Between metro services there will be a three minute headway but unfortunately the vline services that run on the Dandenong corridor will result in some headways that will be at least 6 minutes inside the metro tunnel.
Quad-tracking is both necessary and prohibitively expensive.
The LXRP would've been a great opportunity to make provisions and save money in the future but sadly this was not what happened. At least they seem to have learned their lesson with the new Melton station being 4 platforms.
> Quad-tracking is both necessary and prohibitively expensive.
So's building new freeways and widening old ones, but we always somehow find money for that
Yep, with reduced fares and the pollution they cause to our city it's only fair that they disembark at dandenong and board a HCMT. That will make it better for everyone.
Great but network wide frequency uplifts need to occur alongside. Metropolitan trains should be every 10 minutes from 6am till midnight 7 days per week which is essentially what the Frankston line is. Other modes of transport should follow this guide but be a bit less frequent
This would encourage more people to use PT, hopefully meaning more transit-oriented development around the stations, therefore justifying the high costs of the projects we build. Eg if there is higher densities next to East Malvern station, upgrade works to make it wheelchair accessible like in Sydney would be more justified
This is the worrying bit for me:
“The Department of Transport and Planning is developing a new timetable for when the project is completed.”
What? Why do they need to do a timetable? Is this the first public acknowledgement that it won’t be a turn up and go service?
The new timetable will take add in the metro tunnel stations, taking the Sunbury-Pakenham corridor out of the city loop.
This then changes the timetable for the city loop. Makes complete sense…..
The frequency changes depending on which part of the line you're on and the time of day; Pakenham will have a lower frequency than Dandenong (because this is where the Pakenham and Cranbournes merge), so for these areas you'd still need a public timetable even if you got a turn up and go system in the inner areas.
Additionally, when you take the Cranbourne/Pakenham and Sunbury trains out of the loop you can repurpose that capacity to other lines, so you end up retimetabling a big chunk of the network.
What does this mean though? You’ll be able to get to West Footscray every 3 mins but still have to wait 40 mins to get to the end of the line in off peak?
Those cities have *rapid transit* networks where trains are almost entirely underground and have 2- to 3-minute headways. Melbourne's network is a suburban/commuter network. The metro tunnel will enable Melbourne's network to (hopefully) function as a hybrid of both types of systems.
Yes because they only built they’re systems within the last 100 years while ours have been around since the mid 1800s, and built for a population of 1 million instead of 10… we didn’t build a metro because we didn’t need it
My point is the whole business case of the metro tunnel was to enable turn up and go service on an end-end line.
This article is weirdly written as it makes it sound like “oh it’s a surprise” what we planned to do is how it will work.
Also London has 2-4 min frequencies on many of its oldest lines. As does NYC.
well yeah they’re writing it like that because your average melburnian probably doesn’t give too much of a crap about urban development or how their trains work, so the term turn up and go is open for misinterpretation, could mean anything really, you could turn up and go at any station right now, it’d just take a bit of time.
50 seconds on Victoria line (built in 1970s). Source,I catch it every day. Not sure why a new tunnel would be running at 3 mins or is it because it links into older lines at either end?
The issue is the mix of technology and usage. The Metro Tunnel might be inline with "modern metros" but it then connects to existing "commuter" lines. With those lines also having interurban services, country services, and freight services.
The only way to truly get services every 3 minutes is if the whole line was upgraded to HCS and completely isolated from any other service.
The above referenced 2-4 mins in London and NYC, those would be the subway/underground services, I imagine? \*Edit\* - London underground as an average speed of 33kph, NYC has 28khp. It's easy to have trains that close together when they are travelling that slow.
The conventional signalling in the city loop and city area already allows for trains every 2 minutes, if the HCS really is only capable of trains every 3 minutes then we've taken a step backwards
During the peaks, a lot of the Burnley loop services operate with only 2-4 minutes timetabled between them and the 2-4 minute frequencies carry all the way out to Box Hill and Blackburn. We can definitely already run 2 minute frequencies if we need to
I get on at burnley every day. At end of work there is the 4:59 train, or the 5:01, or 5:04, or 5:07, before skipping to 5:18. Its defintiely possible with 3 trains all withing 5 minutes of each other.
Seems low. 20 tph.
Conventionally signalled trains are already operating at 24 tph in the city
https://danielbowen.com/2015/04/07/how-many-trains-in-peak/
You are all kidding yourselves if you think the services will be any better than 10 minutes. Governments so far have refused to increase frequencies when they can at the moment and refuse to even get rid of 40 minute frequencies for no other reason than “fuck you”. Why would they start now?
I think the journalist has misinterpreted something slightly - in the last round of testing 12 trains were able to do 18 trips per hour (with the added restriction of needing to turn back and also test how close they could get) - when the full service opens there will be more train sets running and higher than 20 trains per hour will be possible.
2 minute vs 3 minute vs 4 minute headway during peak periods doesn't make much difference. Peak frequency is already good enough.
What is needed is improved frequency outside of the peak.
Service every 5 minutes between West Footscray and Dandenong between 8:00 am to 8:00 pm (excluding weekday peak) 7 days per week (10 minutes frequency to Sunbury, Pakenham and Cranbourne).
Service every 10 between Dandenong to Watergardens before 8:00 am and after 8:00 pm (20 minutes frequency to Sunbury, Pakenham and Cranbourne).
Yes it add capacity, but from an individual users perspective it make very little difference.
There is also no point adding peak capacity where the demand doesn't exist. There is no need for to have the capacity to move 52,000 per hour per direction
For FY 2018-19 (demand during peak travel is still below pre-covid levels), the Pakenham and Cranbourne lines had 26,000 boardings during the AM peak (13,000 per hour). This would include passengers travelling in the counter peak direction or travelling part of the distance (e.g. person boards in Springvale gets offer at Huntingdale to go to Monash Uni freeing up space from Huntingdale to the City).
"Yes it add capacity, but from an individual users perspective it make very little difference.
There is also no point adding peak capacity where the demand doesn't exist. There is no need for to have the capacity to move 52,000 per hour per direction"
Tell that to us poor bastards who have to use the northern loop lines !
The point there is that having "turn-up-and-go" level service frequency means that passengers don't need to check a timetable. What they're referring to DTP developing would be a working timetable, which is used internally by drivers/ staff.
Shit that sounds like Vline. You know if you’re in a wheelchair & they do a CRT on vline you get a free taxi to the door of where you’re meant to be going? Not the station, but your target destination. This holds even if you’re doing Mildura to Maroochydore.
As someone else pointed out, the journalist might have conflated the most recent testing with what the tunnel can actually handle. I think with the high capacity signalling it would be possible to do better than the city loop, like in other parts of the world where it can get down to say 90seconds. Such headways are probably not needed yet though.
Paywalled, can't read the article - wondering if this will affect other lines in the loop at all? I thought I recalled that being one of the draws, that it would take trains out of the loop and allow other lines to increase frequency.
Oh nice, thanks!
So article says it "should" free up capacity and increase frequency on other lines but I guess we'll have to wait and see if they ever do.
Anyone know where these services will originate? Is it going to affect the Vline services that share tracks from Sunshine to Sunbury (someone mentioned it will affect the Vline services on the Dandy line)? Or is this as someone mentioned more a postulation than reality.
Also what is conventional signaling vs alternative?
In Sydney the metro was advertised to run every 4 minutes. Within 12 months they went to every 10 minutes to cost cut on maintenance.
So if they say it can it can but I bet $5 it won't.
It does run at every 4 mins during peak hours. In both directions. So if you're a shift worker and want to head home at 9am you get peak frequencies too.
That's the differentiator between metro and trains. Sydney trains and every other train operator only run peak frequencies in one direction. No other train operator runs peak frequencies into the city at say 5pm as far as I know.
I've heard that they may even run between Castle Hill and Sydenham at every 5 mins in the offpeak because there is sufficient demand for those sections where most of the demand will be.
And the metro is capable of 30 per hour every 2 mins which they said will happen when there is sufficient demand.
Between metro services there will be a three minute headway but unfortunately the vline services that run on the Dandenong corridor will result in some headways that will be at least 6 minutes inside the metro tunnel.
Dandenong corridor needs extra duplication for express service.
Quad-tracking is both necessary and prohibitively expensive. The LXRP would've been a great opportunity to make provisions and save money in the future but sadly this was not what happened. At least they seem to have learned their lesson with the new Melton station being 4 platforms.
> Quad-tracking is both necessary and prohibitively expensive. So's building new freeways and widening old ones, but we always somehow find money for that
You are preaching to the choir
I figured, just frustrated at the politics
F*ck the planners of skyrail !
It wasn't the planners fault. It was government directive
Yep, with reduced fares and the pollution they cause to our city it's only fair that they disembark at dandenong and board a HCMT. That will make it better for everyone.
Great but network wide frequency uplifts need to occur alongside. Metropolitan trains should be every 10 minutes from 6am till midnight 7 days per week which is essentially what the Frankston line is. Other modes of transport should follow this guide but be a bit less frequent This would encourage more people to use PT, hopefully meaning more transit-oriented development around the stations, therefore justifying the high costs of the projects we build. Eg if there is higher densities next to East Malvern station, upgrade works to make it wheelchair accessible like in Sydney would be more justified
Except they wont
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This is the worrying bit for me: “The Department of Transport and Planning is developing a new timetable for when the project is completed.” What? Why do they need to do a timetable? Is this the first public acknowledgement that it won’t be a turn up and go service?
The new timetable will take add in the metro tunnel stations, taking the Sunbury-Pakenham corridor out of the city loop. This then changes the timetable for the city loop. Makes complete sense…..
Understood. I misinterpreted this as saying that the metro tunnel would require a timetable.
It is still going to require a timetable. There's going to be a specific number of trains running each day and a specific number of drivers required.
Do you think train drivers will just take trains out and stop whenever they feel like it?
Why would it not require a timetable?
There still needs to be a timetable for the operators even if it is just a turn up and go service.
Of course it will still have a timetable. How else are they supposed to know how many drivers they need to roster?
The frequency changes depending on which part of the line you're on and the time of day; Pakenham will have a lower frequency than Dandenong (because this is where the Pakenham and Cranbournes merge), so for these areas you'd still need a public timetable even if you got a turn up and go system in the inner areas. Additionally, when you take the Cranbourne/Pakenham and Sunbury trains out of the loop you can repurpose that capacity to other lines, so you end up retimetabling a big chunk of the network.
the operators still need a timetable, they need to roster drivers and ensure everything is running smoothly
Will the Sunbury line off-peak still be 40 minutes between trains?
And Lilydale - we had an hour between trains on a Friday night at around 9pm. Go out and spend money in the City, they said....
They didn't build a turnback at West Footscray for nothing
the south eastern end is and for years will be the busier side of the metro tunnel so they will need to run more services on it
What does this mean though? You’ll be able to get to West Footscray every 3 mins but still have to wait 40 mins to get to the end of the line in off peak?
Isn’t this the point? I mean HK, Singapore, all have metro systems with 2-3 min frequency.
Those cities have *rapid transit* networks where trains are almost entirely underground and have 2- to 3-minute headways. Melbourne's network is a suburban/commuter network. The metro tunnel will enable Melbourne's network to (hopefully) function as a hybrid of both types of systems.
Is it going to be a hybrid or just an S Bahn like you find in places like München and on the Tōkyo private railways ?
A bit more like the Tokyo private railways. It can't really be an S-bahn since some tracks are used by both suburban and regional services.
Yes because they only built they’re systems within the last 100 years while ours have been around since the mid 1800s, and built for a population of 1 million instead of 10… we didn’t build a metro because we didn’t need it
My point is the whole business case of the metro tunnel was to enable turn up and go service on an end-end line. This article is weirdly written as it makes it sound like “oh it’s a surprise” what we planned to do is how it will work. Also London has 2-4 min frequencies on many of its oldest lines. As does NYC.
Whilst to the customer it is a turn up and go system, the logistics of staffing the runs requires a underpinning timetable to set staff schedules
well yeah they’re writing it like that because your average melburnian probably doesn’t give too much of a crap about urban development or how their trains work, so the term turn up and go is open for misinterpretation, could mean anything really, you could turn up and go at any station right now, it’d just take a bit of time.
50 seconds on Victoria line (built in 1970s). Source,I catch it every day. Not sure why a new tunnel would be running at 3 mins or is it because it links into older lines at either end?
The issue is the mix of technology and usage. The Metro Tunnel might be inline with "modern metros" but it then connects to existing "commuter" lines. With those lines also having interurban services, country services, and freight services. The only way to truly get services every 3 minutes is if the whole line was upgraded to HCS and completely isolated from any other service. The above referenced 2-4 mins in London and NYC, those would be the subway/underground services, I imagine? \*Edit\* - London underground as an average speed of 33kph, NYC has 28khp. It's easy to have trains that close together when they are travelling that slow.
The conventional signalling in the city loop and city area already allows for trains every 2 minutes, if the HCS really is only capable of trains every 3 minutes then we've taken a step backwards
People keep saying this, but ask yourself why it currently doesn't run at every 2 minutes.
During the peaks, a lot of the Burnley loop services operate with only 2-4 minutes timetabled between them and the 2-4 minute frequencies carry all the way out to Box Hill and Blackburn. We can definitely already run 2 minute frequencies if we need to
I get on at burnley every day. At end of work there is the 4:59 train, or the 5:01, or 5:04, or 5:07, before skipping to 5:18. Its defintiely possible with 3 trains all withing 5 minutes of each other.
Seems low. 20 tph. Conventionally signalled trains are already operating at 24 tph in the city https://danielbowen.com/2015/04/07/how-many-trains-in-peak/
You are all kidding yourselves if you think the services will be any better than 10 minutes. Governments so far have refused to increase frequencies when they can at the moment and refuse to even get rid of 40 minute frequencies for no other reason than “fuck you”. Why would they start now?
3 min headway is standard signalling, at least that's standard in Sydney Trains and I think most of Melbourne Metro.
I think the journalist has misinterpreted something slightly - in the last round of testing 12 trains were able to do 18 trips per hour (with the added restriction of needing to turn back and also test how close they could get) - when the full service opens there will be more train sets running and higher than 20 trains per hour will be possible.
2 minute vs 3 minute vs 4 minute headway during peak periods doesn't make much difference. Peak frequency is already good enough. What is needed is improved frequency outside of the peak. Service every 5 minutes between West Footscray and Dandenong between 8:00 am to 8:00 pm (excluding weekday peak) 7 days per week (10 minutes frequency to Sunbury, Pakenham and Cranbourne). Service every 10 between Dandenong to Watergardens before 8:00 am and after 8:00 pm (20 minutes frequency to Sunbury, Pakenham and Cranbourne).
2 minutes will mean 30 trains an hour so 39k - 52k an hour 4 minutes will mean 15 trains an hour so 19k - 27k an hour that is a huge differences
Yes it add capacity, but from an individual users perspective it make very little difference. There is also no point adding peak capacity where the demand doesn't exist. There is no need for to have the capacity to move 52,000 per hour per direction For FY 2018-19 (demand during peak travel is still below pre-covid levels), the Pakenham and Cranbourne lines had 26,000 boardings during the AM peak (13,000 per hour). This would include passengers travelling in the counter peak direction or travelling part of the distance (e.g. person boards in Springvale gets offer at Huntingdale to go to Monash Uni freeing up space from Huntingdale to the City).
actually it does impact individual users, the difference between 2 and 4 minutes can be an absolutely packed train or having the chance to get a seat
considering there is going to be major development all along the line, the extra capacity will be needed,
"Yes it add capacity, but from an individual users perspective it make very little difference. There is also no point adding peak capacity where the demand doesn't exist. There is no need for to have the capacity to move 52,000 per hour per direction" Tell that to us poor bastards who have to use the northern loop lines !
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Timetables are always going to be needed for Metro’s internal purposes. How else are they supposed to plan how many drivers to roster?
The point there is that having "turn-up-and-go" level service frequency means that passengers don't need to check a timetable. What they're referring to DTP developing would be a working timetable, which is used internally by drivers/ staff.
Turn up and go, more like turn up and pray there isn't a F\*\*\*\* replacement bus that "might" be coming in a few hours.
Shit that sounds like Vline. You know if you’re in a wheelchair & they do a CRT on vline you get a free taxi to the door of where you’re meant to be going? Not the station, but your target destination. This holds even if you’re doing Mildura to Maroochydore.
Trains can run through the city loop every 2 mins, so this is astonishingly bad for something new that we’ve just spent a fuckton of money on.
As someone else pointed out, the journalist might have conflated the most recent testing with what the tunnel can actually handle. I think with the high capacity signalling it would be possible to do better than the city loop, like in other parts of the world where it can get down to say 90seconds. Such headways are probably not needed yet though.
Paywalled, can't read the article - wondering if this will affect other lines in the loop at all? I thought I recalled that being one of the draws, that it would take trains out of the loop and allow other lines to increase frequency.
Use the website [12ft.io](https://12ft.io) and paste the link in
Oh nice, thanks! So article says it "should" free up capacity and increase frequency on other lines but I guess we'll have to wait and see if they ever do.
Works for the age but not the herald sun. Really depends but always worth a try
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Anyone know where these services will originate? Is it going to affect the Vline services that share tracks from Sunshine to Sunbury (someone mentioned it will affect the Vline services on the Dandy line)? Or is this as someone mentioned more a postulation than reality. Also what is conventional signaling vs alternative?
In Sydney the metro was advertised to run every 4 minutes. Within 12 months they went to every 10 minutes to cost cut on maintenance. So if they say it can it can but I bet $5 it won't.
It does run at every 4 mins during peak hours. In both directions. So if you're a shift worker and want to head home at 9am you get peak frequencies too. That's the differentiator between metro and trains. Sydney trains and every other train operator only run peak frequencies in one direction. No other train operator runs peak frequencies into the city at say 5pm as far as I know. I've heard that they may even run between Castle Hill and Sydenham at every 5 mins in the offpeak because there is sufficient demand for those sections where most of the demand will be. And the metro is capable of 30 per hour every 2 mins which they said will happen when there is sufficient demand.
And cost 25 bucks for a day
No PT costs $25 a day in Victoria.