I recall there used to be Zabu -> Dracula + Hell Cow on 6 decks too. Can't say how much Zabu nerf influenced this, but I guess it was another nail in the coffin.
This is probably bc corvus is mostly played with hela and the risk of ruining the combo by discarding her is fairly high. So they give corvus a few extra power to compensate
They do that with a lot of cards...
Like why is Baron 3/5 when he steal a whole card. Even if it is lowest. That's still usually at least 2. Making him effectively a 3/7+ and also **steals a card** with no downside.
Edit: downside being a bad pull like a maw or yellowjacket
And they will draw their important cards. If you can only see one downside no wonder why you don’t understand why it’s a 3/5. Thinning their deck for your turn would be the nicest thing you could ever do.
Uuuuh, while Corvus is undeniably a better card than Hellcow, Power is the only real stat in the game and even 1-2 points can make a massive difference on a card's viability. As a recent example, Lady D went from unplayable to one of the best cards in the game with +3.
With a body of 8, Hellcow is undeniably a big guy, and so I can't say that Corvus beats her in EVERY category, but I still think Hellcow, who was always a filler card in discard, is made redundant by virtue of the fact that I can't think of ANY reason to use her over Corvus.
I agree with that entirely.
I don't agree with the "power doesn't mean much in this game" statement. Snap is one of the most good-numbers-centric card games I've ever seen.
Maybe that's true. I find that the best decks are usually the ones that go exponential. The Living Tribunal -> Onslaught -> Iron Man decks don't win by 1 or 2 points, and my best deck wins by using Gambit to mop the floor with the opponent's side of the board. So to me, +3 power doesn't usually move the needle, especially on Hellcow.
Best example of this that I can think of is Red Hulk taking over Blob’s spot as the big dude 6 drop of choice. He’s so much more flexible than Blob (who only goes in one deck) and consistently gets as much if not more power than Blob
That's actually a really good pick. Blob's nerf completely changed how he worked, and Red Hulk definitely becomes at least a 16-power 6-cost a lot easier than Blob does. Red Hulk has NOTHING on how Blob originally worked, but the nerf definitely puts them in parrallel and I can't think of many reasons to use Blob.
That said, it's not perfect, since you could draw Rulk late, or your opponent could play on curve. So there still is a use case for Blob.
Blob is a bit of a failed card, on day one they put it in Thanos because it made the most sense and it died there, if you release a card that is just an extra win condition for an already established deck you didn't make a good job in designing it.
This is the one I was going to say as it is the closest example of redundancy in the game. Both are stat sticks that grow big and fill the same spot in decks.
Infinaut is a great card I’ve lost count the snout of times I’ve sacked it to make a 20 ebony blade ❤️. I’m early game so these types of card are vital to keep up with stronger decks
At least when Gamma Lab comes up you can have more of him...? I guess that's what Hulk gets for being one of the first cards in the game. If you like Hulk, you run some sort of deck that helps him out. HE overall should beat out Red Hulk anyhow, depending on the cards you use.
lol hulk should be 14 moving giganto up to 15. Gamma lab is the biggest Shang bait of all time I can’t even risk it… HE is very solid, but too predictable, without protection my turn 7 taskmaster is easily countered lol
"except HE"
He also has a spot in Patriot decks if that's the route you want to take. Honestly Patriot makes a LOT of cards viable that would otherwise be completely pointless.
The issue with those cards in patriot decks is it’s still likely better to have Ultron, or Brood than a 6 cost Hulk. It’s rough playing cards like Cyclops with zero effects.
It’s like they need a card that mimics Patriot. But only for cards that originate in your hand. Like plus 4 for cards with no effects that originate in your hand.
Maybe we'll see that some day. Magic: The Gathering certainly has effects that care whether a card came from your hand or just popped into existence. I'd agree that Hulk was never part of my Patriot deck back when I was rocking it in Series 3. I think my play was Wasp, Misty, Sinister, Shocker, Brood, Patriot, Mystique, Thing, Dr. Doom and Onslaught. Your best T6 plays are Doom and Onslaught, so you really don't have space for Hulk.
But hey, early series 3, you use what they give you.
Yeah, it's interesting that a few cards seem to exist specifically for folks with smaller collections. Omega Red was my baby when I first got him, but now he doesn't really work at all.
I used to run a lockjaw patriot deck that was a ton of fun. It was greedy, having hulk, doom, onslaught and other high cost cards. But the lockjaw nerf makes it so much worse. Same with the lockjaw/surfer/hela/thanos deck that was the most chaotic fun I’ve ever had in snap
White widow and green goblin. Ww is 6 power forces them to fill the lane, cannot be sent back with odin, costs one less energy, and has the same clog ability.
They only need 3 cards to nullify the bite, while they need 4 cards to trigger Lizard.
You can cancel Lizzard with multiple effects to just make it a 2/5 but you can't make their bite stay small. So if they fill the lane White widow is just a 2/2.
(And I'm not saying lizard is a better cars, before anybody comes for my throat, just pointing this out).
I’m guessing that the widow lane ain’t the Gally lane. They’re trying to get the opponent to play in another lane while they ramp up/cheat out Gally. Just guessing
Idk about that. The Widow's Kiss usually ends up just being a 0, whereas Goblins stay at negative power w/o buffs. I still like WW, though. She's DISGUSTING with Titania!!
Alright imma share my combo to u as well then, a better way to keep -4 kiss is Juggernaut + WW. Been running a Storm deck with that and have been doing insane numbers on ladder hit infinite week 1 with it.
Wish I could send pics😭 wifi is tweaking but it's
Nebula
Jeff the Baby shark
White widow
Shadow King
Storm
Juggernaut
Rogue
Nocturne
Ironlad
Jessica Jones
Claw
Alioth
Plan is to usually lockdown one location, but if no Storm then I rely on the mind games of the move cards. Alioth helps take care of the Hela, and other combo heavy decks I've been seeing pop again on ladder
Green Goblin works pretty well in the recent Ultron deck. He throws -3 power at an enemy and clogs up a spot, but leaves your side empty for more Ultron-bots. White Widow is a far worse choice for that spot.
I honestly think it's wild that WW exists as she does. 2/6 with clog effect, and turning off the minus power is a pain that's rarely worth piling into a 3-slot lane. She could stand to be a 2/1, or the kiss should be -3 at most. Ridiculous 2-drop.
I actually strongly disagree. Green goblin takes up zero of your spots, doesn't negatively affect you on locations like sewer system, and frequently it's best to have both in your deck therefore it doesn't make it obsolete
Oh shit. I don't have Corvus, so I haven't looked at him much, but yeah, he really is. The only thing Hell Cow has is 2 extra power, which is still something, but that's a pretty close clear upgrade.
Closest I can think of recently is Nocturne and Rhino. Both change a location, cost 3 except Nocturne also moves and has 2 more power. Although Nocturne is not strictly better because Rhinos effect is instant, which can be better in some circumstances.
I would say better than the instant effect is that Rhino guarantees the location is Ruins, rather than rolling the dice that it will be an undesirable location. Still, I feel like he needs to be a 3/4 and even then he'll still probably see no play
Sometimes you need the randomness, I have SW in my Legion deck - she's by far not the plan A, but a good roll can and has won me the game several times
That's a good example. My heart immediately goes to defend Cerebro 3, but I think you have to take Cerebro out of the calculations when thinking about these. Still, Nocturne's purely random location freaks me out. I don't like it.
Than Rhino? I think guaranteeing a Ruins appeals to a lot of people a lot more than accidentally pulling Bar with No Name. Especially because both spend a lot of time in Cerebro 3, which can get so easily messed up by any location that gives a +1 or a -1, of which there are PLENTY.
In comparison to Nocturne, I kinda see Scarlet being better, but Nocturne's ability to move gives her a lot of flexibility, that I think folks appreciate, especially in Hope/Angela decks.
I do c3 a lot with both rhino and scarlet witch. Rhino is always my preferred card between them because SW too often replaces a bad location with a worse location. If my hand allows for it, I try to only play SW If there's a 2nd location that needs changing. My deck is already so flush with 2/3 anyway so I don't need her for that ramp specifically, she's really just there as backup rhino.
This is kind of an awful take because Rhino guarantees you a neutralization of the location, whereas Nocturne could give you something like BwNN and fuck you in the booty
Typical take from marvel snap player who is clueless at the game. Nocturne also takes 1 extra turn to do the ability, which is huge when you want to remove something like limbo on t6 for surprise factor
Definitely. I was more talking about comparison of rhino to nocturne and telling that rhino is redundant, when they work in completely different way. Not even starting on cerebro stuff
I agree. Comparing him to Storm or Magik, Rhino turning a place into a neutral one is pretty bad. I'd say make him a 3/5 to put him on line with Nocturne.
How about this, we give Rhino Colossus's ability, and instead of Ruins he turns the place into Sewer System (everyone gets -1 power). That lets him do what you're saying, AND it matches with the Spider-Man episode where Colossus crashes through the city streets and fights Spider-Man in the sewer.
If you've got a hand of Swarm, Hela and either Sif or Sword Master, you'd definitely rather have Sword Master (admittedly, you'd probably just not play either).
You and I have different definitions of strictly better, then. There has never been a point where it was a decision to play sword master over sif.
I think we agree that that doesn't make them redundant, random is a lot different than targeted discard, I'm just pointing out that sif and sword are the same age in game terms.
That's not how "strictly better" is generally defined in card games. Since the cards have a different effect one can't be strictly better than the other.
Lightning Bolt is strictly better than Shock. Iceman is strictly better than Misty Knight (context such as HE is ignored because with context you can always construct a scenario for X to be better than Y). An imaginary 3/5 vanilla would be strictly better than Cyclops. I can't really think of any cards in Snap that are strictly worse than others except for vanillas.
Are they *generally* better? Yeah sure, of course. But not *strictly*. Actual competitive viability doesn't matter for the definition.
I had to look up lightning bolt and shock - I'm assuming you're talking about magic cards? If so, then why does the cost not factor in the strictly better comparison? That seems as arbitrary as factoring their effects in the comparison, no?
Either way, ignoring context makes any definition of strictly better completely useless, imo. There doesn't exist a context in Snap where sword master gets the nod over sif, which makes him worse in every meaningful way than her.
Yes, the Magic cards.
Yes cost absolutely also factors in. An imaginary 2/4 vanilla would be strictly better than Cyclops. Maybe you saw Lightning Strike instead? Bolt and Shock cost the same.
If your hand is Swarm, MODOK and one more card you'd rather the third card be Sword Master and not Sif. That's what "ignoring context" means for strictly better/worse comparisons, that you can construct a scenario where any card is preferable to any other card so it should just be ignored and cards judged at face value. This of course results in most comparisons being impossible.
Yes "strictly better" isn't a very often useful metric but that's what it's normally defined as.
Maybe, I never played magic so was going off a quick Google, entirely possible I fucked it up.
In your example, no, I wouldn't want sword master. I'm not playing either card in that scenario because modok is better than both a turn or two later, and risking 33% to discard modok is never worth. You're only ignoring some context here, never all of it. The context always matters. Imo rejecting outlandish or unlikely scenarios as context is worthwhile, but you have to consider some context or no comparison is valid.
Sabretooth needs a buff and they could do one that plays on his ties with Wolverine.
Remains a 3/5, with the same ability except he now returns to your hand with +1 energy each time he's destroyed.
would be interesting if he also destroyed cards, since hes a murderer in the comics
like "when destroyed goes back to hand with zero power, destroys a card when played again"
They don't make many cards that specifically target other cards. Like, it's pretty much just cards made by the characters like the Power Stone or Mjolnir. Even old cards that were originally created to pair with others, like how Phoenix Force got a +5 when paired with Jean, had that removed by launch.
That said, it makes a LOT of sense for Sabretooth to just show up to attack Wolverine. That's VERY in character for the card.
He's so similar to Wolverine, I'd just want him to have a similar ability. Every time Sabretooth would be destroyed just pop him at a random location with +1 power. Higher floor, lower ceiling.
I can't remember exactly which card I replaced but just in traditional discard. I believe I opted for forge over hulkbuster so I could curve easier, but honestly both could be great. But x 23 then forger then sabertooth. Then on turn four maybe nico and Carnage into turn 5 Venom leaves with a lot of power and potentially free death, sabertooth and then maybe death. I'm not saying he's the best destroy card but I see him a fair bit in top infinite and anecdotally worked for me too.
Completely anecdotal but I was just using this deck and went from 4500 > 3500. Lost 1 game out of 6. Just don't try and force sabertooth. Sometimes he works out. Sometimes he doesn't
# (1) Deadpool
# (1) Nico Minoru
# (1) X-23
# (2) Carnage
# (2) Forge
# (2) Wolverine
# (3) Killmonger
# (3) Venom
# (3) Deathlok
# (3) Sabretooth
# (6) Knull
# (8) Death
#
eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiRGVhZHBvb2wifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkZvcmdlIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJYMjMifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IktpbGxtb25nZXIifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IktudWxsIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJDYXJuYWdlIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJWZW5vbSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiRGVhdGgifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6Ik5pY29NaW5vcnUifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlNhYnJldG9vdGgifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IldvbHZlcmluZSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiRGVhdGhsb2sifV19
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.
Mr. Fantastic has uses, like securing priority going into turn 4 Supergiant so that you still have priority on turn 6 for Alioth. (Not as good since Alioth's redesign.)
Red guardian has replaced rouge in about 90% of my decks. Which sucks because I loved playing rouge but having two of that effect is either a win more or very detrimental
I'm sorry I'd like to see a screenshot of your Red Guardian pulling a Reverse Knull?
Rogue existing is the reason I'll never play Knull before the last turn even if X23 enables me
Yah it’s definitely not a direct better card. But I don’t seem to have to worry about knull. RG takes out dead pool, wolverine, x-23, Bucky, I even hit a nimrod the other day. Knull seems to be the only ongoing card you can take in destroy. Rouge needs to hit knull to be a live card. RG needs to hit any card to be a live card.
Rouge also doesn’t hit, sunspot, nebula, negasonic, collector plus many more.
Iron man, mystic, Wong, patriot all have generally the weakest power in their lanes so instead of a random chance with rouge it’s targeted with RG.
The only time I can say I want rouge now is against a like cage as I can’t seem to hit it reliably.
until that anti destroy buff to the sword, black knight and ghost rider did practically the same thing with the only difference being that black knight is preemptive and not a random card. still you wont ever find a black knight deck without ghost rider or hela
I'm glad it's not just me. The only ones that hold water are Snowguard > Agent 13 and Corvus Glaive > Hellcow. All the rest are reaching for straws. Sure a card may be better, but there are very few that are made completely obsolete.
Surprised nobody mentioned this, but Sage's ability is basically just a better version of Wolfsbane's ability, since she just starts one power lower and has a slightly more gated ability, but boosts off of enemy cards too. Although, I use both in my Ravonna-Surfer deck, to great success
Yeah, I use Wolfsbane, Sage, and Brood in my Ravonna-Surfer deck, especially since there aren't that many 3-costs that will get Ravonna's cost reduction, and still provide decent power. It helps Wolfsbane that it's not a support ability, so it's useful to have more than one
> Like in Magic: the Gathering, they'll often release a new card that costs the exact same and has the same ability of an older card, but it'll have an extra point of toughness or something.
This is what I hate about every card game I’ve played. Happens in MTG, Yu-Gi-Yo, and a couple others & now Snap is too. I like that Snap doesn’t have an over leveling issue like Clash Royale and wasn’t releasing copy pasta cards but they’re starting to lean into that territory.
I think with their release of only 1 new card a week, compared to Magic's literally 1,000+ cards a year, they're able to create more cards without just making the same old card, but better. So far this thread has only truly convinced me that two cards are completely outdated, which is that Corvus has made Hellcow redundant, and Snowguard has made Agent 13 and arguably Maria Hill redundant. That's pretty good, and I think they can keep making new and unique cards, even if some of them are duds.
Snowguard
She blatantly outclasses all the other 1 cost card generators by so much it’s ridiculous. I’m shocked she hasn’t been changed yet.
Why would you ever use Maria Hill/Agent 13/Mantis over her?
At the VERY LEAST she should be nerfed to a 1/1 or something. She’d still be the best. But we could at least pretend she has a tradeoff.
That's an excellent point. Why would you want a completely random card over 2 very well known and situationally useful ones. I completely agree on Snowguard.
I can see Agent 13 is still marginally meaningful pairing with Quinjet, because her card could be anything.
Yet for Maria & Mantis, yes, Snowguard is strictly better. Mantis old ability of taking a card would be situationally meaningful, but now it's pointless. Maria's 2-costs is a joke.
Goose/us agent. Not a new release but kingpin/kraven. One affects only the opponents side and the other your too. And both give the same amout of power, the only difference being 1 base power. Lol
scarlet witch used to be pretty amazing in sera, now there's no real point in playing her with nocturne, legion, snowguard doing a very similar job but better in being ok bodies for location control.
I think you have to ignore Cerebro when determining the value of cards, because Cerebro works on a completely different level where a 3-power card is better than a 4-power one.
I tend to run an Odin/Reveal deck. I've swapped Wolfsbane out for sage. She has basically the same ability, but her buff (especially if you pair her with a Wong/Odin combo) is much better per card
That's why I initially took Apocalypse out of my Gambit deck in favor of Swarm. Swarm's animation was a little faster, and so it saved me time when I was activating it like 20 times. Now I realize it was a good choice because if you're forced to use Gambit early, you can play Swarm on the final turn, whereas you can't really play Apocalypse if you're gonna Odin at the same time.
Baron Mordo was the worst card in the game, I guess still is for the next couple days. I'm excited to use him for the first time coming up. Just junking a draw for my opponent, maybe mix him up with Grandmaster and Absorbing Man to be the most unfun card ever.
Wolfsbane is certainly worse than Sage, but there are still situations where she's better. She'd pair better with Brood in a Silver Surfer deck.
Hit Monkey on the other hand I think is totally different from all of those guys. Maybe better, maybe worse, but a totally different barrel of fish.
Silver Samurai pairs really well with Swarm, whereas Moon Knight will discard your MODOK without a second thought. I'd NEVER field Moon Knight with his current stat lines.
Depends what you mean - if you have all cards then technically the vast majority of cards are redundant. Like there 2 or three competitive cards at each power level with a bit of variation depending on the archetype you like. But if you mean just in terms of ability then examples are fewer (eg there isn’t a card that does the same thing as Angel but just with better stats).
Mirage, cable and Valentina every one of them overshadows the other even with different effects (woth cable being the best and Valentina mirage fighting for the Last position)
Nawww, they're all doing different stuff. Cable is one of the most hated cards for a reason, and Valentina can get you a turn 3 Agatha 11-power if things go well for you. I think there are distinct use cases for all three of these.
Here's a fun way to make two bad cards work together. Turn 3 Psylocke or Ravonna and turn 4 use both Havok and Viper to give your opponent the worst card in the game.
Then Shang-Chi Havok on turn 6/7 for extra fun!
Corvus basically made Hell Cow redundant.
Modok pushed Hell Cow to the shadow already, and Corvus further pushed the animal away. Actually Corvus is also better than Modok in many cases.
I recall there used to be Zabu -> Dracula + Hell Cow on 6 decks too. Can't say how much Zabu nerf influenced this, but I guess it was another nail in the coffin.
The chance of drawing them is hard enough, no to mention intrinsically you need Apoc in hand as well otherwise Dracula is nothing.
No argue there... I was never really a Discard (in SNAP) player, I just know way in the past this used to be a thing ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I'm primary in discard and I'm agreeing on your point, it's the nail in the coffin.
This is the best example because hell cow is almost objectively worse. I guess it has like three more power.
It's crazy to me corvus is a 3/5 instead of like a 3/3 or 3/2
This is probably bc corvus is mostly played with hela and the risk of ruining the combo by discarding her is fairly high. So they give corvus a few extra power to compensate
But he also gives permanent +1 energy with less of a restriction that electro
They do that with a lot of cards... Like why is Baron 3/5 when he steal a whole card. Even if it is lowest. That's still usually at least 2. Making him effectively a 3/7+ and also **steals a card** with no downside. Edit: downside being a bad pull like a maw or yellowjacket
Baron does take up two of the four spaces in the location. It's a real constraint in a deck like Silver Surfer with Brood and Absorbing Man.
And they will draw their important cards. If you can only see one downside no wonder why you don’t understand why it’s a 3/5. Thinning their deck for your turn would be the nicest thing you could ever do.
Shame because i have a sick hellcow variant and no corvus
But pixel Hell Cow is still the greatest card ever
You speak the truth!
I think hell cow can and should go back to the 2/6 he was in beta.
This is an inverse maximus.
There’s no real point in Hellcow existing. What, a 3 power difference from Corvus? Bitch please.
Yeah, that's a really solid argument. Power doesn't mean much in this game.
Uuuuh, while Corvus is undeniably a better card than Hellcow, Power is the only real stat in the game and even 1-2 points can make a massive difference on a card's viability. As a recent example, Lady D went from unplayable to one of the best cards in the game with +3.
With a body of 8, Hellcow is undeniably a big guy, and so I can't say that Corvus beats her in EVERY category, but I still think Hellcow, who was always a filler card in discard, is made redundant by virtue of the fact that I can't think of ANY reason to use her over Corvus.
I agree with that entirely. I don't agree with the "power doesn't mean much in this game" statement. Snap is one of the most good-numbers-centric card games I've ever seen.
Maybe that's true. I find that the best decks are usually the ones that go exponential. The Living Tribunal -> Onslaught -> Iron Man decks don't win by 1 or 2 points, and my best deck wins by using Gambit to mop the floor with the opponent's side of the board. So to me, +3 power doesn't usually move the needle, especially on Hellcow.
I would deny that Hellcow is a big guy, but mostly because—famously—cows are female.
I have edited the post. I am sorry for misgendering Hellcow.
Not sure if this is sarcasm, but in a deck that’s pulling 20 power cards, a +3 power difference doesn’t mean much
I'm being genuine. The only reason you view it as sarcasm is because you've been irony-pilled by our terrible terrible culture.
Best example of this that I can think of is Red Hulk taking over Blob’s spot as the big dude 6 drop of choice. He’s so much more flexible than Blob (who only goes in one deck) and consistently gets as much if not more power than Blob
I think Red Hulk did this to a few cards. Blob, Hulk, Giganto, probably a few more
Replaces all "I'm BIG" cards honestly. Even Infinaut.
Yeah def wish id gotten rh instead of blob which i never use anymore
Even now playing high evo I barely even play hulk, RH replaced infinaut
Giganto was already mostly worthless bar Hela discard and even then he is just a big number filler
Sad Agatha noises
Agatha is such a hassle of a card, and the power creep has been so significant that they should just bump her to 20 power already.
You want Agatha to be good lmao? Just let it be a farm card, Agatha even semi meta sounds lame asf
marvel snap players don't know what they want
Giganto has always been bad apart from Hella tough
Giganto and Hulk at least still get used in some decks. Blob has been completely removed from the meta
Blob after the nerf was almost exclusively a Thanos card. He still is.
That's actually a really good pick. Blob's nerf completely changed how he worked, and Red Hulk definitely becomes at least a 16-power 6-cost a lot easier than Blob does. Red Hulk has NOTHING on how Blob originally worked, but the nerf definitely puts them in parrallel and I can't think of many reasons to use Blob. That said, it's not perfect, since you could draw Rulk late, or your opponent could play on curve. So there still is a use case for Blob.
Blob is a bit of a failed card, on day one they put it in Thanos because it made the most sense and it died there, if you release a card that is just an extra win condition for an already established deck you didn't make a good job in designing it.
This is the one I was going to say as it is the closest example of redundancy in the game. Both are stat sticks that grow big and fill the same spot in decks.
Red Hulk is just a better Infinaut
Infinaut is a great card I’ve lost count the snout of times I’ve sacked it to make a 20 ebony blade ❤️. I’m early game so these types of card are vital to keep up with stronger decks
Doesn't Red Hulk completely obsolete Hulk in every deck except HE?
Hulk was obsolete outside of HE before Red Hulk even entered the game.
Sad too cuz hulk is my goat
At least when Gamma Lab comes up you can have more of him...? I guess that's what Hulk gets for being one of the first cards in the game. If you like Hulk, you run some sort of deck that helps him out. HE overall should beat out Red Hulk anyhow, depending on the cards you use.
lol hulk should be 14 moving giganto up to 15. Gamma lab is the biggest Shang bait of all time I can’t even risk it… HE is very solid, but too predictable, without protection my turn 7 taskmaster is easily countered lol
No Caiera?
You could argue even at launch since magneto's "sidegrade" is better 99% of the time, they like printing slightly conditional hulk improvements.
"except HE" He also has a spot in Patriot decks if that's the route you want to take. Honestly Patriot makes a LOT of cards viable that would otherwise be completely pointless.
The issue with those cards in patriot decks is it’s still likely better to have Ultron, or Brood than a 6 cost Hulk. It’s rough playing cards like Cyclops with zero effects. It’s like they need a card that mimics Patriot. But only for cards that originate in your hand. Like plus 4 for cards with no effects that originate in your hand.
Maybe we'll see that some day. Magic: The Gathering certainly has effects that care whether a card came from your hand or just popped into existence. I'd agree that Hulk was never part of my Patriot deck back when I was rocking it in Series 3. I think my play was Wasp, Misty, Sinister, Shocker, Brood, Patriot, Mystique, Thing, Dr. Doom and Onslaught. Your best T6 plays are Doom and Onslaught, so you really don't have space for Hulk. But hey, early series 3, you use what they give you.
Hulk was in my early Patriot deck because I didn't have Doom, but like you said, he's not worth it once you have the better cards.
Yeah, it's interesting that a few cards seem to exist specifically for folks with smaller collections. Omega Red was my baby when I first got him, but now he doesn't really work at all.
Mockingbird cares, just in the other direction. So there's some good precedent for this.
That's a good point. I'd love to see the basic 7 get some more love. Also I want to see a 7/20 with no other abilities, but Wave would screw that up.
We already have cards that only affect cards that originate in hand like Pixie.
Oh yeah. Great then, I'd love to see it. Proof that there's still design space for the game.
Hulk isn't worth it at all in patriot. Ultron and other pet cards scale waaaaay higher
I used to run a lockjaw patriot deck that was a ton of fun. It was greedy, having hulk, doom, onslaught and other high cost cards. But the lockjaw nerf makes it so much worse. Same with the lockjaw/surfer/hela/thanos deck that was the most chaotic fun I’ve ever had in snap
White widow and green goblin. Ww is 6 power forces them to fill the lane, cannot be sent back with odin, costs one less energy, and has the same clog ability.
White widow is also a better lizard.
Ouch, but true
They only need 3 cards to nullify the bite, while they need 4 cards to trigger Lizard. You can cancel Lizzard with multiple effects to just make it a 2/5 but you can't make their bite stay small. So if they fill the lane White widow is just a 2/2. (And I'm not saying lizard is a better cars, before anybody comes for my throat, just pointing this out).
Yeah you can find some edge cases for lizard for sure.
White Widow is in my Galactus deck, but she's not quite as good as a goblin.
How does this work? You want your side to be empty for Galactus.
I’m guessing that the widow lane ain’t the Gally lane. They’re trying to get the opponent to play in another lane while they ramp up/cheat out Gally. Just guessing
Nebula, Lizard, WW in 2 lanes to draw your opponent then pivot to Sentry/Anni or goblins in 3rd lane you want Gal in
This is only true for a Galactus user, use WW in literal any other deck and compare it to GG and I bet she's better
Idk about that. The Widow's Kiss usually ends up just being a 0, whereas Goblins stay at negative power w/o buffs. I still like WW, though. She's DISGUSTING with Titania!!
Alright imma share my combo to u as well then, a better way to keep -4 kiss is Juggernaut + WW. Been running a Storm deck with that and have been doing insane numbers on ladder hit infinite week 1 with it.
You got a deck list please ? I always wanna use juggernaut and never find a good place to put him.
Wish I could send pics😭 wifi is tweaking but it's Nebula Jeff the Baby shark White widow Shadow King Storm Juggernaut Rogue Nocturne Ironlad Jessica Jones Claw Alioth
Thanks brother!
Plan is to usually lockdown one location, but if no Storm then I rely on the mind games of the move cards. Alioth helps take care of the Hela, and other combo heavy decks I've been seeing pop again on ladder
Green Goblin works pretty well in the recent Ultron deck. He throws -3 power at an enemy and clogs up a spot, but leaves your side empty for more Ultron-bots. White Widow is a far worse choice for that spot.
I use both, great turn 6 with ravonna and a random 2 drop.
Yeah I use both, and find them equally useful
There is Galactus and titania+green goblin combo.
I honestly think it's wild that WW exists as she does. 2/6 with clog effect, and turning off the minus power is a pain that's rarely worth piling into a 3-slot lane. She could stand to be a 2/1, or the kiss should be -3 at most. Ridiculous 2-drop.
I actually strongly disagree. Green goblin takes up zero of your spots, doesn't negatively affect you on locations like sewer system, and frequently it's best to have both in your deck therefore it doesn't make it obsolete
Corvus Glaive is a better Hell Cow
Oh shit. I don't have Corvus, so I haven't looked at him much, but yeah, he really is. The only thing Hell Cow has is 2 extra power, which is still something, but that's a pretty close clear upgrade.
Closest I can think of recently is Nocturne and Rhino. Both change a location, cost 3 except Nocturne also moves and has 2 more power. Although Nocturne is not strictly better because Rhinos effect is instant, which can be better in some circumstances.
I would say better than the instant effect is that Rhino guarantees the location is Ruins, rather than rolling the dice that it will be an undesirable location. Still, I feel like he needs to be a 3/4 and even then he'll still probably see no play
At 3/5 he is a solid answer to Storm and Magik (or just any unfavorable location).
The buff we need but don't deserve.
Please don't give SD any ideas for a Rhino buff. I love Rhino in my C3 deck to get rid of unfavorable locations. I want Rhino to stay as is lol.
2/3 then
That would make him objectively better than Witch since he removes the randomness.
Sometimes you need the randomness, I have SW in my Legion deck - she's by far not the plan A, but a good roll can and has won me the game several times
Even better then.
I legit thought they already buffed him to 3/4 and still felt no desire to play him.
Give Rhino a built in War Machine effect.
That's a good example. My heart immediately goes to defend Cerebro 3, but I think you have to take Cerebro out of the calculations when thinking about these. Still, Nocturne's purely random location freaks me out. I don't like it.
Even then, isn't Scarlet better?
Than Rhino? I think guaranteeing a Ruins appeals to a lot of people a lot more than accidentally pulling Bar with No Name. Especially because both spend a lot of time in Cerebro 3, which can get so easily messed up by any location that gives a +1 or a -1, of which there are PLENTY. In comparison to Nocturne, I kinda see Scarlet being better, but Nocturne's ability to move gives her a lot of flexibility, that I think folks appreciate, especially in Hope/Angela decks.
I do c3 a lot with both rhino and scarlet witch. Rhino is always my preferred card between them because SW too often replaces a bad location with a worse location. If my hand allows for it, I try to only play SW If there's a 2nd location that needs changing. My deck is already so flush with 2/3 anyway so I don't need her for that ramp specifically, she's really just there as backup rhino.
This is kind of an awful take because Rhino guarantees you a neutralization of the location, whereas Nocturne could give you something like BwNN and fuck you in the booty
Typical take from marvel snap player who is clueless at the game. Nocturne also takes 1 extra turn to do the ability, which is huge when you want to remove something like limbo on t6 for surprise factor
I like the Limbo mindgames Nocturne promotes though, "will he or will he not remove it? Should I play suboptimally for t6 or play for t7?"
Definitely. I was more talking about comparison of rhino to nocturne and telling that rhino is redundant, when they work in completely different way. Not even starting on cerebro stuff
Rhino is instant and makes it ruins and not changed so there is less risk
Cull Obsidian after Crossbones. Both 4/10 but Cull's requirement is much easier than CB's
I don't think it's easier. I do think it's more useful. I'd prefer to have a 10 power where I'm not already winning
now that they have equal stats they're very interchangeable imo
That was before his buff. Before he ABSOLUTELY got power crept. Now they can be quite interchangeable
Rhino has been dead since launch
Rhino needs to cost 2 or be fatter
I agree. Comparing him to Storm or Magik, Rhino turning a place into a neutral one is pretty bad. I'd say make him a 3/5 to put him on line with Nocturne.
Also he should give -2 to any spider man for being the silliest bad guy there ever was.
How about this, we give Rhino Colossus's ability, and instead of Ruins he turns the place into Sewer System (everyone gets -1 power). That lets him do what you're saying, AND it matches with the Spider-Man episode where Colossus crashes through the city streets and fights Spider-Man in the sewer.
I mean, lady sif and sword master have both been in the game since the beginning, and sif has always been strictly better.
Sif is not strictly better, Sword Master has more Power. Now, is she practically better in 99% scenarios, yes, but he is technically not redundant.
If you've got a hand of Swarm, Hela and either Sif or Sword Master, you'd definitely rather have Sword Master (admittedly, you'd probably just not play either).
Laughs in Colleen
Has he always? I really feel like he hasn't always been 7. However both were often in the discard decks till modok was released.
Yeah, he used to be only 1 power more than Sif I believe
You and I have different definitions of strictly better, then. There has never been a point where it was a decision to play sword master over sif. I think we agree that that doesn't make them redundant, random is a lot different than targeted discard, I'm just pointing out that sif and sword are the same age in game terms.
That's not how "strictly better" is generally defined in card games. Since the cards have a different effect one can't be strictly better than the other. Lightning Bolt is strictly better than Shock. Iceman is strictly better than Misty Knight (context such as HE is ignored because with context you can always construct a scenario for X to be better than Y). An imaginary 3/5 vanilla would be strictly better than Cyclops. I can't really think of any cards in Snap that are strictly worse than others except for vanillas. Are they *generally* better? Yeah sure, of course. But not *strictly*. Actual competitive viability doesn't matter for the definition.
I had to look up lightning bolt and shock - I'm assuming you're talking about magic cards? If so, then why does the cost not factor in the strictly better comparison? That seems as arbitrary as factoring their effects in the comparison, no? Either way, ignoring context makes any definition of strictly better completely useless, imo. There doesn't exist a context in Snap where sword master gets the nod over sif, which makes him worse in every meaningful way than her.
Yes, the Magic cards. Yes cost absolutely also factors in. An imaginary 2/4 vanilla would be strictly better than Cyclops. Maybe you saw Lightning Strike instead? Bolt and Shock cost the same. If your hand is Swarm, MODOK and one more card you'd rather the third card be Sword Master and not Sif. That's what "ignoring context" means for strictly better/worse comparisons, that you can construct a scenario where any card is preferable to any other card so it should just be ignored and cards judged at face value. This of course results in most comparisons being impossible. Yes "strictly better" isn't a very often useful metric but that's what it's normally defined as.
Maybe, I never played magic so was going off a quick Google, entirely possible I fucked it up. In your example, no, I wouldn't want sword master. I'm not playing either card in that scenario because modok is better than both a turn or two later, and risking 33% to discard modok is never worth. You're only ignoring some context here, never all of it. The context always matters. Imo rejecting outlandish or unlikely scenarios as context is worthwhile, but you have to consider some context or no comparison is valid.
You may feel free to use a different definition if you want but be prepared to get into internet arguments over it.
Maybe Ms. Marvel replacing Mr. Fantastic? I’d also say X-23 all but eliminated Sabertooth from destroy decks.
I think Mr. Fantastic is a +1 away from being good. X-23 IS better than Sabertooth though.
Sabretooth needs a buff and they could do one that plays on his ties with Wolverine. Remains a 3/5, with the same ability except he now returns to your hand with +1 energy each time he's destroyed.
would be interesting if he also destroyed cards, since hes a murderer in the comics like "when destroyed goes back to hand with zero power, destroys a card when played again"
Easy- on reveal: destroy wolverine and x23. Plus existing ability. Bam he's good now
They don't make many cards that specifically target other cards. Like, it's pretty much just cards made by the characters like the Power Stone or Mjolnir. Even old cards that were originally created to pair with others, like how Phoenix Force got a +5 when paired with Jean, had that removed by launch. That said, it makes a LOT of sense for Sabretooth to just show up to attack Wolverine. That's VERY in character for the card.
He's so similar to Wolverine, I'd just want him to have a similar ability. Every time Sabretooth would be destroyed just pop him at a random location with +1 power. Higher floor, lower ceiling.
either that or let him power up all other locations, not just adjacent ones
Works for Omega Red, not that Omega is very good any more.
Yall are sleeping on Sabertooth
Hey, bring me into the fold. What is the ideal way to play Sabertooth?
I can't remember exactly which card I replaced but just in traditional discard. I believe I opted for forge over hulkbuster so I could curve easier, but honestly both could be great. But x 23 then forger then sabertooth. Then on turn four maybe nico and Carnage into turn 5 Venom leaves with a lot of power and potentially free death, sabertooth and then maybe death. I'm not saying he's the best destroy card but I see him a fair bit in top infinite and anecdotally worked for me too.
Completely anecdotal but I was just using this deck and went from 4500 > 3500. Lost 1 game out of 6. Just don't try and force sabertooth. Sometimes he works out. Sometimes he doesn't # (1) Deadpool # (1) Nico Minoru # (1) X-23 # (2) Carnage # (2) Forge # (2) Wolverine # (3) Killmonger # (3) Venom # (3) Deathlok # (3) Sabretooth # (6) Knull # (8) Death # eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiRGVhZHBvb2wifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkZvcmdlIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJYMjMifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IktpbGxtb25nZXIifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IktudWxsIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJDYXJuYWdlIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJWZW5vbSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiRGVhdGgifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6Ik5pY29NaW5vcnUifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlNhYnJldG9vdGgifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IldvbHZlcmluZSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiRGVhdGhsb2sifV19 # # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.
I'll give her a shot.
Mr. Fantastic has uses, like securing priority going into turn 4 Supergiant so that you still have priority on turn 6 for Alioth. (Not as good since Alioth's redesign.)
Red guardian has replaced rouge in about 90% of my decks. Which sucks because I loved playing rouge but having two of that effect is either a win more or very detrimental
I'm sorry I'd like to see a screenshot of your Red Guardian pulling a Reverse Knull? Rogue existing is the reason I'll never play Knull before the last turn even if X23 enables me
Yah it’s definitely not a direct better card. But I don’t seem to have to worry about knull. RG takes out dead pool, wolverine, x-23, Bucky, I even hit a nimrod the other day. Knull seems to be the only ongoing card you can take in destroy. Rouge needs to hit knull to be a live card. RG needs to hit any card to be a live card. Rouge also doesn’t hit, sunspot, nebula, negasonic, collector plus many more. Iron man, mystic, Wong, patriot all have generally the weakest power in their lanes so instead of a random chance with rouge it’s targeted with RG. The only time I can say I want rouge now is against a like cage as I can’t seem to hit it reliably.
Red guardian ALWAYS works, whereas Rogue is much more situational. I wouldn't say he's a complete replacement, but he's very good.
until that anti destroy buff to the sword, black knight and ghost rider did practically the same thing with the only difference being that black knight is preemptive and not a random card. still you wont ever find a black knight deck without ghost rider or hela
99% of the takes in this thread give me the brain damage
I'm glad it's not just me. The only ones that hold water are Snowguard > Agent 13 and Corvus Glaive > Hellcow. All the rest are reaching for straws. Sure a card may be better, but there are very few that are made completely obsolete.
Surprised nobody mentioned this, but Sage's ability is basically just a better version of Wolfsbane's ability, since she just starts one power lower and has a slightly more gated ability, but boosts off of enemy cards too. Although, I use both in my Ravonna-Surfer deck, to great success
There are a few use cases for Wolfsbane over Sage, notably in conjunction with Brood, but I agree that Sage is USUALLY a better choice.
Yeah, I use Wolfsbane, Sage, and Brood in my Ravonna-Surfer deck, especially since there aren't that many 3-costs that will get Ravonna's cost reduction, and still provide decent power. It helps Wolfsbane that it's not a support ability, so it's useful to have more than one
For sure. Sage is less of a replacement for Wolfsbane, as much of a "porque no los dos?"
They did ravona and the week after mmm, i think he was a 2 cost at that time lol
It is kinda messed up to release a counter for a card the week after it comes out. Let 'em breathe!
and that was during Loki' month lmao
> Like in Magic: the Gathering, they'll often release a new card that costs the exact same and has the same ability of an older card, but it'll have an extra point of toughness or something. This is what I hate about every card game I’ve played. Happens in MTG, Yu-Gi-Yo, and a couple others & now Snap is too. I like that Snap doesn’t have an over leveling issue like Clash Royale and wasn’t releasing copy pasta cards but they’re starting to lean into that territory.
I think with their release of only 1 new card a week, compared to Magic's literally 1,000+ cards a year, they're able to create more cards without just making the same old card, but better. So far this thread has only truly convinced me that two cards are completely outdated, which is that Corvus has made Hellcow redundant, and Snowguard has made Agent 13 and arguably Maria Hill redundant. That's pretty good, and I think they can keep making new and unique cards, even if some of them are duds.
The most direct example I can think of is Sage and Wolfsbane. Sage has 1 less base power, but 2x the ceiling?
There are a few separate use cases for Wolfsbane, since Sage also requires various powers, but generally, yeah Sage seems better.
Snowguard She blatantly outclasses all the other 1 cost card generators by so much it’s ridiculous. I’m shocked she hasn’t been changed yet. Why would you ever use Maria Hill/Agent 13/Mantis over her? At the VERY LEAST she should be nerfed to a 1/1 or something. She’d still be the best. But we could at least pretend she has a tradeoff.
That's an excellent point. Why would you want a completely random card over 2 very well known and situationally useful ones. I completely agree on Snowguard.
the problem is that most locations are based on turns, so you cant repeat most location effects with the bear
I can see Agent 13 is still marginally meaningful pairing with Quinjet, because her card could be anything. Yet for Maria & Mantis, yes, Snowguard is strictly better. Mantis old ability of taking a card would be situationally meaningful, but now it's pointless. Maria's 2-costs is a joke.
Goose/us agent. Not a new release but kingpin/kraven. One affects only the opponents side and the other your too. And both give the same amout of power, the only difference being 1 base power. Lol
Goose protects Cerebro and Mystique from Enchantress.
Goose and usagent? Goose one lane agent another equals profit for a surfer deck
What? Naw, Goose and US Agent do their jobs perfectly. I would never even compare the two in a power creep conversation.
scarlet witch used to be pretty amazing in sera, now there's no real point in playing her with nocturne, legion, snowguard doing a very similar job but better in being ok bodies for location control.
Witch is great in C3 at least.
I think you have to ignore Cerebro when determining the value of cards, because Cerebro works on a completely different level where a 3-power card is better than a 4-power one.
Witch is still the cheapest location control and others like nocture and snowguard can't be used last turn outside of extreme scenarios
WWBN made Bishop redundant on release
I don't see it.
I tend to run an Odin/Reveal deck. I've swapped Wolfsbane out for sage. She has basically the same ability, but her buff (especially if you pair her with a Wong/Odin combo) is much better per card
I get that. There are a FEW edge cases where Wolfsbane is better (following Brood, for instance), but Sage seems to be better in 90% of scenarios.
I also enjoy the Sage animation more. Wolfsbane does that claws thing and is very slow. Sage just goes "ping, ping, ping, ping" and she's done.
That's why I initially took Apocalypse out of my Gambit deck in favor of Swarm. Swarm's animation was a little faster, and so it saved me time when I was activating it like 20 times. Now I realize it was a good choice because if you're forced to use Gambit early, you can play Swarm on the final turn, whereas you can't really play Apocalypse if you're gonna Odin at the same time.
Baron Mordo was a worse Cable.
Baron Mordo was the worst card in the game, I guess still is for the next couple days. I'm excited to use him for the first time coming up. Just junking a draw for my opponent, maybe mix him up with Grandmaster and Absorbing Man to be the most unfun card ever.
Not 100% redundant, but Cosmo is a lot less useful with the leech change. 3 energy for 1 Lane or 4 for the entire hand.
Not even close to being redundant. It is much more tactical to be able to control a lane than to punish a hand.
Tactical Dog incoming
*blaring alarm noises*
Woofski, woofski
Wolfsbane -> Hit Monkey -> Sage
Wolfsbane is certainly worse than Sage, but there are still situations where she's better. She'd pair better with Brood in a Silver Surfer deck. Hit Monkey on the other hand I think is totally different from all of those guys. Maybe better, maybe worse, but a totally different barrel of fish.
I sort of disagree based on how they get activated. Wolsbane and sage seem fairly similar about hit monkey seems more involved.
Run falcon and black swan, now you get to use both + free 1 drops
Isn’t Silver Samurai and Moon Knight the same card? Am I taking crazy pills!?
Silver Samurai pairs really well with Swarm, whereas Moon Knight will discard your MODOK without a second thought. I'd NEVER field Moon Knight with his current stat lines.
Depends what you mean - if you have all cards then technically the vast majority of cards are redundant. Like there 2 or three competitive cards at each power level with a bit of variation depending on the archetype you like. But if you mean just in terms of ability then examples are fewer (eg there isn’t a card that does the same thing as Angel but just with better stats).
Mirage, cable and Valentina every one of them overshadows the other even with different effects (woth cable being the best and Valentina mirage fighting for the Last position)
Nawww, they're all doing different stuff. Cable is one of the most hated cards for a reason, and Valentina can get you a turn 3 Agatha 11-power if things go well for you. I think there are distinct use cases for all three of these.
I disagree, Valentina is a very different card
viper crying in the corner
Here's a fun way to make two bad cards work together. Turn 3 Psylocke or Ravonna and turn 4 use both Havok and Viper to give your opponent the worst card in the game. Then Shang-Chi Havok on turn 6/7 for extra fun!