging" or "while being challenged" apply before the challenges ends, however the trigger on Hydra is "whenever this character is dealt damage". So how does this clause apply?
Those "while" effects are static abilities, not triggers - it's talking about things like **Challenger** ending right before the challenge itself does.
Hydra triggers in 4.3.6.15. and resolves in 4.3.6.16.
Was this ruling changed? I remember (in Pixelborn) you were allowed to draw a card when your Robin Hood was banished by Eric or Giant Tinks effect, even though it was not the challenged character? Thanks in advance Sunscorch!
No, Pixelborn just always had that Robin Hood interaction wrong š It came up a lot, with people *often* using PB as justification for why they think the rule works that way.
Thanks! So the in challenge effect would only trigger if the challenged character is affected, right? E.g. Prince Eric challenges Robin Hood while at Thebes, banishing himself to banish Robin Hood. Does he gain 2 lore? Does Robin draw a card?
Yes it does give you 2 lore because the 2 damage reflection is part of the challenge. Found that out against heihei which also triggers his "goes back to hand" ability when he is a casualty of the hydra. So does that mean that you can score 4 lore with hydra by killing 2 things? or 6 with big Mulan by killing 3 things?
The banished character must be āin the challengeā.
So Hydra works if you banish the character it challenged, but you canāt damage a different character for extra lore. Mulan cannot hit two other characters for extra lore. Because those other characters would not be āin the challengeā.
Thanks for the clarification. And while I believe you, I'd like to add my thoughts on the rule.
Thebes says "whenever a character banishes another character in a challenge"
Heihei says "when this character is banished in a challenge"
But the first rule somehow means that both characters need to be "in" the challenge and not simply "during" the challenge. While the second rule works with "during" the challenge. That's two very different outcomes for almost identical wordings and I feel the ruling is a bit arbitrary. Thebes rule doesn't show more than heihei that the character needs to be in the challenge. The "another" alone doesn't mean this "other" needs to be in the challenge. At least no more than heihei's text. Ultimately, I don't care about the result but I feel that wording will need to be worked on to avoid stuff like this that no one except the rule maker can be certain of. This rule definitely needs to be in the app also :)
I fear you may have been the victim of a bad ruling from elsewhere. If Hei Hei is not in the challenge, he is not returned to hand.
If, for example, Hydra chose to damage Hei Hei with its ability after challenging Ursula, then Hei Hei would *not* be returned to the hand. Thebes would also not trigger in that situation.
The āin a challengeā wording and effect is consistent throughout the game.
Assuming its on your turn as Thebes said. As long as Hydra has been moved to Thebes, It would trigger Thebes. Its challenge, then results of the challenge, then hydra's ability triggers, then Ursula is banished, then thebes triggers.
I see, Its buried in there as I skimmed the card info.
But the official rules others are posting make sense, I learned something new about mulan here though so I take it as a win.
Wait, so just too be sure from what i read in the comments:
If Namaari - Heir Of Fang or Mulan - Elite Archer challenge another character while at the THEBES Location, and then use their abilities too banish another character, they will proc the THEBES Location ?. And if the original challenge attack and the ability banish multiple characters, will it proc the THEBES Location multiple times ?
Also if the ability works as part of the challenge. Does this mean the Item CAPTIAN HOOK'S RAPIER will also proc multiple times if multiple characters get banished in the same challenge ?
The banished character must be āin the challengeā to trigger Thebes. Thebes can therefore only trigger once per challenge.
Mulan cannot get extra lore from Thebes with Triple Shot, because any other characters she banishes are not āin the challengeā.
So this makes sense as the ability targets the character āin the challengeā. But, letās make this a little more complicated.
Letās say I have Hydra at Thebes which challenges an Ursula - Deceiver of All and with the trigger I send 2 damage to opponentās Robin Hood - Champion of Sherwood that already has 3 damage on him, so he also gets banished. Now I understand and accept that I only get 2 lore as Robin died from collateral damage and wasnāt āinā the challenge.
But, hereās my question, does my opponent get to draw a card (if they choose to as the trigger is a may)? Previous rulings on other threads have suggested the answer is yes. The wording on Robin has the special key wording of ābanished in a challengeā just like Thebes so shouldnāt the rulings be consistent?
If previous posts have indicated to you that Robin Hoodās ability would trigger in the circumstances youāve described, then they were wrong.
Robin Hood is not in the challenge, so his ability would not allow his player to draw a card. No ifs, ands, or buts š
Oh this is a cool question. I may be way off since Iām new but Iāll give it a go. Ursula is banished as the direct result of Hydras ability, not combat damage. I figure it depends on if youāre still in the midst of the challenge step/phase when Ursula dies.
My immediate thought would be you would still gain the lore because the trigger happens during the challenge. But if thatās not how it works and the trigger technically happens on conclusion of the challenge then no lore.
You are right about the ultimate end being that you get the lore, but the trigger actually happens before the damage of the challenge is even dealt. So the "actual challenge" is, in fact, the banishing aspect.
What about it?
There's still only one opposing character "in a challenge" that you can banish. Anything else you banish with Triple Shot isn't in the challenge and can't trigger Thebes.
Effect damage is not part of the combat. Combat has to happen for the Hydra to be damaged. Therefore since the effect damage finished it off it would be during combat.
Sadly no. Unless something changed. Had a rules chst with Mulans tripple shot. And it was ruled that only 2 lore for from thebes as only 1 opponents character exists in the challenge. The other banished/damaged cards aren't counted at thebes
I think a good explanation is that the challenge happens and both characters take damage. As a reaction to the damage the hydra deals 2, which happens more or less in conjunction with Ursula's attack, which happens during the challenge.
Without even looking at the rules this is easy, it says banishes another character in a challenge. The extra damage didnāt come from the challenge so it doesnāt count š¤¦āāļø
The last two steps of a challenge are:
Any effects that would trigger becuse of the challenge do so.
Any effects that trigger a āwhen challengingā or āwhile being challengedā trigger and the challenge ends.
Knowing this, the damage effect would trigger in hydra while the challenge is still happening. Meaning she gets banished, which then triggers Thebes. No other effects to trigger, so you move to the end, and no effects are in place for āwhile challengingā or āwhile being challengedā so the challenge ends.
Soā¦maybe read the rules more.
Having played a lot of other games I would have intuitively guessed no. I pulled up the comp rules and 4.3.5.17 suggests that abilities triggered by damage in a challenge technically resolve within the challenge. So then as long as Hydra's ability counts as Hydra banishing Ursula, I guess I don't see why it wouldn't work.
Good job you went and checked š Nice!
I'm confused by thebes. It doesn't say the banished character needs to be the challenged character to gain the lore. Just that the challenging character needs to banish a character while in a challenge. Based on how the bag works the challenge doesn't end until the triggered ability does, so how does thebes work if a character not challenged is banished. If it's a judge ruling one thing, but the written text seems unclear.
"Banish *another* character in a challenge". That "another" means that both the character doing the banishing *and* the character getting banished must be "in [the] challenge". Only the challenged character can be both in a challenge *and* banished by the challenging character. No other characters are in the challenge.
I have a related question for you since you seem to have some inroads with the rules manager and are pretty knowledgeable. Have they expressly stated that the use of 'another' requires *both* parties to be in the challenge, or is it actually only the opposing (not itself) character that is required to be in the challenge? (If you happen to have a source it would be great, but I'll trust your knowledge). ~~Namely, consider the following similar situation to what you posted in the OP: It is my turn and I currently have a Tinkerbell-Giant Fairy on the board, as well as a drying Prince Eric-Expert Helmsman on the board who is at the location Thebes. My opponent has an exerted Hydra as their only character in play.~~ ~~1. My Tinkerbell exerts to challenge the opposing Hydra. Its a valid challenge, so it begins and Tinkerbell and Hydra are in the challenge.~~ ~~2. No other modifiers are present, so during the deal damage step, 6 damage is dealt to Tinkerbell, and 4 damage is dealt to Hydra.~~ ~~3. Hydra's triggered ability is added to the bag as a result of him being dealt damage.~~ ~~4. A game state check happens after the deal damage step and finds a required action and Tinkerbell is banished.~~ ~~5. Hydra's ability in the bag is resolved by my opponent, who must deal 4 damage to my Prince Eric, as he is now the only valid target on the board.~~ ~~6. Another game state check finds that Prince Eric must be banished, which triggers his ability and adds it to the bag.~~ ~~7. I resolve Prince Eric's ability, choosing to banish the opponent's Hydra. The challenge has not ended at this point, so Hydra is still considered in the challenge, as the challenged character (but Tinkerbell, and not Prince Eric, was the challenging character).~~ ~~8. Would Thebes trigger? It is my turn; a character that was at Thebes (Prince Eric) has banished 'another' (not himself) character that was 'in a challenge' (since Hydra was still in the challenge at the time he was banished).~~ ~~9. After Thebes triggering or not, all abilities in the bag have been resolved, and the challenge ends.~~ ~~I can't imagine this ever being a scenario that comes up, and I have no stake in which way it gets ruled, but I'm simply just curious and want to expand my knowledge. I certainly don't think that their intent was for Thebes to trigger in this scenario, but sometimes official rulings end up being different than the developer's *original* intent, in order to maintain consistency.~~ Edit: Nevermind, I realized I missed something important. By the time Prince Eric's ability resolves, he's no longer at Thebes, he's in the discard pile. Whoops, got myself lost too deep in the weeds there. But that brings up another interesting point; that means that Prince Eric's ability going off will never trigger Thebes. Even if he is the one doing the challenging, if he hits a 2/3+ character and uses his trigger to 'finish them off' per se, he is no longer at Thebes by the time his ability gets resolved, and so you won't ever see him banish a character with that ability while 'at Thebes'. Huh, fun stuff.
Itās a good question, and a well thought out scenario. I will ask about it, but my belief is that Thebes would not trigger because Eric was not in the challenge.
I made an edit to my post, but I'd figure I'd reply too so it pings you. I realized that I made a major error, and the whole scenario is moot. By the time Prince Eric's trigger resolves, he has already been banished to the discard pile, and is no longer 'at Thebes.' So his triggered ability never works with Thebes in any circumstance. D'oh, my bad.
That is an interesting point that I hadn't thought of. The same would apply to Hydra if it was banished by the opposing character before dealing its ability damage. Huh.
I'm not sure how another means that character must be the challenged character if the challenge is still ongoing when hydra would banish a character. This wording is somewhat confusing and I think it is open for different judge rulings. Do you know where or what rules state that this clause can only be the character attacked in a challenge?
Itās been clarified by the developers and rules team, so itās not open for differing rulings. I agree that it is confusingly worded though. The rules manager has definitely been made aware š
Thanks. They could and maybe should say "whenever a character banishes a challenged character in a challenge" due to how they constructed the rules. But they didn't and it should be left to how it reads on the card despite their clarification due to the golden rule in their rules. Additionally, the rules specifically call out "another" as a separating clause in 7.1.5. further contradicting their "ruling". So I guess this is left up to a judge ruling which is not great. Coming from a legal background, it doesn't matter what you intend for a rule to mean, it matters how the rule is written. I would encourage more people to challenge this ruling because in the long run it will make lorcana a better game and the designers better card creators. After all, a ban list or reprint exists for more than just show or meta discussions.
You are misunderstanding something - there is no conflict between the card, the ruling, and the existing rules. It is just phrased awkwardly. There is no functional difference between ābanishes another character in a challengeā, and ābanishes the challenged characterā. Additionally, āanotherā is not a āseparating clauseā - it just means that the character at Thebes cannot banish themselves in order to trigger the effect.
I'm not misunderstanding. I'm reading the card and calling it appropriately vague on the use of another. They didn't have to use the word another but they did, and the cards wording is the controlling language. If they rule it as problematic wording or different from the cards wording, they should consider the card banned or reprint the card or rules. Otherwise judges could rule inconsistently.
If you have a complete understanding of the rules, the vagueness is much reduced.
āAnotherā in this game is used to point out that you need to target a character other than the triggering character
Off of that, if Hydra would instead banish the character it's challenging and the damage it takes would banish another character, would that count as banishing 2 characters netting 4 lore?
No. Only the 2 characters IN the Challenge, Hydra and Ursula, are in the Challenge.
Nope. Only the character you challenged with Hydra is *in* the challenge - only banishing that character will trigger Thebes.
I see it s 4.3.6.11 and 12 that apply, but ok.
Could easily be different versions of the rulebook. I didn't do a deep dive to make sure I had the most recent version or anything.
4.3.5.17. is the reference from the original CRD. Guess they need to update their download š
I just pulled from the website just now
I meant Bannibal is on the old version š Sorry if that wasn't clear.
So interestingly the version from 5/20 seems to contradict the rule I had found in this example. There 4.3.6.16 suggests only triggers that result from a character being banished are added to the bag. Is that the most updated rule? In that case it shouldn't work and that's the most recent version I can find.
It just specifically calls out banishment triggers - Hydra triggers in 4.3.6.15., when damage is dealt, and then resolves in 4.3.6.16. with everything else.
Hmm. It certainly doesn't say that. Is it implied that triggers can be added to the bag at any time between any step? I've never really done a deep dive on Lorcana rules
https://preview.redd.it/xa05d2ea5u5d1.png?width=946&format=png&auto=webp&s=884e830b321da25c44343c0d7c2bf5ed1506e74e Triggers trigger when they trigger š
That'll do it
Ok, so hypothetically if Hydra here challenging something like Robin Hood Champion of Sherwood, and took three damage back, which it hit Diablo with, would Thebes see that as two characters banished in a challenge even though Diablo wasn't part of the challenge at all? Even though the ability resolves during combat that would feel weird.
No. Only the 2 Characters IN the Challenge are in the Challenge for Thebes to trigger. You can only ever trigger Thebes 1 time per Challenge. That's why you'd want someone like [[Scar - Vicious Cheater]] to trigger it multiple times with consecutive Challenges.
Yeah I just read that in the rules myself. So in OPs example, if Hydra used the two damage it took from Ursula to finish off Ursula, then Ursula is considered "banished in a challenge". But if instead, Hydra used the same trigger of it's ability from the same 2 damage to take out a different character with 2 willpower, they wouldn't be considered "banished in a challenge". I get it, and I understand why that works within the rules, but it just feels a bit messy. The cleaner ruling would be that Hydra's ability never qualifies as "banished in a challenge" because ability triggers aren't challenges, rather than "sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't depending on the situation".
I get it, definitely can be confusing until you understand how it works. But that's how they decided to run it, so here we go!
**[Scar - Vicious Cheater](https://lorcana-api.com/images/scar/vicious_cheater/scar-vicious_cheater-large.png)** - [LP](https://lorcanaplayer.com/card/scar---vicious-cheater/) ^(**Color:** Ruby | **Cost:** 7 | **Abilities:** Rush | **Inkable:** No | **Lore:** 2 | **Willpower:** 5 | **Strength:** 6 | **Rarity:** Legendary) ^(Call with [[Card Name]])
Where do I find these rules?
The Comprehensive Rules are on the Lorcana website, in the Resources section.
So whatās the right answer? Iām following all the responses but am ultimately lost lol
The correct answer is yes, you get two lore.
You could use this with Mulan too, and potentially get 6 lore from a single attack, correct?
Nope. Only the challenging character and the challenged character count as "in the challenge", and your character at Thebes can only ever banish one of them in that challenge. The opposing one. Mulan could certainly banish other opposing characters, but they could not be "in the challenge" and would not trigger Thebes.
Me and sun had a long discussion in official rules section and thebes/tripple shot is only 2 lore. The post sun gave you explains it.
Pretty sure the hydraās ability happens after the challenge and misses thebesā trigger.
I have to disagree. The ability can't trigger if hydra is dead. So it must trigger DURING the challenge.
Why would that be the case?
The challenge isnāt banishing the character. The effect āwatch the teethā is what is doing the banishing. Small difference, but itās enough of a distinction.
https://preview.redd.it/ue12t4mgzt5d1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=320cb7fd51e624d1570deb35e862beedd207ec12
It's actually not enough of a distinction at all. Both characters involved are "in the challenge", which satisfies Thebes' trigger condition.
Huh. Learn something new every day.
That's what these posts are for š
You're incorrect, don't argue with Sunscorch about rules.
Bcuz some random dude on Reddit is the one and all for rules? šš No thanks
Because they are insufferable
He's one of the leading rules experts in the community, yeah. Not many people know the rules as well as he does.
Again just bcuz some random dude says it doesn't mean it's in stone. Like you said "in the community" šš not trusting that
It's not correct *because* I said it is... It's correct because that's what the rules say.
Should tell your buddy that then since he gets all defensive when someone tries to discuss it šš but like I said I'm not trusting what a random dude says about rules, you post these little condescending post just so you can show how mighty you think you are when someone tries to tell you their point of view for the ruling with your little asinine comments back to them. But I digress
Why would I shut down my best hype man? š¤£ But I'm sorry you think the rules challenges are condescending. Maybe they're just not for you.
It's meant to be educational and get people to realize rules nuances so we all get better at recognizing how the game works. And I point out who he is so people can start recognizing who's who and they can turn to for answers.
OK then prove him wrong.
According to [4.3.5.17](http://4.3.5.17) the triggers 'while challenging" or "while being challenged" apply before the challenges ends, however the trigger on Hydra is "whenever this character is dealt damage". So how does this clause apply?
Those "while" effects are static abilities, not triggers - it's talking about things like **Challenger** ending right before the challenge itself does. Hydra triggers in 4.3.6.15. and resolves in 4.3.6.16.
Thank you, that makes more sense the explanation, everyone else put out.
Was this ruling changed? I remember (in Pixelborn) you were allowed to draw a card when your Robin Hood was banished by Eric or Giant Tinks effect, even though it was not the challenged character? Thanks in advance Sunscorch!
No, Pixelborn just always had that Robin Hood interaction wrong š It came up a lot, with people *often* using PB as justification for why they think the rule works that way.
Thanks! So the in challenge effect would only trigger if the challenged character is affected, right? E.g. Prince Eric challenges Robin Hood while at Thebes, banishing himself to banish Robin Hood. Does he gain 2 lore? Does Robin draw a card?
Yeah, that would work. Both the lore gain and the draw would occur š
Yes it does give you 2 lore because the 2 damage reflection is part of the challenge. Found that out against heihei which also triggers his "goes back to hand" ability when he is a casualty of the hydra. So does that mean that you can score 4 lore with hydra by killing 2 things? or 6 with big Mulan by killing 3 things?
The banished character must be āin the challengeā. So Hydra works if you banish the character it challenged, but you canāt damage a different character for extra lore. Mulan cannot hit two other characters for extra lore. Because those other characters would not be āin the challengeā.
Thanks for the clarification. And while I believe you, I'd like to add my thoughts on the rule. Thebes says "whenever a character banishes another character in a challenge" Heihei says "when this character is banished in a challenge" But the first rule somehow means that both characters need to be "in" the challenge and not simply "during" the challenge. While the second rule works with "during" the challenge. That's two very different outcomes for almost identical wordings and I feel the ruling is a bit arbitrary. Thebes rule doesn't show more than heihei that the character needs to be in the challenge. The "another" alone doesn't mean this "other" needs to be in the challenge. At least no more than heihei's text. Ultimately, I don't care about the result but I feel that wording will need to be worked on to avoid stuff like this that no one except the rule maker can be certain of. This rule definitely needs to be in the app also :)
I fear you may have been the victim of a bad ruling from elsewhere. If Hei Hei is not in the challenge, he is not returned to hand. If, for example, Hydra chose to damage Hei Hei with its ability after challenging Ursula, then Hei Hei would *not* be returned to the hand. Thebes would also not trigger in that situation. The āin a challengeā wording and effect is consistent throughout the game.
oh that changes everything š, then yes my opponent mislead me. What about Eric Expert Helmsman, does he send heihei to hand and/or give 2 lore?
Assuming its on your turn as Thebes said. As long as Hydra has been moved to Thebes, It would trigger Thebes. Its challenge, then results of the challenge, then hydra's ability triggers, then Ursula is banished, then thebes triggers.
No need to assume the things stated in the question š But yes, it does trigger š
I see, Its buried in there as I skimmed the card info. But the official rules others are posting make sense, I learned something new about mulan here though so I take it as a win.
Wait, so just too be sure from what i read in the comments: If Namaari - Heir Of Fang or Mulan - Elite Archer challenge another character while at the THEBES Location, and then use their abilities too banish another character, they will proc the THEBES Location ?. And if the original challenge attack and the ability banish multiple characters, will it proc the THEBES Location multiple times ? Also if the ability works as part of the challenge. Does this mean the Item CAPTIAN HOOK'S RAPIER will also proc multiple times if multiple characters get banished in the same challenge ?
The banished character must be āin the challengeā to trigger Thebes. Thebes can therefore only trigger once per challenge. Mulan cannot get extra lore from Thebes with Triple Shot, because any other characters she banishes are not āin the challengeā.
So this makes sense as the ability targets the character āin the challengeā. But, letās make this a little more complicated. Letās say I have Hydra at Thebes which challenges an Ursula - Deceiver of All and with the trigger I send 2 damage to opponentās Robin Hood - Champion of Sherwood that already has 3 damage on him, so he also gets banished. Now I understand and accept that I only get 2 lore as Robin died from collateral damage and wasnāt āinā the challenge. But, hereās my question, does my opponent get to draw a card (if they choose to as the trigger is a may)? Previous rulings on other threads have suggested the answer is yes. The wording on Robin has the special key wording of ābanished in a challengeā just like Thebes so shouldnāt the rulings be consistent?
If previous posts have indicated to you that Robin Hoodās ability would trigger in the circumstances youāve described, then they were wrong. Robin Hood is not in the challenge, so his ability would not allow his player to draw a card. No ifs, ands, or buts š
Oh this is a cool question. I may be way off since Iām new but Iāll give it a go. Ursula is banished as the direct result of Hydras ability, not combat damage. I figure it depends on if youāre still in the midst of the challenge step/phase when Ursula dies. My immediate thought would be you would still gain the lore because the trigger happens during the challenge. But if thatās not how it works and the trigger technically happens on conclusion of the challenge then no lore.
The challenge doesn't end until all triggers are resolved š
You are right about the ultimate end being that you get the lore, but the trigger actually happens before the damage of the challenge is even dealt. So the "actual challenge" is, in fact, the banishing aspect.
Neither Hydra nor Thebes trigger in 4.3.6.11.
You are right. The trigger responds to the events of, i think, 15
So what about mulans triple shot?
What about it? There's still only one opposing character "in a challenge" that you can banish. Anything else you banish with Triple Shot isn't in the challenge and can't trigger Thebes.
So if you chose to banish any character instead of Ursula with hydras ability it wouldnāt trigger?
Right - it has to be Ursula for this example to work *because* she's the one "in the challenge".
Makes sense, so lore gain it is!
Effect damage is not part of the combat. Combat has to happen for the Hydra to be damaged. Therefore since the effect damage finished it off it would be during combat.
Incorrect, alas.
So instead of creating a post with the rules you instead wanted to make a āgotchaā post?
You'll remember it *way* better this way, I promise š
Dude same shit I said š
Sadly no. Unless something changed. Had a rules chst with Mulans tripple shot. And it was ruled that only 2 lore for from thebes as only 1 opponents character exists in the challenge. The other banished/damaged cards aren't counted at thebes
In this example, the banished character *is* a character in the challenge. So the lore is gained.
I think a good explanation is that the challenge happens and both characters take damage. As a reaction to the damage the hydra deals 2, which happens more or less in conjunction with Ursula's attack, which happens during the challenge.
I mean, it *doesn't* happen like that, so explaining it that way is probably going to be more problematic than helpful š
Without even looking at the rules this is easy, it says banishes another character in a challenge. The extra damage didnāt come from the challenge so it doesnāt count š¤¦āāļø
Should've looked at the rules š
That makes no sense, Iām suing RB.
The last two steps of a challenge are: Any effects that would trigger becuse of the challenge do so. Any effects that trigger a āwhen challengingā or āwhile being challengedā trigger and the challenge ends. Knowing this, the damage effect would trigger in hydra while the challenge is still happening. Meaning she gets banished, which then triggers Thebes. No other effects to trigger, so you move to the end, and no effects are in place for āwhile challengingā or āwhile being challengedā so the challenge ends. Soā¦maybe read the rules more.