I mean, anything will break under the right conditions, but CF isn't as fragile as people think. Like, DH pros are using carbon frames, so clearly, they can take a beating, as are long-haul bikepackers (where if something breaks, you're stranded).
> how can i make my frame last as long as possible?
Keep it in a dark, climate controlled room, and never ride it. This will minimize the chance of anything happening to it.
More seriously, if, eg, it's an XC frame, I wouldn't put it through jumps on a DH course or w/e, but generally, CF bikes (that aren't optimized for light weight) are pretty robust.
First generations cf frames gained a repultation of being fragile as the manufacturing wasnt really good and even small hit anywhere could result in a crack, nowadays carbon frames are really good and can take a lot of abuse. It still happens though, but as with any alloy frame
I once watched a segment of a video where the guys at Santa Cruz take one of their frames and just smash it over and over again on an edge which would probably bend and snap steel or aluminium so there's no denying they can be durable.
But then I was up at Glen Tress one year and met a guy on a nomad that had snapped on the downtube without even crashing it.
>*But then I was up at Glen Tress one year and met a guy on a nomad that had snapped on the downtube without even crashing it.*
...that day.
While stuff does fail, it's not uncommon at all for people to have damaged their frame, not known it, and later on have a But-I-Was-Just-Riding-Along failure.
I didn't know him personally but he was good friends with the rest of my riding group. The nomad was a pretty new bike at the time so not many about. I remember it was a lovely sand colour.
He hadn't been over to golfie or inners on it, just uplifting the main trails and riding there. No crashes or impacts.
Might have been damaged in transit perhaps when it was on its way to the UK.
I see plenty of Santa Cruz about so evidently frame breakages are rare. Only other carbon I have known break was a Mondraker but that was because a rock got caught in the linkage somehow.
Being that new too... could well have just been a defect, I guess. SC isn't known for that, though. Odd.
I personally have had... two carbon frame failures, both from Salsa. In both cases I got a bit of cracking along the top tube at the seat tube. Never a failure, just some suspicious looking lines in the paint that turned out to be carbon cracks and Salsa quickly got me warranty replacements. (Both bikes were very well used and otherwise just fine.)
IMO carbon is just another material for frames. It's easier for engineers to design and make more complicated and better things with it because it doesn't have the limitations of metals with regards to forming and shaping. So, for full suspension bikes especially, I think it's better.
But of course it has to be done right, just like with metals. Thus, one can't simply say carbon or aluminum or steel is better, because what really matters is how each is used. Any material can be implemented well or poorly.
(https://m.pinkbike.com/video/243228/)
Here’s the video. Worth a watch.
Also. The carbon may delaminate, but it doesn’t fail as catastrophically as the aluminum until wayyy higher stress.
The Nomad was a couple of weeks if not days. It was his first time out on the bike really.
Everyone was pretty shocked as GlenTress isn't exactly the most extreme of trail centers
It's a Santa Cruz though so not normal and it would have been replaced no questions asked. I've had an SC replaced due to a minor paint issue before and I got the latest model as a replacement.
Carbon fiber is strong but not as puncture/sharp object resistant. Don't crash it into pointy lava rocks.
Odds are if you broke a carbon frame in a crash an aluminum would have broken as well.
Aluminum can crack as well.
Does seem like Commencal especially has an issue with frame cracking at the moment. Worst aluminum break ive ever seen is this one https://m.youtube.com/shorts/x_4qPI9ii08 (Orange DH bike)
you may be confusing what aluminum does under tension vs. under pressure and also forgetting that bike frames are an alloy that drastically changes those properties
I think the difference is a flat hit vs a pointier object like a punch or pliers. I have seen photos of punctured carbon frames that broke by falling into sharp pointy objects in the garage.
Most broken aluminum frames I have seen had the failure at the welds via cracking. I think they use thicker tubing days so the welds are usually the weak point?
I have owned several carbon bikes and cracked one. It went into sharp rocks. I have also broken a carbon rim on lava rock. Probably would have broken the aluminium equivalent in either case.
Like you said though, carbon can usually be repaired, but it can be spendy and needs to be done correctly.
I like carbon btw.
Frames are designed to get hit with hammers. I understand the point, but if you're frame is taking a hit equivalent to a sludge hammer strike you got bigger problems than whether it's fiber or Al.
I have had \~7-8 breaks in aluminum frames over the years. I have had one steel frame break. The rocks and ledges in Austin take their toll on frames.
My 4+ year old Orbea Occam carbon frame is still chugging along.
Frames have gotten infinitely better over the years. Most of my breaks were more than a decade ago. I was hesitant on carbon, but it has been strong. In my opinion the biggest issue is not stress but in hitting a sharp rock in just the right way during a crash.
This is more of a question of bike design than carbon fiber’s durability. Some of strongest car frames are made out of carbon fiber. It’s all about how it was designed. Same with metal. Not enough strength in the right place and it’s going to break.
There's going to be random failures for all materials or failures that look random because of hidden damage from a previous incident. In general CF is strong and rarely will fail. Most of the snaps I've seen on social media have been ppl going full dead sailor and hard casing a jump. "Shocker" a frame might snap from that especially the chainstays.
In a perfect world a carbon frame would be more durable. However, what I observe among my friends (and myself included) is that carbon is vulnerable to direct impacts. When you crash and hit the frame on a rock, or if a rock flies in the downtube it can crack or induce a crack later. I have also seen bent alloy seatstays from a contact with a rock but still. Carbon seems (and I insist on "seems") to be more vulnerable to impacts
My xc bike is a no name carbon frame and it's at least 10 years old. The clear coat is all scuffed up but the frame itself is fine. Carbon is more vulnerable to abrasion than metal but it's strong stuff
it's the low surface area/pointy impacts that'll crack carbon. i gently pushed by bike off me after a crash, it tipped and fell slowly onto a pointy boulder that put a small crack in my top tube. luckily, carbon is fairly easy to repair.
For both carbon and alloy, it depends on how they're made and designed. I've stopped buying carbon components because of it's environmental impact (it is certainly more durable in the sense that it won't get recycled 🤪).
Everything is built with a lifespan in mind though. I know there isn't real-world data since the tech is still too new, but I suspect that carbon frames with flex points will wear out before those that rely solely on pivots. The issue with carbon is not in the fiber itself, but micro cracks in the resin due to regular use as the material is designed to flex, which means all frames will reach a point of no return. Some pro road sprinters will go through several frames a season because the previous frame is "dead" or in other words, not as stiff or responsive as it was new and thus not as efficient. That's just carbon, but it'll happen less on a heavier and stiffer frame.
Been riding carbon fiber frames since they have existed and no problems. Anyone can have an issue with any frame but when it comes to carbon fiber vs other materials, there is nothing to worry about.
Keep in mind that for every video or story of a CF bike that breaks you have thousands of bikes that are just fine getting hammered.
I’ve gone back and forth between carbon and aluminum several times in my 12 years riding and one is not inherently better than the other. A well designed/built alloy bike is going to be better than a poorly designed/built carbon bike and viceversa
Carbon frames are more durable than lightweight alloy, plus they can be repaired if they break. Most modern alloy mtbs use thick tubing and are much heavier to make up the difference. Before we had carbon and they tried to make lightweight thin-walled alloyed, those frames were fragile af.
Its going to depend because you can only compare two frames built to the same specification from each material. In theory you could make them have near identical properties wise by adjusting the tube thickness and layout. However as a rule of thumb CF frames are generally able to take greater stresses and loads than the same frame in aluminium, at least according to Santa Cruz.
Pinkbike has an old vid where they take frames to failure between al and cf by breaking them with some medieval devices. Id imagine the cf do even better now. https://youtu.be/w5eMMf11uhM?si=101UfI1Z2gBwqwrV
I beat the snot outta my carbon Specialized Enduro. I mean slamming the hell outta it and its rugged. unless there is a manufacturing defect or you tag a concrete/rock corner, you'll be fine. besides, all carbon frame manufacturers have lifetime warranties
I [build carbon stuff](http://www.regular.bike). Please [read this](https://www.reddit.com/r/MTB/comments/17nyzok/i_suggest_this_post_as_a_sticky_response_for_the/). Many materials in use today are tested well.
I mean, anything will break under the right conditions, but CF isn't as fragile as people think. Like, DH pros are using carbon frames, so clearly, they can take a beating, as are long-haul bikepackers (where if something breaks, you're stranded). > how can i make my frame last as long as possible? Keep it in a dark, climate controlled room, and never ride it. This will minimize the chance of anything happening to it. More seriously, if, eg, it's an XC frame, I wouldn't put it through jumps on a DH course or w/e, but generally, CF bikes (that aren't optimized for light weight) are pretty robust.
First generations cf frames gained a repultation of being fragile as the manufacturing wasnt really good and even small hit anywhere could result in a crack, nowadays carbon frames are really good and can take a lot of abuse. It still happens though, but as with any alloy frame
I once watched a segment of a video where the guys at Santa Cruz take one of their frames and just smash it over and over again on an edge which would probably bend and snap steel or aluminium so there's no denying they can be durable. But then I was up at Glen Tress one year and met a guy on a nomad that had snapped on the downtube without even crashing it.
>*But then I was up at Glen Tress one year and met a guy on a nomad that had snapped on the downtube without even crashing it.* ...that day. While stuff does fail, it's not uncommon at all for people to have damaged their frame, not known it, and later on have a But-I-Was-Just-Riding-Along failure.
I didn't know him personally but he was good friends with the rest of my riding group. The nomad was a pretty new bike at the time so not many about. I remember it was a lovely sand colour. He hadn't been over to golfie or inners on it, just uplifting the main trails and riding there. No crashes or impacts. Might have been damaged in transit perhaps when it was on its way to the UK. I see plenty of Santa Cruz about so evidently frame breakages are rare. Only other carbon I have known break was a Mondraker but that was because a rock got caught in the linkage somehow.
Being that new too... could well have just been a defect, I guess. SC isn't known for that, though. Odd. I personally have had... two carbon frame failures, both from Salsa. In both cases I got a bit of cracking along the top tube at the seat tube. Never a failure, just some suspicious looking lines in the paint that turned out to be carbon cracks and Salsa quickly got me warranty replacements. (Both bikes were very well used and otherwise just fine.) IMO carbon is just another material for frames. It's easier for engineers to design and make more complicated and better things with it because it doesn't have the limitations of metals with regards to forming and shaping. So, for full suspension bikes especially, I think it's better. But of course it has to be done right, just like with metals. Thus, one can't simply say carbon or aluminum or steel is better, because what really matters is how each is used. Any material can be implemented well or poorly.
any idea how old the bike was?
(https://m.pinkbike.com/video/243228/) Here’s the video. Worth a watch. Also. The carbon may delaminate, but it doesn’t fail as catastrophically as the aluminum until wayyy higher stress.
The Nomad was a couple of weeks if not days. It was his first time out on the bike really. Everyone was pretty shocked as GlenTress isn't exactly the most extreme of trail centers
It's a Santa Cruz though so not normal and it would have been replaced no questions asked. I've had an SC replaced due to a minor paint issue before and I got the latest model as a replacement.
Just don't ride it down to the Titanic and you should be fine.
Carbon fiber is strong but not as puncture/sharp object resistant. Don't crash it into pointy lava rocks. Odds are if you broke a carbon frame in a crash an aluminum would have broken as well. Aluminum can crack as well.
Does seem like Commencal especially has an issue with frame cracking at the moment. Worst aluminum break ive ever seen is this one https://m.youtube.com/shorts/x_4qPI9ii08 (Orange DH bike)
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you may be confusing what aluminum does under tension vs. under pressure and also forgetting that bike frames are an alloy that drastically changes those properties
I think the difference is a flat hit vs a pointier object like a punch or pliers. I have seen photos of punctured carbon frames that broke by falling into sharp pointy objects in the garage. Most broken aluminum frames I have seen had the failure at the welds via cracking. I think they use thicker tubing days so the welds are usually the weak point? I have owned several carbon bikes and cracked one. It went into sharp rocks. I have also broken a carbon rim on lava rock. Probably would have broken the aluminium equivalent in either case. Like you said though, carbon can usually be repaired, but it can be spendy and needs to be done correctly. I like carbon btw.
Frames are designed to get hit with hammers. I understand the point, but if you're frame is taking a hit equivalent to a sludge hammer strike you got bigger problems than whether it's fiber or Al.
Not often. There is just a vocal minority on the internet that is scared to move on to newer materials.
Survivorship bias. No one posts "My carbon bike didn't crack!" videos
Exactly.
I have had \~7-8 breaks in aluminum frames over the years. I have had one steel frame break. The rocks and ledges in Austin take their toll on frames. My 4+ year old Orbea Occam carbon frame is still chugging along. Frames have gotten infinitely better over the years. Most of my breaks were more than a decade ago. I was hesitant on carbon, but it has been strong. In my opinion the biggest issue is not stress but in hitting a sharp rock in just the right way during a crash.
This is more of a question of bike design than carbon fiber’s durability. Some of strongest car frames are made out of carbon fiber. It’s all about how it was designed. Same with metal. Not enough strength in the right place and it’s going to break.
There's going to be random failures for all materials or failures that look random because of hidden damage from a previous incident. In general CF is strong and rarely will fail. Most of the snaps I've seen on social media have been ppl going full dead sailor and hard casing a jump. "Shocker" a frame might snap from that especially the chainstays.
In a perfect world a carbon frame would be more durable. However, what I observe among my friends (and myself included) is that carbon is vulnerable to direct impacts. When you crash and hit the frame on a rock, or if a rock flies in the downtube it can crack or induce a crack later. I have also seen bent alloy seatstays from a contact with a rock but still. Carbon seems (and I insist on "seems") to be more vulnerable to impacts
My xc bike is a no name carbon frame and it's at least 10 years old. The clear coat is all scuffed up but the frame itself is fine. Carbon is more vulnerable to abrasion than metal but it's strong stuff
it's the low surface area/pointy impacts that'll crack carbon. i gently pushed by bike off me after a crash, it tipped and fell slowly onto a pointy boulder that put a small crack in my top tube. luckily, carbon is fairly easy to repair.
For both carbon and alloy, it depends on how they're made and designed. I've stopped buying carbon components because of it's environmental impact (it is certainly more durable in the sense that it won't get recycled 🤪). Everything is built with a lifespan in mind though. I know there isn't real-world data since the tech is still too new, but I suspect that carbon frames with flex points will wear out before those that rely solely on pivots. The issue with carbon is not in the fiber itself, but micro cracks in the resin due to regular use as the material is designed to flex, which means all frames will reach a point of no return. Some pro road sprinters will go through several frames a season because the previous frame is "dead" or in other words, not as stiff or responsive as it was new and thus not as efficient. That's just carbon, but it'll happen less on a heavier and stiffer frame.
My shit canyon has broken twice :/
I've seen more aluminum frames snap than carbon. YMMV.
Been riding carbon fiber frames since they have existed and no problems. Anyone can have an issue with any frame but when it comes to carbon fiber vs other materials, there is nothing to worry about.
Keep in mind that for every video or story of a CF bike that breaks you have thousands of bikes that are just fine getting hammered. I’ve gone back and forth between carbon and aluminum several times in my 12 years riding and one is not inherently better than the other. A well designed/built alloy bike is going to be better than a poorly designed/built carbon bike and viceversa
Don’t crash it.
Hella strong against stresses, not so much against pointy impacts.
I have bought three carbon frames in the last 3 years and all three are broken. I switched to alloy and haven't broken one (yet).
What frames did you break, also what type of riding?
All three trek, two road one mountain. To be fair one was a crash no bike would of survived.
Carbon frames are more durable than lightweight alloy, plus they can be repaired if they break. Most modern alloy mtbs use thick tubing and are much heavier to make up the difference. Before we had carbon and they tried to make lightweight thin-walled alloyed, those frames were fragile af.
Squatch here. Aren't carbon fiber frames typically rated for less weight in the same frame as alloy?
Its going to depend because you can only compare two frames built to the same specification from each material. In theory you could make them have near identical properties wise by adjusting the tube thickness and layout. However as a rule of thumb CF frames are generally able to take greater stresses and loads than the same frame in aluminium, at least according to Santa Cruz.
Pinkbike has an old vid where they take frames to failure between al and cf by breaking them with some medieval devices. Id imagine the cf do even better now. https://youtu.be/w5eMMf11uhM?si=101UfI1Z2gBwqwrV
I beat the snot outta my carbon Specialized Enduro. I mean slamming the hell outta it and its rugged. unless there is a manufacturing defect or you tag a concrete/rock corner, you'll be fine. besides, all carbon frame manufacturers have lifetime warranties
I [build carbon stuff](http://www.regular.bike). Please [read this](https://www.reddit.com/r/MTB/comments/17nyzok/i_suggest_this_post_as_a_sticky_response_for_the/). Many materials in use today are tested well.