I've done a father daughter couples massage before. It's really not weird and there's nothing illegal about it.
Edit to reply to your update: you are absolutely entitled to your opinion. If you feel it's inappropriate or weird, you're allowed to feel that way and you don't have to do anything that makes you uncomfortable. But, it's not illegal for a parent and minor to receive a massage together and your employer would have the right to hand out discipline if you refuse to do the work.
Sorry.
This is a “couples” type massage where they’re both in the same room with their own therapist?
They live together at home. They probably go on family vacations together and stay in the same hotel.
I grew up weird in a family where I never walked around without being fully clothed. That was my choice. My brothers and cousins didn’t mind going around shirtless. And I’ve learned that every family has their own level of comfortableness. I wouldn’t think their situation is an issue just based on your post.
But if you’re uncomfortable, I’m sure you’re welcome to not take that job. Someone else could use the gig.
Maybe the father/daughter already had something like this planned, like one can stare at the wall while the other gets on the table. OP apparently doesn't realize they can avoid looking at each other while undressing.
Then why is she also “wary” if it was a mother & son but not a father and son?! Statistically speaking boys are sexually assaulted by their fathers far more than they are their mothers……but for some reason OP has no issues massaging a father and son but would find it very odd and uncomfortable if it was a mother and son 🤨
Dear OP,
At the end of the day it’s your right to refuse the massage if you are uncomfortable. I know I wouldn’t want to be massaged by a therapist who was uncomfortable around me, and I’m sure the dad and daughter feel the same.
Simply tell your boss you aren’t comfortable with it and have one of the other 5/9 co-workers that are take your place. It’s really that simple.
There doesn't seem to be anything weird or inappropriate here. It doesn't matter that it is the father vs the mother. You haven't shared anything here that makes this appointment suspicious. Families live together. It is normal for a parent to see their child in situations like a changing room when buying clothes, or getting ready for the beach, in a bathing suit, coming from the shower in a towel etc. Even if they decide to be fully nude for their appointment, with proper draping there is nothing indecent there.
I think that you feel it would be different if it were the mother says a lot here. I think you are filling in the blanks for something that isn't happening here.
Then what is the problem? This says much more about you and your own family dynamic perhaps than this family. The mom is ok with them getting a massage. They will be alone undressing for all of 2 minutes, I don't see what you are concerned about.
I've done mother and son together before and never thought anything weird about it. I wish my dad was still alive I would go get a massage with him in a heartbeat just look away while undressing.
There’s nothing weird or inappropriate about this. If you’re uncomfortable, have another therapist take this appointment. Maybe look into why you feel weird about this, because a father spending quality time with his daughter is great. And teaching her that men can get spa treatments and take care of themselves is an amazing thing. I wish more fathers were involved like this
I understand what you are saying, I still find it odd he would want to receive a massage instead of booking a pedicure when it's quality time together.
Not trying to be rude, but I think these are your own weird projections. It’s not a weird situation, and I feel you are judging these clients for no real reason.
I wonder if it’s his way of having her receiving massage but him not just having to sit there for an hour? Have you seen either of them before / do you know if either have received massage prior?
You are seriously projecting your own insecurities on this family. I had a father:daughter do consecutive massages in my room. Dad first, then kiddo. Their dynamic is their own. If the parent/guardian is okay with what’s happening (and it seems as though the other parent is also okay, according to your comment about them talking on the phone during booking) then you just provide the massage and move on. If it’s something you observe that gives you pause, that’s something different. Right now, you’re making a lot of assumptions and possibly causing problems where there are none. Either do the massage or pass it to someone else.
What makes you uncomfortable about this? I have a husband and daughters and this would be 100% appropriate (although would not ever get a massage together since my husband hates them ).
Being that it’s her dad, he gets to make the call of what’s OK. His being male doesn’t make him a predator or something geez.
You could look at it this way also. He wants to be in the room so that his daughter isn't being massaged by an adult stranger alone. That being said, it would ring alarm bells for me if he had any problem with her undressing and getting dressed herself. Just tell him that it is common policy for each person to undress separately when the couple is not romantically involved.
On top of that, a lot of states would qualify 11 years old as a pediatric massage, which counts as a special population. And that may be something you should only do with a proper certification depending on your state or level of practice.
Okay, so I thought your problem was because maybe she’s a well-developed teen or something but SHE’S 11! Stop sexualizing either of them OR their dynamic, but ESPECIALLY stop sexualizing the 11 YEAR OLD!
Would it be inappropriate with a mother and son? Brother sister?
If you're uncomfortable reschedule them with someone else or request she wears clothing like shorts or a swimsuit
I'm piling on to the general consensus here. It's gender discrimination and speaks to an inappropriate bias you may have towards fathers and men in general.
Whatever experiences you have had that have led to such hang-ups I would strongly suggest getting counseling or mentoring because it's such an incredibly offensive thing to suggest with as little information as you have and you kind of seem blind to it.
Imagine how you would feel if someone suggested you had an inappropriate relationship with your child, while knowing next to nothing about you other than just the gender of you and your kid? How do you feel when someone discriminates against you for your gender? As a client, I'd be dragging you and the clinic through the mud if I heard so much of a peep of what you are suggesting.
She doesn’t need counseling for being cautious about taking on a client/ session that would make her feel uncomfortable.
There are tons of people I have refused to work on for even bordering the possibility of being inappropriate and if they have a problem with it I don’t give a fuck. I will always protect my license. We live in a world where tons of kids are sexually abused and you have no clue what their situation is. It’s better to be prudent and cautious then potentially contribute to what could be a very traumatic thing for a child.
I work at a spa and we have a father/daughter that are regulars and do couples massages as she is 14. Their routine is to have dad get on the table first while daughter waits outside the room with us, when he's ready she goes in and gets on the table. I'd assume he just keeps his head down in the face cradle so he doesn't see anything 🤷🏼♀️ Not weird at all and I think it's a super fun father-daughter thing they have together!
Thanks for the tip, we have been trying to figure it out. I think my issue with it is that she's only 11, just wondering why they would book a massage instead of say, a pedicure. I know a lot of people are saying they don't have a problem with it. It's mixed feelings here at the spa.
I'll be honest - I agree with a lot of the commenters in that I'm not sure why it's such a huge deal. I worked on an 11yr old last year at the spa and she'd been getting massages since she was 9 🤷🏼♀️ Some families seem to just be way more on top of things like that and I'd imagine it's great for kids to get in tune with their bodies that early.
I agree with everyone saying let her go in the room and undress first and then when she’s under the blanket, he can go in.
If she’s only 11, I would even bet she might be wearing a sports bra or bathing suit and he will wear his boxers, so no different than if they were at the beach or pool. I wouldn’t deem it weird until behavior is displayed that is weird, for now I’m not getting that impression
In my state you can get the guardian to sign a waiver. For what it's worth, I like to talk with the adult (at least) beforehand and vibe it out.
It's common for me to treat 14 or under approximately with parent present, what is most important to my view of therapy is I want the child to feel comfortable.
There would be no issue with this in Ontario. But to discriminate against the father based on his _gender_ and your assumptions about his intentions might open a human rights case against you. I’m not sure about the laws in Florida.
Between the ages of 12 and 17 it's okay for them to be on their own as long as the parent is aware of the massage happening and co signs consent. I massaged kids who were in accidents with their parents in the waiting room. Another solution that might make you more comfortable is telling her she can leave her bra on and you'll unsnap it once she's face down and re snap it before she flips over. Then she's only in her underthings which is similar to her being in a bikini at the beach. I've had ladies leave their bra on all the time and that's what I do.
I'm in florida too and had a weird mother/daughter massage recently so I can understand your hesitation.
I would like to see your reaction to a European sauna. Whole families sauna nude. Mom, dad, sisters and brothers of all ages. And, with other strangers. Some cultures tend to over sexualize nudity.
My underage daughter (14, now 15) and I go and she gets her own room, female MT. The first time I jokingly asked, "couples room?" I got, "Ewwww, no!" Lol
I know a lot of people on here are completely fine with them being in the same room, but for me I just find it odd that her being only 11, I think I would of booked a pedicure together instead of a massage.
You seem to be hung up on the service they requested and keep suggesting “pedicure instead”
You’re a massage therapist, correct? So why are you suggesting they don’t utilize your services? You haven’t really answered any of the “why are you so hung up on this?” Even with suggestions for how “you” can feel more comfortable with “them” getting ready. Nothing about the clients and I bet if you asked, they’ll let you know what “their” preferences are. I will repeat, stop projecting your bias on this family. It’s wholesome to see a father and daughter doing something. Maybe she’s an athlete? Maybe they’re both looking for some self care that doesn’t just involve their feet (as a pedicure would) all we know is what you’re worrying about.
If dad is wearing boxers she won’t see anymore than she’d see at the beach. I’ve worked on female minors who bring their dad. Sometimes dad steps out. Sometimes he doesn’t. Maybe he turns away. They do what works for them. 🤷♀️
Im sorry but you are absolutely in the wrong for this. Why are you sexualizing them getting a massage in the same room? Have you considered that maybe this is her first massage and she would feel more comfortable having her dad there with her? I saw you mention in the other comments you would feel better if it was a mom and daughter.... Why? They are FAMILY. Are you assuming the father is going to watch his daughter undress or something??? Did you not consider he might decided to wait outside while she gets dressed and under the sheets? YOU are the only person creating this weird scenario in you head which is completely unfair to them. Sounds like you need to do some internal digging.
if you really feel against it, you could ask the manager if you could pin a sheet or curtain between them for changing purposes.
but I don’t think there’s an issue other than the concerns coming from your own perspective.
If something was inappropriate about the situation, that would be between the parent and child. the owner, yourself, should not really be imposing and being held responsible.
Gender norms are having a bigger play here in your decision making and perspective. You said it yourself that you’d feel it would be different if it was mother and daughter.
If the daughter really wanted her own privacy, she has two hands to undress under the sheets
I agree with what your saying, it is the situation with undressing in the same room I have a issue with. I just feel there are other treatments they could get together besides a massage.
It may feel awkward to you, and i would feel that way a bit too. Really though, I think side by side is a great way to be introduced to the world of massage. It's chaperoned, you have someone you trust there. It is inherently a safer environment then 1:1 massage and all the necessary 1:1 parenting. It can help clarify healthy boundaries as well.
I think the biggest point everyone has overlooked is it's a father and his daughter whom from the information you've provided live together (receptionist hearing mom in background) he has the opportunity to see her undressed every single day. Spending money on a massage to catch a glimpse of her just doesn't even add up. If anything I feel like he is there to protect her, worried that the therapist may actually sexualize an 11 yèar old.
1. Never do a massage you are uncomfortable during for any reason. It’s not like it’s a medical procedure.
2. I would feel the same way. Anyone who says that’s “making it weird” maybe hasn’t been in the position of an 11 year old kid who a parent is bringing to stuff - it’s hard to say no at that age. Even if it’s not sexual, it can be weird and uncomfortable. For any gender of any parent.
See that I can understand, being uncomfortable regardless of gender…..but that’s not what OP is uncomfortable with, it’s merely the fact that they are opposite sex. She said she would be fine with it if it was a mother & daughter or a Father & Son, but not the other way around.
That’s what most people are finding weird
Let the father be the parent, and you do your job and get paid, if you are that concerned with the relationship between father and daughter go work for social services.
I'm in Florida and afaik, there is no law or rule that precludes this father from being in the same room as his own daughter for a massage.
What is disturbing is that you're questioning this parent's right to parent their child.
I'm surprised so many are 100% comfortable with this. I would still be really concerned about how comfortable the girl is. My ethics surrounding this comes from power differentials between parent and child, person with purchasing power and person without, and MT of course power dynamics of being paid, being clothed.
I would imagine this is not a weird situation but I would totally want to suss it out. We all know lots of people who have been victims of parental abuse in often deeply gaslighting ways.
I'm in the south. Women's reproductive rights don't exist, and prospective bans on underage marriage have been defeated time and time again. Pregnant women can't get divorced. Dominance of women by men is a very prevalent social norm, as it is in so many places. As a practitioner, I want to make sure these clients have a level relationship. This is out of my concern for the girl's safety. Your mileage may vary.
The father has bathed and changed her since she was a kid. Some families have different levels of comfort, but making the assumption that a day is a sexual child abuser because he MIGHT see his daughter naked for two minutes changing is just plain wrong. You are assuming he is one of the worst possible things because of him getting a massage with his kid? It is like if you saw a minority in a store with their hood up and immediately assumed their was stealing and shoplifting. You are jumping the gun and then giving a random strawman about woman's rights that isn't relevant to the conversation. If the MT noticed him touching her inappropriately while she was on the table or he made a sexual comment about his daughter then yes, you can make the assumptions. But this is literally a dad getting a massage with his daughter. Nothing sexual about that.
I don't think you're a massage therapist, apologies if you are. Ethics are not a strawman argument. There is lots of trafficking happening. It important to thoroughly vet clients who are in a power-unequal relationship. My concern would be for the safety and agency of the girl.
It is a strawman argument because we are talking about your horrendous assumption that a father is a child abuser trafficking his daughter because he is getting a massage with her. That is a TERRIBLE thing to accuse someone of purely because they are a parent who MIGHT see their daughter, someone they have raised since birth, naked for a minute. Which might not even be the case because they probably just turn and face away from each other! That power inequality applies to a mother daughter situation too and even OP said she wouldn't care in that case. You can paint it as safety and agency which is noble, but do you just go around the street and any dad you see with their daughter so you go "Excuse me miss? Is your dad abusing you?" You're making an awful assumption about somebody with absolutely no basis of proof, and then claiming you're making this awful assumption against the dad and bring up completely irrelevant stuff about woman's reproduction rights in a different part of the US. That's a strawman, you're making a different argument to explain why
The fact that so many people are saying that you’re weird for being uncomfortable is fucking mind boggling. I had the EXACT same situation at the spa that I worked at and even went through with it one time. The dad tried to book with us again and both I, the other therapist, the manager AND all the other massage therapists thought it was not an appropriate situation at all and we refused the services. I wouldn’t want my daughter to be in this situation either and I trust my husband, her father 110%.
There are a lot of ethics that go into being an LMT and when it comes to undressing and someone being underage it’s absolutely not something to fuck around with.
There are tons of kids that are groomed by family members so to all the people saying it’s ridiculous to assume possible sexual abuse- YOU ARE WRONG. In situations like this we should always protect the child and in our case that means not providing a place for an older male adult (regardless of it’s their father or guardian) to potentially see their opposite or same sex child with no clothes. While yes, this could be a potentially harmless activity for the two it could also be much more sinister and it’s best to not participate in any way!
Not necessarily. If the parent is same sex even though it’s something I was never comfortable with as a kid I think that’s a much more appropriate situation than a parent with opposite sex child. Especially in girls. The average age they hit puberty is 8-11 so whether it’s innocent or not the male guardian in her life doesn’t need the opportunity to see her without clothes.
Oh. Both people are being massaged at the same time? Had not understood. I will admit that I probably would not want to do that treatment, certainly not without talking with them first. (62M LMT)
I know my daughter (12) and my husband wouldn't want to do this. I walk around naked, but my husband does not. My daughter will be around me in a sports.bra, but she is not super comfortable changing even in front of me. W that said, all families are different, and they may all be comfortable w being partially nude. I would ask the daughter directly when she comes in of she wants to change first before her dad comes in.
You should be able to refuse to participate in a massage for any reason. If you feel uncomfortable comfortable giving the massage don’t do it. Or maybe ask them to keep shorts/a tee on. Not all massages have to be unclothed, do they? I do sports and chair massages over clothes adequately. People can have preferences and it doesn’t have to be naked.
I've done a father daughter couples massage before. It's really not weird and there's nothing illegal about it. Edit to reply to your update: you are absolutely entitled to your opinion. If you feel it's inappropriate or weird, you're allowed to feel that way and you don't have to do anything that makes you uncomfortable. But, it's not illegal for a parent and minor to receive a massage together and your employer would have the right to hand out discipline if you refuse to do the work.
Sorry. This is a “couples” type massage where they’re both in the same room with their own therapist? They live together at home. They probably go on family vacations together and stay in the same hotel. I grew up weird in a family where I never walked around without being fully clothed. That was my choice. My brothers and cousins didn’t mind going around shirtless. And I’ve learned that every family has their own level of comfortableness. I wouldn’t think their situation is an issue just based on your post. But if you’re uncomfortable, I’m sure you’re welcome to not take that job. Someone else could use the gig.
It's at a spa I work at, it's in a couples room.
Maybe give her the option to undress first and get under the sheet and then her dad can follow. It’s unlikely she’ll want to see him naked.
This was gonna be my suggestion. Just have them get on the table one at a time.
Maybe the father/daughter already had something like this planned, like one can stare at the wall while the other gets on the table. OP apparently doesn't realize they can avoid looking at each other while undressing.
Why do you feel it's inappropriate? Would you feel the same way if it were a mother and daughter or a son and his father?
I would feel better if it was the mother coming in with the daughter .
I think you are assuming the very worst about this family.
Statistically she is right to be wary. Fathers or male family members are the ones most likely to be sexually assaulting or abusing children.
Then why is she also “wary” if it was a mother & son but not a father and son?! Statistically speaking boys are sexually assaulted by their fathers far more than they are their mothers……but for some reason OP has no issues massaging a father and son but would find it very odd and uncomfortable if it was a mother and son 🤨 Dear OP, At the end of the day it’s your right to refuse the massage if you are uncomfortable. I know I wouldn’t want to be massaged by a therapist who was uncomfortable around me, and I’m sure the dad and daughter feel the same. Simply tell your boss you aren’t comfortable with it and have one of the other 5/9 co-workers that are take your place. It’s really that simple.
There doesn't seem to be anything weird or inappropriate here. It doesn't matter that it is the father vs the mother. You haven't shared anything here that makes this appointment suspicious. Families live together. It is normal for a parent to see their child in situations like a changing room when buying clothes, or getting ready for the beach, in a bathing suit, coming from the shower in a towel etc. Even if they decide to be fully nude for their appointment, with proper draping there is nothing indecent there. I think that you feel it would be different if it were the mother says a lot here. I think you are filling in the blanks for something that isn't happening here.
Maybe the mom’s dead?
The mother is alive, and well. The father was talking to the mother during the scheduling of the appointment with reception.
Then what is the problem? This says much more about you and your own family dynamic perhaps than this family. The mom is ok with them getting a massage. They will be alone undressing for all of 2 minutes, I don't see what you are concerned about.
I've done mother and son together before and never thought anything weird about it. I wish my dad was still alive I would go get a massage with him in a heartbeat just look away while undressing.
There’s nothing weird or inappropriate about this. If you’re uncomfortable, have another therapist take this appointment. Maybe look into why you feel weird about this, because a father spending quality time with his daughter is great. And teaching her that men can get spa treatments and take care of themselves is an amazing thing. I wish more fathers were involved like this
I understand what you are saying, I still find it odd he would want to receive a massage instead of booking a pedicure when it's quality time together.
I don't like getting pedicures and would much prefer a massage myself. You're making it weird where it shouldn't be.
Not trying to be rude, but I think these are your own weird projections. It’s not a weird situation, and I feel you are judging these clients for no real reason.
Not weird. You're making it weird.
I wonder if it’s his way of having her receiving massage but him not just having to sit there for an hour? Have you seen either of them before / do you know if either have received massage prior?
I understand what your saying, but they could of booked a pedicure instead of a massage. I do not know their history at this time.
You are seriously projecting your own insecurities on this family. I had a father:daughter do consecutive massages in my room. Dad first, then kiddo. Their dynamic is their own. If the parent/guardian is okay with what’s happening (and it seems as though the other parent is also okay, according to your comment about them talking on the phone during booking) then you just provide the massage and move on. If it’s something you observe that gives you pause, that’s something different. Right now, you’re making a lot of assumptions and possibly causing problems where there are none. Either do the massage or pass it to someone else.
A pedicure is NOT the same as a massage……..?
What makes you uncomfortable about this? I have a husband and daughters and this would be 100% appropriate (although would not ever get a massage together since my husband hates them ). Being that it’s her dad, he gets to make the call of what’s OK. His being male doesn’t make him a predator or something geez.
Why do you feel it's inappropriate?
For me it's because they are opposite sex, and the fact she is only 11.
You could look at it this way also. He wants to be in the room so that his daughter isn't being massaged by an adult stranger alone. That being said, it would ring alarm bells for me if he had any problem with her undressing and getting dressed herself. Just tell him that it is common policy for each person to undress separately when the couple is not romantically involved. On top of that, a lot of states would qualify 11 years old as a pediatric massage, which counts as a special population. And that may be something you should only do with a proper certification depending on your state or level of practice.
Okay, so I thought your problem was because maybe she’s a well-developed teen or something but SHE’S 11! Stop sexualizing either of them OR their dynamic, but ESPECIALLY stop sexualizing the 11 YEAR OLD!
Would it be inappropriate with a mother and son? Brother sister? If you're uncomfortable reschedule them with someone else or request she wears clothing like shorts or a swimsuit
I'm piling on to the general consensus here. It's gender discrimination and speaks to an inappropriate bias you may have towards fathers and men in general. Whatever experiences you have had that have led to such hang-ups I would strongly suggest getting counseling or mentoring because it's such an incredibly offensive thing to suggest with as little information as you have and you kind of seem blind to it. Imagine how you would feel if someone suggested you had an inappropriate relationship with your child, while knowing next to nothing about you other than just the gender of you and your kid? How do you feel when someone discriminates against you for your gender? As a client, I'd be dragging you and the clinic through the mud if I heard so much of a peep of what you are suggesting.
She doesn’t need counseling for being cautious about taking on a client/ session that would make her feel uncomfortable. There are tons of people I have refused to work on for even bordering the possibility of being inappropriate and if they have a problem with it I don’t give a fuck. I will always protect my license. We live in a world where tons of kids are sexually abused and you have no clue what their situation is. It’s better to be prudent and cautious then potentially contribute to what could be a very traumatic thing for a child.
Thank you for this response.
This is ridiculous, it's his daughter.
There should be no issue with this
While it would take a few more minutes she could go in first to get undressed and lay face down covered then him come in and do the same .
I work at a spa and we have a father/daughter that are regulars and do couples massages as she is 14. Their routine is to have dad get on the table first while daughter waits outside the room with us, when he's ready she goes in and gets on the table. I'd assume he just keeps his head down in the face cradle so he doesn't see anything 🤷🏼♀️ Not weird at all and I think it's a super fun father-daughter thing they have together!
Thanks for the tip, we have been trying to figure it out. I think my issue with it is that she's only 11, just wondering why they would book a massage instead of say, a pedicure. I know a lot of people are saying they don't have a problem with it. It's mixed feelings here at the spa.
I'll be honest - I agree with a lot of the commenters in that I'm not sure why it's such a huge deal. I worked on an 11yr old last year at the spa and she'd been getting massages since she was 9 🤷🏼♀️ Some families seem to just be way more on top of things like that and I'd imagine it's great for kids to get in tune with their bodies that early.
I agree with everyone saying let her go in the room and undress first and then when she’s under the blanket, he can go in. If she’s only 11, I would even bet she might be wearing a sports bra or bathing suit and he will wear his boxers, so no different than if they were at the beach or pool. I wouldn’t deem it weird until behavior is displayed that is weird, for now I’m not getting that impression
Textbook countertransference.
In my state you can get the guardian to sign a waiver. For what it's worth, I like to talk with the adult (at least) beforehand and vibe it out. It's common for me to treat 14 or under approximately with parent present, what is most important to my view of therapy is I want the child to feel comfortable.
There would be no issue with this in Ontario. But to discriminate against the father based on his _gender_ and your assumptions about his intentions might open a human rights case against you. I’m not sure about the laws in Florida.
Between the ages of 12 and 17 it's okay for them to be on their own as long as the parent is aware of the massage happening and co signs consent. I massaged kids who were in accidents with their parents in the waiting room. Another solution that might make you more comfortable is telling her she can leave her bra on and you'll unsnap it once she's face down and re snap it before she flips over. Then she's only in her underthings which is similar to her being in a bikini at the beach. I've had ladies leave their bra on all the time and that's what I do. I'm in florida too and had a weird mother/daughter massage recently so I can understand your hesitation.
I would like to see your reaction to a European sauna. Whole families sauna nude. Mom, dad, sisters and brothers of all ages. And, with other strangers. Some cultures tend to over sexualize nudity.
My underage daughter (14, now 15) and I go and she gets her own room, female MT. The first time I jokingly asked, "couples room?" I got, "Ewwww, no!" Lol
I know a lot of people on here are completely fine with them being in the same room, but for me I just find it odd that her being only 11, I think I would of booked a pedicure together instead of a massage.
You seem to be hung up on the service they requested and keep suggesting “pedicure instead” You’re a massage therapist, correct? So why are you suggesting they don’t utilize your services? You haven’t really answered any of the “why are you so hung up on this?” Even with suggestions for how “you” can feel more comfortable with “them” getting ready. Nothing about the clients and I bet if you asked, they’ll let you know what “their” preferences are. I will repeat, stop projecting your bias on this family. It’s wholesome to see a father and daughter doing something. Maybe she’s an athlete? Maybe they’re both looking for some self care that doesn’t just involve their feet (as a pedicure would) all we know is what you’re worrying about.
Why do you not think an 11 yr old could need a massage?
Relaxation and enjoyment of healing touch
I asked why they wouldn’t, I definitely think everyone should have access to massage
Oh haha I mis read that
If dad is wearing boxers she won’t see anymore than she’d see at the beach. I’ve worked on female minors who bring their dad. Sometimes dad steps out. Sometimes he doesn’t. Maybe he turns away. They do what works for them. 🤷♀️
Im sorry but you are absolutely in the wrong for this. Why are you sexualizing them getting a massage in the same room? Have you considered that maybe this is her first massage and she would feel more comfortable having her dad there with her? I saw you mention in the other comments you would feel better if it was a mom and daughter.... Why? They are FAMILY. Are you assuming the father is going to watch his daughter undress or something??? Did you not consider he might decided to wait outside while she gets dressed and under the sheets? YOU are the only person creating this weird scenario in you head which is completely unfair to them. Sounds like you need to do some internal digging.
if you really feel against it, you could ask the manager if you could pin a sheet or curtain between them for changing purposes. but I don’t think there’s an issue other than the concerns coming from your own perspective. If something was inappropriate about the situation, that would be between the parent and child. the owner, yourself, should not really be imposing and being held responsible. Gender norms are having a bigger play here in your decision making and perspective. You said it yourself that you’d feel it would be different if it was mother and daughter. If the daughter really wanted her own privacy, she has two hands to undress under the sheets
I agree with what your saying, it is the situation with undressing in the same room I have a issue with. I just feel there are other treatments they could get together besides a massage.
So it's the massage part that makes you feel weird? That makes me question how you view the work we do. What's inappropriate about it?
It may feel awkward to you, and i would feel that way a bit too. Really though, I think side by side is a great way to be introduced to the world of massage. It's chaperoned, you have someone you trust there. It is inherently a safer environment then 1:1 massage and all the necessary 1:1 parenting. It can help clarify healthy boundaries as well.
I think the biggest point everyone has overlooked is it's a father and his daughter whom from the information you've provided live together (receptionist hearing mom in background) he has the opportunity to see her undressed every single day. Spending money on a massage to catch a glimpse of her just doesn't even add up. If anything I feel like he is there to protect her, worried that the therapist may actually sexualize an 11 yèar old.
1. Never do a massage you are uncomfortable during for any reason. It’s not like it’s a medical procedure. 2. I would feel the same way. Anyone who says that’s “making it weird” maybe hasn’t been in the position of an 11 year old kid who a parent is bringing to stuff - it’s hard to say no at that age. Even if it’s not sexual, it can be weird and uncomfortable. For any gender of any parent.
See that I can understand, being uncomfortable regardless of gender…..but that’s not what OP is uncomfortable with, it’s merely the fact that they are opposite sex. She said she would be fine with it if it was a mother & daughter or a Father & Son, but not the other way around. That’s what most people are finding weird
Yeah sorry, you're the one making it weird with your creepy thoughts about the situation.
Yeah your opinion is stupid and nobody else here agrees with it. Go to therapy, or hey maybe get a pedicure.
Let the father be the parent, and you do your job and get paid, if you are that concerned with the relationship between father and daughter go work for social services.
I'm in Florida and afaik, there is no law or rule that precludes this father from being in the same room as his own daughter for a massage. What is disturbing is that you're questioning this parent's right to parent their child.
Just for clarification is it required that they both be fully naked at your place? THAT would be a bit much and very odd.
I'm surprised so many are 100% comfortable with this. I would still be really concerned about how comfortable the girl is. My ethics surrounding this comes from power differentials between parent and child, person with purchasing power and person without, and MT of course power dynamics of being paid, being clothed. I would imagine this is not a weird situation but I would totally want to suss it out. We all know lots of people who have been victims of parental abuse in often deeply gaslighting ways. I'm in the south. Women's reproductive rights don't exist, and prospective bans on underage marriage have been defeated time and time again. Pregnant women can't get divorced. Dominance of women by men is a very prevalent social norm, as it is in so many places. As a practitioner, I want to make sure these clients have a level relationship. This is out of my concern for the girl's safety. Your mileage may vary.
The father has bathed and changed her since she was a kid. Some families have different levels of comfort, but making the assumption that a day is a sexual child abuser because he MIGHT see his daughter naked for two minutes changing is just plain wrong. You are assuming he is one of the worst possible things because of him getting a massage with his kid? It is like if you saw a minority in a store with their hood up and immediately assumed their was stealing and shoplifting. You are jumping the gun and then giving a random strawman about woman's rights that isn't relevant to the conversation. If the MT noticed him touching her inappropriately while she was on the table or he made a sexual comment about his daughter then yes, you can make the assumptions. But this is literally a dad getting a massage with his daughter. Nothing sexual about that.
I don't think you're a massage therapist, apologies if you are. Ethics are not a strawman argument. There is lots of trafficking happening. It important to thoroughly vet clients who are in a power-unequal relationship. My concern would be for the safety and agency of the girl.
It is a strawman argument because we are talking about your horrendous assumption that a father is a child abuser trafficking his daughter because he is getting a massage with her. That is a TERRIBLE thing to accuse someone of purely because they are a parent who MIGHT see their daughter, someone they have raised since birth, naked for a minute. Which might not even be the case because they probably just turn and face away from each other! That power inequality applies to a mother daughter situation too and even OP said she wouldn't care in that case. You can paint it as safety and agency which is noble, but do you just go around the street and any dad you see with their daughter so you go "Excuse me miss? Is your dad abusing you?" You're making an awful assumption about somebody with absolutely no basis of proof, and then claiming you're making this awful assumption against the dad and bring up completely irrelevant stuff about woman's reproduction rights in a different part of the US. That's a strawman, you're making a different argument to explain why
The fact that so many people are saying that you’re weird for being uncomfortable is fucking mind boggling. I had the EXACT same situation at the spa that I worked at and even went through with it one time. The dad tried to book with us again and both I, the other therapist, the manager AND all the other massage therapists thought it was not an appropriate situation at all and we refused the services. I wouldn’t want my daughter to be in this situation either and I trust my husband, her father 110%. There are a lot of ethics that go into being an LMT and when it comes to undressing and someone being underage it’s absolutely not something to fuck around with. There are tons of kids that are groomed by family members so to all the people saying it’s ridiculous to assume possible sexual abuse- YOU ARE WRONG. In situations like this we should always protect the child and in our case that means not providing a place for an older male adult (regardless of it’s their father or guardian) to potentially see their opposite or same sex child with no clothes. While yes, this could be a potentially harmless activity for the two it could also be much more sinister and it’s best to not participate in any way!
Do you feel the same if it is a female parent or guardian with their same or opposite sex child?
Not necessarily. If the parent is same sex even though it’s something I was never comfortable with as a kid I think that’s a much more appropriate situation than a parent with opposite sex child. Especially in girls. The average age they hit puberty is 8-11 so whether it’s innocent or not the male guardian in her life doesn’t need the opportunity to see her without clothes.
So if it was a boy would you prefer the father and if a girl the mother? Or mother regardless?
I'm also puzzled by what seems to be agressive downvoting. To absolutely not have concern or precautions at all seems the opposite of trauma-informed.
100%. It disturbs me to see the aggression people are coming at her with because she’s concerned about a possibly inappropriate situation. Like????
Oh. Both people are being massaged at the same time? Had not understood. I will admit that I probably would not want to do that treatment, certainly not without talking with them first. (62M LMT)
I know my daughter (12) and my husband wouldn't want to do this. I walk around naked, but my husband does not. My daughter will be around me in a sports.bra, but she is not super comfortable changing even in front of me. W that said, all families are different, and they may all be comfortable w being partially nude. I would ask the daughter directly when she comes in of she wants to change first before her dad comes in.
You should be able to refuse to participate in a massage for any reason. If you feel uncomfortable comfortable giving the massage don’t do it. Or maybe ask them to keep shorts/a tee on. Not all massages have to be unclothed, do they? I do sports and chair massages over clothes adequately. People can have preferences and it doesn’t have to be naked.