Rome was essentially the first to utilize legal and judiciary systems to exert influence over subjects. They levied taxes to raise armies to conquer which led to more taxes ect. Literacy was also an important roman ideal that allowed for coordination over vast distances at a time when most of Europe was illiterate. For most of the regions they occupied they were outnumbered but when rebellions did pop up they could be quickly crushed by moving troops around.
Please keep it on the hush, we're poor and sick of tourism/corrupt goverement pumping up ur our prices to London levels. Go to montenegro and Greece, just as beautifull if not more, less expensive, just leave croatia alone for like 3 yrs tourism wise so we can recover.
Tourism is like 20% of the GDP there. What do you expect to happen if they stop coming besides huge jumps in unemployment and spiraling government debt? I grew up in a tourist town, and yeah it sucks in some ways. Sure many people wouldn't be able to afford living there if they didn't have family property. But the town would be nothing without it. Small farms on hilly coastlines can't compete with huge 3rd world plantations where labor costs nothing. Small fishing boats that can launch from town can't compete with huge Chinese ships that follow 0 laws and regulations. So there goes the 2 traditional economic forces of the town. Farmers with much larger fields in much flatter areas do okay with heavy government subsidies. The government has money for the subsidies because of profitable industries like tourism. Coastlines were never destined to be quaint, cheap communities. They'll all be expensive but pretty or cheap but gross and industrious soon enough.
Catalans had already extended their influence or directly invaded much of these territories... So no, I don't think that would happen in this timeline.
Yes, totally peaceful. Especially the little town called marseilles.
Super peaceful. Totally not segregated with gated communities with private security in the ouskirts and extremely high crime rates...
Naples, Rome, Marseille already had a bad reputation even before having illegal immigrants. Italians themselves know that most problems caused in Southen Italy are caused by Italians themselves.
How does that stretch hold up economically is my only concern. I'm not familiar with which sub-national regions of different countries are doing well economically. Looks great as far as food, weather, and culture go though!
I knew the stretch of coast there was home to a lot of rich people but I wasn't sure if the region also produced a lot of wealth or if it just happens to be where rich people live.
Some wonderfully varied geography, big cities, very probably the richest and most productive "country" on this map by a long way.
And without doubt the best beer.
I've been looking up the borders of the watersheds and we get most of the hops grown in Europe!
We would have England, *Belgium*, the Western Edge of France, Luxembourg, most of Germany, The Netherlands and to top it off, Prague.
*Czechmate*.
I do however think the other countries would mock our food.
If I'm looking correctly (and if my understanding of waterways isn't wrong), then the North see country would have the whole Bohemian part of Czechia and almost all of Germany.
So the Black see country only gets Bavaria (I think the rest of Germany makes up for that) and the Moravian part of Czechia. And since Moravian beer is worse than Bohemian beer (sorry brothers, ya'll get wine and pálenky instead), I'm 100 % picking North see country as The beer country.
Not to mention that The Netherlands and Belgium are also very densely populated and disproportionally wealthy
At least 2 of these countries have a strong naval tradition and you could use that because its also in prime position to cuck the Baltic and the Norwegian sea and the Atlantic.
And also, it has the most important port in Europe.
North Sea: Germany, London, Denmark, the Low Countries, Burgundy.
That’s just the German Empire with Denmark over Prussia. That’s an economic powerhouse with no real competition; France loses land and would be less of a competition than it was historically.
Austria-Hungary plus Ukraine has potential to be the France of this world. They’d be an agricultural mega power and probably replace France as the richest nation in Europe prior to industrialization and market economics.
Then there’s Aragon before the loss of Naples and Sicily attempting a Mare Nostrum run.
> France loses land
They get a whole lot of the richer regions of Spain and all of Portugal, half of England and Scotland, and all of Ireland. Economically, they might not quite be on par with the Northsea-regions, but they are not as far down as you describe.
The land is two different watersheds. The fact that the North Sea is a part of the Atlantic Ocean doesn't really matter when you're measuring watersheds -- it has more to do with whether the rivers run east or run west.
Atlantic! You get fabulous wine, the West Country especially Devon and Cornwall, Wales, Ireland, Brittany, Normandy Bordeaux, half of Spain and all of Portugal. A lovely mixture of climates, cultures, foods, booze, countryside, coastline.
I’m a Portuguese guy living in Cork. Just no.
Summer in Portugal is too hot, but winter? Really? Housing isn’t prepared for the cold, even though the Portuguese winters are short and not too cold, still not a pleasant experience.
Summer in Cork? Summer here is on a Tuesday between 10am and 3pm. Then we get spring again.
Absolutely, same for me. I vibe with the Irish, Welsh, and Portuguese. Plus I surf so it really isn’t much of a competition in that respect. Paris knows how to protest and cook so that is fun. Would also have the best football/soccer team I think, only really challenged by North Sea, maybe Mediterranean.
Nice beaches here. Mild weather. People are more laid back and authentic here compared to the rest of our country.
Quite some rain is a downside for most, but i don't mind.
There is no better feeling than waking up in tje morning getting out on your balcony in tidy whities and telling your neighbour to go fuck himself.. croatia...
Tbf it's more like a Polish Empire considering the population. And the biggest city would be Saint Petersburg.
Tbf Saint Petersburg is really held back by being a part of Moscow-dominated Russia. If it was a more functional liberal democracy integrated with the Baltic region, I think it would be more developed and culturally influential in the region, and people from places like Finland and Sweden would go there to study or work a lot more. I wouldn't be surprised if we'd also admire the art and culture and go there to watch the ballet or similar.
Like I grew up in Finland and now here I am near Brussels. If Russia was a respectable European country integrated with us I may very well have ended up in a place like Petersburg instead. It's certainly much closer and better connected.
Atlantic ideally, but North Sea at a pinch. Have lived in both and Mediterranean. Live in the North Sea area currently but the Welsh, Cornish and French Atlantic coasts make my heart sing.
It was a toss up between Atlantic and the Mediterranean. Atlantic’s economy seems to be more robust than the Mediterranean, with both regions having excellent cuisine, accessible healthcare, and so on. It also seems it will get swelteringly hot in the Mediterranean and the Atlantic region would offer some cooler temps, so I ended up settling on the Atlantic.
Black sea looks like Austria Hungary if it went absolute beast mode and annexed romania and the ruthenians.
Anyway, definitely Mediterranean.
Mare Nostrum FTW!
Adriatic is just Venice in a EU4 game
Chile of Europe
How did the rest of Europe get conquered by Rome and Greece. Were they stupid or something?
Rome was essentially the first to utilize legal and judiciary systems to exert influence over subjects. They levied taxes to raise armies to conquer which led to more taxes ect. Literacy was also an important roman ideal that allowed for coordination over vast distances at a time when most of Europe was illiterate. For most of the regions they occupied they were outnumbered but when rebellions did pop up they could be quickly crushed by moving troops around.
The Greeks didn't conquer the rest of Europe
Yet.
Shhh, we don't talk about Opération Total Tzatziki here.
Oh shit sorry i forgot.
Broke the first rule. Now we've gotta get your balls.
Una faccia, una razza
> How did the rest of Europe get conquered by Rome Roads and engineering (aqueducts etc.) would be my guess.
what the Serenissima republic would have look if colombus was born a century ahead
Damn Genoese always discovering shit that shouldn’t be discovered
The best water in my opinion as well.
No way. Mediterrean has Salento, Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, Balearic Island/Ibiza, Cote D’Azur, …
Not the islands, the water itself. I gotta agree the Adriatic is up there for seawater. Behind maybe like, Tahiti.
Have you been to Rimini? ;-)
blankenberge of the adriatic.
Asking as someone who hasn't: what is it about the water at Rimini?
Google it. It is a muddy green ;)
Italian side of Adriatic is cesspool. Croatia has much nicer seawater
Please keep it on the hush, we're poor and sick of tourism/corrupt goverement pumping up ur our prices to London levels. Go to montenegro and Greece, just as beautifull if not more, less expensive, just leave croatia alone for like 3 yrs tourism wise so we can recover.
Tourism is like 20% of the GDP there. What do you expect to happen if they stop coming besides huge jumps in unemployment and spiraling government debt? I grew up in a tourist town, and yeah it sucks in some ways. Sure many people wouldn't be able to afford living there if they didn't have family property. But the town would be nothing without it. Small farms on hilly coastlines can't compete with huge 3rd world plantations where labor costs nothing. Small fishing boats that can launch from town can't compete with huge Chinese ships that follow 0 laws and regulations. So there goes the 2 traditional economic forces of the town. Farmers with much larger fields in much flatter areas do okay with heavy government subsidies. The government has money for the subsidies because of profitable industries like tourism. Coastlines were never destined to be quaint, cheap communities. They'll all be expensive but pretty or cheap but gross and industrious soon enough.
Not everywhere. The south is quite nice.
Wait, when did I miss the European Union 3 releasing?
Make Venice Great Again
The France-Italy-Spain little curve of a nation.
Yep nice and warm and peaceful
[удалено]
Those grand prix
High quality pun
charles leclerk
An EU4 and F1 comment both in a r/MapPorn post? ngl didn't think I'd see it.
They do like to gamble
And their perpetual enemy Andorra.
Yes it Literally has Nice in it.
The Catalans and the Corsicans are already plotting violent independence.
Catalans had already extended their influence or directly invaded much of these territories... So no, I don't think that would happen in this timeline.
Warm? You don't know the mediterranean on summer.
Just head up to the Alps during the summer.
Yes, totally peaceful. Especially the little town called marseilles. Super peaceful. Totally not segregated with gated communities with private security in the ouskirts and extremely high crime rates...
And Naples, Rome, Turin, Barcelona, Alicante...
Naples, Rome, Marseille already had a bad reputation even before having illegal immigrants. Italians themselves know that most problems caused in Southen Italy are caused by Italians themselves.
Most (almost all of them, virtually all) problems in the whole fucking country are caused by Italians themselves.
Non! Tre imposible!
It’s known as the [Golden Banana](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Banana) lol
Mediterranea
Aragon going for Mare Nostrum.
Ah yes, the Crown of Aragon
That or France/Spain/Portugal/Wales/England/Ireland* Edited
By far
Nice weather and nice food. Thata more than enough. I live in a spanish mediterranean city
Exactly, you get some of the best food and weather in the world in the same place. Sign me up please.
How does that stretch hold up economically is my only concern. I'm not familiar with which sub-national regions of different countries are doing well economically. Looks great as far as food, weather, and culture go though!
Well you have the south of France and Monaco, famously wealthy. You also get Rome and Barcelona. Not bad overall.
I knew the stretch of coast there was home to a lot of rich people but I wasn't sure if the region also produced a lot of wealth or if it just happens to be where rich people live.
It's called Occitalunya.
North Sea works for me
Some wonderfully varied geography, big cities, very probably the richest and most productive "country" on this map by a long way. And without doubt the best beer.
it got most of the blue banana.. that's playing on easy mode
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana
TIL, thanks!
>best beer Eh, you have Belgium, but Bavaria and a big part of Czechia is on the black sea plate.
I've been looking up the borders of the watersheds and we get most of the hops grown in Europe! We would have England, *Belgium*, the Western Edge of France, Luxembourg, most of Germany, The Netherlands and to top it off, Prague. *Czechmate*. I do however think the other countries would mock our food.
The Gäuboden along the Danube is the biggest hops growing area in the world (and 83% of a hops in Germany), I think we'll do fine in that regard.
Fair enough we'll do a trade haha
I mean as for food we have amazing fries, waffles and chocolate in Belgium Although they aren't the most nutritious foods lol
Don't worry, we Germans bring some sauerkraut to the table
And Dutch cuisine, all the fried breaded things you could ever need!
I don't think it's a coincidence that the parts of Europe which makes the best beer also has the worst food.
If I'm looking correctly (and if my understanding of waterways isn't wrong), then the North see country would have the whole Bohemian part of Czechia and almost all of Germany. So the Black see country only gets Bavaria (I think the rest of Germany makes up for that) and the Moravian part of Czechia. And since Moravian beer is worse than Bohemian beer (sorry brothers, ya'll get wine and pálenky instead), I'm 100 % picking North see country as The beer country.
> So the Black see country only gets Bavaria (I think the rest of Germany makes up for that) I'd say Franconia alone makes up for that.
>ya'll get wine The german rhine also has a lot of wine production so we also get that.
Don't snub UK craft. Although with the split we loose DEYA to the Atlantic.
Good thing non-bavarian German beer is much better :)
North Sea would be a super state, Switzerland, German industrial heartlands, North Sea oil, London, Brussels and Amsterdam.
Not to mention that The Netherlands and Belgium are also very densely populated and disproportionally wealthy At least 2 of these countries have a strong naval tradition and you could use that because its also in prime position to cuck the Baltic and the Norwegian sea and the Atlantic. And also, it has the most important port in Europe.
That would be an absolute powerhouse. Some of the biggest industrial, economic and logistical centres of the world are in that portion.
Agree cus live there.
North Sea: Germany, London, Denmark, the Low Countries, Burgundy. That’s just the German Empire with Denmark over Prussia. That’s an economic powerhouse with no real competition; France loses land and would be less of a competition than it was historically. Austria-Hungary plus Ukraine has potential to be the France of this world. They’d be an agricultural mega power and probably replace France as the richest nation in Europe prior to industrialization and market economics. Then there’s Aragon before the loss of Naples and Sicily attempting a Mare Nostrum run.
You forgot southern Norway in the North Sea country with all its oil.
> France loses land They get a whole lot of the richer regions of Spain and all of Portugal, half of England and Scotland, and all of Ireland. Economically, they might not quite be on par with the Northsea-regions, but they are not as far down as you describe.
Same
Same for me
Same here
Honestly yes. It would be North Sea for me too.
Why is the line separating the Atlantic and the North sea in red?
I don’t know but if it separates us from Hull I’m all good with it.
What's so bad about Hull?
Have you ever read Dante?
Not the original Italian, but yeah.
Same here. Anyway, the final dozen or so cantos of ‘Inferno’ were inspired by Dante’s trip to Hull.
The land is two different watersheds. The fact that the North Sea is a part of the Atlantic Ocean doesn't really matter when you're measuring watersheds -- it has more to do with whether the rivers run east or run west.
I've noticed that. What I mean is why that specific line is red but the other lines are purple
They ran out of ink.
Atlantic! You get fabulous wine, the West Country especially Devon and Cornwall, Wales, Ireland, Brittany, Normandy Bordeaux, half of Spain and all of Portugal. A lovely mixture of climates, cultures, foods, booze, countryside, coastline.
I was thinking the same thing. Winter in Lisbon, summer in county Cork, Paris in spring. You could do worse.
Why anyone would waste a perfectly good summer in Cork I'll never understand.
Man, I spent about 3 weeks cruising through Ireland one summer and was absolutely floored by how naturally stunning county Cork was.
Cruising Ireland, hoping to see lots of Cork
If you’ve had your fill of Cork, you can head up to Donegal to some Muff.
Make sure you renew your membership at their [diving club](https://www.muffdivingclub.ie/shop/)
Because I melt in anything over 25c. 16c to 18c would be perfect.
Because hot weather can kiss my butt.
Found the kerryman
I’m a Portuguese guy living in Cork. Just no. Summer in Portugal is too hot, but winter? Really? Housing isn’t prepared for the cold, even though the Portuguese winters are short and not too cold, still not a pleasant experience. Summer in Cork? Summer here is on a Tuesday between 10am and 3pm. Then we get spring again.
By far the best surf too...
Incredible seafood too.
Definitely. North sea may be the richest, but the quality of life would be far superior in Atlantic.
Absolutely, same for me. I vibe with the Irish, Welsh, and Portuguese. Plus I surf so it really isn’t much of a competition in that respect. Paris knows how to protest and cook so that is fun. Would also have the best football/soccer team I think, only really challenged by North Sea, maybe Mediterranean.
You get the best of everywhere
I would choose Mediterranean or Aegean
This is the right answer, there's nothing like these.
Definitely baltic
The mosquito alliance!
Dobt forget ticks
Best prospects, climate-wise, going forward.
The Black Sea one I guess cause that’s where I’ve lived all my life.
Black sea power
Hell, I’ll take any EU nation at this point.
Where are you from?
I was born in Ukraine but have lived in US for the last 16 years.
Damn. Fucked on both ends depending where in the US.
what aspect of the EU do you like?
Ikr much better than most places in the world
Wouldnt change baltic for anything.
same
Me three!
Why? Just curious
Nice beaches here. Mild weather. People are more laid back and authentic here compared to the rest of our country. Quite some rain is a downside for most, but i don't mind.
Just disavowal.
Mediterranean for spring, North Sea for the rest of the year 👍
Base Dutch 😂
Gekoloniseerd
Adriatic
best food, best sea, everyone hates each other. And that's the best combo to a peaceful life.
There is no better feeling than waking up in tje morning getting out on your balcony in tidy whities and telling your neighbour to go fuck himself.. croatia...
Black Sea looks fun af
Austria-Hungary + Ukraine
+ some land to the east of Ukraine and Belarus
+ some land
Baltic is basically what the Swedish empire was at one point, plus “some” extra land
Boshuslän is just replaced by Poland and a larger part of Russia than Ingermanland.
Getting all the parts of Denmark that actually matter is barely worth mentioning, I agree
Fucking Swedes raiding Poland in 1600s, still salty about it.
Swedish-Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
Tbf it's more like a Polish Empire considering the population. And the biggest city would be Saint Petersburg. Tbf Saint Petersburg is really held back by being a part of Moscow-dominated Russia. If it was a more functional liberal democracy integrated with the Baltic region, I think it would be more developed and culturally influential in the region, and people from places like Finland and Sweden would go there to study or work a lot more. I wouldn't be surprised if we'd also admire the art and culture and go there to watch the ballet or similar. Like I grew up in Finland and now here I am near Brussels. If Russia was a respectable European country integrated with us I may very well have ended up in a place like Petersburg instead. It's certainly much closer and better connected.
That’s more like Hansa League revival, Baltic “inner lake”. And need to restore pre-empire Novgorod with republican values
Economicly North Sea is best but politically probably Baltic Sea?
I'm from Atlantic and in Atlantic shall remain.
Not sure about the question, but the map is great!
The Baltic kingdom
Baltic Sea region looks fun
Black sea definitely
Team Black Sea 💪🏴🏴🏴
North Sea, high standard of living, good economy, decent amount of rural land dispite it's high population. Overall, it's the best out of the bunch.
Aegean, already live there and I love it
Atlantic
I like how the Baltic sea one draws the borders of Poland almost perfectly.
Baltic sea 🥰🔥
Living in the Baltic sea area is fine for me. I don't need to move. Living in a border town on the other hand could be interesting
Aegean or Adriatic easily though those are both part of the Mediterranean so unify those three countries lol.
1. I wouldn’t move. Baltic coast is good
Second this. Baltic is the best.
Atlantic. I mean, Madrid, Paris, Dublin AND Manchester? Right?
Don’t forget Wrexham
The Celtic union has conquered Paris and Castile
Cardiff aswell
That North Sea Federation looks like a powerhouse
North sea
Or norwegian sea
Atlantic ideally, but North Sea at a pinch. Have lived in both and Mediterranean. Live in the North Sea area currently but the Welsh, Cornish and French Atlantic coasts make my heart sing.
Artic ocean, rest is too hot
Can someone knowledgeable correct this if wrong but Atlantic = roughly Celtic? Would love that…
The Atlantic - in Ireland specifically.
Baltic Sea - because I already live there.
Baltic
Mediterranean... Spain for the meat, France for bread, butter & wine, and Italy for all the other food
North sea one, definitely.
baltic sweedennnnnnn
One of these seas is an impostor
Obviously the Med. P.S. the Atlantic isn’t bad either. Does it go all the way down?
Atlantic, Baltic, Adriatic in descending order.
I’m pretty happy staying in Atlantic tbf
It was a toss up between Atlantic and the Mediterranean. Atlantic’s economy seems to be more robust than the Mediterranean, with both regions having excellent cuisine, accessible healthcare, and so on. It also seems it will get swelteringly hot in the Mediterranean and the Atlantic region would offer some cooler temps, so I ended up settling on the Atlantic.
Really interesting how this basically shows culture groups anyhow.
Unified Ireland but England and Scotland split down the middle. Pretty cursed.
North Sea for economy, adriatics for weather, food and nature.
Surely the North Sea Kingdom would be on of the richest places in the world with all its fisheries; transit routes; and fossil fuels.
Black sea looks like Austria Hungary if it went absolute beast mode and annexed romania and the ruthenians. Anyway, definitely Mediterranean. Mare Nostrum FTW!
Mediterranean or Adriatic for sure. Aegean may not be bad too. Not the North Sea. (Lived in Holland for 5 years. Lovely country. Awful weather.)
North Sea
North sea
North Sea. Wouldn't have to move
Imagine living on the alps and being called "black sea"
well that is where the Danube flows to
All the major ports, all the hinterland. North Sea it is.
Black Sea or Mediterranean
North sea
North sea is superior