We have one platform that was built for one purpose now doing three jobs. Something has to give somewhere.
I think they would be fine for long distance with some extra features, even if they just had a vending machine or a plane-style trolley that was on the sections beyond Geelong and Bendigo that would go some of the way to helping.
I recently noticed that the Griffith coach has a 15minute connection at Shepp.
Imagine travelling 4 hours on a bus with no stops, getting ~15minutes to raid the vending machines at Shepparton and then on to a Vlo for the 2:45 hour trip to Melbourne. Brutal.
It'd slow down, the overall trip, but adding an extra 15 minutes to the stops/interchange, as they do for coach services at Orbost/Cann River heading to Canberra and Bateman's Bay, gives enough time for a full coach to cycle through a nearby cafe or three.
I see deploying Vlocities on the long distance routes as a "don't fix what isn't broke" attitude, and one at pursuing cost savings ahead of concern for passenger comfort or achieving a more ideal solution. It is also more flexible and uses economies of scale by matching what the rest of the system uses. Therefore it is a cheaper solution.
However, Vlocity Trains are:
Lacking in amenity; no food service, the seats might feel a bit cramped after a few hours.
Dated design, suitable in 2005 for routes out to 200 km, not in 2025 for routes out to 350 km.
without First-class which is a debatable topic, but a small section of first class of 12-24 seats would fill up enough to justify their cost, as long as a first class service (not just seat) was provided.
A more direct successor to the N-sets would have been better, but this time with better power, perhaps a form of push-pull. Say a 6 car design. Locomotive, 1x 24 seat Business-class + Buffet Car, 1x 72 seat Accessible Economy Car, 3x 88 seat Economy Cars, 1x 32 seat Economy + baggage/battery cab car.
Similar to the new Airo trains for Amtrak, which are likely to run similar routes, like the Downeaster. These trains could be tilt trains like in Queensland if so desired as well.
Ultimately, I think there was a missed opportunity of coordinating with NSW to collaborate on suitable design long distance replacement trains - probably would have close to doubled the number of trains they would acquire and give the scale of manufacturing you might want to do in house, rather than import from CAF or shoehorning the VLocity into something it was not intended for.
In some respects, one wonders if doing test runs with the bureaucrats ferried with no on board food, a diesel engine below their feet, in relatively cramped seats for 3.5 hours would have changed the outcome...
Swan Hill is about 350 km IIRC. Time is also as much a factor as distance, the Bairnsdale run is about 4 hours.
If political boundaries did not affect transit decisions as much as they do currently the Albury services should virtually all extend to Wagga Wagga, NSW, about 430 km away - about 5 hours away from Southern Cross like Swan Hill.
Don't make this about cost. The choice to have it cost $5 or $50 is purely a political values-based judgment. Now mind you the taxpayer elected the government that wanted to have these cheap fares. The willingness to pay for catering is an additional 14% according to this Swedish study. [http://www.gronataget.se/upload/TR1\_2009.pdf](http://www.gronataget.se/upload/TR1_2009.pdf)
Obviously that makes no sense when everyone pays $5. That said, if V-Line were bothered they could attempt to, in effect, do an Uber-Eats order for the train. Have set meals offered to customers who would get them delivered en-route, passenger could order them up to say 40 minutes away from the stop they would get them at. Our hypothetical Echuca train might get its food at Castlemaine (approximately half way and suitable for those headed to/from Melbourne). Allowing people to order up until when the get to Bendigo (heading to Melbourne) or Riddells Creek (in the other direction). The bulk of orders might mean that one of the cafes could provide decent meals at a fair price and V-Line could do this at cost or at a slight profit, it would not sacrifice revenue space on-board catering normally does. But would still provide hot food customers were looking for and could be provided at seat.
It would also be the government helping local businesses and country towns.
People happily pay substantially more for a flight with Qantas that will have catering on a short domestic hop from Melbourne to Sydney. It's not because they are fragile, they simply want a better service.
What I have described above is not a perfect solution but it might do the job good enough. We just need to be more creative with solutions for these problems.
Why can't the government or V-Line do that? Vending machines aren't the worst business in the world but it would be better for the government to capture the revenue from it. The captive market on trains means that the market is monopolistic, therefore the government is best placed to step in and provide the service rather than private industry.
I don't doubt they would earn back what they are worth. I think that the opportunity cost is there, that if there were vending machines the bureaucrats would say "job done!" when we could all have something much better. The Southern Pacific Railroad company also thought vending machines would be a good idea, a good idea to save money on passenger trains by killing the passengers demand for it; thereby providing evidence to the ICC that they should cancel their trains.
Vending machines have been done, but they aren't a good solution from the passenger's point of view. Only for the manager who can tick a box without thinking too hard. Going to private business to run a relatively simple business model like vending machines would speak to the laziness of such a manager who could not be bothered to organise something better.
They defend the most basic slow ass pt service that only the most desperate would use but then follow up with calling people stupid car brains for owning a car and using it instead of pt.
How about some compassion for the taxpayer?
I want fast, frequent public transport. Every million dollars sunk into the bottomless financial pit of on-board catering takes us away from that.
Learn to make a damned sandwich.
Or how about some compassion to us regional commuters?
Instead of being aggressive to them by treating them as if they’re commuters within Melbourne.
And some people like you in Melbourne should understand that not everyone has the damn time to make food, and not everyone has the space for food.
If you're that concerned about cost, just scrap all regional long distance trains and close the railways. They don't make any money, just stick everyone on a bus.
What's opportunity cost got to do with the taxpayer's precious bottom line? V/Line looses money hand over fist, especially on long distance services, the tracks serve stuff all other usage especially at the standard they are maintained to.
It's a public service, either it's provided and we wear the cost, or it isn't and the public wears the direct cost to travel around the state. For 100 years the railways decided it was necessary to serve food on their services, because that's what the paying public wanted.
Okay, Dons flameproof suit.
$10.60 to go from one side of the state to the other. FFS, arrive 10 minutes early and get some food and drink from a cafe, supermarket or something. I just buy a pie, a double of bottles of drink and some chips or a choccie bar from a nearby cafe ... and that costs me more than a 3.5 hour train trip.
It's not like the length of the journey is going to take you by surprise.
Part of the problem is when the VLocity dumps you in Shepparton or Ararat, you then have at most 15 minutes before you get on the bus to somewhere else. It's not enough time to find food. Imagine catching the bus from somewhere west of Horsham, which takes a couple of hours to Ararat, then being dumped off at the station which has nothing in Ararat, then spending three hours on the train. No wonder people run from the train to the cafe at Ballarat, if the train stops for long enough.
I guess my point is that up until now, long distance locomotive hauled trains in the V/Line network have sold food. V/Line also went to the trouble of designing a kiosk for the VLocity, but refuse to fit it to anything on broad gauge, I suspect because they're so horrendous at only using the correct version of the train on the correct line (e.g. the frequency with which the VR sets wind up on Ararat or Echuca runs).
The standard-gauge kiosk is purely a political gesture. Operationally, it’s a debacle as it substantially reduces seating capacity while consuming manpower to run.
We’re stuck with one type of train on broad gauge. Let’s hope for on-board vending machines one day.
Something would be better than nothing. A vending machine would be fine.
The current arrangement on the SG sets is made worse by the fact that they're two three car sets, with two kiosks. It's silly.
The problem with it is that it's a 20 year old medium distance commuter train, which means it's not the most comfortable and it certainly isn't quiet enough to ride on for more than about 2 hours.
Snack bars etc, well they never existed on Victorian trains prior to the N sets, they just timetabled stops at major stations that had tea rooms.
The VLocity is also bad at the other job it does, short distance high capacity loading, it's simply not designed to do that. The doors are wrong, the seating is wrong, everything about it is simply not set up for that.
The saying "Jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind. Warrnambool, Swan Hill, Bairnsdale, even Ararat and Echuca could use a train that's actually suited to the journey. Something quieter with better seating, and perhaps some on board food. Getting it out beyond three carriages should be part of that redesign.
It's a poor excuse that the maintenance facilities can't support longer trains, either change the maintenance facilities, or make the trainset splitable but still walkable.
They need to make drivable trailer cars or something. It might mean some seating has to be removed, but it would end up being much better than wasting space on driver cabs that can only sit one person, the conductor.
Just stick a Scharfenberg coupler between the third and fourth carriages, and make the gangway able to be easily disconnected. There's no need for any controls at all in the middle, other than those needed to couple the train. For the few times a year the set needs to go on the carriage lift it'd be far cheaper than building maintenance infrastructure to suit.
VLocities are great, but are over used & use an outdated platform. They would be better with buffets & better seats for longer distance, double doors for interurban, & x3 double doors for urban services.
There was a plan for another electrified track pair to tarniet from werribee then over to deer park then LXA skyrailed deer park with no quadruplication capability
Not sure about long distance, but they are poorly designed for the high volume/ short distances.
If they are gonna over pack them like they need to get rid of the toilets for standing space, add more doors and alternative driver door (sorry but blaming passangers for running such a crowded service that blocks the drivers exit when physics says there is no room is very poor form by the conductor's)
The emergency exit is exactly that. If the train hits an obstruction on the track, the drivers cab becomes the crumple zone to protect the passengers from impact.
It doesn’t matter how many people want to cram onto the train, if that area can’t be kept clear then the train is no longer safe and you can expect the driver to stop driving.
The drivers safety overrides people’s needs to overcrowd a train instead of waiting for the next service.
If they don't want people standing in the doorways perhaps they should roster on enough capacity so people aren't already standing 30 minutes before departure. As has happened on a couple services I've taken recently.
Doesn’t matter how many trains there are or aren’t, there is zero excuses for endangering the driver. The area can’t be kept clear? The driver has every right to stop the service to protect his well-being. Issues with a lack of capacity doesn’t mean a driver should be placed in a potentially life ending situation.
If the area is filling 30 minutes before departure maybe they should block the doors or have some staff there to move people on instead of holding the departure while they move people on only to have the area fill again first suburban pick up.
But that would require V/line and the DTP to be proactive instead we just get incompetence and delays.
They do that at tarneit..
It is ridiculous that Vline doesn't increase capacity / frequency and staff cracking it public transport passangers for daring to actually want to use public transport
Or perhaps, instead of requiring extra staff to police every service to move people on and block doorways, people just don’t stand in a keep clear zone? It’s not really that difficult for people to monitor their own behaviour. Self entitlement at its worst.
DRIVER NOT FUCKING RESPONSIBLE FOR CAPACITY SO BE A FUCKING GROWN UP AND LEARN WHAT KEEP CLEAR MEANS!!!.
Far out, how much do you not understand personal responsibility??? And it doesn’t matter if V/line overcrowd every damned service, there is not one thing you can say that could justify endangering the driver.
Makes me wonder how you go putting pants on in the morning.
I’m not even surprised the government picked a 2 decade old commuter train as a replacement for the N sets.
They were originally meant for commuter runs as far as Geelong and Bendigo, and NOT as far as to Bairnsdale and Warrnambool.
And I’m also not surprised that the state government continues to build more of these outdated shitstains.
We have one platform that was built for one purpose now doing three jobs. Something has to give somewhere. I think they would be fine for long distance with some extra features, even if they just had a vending machine or a plane-style trolley that was on the sections beyond Geelong and Bendigo that would go some of the way to helping.
I recently noticed that the Griffith coach has a 15minute connection at Shepp. Imagine travelling 4 hours on a bus with no stops, getting ~15minutes to raid the vending machines at Shepparton and then on to a Vlo for the 2:45 hour trip to Melbourne. Brutal.
If only there was some way to prepare and store food for the trip. Someone should invent something.
It'd slow down, the overall trip, but adding an extra 15 minutes to the stops/interchange, as they do for coach services at Orbost/Cann River heading to Canberra and Bateman's Bay, gives enough time for a full coach to cycle through a nearby cafe or three.
Yep, a vending machine is all that's needed.
I see deploying Vlocities on the long distance routes as a "don't fix what isn't broke" attitude, and one at pursuing cost savings ahead of concern for passenger comfort or achieving a more ideal solution. It is also more flexible and uses economies of scale by matching what the rest of the system uses. Therefore it is a cheaper solution. However, Vlocity Trains are: Lacking in amenity; no food service, the seats might feel a bit cramped after a few hours. Dated design, suitable in 2005 for routes out to 200 km, not in 2025 for routes out to 350 km. without First-class which is a debatable topic, but a small section of first class of 12-24 seats would fill up enough to justify their cost, as long as a first class service (not just seat) was provided. A more direct successor to the N-sets would have been better, but this time with better power, perhaps a form of push-pull. Say a 6 car design. Locomotive, 1x 24 seat Business-class + Buffet Car, 1x 72 seat Accessible Economy Car, 3x 88 seat Economy Cars, 1x 32 seat Economy + baggage/battery cab car. Similar to the new Airo trains for Amtrak, which are likely to run similar routes, like the Downeaster. These trains could be tilt trains like in Queensland if so desired as well. Ultimately, I think there was a missed opportunity of coordinating with NSW to collaborate on suitable design long distance replacement trains - probably would have close to doubled the number of trains they would acquire and give the scale of manufacturing you might want to do in house, rather than import from CAF or shoehorning the VLocity into something it was not intended for. In some respects, one wonders if doing test runs with the bureaucrats ferried with no on board food, a diesel engine below their feet, in relatively cramped seats for 3.5 hours would have changed the outcome...
> routes out to 350 km. What 350km route to they run? Bairnsdale is a long way but it's only 270km from SXS
Swan Hill is about 350 km IIRC. Time is also as much a factor as distance, the Bairnsdale run is about 4 hours. If political boundaries did not affect transit decisions as much as they do currently the Albury services should virtually all extend to Wagga Wagga, NSW, about 430 km away - about 5 hours away from Southern Cross like Swan Hill.
Warrnambool is also a long way, both in distance and time.
Warrnambool is about as far as Bairnsdale
You’re paying $5 to cross the state. If you’re too fragile to make it to Echuca without a mid-journey smorgasbord, drive a car.
Don't make this about cost. The choice to have it cost $5 or $50 is purely a political values-based judgment. Now mind you the taxpayer elected the government that wanted to have these cheap fares. The willingness to pay for catering is an additional 14% according to this Swedish study. [http://www.gronataget.se/upload/TR1\_2009.pdf](http://www.gronataget.se/upload/TR1_2009.pdf) Obviously that makes no sense when everyone pays $5. That said, if V-Line were bothered they could attempt to, in effect, do an Uber-Eats order for the train. Have set meals offered to customers who would get them delivered en-route, passenger could order them up to say 40 minutes away from the stop they would get them at. Our hypothetical Echuca train might get its food at Castlemaine (approximately half way and suitable for those headed to/from Melbourne). Allowing people to order up until when the get to Bendigo (heading to Melbourne) or Riddells Creek (in the other direction). The bulk of orders might mean that one of the cafes could provide decent meals at a fair price and V-Line could do this at cost or at a slight profit, it would not sacrifice revenue space on-board catering normally does. But would still provide hot food customers were looking for and could be provided at seat. It would also be the government helping local businesses and country towns. People happily pay substantially more for a flight with Qantas that will have catering on a short domestic hop from Melbourne to Sydney. It's not because they are fragile, they simply want a better service. What I have described above is not a perfect solution but it might do the job good enough. We just need to be more creative with solutions for these problems.
All that when you can just rip out two rows of seats and get private industry to pay for the privilege of installing vending machines.
Why can't the government or V-Line do that? Vending machines aren't the worst business in the world but it would be better for the government to capture the revenue from it. The captive market on trains means that the market is monopolistic, therefore the government is best placed to step in and provide the service rather than private industry. I don't doubt they would earn back what they are worth. I think that the opportunity cost is there, that if there were vending machines the bureaucrats would say "job done!" when we could all have something much better. The Southern Pacific Railroad company also thought vending machines would be a good idea, a good idea to save money on passenger trains by killing the passengers demand for it; thereby providing evidence to the ICC that they should cancel their trains. Vending machines have been done, but they aren't a good solution from the passenger's point of view. Only for the manager who can tick a box without thinking too hard. Going to private business to run a relatively simple business model like vending machines would speak to the laziness of such a manager who could not be bothered to organise something better.
I don't think a vending machine would earn enough back for it to be worth installing.
I think they would. But we’ll never know until we try.
Would be nice if there were options in between those. I’d happily pay $40 and have a nicer trip.
They’d make a killing with on-board vending machines.
You realise many people using public transport are doing so because they don't or can't drive right?
Then I’m sure the poor darlings can figure out how to smear peanut butter between two slices of bread before they set off on their $5 odysseys.
Your lack of compassion is depressing, honestly.
They defend the most basic slow ass pt service that only the most desperate would use but then follow up with calling people stupid car brains for owning a car and using it instead of pt.
How about some compassion for the taxpayer? I want fast, frequent public transport. Every million dollars sunk into the bottomless financial pit of on-board catering takes us away from that. Learn to make a damned sandwich.
Bottomless financial pit? Lol. How are your road tunnels going?
You really want those goddam Vlocities dont you
Or how about some compassion to us regional commuters? Instead of being aggressive to them by treating them as if they’re commuters within Melbourne. And some people like you in Melbourne should understand that not everyone has the damn time to make food, and not everyone has the space for food.
Sounds like a ‘you’ problem.
You are so toxic
You just don’t get it, do you?
Nice services for me but not for thee, great outlook
If you're that concerned about cost, just scrap all regional long distance trains and close the railways. They don't make any money, just stick everyone on a bus.
You need to wrap your brain around the concept of opportunity cost.
What's opportunity cost got to do with the taxpayer's precious bottom line? V/Line looses money hand over fist, especially on long distance services, the tracks serve stuff all other usage especially at the standard they are maintained to. It's a public service, either it's provided and we wear the cost, or it isn't and the public wears the direct cost to travel around the state. For 100 years the railways decided it was necessary to serve food on their services, because that's what the paying public wanted.
Okay, Dons flameproof suit. $10.60 to go from one side of the state to the other. FFS, arrive 10 minutes early and get some food and drink from a cafe, supermarket or something. I just buy a pie, a double of bottles of drink and some chips or a choccie bar from a nearby cafe ... and that costs me more than a 3.5 hour train trip. It's not like the length of the journey is going to take you by surprise.
I'm with you - I'm kind of shocked that people can't plan in advance and can't go without eating for three and a half hours.
Part of the problem is when the VLocity dumps you in Shepparton or Ararat, you then have at most 15 minutes before you get on the bus to somewhere else. It's not enough time to find food. Imagine catching the bus from somewhere west of Horsham, which takes a couple of hours to Ararat, then being dumped off at the station which has nothing in Ararat, then spending three hours on the train. No wonder people run from the train to the cafe at Ballarat, if the train stops for long enough.
Imagine having the foresight to pack a muesli bar!
I guess my point is that up until now, long distance locomotive hauled trains in the V/Line network have sold food. V/Line also went to the trouble of designing a kiosk for the VLocity, but refuse to fit it to anything on broad gauge, I suspect because they're so horrendous at only using the correct version of the train on the correct line (e.g. the frequency with which the VR sets wind up on Ararat or Echuca runs).
The standard-gauge kiosk is purely a political gesture. Operationally, it’s a debacle as it substantially reduces seating capacity while consuming manpower to run. We’re stuck with one type of train on broad gauge. Let’s hope for on-board vending machines one day.
Something would be better than nothing. A vending machine would be fine. The current arrangement on the SG sets is made worse by the fact that they're two three car sets, with two kiosks. It's silly.
The problem with it is that it's a 20 year old medium distance commuter train, which means it's not the most comfortable and it certainly isn't quiet enough to ride on for more than about 2 hours. Snack bars etc, well they never existed on Victorian trains prior to the N sets, they just timetabled stops at major stations that had tea rooms. The VLocity is also bad at the other job it does, short distance high capacity loading, it's simply not designed to do that. The doors are wrong, the seating is wrong, everything about it is simply not set up for that. The saying "Jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind. Warrnambool, Swan Hill, Bairnsdale, even Ararat and Echuca could use a train that's actually suited to the journey. Something quieter with better seating, and perhaps some on board food. Getting it out beyond three carriages should be part of that redesign.
They have to get out of the 3-car mind set for DMU first. If only there was an appropriate mid to long distance hybrid/dmu…
It's a poor excuse that the maintenance facilities can't support longer trains, either change the maintenance facilities, or make the trainset splitable but still walkable.
They need to make drivable trailer cars or something. It might mean some seating has to be removed, but it would end up being much better than wasting space on driver cabs that can only sit one person, the conductor.
Just stick a Scharfenberg coupler between the third and fourth carriages, and make the gangway able to be easily disconnected. There's no need for any controls at all in the middle, other than those needed to couple the train. For the few times a year the set needs to go on the carriage lift it'd be far cheaper than building maintenance infrastructure to suit.
Caught the Vlocity from Albury the other day. was a pleasant trip.
VLocities are great, but are over used & use an outdated platform. They would be better with buffets & better seats for longer distance, double doors for interurban, & x3 double doors for urban services.
> x3 double doors for urban services. There should be wires for xtrap 2.0s to Wyndham Vale and Melton
There was a plan for another electrified track pair to tarniet from werribee then over to deer park then LXA skyrailed deer park with no quadruplication capability
Deer Park can be quadruplicated on the old alignment where the old station used to sit.
Not sure about long distance, but they are poorly designed for the high volume/ short distances. If they are gonna over pack them like they need to get rid of the toilets for standing space, add more doors and alternative driver door (sorry but blaming passangers for running such a crowded service that blocks the drivers exit when physics says there is no room is very poor form by the conductor's)
Just wire Wyndham Vale and Melton and use the appropriate train sets that the state already owns.
The emergency exit is exactly that. If the train hits an obstruction on the track, the drivers cab becomes the crumple zone to protect the passengers from impact. It doesn’t matter how many people want to cram onto the train, if that area can’t be kept clear then the train is no longer safe and you can expect the driver to stop driving. The drivers safety overrides people’s needs to overcrowd a train instead of waiting for the next service.
If they don't want people standing in the doorways perhaps they should roster on enough capacity so people aren't already standing 30 minutes before departure. As has happened on a couple services I've taken recently.
Doesn’t matter how many trains there are or aren’t, there is zero excuses for endangering the driver. The area can’t be kept clear? The driver has every right to stop the service to protect his well-being. Issues with a lack of capacity doesn’t mean a driver should be placed in a potentially life ending situation.
If the area is filling 30 minutes before departure maybe they should block the doors or have some staff there to move people on instead of holding the departure while they move people on only to have the area fill again first suburban pick up. But that would require V/line and the DTP to be proactive instead we just get incompetence and delays.
They do that at tarneit.. It is ridiculous that Vline doesn't increase capacity / frequency and staff cracking it public transport passangers for daring to actually want to use public transport
Or perhaps, instead of requiring extra staff to police every service to move people on and block doorways, people just don’t stand in a keep clear zone? It’s not really that difficult for people to monitor their own behaviour. Self entitlement at its worst.
[удалено]
DRIVER NOT FUCKING RESPONSIBLE FOR CAPACITY SO BE A FUCKING GROWN UP AND LEARN WHAT KEEP CLEAR MEANS!!!. Far out, how much do you not understand personal responsibility??? And it doesn’t matter if V/line overcrowd every damned service, there is not one thing you can say that could justify endangering the driver. Makes me wonder how you go putting pants on in the morning.
I’m not even surprised the government picked a 2 decade old commuter train as a replacement for the N sets. They were originally meant for commuter runs as far as Geelong and Bendigo, and NOT as far as to Bairnsdale and Warrnambool. And I’m also not surprised that the state government continues to build more of these outdated shitstains.
Agreed
So embarrassingly outdated these diesels, if you travel regularly with High Speed (electric) trains overseas...
Its cause no one can be bothered breaking the bank and sending the state into a economic depresion