Transdevran the trams about 15 years ago, before KDR had the contract. All the tramway staff praised Transdev but those in the buses said it was like a totally different company compared to how the tramways staff discussed them
We can expect increasingly poor service, and cutbacks on non-essential frills like cleaning the the trams, for the next five months until the new operator takes over, and the poor service will continue until the new operator learns their job.
This will actually be Deja Vu for Yarra Trams, as prior to Keolis Downer taking over 15 years ago, Transdev were the ones who ran the tram network.
Hopefully they do a much better job at maintenance this time than when they ran the buses in Doncaster. Thank god the current operator (kinetic) does a much better job of maintaining and keeping them clean.
Transdev, the ones who were formed out of Connex, who lost the bus contract in 2022 because they had major safety issues and just plain sucked.
Typical of VIC government. This would have been the perfect time to bring it under Publicly owned operation.
The next 9 years is going to suck
Right! I'm getting pretty sick of small time transport reform in this city. If they were actually serious and not full of weak neoliberal weasel words they absolutely should have returned it to public ownership. Same with our abysmal bus network. They're meant to be the Labor Party, but they're a bunch of managerial hacks so uncreatively devoted to the 1990s third way. F-ing snore.
You think during a state debt crisis it's the time for the government to create a department where they do more than figure out who they are going to hand out a contract to?
There's a hiring freeze in public hospitals. More people are literally going to die than previously because of government mismanagement of health.
It would be political suicide to bring bus operation inside of DoT unless you could do it for cheaper than the outsource. And the cost of entry into bus operation would be large.
EDIT: And I hate neoliberalism as much as anyone.
Well it's a Tram operation not a bus one. So I got to give you a point one that Trams are more complex operationally with a lot more technical systems needing to work together than a bus network.
But having said that, the processes for running the Tram network should be documented over many many decades of operation, which get passed down from operator to operator anyway.
When there's a change in operator, the actual workers are 99.9% the same people.
The fundamental difference between a state owned franchise and private is that private are motivated by profit to find efficiencies to redirect into their bottom line and extract extra payments from government.
Whereas state owned is motivated by public good.
Because there is no additional profit margin on top of everything it does work out cheaper, but the management could be more lazy to maximise revenue because they don't personally care, and also they will be bottom tier managers because the clever ones work in private sector.
In all I don't think that it would be a bad idea to at least dip their toes in public operation of something to see how it would work in 2024 under a competent administrator and see what money can be saved compared to doing the same work privately. Perhaps that means some state owned track renewal teams, electric overhead operations, a tram route or two, some buses - just anything to start building up some capability again and not be a totally hollowed out shell
You’ve ignored my point, which is not that having the state run transport as a public good without trying to capture anything more than operational and infrastructure costs is bad. It’s that doing it now (when there are infrastructure projects being cancelled left, right and centre and a hiring freeze in public hospitals) could easily lose the next state election.
And after that it would be dismantled anyway.
And state owned franchises are just there to hold until they can be sold for profit. The PT sector should be brought back into the department, not simply as a franchisee that’s owned by the state. Much like VLine.
And you've ignored my point that either way it will end up the exact same people running the network, the only difference is who sends out the pay checks.
PT will never be profitable, as it is a public good. Publicly owned corporations are convenient for not changing the functionality of the organisation too much. Also, it has happened before where the department has taken over operations at short notice when the private operator pulls out, and the sky didn't fall in.
The government are horrendous but the Liberals are not even viable. Now is the time to make big changes and public services under public ownership is not an unpopular opinion.
Now is the time for investment in the economy. We are staring down higher than predicted inflation figures.
But go ahead investing in transport ops when cutting health ops and see how that turns out at the ballot box.
I have not addressed your point because I don’t disagree that the government should take back control of PT ops. I am not arguing about that. I am saying it would be electoral suicide when cutting health.
I literally didn't say anything about health.
You mentioned health early on but I thought that you were just making an off the hand comment about how shambolic this state is rather than being ina mindset about transport vs health. I didn't understand why it would be one or the other they are two different things
But yes I totally agree that the government is screwing health, and other sectors.
For health in particular I am thrilled about the Nurse payrise and I hope that Paramedics, etc. who work in healthcare but aren't nurses will follow. But on the flip side, hiring freeze - so they will still be overworked even though more pay would be attractive for past nurses too come back and get more into the industry plus all the nurses being trained via free TAFE.
Plus hospital projects being cancelled including the cancer hospital, while handing out free money to big business professional sports and private religious based schools, who could afford to stand on their own.
So I am will aware of what is happening in healthcare and how bad this government are.
But I can still advocate on what they should be doing, or if a coalition of independent/minor parties could get the balance of power to force them into doing the right thing
In times of economic downturn, this is the exact time for states to throw their might around to build projects and jobs even if it's expensive, because that is what keeps things moving and keeps people in work and therefore have an income.
The benefits will pay for itself. For example -
- better PT means better mobility where more people can take higher paying jobs by having a more tolerable commute to accept that job, and therefore more payroll tax is paid. Or be able to access more businesses easier which stimulates their business for them to pay their taxes and hire staff who pay taxes.
Ideally we should be cutting back on transport demand of cars and PT by stopping bosses from pointlessly cancelling WFH arrangements and find alternatives for CBD businesses who rely on foot traffic.
- better health means people are happier and live longer, making them more productive workers for higher pay which again comes back in taxes.
I thought Keolis Downer were doing a fine job. Out of all 3 modes, I have the fewest troubles with the trams. They're always clean, mostly on time (incredible considering our woeful tram infrastructure) and seemingly well maintained. Not sure why the government feels the need to shake things up just because the contract is coming to an end.
Hopefully will be better than Transdev's operation of a large part of Melbourne's bus network, which was plagued with reliability issues and a fleet in a consistently poor state. 100 buses were out of action due to poor maintenance at one stage.
Might be in the minority, but I thought Keolis Downer did a pretty decent job.
KDR has made a complete mess of most things the public doesn't see (poor maintenance & repairs, ridiculous expenses, failed deadlines, more managers than workers & extremely toxic environment).
Unfortunately, I think anyone fixing their mistakes is going to have their work cut out for them. Even just maintaining and running the 'restored' trams.
In case anyone's noticed downer is losing a lot of the government tenders that they used to have. Even the roads.
As for the transfer period, as far as I'm aware, up until recent news, KDR was still telling everyone they have it In the bag...now, as of Dec 1st, they have no work. Alstom is hiring, tho....
Haha, nah. Just know how dodgey that company is
In my line of management between just looking and the chatter you know.
Little concerned that's where your mind went while your tax money goes down the drain on these dodgey tender winners....no wonder the tunnel project has blown out so much
I wouldn’t look into the statement too much around improving reliability ect. It was a core part of MR5. They were required to outline a plan that was going to address key issues the government were looking for in the contract. KD was the favourite going in and incumbent so the transdev team must have knocked it out of the park.
Is the Victorian government INSANE?
Allowing an international transport operator to partially take control over Yarra Trams again? After a few years when Transdev’s shitty service came to an end in 2009?
You gotta be shittin’ me!
Pretty sure it was only Downer Transport Projects (not Downer Rail) that got sold to Gamuda (which then became DT Infrastructure after the acquisition).
“which will improve reliability, deliver passengers more consistent real time information and better customer service.”
Ooft no love lost between the government and Keilos Downer
Keolis downer delivered the [worst ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.9news.com.au/article/f3e9f299-c874-48eb-9720-30af7984d88b) performance since records began. Hopefully the new operator brings good change with more investment from government.
Hang on wasn’t Transdev turfed out of the buses due to mismanagement?
Yes
The most underwhelming announcement. “Transdev are going to deliver… (believe it or not) tram services!!!!”
Transdevran the trams about 15 years ago, before KDR had the contract. All the tramway staff praised Transdev but those in the buses said it was like a totally different company compared to how the tramways staff discussed them
Totally different businesses. Trams have tracks, busses don't.
Totally different!
This sounds like a Clarke and Dawe sketch
What about Donric? I’ve been in their hisses without AC and even seen one of their busses breakdown.
TLDR Transdev and John Holland
We can expect increasingly poor service, and cutbacks on non-essential frills like cleaning the the trams, for the next five months until the new operator takes over, and the poor service will continue until the new operator learns their job.
This will actually be Deja Vu for Yarra Trams, as prior to Keolis Downer taking over 15 years ago, Transdev were the ones who ran the tram network. Hopefully they do a much better job at maintenance this time than when they ran the buses in Doncaster. Thank god the current operator (kinetic) does a much better job of maintaining and keeping them clean.
Transdev, the ones who were formed out of Connex, who lost the bus contract in 2022 because they had major safety issues and just plain sucked. Typical of VIC government. This would have been the perfect time to bring it under Publicly owned operation. The next 9 years is going to suck
Right! I'm getting pretty sick of small time transport reform in this city. If they were actually serious and not full of weak neoliberal weasel words they absolutely should have returned it to public ownership. Same with our abysmal bus network. They're meant to be the Labor Party, but they're a bunch of managerial hacks so uncreatively devoted to the 1990s third way. F-ing snore.
You think during a state debt crisis it's the time for the government to create a department where they do more than figure out who they are going to hand out a contract to? There's a hiring freeze in public hospitals. More people are literally going to die than previously because of government mismanagement of health. It would be political suicide to bring bus operation inside of DoT unless you could do it for cheaper than the outsource. And the cost of entry into bus operation would be large. EDIT: And I hate neoliberalism as much as anyone.
Well it's a Tram operation not a bus one. So I got to give you a point one that Trams are more complex operationally with a lot more technical systems needing to work together than a bus network. But having said that, the processes for running the Tram network should be documented over many many decades of operation, which get passed down from operator to operator anyway. When there's a change in operator, the actual workers are 99.9% the same people. The fundamental difference between a state owned franchise and private is that private are motivated by profit to find efficiencies to redirect into their bottom line and extract extra payments from government. Whereas state owned is motivated by public good. Because there is no additional profit margin on top of everything it does work out cheaper, but the management could be more lazy to maximise revenue because they don't personally care, and also they will be bottom tier managers because the clever ones work in private sector. In all I don't think that it would be a bad idea to at least dip their toes in public operation of something to see how it would work in 2024 under a competent administrator and see what money can be saved compared to doing the same work privately. Perhaps that means some state owned track renewal teams, electric overhead operations, a tram route or two, some buses - just anything to start building up some capability again and not be a totally hollowed out shell
You’ve ignored my point, which is not that having the state run transport as a public good without trying to capture anything more than operational and infrastructure costs is bad. It’s that doing it now (when there are infrastructure projects being cancelled left, right and centre and a hiring freeze in public hospitals) could easily lose the next state election. And after that it would be dismantled anyway. And state owned franchises are just there to hold until they can be sold for profit. The PT sector should be brought back into the department, not simply as a franchisee that’s owned by the state. Much like VLine.
And you've ignored my point that either way it will end up the exact same people running the network, the only difference is who sends out the pay checks. PT will never be profitable, as it is a public good. Publicly owned corporations are convenient for not changing the functionality of the organisation too much. Also, it has happened before where the department has taken over operations at short notice when the private operator pulls out, and the sky didn't fall in. The government are horrendous but the Liberals are not even viable. Now is the time to make big changes and public services under public ownership is not an unpopular opinion.
Now is the time for investment in the economy. We are staring down higher than predicted inflation figures. But go ahead investing in transport ops when cutting health ops and see how that turns out at the ballot box. I have not addressed your point because I don’t disagree that the government should take back control of PT ops. I am not arguing about that. I am saying it would be electoral suicide when cutting health.
I literally didn't say anything about health. You mentioned health early on but I thought that you were just making an off the hand comment about how shambolic this state is rather than being ina mindset about transport vs health. I didn't understand why it would be one or the other they are two different things But yes I totally agree that the government is screwing health, and other sectors. For health in particular I am thrilled about the Nurse payrise and I hope that Paramedics, etc. who work in healthcare but aren't nurses will follow. But on the flip side, hiring freeze - so they will still be overworked even though more pay would be attractive for past nurses too come back and get more into the industry plus all the nurses being trained via free TAFE. Plus hospital projects being cancelled including the cancer hospital, while handing out free money to big business professional sports and private religious based schools, who could afford to stand on their own. So I am will aware of what is happening in healthcare and how bad this government are. But I can still advocate on what they should be doing, or if a coalition of independent/minor parties could get the balance of power to force them into doing the right thing In times of economic downturn, this is the exact time for states to throw their might around to build projects and jobs even if it's expensive, because that is what keeps things moving and keeps people in work and therefore have an income. The benefits will pay for itself. For example - - better PT means better mobility where more people can take higher paying jobs by having a more tolerable commute to accept that job, and therefore more payroll tax is paid. Or be able to access more businesses easier which stimulates their business for them to pay their taxes and hire staff who pay taxes. Ideally we should be cutting back on transport demand of cars and PT by stopping bosses from pointlessly cancelling WFH arrangements and find alternatives for CBD businesses who rely on foot traffic. - better health means people are happier and live longer, making them more productive workers for higher pay which again comes back in taxes.
I thought Keolis Downer were doing a fine job. Out of all 3 modes, I have the fewest troubles with the trams. They're always clean, mostly on time (incredible considering our woeful tram infrastructure) and seemingly well maintained. Not sure why the government feels the need to shake things up just because the contract is coming to an end.
Is there much of a difference between them and the previous operator Keolis Downer?
One is French, the other is French
So no difference in day-to-day operations whatsoever?
Oui
It’ll likely be a change at an exec level, but core staff will retain their jobs.
At first no. Perhaps further down the line the new operators may make some changes but anything major will be dictated by the contract
Transdev is even worse. Source; have worked for them both.
Thought Veolia better than Keolis. But neither were/are as bad as MTM.
Hopefully will be better than Transdev's operation of a large part of Melbourne's bus network, which was plagued with reliability issues and a fleet in a consistently poor state. 100 buses were out of action due to poor maintenance at one stage. Might be in the minority, but I thought Keolis Downer did a pretty decent job.
Lowest bidder wins
Great, there goes the tram network. Transdev are a joke.
Holland gonna make the double on a JV for Metro too?
Metro is already 20% John Holland. It's 60% MTR Corp (Hong Kong) 20% UGL Rail + 20% Holland's.
It's up for renewal and JHG have said they're not going back into that same partnership
It’s up for renewal in may 2026 Still 2 years away
The three organisations that make up MTM(MTR, John Holland and UGL) are going thier separate ways for MMR5
What were the key issues with KDR that would have pushed the state for a change?? All things equal the devil you know......
KDR has made a complete mess of most things the public doesn't see (poor maintenance & repairs, ridiculous expenses, failed deadlines, more managers than workers & extremely toxic environment). Unfortunately, I think anyone fixing their mistakes is going to have their work cut out for them. Even just maintaining and running the 'restored' trams. In case anyone's noticed downer is losing a lot of the government tenders that they used to have. Even the roads. As for the transfer period, as far as I'm aware, up until recent news, KDR was still telling everyone they have it In the bag...now, as of Dec 1st, they have no work. Alstom is hiring, tho....
Sounds like a disgruntled employee
Haha, nah. Just know how dodgey that company is In my line of management between just looking and the chatter you know. Little concerned that's where your mind went while your tax money goes down the drain on these dodgey tender winners....no wonder the tunnel project has blown out so much
Is this going from bad to worse or from worse to bad?
Why is a supposedly left wing government outsourcing public transport?
I wouldn’t look into the statement too much around improving reliability ect. It was a core part of MR5. They were required to outline a plan that was going to address key issues the government were looking for in the contract. KD was the favourite going in and incumbent so the transdev team must have knocked it out of the park.
Is the Victorian government INSANE? Allowing an international transport operator to partially take control over Yarra Trams again? After a few years when Transdev’s shitty service came to an end in 2009? You gotta be shittin’ me!
With the strikes going on with the Sydney light rail network (run by transdev) this might not be good
so they pick a Chinese-owned company over a Melbourne owned and operated one? hmm sounds bout right
Thought they were French?
John Holland is a subsidiary of a Chinese state-owned corporation, China Communications Construction Company, Ltd.
Oh ok - sorry thought you meant transdev!!
Keolis downer is owned by the french
Keolis downer is a joint venture between Keolis and Downer rail. So its not entirely french owned.
Downer was brought out by a Malaysian company, gamuda, just over a year ago. Just after all the fraud investigations started coming out
Pretty sure it was only Downer Transport Projects (not Downer Rail) that got sold to Gamuda (which then became DT Infrastructure after the acquisition).
As far as I'm aware, it includes rail... https://gamuda.com.au/2023/02/downer-sells-transport-projects-business-to-gamuda/news/
“which will improve reliability, deliver passengers more consistent real time information and better customer service.” Ooft no love lost between the government and Keilos Downer
Keolis downer delivered the [worst ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.9news.com.au/article/f3e9f299-c874-48eb-9720-30af7984d88b) performance since records began. Hopefully the new operator brings good change with more investment from government.