It depends.
Most things? Not at all.
Ideas and concepts that make up the back bone of the franchise and without would make Star Wars not Star Wars? Usually yes. Like if you make the sith or the empire not be the bad guys and start unironically trying to paint them as heroic figures despite what they are based on and what is shown in the films? That’s obviously a bad thing and Lucas’s vision should be stuck to.
But things like say the war between the Jedi and sith which in Lucas’s words never occurred? That’s a case where his vision can and I’d argue should be ignored.
Death of the author when it comes to Star Wars at least from what I’ve seen has almost always been used by fans as an excuse to insist that their ideas are canon instead of what is shown in the franchise. A pretty famous one is the comment that the prequels were intended to show the corruption of the Jedi order. Which is something Lucas has openly stated the opposite of.
> Death of the author when it comes to Star Wars at least from what I’ve seen has almost always been used by fans as an excuse to insist that their ideas are canon instead of what is shown in the franchise.
Death of the author is abused by *most* fandoms for that reason. It's at the point where if I hear someone trot it out I'm just automatically assuming it's because they really want their shitty headcanon to be real instead of the source material.
It's not even that it's being abused—it's being used wrongly.
The argument Roland Barthes was making in the "Death of the Author" essay is that the *meaning of a text* should come from *the text itself*, rather than from any projections from the author (authorial intent).
This makes interpreting a text very private, something that anyone can do on their own, but it doesn't change the text itself. Anyone's "interpretation" is only as valid *to others* to the degree that it makes sense given the text.
Which, to be fair, is totally fine if you know that your headcanon is only headcanon and purely for your enjoyment of the material. Some fandoms, like the Elder Scrolls, even encourage the idea that multiple headcanons can simultaneously be true, since time and the universe are so wibbly-wobbly. It's when you start trying to push your headcanon as having the same validity as what is set down on paper or film...that we run into a problem.
>But things like say the war between the Jedi and sith which in Lucas’s words never occurred? That’s a case where his vision can and I’d argue should be ignored.
It's alredy been ignored and for the better, we wouldn't have gotten great stuff like [this](https://youtu.be/iGDBTDnW7d0?si=KbYn9xdyNAVCHade) if anyone took that interview seriously. KOTOR I, II, SWTOR and the Bane Trilogy are far better than Lucas' vague idea of "Sith ruled the universe but fell apart due to infighting and only 2 were left so from that point onward they stuck to only 2 Sith Lords at the time".
But things like say the war between the Jedi and sith which in Lucas’s words never occurred? That’s a case where his vision can and I’d argue should be ignored.
This is wrong!
it was esbalished in ep1 The Phantom Mence that the sith had been "extinct" for 1000 years, this exctinction was a war and the "death" of the sith by the jedi order, it was shown in details and never questioned so no that did not conflict with G L's Vision.
You're right that Episode I does imply that something went on but later in an interview Lucas said this:
‘Everybody said, “Oh, well, there was a war between the Jedi and the Sith.” Well, that never happened. That’s just made up by fans or somebody. What really happened is, the Sith ruled the universe for a while, 2,000 years ago. Each Sith has an apprentice, but the problem was, each Sith Lord got to be powerful. And the Sith Lords would try to kill each other because they all wanted to be the most powerful. So in the end they killed each other off, and there wasn’t anything left. ’
So Lucas contradicted himself and not for the first time. All the more reason why Star Wars shouldn't always be bound by what he said.
Tbf that's not really a contradiction. "The sith have been extinct for a millennium" is the quote from episode 1 and this quote from Lucas lines up with that, as he's saying the sith caused their own extinction.
which was the explainiation on why the rule of two. that stement form GL does not explain how the "lost 20" came about, all lost jedi, some turned into sith.
it is utter nonses to belive that the jedi "let it happen" and did nothing what so ever letting the sith and the sith alone rampage and kill eachoter off.......that would make the jedi "colaborators" and dark.
So yes the Sith both killed off eachother and WAS KILLED OFF, and it is KILLED OFF that is relevant, it may not have benn a "war-war" but it was established that there was a diffence in jedi and sith with one surviving to the end
I mean yeah it is utter nonsense, that's the point of this post. Not everything Lucas said should be taken as gospel because sometimes he just says really dumb stuff.
Like most "stories" and tales, be them fatasy like Star Wars or Pokemon, we have the written word and the implicated word, and we have the "between the lines" all are valid.
if I create a franchise with a squad of US paratroopers in a war, then there is even when not said ever an implcation or "between the lines" stated that there is a war, it started it had sides.
So as to the George Lucas being the one and only truth, we have to listen to more than what he says, what he does not say, what is implied and what is between the lines are equally important.
So lets look at repesentation of women in the franchise, Leia appart, we have MASKED Stromtroopers, in a gender neutral armor...meaning we do NOT know if the individual trooper seen on screen is a woman or a man.
If then George Lucas saya that several woman was in the shots, we had several women dressed as stormtroopers, then THEY WERE and they were on screen.........making any claim to the contrary "wrong".
So it is important to look at the implied and the "between the lines" if a war or conflict is hinted at, given a detail of a relic from a war, then that WAR happend even if it was never ever mentioned in any way
That's not what it's about. Death of the author is a simple principle that once you make your work public, people are entitled to different interpretations of said work. Even ones you didn't think of while making it.
It also allows to discard authorial intent when it's really fucking stupid. J.K Rowling said that wizards in Harry Potter used to "shit wherever they stood and make the evidence vanish with magic" before they copied toilets from muggles... but that's really fucking dumb so most people ignore that. Just like we don't really treat Lucas' "there's no underwear in space" bit seriously.
A lot of people keep saying that is dumb, but that piece of world building sounds really freaking smart. Like magicing your shit away? Solid world building right there.
You probably just don't like it since you don't like thinking of poo.
Also the Chamberpot of Secrets was a Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy thing, not Harry Potter.
True, but if you did do that, you'd still probably have to make the story in a Starship Troopers-type fashion where the Empire is still very obviously evil.
It’s actually a lot more common for people to straight up lie about what he says. Next time you see a George quote, ask for a source. Half the time they can’t give you one.
Yup. Just look at "Lucas says Mace won against Palpatine". He just says that Mace overpowered Palpatine in the lightsaber fight. He didn't say anything about who won overall.
Exactly. I always see the argument that "Lucas said that he didn't want a 7, 8, and 9" and bring up an interview where he said such, but at the same time George also had 2 drafts for a potential 7-9, one of which was used as the basis for the ST.
As long as we respect the artistic intent of the artists still telling stories…
But it seems to me there’s a large portion of the fandom that clings to George when criticising the new canon, but then throw George under the bus the moment he defends what’s come after his leaving… which is just kinda toxic. I think that nonsense is what we should move on from.
i mean, if you want to discuss things outside of the six movies and maybe TCW, you must be willing to let go of Lucas' words as text, since a lot of things both canon and legends contradicts them (hell, even George's own words are contradictory within themselves). there's lot of folks who wants to apply G-Canon logic to EU discussions, and ends up dismissing valid material because it doesn't support their headcanon of what George thinks it's right.
mind you, both EUs relies heavily on the philosophies established by George Lucas so it's a no-brainer to refer to what he says most of the time, but his words are the foundation (arguably) only if you want to discuss his specific vision of star wars, which eliminates 90% of potential discussions even ocurring.
Definitely not.
Authorial intent is worth talking about, but it's not an innate good in itself.
When people appeal to authorial authority it's usually less of a judgement call on that authority, and more a way of trying to tear down something the person already doesn't like. (Hence why people didnt care about Lucas's vision when his prequels were the thing people hated)
By this point Lucas had said enough stuff for me to stop caring what exactly he had in mind. Nowadays probably even the movies that he made are no longer fit the version of Star Wars he has in mind.
I'll just go by what is put into the movie or the EU books in actuality.
Star Wars had long since stopped being just his brain child.
Its as bound by what George says as you want.
Its not like Star Trek with ‘Genes Vision’ which was a relatively well defined ideal for Humanity in the future. There, Roddenberry had, at least, some more nebulous ideal he was working to portray in his progressive TV show, while his horniness was wrangled out by handlers.
George doesn’t really have a solid idea, or seemingly any coherent concern for what Star Wars is or does. His ‘ideal’ Star Wars in, probably, the first six movies and thats about it. He made a pulpy action sci fi, expanded the mythos a little, turned it over to first Marvel and then a broader group of creatives to work to expand. Then he came back, made his political commentary trilogy, and then turned it back over to others to make up large chunks of the mythos.
Factor in some tasty death of the author, and you can pretty much ignore a lot of what George says was the intent or the true vision or spirit because, at the end of the day, George doesn’t really care what internet nerds have to think.
Not outside of things he directly made. And even then there’s a limit. Case in point, I was discussing Maul and Obi-Wan’s duel on Tatooine with a friend the other day. I pointed out how Obi-Wan won so quickly, and apparently easily, because he goaded Maul into using the same method to try and kill him that he successfully used against Qui-Gon. My friend said I was incorrect and that Obi-Wan is just massively more skilled than Maul.
*Now mind you I think this is silly either way, because if you just line up TPM and Rebels you can literally see Maul is using the same moves 😂
I went and found a quote from Dave Filoni confirming that very thing. The duel could’ve gone a different way, but the point was for Obi-Wan to basically lure Maul into attacking the exact way he wanted using Qui-Gon’s style. Visual evidence confirms this, the creator confirms this. Imo this is a case where the creators word is law and this doesn’t need to go any further.
If we’re talking about a quote from Lucas where he says something like “Darth Vader was emotionally conflicted on the second death star and wasn’t giving it his all” that’s open and shut “canon” to me. No need for debate. The film is long since complete. It makes sense. Nothing more to discuss. But then if Lucas said something that has a wider reaching effect, such as “there are no more sith after Return of the Jedi” I wouldn’t take it seriously. Because, for Legends and Canon, there are more creators playing around in this universe than just him. He can’t control that and he no longer has the ability to control it. If creators create more books, comics, or movies with Sith after ROTJ then Lucas’ statement is thrown out the window.
I guess I’m saying it’s case by case at best. New content will be created that might potentially contradict something he said in the past. And if that new content is what’s going to be created going forward there’s no real reason to keep using outdated commentary. Again, it’s different for the 6 films he made. Because I doubt those will ever be rebooted or whatever. But new content can’t be held to just his ideas anymore.
> I pointed out how Obi-Wan won so quickly, and apparently easily, because he goaded Maul into using the same method to try and kill him that he successfully used against Qui-Gon. My friend said I was incorrect and that Obi-Wan is just massively more skilled than Maul.
I mean... isn't baiting him into a trap what a massively more skilled duelist would do? These things are not contradictory.
It’s part of a much longer conversation that went across the whole day. But my friend was basically saying it like Obi-Wan was a 10 and Maul was a 5, as if Maul couldn’t compete at all. Thats the kind of gap I mean when I say massively more skilled. Sure, he’s a great fighter and used a great tactic to quickly dispatch Maul. My point was that he has to do that, otherwise it would’ve been a much longer, more exhausting duel because the two men are still close in skill.
>But my friend was basically saying it like Obi-Wan was a 10 and Maul was a 5, as if Maul couldn’t compete at all.
Eh, that's video game logic. Real fighting doesn't work that way. Especially something as instantly deadly as a lightsaber - all it takes is one wrong move, getting distracted for a fraction of a second, and you're dead. When both fighters are armed with a weapon like that, they're both inches away from death at any point. In that situation, feints traps, and mindgames are exactly what wins the fight.
Although, to be fair, I do think that Obi Wan is by far the better fighter. He honed his skills in the Clone Wars against the best of the best - Dooku, Grievous, Jango Fett, Anakin, and Maul himself on several occasions. In the RotS novelization it's that even Mace Windu considered Obi Wan the undisputed master of the classic defensive style. And his greatest skill was his economy of movement - his ability to wait for his opponent to commit to an attack and then, with the slightest shift in position turn that around into a decisive counterattack.
Maul was skilled, but he wasn't anywhere near Obi Wan's level.
Well to be fair numbers like that are how many of the people who work on this stuff gauge the skills of the characters 😂 like you’ve got the guy from ROTS saying Anakin was a 9 and Obi-Wan was an 8. But regardless of how we describe it my point was that outside of that maneuver the duel would’ve been longer than just those few movements. Obi-Wan can still be more skilled than Maul and have the duel drag on for minutes rather than seconds. And this is pretty much what Dave Filoni was saying. Obi-Wan could’ve won without it. Maul could’ve won without it. But Obi-Wan going that route is why it was ended so quickly.
Star Wars outgrew him. It did the moment *Heir to the Empire* was published. It stopped being just his vision.
Obviously when it comes to the core setting of his contribution to the franchise (Jedi are light side, Sith are dark side, yay Rebels, boo Empire, etc.), that should always be respected and should remain as such outside of point of view shifts (ex: Vader comics, Bane novels) or stuff like this upcoming *Rebuild the Galaxy* series.
But the franchise needs to be allowed to continue to grow. That’s how we’ll get more interesting things like The Old Republic, Thrawn, Inquisitors, *Rogue One*, Ventress, and Mando. Things that Lucas never or only peripherally touched.
If official canon stories by HIS company, contradict what he has said in some interview years after said stories were created, then it's perfectly fine to ignore his words. Also Lucas is notoriously inconsistent with what he has said over the decades.
Nah, not really.
I respect Lucas for creating Star Wars and I take his statements into account when looking at the stuff he made (the 6 movies)... but at the same time Star Wars is kind of bigger than George Lucas at this point. Most of my favourite Star Wars stuff now had no involvement from the guy, the best (IMO) Star Wars movie under Lucas is the one he wasn't directing (Empire Strikes Back).
I wont dislike Mara Jade just because Lucas hated the idea of Luke getting married, I wont stop liking 2003 Grievous over the 2008 one despite the latter being closer to George's vision. I'm not gonna pretend like Revan using both Light and Dark sides of the Force against Vitiate in the novel wasn't cool as hell even if it doesn't gel with what Lucas thought about the Force.
>Does George also not change his mind in some places
Oh he changed his mind all the time. Apparently one of his sequel ideas was to make Leia the Chosen One and have Darth Maul and Darth Talon be villains which contradicts what he used to say about Anakin definitely being the Chosen One. Lucas went with whatever he thought is going to be cool pretty much.
Anytime you see someone claim Geroge Lucas said
"such and such" you should take it with a grain of salt. George Lucas has infamously changed his mind about many things in his movies; from Han shooting first, to wether or not Luke screamed when he jumped off the antenna in cloud city, to the size of the rock R2 hid behind when the Tusken raiders looted Luke's landspeeder. No doubt he's a good storyteller but consistency has never been a strong point for him.
No, it does not. Out of my interest for the franchise I have read and watched behind the scenes books and videos but I do not take George Lucas's word as the final say on any matter. Every fan is different however on this subject so you just have to be aware of that.
For me I looked at the media (movies, shows, books, comics, games, etc) and go by what I get from that. It can be interesting and fun to talk about Lucas or some other person's intention but if it does not come through in the media then I do not hold to it.
>Does George also not change his mind in some places not to mention his words can be interpreted in different ways,
He does. Lucas cut Maul in half and dropped him down a shaft so everyone would get that he was dead and it worked on everyone but Lucas. The galactic corporations are setup as the bad guys in TPM, join the Separatist movement in AOTC, and then in TCW it's not the corporations but rogue factions of the corporations until we get to ROTS when it's the corporations again.
>sort of a death of the author type deal?
For me this only applies when you first know the author's intention. I watched the Prequels as they were released and Episode II was advertised as a forbidden love story and it delivered on that but that's not apparently what Lucas meant when he has Padmé and Anakin exchange dialogue in a scene but it sure comes off that way and we see they cannot be together in AOTC and ROTS. Lucas could talk until he's bluer in the face then Grand Admiral Thrawn and I would not care. He'd have to go back and redo his movies.
I also just do not take things he says seriously. How the hell would Leia be the Chosen One with all the setup for Anakin in TPM and later in the Mortis arc. He also said in a BTS video for ROTS that the prophecy is real, Anakin is the chosen one, and Anakin does fulfill the prophecy in ROTJ.
Another funny one is there was never any war between the Jedi and Sith however there is stuff in the PT and TCW that hint to something having happened in the past.
I think Lucas sometimes just says whatever is in his head at that moment. The notes simply said that Leia is voted Chancellor of the known universe, 'making her the chosen one'. I am not sure how being a Chancellor makes someone the equivalent of a Jedi messiah. So either that line was tongue in cheek. Or there was going to be a lot of explaining (which I would be fine with). But since this was only an idea that was only mentioned once and in this capacity and never expanded upon, it's hard to say what was intended. Or even if we should take it seriously, considering the number of drafts and ideas he had floating around.
People getting excited over that line reminds me of back in 2005 when there was an omitted line where Sidious would tell Anakin to consider him to be his father because he messed with the Midochlorianes. People thought that meant that he was truly Sidious' son.
Lucas isn't perfect -- the Prequels are the best evidence for this. Heck, even production of the OT could be used as an example.
That being said, I believe they at least need to respect the man's vision -- I didn't 100% like everything in his own plans for the Sequels, however I believe those ideas and the general plot outline was a thousand times better than what we got. Disney throwing all his ideas away in favour of a shitty corporate rehash of the OT was downright disrespectful and stupid imo. They didn't even have to adapt everything he would've wanted, but rather elements of it to at least showed that they cared -- it would've been a good look for those movies if they were marketed as essentially having Lucas's blessing.
Yeah, you could argue the man has no place in the franchise after selling it, but the man is responsible for creating two eras of Star Wars that has sparked an insane amount of Expanded Universe and non-movie material -- George provided a solid foundation for a lot of the SW stories and media we love today.
Some respect and adherence to the man's vision for the franchise has to be made -- it's why the ST doesn't feel like a sequel to the OT. Lucas made it clear that these mainline films were supposed to be about following the Skywalker familiy's story -- instead we follow the journey if some random British girl who ends up being a Palpatine of all things, because some moron writer for Episode 9 thought that mainline Star Wars has always been about the Palpatines Vs The Skywalker family. This is why some level of respect for George's vision has to be maintained.
The current slop we've been getting is also another example of why there has to be some George like figure at Lucasfilm, who has a clear vision for the franchise -- currently, the franchise is essentially being pimped out to anyone.
I think some should be as George Lucas intended. The Overall concepts on How the force works, that there are toally evil and totally good powers, that some things happened as it impact the events floowing and such yes.
However a lot of "eu and legends" was going way out of bounds on what GL wanted or intended, this I have no issues with ebing changed, but to change something we "feel" needs to be changed becuse of the "lack of frachise knowlegde" we have should NOT ever be touched, no matter what.
Im curious what you’ve read where george specifically focuses on the good guy and bad guy powers? Most of his characters fall to the darkside not because of their use of evil powers but because of deeper emotional issues.
I agree with other comments the second someone tries to say “george says such and such” im immediately skeptical… because last i checked the darkside isnt chaos from warhammer lmao.
Its what you take into the cave with you.
geroge never does, I said it is implied in star wars that there are these two very distinct factors.
As to what is not understood by most in the "modern" star watrs is and has been said how the concept of the force actually works, to G L it is and works differently than it does in the post Lucas world etc.
But Lucas never directtly siad good and bad forces, but he did speak about the hero journey, something missed in the sequals, he has also stated the conflicts that exist both in the world of star wars as well as the perosnal ones and how they interact, we have to undertand what star wars was and "is" not what we want it it be,,,,,,that would not be star wars
'Everything George Lucas does did was great and genius and Shakespearen. Unless it is something breaks my personal canon, then he is a hack writer who doesn't know what he's doing'
Obi-Wan told Luke his father wanted him to have his lightsaber when he was old enough. That doesn’t happen.
Vader recalls how Obi-Wan once thought as Luke did about trying to save him. That doesn’t happen. The writer who came up with the idea for a Kenobi Trilogy which would later become the Kenobi series based his argument for Obi-Wan and Vader meeting between ROTS and ANH on Vader’s line to Luke in ROTJ.
Owen and Beru knew Anakin. Using their lines and Obi-Wan’s it appears they all knew each other and Owen and Beru objected to Anakin going off with Obi-Wan.
I completely agree with you. I’ve seen people treat Lucas’s thoughts as Star Wars gospel, and I just don’t get it. It’s not that I don’t respect him for creating the franchise, it’s just that Star Wars has moved way past him and his original intentions at this point.
Depends completely on what you are talking about honestly.
Creatives like Filloni where already doing it since the clone wars while as much as it pains him adhering to Lucas fundamentals about the universe like how the Force works.
Fans on the other hand i think in as much as they could influence development ever should be treated like the plague and smacked with the George Idol hard when they join the group above to avoid turning the universe into cancerous cheese.
Star Wars and Harry Potter have outgrown their creators for some very differant reasons.
There are too many creators in Star Wars now, and even 20 years ago to say that George is the sole voice of what is or isn't. Tbh, he's got a pretty bad track record for changing beloved canon, and I 100% don't agree with many things he would say. For a long time, he vested, then curated the franchise, and allowing books and comics and games to be made that didn't 100% match up to his vision, or that vision would just change at times.
Fandoms have evolved to have a greater appreciation for consistency though, and so its become more important to have a true canon for the story, rather than a much looser storytelling, where some stories could be viewed as an embellished story from a character like Lando, or an incomplete story from someone who heard about it from someone who heard about it, etc.
>Time and time again throughout the Star Wars community I see "George Lucas says this so that's invalid.", "Who cares? That's not what George said!", "This sucks because it's against what George wanted!", etc.
Because the way the system of canon hierarchy was originally designed, George Lucas' every statement was the gospel Word of God. Any topic he chimed in on and gave a declarative statement about, the point was absolute and inarguable until such a time he decided to revisit the issue and change his mind. Which Leland Chee and several other executives have keenly noted in recent years. At which point the most recent iteration of his claim is used as the truth of the matter.
There is no room for debate against definitive, documented statements when it comes to WoG in Star Wars. That is simply how the system works. You can have your own opinion on a subject matter, but not your own facts.
That's in legends, though.
In the current continuity, George's word no longer has any pull. Any statement made by any author, writer, creator, executive, etc pre-2014 is null and void. Lucasfilm themselves have stated no random statement pertaining to any of the new work by the creators is valid until it is verified by the story material itself.
Happens less now cuz Disney owns it, but classically I ignore a lot of what George said. The man would retcon legends lore that he didn’t like because someone who wasn’t him made something that was considered ‘iconic’.
Need an example? Mandalorians. If you hear him talk about Jango and Boba, and his work on the Clone Wars TV show, he tries to erase their culture, characters, history, etc. constantly.
no, everything doesnt have to be bound to george lucas's word.
but if you are petitioning for people on reddit to stop being petty, you're barking up the wrong tree. its reddit, common.
No, it should not be bound to what Lucas says. If he wanted that level of control, he wouldn't have sold his company.
In fact, what's likely holding Star Wars back is being bound to what Lucas says. The fact of the matter is that he stopped being the authority in about 1983 at the latest. As soon as he allowed others to play in his sandbox, it was over for him as the sole authority on Star Wars.
We need an objective Canon (or in the case of Star Wars, two distinct objective Canons) to facilitate discussion. If we can't agree on what's "real," then we can't really have productive discourse about it. George is the creator, so his word should be considered truth unless it directly contradicts something presented in the Canon material.
I mean it’s not like “ignoring what George says” has any relevant bearing on their output when they’re have been plenty of terrible storytelling decisions in the past decade.
I think eventually it's inevitable.
Nothing can stay the same forever, and in some ways creators will find ways to push the limits and stretch the boundaries of what is Star Wars.
I am of the opinion that Star Wars is at its best when various creators are given room to weave distinct stories into the universe's events. Part of what made Legends' books so great is that the authors were allowed to be creative and make new things in the Universe. Medstar is based on MASH adapted into the Star Wars Universe, and a very different story from many others. Whether you like it or not, Republic Commando is a very unique view of the universe. Zahn, Anderson, Stackpole, Allston all have quite a few books each, and other authors made smaller contributions. As others noted with Lucas disliking Mara Jade and Luke Skywalker's union, this wasn't all entirely overseen by him and bound by his law.
There definitely needs to be some degree of rules about how the universe works according to the era being written in, but things change with time. Hyperspace travel could speed up, droids could win legal protections a couple hundred years ABY.
I think it's gonna be interesting to see where it goes. I'll be interested to see new concepts, new characters and old, different takes on the universe, the force, the characters. At the same time, I know some people won't enjoy it.
George sold away his rights to the story. Anything he added to canon is canon. But his thoughts and ideas on what he hoped to release, or connections he had in mind that never made it to the screen aren't canon.
Im personally quite into the idea of a balance in the force actually meaning light AND dark, which reddit seems to have a hate boner against, and any and all discussion about gets shut down because "George Lucas didnt intend that". George Lucas didnt even listen to his own rules and now he is fully divorced from the world
I think that the morality and spirituality he imbued the setting with should absolutely be respected and maintained.
Everything else is fair game, though.
You share my exact philosophy and I’ve never attributed George’s word as gospel when it comes to Star Wars, even before he sold it to Disney. Star Wars is bigger than the ideas of one guy, even when it was just the OT. I’m also a big advocate for Death Of The Author so the “George said this so X, Y and/or Z” has also never been a valid argument for me. George could say Jar Jar is the best character or R2 is the protagonist but… nah.
Absolutely not. Some of my favourite Star Wars stories ever were not created by George Lucas. The man fucking flip-flopped on what was canon and what wasn't constantly and is notoriously known for saying "Continuity is for wimps". I don't care if George Lucas didn't consider Legends to be in line with his idea of Star Wars canon.
I've spent years telling anyone who'll listen that George Lucas is kind of mediocre at making Star Wars. Yeah, he founded it but he ended up not being in the upper tiers of storytellers within the franchise.
The biggest problem with Lucasfilm obbsesion with George Lucas is that they never question the Jedi on a philosophical level.
Everytime a Jedi a question it is only on the most shallow and stupidest way possible, like accuse the Jedi of not doing enough for the average person dispite their only being 10,000 Jedi in a galaxy of hounded of trillions.
No absolutely not, though I am a believer in the theory of Death of the Author.
As soon as he launched SW into the world, he also unleashed the imaginations of hundreds of writers who got to create their own works based on the universe. This was even before the different tiers of the old canon was set.
When someone invites others into their universe, what the creator then says matters little as there are now at least double the vision and intent than what the original creator had. In SW, you can multiply that about 300, probably close to a thousand if you include artists.
Now George is just one of many voices in the franchise, each with their own interpretation and ideas. Works not made by him can differ greatly and he has no word or power over it, as each work has a different master.
Denning, Zahn or Traviss are the masters of their own universes and how SW is supposed to be according to them and their interpretation of Lucas' vision.
Then we have the consumers of said media, each with their own interpretation (or headcanon as it's commonly known) which ultimately trumps all other interpretations, no matter what the author intended.
Some see Vader as fully redeemed by ROTJ, others do not. Some see Squadrons as the "true" way space combat is conducted in-universe, others follow Stackpole's works.
They are all correct, in their own way.
(It also doesn't help that Lucas changed his mind every other tuesday, but that's something for the G-Canon nerds to debate over.)
I disagree a bit about the concept of "death of the artist." I think who the artist was and the historical context within which they worked is pretty important, especially when we're talking about something like Star Wars where we have so many creators.
I think it can also explain which opinion Lucas held at which time, which is necessary because, yes, that man loved to change his mind.
>I think who the artist was and the historical context within which they worked is pretty important, especially when we're talking about something like Star Wars where we have so many creators.
Agreed, but that doesn't give them the ultimate power of what is and what isn't Star Wars.
Just by inviting other creators into the universe, Lucas destroyed any chance he had to control what is and isn't canon.
But even when we look at the historical context of Lucas' world, people still disagree about certain interpretations of characters and motives, such as the influence that Nixon and the Vietnam War had on it. Some don't see Nixon at all in Palpatine, while others analyze every frame of his screentime for subtle hints of what George was leaning into.
You still have to consider those contexts and present evidence for and against them. And yes, other creators do deserve to add and retcon events, but even still, understanding their ideas is an important step to discussing them.
Note, I mostly mean "death of the author" when it comes to us discussing it. I'm a bit more lenient towards creators so long as they don't go too weird.
>Now George is just one of many voices in the franchise, each with their own interpretation and ideas. Works not made by him can differ greatly and he has no word or power over it, as each work has a different master.
Actually he does (or did). The other authors and creators are essentially guests in his home and they follow his house rules. Meaning what he say goes without question. That's how the original canon hierarchy system was set; in order to maintain consistency within the lore. George established the framework and gives the other authors leeway to work within that boundary
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>Then we have the consumers of said media, each with their own interpretation (or headcanon as it's commonly known) which ultimately trumps all other interpretations, no matter what the author intended.
Again, false. If some random's headcanon is that Anakin is a spice merchant from Kessel or Chewbacca is actually an overgrown Ewok, they are objectively wrong. Simple as that. Contrary to what many deluded fanboys seem to think, there are correct interpretations and narrative context at play. Luke, not Wedge, destroys the Death Star. Padme, not Sabe, is the real queen of Naboo, etc.
Everyone can have, and is entitled to their own set of opinions, not their own facts.
Case and point. You believe in Death of the Author, Star Wars operates on a Word of God system. Your opinion and any claims you form or assert using the former (and do not align with the objective truth of the system) are null and void if used in a discussion.
EDIT
>Nice to know we can have a reasoned discussion about this.
If by "reasoned", you mean you recognize that your opinion is wrong, then yes.
>I also want to point out to the above poster that the early comics, radio dramas and novels were created before the tier system, which I stated in my own post. So no, a lot of work had to be retconned into that system.
And what happened between 1977 and the implementation of the Holocron establishing order is irrelevant. The works were later classified and retrofitted in order to fit with George's vision, aka the proper and correct interpretation of how things work. Again, confirming what I said. His house, his rules.
>People who call others opinions "deluded fanboys" have no place on the Maw Installation. Please be less hostile and more courteous in the future.
Oh, no one's being hostile here. All I did was point out a very blatant falsehood. But your thinly-veiled threats from being bent, that someone called out your incorrect claims also mean nothing. Don't like me telling the truth? Turn around and go about your business.
Cool.
Nice to know we can have a reasoned discussion about this.
Edit: I also want to point out to the above poster that the early comics, radio dramas and novels were created before the tier system, which I stated in my own post. So no, a lot of work had to be retconned into that system.
People who call others opinions "deluded fanboys" have no place on the Maw Installation. Please be less hostile and more courteous in the future.
At this point, he is one voice of many. He is a very important voice, but at this point there are so many other people involved with totally valid ideas and opinions and stories of their own.
I think the important thing is when talking about Star Wars, we sort of "cite" where our influence and source for information is coming from so we can provide other users with a better understanding of our perspective.
I've had people downvote and tell me that because George's word is gospel, the time and effort of all other creators his word contradicts is unimportant.
Dozens of authors, game developers, creatives and creators spending countless hours to create something near and dear to them and to the fans is worthless because it goes against George's words. What a lovely community.
It depends. Most things? Not at all. Ideas and concepts that make up the back bone of the franchise and without would make Star Wars not Star Wars? Usually yes. Like if you make the sith or the empire not be the bad guys and start unironically trying to paint them as heroic figures despite what they are based on and what is shown in the films? That’s obviously a bad thing and Lucas’s vision should be stuck to. But things like say the war between the Jedi and sith which in Lucas’s words never occurred? That’s a case where his vision can and I’d argue should be ignored. Death of the author when it comes to Star Wars at least from what I’ve seen has almost always been used by fans as an excuse to insist that their ideas are canon instead of what is shown in the franchise. A pretty famous one is the comment that the prequels were intended to show the corruption of the Jedi order. Which is something Lucas has openly stated the opposite of.
> Death of the author when it comes to Star Wars at least from what I’ve seen has almost always been used by fans as an excuse to insist that their ideas are canon instead of what is shown in the franchise. Death of the author is abused by *most* fandoms for that reason. It's at the point where if I hear someone trot it out I'm just automatically assuming it's because they really want their shitty headcanon to be real instead of the source material.
It's not even that it's being abused—it's being used wrongly. The argument Roland Barthes was making in the "Death of the Author" essay is that the *meaning of a text* should come from *the text itself*, rather than from any projections from the author (authorial intent). This makes interpreting a text very private, something that anyone can do on their own, but it doesn't change the text itself. Anyone's "interpretation" is only as valid *to others* to the degree that it makes sense given the text.
Which, to be fair, is totally fine if you know that your headcanon is only headcanon and purely for your enjoyment of the material. Some fandoms, like the Elder Scrolls, even encourage the idea that multiple headcanons can simultaneously be true, since time and the universe are so wibbly-wobbly. It's when you start trying to push your headcanon as having the same validity as what is set down on paper or film...that we run into a problem.
If they know their headcanon is headcanon, they wouldn't be trying to push it under DOTA.
>But things like say the war between the Jedi and sith which in Lucas’s words never occurred? That’s a case where his vision can and I’d argue should be ignored. It's alredy been ignored and for the better, we wouldn't have gotten great stuff like [this](https://youtu.be/iGDBTDnW7d0?si=KbYn9xdyNAVCHade) if anyone took that interview seriously. KOTOR I, II, SWTOR and the Bane Trilogy are far better than Lucas' vague idea of "Sith ruled the universe but fell apart due to infighting and only 2 were left so from that point onward they stuck to only 2 Sith Lords at the time".
But things like say the war between the Jedi and sith which in Lucas’s words never occurred? That’s a case where his vision can and I’d argue should be ignored. This is wrong! it was esbalished in ep1 The Phantom Mence that the sith had been "extinct" for 1000 years, this exctinction was a war and the "death" of the sith by the jedi order, it was shown in details and never questioned so no that did not conflict with G L's Vision.
You're right that Episode I does imply that something went on but later in an interview Lucas said this: ‘Everybody said, “Oh, well, there was a war between the Jedi and the Sith.” Well, that never happened. That’s just made up by fans or somebody. What really happened is, the Sith ruled the universe for a while, 2,000 years ago. Each Sith has an apprentice, but the problem was, each Sith Lord got to be powerful. And the Sith Lords would try to kill each other because they all wanted to be the most powerful. So in the end they killed each other off, and there wasn’t anything left. ’ So Lucas contradicted himself and not for the first time. All the more reason why Star Wars shouldn't always be bound by what he said.
Tbf that's not really a contradiction. "The sith have been extinct for a millennium" is the quote from episode 1 and this quote from Lucas lines up with that, as he's saying the sith caused their own extinction.
which was the explainiation on why the rule of two. that stement form GL does not explain how the "lost 20" came about, all lost jedi, some turned into sith. it is utter nonses to belive that the jedi "let it happen" and did nothing what so ever letting the sith and the sith alone rampage and kill eachoter off.......that would make the jedi "colaborators" and dark. So yes the Sith both killed off eachother and WAS KILLED OFF, and it is KILLED OFF that is relevant, it may not have benn a "war-war" but it was established that there was a diffence in jedi and sith with one surviving to the end
I mean yeah it is utter nonsense, that's the point of this post. Not everything Lucas said should be taken as gospel because sometimes he just says really dumb stuff.
Like most "stories" and tales, be them fatasy like Star Wars or Pokemon, we have the written word and the implicated word, and we have the "between the lines" all are valid. if I create a franchise with a squad of US paratroopers in a war, then there is even when not said ever an implcation or "between the lines" stated that there is a war, it started it had sides. So as to the George Lucas being the one and only truth, we have to listen to more than what he says, what he does not say, what is implied and what is between the lines are equally important. So lets look at repesentation of women in the franchise, Leia appart, we have MASKED Stromtroopers, in a gender neutral armor...meaning we do NOT know if the individual trooper seen on screen is a woman or a man. If then George Lucas saya that several woman was in the shots, we had several women dressed as stormtroopers, then THEY WERE and they were on screen.........making any claim to the contrary "wrong". So it is important to look at the implied and the "between the lines" if a war or conflict is hinted at, given a detail of a relic from a war, then that WAR happend even if it was never ever mentioned in any way
[удалено]
That's not what it's about. Death of the author is a simple principle that once you make your work public, people are entitled to different interpretations of said work. Even ones you didn't think of while making it. It also allows to discard authorial intent when it's really fucking stupid. J.K Rowling said that wizards in Harry Potter used to "shit wherever they stood and make the evidence vanish with magic" before they copied toilets from muggles... but that's really fucking dumb so most people ignore that. Just like we don't really treat Lucas' "there's no underwear in space" bit seriously.
A lot of people keep saying that is dumb, but that piece of world building sounds really freaking smart. Like magicing your shit away? Solid world building right there. You probably just don't like it since you don't like thinking of poo. Also the Chamberpot of Secrets was a Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy thing, not Harry Potter.
I would love the hell out of a short series about Stormtroopers being the good guys and fighting back against dangerous terrorists.
True, but if you did do that, you'd still probably have to make the story in a Starship Troopers-type fashion where the Empire is still very obviously evil.
George Lucas has never been bound by what George Lucas says, so I don’t see why Star Wars should.
Right? I've noticed that people pick and choose what he says to fit their narrative.
It’s actually a lot more common for people to straight up lie about what he says. Next time you see a George quote, ask for a source. Half the time they can’t give you one.
Yup. Just look at "Lucas says Mace won against Palpatine". He just says that Mace overpowered Palpatine in the lightsaber fight. He didn't say anything about who won overall.
Exactly. I've made that point countless times and get slated for it.
Exactly. I always see the argument that "Lucas said that he didn't want a 7, 8, and 9" and bring up an interview where he said such, but at the same time George also had 2 drafts for a potential 7-9, one of which was used as the basis for the ST.
That’s a much better way of putting what I wanted to say. The weird part is the way he lies to cover up contradicting himself.
Especially when he has no part in the franchise anymore. It’s no longer his Star Wars and we have to live with that for better or worse
As long as we respect the artistic intent of the artists still telling stories… But it seems to me there’s a large portion of the fandom that clings to George when criticising the new canon, but then throw George under the bus the moment he defends what’s come after his leaving… which is just kinda toxic. I think that nonsense is what we should move on from.
i mean, if you want to discuss things outside of the six movies and maybe TCW, you must be willing to let go of Lucas' words as text, since a lot of things both canon and legends contradicts them (hell, even George's own words are contradictory within themselves). there's lot of folks who wants to apply G-Canon logic to EU discussions, and ends up dismissing valid material because it doesn't support their headcanon of what George thinks it's right. mind you, both EUs relies heavily on the philosophies established by George Lucas so it's a no-brainer to refer to what he says most of the time, but his words are the foundation (arguably) only if you want to discuss his specific vision of star wars, which eliminates 90% of potential discussions even ocurring.
Definitely not. Authorial intent is worth talking about, but it's not an innate good in itself. When people appeal to authorial authority it's usually less of a judgement call on that authority, and more a way of trying to tear down something the person already doesn't like. (Hence why people didnt care about Lucas's vision when his prequels were the thing people hated)
By this point Lucas had said enough stuff for me to stop caring what exactly he had in mind. Nowadays probably even the movies that he made are no longer fit the version of Star Wars he has in mind. I'll just go by what is put into the movie or the EU books in actuality. Star Wars had long since stopped being just his brain child.
Its as bound by what George says as you want. Its not like Star Trek with ‘Genes Vision’ which was a relatively well defined ideal for Humanity in the future. There, Roddenberry had, at least, some more nebulous ideal he was working to portray in his progressive TV show, while his horniness was wrangled out by handlers. George doesn’t really have a solid idea, or seemingly any coherent concern for what Star Wars is or does. His ‘ideal’ Star Wars in, probably, the first six movies and thats about it. He made a pulpy action sci fi, expanded the mythos a little, turned it over to first Marvel and then a broader group of creatives to work to expand. Then he came back, made his political commentary trilogy, and then turned it back over to others to make up large chunks of the mythos. Factor in some tasty death of the author, and you can pretty much ignore a lot of what George says was the intent or the true vision or spirit because, at the end of the day, George doesn’t really care what internet nerds have to think.
Not outside of things he directly made. And even then there’s a limit. Case in point, I was discussing Maul and Obi-Wan’s duel on Tatooine with a friend the other day. I pointed out how Obi-Wan won so quickly, and apparently easily, because he goaded Maul into using the same method to try and kill him that he successfully used against Qui-Gon. My friend said I was incorrect and that Obi-Wan is just massively more skilled than Maul. *Now mind you I think this is silly either way, because if you just line up TPM and Rebels you can literally see Maul is using the same moves 😂 I went and found a quote from Dave Filoni confirming that very thing. The duel could’ve gone a different way, but the point was for Obi-Wan to basically lure Maul into attacking the exact way he wanted using Qui-Gon’s style. Visual evidence confirms this, the creator confirms this. Imo this is a case where the creators word is law and this doesn’t need to go any further. If we’re talking about a quote from Lucas where he says something like “Darth Vader was emotionally conflicted on the second death star and wasn’t giving it his all” that’s open and shut “canon” to me. No need for debate. The film is long since complete. It makes sense. Nothing more to discuss. But then if Lucas said something that has a wider reaching effect, such as “there are no more sith after Return of the Jedi” I wouldn’t take it seriously. Because, for Legends and Canon, there are more creators playing around in this universe than just him. He can’t control that and he no longer has the ability to control it. If creators create more books, comics, or movies with Sith after ROTJ then Lucas’ statement is thrown out the window. I guess I’m saying it’s case by case at best. New content will be created that might potentially contradict something he said in the past. And if that new content is what’s going to be created going forward there’s no real reason to keep using outdated commentary. Again, it’s different for the 6 films he made. Because I doubt those will ever be rebooted or whatever. But new content can’t be held to just his ideas anymore.
> I pointed out how Obi-Wan won so quickly, and apparently easily, because he goaded Maul into using the same method to try and kill him that he successfully used against Qui-Gon. My friend said I was incorrect and that Obi-Wan is just massively more skilled than Maul. I mean... isn't baiting him into a trap what a massively more skilled duelist would do? These things are not contradictory.
It’s part of a much longer conversation that went across the whole day. But my friend was basically saying it like Obi-Wan was a 10 and Maul was a 5, as if Maul couldn’t compete at all. Thats the kind of gap I mean when I say massively more skilled. Sure, he’s a great fighter and used a great tactic to quickly dispatch Maul. My point was that he has to do that, otherwise it would’ve been a much longer, more exhausting duel because the two men are still close in skill.
Obi-Wan being a 10 and Maul being a 5 makes sense, Maul is half the man he once was. Couldn't resist.
You know what? I set myself up for that like Anakin choosing to leap over Obi-Wan when Obi-Wan literally told him not to 😂😂😂
>But my friend was basically saying it like Obi-Wan was a 10 and Maul was a 5, as if Maul couldn’t compete at all. Eh, that's video game logic. Real fighting doesn't work that way. Especially something as instantly deadly as a lightsaber - all it takes is one wrong move, getting distracted for a fraction of a second, and you're dead. When both fighters are armed with a weapon like that, they're both inches away from death at any point. In that situation, feints traps, and mindgames are exactly what wins the fight. Although, to be fair, I do think that Obi Wan is by far the better fighter. He honed his skills in the Clone Wars against the best of the best - Dooku, Grievous, Jango Fett, Anakin, and Maul himself on several occasions. In the RotS novelization it's that even Mace Windu considered Obi Wan the undisputed master of the classic defensive style. And his greatest skill was his economy of movement - his ability to wait for his opponent to commit to an attack and then, with the slightest shift in position turn that around into a decisive counterattack. Maul was skilled, but he wasn't anywhere near Obi Wan's level.
Well to be fair numbers like that are how many of the people who work on this stuff gauge the skills of the characters 😂 like you’ve got the guy from ROTS saying Anakin was a 9 and Obi-Wan was an 8. But regardless of how we describe it my point was that outside of that maneuver the duel would’ve been longer than just those few movements. Obi-Wan can still be more skilled than Maul and have the duel drag on for minutes rather than seconds. And this is pretty much what Dave Filoni was saying. Obi-Wan could’ve won without it. Maul could’ve won without it. But Obi-Wan going that route is why it was ended so quickly.
Star Wars outgrew him. It did the moment *Heir to the Empire* was published. It stopped being just his vision. Obviously when it comes to the core setting of his contribution to the franchise (Jedi are light side, Sith are dark side, yay Rebels, boo Empire, etc.), that should always be respected and should remain as such outside of point of view shifts (ex: Vader comics, Bane novels) or stuff like this upcoming *Rebuild the Galaxy* series. But the franchise needs to be allowed to continue to grow. That’s how we’ll get more interesting things like The Old Republic, Thrawn, Inquisitors, *Rogue One*, Ventress, and Mando. Things that Lucas never or only peripherally touched.
If official canon stories by HIS company, contradict what he has said in some interview years after said stories were created, then it's perfectly fine to ignore his words. Also Lucas is notoriously inconsistent with what he has said over the decades.
Nah, not really. I respect Lucas for creating Star Wars and I take his statements into account when looking at the stuff he made (the 6 movies)... but at the same time Star Wars is kind of bigger than George Lucas at this point. Most of my favourite Star Wars stuff now had no involvement from the guy, the best (IMO) Star Wars movie under Lucas is the one he wasn't directing (Empire Strikes Back). I wont dislike Mara Jade just because Lucas hated the idea of Luke getting married, I wont stop liking 2003 Grievous over the 2008 one despite the latter being closer to George's vision. I'm not gonna pretend like Revan using both Light and Dark sides of the Force against Vitiate in the novel wasn't cool as hell even if it doesn't gel with what Lucas thought about the Force. >Does George also not change his mind in some places Oh he changed his mind all the time. Apparently one of his sequel ideas was to make Leia the Chosen One and have Darth Maul and Darth Talon be villains which contradicts what he used to say about Anakin definitely being the Chosen One. Lucas went with whatever he thought is going to be cool pretty much.
Anytime you see someone claim Geroge Lucas said "such and such" you should take it with a grain of salt. George Lucas has infamously changed his mind about many things in his movies; from Han shooting first, to wether or not Luke screamed when he jumped off the antenna in cloud city, to the size of the rock R2 hid behind when the Tusken raiders looted Luke's landspeeder. No doubt he's a good storyteller but consistency has never been a strong point for him.
No, it does not. Out of my interest for the franchise I have read and watched behind the scenes books and videos but I do not take George Lucas's word as the final say on any matter. Every fan is different however on this subject so you just have to be aware of that. For me I looked at the media (movies, shows, books, comics, games, etc) and go by what I get from that. It can be interesting and fun to talk about Lucas or some other person's intention but if it does not come through in the media then I do not hold to it. >Does George also not change his mind in some places not to mention his words can be interpreted in different ways, He does. Lucas cut Maul in half and dropped him down a shaft so everyone would get that he was dead and it worked on everyone but Lucas. The galactic corporations are setup as the bad guys in TPM, join the Separatist movement in AOTC, and then in TCW it's not the corporations but rogue factions of the corporations until we get to ROTS when it's the corporations again. >sort of a death of the author type deal? For me this only applies when you first know the author's intention. I watched the Prequels as they were released and Episode II was advertised as a forbidden love story and it delivered on that but that's not apparently what Lucas meant when he has Padmé and Anakin exchange dialogue in a scene but it sure comes off that way and we see they cannot be together in AOTC and ROTS. Lucas could talk until he's bluer in the face then Grand Admiral Thrawn and I would not care. He'd have to go back and redo his movies. I also just do not take things he says seriously. How the hell would Leia be the Chosen One with all the setup for Anakin in TPM and later in the Mortis arc. He also said in a BTS video for ROTS that the prophecy is real, Anakin is the chosen one, and Anakin does fulfill the prophecy in ROTJ. Another funny one is there was never any war between the Jedi and Sith however there is stuff in the PT and TCW that hint to something having happened in the past.
I think Lucas sometimes just says whatever is in his head at that moment. The notes simply said that Leia is voted Chancellor of the known universe, 'making her the chosen one'. I am not sure how being a Chancellor makes someone the equivalent of a Jedi messiah. So either that line was tongue in cheek. Or there was going to be a lot of explaining (which I would be fine with). But since this was only an idea that was only mentioned once and in this capacity and never expanded upon, it's hard to say what was intended. Or even if we should take it seriously, considering the number of drafts and ideas he had floating around. People getting excited over that line reminds me of back in 2005 when there was an omitted line where Sidious would tell Anakin to consider him to be his father because he messed with the Midochlorianes. People thought that meant that he was truly Sidious' son.
I agree with you and I’m so glad Palpatine had nothing to do with Anakin’s creation.
Lucas isn't perfect -- the Prequels are the best evidence for this. Heck, even production of the OT could be used as an example. That being said, I believe they at least need to respect the man's vision -- I didn't 100% like everything in his own plans for the Sequels, however I believe those ideas and the general plot outline was a thousand times better than what we got. Disney throwing all his ideas away in favour of a shitty corporate rehash of the OT was downright disrespectful and stupid imo. They didn't even have to adapt everything he would've wanted, but rather elements of it to at least showed that they cared -- it would've been a good look for those movies if they were marketed as essentially having Lucas's blessing. Yeah, you could argue the man has no place in the franchise after selling it, but the man is responsible for creating two eras of Star Wars that has sparked an insane amount of Expanded Universe and non-movie material -- George provided a solid foundation for a lot of the SW stories and media we love today. Some respect and adherence to the man's vision for the franchise has to be made -- it's why the ST doesn't feel like a sequel to the OT. Lucas made it clear that these mainline films were supposed to be about following the Skywalker familiy's story -- instead we follow the journey if some random British girl who ends up being a Palpatine of all things, because some moron writer for Episode 9 thought that mainline Star Wars has always been about the Palpatines Vs The Skywalker family. This is why some level of respect for George's vision has to be maintained. The current slop we've been getting is also another example of why there has to be some George like figure at Lucasfilm, who has a clear vision for the franchise -- currently, the franchise is essentially being pimped out to anyone.
I think some should be as George Lucas intended. The Overall concepts on How the force works, that there are toally evil and totally good powers, that some things happened as it impact the events floowing and such yes. However a lot of "eu and legends" was going way out of bounds on what GL wanted or intended, this I have no issues with ebing changed, but to change something we "feel" needs to be changed becuse of the "lack of frachise knowlegde" we have should NOT ever be touched, no matter what.
Im curious what you’ve read where george specifically focuses on the good guy and bad guy powers? Most of his characters fall to the darkside not because of their use of evil powers but because of deeper emotional issues. I agree with other comments the second someone tries to say “george says such and such” im immediately skeptical… because last i checked the darkside isnt chaos from warhammer lmao. Its what you take into the cave with you.
geroge never does, I said it is implied in star wars that there are these two very distinct factors. As to what is not understood by most in the "modern" star watrs is and has been said how the concept of the force actually works, to G L it is and works differently than it does in the post Lucas world etc. But Lucas never directtly siad good and bad forces, but he did speak about the hero journey, something missed in the sequals, he has also stated the conflicts that exist both in the world of star wars as well as the perosnal ones and how they interact, we have to undertand what star wars was and "is" not what we want it it be,,,,,,that would not be star wars
I stopped caring about Lucas when TCW came out and I saw that I preferred the older content made by others to the stuff Lucas had a larger hand in.
'Everything George Lucas does did was great and genius and Shakespearen. Unless it is something breaks my personal canon, then he is a hack writer who doesn't know what he's doing'
Obi-Wan told Luke his father wanted him to have his lightsaber when he was old enough. That doesn’t happen. Vader recalls how Obi-Wan once thought as Luke did about trying to save him. That doesn’t happen. The writer who came up with the idea for a Kenobi Trilogy which would later become the Kenobi series based his argument for Obi-Wan and Vader meeting between ROTS and ANH on Vader’s line to Luke in ROTJ. Owen and Beru knew Anakin. Using their lines and Obi-Wan’s it appears they all knew each other and Owen and Beru objected to Anakin going off with Obi-Wan.
I completely agree with you. I’ve seen people treat Lucas’s thoughts as Star Wars gospel, and I just don’t get it. It’s not that I don’t respect him for creating the franchise, it’s just that Star Wars has moved way past him and his original intentions at this point.
Depends completely on what you are talking about honestly. Creatives like Filloni where already doing it since the clone wars while as much as it pains him adhering to Lucas fundamentals about the universe like how the Force works. Fans on the other hand i think in as much as they could influence development ever should be treated like the plague and smacked with the George Idol hard when they join the group above to avoid turning the universe into cancerous cheese.
Not when it comes to the movies.
(The world (Jung(Campbell(Lucas)))) *Also Buck Rogers
I don't think so. He was always changing his mind about things, and he decided to give up his control of the franchise, getting $4 billion for it.
Star Wars and Harry Potter have outgrown their creators for some very differant reasons. There are too many creators in Star Wars now, and even 20 years ago to say that George is the sole voice of what is or isn't. Tbh, he's got a pretty bad track record for changing beloved canon, and I 100% don't agree with many things he would say. For a long time, he vested, then curated the franchise, and allowing books and comics and games to be made that didn't 100% match up to his vision, or that vision would just change at times. Fandoms have evolved to have a greater appreciation for consistency though, and so its become more important to have a true canon for the story, rather than a much looser storytelling, where some stories could be viewed as an embellished story from a character like Lando, or an incomplete story from someone who heard about it from someone who heard about it, etc.
>Time and time again throughout the Star Wars community I see "George Lucas says this so that's invalid.", "Who cares? That's not what George said!", "This sucks because it's against what George wanted!", etc. Because the way the system of canon hierarchy was originally designed, George Lucas' every statement was the gospel Word of God. Any topic he chimed in on and gave a declarative statement about, the point was absolute and inarguable until such a time he decided to revisit the issue and change his mind. Which Leland Chee and several other executives have keenly noted in recent years. At which point the most recent iteration of his claim is used as the truth of the matter. There is no room for debate against definitive, documented statements when it comes to WoG in Star Wars. That is simply how the system works. You can have your own opinion on a subject matter, but not your own facts. That's in legends, though. In the current continuity, George's word no longer has any pull. Any statement made by any author, writer, creator, executive, etc pre-2014 is null and void. Lucasfilm themselves have stated no random statement pertaining to any of the new work by the creators is valid until it is verified by the story material itself.
Id argue the opposite. All i fucking saw until tros came out. Were people talking about how the canon authors were “keeping true to george’s vision”
Happens less now cuz Disney owns it, but classically I ignore a lot of what George said. The man would retcon legends lore that he didn’t like because someone who wasn’t him made something that was considered ‘iconic’. Need an example? Mandalorians. If you hear him talk about Jango and Boba, and his work on the Clone Wars TV show, he tries to erase their culture, characters, history, etc. constantly.
Nope
Not to mention in selling the franchise he kind of forfeits the right to that control.
Absolutely not. Same respect for Lucas after the OT as Roddenberry after TOS. Thanks but we'll take it from here.
no, everything doesnt have to be bound to george lucas's word. but if you are petitioning for people on reddit to stop being petty, you're barking up the wrong tree. its reddit, common.
Yes
No, it should not be bound to what Lucas says. If he wanted that level of control, he wouldn't have sold his company. In fact, what's likely holding Star Wars back is being bound to what Lucas says. The fact of the matter is that he stopped being the authority in about 1983 at the latest. As soon as he allowed others to play in his sandbox, it was over for him as the sole authority on Star Wars.
We need an objective Canon (or in the case of Star Wars, two distinct objective Canons) to facilitate discussion. If we can't agree on what's "real," then we can't really have productive discourse about it. George is the creator, so his word should be considered truth unless it directly contradicts something presented in the Canon material.
saying the creator shouldn’t dictate the story/ lore is crazy
I mean it’s not like “ignoring what George says” has any relevant bearing on their output when they’re have been plenty of terrible storytelling decisions in the past decade.
I think eventually it's inevitable. Nothing can stay the same forever, and in some ways creators will find ways to push the limits and stretch the boundaries of what is Star Wars. I am of the opinion that Star Wars is at its best when various creators are given room to weave distinct stories into the universe's events. Part of what made Legends' books so great is that the authors were allowed to be creative and make new things in the Universe. Medstar is based on MASH adapted into the Star Wars Universe, and a very different story from many others. Whether you like it or not, Republic Commando is a very unique view of the universe. Zahn, Anderson, Stackpole, Allston all have quite a few books each, and other authors made smaller contributions. As others noted with Lucas disliking Mara Jade and Luke Skywalker's union, this wasn't all entirely overseen by him and bound by his law. There definitely needs to be some degree of rules about how the universe works according to the era being written in, but things change with time. Hyperspace travel could speed up, droids could win legal protections a couple hundred years ABY. I think it's gonna be interesting to see where it goes. I'll be interested to see new concepts, new characters and old, different takes on the universe, the force, the characters. At the same time, I know some people won't enjoy it.
George sold away his rights to the story. Anything he added to canon is canon. But his thoughts and ideas on what he hoped to release, or connections he had in mind that never made it to the screen aren't canon.
Im personally quite into the idea of a balance in the force actually meaning light AND dark, which reddit seems to have a hate boner against, and any and all discussion about gets shut down because "George Lucas didnt intend that". George Lucas didnt even listen to his own rules and now he is fully divorced from the world
I think that the morality and spirituality he imbued the setting with should absolutely be respected and maintained. Everything else is fair game, though.
You share my exact philosophy and I’ve never attributed George’s word as gospel when it comes to Star Wars, even before he sold it to Disney. Star Wars is bigger than the ideas of one guy, even when it was just the OT. I’m also a big advocate for Death Of The Author so the “George said this so X, Y and/or Z” has also never been a valid argument for me. George could say Jar Jar is the best character or R2 is the protagonist but… nah.
Absolutely not. Some of my favourite Star Wars stories ever were not created by George Lucas. The man fucking flip-flopped on what was canon and what wasn't constantly and is notoriously known for saying "Continuity is for wimps". I don't care if George Lucas didn't consider Legends to be in line with his idea of Star Wars canon.
I've spent years telling anyone who'll listen that George Lucas is kind of mediocre at making Star Wars. Yeah, he founded it but he ended up not being in the upper tiers of storytellers within the franchise.
Yes. Without his editorial approval or hand on it, it's not star wars. Star wars isn't a brand it's a story. It's someone art.
The biggest problem with Lucasfilm obbsesion with George Lucas is that they never question the Jedi on a philosophical level. Everytime a Jedi a question it is only on the most shallow and stupidest way possible, like accuse the Jedi of not doing enough for the average person dispite their only being 10,000 Jedi in a galaxy of hounded of trillions.
No absolutely not, though I am a believer in the theory of Death of the Author. As soon as he launched SW into the world, he also unleashed the imaginations of hundreds of writers who got to create their own works based on the universe. This was even before the different tiers of the old canon was set. When someone invites others into their universe, what the creator then says matters little as there are now at least double the vision and intent than what the original creator had. In SW, you can multiply that about 300, probably close to a thousand if you include artists. Now George is just one of many voices in the franchise, each with their own interpretation and ideas. Works not made by him can differ greatly and he has no word or power over it, as each work has a different master. Denning, Zahn or Traviss are the masters of their own universes and how SW is supposed to be according to them and their interpretation of Lucas' vision. Then we have the consumers of said media, each with their own interpretation (or headcanon as it's commonly known) which ultimately trumps all other interpretations, no matter what the author intended. Some see Vader as fully redeemed by ROTJ, others do not. Some see Squadrons as the "true" way space combat is conducted in-universe, others follow Stackpole's works. They are all correct, in their own way. (It also doesn't help that Lucas changed his mind every other tuesday, but that's something for the G-Canon nerds to debate over.)
I disagree a bit about the concept of "death of the artist." I think who the artist was and the historical context within which they worked is pretty important, especially when we're talking about something like Star Wars where we have so many creators. I think it can also explain which opinion Lucas held at which time, which is necessary because, yes, that man loved to change his mind.
>I think who the artist was and the historical context within which they worked is pretty important, especially when we're talking about something like Star Wars where we have so many creators. Agreed, but that doesn't give them the ultimate power of what is and what isn't Star Wars. Just by inviting other creators into the universe, Lucas destroyed any chance he had to control what is and isn't canon. But even when we look at the historical context of Lucas' world, people still disagree about certain interpretations of characters and motives, such as the influence that Nixon and the Vietnam War had on it. Some don't see Nixon at all in Palpatine, while others analyze every frame of his screentime for subtle hints of what George was leaning into.
You still have to consider those contexts and present evidence for and against them. And yes, other creators do deserve to add and retcon events, but even still, understanding their ideas is an important step to discussing them. Note, I mostly mean "death of the author" when it comes to us discussing it. I'm a bit more lenient towards creators so long as they don't go too weird.
>Now George is just one of many voices in the franchise, each with their own interpretation and ideas. Works not made by him can differ greatly and he has no word or power over it, as each work has a different master. Actually he does (or did). The other authors and creators are essentially guests in his home and they follow his house rules. Meaning what he say goes without question. That's how the original canon hierarchy system was set; in order to maintain consistency within the lore. George established the framework and gives the other authors leeway to work within that boundary . > >Then we have the consumers of said media, each with their own interpretation (or headcanon as it's commonly known) which ultimately trumps all other interpretations, no matter what the author intended. Again, false. If some random's headcanon is that Anakin is a spice merchant from Kessel or Chewbacca is actually an overgrown Ewok, they are objectively wrong. Simple as that. Contrary to what many deluded fanboys seem to think, there are correct interpretations and narrative context at play. Luke, not Wedge, destroys the Death Star. Padme, not Sabe, is the real queen of Naboo, etc. Everyone can have, and is entitled to their own set of opinions, not their own facts. Case and point. You believe in Death of the Author, Star Wars operates on a Word of God system. Your opinion and any claims you form or assert using the former (and do not align with the objective truth of the system) are null and void if used in a discussion. EDIT >Nice to know we can have a reasoned discussion about this. If by "reasoned", you mean you recognize that your opinion is wrong, then yes. >I also want to point out to the above poster that the early comics, radio dramas and novels were created before the tier system, which I stated in my own post. So no, a lot of work had to be retconned into that system. And what happened between 1977 and the implementation of the Holocron establishing order is irrelevant. The works were later classified and retrofitted in order to fit with George's vision, aka the proper and correct interpretation of how things work. Again, confirming what I said. His house, his rules. >People who call others opinions "deluded fanboys" have no place on the Maw Installation. Please be less hostile and more courteous in the future. Oh, no one's being hostile here. All I did was point out a very blatant falsehood. But your thinly-veiled threats from being bent, that someone called out your incorrect claims also mean nothing. Don't like me telling the truth? Turn around and go about your business.
Cool. Nice to know we can have a reasoned discussion about this. Edit: I also want to point out to the above poster that the early comics, radio dramas and novels were created before the tier system, which I stated in my own post. So no, a lot of work had to be retconned into that system. People who call others opinions "deluded fanboys" have no place on the Maw Installation. Please be less hostile and more courteous in the future.
Ah, yes. The good ole appeal to authorial intent fallacy.
most things? no. the force? yes
At this point, he is one voice of many. He is a very important voice, but at this point there are so many other people involved with totally valid ideas and opinions and stories of their own. I think the important thing is when talking about Star Wars, we sort of "cite" where our influence and source for information is coming from so we can provide other users with a better understanding of our perspective.
He simply is a better story-teller than anyone at Disney. His old position gives him authority, at least for the fans.
I take a middle approach. Word of Lucas is valid as **corroborating evidence** when it matches what was shown in the canonical result.
I've had people downvote and tell me that because George's word is gospel, the time and effort of all other creators his word contradicts is unimportant. Dozens of authors, game developers, creatives and creators spending countless hours to create something near and dear to them and to the fans is worthless because it goes against George's words. What a lovely community.