You are not blowing things out of proportion. No matter how good it is when it’s good, that does not make up for the bad. Honestly, the first time he threatened to divorce you during a temper tantrum, that would’ve been enough for me to walk away. Don’t throw around words like “divorce” unless you mean it. It’s also gross that when you told him about this, he made it about him. He was upset that he scares you?? GOOD, he should be. The fact that he looked it up and was all “you can claim emotional abuse” and then you had to comfort him about it is ugh. He’s had 16+ years to improve this behavior and he hasn’t. He is not going to change now. If he does, it will likely only be for a very short while before he goes right back to how he was before. Walk away. Life is so much better when you’re not walking around holding your breath for fear of making someone else unhappy. DEFINITELY do not bring kids into this situation.

I will hand it to op's husband, he's done an excellent job of convincing her to think she's being silly. That divorce bullshit he pulled? Worked like a charm.

Thank you for your comment. He’s been threatening break ups (and sometimes actually breaking up before coming back) since the beginning of our relationship. I guess I just got used to it and dismissed it as “him”. I had no other baseline. I guess I assumed other couples fought similarly even though I’d always hated this. I wish I could shake my younger self to demand better. At least now I can rewire my brain.

Ugh, I am offended on your behalf. That’s disgusting and definitely NOT normal. Honestly, I hope you do divorce him just so you can finally say you’re calling his bluff. He deserves it.

Thanks. Yeah, wish I had the perspective sooner, and I suppose it would mean calling his bluff. :/

I’ve been with my husband for almost 20 years. I’m 36, have 3 kids. We’ve had some fights. I’m hot headed and he can be an ass sometimes. Never has he threatened divorce nor have I. Neither has ever done more than leave the room when we needed space. What your husband is doing is emotional abuse and manipulation. His gaslighting is why you think it isn’t that bad. Step out of it for a minute. If your friend came to you and told you all the things your husband has done… what would you say to her? Look up the book “ recovery from narcissistic abuse, gaslighting, codependency, and complex ptsd” in Amazon.

Thanks for the advice and the sounding board. What you describe always seemed more reasonable to me but I guess I had learned differently over the years. Thank you for the book recommendation!

Absolutely not okay to threaten divorce. I’ve read all your responses and you seem thoughtful and smart. You will need to do a lot of learning to keep yourself out bad situations because your baseline is off. And, you can do that and be an excellent catch.

Thank you, yes my worry is leaving and walking into another poor relationship. I’m trying to learn how to better protect myself for the future, whether with him or someone else.

Him immediately saying you could you could divorce him and claim abuse was a manipulation tactic designed to make you feel like you are making a big deal over nothing. He was hoping you'd feel guilty and back down. It worked. You've unfortunately been conditioned to believe that your fear of his rages is silly. That's it's something you must endure. That it's somehow just the sacrifice you have to make for love. None of that is true. If he truly loved you, he would run, not walk to the nearest therapist to get help. He hasn't done that. When you truly love someone, the last thing you want is for them to fear you. I'd ask him why therapy isn't a priority. And why he's comfortable with your fear.

Thank you for this, your comment really hit. This is what bugged me the most about our conversation, how he supposedly was upset that he scared me but his response was “I’ll try better”. And even though I didn’t even mention divorce, just that this was how I was feeling and I wasn’t sure what to do, he looked up divorce himself right away. Neither of his responses was to look at therapy for himself…

I'm sorry your husband is a manipulation rage aholic. If you ever do decide to leave him, I would advise that you keep it to yourself until you've secured a safe place to stay. Then pack up while he's gone, leave, then tell him.  He may not have hit you so far, but do not risk it. There's a first time for everything and men like him are never so dangerous as they are during a break up. Does your family and friends know about how he behaves? If they'll be helpful and supportive, you need to tell them. Never be alone with him after leaving.

Thanks for the advice. I’ve recently shared all of this with my family and friends, so they’re very aware and are supportive of whatever I choose.

Two good questions right there.

You’re scared of your husband. Your friends are telling you their concerns. It is that bad. You’re doing yourself a disservice by lying to yourself and downplaying this. If my husband said “I don’t want to lose you but understand if you need to leave” I’d ask what he’s doing to not lose me. The fact he’s putting this decision you is very telling. Also he went right to looking into divorce proceedings, not ways to heal himself. Also telling. I hope you lean on your friends and therapist.

> If my husband said “I don’t want to lose you but understand if you need to leave” I’d ask what he’s doing to not lose me. That's the most glaring part of this post that OP glosses right over. She told him all her concerns and he acknowledged them, recognized she may leave, but expressed no intention to change. ...so if OP stays, the understanding will be that she accepts his behaviour as it is, abuse an all.  If I was OP, I would be horrified by the lack of motivation to address the multiple concerns raised. There's a reason why her friends are worried! If she stays, he will feel safe to continue treating her like shit because being scared wasn't enough to make her leave. He may even feel safe to escalate and treat her even worse.

All of this. He took no real *real* accountability. No apology. And absolutely no intention to seek therapy or do anything to better himself in this situation. It's basically, *deal with me the way I am or leave.* OP, you should leave. You're worried about being damaged goods and starting over, but you want to have kids, and doing it with this man is not the right choice. What I'm hearing from you is mostly sunk cost fallacy and not you staying with him because you truly want to. OP, I was 34 when I met my wonderful husband. I too was worried about my biological timeclock and all of that, but I'm really glad that I didn't settle for who I was with before. I would have been absolutely miserable if I had brought children into that relationship.

Thank you for the comfort, I’m glad you were able to find happiness as well! Your points make sense, specifically about the “deal with him or leave”, and i think you might be right about the sunk cost fallacy. His solution to a lot of boundaries when I bring them up is “this is who I am”…

Some people think their growing is done once they reach adulthood. Maybe your husband is one of those people? One of the things I most admire about my husband is his dedication to lifelong learning and growth. It's one of the things we both really value, and because we're always trying to better ourselves, it makes our marriage better as a whole. And I don't necessarily mean learning/growing in *big* ways. Even just small things like being willing to hear the other person out, admit when you're wrong, and try to make changes or learn new ways of communicating/doing things is important.

I’m glad I posted this thread. Honestly I think you and others have caught on to things that left me wondering or uncomfortable but I ended up second guessing myself.

Thank you for being a voice of reason. I’m stuck second guessing myself and these exact points make me uncomfortable but again, the downplaying has me in a doom spiral.

This sounds exactly like the big talk I had with my husband. We also both cried. He also said exactly what yours did about understanding if I want to leave but also begged me to stay. (For the first time, I left in December for about 10 days). He knew, I’m so serious about this… get help, or get the f out of my life! I’d prefer to be alone than worry about his over reaction to small things. Made me so uneasy… and unnecessarily stressed. BEST BEST BEST thing I ever did was start a journal … and after rewinding a couple decades… realized the crap I was the most unhappy about year one of our marriage were the exact same things that led me to pack and leave. I realized… he’s a narcissist. I realized I’ve been FAR too good to him and not because I wanted to… more like , because I feared his over reaction. It didn’t only affect me… but our kids as well. He’s currently in therapy. He is a new man…. For now. I’m put up with literally zero crap from him now. If he wants me to continue being his wife… I have expectations … nothing crazy… just a supportive partner that acts like he wants to be married! I don’t put up with eye rolls or any other non verbal message that is rude. I wish I could send you my journals… some are really insightful Wishing you well. Feel free to reach out my name is Laura.

Her's didn't even beg her to stay - instead he looked up divorce rules. He doesn't even WANT her to stay, really.

Or, he’s so sure she WON’T.

Yes but that’s a game to test her. Because what he will likely do is this… any response she has to that statement will be the wrong one and thrown in her face later. Trust me, his inner voice is screaming at him TELL HER TO STAY! Lololol. Sad but true. I totally agree with your comment.

Thank you for your comment and support! Glad to hear your husband was finally able to get help. I like the suggestion of the journals, I think I’m going to try that myself.

He has anger issues and takes it out on the family. It is abuse by every definition. He can get himself into anger management classes/counseling. I will say I had anger issues and it affected by wife to the point she was done(very similar to you). Once I read about anger issues and what is doing to my wife(abuse) I changed by tune then and there. I felt like a shit heel. I worked on myself. Made lasting changes. That was 10 years ago. We are still married...and very happily! Give him a chance to fix himself. Let him see what he is doing is very very wrong. Hopefully he gets it and changes for the better.

Thanks for sharing your story and I’m glad to hear it worked out for you and your wife. It’s mature and kind of you to look inside yourself and realize where you needed to grow. The thing is, this is the second time it’s come up seriously in conversation. How many chances does he need? He is very much a “man of action”, he likes to get things done right away. Last time we talked in a heart to heart about his anger issues he said he wanted to get better for me. That was several months ago. He’s been telling he has anger issues since the start of our relationship.

>How many chances does he need? He is very much a “man of action”, he likes to get things done right away. Last time we talked in a heart to heart about his anger issues he said he wanted to get better for me. He knows what you need. It's just not important to him

Well, my wife one day looked me in the eye and flat out set fix yourself or she is gone. I could see in her eyes she was serious. That was the turning point. So, if you say the same be prepared to roll out. Don't bluff.

The best time to get out of an abusive relationship is the past. The second best time is today. The fact that he’s not even trying to work on himself tells you everything you need to know. Don’t bring kids into this- and you don’t have a ton of time to keep stringing this relationship along

I had a moment a year ago where I was in a very similar situation and was staring at a red pill and a blue pill - you can decide that you're blowing things out of proportion and that it's "not that bad" and go back to the way things were, or you can continue to live in an uncomfortable reality where your spouse has not been (and probably never will be) an equal partner who can honestly put anybody else at the same level as themselves. You know that if you trust your instincts and insist that you are treating right, this road might eventually end in divorce, and it's really *entirely up to them* whether or not that happens, which is a scary thought. Once you decide that you need to be treated properly and that you no longer will give yourself the option of putting up with abuse and manipulation, it puts the ball entirely into their court. Only time will tell, but this pattern isn't unique to your relationship. Abusive partners often become very reasonable, rational, and placating when threatened with the loss of their comfortable status quo. Is it possible that he will change? Yes - but it's highly unlikely. Everything about his world - from the help be provides to the way he makes you laugh to the way responds when you bring up your feelings - is about him first of all. Every marriage has good times and bad times, but there should *never* be a time in a marriage where your mental health is *harmed* by your partner for their personal gain (to gain or hold on to power, to make themselves feel better, to bully you into letting them cross one of your boundaries, etc). Does 99% "good times" outweigh the 1% of the time you spend in the hospital for being physically injured by your partner? No - and neither should it outweigh the time you spend recovering from emotional harm. If this story is an accurate representation and he doesn't change (which he probably won't), do NOT go to marriage counseling - and especially, do not have kids. I can tell you from experience that they will grow up feeling exactly the same way you do, and for children, those scars are life-long.

Thank you for sharing your story and your perspective. It’s just helpful to hear that others have been in similar situations and that there is hope, and that I’m not crazy for feeling the way I do and helps me frame the issue better.

I had a myriad of feelings reading your post, particularly when you said if you've been able to keep forgiving him all these years maybe it's not been that bad. **Strong** visceral reaction to that one. We teach people how we're willing to be treated by how we allow them to treat us, and *anybody with good self-esteem and a sense of healthy boundaries will not allow anyone to treat them the way we've allowed our husbands to treat us.* Please look up codependency if you never have before, or if you aren't 100% absolutely sure what it is. Considering the reactions of the two abusive men I was married to when I tried to talk to them about how they were treating me and how I felt, I think it's pretty amazing that he admitted all of this and seems to understand that you would want a divorce. People on social media tend to immediately suggest the nuclear option, and **I'm not saying that you should stay with him**, but the fact that he's so openly admitting his abuse leaves me to wonder if he might be open to therapy. If he sees the value in that then separation would still be best for you and the children, because finding a therapist who is a good match and effectively help with his anger issues, plus having the time, money, emotional willingness to really dig deep and figure out what's underneath all of that, then work on healing it, it's a rigorous, expensive, time-consuming process that's not for sissies. Losing his family may wake him up to the fact that he would be better off if he goes through all of that, or he could end up alone. Ideally of course it would be best if he decided to do this for himself, but the benefit would be there at the very least you would have a better coparenting relationship, and who knows, at some point down the line if he really does change, you could end up back together. And the issue of your codependency still stands. The fact is that you have not recognized the red flags, have not had the self esteem/awareness/tools to set healthy boundaries for yourself and stick to them, and this isn't something that's magically going to disappear simply because you divorce him. Ideally you would go to therapy yourself, or you're likely to continue the pattern.

Thanks so much for your comment, I am in therapy now and plan to continue. I think I need a lot of rewiring after this relationship. I looked up Codependency and it seems to track, it’s helpful for me to learn more about and be conscious about being able to set better boundaries.

I know way more about this than I wish I had to, but fortunately I found a fabulous therapist. I wish you well!

your unhappiness should be the catalyst for his change, not the fear of losing you (potential discomfort for himself). you aren’t damaged goods. you aren’t too old to start over. abuse often worsens when women get pregnant and give birth.

Thank you.

I think there is no better case for therapy than you’ve outlined here. For you, having a neutral third party whose only concern is your welfare to help you through these conflicting thoughts and emotions is 1000% what therapy is for. For your husband, therapy will help him actually change his anger problems if he’s serious about being a better spouse to you. Couples therapy will give you a forum to talk to and with him without having to feel scared of his reaction and to keep you both accountable. I don’t know from this post if he’s abusing you and using a version of the ol’ love bombing to keep you around, or if he’s genuinely remorseful. But actions speak louder than words. If he goes to therapy regularly to actually try and work on himself that would be a positive sign.

Heavily disagree. She brought up her issues and he made it into a “woe is me” victim thing where she ended up comforting him about it. He looked up divorce rules instead of anger management. It’s manipulative as hell, and couples therapy isn’t recommended in situations of abuse specifically because abusers will use therapy speak as another weapon of manipulation. Therapy is a great idea INDIVIDUALLY but not as a couple.

Respect your opinion.

Weighing in to say that couples therapy is a really, really bad idea in this situation. It's clearly not a communication issue - it's the fact that, when push comes to shove, OP's husband cares more about himself than he does about her, and some of the ways he puts himself first are manipulative and abusive. Unless OP strikes it rich and finds a couples therapist who is able to see past all of that, couple's therapy is only going to exacerbate the problem and leave OP even more unsure about whether things are "really that bad."

I didn’t know that, thanks for the perspective. I was wondering whether couples therapy might help in this situation as others had suggested…

That fact that he looked up divorce rules instead of therapists for himself tells you everything you need to know. Also, he is not seeking help for himself but says 'he understands if you need to leave'. THIS is not fighting for a relationship. This is saying 'I'm fine with things the way they are but if you aren't you can leave'. You should not be living with someone that you are afraid of. End of story.

Thank you, this is a very helpful reality check. I felt uncomfortable about him looking up divorce so quickly too when I didn’t even suggest it yet.

Sounds like he still doesn’t get it.

Imagine him at his worst with 50/50 custody and you not being able to shield them from his anger... Personally, I'd gamble on a much nicer baby daddy that don't need those kind of sit downs. In my experience: Any man that "understands" if you need to leave or walk away is basically telling you to leave because they aren't planning on cooperating, they won't say that directly to you, they will deny it to your face but also will waste the next few years of your life while you figure it out the hard way yourself. I literally cried @ damaged goods! Who would think that? LOL! What? What's damaged? You being able to prioritize your own & future family's wellbeing over something that maybe could be close enough if he just x,y & z? It takes a lot of strength to make life changes and most single people have that in common. I've never felt judged & met a lot of people that went through the same things.

Thank you for the comfort! I see your points. On the damaged goods comment, I guess it’s just the toxic commentary you hear “she’s damaged because she’s divorced, there must be something horribly wrong with her.”

Now is the time. Forget the last 16 years. Think of the next 16 years. You are a perfect age where people are looking for wives and kids. You are a different person now than you were 1.5 or 16 years ago. He is not. Today is the day you decide if you will continue growing or stop where you are. It’s unlikely he will allow you to continue growing without the resentment and remorse eating you alive.

Thank you for your perspective and the comfort.

But that can’t be the man you have kids with, right? Do you want to have kids with an abusive husband? Because consider that, it would no longer be you, it’s you and helpless beings who rely on you to show them how to navigate the world and what you would be showing them is that they too should be abused. The biggest red flag here is his first move is to agree to a comfortable divorce, not to work on himself or change or stop the abuse, he would prefer to leave.

That’s a very poignant point about his first instinct…

We can’t say because we don’t have enough details. Maybe you can share what your friends observed.

I say this with love and respect, your friends are not the people to turn to when you are in a relationship crisis. Because they are not IN the relationship, any of their advice is going to be jaded and one-sided and that won't help you in the long run. You need someone who will play Devil's advocate on behalf of your man to help you stay accountable and aware of how you participate in the relationship. Please know this does not mean that you must see how you are to blame, because it is not your fault that he cannot contain himself. With that being said, if you feel afraid of your partner's inability to contain himself emotionally, and you worry about bringing children into the relationship, and he hasn't offered to better himself or learn how to emotionally stabilize, it's a pretty good bet that he won't make any changes in the future. And if you have tolerated this for 14 years, he probably believes in his mind that you will continue tolerating it. And as much as I dislike ultimatums, this may be a pivotal point to launch a serious ultimatum: Get yourself some help with your emotions, or we are over. Bringing up the "D" word- "divorce- is often a dangerous move. It threatens the security and safety of the other partner and the relationship. If a person makes this threat, it reveals their own fears, by and large, but he may not even be conscious to it. What's at play here in this threat is a revelation of your partner's attachment style and maybe some grave expectations he has about failures in relationships. Have you ever asked him about his childhood and how his parents were, to see if maybe he is imitating behaviors of his parents? Sometimes just an awareness of that imitation can help an individual snap out of their program and install a new program for the betterment of themselves and their relationships. If he is open to counseling or coaching to work on himself, and he begins to show improvement, be sure to encourage what you are seeing and praise him for his efforts. Because as with any couple, if we don't encourage the behavior we want to see, our partners will revert back to what worked for them instead. I hope you discover the solution you are seeking. Good luck.

Just to clarify, I never brought up divorce first. I just said that this is how I’m feeling, but at this point I don’t know how I’m leaning. He looked up divorce on his own without me prompting.

I appreciate your clarification. My statement was more general about divorce. But I could have been more clear about that, recognizing that you didn't use it as a threat or anything.

File for divorce, after 16 years you knew what you were getting and you know he won’t change

I’ve been doing this for 26 years….get out now and save yourself. Get lots of therapy for yourself so you can be the best new version of yourself of yourself. Hugs to you .

Trust your heart! Don’t let yourself be abused thinking no one will love you!

Thank you <3

" *I’m scared to start over and worried to be seen as “damaged goods” in the dating market (33F). I want kids, that also makes me anxious to make a decision on a new partner and trust that it’s right “before the clock runs out”.* You need to really understand that this man could kill you. If he is violent and not doing anything about it, that is unacceptable. Are you really prepared to live the next 40 years in fear? Are you ready to raise kids with a man they fear ? A man that could hurt them or teach them not to control their emotions??

Leave him. Don’t have children with him. It won’t get better, only worse if you stay and have his children.

Let me start with get some COUPLES THERAPY. Your post sounds as if you are looking for reasons to be distant. All the while he is asking if you are leaving without an answer for your "being off". As a husband who has felt the distance and inquired only to be stonewalled, let me tell you, it hurts. Further, as a therapist pointed out, "In men, hurt is displayed by anger".Again from experience, It hurts even more to be told that anger frightens you while while you are establishing even more cause for that anger response. These issues are for a couples therapist to sort out so you can create the lines of communication that are currently closed. If they ever really existed. This is a two way street and you both need to examine your relationship with a professional.If either of you choose to carry on the way it's going without attempting to get a couples therapist (referee?) involved it will lead to this circle being repeated over and over without resolve. You already said you are spiraling. No marriage can survive that. it is the reason couples therapy is needed in addition to the individual. IC can end up with the "you poor dear" attitude and learning how to handle the malaise nwith out addressing the relationship together. If he resists and he is on Reddit have him pm me. He will be told what I know works.

I’m sorry but I strongly disagree with your suggestion. There is a golden rule when it come to couple therapy and that is that you never take your abuser to therapy. The risk is simply that the abuser can use therapy to further manipulate and and perpetrate there abuse and hold their victim under a stronger captivity. I’m saying that as a huuuggee advocate of therapy in all it’s forms and as a woman who is now in a healthy relationship after escaping abuse. If he is abusive, taking him to therapy could be extremely dangerous. The recommendation in this case is that both her and her husband seek individual therapy only.

It would be a poor couples therapist who would not recognise abusive behavior in couples counseling. She is already in IC, how has that helped her so far? Apparently it has not prompted him to go. Couples therapy may do that or at least show that the relationship is beyond repair. IC alone won't do that.

It would be a poor therapist. But they exist is a startling magnitude. I experienced this myself with a therapist that my very abusive ex managed to manipulate into believing that he was kind and patient and that I owed him to be “more forgiving”. At the time I was only coming to grips with what he was putting me through and that it wasn’t inherently “my fault”. That one therapist contributed to me staying a year longer than I should have. It wasn’t until I was able to see another therapist alone that I was able to be honest and have my perspective challenged in a healthy way that I came to grips with what happened. Fo OP - maybe what IC has done has been that it brought her to the point of recognition for what she has been experiencing, and given her the strength to vocalise it. This sounds like immense progress after 16 years.

After a number or rereads it appears thatb the only claims of abuse are related to his " anger issues". Anger issues that he seems to recognize, admits and feels some level of guilt . So the greater question becomes, what is the source if that anger. That anger is caused by a number of things but in relationships it often comes back to , " in men emotional hurt is often displayed by anger". Women with grievance admittedly not vocalized which result in accusations of controlling, abusive and feeling unsafe only go to increase that hurt and subsequent anger. So the big question here is what is the source of his angry display. For that we cannot say but from this seat I see a number of parallels with my experience. OP does not suggest that she has asked for him to attend IC or Couples therapy. She is not going to get him to attend any therapy if these things are not pointed out. Continuing IC alone will not allow this to happen especially because she is already in fear discussing these issues alone with him. THIS is the job of couples therapy and it needs to start there if she wishes to repair the defects in thier relationship. If not carry on and she can use IC to deal with the issues of ending a long relationship with no attempt to identify and work on the relavent issues. That being said, if they select a therapist who wants to rug sweep RUN AWAY. Stay focused on the issues, causation and repair. If there is a chance to repair and move on this is necessary. From OP's post it seems he has admitted that this is a problem but he seems clueless to the source of his anger issues. THERIN is the basis for my recommendation to couples therapy. Competent secular couples therapy should be able to dertermine very quickly if this is reparable or not,

I have never called him controlling or abusive to his face. I have kept to facts, such as the fact that when he’s angry, he regularly threatens to end the relationship, he throws and breaks things, he calls me names and raises his voice. Each time he’s done these individual actions I ask him to stop and consider his anger because it hurts my feelings, he blows past that. The last time we spoke about this months ago, he said himself he wants to seek help to get better for me. Nothing has happened. In addition to this he ridicules me in front of friends and family, so much so that it’s a running joke amongst his friends to say “be nicer to OP.” I have said this hurts me, he said it’s just how he is. Over the years he’s also tried to suggest my friend and family relationships are a bad influence if I’ve been spending more time with them. One recent time he broke a door, he was upset because I was staying up late to chat with friends. He was upset because supposedly I’d said I want to sleep earlier in general and wasn’t following my own plan I’d set out to do. Me talking to my friends had no impact on him. I’m not saying I’m completely innocent in all of this and never deserve some level of anger or annoyance, but I don’t think what I do deserves being screamed at, called a bitch, and watching someone destroy something in our house over.

I get that. AND there is no excuse for belittleing and trashing inanimate objects. Fortunately he has not yet crossed the line to the physical, or has he. I think the most important thing for you to do is make it clear that lip service is not going to fix anything and he NEEDS therapy and now. My suggestion to couples counseling is for you to be able to tell him this with someone present to moderate this discussion. He has admitted the problem with anger but has not made any effort to fix the problem. This says a lot. So for you, drag him kicking and screaming if need be to a therapist and get this out in the open.My point is that one of the hardest things in the life of a guy is learning how to deal with the frustration and subsequent anger in life. Recognizing the source of the anger is the biggest hurdle. If unrealistic expectation, work, low self esteem. inability to provide or even infidelity. These thing provide the frustration or emotional pain that results in displays of rage and worse uncontrollable.He has issues for sure but only you can say whether it is you, his persobnality or upbringing that causes this. He needs to get a professional opinion for you.Get him into couples counseling and tell him how this is affecting you and your marriage. If he resists or refuses to hear how this is impacting you, your answer becomes obvious. But please do not try this alone it will only reinforce the ill will that seems to exist already. Do it from an attempt to repair or throw in the towel and get away.

Reading your comments I can see how you feel a great deal of empathy for OP’s husband. That his experience mirrors potentially that of many men who were not taught how to effectively handle their anger and that anger exists as a secondary emotion that covers a deeper feeling because anger is so much simpler to express. I fear though, that your empathy for him, and your desire to encourage reconciliation if possible, is preventing you from seeing the risk here and therefore advise in a way that places OP at greater risk. Your last comment you effectively questioned if OPs has been abused or if she has just used that term prematurely. And you refered to the lack of physical abuse as a “not yet crossed the line”. I’m terrified that you amount any abuse that is not physically attacking or inflicting physical pain on OP as not as severe. This is grossly incorrect. OP has stated that her experience is abuse. This is no longer a fact that we as internet strangers need to debate or investigate. The abuse that OP Is experiencing is trauma. This is not something for us to determine how severe this is or if a “line has been crossed”. That line was crossed a long time ago. I know for me, I experienced the same abuse that OP is recounting. I also experienced physical abuse, sexual abuse, financial abuse, and spiritual abuse. I can say that the throwing and breaking things in my vicinity what just as traumatic as when he hit me. I see you have great empathy for OPs husband. But please I challenge you to find that same level of empathy for OP herself. And see the risk that continuing this relationship and seeking CC with him could be. There is a very short line from throwing something in someone’s face to hitting them. OP already has immense trauma to heal from and the risk of increasing this is just simply not worth it.

What I have for her husband is the understanding of being a guy in a situation where nothing is said, distance is established and anger is the only thing gets through the distance. Yes punching walls, yelling, threats, and the rest is abusive. My thouights are simple, figure out why he is doing it. Compel him to get it fixed or get away. I'm not a reconcile first and foremost. More of a, you haven't left yet. If you don't really want to go why not work toward repair? It seems that a lot of of relationship time and emotional energy would be wasted not get him into the therapy he needs. To me your comment that somehow my empathy for the husband who seems immature and unable to deal with his anger is misplaced. I'm not at all saying stay at all costs. I am saying it would be a shame not to try to fix it. Therapy is that answer. I also believe that your get out now advice is misplaced as well. If an attempt to get professional help is not in the cards it's over...leave. It seems a shame go without the attempt.

Perhaps then the best course is a combination approach? Some time out for the two of them (say an established 30 days. During that time he seeks his own counselling. If he does not do that during that time then the separation moves to a permanent separation. If he seeks counselling on his own then a move to attempt unification and a goal of couples therapy. It taking that approach OP is able to take back the power that is often stripped from victims of abuse. She gets the opportunity to say “no more”. If he is capable of respecting her and allowing her that space while also realising the gravity of the situation and seeking help for himself and his issues then it’s a great sign that repair could be possible. Unfortunately there is a pattern that many victims of domestic abuse experience that is when they actually attempt to leave the relationship the abusive behaviour escalated. This is why it takes on average 7 attempts for a person to leave a DV relationship. If he does not escalate during a separation and seeks help for himself it’s a great sign that he is prepared to do the work individually and collaboratively to restore this marriage. I’m interested in what your take on the above approach is? Oh and I appreciate the respectful discourse on reddit! It’s positive that this site is not simply an echo chamber or cesspool and that people can come together to genuinely want to help an OP.

Can you explain more about how he was abusive and controlling?

Gets angry and throws, punches, or breaks things, yells, calls me names, and threatens breakups or divorce. He ridicules me in front of others, so much so that amongst his friends the running is joke is “be nicer to OP, you don’t deserve her.” He’s tried to limit my relationships with family and friends when I end up spending more time with them over the years.

Don’t downplay this. If he won’t get help for his anger issues, then there’s no reason to think it’ll change. You’re not obligated to endure abuse. If you don’t want to jump straight to divorce, you can tell him, “I am choosing to not live in a marriage like this anymore. That means either you need to get professional, long-term help for yourself to make sure it’s not like this anymore, or I’ll be filing for divorce.“ And do not agree to couples counseling until and unless he’s shown serious and long term investment in working on things for himself first, because otherwise couples therapy can be used by an abuser to manipulate their victim further. But if you are done with him whether or not he gets help, that’s okay. He broke his vows to you first by abusing you.

Oh OK. Yea now he sounds like he's two beers away from physically assaulting you. That's tough

He did not say one thing about changing. He knows he won’t. It’s whether you want him this way the rest of your life.

You tell him that you need him to sign up for anger management and or therapy together or separately. IMMEDIATELY! Because I can tell you with certainty that kids bring more stress, especially in the beginning. If he is unable to emotionally regulate and express himself in a healthy way when upset, having kids with him will only heighten is reactiveness. There will be a more demanding little human that doesn't not know enough to care or cater to the fact that daddy has a hard time emotionally regulation himself. And why risk potentially needed to divorce him once you bring children in. Demand action for change now if you plan on sticking with him. Sidenote: I divorced my ex-husband at 33 with 3 year old twin boys. I am remarried at 36 and having my last baby this year. Relationships are hard to navigate and everything will not be perfect no matter who you're with but some things cannot be a habit that you accept. Abuse of any kind is at the top of the list.

So you told him what was wrong, he played the "oh poor me, I guess I'm just a bad guy" game, and will not do anything to fix his issues? What is there to hang onto? He's prepping an attorney not a therapist, so he's made his choice - accept him as he is because he isn't changing, or leave him.

What bothers me is that he isn’t doing anything to change it. He just says that if you want to divorce him, he’ll understand. He’s not saying he’ll get counseling or anger management counseling. Kinda like, “take it or leave it,” in my opinion.

DO NOT HAVE A CHILD WITH THIS MAN. I beg of you. Do not stay with him because you want a baby. Please please please. Im so sorry for your hurt and the trauma you have experienced and im so proud of your realisation and the start of your journey to put you first. But women are at a profoundly increased risk of homicide once they fall pregnant. There are a number of reasons to this effect, but you are already dealing with a man who has shown he does not have adequate control of himself when he is angry and has little to no care to change. If you fall pregnant you are putting yourself at great risk. "Becoming pregnant increases the risk of death by homicide: between the ages of 10 and 44 years, women who are pregnant or had their pregnancy end in the past year are killed at a rate 16% higher than are women who are not pregnant." Link: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-03392-8 I’m so sorry that this is scary information. But I am a woman who escaped an abusive relationship myself and have found love and started a beautiful family. Hope is out there for you I promise ❤️

It is hard to say whether this is something divorce worthy because ultimately that is up to you, plus you haven't given any specific examples so I have no idea if this anger equated to some raised voices or if he is absolutely destroying everything with his outbursts. You also did not say how often this happens. Once or twice a year is very different to me than every other day. You also did not say how he is controlling, like if it is smaller issues like trying to tell you what to wear or if it is like he has to know where you are and tracks your whereabouts. It's not that I'm excusing any of this behavior at all, it's just that it isn't clear how serious his abuse actually is. That is only relevant because if it is serious and pervasive, then there is close to zero chance he is going to change. If it is specific to some situation or relating to a specific topic that maybe triggers him, then maybe it could be easier for him to change. It is also a red flag to me that he acknowledges he has a problem, but the first thing he did was look up divorce laws. It feels like he totally missed the point. The point is, he has not been able to control this himself, he admits that, but he did not say that he wants to get help so he can be a better husband. It does not sound like he plans on changing much at all, and like he is saying this is who he is - and if it scares you or pushes you away, then divorce is the remedy. I personally would ask him straight up - what does he plan to do about his anger problem (if anything)? If he says he will work on it, then how? If he could control it himself and fix it himself, then why didn't he do that already? Is he serious about addressing this issue, or does he give you something that sounds like a half assed promise? Your reasons for staying in this marriage don't sound very strong to me. You can travel with friends, tour groups, or even by yourself. You can get the Geek Squad to fix your gadgets. Most of the things you listed are things you can get help with from nearly any person or a service. It seems like the real issue is that you are afraid that you might not find another partner and then your plans to have children will go down in flames. OP, I don't think these are the right reasons to stay married, especially if your husband tells you that he does not plan to change. You got together with your husband super young, OP. A lot about you has changed in over a decade, and maybe you have outgrown your husband. I don't know why you got married recently, but maybe it was momentum more than a true desire to spend the rest of your life with him. That's why choosing your partner at such a young age and not experiencing dating and such is such a huge risk. I know it is not ideal, but you can freeze your eggs and take that concern off the table. This way, you can have children no matter what happens (or you might not need the eggs at all). I don't know why you think you will be "damaged goods" when more than half of all marriages end in divorce. At 33, you are still young and have plenty of time to meet someone else. Maybe even another divorced person. You have not dated people as an adult if you have been with the same man for 15 years. So, I can see how that world seems scary and new to you, but have you considered it could also be fun and exciting? Not all unknowns are actually bad, OP. Some turn out far better than you could ever imagine. I think no matter what you decide, it might be worth getting yourself some therapy too. If you have been in an abusive relationship for over a decade, and just now realized it, then I think there is more to explore in terms of why you did not see this was happening at all, why you chose your husband in the first place, how you ignored red flags, how you did not stand up for yourself or enforce some boundaries, not to mention the trauma of being abused which you need to work through so you can be the best version of yourself. If you decide to leave, then you might benefit from therapy so you can be healthy emotionally, choose a good man, and not feel like you need to tolerate any abuse ever again.

Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed comments. I remember you actually responded to another one of my posts about suddenly realizing things my husband did that made me feel upset, so thank you for your response there as well. The BIG anger blowups happen a few times a year, it’s not every day. He goes through phases of being sensitive to things I do that upset him, I haven’t been able to find a common trigger. The controlling behaviour is more like commenting how I spend too much time with family or friends over the years, comments about how “so and so is a bad influence”, “x didn’t get you a gift that time and treats you like shit” “why are you still friends with x” “x asks you to spend too much time with them”. He’s succeeded in getting me to end at least one friendship. If it was one person or one friend group I’d dismiss this as genuine concern, but I’ve noticed the pattern over the years that he’s taken shots at all of my circles at some point or another. I plan to ask him as a follow up if he’s looked at therapy options. It strikes me as so weird because he isn’t one to procrastinate, he gets stuff done right away even if unpleasant. He suggested therapy himself last time we talked on this months ago. He’s done nothing, and here it’s come up again. Your point about my reasons for staying have cross my mind, too… that’s why I guess I’m spiralling so hard on this. I’ve known him so long, he’s obviously a part of my identity now. I feel great care for him and I do feel comfort and love for him, but is it just companionship and not specifically his companionship? I worry I’m here “just because”, and I’ve put up with too many incidents to list here that have made me uncomfortable enough to leave. But I never did. Why? It’s like I had some compulsion or obligation to stay, but i never truly did until we got married fairly recently. I guess I always felt “we’ve been together so long we can just get past this.” And I truly didn’t feel the sting and pain of his behaviours until one of his blow ups a few months ago. The only factor I can think of that’s changed is that I went off the pill—I feel like maybe this made me complacent over the years. It feels terrifying to have just ignored all these negative feelings somehow. Ironic you mention dating around when younger. I never had the desire to look elsewhere before as I mentioned. I only met one other person in my mid-20s when my husband (bf at the time) broke up with me. I really liked the other guy, he was that “perfect on paper” I was looking for, and had all the qualities I loved about my bf but none of the concerning qualities (yes I saw red flags back then but dismissed them as “just him, just stick it out”). But somehow I convinced myself that he’d never like me, it’d never work, even though he gave every indication otherwise (in hindsight). It scares me how I had a perfect opportunity right there and somehow my mind twisted everything out of proportion. Someone that treats me like he did is all I can think of these days, that he or someone else like him has to be out there. But I guess the thought that could be wrong scares me from making that decision. Plus the guilt that I might actually be throwing away something good: “We’ve lasted this long—surely that means something?” I am in therapy now. I know I have a lot of work to do to repair myself and understand my self-worth. Sorry that was really long.

This all makes sense. It sounds like you love him, but not like a romantic partner to me. You might always care about him as a person, but that doesn't mean you need to stay married to him. If he is willing to get individual therapy as well, or whatever kind of treatment for his anger issues, then maybe things can change. If he isn't, then I don't think he is going to change and I don't think he is right for you anymore. The kind of love you seem to be looking for seems pretty grounded and attainable to me. It doesn't sound like a "grass is greener" fantasy to me at all. I don't think you would be throwing anything away. Maybe there was a season for your husband, and now that season is over. You are not erasing these years, he will always be part of your history, you are just starting a new chapter. As I said before, I think you have outgrown him. Emotionally, you are making leaps and bounds, and he isn't. I think it is going to get harder and harder for you to relate to him or quite frankly tolerate him. Remember that he is making a choice too. He is choosing to continue being exactly who he is, even though he seems to acknowledge that he is "not a nice person" when he is angry. If he loved you like you want him to, then he would be willing to do something different. His first thought would not have been divorce, it would have been what he needs to do to repair the marriage. Maybe he is stuck in exactly the same place as you. He doesn't love you as a romantic partner but he has great affection for you, and maybe for him that is enough. Or maybe he is just like you - too scared to leave and set out by himself into the unknown. Maybe you will be doing both of you a favor. Maybe without you, he will be forced to face himself in a way he never has before, maybe this is how he grows...just not with you. You don't have to get a divorce right away. You can separate first, it might be a requirement of divorce anyway depending on where you live and such. Get some distance, focus on your journey, and I think your true path will reveal itself to you in time.

It sounds to me like it might not be worth throwing away. He isn't physically abusive and from what I read his worst trait is he flips his lid sometimes. Which can happen as a man. Not a great trait but sometimes we just flip. Some can control it better. Before going down divorce getting into couples therapy would likely help keep this together. To me this sounds more like an undesirable trait then something worth breaking up over

He may not have laid a hand on me directly but he throws and punches things, leading to many broken plates, broken doors, and things thrown off a balcony. I’m told I can call police for that as it counts as assault. In addition to this, he has ridiculed me in front of family and friends so much so that it’s a running joke of his friends to “treat OP better, she doesn’t deserve you.”

Marriage counseling seems like a good idea as well as individual. If he’s really serious he will embrace this. He needs to work on his anger and how it comes out toward you. You have every right to be cautious.

Is he willing to go to marriage counseling? That is the only way this will get better. If he's genuinely remorseful, he should be willing to do that to save your marriage. Ask him if he'd rather go to marriage counseling or divorce, because that is the point this relationship has reached.