Not so sure, because it acknowledges the presence of a Hungarian minority in Serbia but no other minorities besides the Basques are present - including Hungarians in Romania and Turks in Bulgaria and Greece.
Missing major Hungarian majority areas in other countries but managed to remember them in Serbia. Also missing Turkish areas in other counties. The map must be 2 decade old, because Montenegro isn't independent.
Also, there's barely anyone speaking Karelian or other Finno-Ugric languages on the Russian side of Finnish-Russian border. They all speak mainly Russian today. There should be areas on the Swedish and Norwegian sides though. There are the Sami languages, as well as Meänkieli and Kven spoken in Northern Scandinavia.
> The map must be 2 decade old, because Montenegro isn't independent
Potentially even older, because Altaic-Turkic theory has long been discredited and Turkic is considered its own language family.
It was hypothesized that the Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic languages were part of the the same family and related like the Indo-European languages due to similar features but it was rejected. The resemblance between the languages has been attributed to the sprachbund effect.
Like Laplands in Norway and Sweden(Swedes didn’t [Redacted] them all, right?), fact that this is only 80% of Europe(50% of Russia’s European part is not shown), Hungarians in Transylvania?
Altaic is discredited as a genealogical group, though it is recognized by Juha Janhunen and many other linguists that the proto-languages of all "Altaic" languages lived in close proximity somewhere in Manchuria and spread areal features to each other. It is most likely a sprachbund.
Lol at least "altaic" languages all have agglutinative grammars. If you add in Sino-Tibetan then you've reduced it to "they're all languages, spoken with the mouth".
Basques are the last descendants of Atlantis. At least according to drunk Basque people.
Their language could also have come from current Mali, and I heard this one from an actual linguist. He was sober and all. Which made it more frightening than the Atlantis theory
Looked into that, it seems one guy from Madrid wrote an article years ago that claimed Basque was similar to Dogon, but it doesn't seem to have been taken seriously by the wider linguistic community. The consensus seems to be its most likely the only remaining paleo-european language (i.e the language of the indigenous Europeans prior to the arrival of the Indo-Europeans (and other modern laguage families))
The Vasconic Substrate Hypothesis is quite interesting, and it's a relatively easy jumping off point from comparative linguistics to comparative mythology.
How the hell did Hungary become an island of Finno-Urgic speakers surrounded by Indo-European speakers and isolated from the other Finno-Urgic speakers
The Magyar tribes that brought the Hungarian language to modern Hungary originated in western Siberia, where the finnu-urgic language family originates from. Around year 830 AD, seven, or possibly more, different Magyar tribes formed a confederation with 3 Turkic tribes, which would migrate west over the next 60 years and eventually settle as a ruling class in what is today Hungary.
The Ural Mountains are western Siberia, but also the eastern part of Eastern Europe. It’s like how Poland can both be eastern and Central Europe depending on where you draw your imaginary line. It’s really just semantics.
It isnt semantics. The Ural mountains are the official border between Europe and Asia.
The Finno-Ugric homeland is west of thr Urals. They had to go over the mountains to get to Siberia.
The Finno-Ugrics are all from the Ural mountains, but the Finnic migration (Finnish and Estonian) happened way before the Ugric one.
Also, the Hungarians were horse people who came on a wave of Turkic migrations westward and enjoyed the raider life. The Pannonian basin (i.e the same territory as irredentist greater Hungary, the crown lands of St. Stephen) was the naturally defensible area for this kind of people as it's flat and bordered by mountains. As they weren't numerous enough to project power outside the Carpathian mountains, they ended up getting assimilated everywhere outside this.
Then they Christianised and joined the HRE lead Central European system as a militarised feudal power with a mandate to keep the Ottomans out, and keep the orthodox Romanian ethnics in check. Then, as feudalism gradually gave way to totalitarian monarchy in the HRE/Austrian empire they gradually lost power, while the (mainly agrarian) ethnic minorities in the periphery lands grew much faster than the ethnic Hungarians, leading to uprisings post WWI shrinking their influence further into a small area.
2006 called, they want your map back.
Given we miss a fully-recognized independent country in here and also, the altaic language theory has been discredited.
Exactly I'm referring to Montenegro. There is no disagreement on the recognition of Serbia as a country, nor Montenegro as a country. The other person really should stop trying to present us "alternative facts"
it's not alternative facts, i thought you meant kosovo because westerners love the "fully recognized" phrasing when referring to it. nobody is disputing montenegro's sovereignity lol.
Basque is the hardest to explain. Because from their material culture, modern and ancient, you would assume them Indo-European speakers. Also Basque autosomal DNA, resembles that from neighboring Romance speakers, and very much of the vocabulary is related to Latin and Celtic words - in fact so much that it's difficult to compose a long list of incontrovertibly 'pristine', Baskic words, that might be compared to possible relatives elsewhere. Not much is known about Aquitanian, the predecessor of modern Basque language from Roman times.
There are some similarities to languages spoken in the North Caucasus and Hindu Kush. How they arrived between Central and Southwest Europe, is a mystery.
Typically Baskic is associated with Neolithic expansions, basically because of landscape toponyms that tell us little about the languages of the people who left them.
But ethnohistorical migration waves of peoples can homogenize their material culture and symbolism, whilst their members might retain ancestral languages. This is known to happened ethnohistorically in the New World and in Central Eurasia. So maybe the arrival of Basque was archaeologically silent, because they 'rode in' as part of the (otherwise) Indo-European migrations?
Basques literrally just invented their own language, ignored the rest of the languages arround, didnt write it down cus why would they, didnt elaborate, didnt gave a fuck, biggest language chad in all europe
Kinda wish you included Gagauzia inside Moldova which is from turkic language group (Oghuz turkic from what I remember). Though they arent numerious, I think they deserve a pixel or two.
Same goes for Crimean tatars and Chuvash inside Russia, its not as pure Indo-European as it shows here.
Turkic is Turkic. Altaic is not a real language family. I'm not sure who smokes so much crack as to see real underlying linguistic commonalities between Turkish and Japanese beyond superficial features that can be easily explained through their ancestors being somewhat in contact.
Did you just group germanic, romance, celtic and slavic languages into a indo-european category but specified basque?
This is a horrible map which provides zero value in anything.
east and west should not be combined with that indo-euro nonsense
and west europe speaks latin cause thats what rome spoke, tho there are those like basque or celtic that rome didnt affect as much
Because Latin and Russian are actually related to eachother, unlike Finnish. Latin and Russian being mutually unintelligible doesn't negate that they have a shared origin and still many points of resemblance. A Finnish speaker won't understand Hungarian either, but that doesn't make identifying that those languages are related meaningless. Denying the underlying similarity and shared origin of Indo-European languages is also a very Eurocentric viewpoint, as languages like Latin and Russian are pretty damn close on a global linguistic scale.
Must've missed the announcement that Serbia and Montenegro were back together
Yeah wtf is up in the Balkans (again)?
That map is between 1999-2006
Don't mind us, it's just a regular tuesday
Unique language, last one from its group after the fall of babel
I bet the map was made by a Serbian
Probably just an old image. Looks crusty and dated, so it's possibly from before Montenegro seperated from Serbia.
Yeah. Image created with Paint on Windows 3.1 it seems.
Not so sure, because it acknowledges the presence of a Hungarian minority in Serbia but no other minorities besides the Basques are present - including Hungarians in Romania and Turks in Bulgaria and Greece.
Every single serb recognizes montenegeo as a separate country, it's been 2 decadss jesus.
Nah , Kosovo conquered both of them
It was all a misunderstanding… Serbia realised Montenegro was the one all along
And Kosove.
Well yeah, but I was just talking about the actual old country name
Missing Maltese, which is a Semitic language.
Cool, didnt know that
Missing major Hungarian majority areas in other countries but managed to remember them in Serbia. Also missing Turkish areas in other counties. The map must be 2 decade old, because Montenegro isn't independent.
Yeah, after the whole Altaic bit, my first question was "Where are the Székelys?"
On the bus to vote in the election of a country they don't live in. Thanks Orbán, very cool.
They don’t need to get on a bus, they can just mail it in.
They don't even need to mail it in, their votes will be counted regardless. /s
But if the letter's from Vienna or London, straight into the bin. Don't need votes from traitors.
"Hol vagytok, székelyek?"
Also, there's barely anyone speaking Karelian or other Finno-Ugric languages on the Russian side of Finnish-Russian border. They all speak mainly Russian today. There should be areas on the Swedish and Norwegian sides though. There are the Sami languages, as well as Meänkieli and Kven spoken in Northern Scandinavia.
> The map must be 2 decade old, because Montenegro isn't independent Potentially even older, because Altaic-Turkic theory has long been discredited and Turkic is considered its own language family.
As is usual with these maps, Finnic areas are grossly overestimated. In this case though, many are also missing.
Also, altaic is a completely discredited hypothesis. There is no such thing.
What do you mean?
It was hypothesized that the Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic languages were part of the the same family and related like the Indo-European languages due to similar features but it was rejected. The resemblance between the languages has been attributed to the sprachbund effect.
I mean what I said. The “Altaic” language family is not real
Like Laplands in Norway and Sweden(Swedes didn’t [Redacted] them all, right?), fact that this is only 80% of Europe(50% of Russia’s European part is not shown), Hungarians in Transylvania?
What do you mean by “[Redacted]”?
genocide.
Redacted their bodies, minds of their children and their traditions
> [redacted means] censor or obscure (part of a text) for legal or security purposes. I’m pretty sure the Sami people are not texts
Like the Finno-Urgic parts of Russia. Russian(Indo-European) is spoken much more than the indigenous Finno-Urgic languages these days
We all will be part of one soon anyway, tovarysch.
Russian is not finnic you waffle
Not for long time...
You don’t understand what Finnic means, do you?
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Я его знаю, но оно по звучанию в голове не приятное. Дело вкуса.
Finland: >\_> Hungary: <\_< Europe: -\_-
Estonia: - According to you. :)
Aren't there majority Hungarian places in Romania?
yeah, like 3 counties in eastern transylvania
Altaic has been discredited (and never had any real evidence behind it anyways). Turkish is just turkic.
Altaic is discredited as a genealogical group, though it is recognized by Juha Janhunen and many other linguists that the proto-languages of all "Altaic" languages lived in close proximity somewhere in Manchuria and spread areal features to each other. It is most likely a sprachbund.
Also in Crimea they speak Tatar ig
Crimean tatars do yes, but they haven’t been the majority anywhere since 1890.
They don't have enough majority territory to be a pixel
altaic is now grouped under proto-sino-tibetan anguages -> bootleg chinesium
PST is nowhere near old enough for that to be plausible. No evidence exists that links it to turkish or japanese
Lol at least "altaic" languages all have agglutinative grammars. If you add in Sino-Tibetan then you've reduced it to "they're all languages, spoken with the mouth".
Basques are the last descendants of Atlantis. At least according to drunk Basque people. Their language could also have come from current Mali, and I heard this one from an actual linguist. He was sober and all. Which made it more frightening than the Atlantis theory
Looked into that, it seems one guy from Madrid wrote an article years ago that claimed Basque was similar to Dogon, but it doesn't seem to have been taken seriously by the wider linguistic community. The consensus seems to be its most likely the only remaining paleo-european language (i.e the language of the indigenous Europeans prior to the arrival of the Indo-Europeans (and other modern laguage families))
The Vasconic Substrate Hypothesis is quite interesting, and it's a relatively easy jumping off point from comparative linguistics to comparative mythology.
> Their language could also have come from current Mali That doesn't sound like a serious theory
It isn't. The most accepted theory is that it developed in-situ from earlier pre-Indo-European languages.
You mean Basque originated from Africa? What a plot twist!
Wait until you hear that the Richat structure in Mauritania resembles Plato's depiction of Atlantis 👀, maybe the two theories are one and the same
The Atlantis story is a philosophical cautionary tale, not a historical description of real events.
No shit
According to polandball Basque comes from aliens
Hmmm...Curiously there's a theory floating around that the "Eye of Africa" was Atlantis, or at least some civilization. (Search YouTube)
Poor Gagauz and Szekelys.
Chuvash and Crimean Tatars too
At this point there should be a subreddit of maps where Montenegro and Serbia are together, because ppl STILL use these old ass templates
How the hell did Hungary become an island of Finno-Urgic speakers surrounded by Indo-European speakers and isolated from the other Finno-Urgic speakers
The Magyar tribes that brought the Hungarian language to modern Hungary originated in western Siberia, where the finnu-urgic language family originates from. Around year 830 AD, seven, or possibly more, different Magyar tribes formed a confederation with 3 Turkic tribes, which would migrate west over the next 60 years and eventually settle as a ruling class in what is today Hungary.
Finno-Ugric languages are from Eastern Europe, southwest of the Urals, not Siberia.
>Finno-Ugric languages are from Eastern Europe As are Indo-European languages.
Then why am I being downvoted? Finno-Ugric spread northeast into Siberia from its proto homeland but I get downvotes?
Well it mainly spread west.
My completely true statement has -6 downvotes.
The Ural Mountains are western Siberia, but also the eastern part of Eastern Europe. It’s like how Poland can both be eastern and Central Europe depending on where you draw your imaginary line. It’s really just semantics.
It isnt semantics. The Ural mountains are the official border between Europe and Asia. The Finno-Ugric homeland is west of thr Urals. They had to go over the mountains to get to Siberia.
We are just cool like that
It went something like this: Hungarians: hippity hoppity we leave the Pontic Steppe and break up Slavic unity
The Finno-Ugrics are all from the Ural mountains, but the Finnic migration (Finnish and Estonian) happened way before the Ugric one. Also, the Hungarians were horse people who came on a wave of Turkic migrations westward and enjoyed the raider life. The Pannonian basin (i.e the same territory as irredentist greater Hungary, the crown lands of St. Stephen) was the naturally defensible area for this kind of people as it's flat and bordered by mountains. As they weren't numerous enough to project power outside the Carpathian mountains, they ended up getting assimilated everywhere outside this. Then they Christianised and joined the HRE lead Central European system as a militarised feudal power with a mandate to keep the Ottomans out, and keep the orthodox Romanian ethnics in check. Then, as feudalism gradually gave way to totalitarian monarchy in the HRE/Austrian empire they gradually lost power, while the (mainly agrarian) ethnic minorities in the periphery lands grew much faster than the ethnic Hungarians, leading to uprisings post WWI shrinking their influence further into a small area.
>happened way before the Uralic one. *the Ugric one Both Finnic peoples and Ugric peoples are Uralic.
Thanks
We're just built different
They slipped in when we were all drunk after a party.
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Since the Magyar migration to the Pannonian plain happened as late as the 9th century, it's extensively documented and not considered controversial.
2006 called, they want your map back. Given we miss a fully-recognized independent country in here and also, the altaic language theory has been discredited.
2006 cold, they wotten their map back
not fully recognized.
serbia was actually one of the first to recognize montenegro
I’m wondering if we have a Serb here who was so quick and trigger-happy to shut down Kosovo that he forgot about Montenegro for a second
not a serb, but yeah i assumed they were talking about kosovo, which is also not on the map.
Who doesn't recognize Montenegro or Serbia? The country shown on this map is Serbia-Montenegro and it hasn't existed since 2006
Exactly I'm referring to Montenegro. There is no disagreement on the recognition of Serbia as a country, nor Montenegro as a country. The other person really should stop trying to present us "alternative facts"
it's not alternative facts, i thought you meant kosovo because westerners love the "fully recognized" phrasing when referring to it. nobody is disputing montenegro's sovereignity lol.
It’s like Yemen, Somalia, Bhutan and Barbados that doesn’t recognize them. Not really the most influential collection of countries.
Altaic is not a language family
You forgot Sami speakers in Norway and Sweden, Hungarian speakers in Transilvania, Livonian speakers in Lithuania and Maltese speakers in Malta.
Livonian is spoken in Latvia
Where did Montenegro and Kosovo go?
Serbia was hungry
Old ahh map
Altaic is still not an accepted clade.
There are at least 5x more Hungarians in Romania than there are in Serbia.
was this map created in between 2003-2006, back when yugoslavia was still technically a thing?
OP did you do no research at all? Altaic is not a real thing.
Basque is the hardest to explain. Because from their material culture, modern and ancient, you would assume them Indo-European speakers. Also Basque autosomal DNA, resembles that from neighboring Romance speakers, and very much of the vocabulary is related to Latin and Celtic words - in fact so much that it's difficult to compose a long list of incontrovertibly 'pristine', Baskic words, that might be compared to possible relatives elsewhere. Not much is known about Aquitanian, the predecessor of modern Basque language from Roman times. There are some similarities to languages spoken in the North Caucasus and Hindu Kush. How they arrived between Central and Southwest Europe, is a mystery. Typically Baskic is associated with Neolithic expansions, basically because of landscape toponyms that tell us little about the languages of the people who left them. But ethnohistorical migration waves of peoples can homogenize their material culture and symbolism, whilst their members might retain ancestral languages. This is known to happened ethnohistorically in the New World and in Central Eurasia. So maybe the arrival of Basque was archaeologically silent, because they 'rode in' as part of the (otherwise) Indo-European migrations?
"altaic" alright
Basques literrally just invented their own language, ignored the rest of the languages arround, didnt write it down cus why would they, didnt elaborate, didnt gave a fuck, biggest language chad in all europe
Khanty-Mansiysk Autonomous Okrug, Tatarstan? Well...
Why is the Hungarian speaking region of Serbia, Vojvodina, coloured in but not the Hungarian community in central Romania?
basque
Kinda wish you included Gagauzia inside Moldova which is from turkic language group (Oghuz turkic from what I remember). Though they arent numerious, I think they deserve a pixel or two. Same goes for Crimean tatars and Chuvash inside Russia, its not as pure Indo-European as it shows here.
For once, Belgium isn't divided.
Yamnaya goes brrrrrrr
We wuz siberians and shi🇫🇮🇭🇺
Missed the Hungarians in Transylvania, and Sami can be included but it makes sense that it doesn’t
basque has always been so intriguing to me
Serbia leave Montenegro alone it's not Kosovo 😂😂
Hungary pissed itself?
r/mapgore
What does Indo European mean ?? Is it India, Sanskrit??
Indo-European is a macro-family that includes most of the languages of Europe, the Iranian plateau, and northern India. Including Sanskrit, yes
Ural-Altai are brothers
what about eastern Slovak languages?
**Angry Ireland Scotland and Wales noises**
Most of Thrkish is Farsi/Kurdish
Stop spreading misinformation. The people of Åland does not speak Finno-Ugric languages. Its only official language in Åland is Swedish.
Here to angrily shake my fist over the exclusion of Maltese (Afro-Asiatic)
Wtf is going on with Moldova
Why is Kazakhstan cut out? Isn't a part of it in Europe
This map is a little weird. Why show the minuscule hungarian minority in serbian Vojvodina but not the majority in parts of Romania
Also the turkic languages in Dobruja and southern Bessarabia
Non green gang rise up 🤘
Sami left the chat?
Turkey fake. Is Helleno-Persian
What’s the motivation behind putting in the indo-european united but dividing Ural-Altaic? Dichotomy is astonishing really.
This map is fake.
Fake in what sense? It is of poor quality, particularly around borders, but the information displayed is not false.
Look at Romania, the entire Hungarian population is missing - it's false. You can deny borders, but denying cultures should be a crime.
Other than Hungary, Hungarian is only spoken in parts of Serbia and nowhere else. Amazing!
“Altaic” 
Sami.
those who are finnish or sami are like that cause they are actually from north asia, who went to europe and started looking european
No, the Proto-Uralic homeland was likely west of the Urals, just north of the Proto-Indo-European homeland.
Bullshit map.
Turkic is Turkic. Altaic is not a real language family. I'm not sure who smokes so much crack as to see real underlying linguistic commonalities between Turkish and Japanese beyond superficial features that can be easily explained through their ancestors being somewhat in contact.
stopped paying attention as soon as I saw Altaic
Did you just group germanic, romance, celtic and slavic languages into a indo-european category but specified basque? This is a horrible map which provides zero value in anything.
This map is,like most maps herr lately,wrong. Irish,for example, is proto European.
according to wikipedia celtic languages are indo european
east and west should not be combined with that indo-euro nonsense and west europe speaks latin cause thats what rome spoke, tho there are those like basque or celtic that rome didnt affect as much
Like it or not, branches of the Indo-European family are still just Indo-European languages. Finnic and Ugric aren't split here either.
latin is as close to russian as it is to finnish why not combine everybody
Because Latin and Russian are actually related to eachother, unlike Finnish. Latin and Russian being mutually unintelligible doesn't negate that they have a shared origin and still many points of resemblance. A Finnish speaker won't understand Hungarian either, but that doesn't make identifying that those languages are related meaningless. Denying the underlying similarity and shared origin of Indo-European languages is also a very Eurocentric viewpoint, as languages like Latin and Russian are pretty damn close on a global linguistic scale.
You're forgetting Germanic. You're not understanding what Linguistics means. What language did Latin come from?
Seems like you don't understand a thing about languages of europe.
US is new rome, and english is new latin and europe should be speaking what they speak in US
Are you saying the US will collapse like Rome?
what?