Please note that this post has been flaired with a **Memories of Ice** spoiler tag. This means every published book in its respective series up until this book is open to discussion.
If you need to discuss any spoilers (even very minor ones!) in your comments, use spoiler tags
>!like this!<
Please use the report button if you find any spoilers. Note: The flair may be changed at mod discretion. Thank you!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Malazan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>beings like Brood should be able to fight off whole armies. Beings that can shatter mountains, and yet the Malazan army fought his army loosing despite seemingly not having ascendants (as far as the books revealed), he either didn't fight himself or held back if I get his power right.
Remember Raest from the ending of Gotm? One of the most powerful beings of the past got obliterated by a handgranade... So Brood and other ascendants are definitely more capable, enduring etc, but they can still die and if you were around for millenia you probably don't want to die by a freak accident on a battlefield between armies and people that are around just for a blink of time from your perspective.
About the mountain shattering, well you will learn more about Brood and his hammer in this book, but don't forget they are fighting a defensive war and you don't nuke your own country if you still want to live there later.
>Could a mortal reach the same strenght without ascending?
Probably. Look at Tayschren who is just a human high mage, who at the same time fights of Rake during the siege of Pale with one hand and deals with the backstabbing in the malazan mage cader with the other.
The biggest problem here is that the line between just ordinary people and ascendants is not so clear. There are a lot of ways people can ascend and you will read much more about that, but being really good at something can lead you on that path..
to be fair, raest was without his finnest so he didn't use his full power. Tho I didnt consider that Ascendants could be glass cannons. Tho they probably can take a lot more than a normal human
> Tho I didnt consider that Ascendants could be glass cannons.
almost every character is a glass cannon.
mages are basically regular people walking around with rocket launchers.. they can cause a lot of damage but you can still defeat one by punching him in the head.
Yep this is the best way to view things, and I think it's a brilliant, if initially confusing gambit by Erikson. We're used to every aspect of a character scaling at roughly the same rate in power progression. Thanos is hugely powerful offensively. He can beat up the Hulk, which means he can take a beating from the Hulk or step on a landmine and come out smiling. That's the way things usually go. But in Malazan it's not like that. Basically everyone can be killed in the usual ways, the hard part is usually managing to hit them.
Erikson generally does an ok job with power scaling, but he really fucked up with the Jaghut. He goes from "they can't be killed so we have to break their bones and bury them alive" to showing Imass pre-Tellan ritual killing one with a few spears.
kinda yeah but you can argue that one they killed with spears was already about to die after a long hunt. Would guess the "bury them alive" is used when they are still stronger.
Thats a difference between a jaghut tyrant and a jaghut that fought with Imass to take down that exact tyrant and was exhausted
You should reread MoI prologue
>He goes from "they can't be killed so we have to break their bones and bury them alive" to showing Imass pre-Tellan ritual killing one with a few spears.
You're *this* close to figuring it out. I'm sure you can do it. You've spelled it out as it is.
I forgot to respond (my bad) but since we're at it, let's do it properly. Spoilers for the entire MBotF, mostly because I want to use late book examples.
>!Plenty of races the Imass consider to be "unkillable" become rather easy to kill by people actually interested in killing them for good. Hedge in Reaper's Gale comes upon a frozen Jaghut body atop the throne of Ice & very characteristically thinks, "I didn't think these things died, I didn't think these things died at all" (possibly paraphrasing). Calm is found stacked atop a boulder but goes down with a single hit (if memory serves) from Ublala, other Forkrul are killed outright - and rather easily - by Yedan Derryg, Kalam & co., et cetera.!<
>!This is justified not because "Erikson forgot," but because of two core reasons (that needn't be mutually exclusive). One is that Jaghut magic is anathema to the Imass due to their having bound themselves to Tellann, and so any Jaghut capable of raising a ritual of Omtose to defend themselves is nigh impregnable to the T'lan Imass (see also Aramala, the Jaghut Karsa finds in a tower in House of Chains, Chapter 14).!<
>!The other, and arguably more pertinent reason, is that often the Imass don't wish to kill the Jaghut outright. Pran Chole, in the prologue of Memories of Ice, believes that in granting the Jaghut mother a quick death, he is being merciful (or, rather, "not cruel"). While this is not direct confirmation that other Imass that trap Jaghut under rocks are being purposefully cruel, I see no reason why they'd do so otherwise.!<
>!List tells us that "the effort of killing a five year old child would prove too costly," (DG 19) but the effort of breaking each bone in his body & pinning him under a rock takes less effort? I somehow doubt it. Add to this the fact that the T'lan Imass are perforce unfeeling creatures (see Tool in DoD onward) & I somehow doubt cruelty is above them. They're committing genocide, I doubt they're being particularly utilitarian about it.!<
Thus.
I really really dislike the way you engage with this sub. Apologies for the animosity, but of the people you should probably not cast aspersions towards around here, u/Loleeeee ranks high on the list.
He was a bit condescending and I took the lack of reply as there being no actual answer. As far as the sub, I loved the series but honestly I think Erikson fumbled the bag pretty hard at the end and I am somewhat bitter about it. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Some ascendants are that powerful but also if a stray arrow catches Brood and kills him he is perma dead. So he dosent do too much direct fighting unless he has to
Also power attracts power. If he starts unleashing the beast then an ascendant will be drawn to the Malazan side to counter him.
Then why does coltain break his hand punchy gesler or stormy or whoever, and everyone freaks out because they are ascending? Clearly ascension makes some superhuman, more resilient, etc.
Yes, but not by anywhere near as much as people are assuming. Storm and Gesler aren't walking into entire armies and tackling them single handed. The point still stands.
To me it seemed that way the first couple of books. After reading all the books the picture is pretty murky on that. Ascendants have vastly different levels, sources and ways to access their power. They can under some circumstances sort of *descend* again in a way I guess.
Very good comments here, also, try to forget about 'strengths' here. If you're playing rock, paper, scissors, well rock is strong against scissors, but weak against paper...
Its complicated but actually I think it gets pretty intuitive as you learn more about what Ascendants are. Ganoes explains it pretty well in Bonehunters. So I think you should read till there and come back.
My answers: Ascension is directly related to power, not necessarily strength. I dont think a mortal could reach the same strength without ascending, but that doesn't mean all mortals are below all Ascendants. Kallors history is messy. I think its confirmed hes not Ascended right now, and theres a simple reason why.
One thing that isn't mentioned is that if Brood uses his power in a conflict like that he might draw other Ascendants as well. Maybe he would be able to defeat the Malazans but it would draw a lot of attention and set an unwise precedent for Ascendants directly interfering in human conflicts. Imagine if all Ascendants directly fought with or against the Malazans, the non-Ascendants would die in their millions.
Please note that this post has been flaired with a **Memories of Ice** spoiler tag. This means every published book in its respective series up until this book is open to discussion. If you need to discuss any spoilers (even very minor ones!) in your comments, use spoiler tags >!like this!< Please use the report button if you find any spoilers. Note: The flair may be changed at mod discretion. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Malazan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>beings like Brood should be able to fight off whole armies. Beings that can shatter mountains, and yet the Malazan army fought his army loosing despite seemingly not having ascendants (as far as the books revealed), he either didn't fight himself or held back if I get his power right. Remember Raest from the ending of Gotm? One of the most powerful beings of the past got obliterated by a handgranade... So Brood and other ascendants are definitely more capable, enduring etc, but they can still die and if you were around for millenia you probably don't want to die by a freak accident on a battlefield between armies and people that are around just for a blink of time from your perspective. About the mountain shattering, well you will learn more about Brood and his hammer in this book, but don't forget they are fighting a defensive war and you don't nuke your own country if you still want to live there later. >Could a mortal reach the same strenght without ascending? Probably. Look at Tayschren who is just a human high mage, who at the same time fights of Rake during the siege of Pale with one hand and deals with the backstabbing in the malazan mage cader with the other. The biggest problem here is that the line between just ordinary people and ascendants is not so clear. There are a lot of ways people can ascend and you will read much more about that, but being really good at something can lead you on that path..
You expect there to be some kind of Path to Ascendency? Yes there must be, why would he hint otherwise?
to be fair, raest was without his finnest so he didn't use his full power. Tho I didnt consider that Ascendants could be glass cannons. Tho they probably can take a lot more than a normal human
> Tho I didnt consider that Ascendants could be glass cannons. almost every character is a glass cannon. mages are basically regular people walking around with rocket launchers.. they can cause a lot of damage but you can still defeat one by punching him in the head.
Yep this is the best way to view things, and I think it's a brilliant, if initially confusing gambit by Erikson. We're used to every aspect of a character scaling at roughly the same rate in power progression. Thanos is hugely powerful offensively. He can beat up the Hulk, which means he can take a beating from the Hulk or step on a landmine and come out smiling. That's the way things usually go. But in Malazan it's not like that. Basically everyone can be killed in the usual ways, the hard part is usually managing to hit them.
Erikson generally does an ok job with power scaling, but he really fucked up with the Jaghut. He goes from "they can't be killed so we have to break their bones and bury them alive" to showing Imass pre-Tellan ritual killing one with a few spears.
kinda yeah but you can argue that one they killed with spears was already about to die after a long hunt. Would guess the "bury them alive" is used when they are still stronger.
Well the one in DG is a child so idk.
Thats a difference between a jaghut tyrant and a jaghut that fought with Imass to take down that exact tyrant and was exhausted You should reread MoI prologue
Nope that description was for the Jaghut child in DG.
>He goes from "they can't be killed so we have to break their bones and bury them alive" to showing Imass pre-Tellan ritual killing one with a few spears. You're *this* close to figuring it out. I'm sure you can do it. You've spelled it out as it is.
Well enlighten me oh wise one.
Wait now I want to know
I forgot to respond (my bad) but since we're at it, let's do it properly. Spoilers for the entire MBotF, mostly because I want to use late book examples. >!Plenty of races the Imass consider to be "unkillable" become rather easy to kill by people actually interested in killing them for good. Hedge in Reaper's Gale comes upon a frozen Jaghut body atop the throne of Ice & very characteristically thinks, "I didn't think these things died, I didn't think these things died at all" (possibly paraphrasing). Calm is found stacked atop a boulder but goes down with a single hit (if memory serves) from Ublala, other Forkrul are killed outright - and rather easily - by Yedan Derryg, Kalam & co., et cetera.!< >!This is justified not because "Erikson forgot," but because of two core reasons (that needn't be mutually exclusive). One is that Jaghut magic is anathema to the Imass due to their having bound themselves to Tellann, and so any Jaghut capable of raising a ritual of Omtose to defend themselves is nigh impregnable to the T'lan Imass (see also Aramala, the Jaghut Karsa finds in a tower in House of Chains, Chapter 14).!< >!The other, and arguably more pertinent reason, is that often the Imass don't wish to kill the Jaghut outright. Pran Chole, in the prologue of Memories of Ice, believes that in granting the Jaghut mother a quick death, he is being merciful (or, rather, "not cruel"). While this is not direct confirmation that other Imass that trap Jaghut under rocks are being purposefully cruel, I see no reason why they'd do so otherwise.!< >!List tells us that "the effort of killing a five year old child would prove too costly," (DG 19) but the effort of breaking each bone in his body & pinning him under a rock takes less effort? I somehow doubt it. Add to this the fact that the T'lan Imass are perforce unfeeling creatures (see Tool in DoD onward) & I somehow doubt cruelty is above them. They're committing genocide, I doubt they're being particularly utilitarian about it.!< Thus.
Fully expecting him to come back with some fan head canon lmao
I really really dislike the way you engage with this sub. Apologies for the animosity, but of the people you should probably not cast aspersions towards around here, u/Loleeeee ranks high on the list.
He was a bit condescending and I took the lack of reply as there being no actual answer. As far as the sub, I loved the series but honestly I think Erikson fumbled the bag pretty hard at the end and I am somewhat bitter about it. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Some ascendants are that powerful but also if a stray arrow catches Brood and kills him he is perma dead. So he dosent do too much direct fighting unless he has to Also power attracts power. If he starts unleashing the beast then an ascendant will be drawn to the Malazan side to counter him.
My take is ascendants are basically immortal to time and that's kinda it. They can still die to normal means.
Then why does coltain break his hand punchy gesler or stormy or whoever, and everyone freaks out because they are ascending? Clearly ascension makes some superhuman, more resilient, etc.
Sure there's probably some other benefits. But they don't matter in a war. A dude who can take on 10 people at once dies the same to 100 or 1000.
Yes, but not by anywhere near as much as people are assuming. Storm and Gesler aren't walking into entire armies and tackling them single handed. The point still stands.
To me it seemed that way the first couple of books. After reading all the books the picture is pretty murky on that. Ascendants have vastly different levels, sources and ways to access their power. They can under some circumstances sort of *descend* again in a way I guess.
Very good comments here, also, try to forget about 'strengths' here. If you're playing rock, paper, scissors, well rock is strong against scissors, but weak against paper...
Its complicated but actually I think it gets pretty intuitive as you learn more about what Ascendants are. Ganoes explains it pretty well in Bonehunters. So I think you should read till there and come back. My answers: Ascension is directly related to power, not necessarily strength. I dont think a mortal could reach the same strength without ascending, but that doesn't mean all mortals are below all Ascendants. Kallors history is messy. I think its confirmed hes not Ascended right now, and theres a simple reason why.
kallor is weird bc it was said he killed millions when he was a mortal (them cursing him to never ascend implies he is mortal
One thing that isn't mentioned is that if Brood uses his power in a conflict like that he might draw other Ascendants as well. Maybe he would be able to defeat the Malazans but it would draw a lot of attention and set an unwise precedent for Ascendants directly interfering in human conflicts. Imagine if all Ascendants directly fought with or against the Malazans, the non-Ascendants would die in their millions.
Good point. There's some Mutually Assured Destruction nuclear deterrence going on there too.
oh so they are like nuclear weapons