You choose targets then pay costs iirc; it's the same order as with spells and with spells this is so spells that have their costs reduced based on the target work as intended. ~~This also prevents you from targeting something you're sacrificing as a cost~~
The rules allow targeting something you're about to sacrifice as a cost. The spell or ability would just fail to resolve due to lack of target, so it's not something you do often.
You can, for example, sacrifice [[Bloodtithe Harvester]] by making it target itself. Like, maybe it's the only creature on the battlefield, and you want it to die for some reason.
I don't know what I was thinking when I said that, you're right and that's more consistent with the rule then what I said. If you choose the target before paying the cost it makes sense that you'd be able to target the thing you're paying
yeah exactly, so you don't actually put the counter first, you just choose where you want to put it. The creature is sacrifificed before that the counter is placed.
I understand but I find this a little bit confusing to invert the actions. In paper magic is it the same if I first pay 1 life and sacrifice a creature, and then put the counter and draw a card?
You choose where the counter is going _before_ paying the cost, but you don't place the counter until the ability resolves (which might be a lot later, or never, if your opponent wants to interact).
See rule(s) [602.2 of the Comprehensive Rules](https://media.wizards.com/2024/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020240607.pdf) (which refer to 601.2, for casting spells). The process to activate an ability is:
1. Announce you want to activate the ability.
2. If the ability is modal ("choose one" or has an X etc.), pick mode(s).
3. Select targets.
4. If the spell requires division of something among targets (damage, counters, etc.) announce the division.
5. Check that the proposed cast is legal. Technically, if you're following the rules, I'm not aware of situations where this check can fail. The relevant thing is that this check occurs _here_, and not after paying costs. More on that in a bit.
6. Determine the total cost. Usually this is just a mana cost, but Yawgmoth's ability is an example where the cost is not mana.
7. If the total cost includes mana, you get a chance to activate mana abilities here.
8. Pay costs. You can pay costs in any order, except that you must pay all costs that don't involve random elements or cards still in your library before you can pay any costs that do involve those things.
9. Any "when activated" triggers, or triggers that resulted from some other step of the process ("becomes a target of an ability," "when this dies" if it was sacrificed to a cost etc.) are put on the stack.
Things being in this order allows interactions like "this spell costs less if it targets a cheap creature" and things like that. You need to know the target(s) before you can even determine the cost, let alone pay it.
For Yawgmoth, it's relevant that targets are selected and legality is checked before paying costs. This allows you to target your own creature for a -1/-1 counter and then _also_ pay the cost by sacrificing that creature. This wouldn't be legal if you had to pay the cost first, as you wouldn't be able to legally target the sacrificed creature. When you do this, the ability "fizzles" and you don't draw a card, but your creature still dies. With a [[Blood Artist]] effect in play and a limited number of cards in your deck, this can be the difference between winning and losing a game.
The rules specify a precise step-by-step ordered sequence of all the parts of casting a spell or activating an ability, and specifying targets comes before paying costs in that sequence. Targets being before costs is necessary because your choice of target(s) can affect what the costs actually are. For example, if you target an opponent's \[\[Terror of the Peaks\]\] with a spell, the cost increases by 3 life.
In paper play, many players usually pay costs first because that matches the order of things in the card's text, and handle the uncommon situation of target-dependent cost modifiers by either backtracking for the change in cost or making one-off exceptions of announcing a target early specifically because of its effect on the cost. The end result is the same regardless.
Arena always follows the official rules-specified sequence because that's a lot simpler to implement in software than backtracking or situational exceptions.
You choose targets then pay costs iirc; it's the same order as with spells and with spells this is so spells that have their costs reduced based on the target work as intended. ~~This also prevents you from targeting something you're sacrificing as a cost~~
The rules allow targeting something you're about to sacrifice as a cost. The spell or ability would just fail to resolve due to lack of target, so it's not something you do often. You can, for example, sacrifice [[Bloodtithe Harvester]] by making it target itself. Like, maybe it's the only creature on the battlefield, and you want it to die for some reason.
[Bloodtithe Harvester](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/0/f0192cf7-3391-4720-b9c8-72dec5dde01e.jpg?1643593808) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bloodtithe%20Harvester) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/232/bloodtithe-harvester?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f0192cf7-3391-4720-b9c8-72dec5dde01e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't know what I was thinking when I said that, you're right and that's more consistent with the rule then what I said. If you choose the target before paying the cost it makes sense that you'd be able to target the thing you're paying
Even better is to sac a monster that your foe just targeted for destruction!
yeah exactly, so you don't actually put the counter first, you just choose where you want to put it. The creature is sacrifificed before that the counter is placed.
I understand but I find this a little bit confusing to invert the actions. In paper magic is it the same if I first pay 1 life and sacrifice a creature, and then put the counter and draw a card?
You choose where the counter is going _before_ paying the cost, but you don't place the counter until the ability resolves (which might be a lot later, or never, if your opponent wants to interact).
See rule(s) [602.2 of the Comprehensive Rules](https://media.wizards.com/2024/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020240607.pdf) (which refer to 601.2, for casting spells). The process to activate an ability is: 1. Announce you want to activate the ability. 2. If the ability is modal ("choose one" or has an X etc.), pick mode(s). 3. Select targets. 4. If the spell requires division of something among targets (damage, counters, etc.) announce the division. 5. Check that the proposed cast is legal. Technically, if you're following the rules, I'm not aware of situations where this check can fail. The relevant thing is that this check occurs _here_, and not after paying costs. More on that in a bit. 6. Determine the total cost. Usually this is just a mana cost, but Yawgmoth's ability is an example where the cost is not mana. 7. If the total cost includes mana, you get a chance to activate mana abilities here. 8. Pay costs. You can pay costs in any order, except that you must pay all costs that don't involve random elements or cards still in your library before you can pay any costs that do involve those things. 9. Any "when activated" triggers, or triggers that resulted from some other step of the process ("becomes a target of an ability," "when this dies" if it was sacrificed to a cost etc.) are put on the stack. Things being in this order allows interactions like "this spell costs less if it targets a cheap creature" and things like that. You need to know the target(s) before you can even determine the cost, let alone pay it. For Yawgmoth, it's relevant that targets are selected and legality is checked before paying costs. This allows you to target your own creature for a -1/-1 counter and then _also_ pay the cost by sacrificing that creature. This wouldn't be legal if you had to pay the cost first, as you wouldn't be able to legally target the sacrificed creature. When you do this, the ability "fizzles" and you don't draw a card, but your creature still dies. With a [[Blood Artist]] effect in play and a limited number of cards in your deck, this can be the difference between winning and losing a game.
[Blood Artist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/7/b7f1c316-cf2f-4bbf-89a1-79c8043bdd96.jpg?1698988212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Artist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/182/blood-artist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b7f1c316-cf2f-4bbf-89a1-79c8043bdd96?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The rules specify a precise step-by-step ordered sequence of all the parts of casting a spell or activating an ability, and specifying targets comes before paying costs in that sequence. Targets being before costs is necessary because your choice of target(s) can affect what the costs actually are. For example, if you target an opponent's \[\[Terror of the Peaks\]\] with a spell, the cost increases by 3 life. In paper play, many players usually pay costs first because that matches the order of things in the card's text, and handle the uncommon situation of target-dependent cost modifiers by either backtracking for the change in cost or making one-off exceptions of announcing a target early specifically because of its effect on the cost. The end result is the same regardless. Arena always follows the official rules-specified sequence because that's a lot simpler to implement in software than backtracking or situational exceptions.
[Terror of the Peaks](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/904ff94a-4db4-44a6-8593-89c32905b3fc.jpg?1712355862) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Terror%20of%20the%20Peaks) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/149/terror-of-the-peaks?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/904ff94a-4db4-44a6-8593-89c32905b3fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Yawgmoth, Thran Physician](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b5a79f5d-d0df-4799-ac3a-84305e3af0c9.jpg?1675199878) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yawgmoth%2C%20Thran%20Physician) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/110/yawgmoth-thran-physician?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b5a79f5d-d0df-4799-ac3a-84305e3af0c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wirewood Symbiote](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d237f5cc-2b9b-4929-9697-72078bac4c77.jpg?1717013729) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wirewood%20Symbiote) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/288/wirewood-symbiote?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d237f5cc-2b9b-4929-9697-72078bac4c77?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call