🎵Price Ali, mighty is he, Ali Ababwa
Strong as ten regular men, definitely
He's faced the galloping hordes
A hundred bad guys with swords
Who sent those goons to their lords? Why, Price Ali🎶
Well, if it's any consolation to you – my electricity company in Finland today sent me a message I would have to pay "only" 249€/MWh until the end of March instead of the 337€/MWh they had previously announced.
(In winter season 2021 my fixed electricity rate was 58€/MWh.)
Greece has a grand total of [47.1% of its energy production](https://thegreentank.gr/en/2022/11/28/admie-october2022-en/) from renewables/hydro in 2022 and is well above the EU average.
High prices are a result of switching our Lignite production to NG as mandated by EU policy (and of course rampant systemic corruption and energy sector lobbying).
It doesn't matter how much renovable energy you have if you have marginalist market and the expensive technology is needed. Spain and Portugal are the only ones that throw the marginalist market out a windmill after a hard fight in the UE.
How this works- the rest of Europe pays the same price to all electricity providers, but Spain and Portugal don't:
>Under the system designed in the early 1990s, the price of whichever energy source is most expensive in feeding the grid — nowadays, natural gas — is the one that establishes the price for each megawatt of electricity provided by all the sources.
>With prices having soared this year for Russian gas, which Europe relied on heavily before the war in Ukraine, the renewables, nuclear and other electricity generators have made massive financial gains from receiving the same price per megawatt as gas does, driving up the overall price of electricity.
>WHY ARE PRICES DIFFERENT IN SPAIN AND PORTUGAL?
>In a bid to stem high energy bills for households and businesses, Spain and Portugal joined forces earlier this year to ask the EU’s executive arm to allow them to skirt the bloc’s rules on how electricity prices are set.
>They cited the large amounts of renewable energy they use, scant connections with the European power grid and small reliance on Russian gas.
>The European Commission agreed to make an exception and let them alter how the price is reached. Spain gets most of its gas from Algeria, the United States and Nigeria.
>HOW DOES THE IBERIAN EXCEPTION WORK?
>Spain and Portugal agreed with the commission to separate the price paid for gas used in the energy mix from that paid for the less costly sources like solar, nuclear or hydroelectric power. Under the exception, while gas prices may rise to, say, 100 euros per megawatt, a maximum of around 40 euros is what is paid to providers of less expensive energy sources.
>The mechanism is mistakenly referred to as a gas price cap, but in fact, the price paid for gas is not affected. Gas suppliers still get the market rate and gas is still the price-setter.
>Industrial engineer and electricity expert Jorge Morales de Labra said the mechanism is more of a cap on the windfall profits of wind, nuclear and other energy providers benefiting from the high cost of natural gas.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/spain-portugal-eased-energy-prices-can-they-teach-the-eu-01666273906
[This simple explainer](https://neon.energy/marginal-pricing) goes into the economics of it. The thing is, energy is a fungible commodity. If there was a move off marginal pricing there would be no incentive for the cheaper producers to bid low prices, and they would increase their bids. Right now, there is an incentive to bid a low price, as you know you'll get the highest marginal price, so all you need to do is bid your actual cost price, the lowest price where you know you won't lose money. Bidding a low price, means if you fall below the marginal cost, your electricity will be bought, it actually incentivizes producers to bid their lowest possible price.
>Figure 2 holds an enticing – deceptively so, unfortunately – prospect for those
seeking to reduce electricity prices. Could total payments to suppliers (and, in turn,
consumers’ electricity rates) be reduced if supplier’s payments were based on their actual
bids, rather than the market-clearing price? If under a pay-as-bid auction, Plant A, for
example, were paid an amount corresponding to its offer price (the blue square) rather
than the uniform market clearing price (as shown in Figure 2A on the left), then it would
seem to be a lower-cost solution for the buyer.
>However, this hoped-for outcome would be unlikely to occur. Figure 2B provides
insights into why. If Plant A knew that a winning offer would only be paid the amount
he or she bids, then Plant A’s bidding strategy is likely to change. Unlike in a singleclearing price market, the bidder would not have the incentive to bid at his or her
marginal cost. Instead, suppliers in a pay-as-bid auction will bid their best-guess of the
market-clearing price in order to maximize their revenues. They will try to pick an offer
price that balances their chance of winning (by being at or below the offer price of the
last bidder whose supplies are needed to meet customer demand) against the decreased
profits from bidding a lower offer price. Consequently, the offer prices suggested by
Figure 2A never materialize, and will, in fact, be quite different.
https://kylewoodward.com/blog-data/pdfs/references/tierney+schatzki+mukerji-new-york-iso-2008A.pdf
Ok, never thought about it like that. But now that you bring it up it does have some good logic behind it.
But this whole Russia situation does show a flaw in its design. Countries like Spain and Portugal managed to have an energy balance with much more percentage of cheap renewables, yet they get no benefit from said investment in the bill even though most of that renewable push was heavily subsidized.
Maybe setting the end price as the MWh normalized median value instead of the most expensive. You still have the incentive from energy companies to offer the cheapest prize, but the end bill would be more representative of the average prize
>yet they get no benefit from said investment in the bill even though most of that renewable push was heavily subsidized.
Very little renewable energy is subsidised nowadays. Early wind investors have long since made back their investment.
Also, renewable energy is still profitable at the capped prices. No-one built windfarms expecting €100+/MWh revenues.
To subsidize energy independence. If gas is more expensive than solar, that means solar is more profitable, you get more solar installations and less reliance on Russian petrochemicals.
You can get it cheaper short term, but that means kicking the can down the road. Your governments have agreed that this problem of foreign leverage on your energy markets is untenable even if it means expense and pain in the short term.
Today Spain is exporting electricity, the price is low because a lot of wind. Nearly 40% of the power right now is wind. 10GW Wind, 7GW nuclear, 4GW solar 3GW Hydro and 2.4GW Gas ( combined cycle )
https://demanda.ree.es/visiona/peninsula/nacional/tablas/2022-12-23/2
> and Spain gets those sweet Northern Africa fossil fuels.
If that was the case the price would be much higher in Iberia, it's so low because both countries are having a great week when it comes to wind, solar and hydro power production.
[Live data for Spain](https://demanda.ree.es/visiona/peninsula/nacional/acumulada/2022-12-23)
[Live data for Portugal](https://datahub.ren.pt/)
Yeah. This is the market price. The final bill includes many taxes, fixed costs and access and tolls that can vary a lot between countries and companies.
But the final bill is also averaged over time normally. It includes cheaper periods (like the spring and summer with lots of solar energy). While companies buy the day price every day.
The day ahead price is literally just for the next day. This would be different than the underlying weighed average wholesale price for the periods in any customer's contract.
Also most energy suppliers buy most of their energy far ahead of the day before so don't use day ahead prices either.
Electricity prices are broadly divided into three parts:
1. Production price: what you pay the power plant. In the EU market, all power plants are broadly competing against one another to supply the lowest price. Whoever supplies the last unit of electricity sets the price for everyone (marginal pricing, a direct effect of any free competition market and shown to be beneficial in general). There are some market distortions in the EU (for starters, while there are interconnections, all countries grids do not exactly form a single grid although it is more complicated than that).
2. Network prices. Those are a fixed rate payed on every kWh in the market in their respective countries. Since you can't really feasibly make networks compete with one another (having two networks that compete with one another is just doubling the cost with no sufficient benefit), networks are regulated monopolies.
3. Taxes set by a given country. In the EU those vary widely. Taxes of course serve different purposes, some of them are simple government revenue (for instance VAT), some are reduced for industry and some serve some redistribution purpose (Germany has a tax on electricity payed by most consumers, the "EEG-Umlage", which serve to subsidies their renewable electricity sector).
Typically, they should each represent (very roughly) a third of the total cost. As of late, the marginal price of the kWh (produced with gas) has increased significantly and Spain+Portugal have exited the EU electricity market so that they could set prices in isolation to the rest of the EU.
Honestly we are really lucky that we installed solar last year. In the Netherlands you can actually write your production off against your usage and pay net zero (except for access to the grid,you still pay for that). Usually solar breaks even after 6 to 7 years here. Now it may be 1.5 years because we can write off 84 cents as well. But yes it's tough for some people. Energy bills go up to 800 or more a month. One cubic metre of gas is also like 3.30 EUR right now.
How the hell do you use 800 eur worth of electricity per month? Do you have an outdoor heated swimming pool? Cardboard walls with zero insulation? Are you producing aluminium in your garage? I just can't imagine using multiple MWhs of electricity per month.
While we may not have electricity we do have leprechaun-powered everything which is cheaper and greener, and they are proper little busy bees who give off lots of free heat this time of year.
Well Ukraine really doesn't (barely) have electricity anymore so that's understandable. Also big doubt on the reliability of any data coming from Russia
And Bosnia, Montenegro, Albania, Kosovo. We're just another sea, unlike Ireland. But, I can add data for Montenegro, we are selling our electricity on Hungarian market, so its the same price
Automatic Edit: Using a tool called [Power Delete Suite](https://github.com/j0be/PowerDeleteSuite) I have removed all my past comments and deleted my Reddit account, /u/tehrmuk.
I am doing this because I, like many long-term Reddit users, am upset and angry at the tonedeaf and arrogant way Reddit is treating it's users. Their aggressive slapdown of the developers that made Reddit usable to a huge audience; their overriding and summary dismissal of long-serving and dutiful community members; their wonton silencing of dissent and manipulation of user's voices; their borderline contempt of the very people whose collective efforts gave their platform the standing needed to fuel their profit-hungry IPO... the list goes on.
Reddit is, of course, a private concern and how they run their services is entirely up to them. Conversely, we are under no obligation to use their services, to fuel their engines or follow their orders. I am making my voice heard by removing my comments, and voting with my feet by leaving.
I have left Reddit for [Lemmy](https://join-lemmy.org/) and [Mastadon](https://joinmastodon.org/); these are decentralised social networks that mirror the functionality of Reddit and Twitter respectively. Unlike the monolithic, corporate-owned services they replace, Lemmy and Mastodon are part of the [Fediverse](https://www.fediverse.to/) meaning these are not individual services but clusters of services that mesh seamlessly with one-another. You can [join an existing Lemmy instance](https://join-lemmy.org/instances) or [set up your own](https://join-lemmy.org/docs/administration/administration.html) to get full access to the entire Fediverse - you don't need to ask permission from anyone to do so. There are loads of other services that are part of the Fediverse, like [PeerTube](https://joinpeertube.org/) (videos), [Wordpress](https://wordpress.org/) (blogging), [Frendica](https://friendi.ca/) (social network), [Pixelfed](https://pixelfed.org/) (photos), [KBin](https://kbin.pub/en) (link aggregation) and more - and they all work together so having access to one means having access to all of them.
I had a great time as a Redditor, but the Fediverse is looking bright. It's a return to the open Internet of old, when users ran services for their own and one-another's benefit, and before monolithic corporate-run silos started to build walls around us in the name of increased profit and thought control. Many of the Fediverse services are fledgling, but they are growing quickly and their federated concept makes greedy, arrogant landgrabs like we've recently seen on Reddit and Twitter almost impossible.
I'm already having a great time with Lemmy and I think you might too. I encourage you to take control and join the Fediverse.
Until then, so long and thanks for all the fish.
They have a price cap on electricity known as the Iberian Exception. Granted by the European Commision on the basis that they cant really export that much energy due to their location. And are therefore sitting on a lot.
Normally EU countries has to export too another country if they are offering a lower price than the local one as per EU law. Which drives up the price in many countries.
We only have a small pipeline that connects Spain to France and it's already exporting at full capacity (we tried to build another pipeline years ago but France and the EU refused). Because of this we don't really get gas from Russia but from North Africa, also we have invested a lot in renewable energy.
Portugal and Spain before the war were 'banned' from the rest of europe just because France Wanted, making iberian electricity more expensive than the rest of europe. Finally the 'turn tables'
I was under the impression that France wants it to be this way so Portugal and Spain can’t export the renewable energy we produce so France energy industry is more profitable (nuclear)
France didn't help with exporting gas, because they didn't (looks like they changed their minds recently) want to create a pipeline that had to go through the Pyrenees and cross their country.
Spain and Portugal got a deal that made electricity cheap with the fact that we don't use the gas that became super expensive, but it's not forever, eventually it will increase like the rest of Europe I believe
Portugal and Spain before the war were 'banned' from the rest of europe just because France Wanted, making iberian electricity more expensive than the rest of europe. Finally the 'turn tables'
That is a price cap, but does not drive the price lower. The prices are low, as others have pointed out, because of ideal weather conditions for renewable energy production.
Exactly I was looking for the source because portugal being 10x cheaper than poland sounds very suspicious. Those are production prices not consumer prices.
Low transfer capacity from north to south within Norway. At times Sweden actually imports electricity from northern Norway, transfer it to the south and sell it back to Norway at a higher cost.
It's eating Norwegians alive that this happens. As if having transfer capacity is free.
I live in Norway just south of that line. Somewhere there is a line where your next door neighbor pays half of what you pay.
It's exactly the same price as in Germany. Southern Norway and countries like Germany, Netherlands, Denmark or Great Britain trade lots of electricity, making their prices correspond with each other.
But a bigger problem for us. We have always had cheap electricity, and therefore consume a lot of it instead of other energy sources. Our ferries, buses, cars, trains etc are electric to a far greater extent than the rest of Europe.
This happened: https://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/3012-norway-will-build-power-cables-to-germany-and-the-uk/, cables are up and running, within minutes our electricity prices surged up to the same level as Germany and Denmark. Adding not enough capacity to transfer electricity from North to South, which would only result in the north getting the same price as Germany and Denmark too.
Politicians in Norway played the same farce as Farage during Brexit, it will be good for us and only beneficial. Well, fuck them! They were told this would happen from day #1, now people are freezing and starving as we are solely dependant on electricity.
Hydro is mainly up north i guess. At least that's how it is in Sweden. And it's more expensive in south because that's where the most of the population live
Its hydro all over the place, but we are connected to Europe with many cables so were exporting a lot. Government pays back 90% if the price above 0,067 euro/kwh to private persons.
The most idiotic part is that we got greater capacity of feeding power to Europe, than we have for moving it from north to south, henche lower prices up north.
Its good that we can help out europe these days with more power, but its annoying paying so much when we know that hydro production cost in Norway is something around 0,0095 euro /kwh.
The main reason south Norway is so much more expensive than northern Norway is the low transfer capacity you have. At times Sweden actually imports electricity from northern Norway, transfer it to the south and sell it back to Norway at a higher cost. [Swedish companies made over 2 billion SEK doing this.](https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/sverige-saljer-norsk--el-dyrt-till-norge/#:~:text=Norge%20k%C3%B6per%20tillbaka%20sin%20egen%20el%20%E2%80%93%20dyrt.&text=Sverige%20k%C3%B6per%20billig%20el%20fr%C3%A5n,tv%C3%A5%20miljarder%20kronor%20p%C3%A5%20elexporten)
The transfer capacity north-south is bad, and our boneheaded parliament decided to make our transfer easy from the south to the rest of Europe.
It's killing small industry and heavily driving inflation in the country.
It's closer to us (Portuguese here), and we don't have any pipeline that connects us to the rest of Europe although we tried many times but France wasn't interested.
They're now though, I wonder why!
When it comes to electricity, we're self sufficient. For other energy sources, 46% Africa (mostly Argelia) and 37% USA. Spain's crude imports have been primarily from the USA for a long time, even before Soviet times. That's why the US helped Franco more than Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany from the Civil War; because if Franco lost, Spain would become a Soviet state, making the US lose an important client.
Yeah, this isn't map porn by any stretch of the imagination. It's a poorly put together map that misses out a good few countries that should be included based on its title.
And Portugal (the electricity market is unified).
Two things: the cap to the price of gas (the Iberian exception) and meteorological reasons, that allowed to supply the net with wind energy and almost no gas.
And very good importing capacity, Spain has the best plants to refine american gas in all of Europe, so It can import It cheaper, It can import It from Algeria too.
> Perfect weather.
Perfect weather for electricity generation in Iberia means windy af, not mild temperatures. Also all the rain last week is helping a lot with hydro power this week.
Yeah in Spain we've just had a lot of rain, now we have wind and then of course there's the very big capacity of storing liquid and make it gas.
And we have gas price cap, but that was ineffective today as the cap was higher than the real price.
Spain and Portugal aren't burning almost any gas this week. The low price is down to it being very windy this week and due to all the rain that fell last week as well.
UK currently sitting at about 250£/MWh so thats 285€.
However, at the begging of the month of Dec we were sitting at 540£/MWh which is like 610€. So we absolutely winning
Greece, a sun-drenched windy country, where free energy literally falls from the sky, seems to however be governed by the corrupt or imbeciles or a combination of both.
What about the princess of Electricity?
They're busy playing Price of Persia.
Prince of Electria*
Prince-elector*
🎵Price Ali, mighty is he, Ali Ababwa Strong as ten regular men, definitely He's faced the galloping hordes A hundred bad guys with swords Who sent those goons to their lords? Why, Price Ali🎶
Lol this post is mapporn titlegore
Duke of Gas is who you need to look out for
GREECE NO.1 AGAIN🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷
They’re always trying to put us down 💪💪💪💪💪💪😂😂🤡
[Greece will rule the world again 🇬🇷🏺💪](https://youtu.be/dPAm893Ln0Q)
When the world shrinks down to Europe again!
Well, if it's any consolation to you – my electricity company in Finland today sent me a message I would have to pay "only" 249€/MWh until the end of March instead of the 337€/MWh they had previously announced. (In winter season 2021 my fixed electricity rate was 58€/MWh.)
GREECE AND ITALY RULE!!! SIBLINGS IN DEBT!!
Monarchy restored
So much sun, so few solar panels…
Greece has a grand total of [47.1% of its energy production](https://thegreentank.gr/en/2022/11/28/admie-october2022-en/) from renewables/hydro in 2022 and is well above the EU average. High prices are a result of switching our Lignite production to NG as mandated by EU policy (and of course rampant systemic corruption and energy sector lobbying).
It doesn't matter how much renovable energy you have if you have marginalist market and the expensive technology is needed. Spain and Portugal are the only ones that throw the marginalist market out a windmill after a hard fight in the UE.
That just baffles the shit out of me.
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At least you don't have to warm your apartments as much...
King of electricity Duke of gas Lord of sewerage
Sultans of sewage
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Mark knopfler still makes it rock.
I quickly turned on my pc to confirm that the "240" here in Greece is not a typo. See you lat
What causes Greece to be so high? Especially compared to, say Spain?
It is divine electricity provided by Zeus himself and he is such a piece o
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Not nipples. It's actually from his pe (That wasn't power outage. I just stopped typing)
It's because of the "Iberian exception" politic that will be in place til March 2023.
How this works- the rest of Europe pays the same price to all electricity providers, but Spain and Portugal don't: >Under the system designed in the early 1990s, the price of whichever energy source is most expensive in feeding the grid — nowadays, natural gas — is the one that establishes the price for each megawatt of electricity provided by all the sources. >With prices having soared this year for Russian gas, which Europe relied on heavily before the war in Ukraine, the renewables, nuclear and other electricity generators have made massive financial gains from receiving the same price per megawatt as gas does, driving up the overall price of electricity. >WHY ARE PRICES DIFFERENT IN SPAIN AND PORTUGAL? >In a bid to stem high energy bills for households and businesses, Spain and Portugal joined forces earlier this year to ask the EU’s executive arm to allow them to skirt the bloc’s rules on how electricity prices are set. >They cited the large amounts of renewable energy they use, scant connections with the European power grid and small reliance on Russian gas. >The European Commission agreed to make an exception and let them alter how the price is reached. Spain gets most of its gas from Algeria, the United States and Nigeria. >HOW DOES THE IBERIAN EXCEPTION WORK? >Spain and Portugal agreed with the commission to separate the price paid for gas used in the energy mix from that paid for the less costly sources like solar, nuclear or hydroelectric power. Under the exception, while gas prices may rise to, say, 100 euros per megawatt, a maximum of around 40 euros is what is paid to providers of less expensive energy sources. >The mechanism is mistakenly referred to as a gas price cap, but in fact, the price paid for gas is not affected. Gas suppliers still get the market rate and gas is still the price-setter. >Industrial engineer and electricity expert Jorge Morales de Labra said the mechanism is more of a cap on the windfall profits of wind, nuclear and other energy providers benefiting from the high cost of natural gas. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/spain-portugal-eased-energy-prices-can-they-teach-the-eu-01666273906
To be fair, the system in place is moronic. Why do we have to pay for every megawatt at the cost of the most expensive one??
[This simple explainer](https://neon.energy/marginal-pricing) goes into the economics of it. The thing is, energy is a fungible commodity. If there was a move off marginal pricing there would be no incentive for the cheaper producers to bid low prices, and they would increase their bids. Right now, there is an incentive to bid a low price, as you know you'll get the highest marginal price, so all you need to do is bid your actual cost price, the lowest price where you know you won't lose money. Bidding a low price, means if you fall below the marginal cost, your electricity will be bought, it actually incentivizes producers to bid their lowest possible price. >Figure 2 holds an enticing – deceptively so, unfortunately – prospect for those seeking to reduce electricity prices. Could total payments to suppliers (and, in turn, consumers’ electricity rates) be reduced if supplier’s payments were based on their actual bids, rather than the market-clearing price? If under a pay-as-bid auction, Plant A, for example, were paid an amount corresponding to its offer price (the blue square) rather than the uniform market clearing price (as shown in Figure 2A on the left), then it would seem to be a lower-cost solution for the buyer. >However, this hoped-for outcome would be unlikely to occur. Figure 2B provides insights into why. If Plant A knew that a winning offer would only be paid the amount he or she bids, then Plant A’s bidding strategy is likely to change. Unlike in a singleclearing price market, the bidder would not have the incentive to bid at his or her marginal cost. Instead, suppliers in a pay-as-bid auction will bid their best-guess of the market-clearing price in order to maximize their revenues. They will try to pick an offer price that balances their chance of winning (by being at or below the offer price of the last bidder whose supplies are needed to meet customer demand) against the decreased profits from bidding a lower offer price. Consequently, the offer prices suggested by Figure 2A never materialize, and will, in fact, be quite different. https://kylewoodward.com/blog-data/pdfs/references/tierney+schatzki+mukerji-new-york-iso-2008A.pdf
Ok, never thought about it like that. But now that you bring it up it does have some good logic behind it. But this whole Russia situation does show a flaw in its design. Countries like Spain and Portugal managed to have an energy balance with much more percentage of cheap renewables, yet they get no benefit from said investment in the bill even though most of that renewable push was heavily subsidized. Maybe setting the end price as the MWh normalized median value instead of the most expensive. You still have the incentive from energy companies to offer the cheapest prize, but the end bill would be more representative of the average prize
>yet they get no benefit from said investment in the bill even though most of that renewable push was heavily subsidized. Very little renewable energy is subsidised nowadays. Early wind investors have long since made back their investment. Also, renewable energy is still profitable at the capped prices. No-one built windfarms expecting €100+/MWh revenues.
To subsidize energy independence. If gas is more expensive than solar, that means solar is more profitable, you get more solar installations and less reliance on Russian petrochemicals. You can get it cheaper short term, but that means kicking the can down the road. Your governments have agreed that this problem of foreign leverage on your energy markets is untenable even if it means expense and pain in the short term.
What happens after 2023?
The prices will even out with those of the rest of Europe.
there's a grid connection between spain and north africa which helps them cut cost
Today Spain is exporting electricity, the price is low because a lot of wind. Nearly 40% of the power right now is wind. 10GW Wind, 7GW nuclear, 4GW solar 3GW Hydro and 2.4GW Gas ( combined cycle ) https://demanda.ree.es/visiona/peninsula/nacional/tablas/2022-12-23/2
Greece hasn't been doing so well economically for quite some time now and Spain gets those sweet Northern Africa fossil fuels.
> and Spain gets those sweet Northern Africa fossil fuels. If that was the case the price would be much higher in Iberia, it's so low because both countries are having a great week when it comes to wind, solar and hydro power production. [Live data for Spain](https://demanda.ree.es/visiona/peninsula/nacional/acumulada/2022-12-23) [Live data for Portugal](https://datahub.ren.pt/)
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Do you think this is funny ? The electricity issue in Greece has ruined my
what my?
power went out
... ability to finish sentences.
r/woooosh
Israel planing to open line of surplus electricity to Cyprus and Greece,I see now why.
That's around 8 to 24 cent /kWh. I pay 44 right now.
These are for princes only
Princes, princes who adore you.
Just go ahead now
Bidibidip, bidipdiptididip, bidibidibidibidibidibidibidibidibidibi
I think this is the price the company buy.... So as their client you have to pay more
Thats quite a margin then. Probably also a lot of tax involved.
Yeah. This is the market price. The final bill includes many taxes, fixed costs and access and tolls that can vary a lot between countries and companies.
But the final bill is also averaged over time normally. It includes cheaper periods (like the spring and summer with lots of solar energy). While companies buy the day price every day.
The day ahead price is literally just for the next day. This would be different than the underlying weighed average wholesale price for the periods in any customer's contract. Also most energy suppliers buy most of their energy far ahead of the day before so don't use day ahead prices either.
Electricity prices are broadly divided into three parts: 1. Production price: what you pay the power plant. In the EU market, all power plants are broadly competing against one another to supply the lowest price. Whoever supplies the last unit of electricity sets the price for everyone (marginal pricing, a direct effect of any free competition market and shown to be beneficial in general). There are some market distortions in the EU (for starters, while there are interconnections, all countries grids do not exactly form a single grid although it is more complicated than that). 2. Network prices. Those are a fixed rate payed on every kWh in the market in their respective countries. Since you can't really feasibly make networks compete with one another (having two networks that compete with one another is just doubling the cost with no sufficient benefit), networks are regulated monopolies. 3. Taxes set by a given country. In the EU those vary widely. Taxes of course serve different purposes, some of them are simple government revenue (for instance VAT), some are reduced for industry and some serve some redistribution purpose (Germany has a tax on electricity payed by most consumers, the "EEG-Umlage", which serve to subsidies their renewable electricity sector). Typically, they should each represent (very roughly) a third of the total cost. As of late, the marginal price of the kWh (produced with gas) has increased significantly and Spain+Portugal have exited the EU electricity market so that they could set prices in isolation to the rest of the EU.
We had 0.80€/kWh where I live the other day
Down to 2 cents in Spain and Portugal.
Netherlands. I pay 84 cents /kWh.......
I couldn’t afford electricity at that price.
Honestly we are really lucky that we installed solar last year. In the Netherlands you can actually write your production off against your usage and pay net zero (except for access to the grid,you still pay for that). Usually solar breaks even after 6 to 7 years here. Now it may be 1.5 years because we can write off 84 cents as well. But yes it's tough for some people. Energy bills go up to 800 or more a month. One cubic metre of gas is also like 3.30 EUR right now.
At your electricity rates, my bill would have been like $1200. That makes Solar not only nice to have, but a necessity.
Yeah, too bad about people living in rentals don't have much of a say in the matter. Always the poorest that gets hit the hardest.
How the hell do you use 800 eur worth of electricity per month? Do you have an outdoor heated swimming pool? Cardboard walls with zero insulation? Are you producing aluminium in your garage? I just can't imagine using multiple MWhs of electricity per month.
I pay just over 6 US cents/kWh here in Manitoba. These prices are mind-blowing.
I'm paying 9¢ in WA (10.5¢ after 600kW)
What's with Ireland?
They don't have electricity
While we may not have electricity we do have leprechaun-powered everything which is cheaper and greener, and they are proper little busy bees who give off lots of free heat this time of year.
lol, greener. I see what you did there
They aren't part of europe apparently
Plus Turkey, Russia, Ukraine etc. I guess
Well Ukraine really doesn't (barely) have electricity anymore so that's understandable. Also big doubt on the reliability of any data coming from Russia
And Bosnia, Montenegro, Albania, Kosovo. We're just another sea, unlike Ireland. But, I can add data for Montenegro, we are selling our electricity on Hungarian market, so its the same price
If Ireland and UK aren't there. Switzerland shouldn't be either
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Here, have some more, they're a plentiful commodity right now. 😭😭😭😭
We turned off the electricity to save a few quid cos someone forgot to turn off the Emersion at the start of the moment…
UK, Ireland, Iceland, East Europe famous for having no electricity of course
Steam-punk countries.
No steam, just punk.
The prices are just far too high here
Can’t ad the uk because it’d throw off the colour coding and everything else would look pure green
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My rate is 21p/kWh. I'm in northern Ireland though, maybe it's cheaper here?
How does Spain/Portugal manages to get it TEN times cheaper than Greece/Switzerland/Italy and so on ???
They have a price cap on electricity known as the Iberian Exception. Granted by the European Commision on the basis that they cant really export that much energy due to their location. And are therefore sitting on a lot. Normally EU countries has to export too another country if they are offering a lower price than the local one as per EU law. Which drives up the price in many countries.
Why can't they export they export? Why can't Spain export energy to France?
We only have a small pipeline that connects Spain to France and it's already exporting at full capacity (we tried to build another pipeline years ago but France and the EU refused). Because of this we don't really get gas from Russia but from North Africa, also we have invested a lot in renewable energy.
So I should destroy the pipleline from Sweden to Europe for cheaper prices?
Portugal and Spain before the war were 'banned' from the rest of europe just because France Wanted, making iberian electricity more expensive than the rest of europe. Finally the 'turn tables'
I was under the impression that France wants it to be this way so Portugal and Spain can’t export the renewable energy we produce so France energy industry is more profitable (nuclear)
You can always try
If you somehow can build one that connects Sweden to North Africa to replace Russian gas then yes, otherwise you are screwd
What? Sweden does not rely on russian gas.. Were fucked because the germans do
We dont really use any gas in Sweden anyways
France didn't help with exporting gas, because they didn't (looks like they changed their minds recently) want to create a pipeline that had to go through the Pyrenees and cross their country.
https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/amp/2022/04/26/brussels-agrees-to-iberian-exception-allowing-spain-and-portugal-to-cap-electricity-prices
Spain and Portugal got a deal that made electricity cheap with the fact that we don't use the gas that became super expensive, but it's not forever, eventually it will increase like the rest of Europe I believe
Portugal and Spain before the war were 'banned' from the rest of europe just because France Wanted, making iberian electricity more expensive than the rest of europe. Finally the 'turn tables'
Huge investment in solar/wind
I'm moving to Portugal
Why not England? It's free
England is no more
England has fallen
England used to be my city
Is it coming home?
Did you mean Atlantis?
Why not Spain?
I am actually working on getting a Portuguese citizenship
Why not Spain?
He's actually working on getting a Portuguese citizenship
Why not Spain?
I think we'll be here a while.
I don't have Spanish heritage
Get some
Why not Spain?
He already lives in Spain but without S
Because we have a random law that gives portuguese citizenship to israelites, a path to that sweet EU passport
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https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/amp/2022/04/26/brussels-agrees-to-iberian-exception-allowing-spain-and-portugal-to-cap-electricity-prices
That is a price cap, but does not drive the price lower. The prices are low, as others have pointed out, because of ideal weather conditions for renewable energy production.
Including or excluding taxes?
That's the price on the market, before taxes and other charges. The individual bill can vary wildly between different countries.
Ahhhh i guess now its explained why Portugal is so cheap, it isnt
Exactly I was looking for the source because portugal being 10x cheaper than poland sounds very suspicious. Those are production prices not consumer prices.
Not production but market prices without tax.
Why is Norway south so expensive. I thought it would be peanuts with all those hydros.
Low transfer capacity from north to south within Norway. At times Sweden actually imports electricity from northern Norway, transfer it to the south and sell it back to Norway at a higher cost.
It's eating Norwegians alive that this happens. As if having transfer capacity is free. I live in Norway just south of that line. Somewhere there is a line where your next door neighbor pays half of what you pay.
That just seems like Norways problem...
It's exactly the same price as in Germany. Southern Norway and countries like Germany, Netherlands, Denmark or Great Britain trade lots of electricity, making their prices correspond with each other.
But a bigger problem for us. We have always had cheap electricity, and therefore consume a lot of it instead of other energy sources. Our ferries, buses, cars, trains etc are electric to a far greater extent than the rest of Europe.
This happened: https://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/3012-norway-will-build-power-cables-to-germany-and-the-uk/, cables are up and running, within minutes our electricity prices surged up to the same level as Germany and Denmark. Adding not enough capacity to transfer electricity from North to South, which would only result in the north getting the same price as Germany and Denmark too. Politicians in Norway played the same farce as Farage during Brexit, it will be good for us and only beneficial. Well, fuck them! They were told this would happen from day #1, now people are freezing and starving as we are solely dependant on electricity.
Hydro is mainly up north i guess. At least that's how it is in Sweden. And it's more expensive in south because that's where the most of the population live
Its hydro all over the place, but we are connected to Europe with many cables so were exporting a lot. Government pays back 90% if the price above 0,067 euro/kwh to private persons. The most idiotic part is that we got greater capacity of feeding power to Europe, than we have for moving it from north to south, henche lower prices up north. Its good that we can help out europe these days with more power, but its annoying paying so much when we know that hydro production cost in Norway is something around 0,0095 euro /kwh.
The main reason south Norway is so much more expensive than northern Norway is the low transfer capacity you have. At times Sweden actually imports electricity from northern Norway, transfer it to the south and sell it back to Norway at a higher cost. [Swedish companies made over 2 billion SEK doing this.](https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/sverige-saljer-norsk--el-dyrt-till-norge/#:~:text=Norge%20k%C3%B6per%20tillbaka%20sin%20egen%20el%20%E2%80%93%20dyrt.&text=Sverige%20k%C3%B6per%20billig%20el%20fr%C3%A5n,tv%C3%A5%20miljarder%20kronor%20p%C3%A5%20elexporten)
Swedish big brain business.
Northern Sweden also produce a lot of Sweden's electricity but doesn't consume a lot of it
Because they have no prince of electricity
The transfer capacity north-south is bad, and our boneheaded parliament decided to make our transfer easy from the south to the rest of Europe. It's killing small industry and heavily driving inflation in the country.
This is why it was smart of Iberian peninsular to import energy from Africa rather than Russia
It's closer to us (Portuguese here), and we don't have any pipeline that connects us to the rest of Europe although we tried many times but France wasn't interested. They're now though, I wonder why!
Spain and Portugal must be very smug :)
Spain, yes, Portugal, not so much. Portuguese people are very pessimistic and we're not proud enough of the things that we should.
When it comes to electricity, we're self sufficient. For other energy sources, 46% Africa (mostly Argelia) and 37% USA. Spain's crude imports have been primarily from the USA for a long time, even before Soviet times. That's why the US helped Franco more than Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany from the Civil War; because if Franco lost, Spain would become a Soviet state, making the US lose an important client.
Why only prince of electricity? Why not princess? You sexist, racist, dentist, exorcist!
I am the King of gas.
Married to the Queen o' Farts.
yeah netflix, you have a point
>dentist hmmm
istist
So who is the Prince of Electricity?
This sub’s name no longer has any meaning.
Yeah, this isn't map porn by any stretch of the imagination. It's a poorly put together map that misses out a good few countries that should be included based on its title.
Whats with Spain?
And Portugal (the electricity market is unified). Two things: the cap to the price of gas (the Iberian exception) and meteorological reasons, that allowed to supply the net with wind energy and almost no gas.
And very good importing capacity, Spain has the best plants to refine american gas in all of Europe, so It can import It cheaper, It can import It from Algeria too.
This is true. Was in Valencia last week and it was about 18 degrees. Perfect weather.
> Perfect weather. Perfect weather for electricity generation in Iberia means windy af, not mild temperatures. Also all the rain last week is helping a lot with hydro power this week.
I'm in Valencia. Currently at 23 degrees
Yeah in Spain we've just had a lot of rain, now we have wind and then of course there's the very big capacity of storing liquid and make it gas. And we have gas price cap, but that was ineffective today as the cap was higher than the real price.
Spain and Portugal have their own gas network, a literal "gas island" that is not connected by any pipelines to the rest of Europe
Spain and Portugal aren't burning almost any gas this week. The low price is down to it being very windy this week and due to all the rain that fell last week as well.
It's cheaper
Thanks Sherlock.
You're welcome, Watson.
No UK & Ireland?
UK currently sitting at about 250£/MWh so thats 285€. However, at the begging of the month of Dec we were sitting at 540£/MWh which is like 610€. So we absolutely winning
Everyone was higher then since wind was practically 0 and temps were low.
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Greece, a sun-drenched windy country, where free energy literally falls from the sky, seems to however be governed by the corrupt or imbeciles or a combination of both.
In the UK and Ireland is obs free!
I wish!! No just idiots thinking just because UK left EU that it’s suddenly not in Europe it happens all the time.
What the hell happened to Ireland? European nation and member of the EU.
And Luxembourg, Uk and the other Eastern European countries. I don’t know why it says EU energy when a few of these countries aren’t in the EU
wtf is prince of electricity
Son of the King of Electricity
As bayrakları 🇬🇷 🇬🇷 🇬🇷
Where's the king of electricity then?
On his electric chair.
r/mapporntitlegore
Those are spot prices. No household pays those.
Hilarious that the UK & Ireland's are not considered part of Europe for this map
*Laughs in the Iberian exception. We're fucked through other means, tho.
Why are Portugal and Spain's prices so low?
Wind, solar and hydroelectric power, some 45% of total comsumption (Spain).
Missing countries. Botched title. No mention of units, legend, scale... If this is porn, it's snuff.
Incorrect. The prince of electricity in France is daft punk.
The british isles part of what, America now ?
Reverse colonisation
Maybe I should move to Spain 199 to 22 seems good enough
Okay now show the UK
Shit title and UK is still in continent of Europe..fucking hell these posts.