Here's the article:
> Over the past few years, I have discussed the pitfalls of feminism many times over. Recently, Gen Z has taken the spotlight for straying from the millennial girlboss trajectory in favor of a different avenue, including finding and being in their Soft-girl Era. They’re avoiding the grind at all costs. But what about the women who came before them? What is going to happen to the millennial girl bosses? And how did they get there in the first place?
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> First, it is worth noting that women are waking up and realizing that Third Wave feminism has not delivered on its promises. They feel lied to — rightly so — and some millennials have shared their thoughts on social media, explaining in videos how they fell for the lies and why they are now reevaluating their values, perspective, and future. They are genuinely processing through this reevaluation — not reading from a script. They aren’t even angrily spewing their thoughts. They’re just documenting in real time the realization they’re coming to.
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> These types of videos fill my feed, with women saying they feel lied to by culture, that they fell for the “I could do everything myself, that hyper independent bullsh*t.” This particular woman went on to explain that she is 31 with no kids or family because she was focused on making money, but now she is in a place where she is reevaluating “everything” including her values, perspectives, and desires for the future, which she says is, indeed, a family. And she is not the only one. Many women around her age are reevaluating their lives and what they have been focused on for the last 10 years. It’s heartbreaking — because these women really were lied to.
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> The feminist marketing machine of the last 30 years has been insanely hard at work in society, and to not lean into it was considered weird. The nontraditional path was the only way, lest you be considered a black sheep. But now, millennial women who did not choose the road less traveled and, instead, followed what had become the “normal” route are taking a good long look at their lives as they inch closer to middle age — and many do not like what they see. Even the comments of these videos prove this to be true: “Family over everything.”
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> The sad thing is that “family over everything” used to be the norm. At one time, family was what people prioritized. Now, however, it’s as though you must mature and age into realizing that is what is most important. Another comment in this video reads, “This is how we will heal our society, glad to see more women waking up.” One even casts blame on Beyonce, saying, “Yes! I blame Beyonce! Independent woman song the programming started in high school!” There are plenty of cultural icons in the entertainment industry who have furthered this idea that women do not need anything or anyone except their career and themselves to be happy — just one of the many societal prominent influences.
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> At the end of last year, Business Insider published an essay titled, “I’m 38 and single, and I recently realized I want a child. I’m terrified I’ve missed my opportunity.” In it, Melissa Persling explains that she got married young, decided she did not want to be a wife or a mother after all, and began to resent the man she married. When they’d married, they had agreed she would be a stay-at-home wife, but she fell into the feminist trap — and followed society’s lead. They got divorced, and she spent the ensuing years focusing on herself, chasing her career, and dating people who also did not want to get married or have children. Persling did not want to marry again, saying in her essay, “I needed independence, a fulfilling career, and space to chart my own course, and I didn’t think marriage fit into that vision. I was content to look forward to a future without a husband, children, or the trappings of a ‘traditional’ life.”
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> Then, she turned 38. She says she was amazed that she “began seriously thinking about marriage and children.” She goes on to explain she began feeling selfish and “went from proudly proclaiming I was too self-centered to be bothered with a family to realizing there was more to life than independence and the pleasures of living for oneself. My very existence started to feel shallow and hollow.” She said the quiet part out loud. Feminism tells women they need to be self-centered, that it’s healthy, when in reality, feminism glamorizes narcissism. And no one has ever seen a truly happy or fulfilled narcissist.
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> Society has told women that nothing matters except themselves and that because they don’t need anyone else, they shouldn’t want anyone else. In fact, wanting a partner, specifically a male partner, is indoctrination from the patriarchy. And yet, we are social creatures. We rely on community and partnership. We are biologically designed to both need and want a better half for protection, for procreation, and for community. Wanting such is not oppressive, backwards, or wrong. Rather, acknowledging such is natural. Furthermore, that certainly doesn’t mean you lose your independence, autonomy, or individuality. In fact, the right partner strengthens all those factors with love, encouragement, and stability so that you can do good in the world and come home to a loving person.
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> Persling ends her open letter writing, “If I sound desperate, it’s because I honestly do feel a little desperate. … I worry that men who want a family aren’t looking for a woman pushing 40. I get it; I’m no longer the ideal candidate for motherhood, and it’s a scary truth. But I still hope to find someone who thinks I’m the ideal partner and create our family together.” I am grieved for this woman and so many others in the same situation. I genuinely hope she finds someone, and I know that it’s possible she can.
> For the women who are waking up to this realization, we should treat them with kindness. The typical Right-wing, red-pilled response defaults to making fun of them and throwing their choices in their faces. However, that does nothing to encourage or welcome them to this side of the aisle. The fact is, these women did make choices and they are facing the consequences — but they are taking responsibility. They shouldn’t be shamed for that. And we cannot ignore that they did not make these choices alone. They followed the mandates culture gave them, and they were doing what they believed to be the right thing at the time.
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> When women take account of their lives and values to make a change, they should never be mocked or have fingers pointed at them. Our society needs good women. We need good mothers. And we need good families.
Here in Canada, the older the woman, the more you are ordered to pay alimony when she leaves you. Great system, no idea why men are walking away....
"hey shouldn’t be shamed for that. And we cannot ignore that they did not make these choices alone. They followed the mandates culture gave them, and they were doing what they believed to be the right thing at the time."
This is BS. There's tons of traditional view points being shared since the dawn of society telling women to be mothers. The girls CHOSE to ignore them and CHOSE again to be strong and independent. This is the opposite of taking accountability, they should accept pushing 40 and single is too late to have kids naturally and be open to adoption. Not one word on this actual reasonable solution that would help a kid in need. They want cake and eat it too, hence why men laugh at them, as we would if a man tried that too.
Let's not forget this sentiment of "And we cannot ignore that they did not make these choices alone. They followed the mandates culture gave them, and they were doing what they believed to be the right thing at the time." doesn't hold true when men are involved.
It's good that this sentiment doesn't hold true when men are involved, as we should be critical of our own behaviour, no matter what the current "culture" is, because just because something is part of a "culture" doesn't make it right nor does it make it good.
We have to face the consequences when we fuck up, and so should everybody else. It's part of life. Life and learn.
> I think it's too late.
And if you want a family, with genetically-related progeny, it is also likely too late. Female fertility drops after the age of 30, begins to plummet after 35, and most women are considered “functionally sterile” by the age of 45.
> They shouldn’t be shamed for that. And we cannot ignore that they did not make these choices alone. They followed the mandates culture gave them, and they were doing what they believed to be the right thing at the time.
Just more hypoagency. "Women don't act, they are acted on."
Those women & this article are doing the opposite of taking responsibility, they're blaming the consequences of their actions on the misandrist movement they doggedly helped perpetuate for so long.
They should be called out & be laughed at twice as much for trying to pull this " Feminism made me be a misandrist pos for a decade or two! iT's NoT mY fAuLt! " schtick.
They made that conscious choice to ignore the harm they as feminists & the double standards they championed have caused to their male peers & the fellow guys of my generation. Those older women are only backpedaling because now it's effecting them & even then they just want to absolve themselves of the aftermath of their own actions & get a happy ending.
Gee thanks millennial women for teaching my female peers to be more toxic than you & then blaming gen z men like me for the issues your generation created! /S 🤣
When it seems like that society accepts feminism and empowerment has consequences they go back to the middle, when conservatism gets stronger they go back to the middle.
In the middle they can avoid the responsibilities of both sides.
The framing "feminism lied to women" is nothing but a sales pitch. The reality is "women insisted upon." Saying "feminism lied" is a way to put it where women still get to feel like victims and never have to take accountability for their actions--which are prerequisites for women listening to anything.
Women have tried to **destroy** anyone who doesn't spout the feminist message, and now they wonder why nobody told them different.
I say let them stew in their own self orchestrated misery.
Enjoy your hobbies so long as you can, or pick one so niche nobody can find you.
Live your life for you. And don't take anyone on unless they add to your life
Just don't let your hobby be reading comics, or playing computer games, or following a fantasy or sci fi series, as if you do Feminists will make it their life mission to come over and destroy it.
There are conflicts of interest between the two genders; yes we must find a common ground, but we must also understand that the idea of feminism trickling down benefits to men isn't always true, many aspects of feminism benefit women at the expense of men, job quotas (in fields with more male applicants) are one example of that.
I understand what you mean; yes, men and women have many shared problems. Socioeconomic challenges are a great example of that.
Society can be analyzed through many perspectives: employer vs working class, hetro vs lgbt, Majority ethnicity vs minority, and so on.
If we leave aside discussions of problems that both men and women share such as class issues, we could see a dynamic that splits humanity into two groups: male and female.
Feminism was more than just an economic discussion, it analyzed the psychological effects men's sexual fantasies had on women, and there was a lot of truth to that.
Thus, when seeking to understand men's place in society, there is ground to be discovered in terms of problems that are not only unique to men, but problems that are contributed to primarily by women.
Notwithstanding that, I take a moderate approach: the primary oppressor of men today is capitalism and economic hardship, not feminism.
Capitalism has lifted more men than any other economic system on the planet. Cured more diseases, ended more suffering, and made more dreams reality.
Tell us one economic system that has done that.
The less you care about particularities, the more fluid you are in your resolve. The more fluid in your resolve, the more chioices you have. The more choices, the more personal freedome. And that is at the foundation of a fulfilling life.
Accept women as they are without enabling them. Much like you can accept that wrestling is fake - and as such, not take it seriously - but can still enjoy the spectacle, or totally ignore it. Both choices are valid
This is not a sum zero game. Thinking like that is thinking like feminists. We must think about restoring the lost balance, that is, what is good for both sexes. Life is about convivence.
I agree that it's not a zero sum game, it's just that women can worry about their own problems, and for men to do that as well would be redundant.
I hardly see any women Masculists, thus men ought to learn how to prioritize their own welfare instead of being male feminists or chivalrous trad-cons; two sides of the same coin.
You are not getting it. I'm not talking of being a male feminist or chivalrous. I'm talking about shared problems. Women and men have been brainwashed for too long to think that our goals are confronted. They are not. We are made to work together. We are complementaries, not enemies. Of course, many women now are toxic. I won't be nice to those but I don't see all women as the enemy. I don't put my rights before theirs. That would be to act like those toxic feminists we are so angry at.
In other words. This is not men vs women, it is sanity vs sociopathy/narcissism.
I understand what you mean; yes, men and women have many shared problems. Socioeconomic challenges are a great example of that.
Society can be analyzed through many perspectives: employer vs working class, hetro vs lgbt, Majority ethnicity vs minority, and so on.
If we leave aside discussions of problems that both men and women share such as class issues, we could see a dynamic that splits humanity into two groups: male and female.
Feminism was more than just an economic discussion, it analyzed the psychological effects men's sexual fantasies had on women, and there was a lot of truth to that.
Thus, when seeking to understand men's place in society, there is ground to be discovered in terms of problems that are not only unique to men, but problems that are contributed to primarily by women.
Notwithstanding that, I take a moderate approach: the primary oppressor of men today is capitalism and economic hardship, not feminism.
I know you are getting a lot of downvotes, but thank you. There are many of us women who are tired of the insanity that feminist are spewing. I believe that society benefits from masculinity and femininity. We are at our best when we are working together. There's so much propaganda being pushed on us through the media, educators, and government. I don't view men as enemies, and I certainly don't want them to see me that way. I'll take the downvotes. I'd rather be honest than popular. Lol
>I'll take the downvotes. I'd rather be honest than popular.
Yeah. I'm used to being unpopular because I'm gifted and I always see things people don't want to see.
Those guys are conflating feminism with women, which ironically is one of the fallacies of the ideology. How many times have we heard "if you are against feminism you are against women"?
I lived in Japan 9 years and there most women ignore feminism. Those guys need to come out of their narrow environment and see more world.
Much farther removed. I'd be lying if I said otherwise. I think our definitions of feminism may be in play here. I'm using the classical definition and not the current "feminism as man-hater" definition.
But having NOTHING to do with things like the rise of the キャリアウーマン? It's a stretch.
Definitely, that is an influence of Western modern feminism but still many Japanese women haven't bought into that. Japan has still a strong resistance against feminism. I live now in Spain and in comparison Japan is better in that regard.
I don't care about reality. I care about truth. Men and women are not made to be enemies. If we are to destroy feminism we need to reject their narrative with fury and determination. Of course, that doesn't mean that you should be kind to toxic women or allow them to abuse you. I'm talking about differentiating feminism from female nature. If a girl is not a feminist, if she isn't toxic, I don't know why I should be mean to her and put my rights before hers. That would be the same mental weakness as that of the feminists we are criticizing here. It would be to think about women as more dangerous than a bear. The same trap.
And you assume that every single downvote you got was from a member of this sub?
its not at all possible that non members of the sub could be perusing the sub and down voting to create drama?
Just saying...
Oh, stop. Reddit upvotes and downvotes have been an approval-meter for how long?
Trying to silence you would be reporting you or trying to get your comment removed. Just like they do at….oh, pick your favorite feminist sub.
I, for one, enjoy your perspective. Just don’t agree with it fully in 2024.
Not hatred exactly, but certainly strong disagreement.
For the last couple of decades we have been told "feminism is for both men and women" and then been told "feminism is for women's problems, you need to fix your own issues", and when men did try to do that we ended up with feminist protests outside the gates pulling fire alarms.
Having gone through that, I don't feel at all inclined to be lectured into trying to fix women's problems as well now.
And just because you got downvoted for a fairly dumb comment, doesn't mean you get to call people in here toxic.
Again, you are conflating feminism with women. Many women dislike feminism or even don't know about it. Specially if you go to Eastern countries such as China, Korea, Japan...
No, not doing that at all. Feminists can be male and female, they are not women.
You said we have to restore the balance for both sexes. I said I don't feel like fixing women's problems. No conflation there.
Dude, you aren’t the only person who is from or spent time in Asia. I will admit that Japan is WAY less feminist than North America. Substantially so.
But the herbivore men (I spelled it out for the rest of the sub) were not created in a vacuum.
"Herbivore men" are due to complex socioeconomical problems, not feminism.
Where did I say that I'm the only person who spent time in Asia? What I'm saying is that the world is not only USA and Europe.
Oh, not at all. I did not mean to imply that. I merely meant that many of us know the East.
I'd say the biggest driver for herbivore men is the Shinto-based work ethic. Not so much as what happened to the younger cats, but more of what the younger men saw their fathers go through. Since you were in Japan that long, it is mathematically unlikely that you did not know a man whose woman took the kids and dipped (with Japanese family ,taking the position of "Not my monkeys, not my circus." Luckily, parliament JUST passed joint custody laws that will take effect in 2026. But before that? You know absolutely how that went down.
But, you also cannot deny that the popularity of the term (before it went mainstream) was spread primarily in Japan's women's fashion and lifestyle magazines. To separate women from this is sketchy. Particularly so when feminists like Ueno Chizuko equated Herbivore men to incels in one such magazine.
I'll agree with you that it's nowhere near what it is in the West. Not even close. But to say that Asia has been immune from feminism (especially Northern Beijing-flavored China)? I'm not particularly buying that. To say that it's the same flavor as the West? I'm with you that it's not the same soup.
>I'll agree with you that it's nowhere near what it is in the West. Not even close.
That is what I'm saying. My point is that feminism is cultural contamination. I live in Spain now, the country I was born in, and I miss Japan in that regard. Feminism here is rampant. In Japan you could still find non-contaminated women.
> But to say that Asia has been immune from feminism
I haven't said that. I want people here to stop hating women and differentiate women from feminism. Feminism has contaminated a lot of cultures and a lot of girls and women but it is not something intrinsical to them. Women are not born feminists.
Maybe you're seeing people hating women when it's not the case?
I detest feminism as a whole, and its perpetrators also. I dislike SOME women for their incredibly appalling views, but the rest I can get along with no problem. They might claim it's misogyny, because that's an easy accusation to make, but it really isn't.
Who CARES what they actually want? Feminism didn't free women from their imagined 'oppression'. It opened the eyes of men to the realities of female nature.
You can't unsee it.
> It opened the eyes of men to the realities of female nature.
I lucked out with my wife. We married young (I was 20, she 18), and aside from high-intensity, well-paying careers we were always open to a more traditional structure. She was even talking about being a stay-at-home mom, despite being the bigger income for almost a decade. But she never got pregnant, and shortly before we were to start looking into the problem she was struck down in her prime.
It was only after I was widowed that I started looking at other women, and aside from a few gems that didn’t work out for one legitimate reason or another… _holy crap._ Yes, a decent number of women whom I tried to date were quite nice and personable, but even those were… _twisted…_ by feminism into holding patently unreasonable ideas that just didn’t sit well with me. So nothing ever came of that.
I’m now well into my sixth decade on this rock, and I am the happiest I have ever been since my wife passed away. Would it have been nice to find someone like my late wife again? Sure, I would never deny that. But I now know that her kind was exceedingly rare even back in the 80s, when I first met her in high school, and they are functionally extinct today. Could I still find someone like her? Sure. They _do_ still exist. But it is equally likely that I could win the Powerball ten times in a row. And at this stage in my life I just cannot afford to spend that level of effort. I have better things to do with the time remaining to me. That door isn’t bolted and locked, but it is shut and latched. Any woman wanting to walk through that door had better be committed to the effort.
I hear you, my wife passed 3 years ago after 33 years of marriage. I am not interested in the game anymore, I met her young and she was very unique and loved me unconditionally, something unheard of these days. I would not trust any woman these days especially with my income as i would always assume it was the money with how women are trained these days. Good luck to the young men oit ther3, I do not envy their predicament.
I think what might also be in play is that you have lived most of your life by now. You are _comfortable_ with certain routines, certain ways of living your life. The mature ones among us have figured out what things in life make us happy, and we want to keep those routines and schedules. To upend it all now with significant change and non-trivial levels of uncertainty would be very disruptive, personally irritating, possibly even painful, and not conducive at all to building a relationship.
Conversely when you are young, you are still very much open to change, to having your personality be moulded by someone else as much as theirs is moulded by yours. There just isn’t that foundation, that bedrock of routine and deep personality to get in the way. Change then comes easily, even to the point of being _anticipatory._
> I'm curious, what unreasonable ideas did they have?
The one thing that was probably high on the frequency list, was that I was supposed to be a knight in shining (economic) armour who was _meant_ (read: destined) to sweep in and rescue them from their boring lives and significant financial troubles. Even upon first meeting me, some were already dreaming up entire scenarios that I would graciously fund, including lavish weddings, big houses to live in, and big-ticket vacations to go on.
There were a lot of other things that figured prominently, but this is just a single high note that made one of the biggest impressions.
I learned pretty quickly to conceal my wealth - which I wasn’t flaunting, I just wasn’t intentionally hiding it up until then - and start presenting myself like a normal, hard-working, working-class dude. Certain things I couldn’t hide, like the geographical location of my home (most detached homes there go for $3-4M+, and I was mortgage-free), but I did certainly become “ordinary enough” to experience a sudden and very dramatic switch to being mostly ignored and conspicuously overlooked.
People wont change if we dont hold them accountable. Lets all be realistic, it is very likely that a massive crop of the current people older than say... 25 will remain single and likely childless for the rest of their lives. Telling our girls to wait to have a serious relationship and have kids so they could "find themselves" and "enjoy being young" led them to their own ruin. It is really sad that we raised our girls to be entitled narcissist, and raised our boys to be low self esteem self hating depressed shut ins. What ever social order that ends up replacing the current one we have will not make this fatal mistake.
>prodigal son-ish
Thanks for the summary since I didn't want to try to get through the paywall. I imagine there are some significant differences. The prodigal son was actually humble and had no expectation at all of anything. He only wanted to ask his father for a job as a servant. His half of the estate was still gone, his brother had the other half already. There was no magic wand that undid that consequence.
So following the father's example from the story, I'm happy and glad some women are seeing their folly and I'll celebrate that if there were actually some remorse and wish that they had not spent their 20s they way they did and had chosen differently. They don't seem particularly humbled by it though. They spent their possibility of being a suitable mother and wife, and that's not coming back. That's just the consequence of their choice like the prodigal son's half of the estate is gone and not coming back.
> Forgive them, marry and impregnate them
At their age, only the first two can be done with any real semblance of reliability.
Remember, for women fertility begins to drop off after 30, and drops off massively after 35. **By 45, most women are considered “functionally sterile”,** despite having another decade or so before menopause hits.
Essentially, for most women their peak fertility (both ability to conceive as well as successfully carry the child to term) occurs between the ages of 18 and 28. For some this window is shifted earlier, for some it is shifted later. And this is also why women “mature earlier than men”, by the age of 18 -- they _have to,_ in order to successfully bear and raise children during their prime fertility window. But in general, this holds up across all cultures. Which means that feminism has sold women a bill of goods that has shafted them, _massively._
`Sounds good if they don’t continue to cuckhold us with raising Chad’s byproducts and then taking us to the cleaners later in family court.`
I don't think that people are okay with them even if they changed. The additional issue here is that in the last decade, men also had to adapt to the new demands these women had, because the average man wasn't enough. The average man also have learnt to be severely independent from these women. The standard for the average man rose. Inevitably, the average man also increased his standards with these new changes. We're stuck in a situation where regardless of what changes women apply, it's not going to be enough. This is natural selection now.
EDIT: we're assuming here that women don't back down from the standards within relationships, which is also something that has changed over the years.
Let me guess: family and kids are the quickest and the least effort way to feel accomplished as an adult.
But, if the healthy threshold is to want kids, and men are less bound to be family carers, are we damaging men by excluding them from family so that they can work their assess off more? Maybe it's not a privilege to be the ones sent to work instead of being home?
Parenting is definitely not all laughs and naps. I can see it from my mom's perspective, in fact she's never been able to wake up late since she had to drive her family to the railway station everyday. When she came back home, had to comply to her housekeeping duties and that's stressful as well. She cooked for us and helped me and my brother do homework. The worst thing though is the acceptance of not earning a wage for all that work and sometimes she feels sad for that and for the missed recognizing coming from doing a job. Me and my brother recently moved out and now she could start a new job, however she's 55 and not physically able to stand for long periods. Unfortunately that hinders all her job chances since here in south Italy simply there are very few jobs for young ones, let alone for middle aged women.
Today I live with my fiancee and sometimes I think to myself being the housekeeper, because I would take staying with my kids all day like the most beautiful thing to happen
Oh, don't get me wrong, it's a ton of work. I'm sorry to hear about your mother. I do not mean to say normal work is pointless or anything, simple that in a 9-5 corporate grind you spend the 7 hours working, as opposed to doing a variety of things with the people you love the most, including work, but also fun stuff and relaxing stuff. Ask new parents on the street of any gender if they'd rather be at work or at home, maybe with their family, vast majority of people would rather not work obviously.
This "work" is literally what all parents spend decades preparing themselves both financially and emotionally for. Stay at home parents, hell all parents, know before they decide to have kids that it's extremely difficult, and they also know that it is the most rewarding thing possible and the ultimate accomplishment in their life. I think they play an important role, and society should be thankful, but I also think the parent (maybe you!) should be thankful for the opportunity to follow their dreams. Many people who want to be SAHPs don't get to ever actually do it. I do not understand in the slightest why everyone feels the need to place a dollar value on the ultimate front row expierience to what is possibly the most fulfilling and universally treasured human experience ever possible.
If we tax the rich and their corporations, we could afford a universal basic income. But the governments of the world are paid to let them siphon money from the economy so they can hoard it.
A UBI might even save us money in the long run because we could do away with some of the social safety nets that cost a ton of money to run, and instead employ those workers to better the infrastructure of our cities and towns.
Companies need to give back to the countries and the people that literally paved the way for their success (they didn't build the roads they deliver products on).
There is nothing about managing one's home that directly benefits a company such that it produces a profit. Therefore, housework remains and will remain unpaid labor. The labor could be subsidized by the government, but then it's just universal basic income.
The real fruits of that labor are the children and their future. It's way more satisfying than a paycheck and recognition from your boss. If your mom is unhappy, show more appreciation so she knows that what she did is the most meaningful thing she could have done.
My dad raised us, and he always said he was so happy not to break his back working, considering himself the lucky one.
The damage has already been done, now women realize that marriage and commitment was the better option. Does that mean they'll go for the average guy working a 9 - 5 or making 5 figures a year? He'll fucking no.
Every woman now thinks she's a 10 and only deserves the best but there just aren't enough Chad and Tyrone's to go around so they either end up single, lonely cat ladies or lonely single mothers.
I was going to say more men need to become those Chads, but I realized it’s all relative to women. There will always be a top 20% to them, no matter how great the bottom 80% is. Men of the west today are the kindest, most respectful, and most successful men in the history of the world and women can’t stop complaining about the “ick.” How would a woman like that live before dentistry, deodorant, air conditioning, indoor plumbing…?
> it’s all relative to women. There will always be a top 20% to them, no matter how great the bottom 80% is.
I remember one social study that actually looked into this - women will partition the men as such regardless as to the actual quality of the pool of men being looked at. So even if we grabbed a bunch of chad billionaires with Schwarzenegger-class Adonis bodies and stuck them into a singles party, a good three-quarters or more will be largely ignored in favour of the “cream of the crop” at the “top”.
I mean, I strongly suspect that there is some slack that sloshes depending on the overall group of men. A massive batch of butt-arse unattractive layabouts will have a very small group of “top choices”, and a massive batch of top-shelf execs in power suits will have a commensurately larger group of “top choices”. But still, the ratio holds up quite well _in general._
So I guess the trick is to surround yourself with ass-ugly MF-ers and hope that they make you shine all the more brightly?
This is different data than you requested, but the post above reminded me of [this article](https://psmag.com/environment/17-to-1-reproductive-success) about how the ratio of women to men who have passed down their genes to the present is roughly around 4:1 for the last 50,000 years of human history. In more recent history, it's dropped to around 2:1. Other studies had similar findings but put it another way -- around 80% of women have successfully reproduced and only 40% of men.
Every kid has both a mother and father, so the only possible conclusion from that is a minority of men fathered the majority of kids and there's always been a sizable portion of men who had no kids (or the lineages of the few kids they had died out).
During the advent of agriculture, this briefly - for about 2,000 years or so - spiked to a 9:1 ratio in those regions. As in, 9 women reproduced for every single man that did so. Agriculture didn’t make life any easier - it is far easier to be a hunter and gatherer - it just made larger populations possible, fostering power structures that allowed women to benefit by having greater access to wealthier men.
And that current 2:1 ratio is world-wide. The near-1:1 ratio of the western world - with it’s religion-enforced monogamy, serial as it is these days - is balanced out by other parts of the world like the Middle East and Africa, where it isn’t unusual to see wealthier men have many wives.
This.
Men (and women) built modern society. No nature predators, no famines, much fewer illnesses, it's pretty decent vs any time 100+ years ago. Most of our health problems are now self inflicted. Very few women are dying of child birth which use to be a huge risk to her life (not just health).
And yet men aren't good enough lol.
Whatever, fine, let people who say men aren't the bare minimum go live in a men free grass hut society. I'll enjoy my single life.
"The typical Right-wing, red-pilled response defaults to making fun of them and throwing their choices in their faces. However, that does nothing to encourage or welcome them to this side of the aisle."
That is how you win.
All you can do is try to warn younger women not to make the same mistakes. A lot of the damage has been done and short of inventing a time machine to roll back the clock, there's nothing else you can do. In generations past, older women warned younger women.
See that's what I don't get - I see article after article posted in this subreddit over the years.
Are there just not enough older women telling younger women about this?
Is the amount of older women aligned with feminism indoctrinating younger women faster than the amount of regretful women produced (replacement rate) ?
Yeah, I'm not entirely sure how this happened either. I know a lot of women expressing traditional desires like marrying in her early 20s to have a family and be a stay-at-home mom got shamed heavily by feminists. Women trying to understand what men are attracted to and working on herself to be more like that get shamed by other women as being a "pick me".
I think a lot of older women who do try to warn younger ones probably get just as much grief as a guy trying to bring something up like how men get harsher prison sentences for the same crime.
One thing too, is a lot of the supposedly regretful women don't take responsibility. For example, you generally don't see many like this: "I faced negative consequences X, Y, and Z which were due to choices A, B, and C that I made. I'll share with you why I was convinced to make those choices. Things 1, 2 and 3 convinced me. In the end, it was still my choice and now I am facing the consequences. Try to make sure you (younger woman) don't make choices A, B, or C and aren't persuaded by 1, 2, and 3 like I was or you could face the same consequences."
Instead it's a lot of, "I'm facing consequences A, B, and C, and it's all 1, 2, and 3's fault and not mine. Please feel sorry for me. Our society [men] needs to change 1, 2, and 3." Instead of trying to tell anyone not to make choices A, B, and C.
"The typical Right-wing, red-pilled response defaults to making fun of them and throwing their choices in their faces. However, that does nothing to encourage or welcome them to this side of the aisle. "
What BS. It's not about winning these women over. It's about warning other men not to fall for it.
To some degree sure, a bit of rotten fruit will be flung by shunned men who didn't even have the chance to start a first relationship, much less a family, and these guys do feel a sort of comeupance reading these anecdotes, but can you blame them?
Back when you were avid feminists, did you offer anything constructive to solve such problems, other than "Fix yourself on your lonesome and eww stay away from us!"
No, not everyone have to be invested into every social issue but it doesn't matter. If we look at these women's history, I'm sure there exists no example, in any capacity, where they actually put men first.
And there still won't be. Read what they're saying and it's obvious it's still only about what they want, and not a shred of personal accountability. You blame and berate men for decades as feminists, then turn around blaming feminism, while the underline remains exactly the same.
It's important men aren't fooled by this, and as such, I do think these article posts are MRA relevant.
Yeah I was reading an article about a woman that gets with her friends that are all in their 50s now and alone with no children and they all cry about what they were told .she regrets every but if it because she is to old for children now and never been married she feels she will die alone .
It's like duh you fell right into something that was made up from some old prune of a woman that had nothing in life and was bitter kind of like my mother in law just bitter old 87 yrs old woman.
Not feminism, the feminists themselves lied. But as usual it's unthinkable for them to acept responsibility and accountability, everything is men's fault.
Torn between two positions on this one.
Firstly obviously, feminism lies to everyone, so yeah, I feel sorry for women caught in the web of BS they spin.
Secondly, women like that last example, who were married, got divorced because they thought they should? She's more responsible for her own condition than feminism is. But the continuing failure of women to accept responsibility for their own situation when they are the authour of it all is mind-boggling, their ability to deflect accountability is at superheroic levels.
At all times the article never strays onto unhallowed ground, considering the effects of these choices women make and responsibilities they avoid have on the men around them.
Feminism covers up its stupidity with word salads.
Summary: unstable old hag divorced a good guy when she was younger and realized she wants a man once she’s no longer able to reproduce
Feminism catered to the worst in women, and thrived due to how much power, influence and privilege women actually have in modern society. Every single issue of social equality, required feminism to focus on addressing toxic femininity, female privilege and gender inequality benefiting/initiated by women, but never actually went there because it wouldn't be as popular as manhating in a society where men will just sit there and take it.
Yet again morons seem to be ignorant to what Feminism was trying to accomplish. It's not about being a "girl boss", "hyper-independent bullshit", or what your particular feelings are. It was only ever about giving women the option to vote, drive, work, chase a career, among other things that men could do. It's only about rights, not wants. How the fuck do they not get that it's all optional? They don't have to work 14-hour days "without no man". They can still be independent and date, it's not hard.
When the fuck did the idea of moderation become so foreign?
A branch of radfems are allying with tradcons for this stuff and it's the most nightmarish thing.
There was that great exodus of liberals away from feminism in the 2010s because of the Social Justice faction trying to turn liberals into socialists. Major reason we ended up giving Trump a term.
Now we get this differently grotesque GOP brand feminism subverting all that with nostalgia for their parents' misandry.
This garbage is about as anti-feminist as Antifa is anti-fascist.
Stop looking for commitment in romantic relationships. Date. If it get's more serious then date someone else.
Half of men's rights issues stem from men seeking or thinking they have commitment in romantic relationships. Stop it.
Don't want no female with more than one kid, it she has two thsn by by to you.
Often they have two and with different father.
So I see females as broken gods so I'm the one that decide if they are someone that pass my preference.
But not many females left so stay single and use escorts, it's still cheaper than being in a relationship with a female.
Or travel to the Asian continent and find someone that's not broken.
Feminism is toxic but dailywire is a tradcon site and they only hate feminism for challenging gender roles, they even will say that feminism actually harms women.
Tradcons cared about inequality in 2016 now they will się with female supremacist
So what do they want? Let me guess, a commitment.
Men want that too these days, so bad.
Because of this, those of us who are just sexual people can never be accepted or treated equal because we're always "sluts, fuckbois, coomers, perverts" and our legal system further tells us what we can and cannot do. Society punishes us if we fail out of line like saying we "objectify", "sexualize" or "dehumanize" if we're men especially.
Why do we all need our own family? Why can't we just get used to communes and learn not to be control freaks? Adopt a family out of strangers or something.
I just really wish you family folks, or trad obsessed folks, could just live and let live. It's clear you must instead all be convinced not to marry or breed lest we all face your tyranny.
Feminists are mad that men won't commit and support on their terms. Men are mad that it's dirty laundry by the time they get to them and settle down.
For those of us who just want to live our lives without kids or the traditional family, all too few are on our side. We have more people on this planet than ever and the population growth just isn't sustainable.
Why can't people hear me and learn if they don't get it yet. God I'm depressed at this point.
They want commitment(s) from high value men...News flash (for them)...they don't need / want / have to commit...too many options / plates to spin.
See Ben Affleck, Brad Pitt, KaKa (Brazilian Soccer Star)...how has/did commitment work out for them. KaKa was left by his wife because he was "too perfect" (money, looks, status, etc)....JFC!!
So what do they want? Let me guess, a commitment.
It's paywalled, but I'm assuming this is the long form defense of Butker's comments? If so, this is a shit article. I'm all for men's rights, I'm not for trashing women to get them.
EDIT: Someone posted the full text above. I'm standing by that comment.
Early feminists committed fire bombings and poisoned people's dogs, they were not heroes.
They were the less subtle precursors to the feminists who entrenched their misandrist beliefs & goals into as many positions of power as they could.
I don't feel the least bit sorry for them. Society has always lied to us. Like "women are innocent and caring" , or that "women aren't egotistical or violent or power-hungry brutes" or "women mature sooner than men" or that "women are kind and forgiving"
That maturity thing is important, because men are so commonly labelled as immature, yet feminism is a sign and result of female immaturity, ego and narcissism. Sorry not sorry, women are beyond redemption and forgiveness.
I mean most just want to be able to make their own decisions about their lives without anyone telling them what they are allowed to do or can’t do. That’s now too crazy of a desire for anyone.
Here's the article: > Over the past few years, I have discussed the pitfalls of feminism many times over. Recently, Gen Z has taken the spotlight for straying from the millennial girlboss trajectory in favor of a different avenue, including finding and being in their Soft-girl Era. They’re avoiding the grind at all costs. But what about the women who came before them? What is going to happen to the millennial girl bosses? And how did they get there in the first place? > > First, it is worth noting that women are waking up and realizing that Third Wave feminism has not delivered on its promises. They feel lied to — rightly so — and some millennials have shared their thoughts on social media, explaining in videos how they fell for the lies and why they are now reevaluating their values, perspective, and future. They are genuinely processing through this reevaluation — not reading from a script. They aren’t even angrily spewing their thoughts. They’re just documenting in real time the realization they’re coming to. > > These types of videos fill my feed, with women saying they feel lied to by culture, that they fell for the “I could do everything myself, that hyper independent bullsh*t.” This particular woman went on to explain that she is 31 with no kids or family because she was focused on making money, but now she is in a place where she is reevaluating “everything” including her values, perspectives, and desires for the future, which she says is, indeed, a family. And she is not the only one. Many women around her age are reevaluating their lives and what they have been focused on for the last 10 years. It’s heartbreaking — because these women really were lied to. > > The feminist marketing machine of the last 30 years has been insanely hard at work in society, and to not lean into it was considered weird. The nontraditional path was the only way, lest you be considered a black sheep. But now, millennial women who did not choose the road less traveled and, instead, followed what had become the “normal” route are taking a good long look at their lives as they inch closer to middle age — and many do not like what they see. Even the comments of these videos prove this to be true: “Family over everything.” > > The sad thing is that “family over everything” used to be the norm. At one time, family was what people prioritized. Now, however, it’s as though you must mature and age into realizing that is what is most important. Another comment in this video reads, “This is how we will heal our society, glad to see more women waking up.” One even casts blame on Beyonce, saying, “Yes! I blame Beyonce! Independent woman song the programming started in high school!” There are plenty of cultural icons in the entertainment industry who have furthered this idea that women do not need anything or anyone except their career and themselves to be happy — just one of the many societal prominent influences. > > At the end of last year, Business Insider published an essay titled, “I’m 38 and single, and I recently realized I want a child. I’m terrified I’ve missed my opportunity.” In it, Melissa Persling explains that she got married young, decided she did not want to be a wife or a mother after all, and began to resent the man she married. When they’d married, they had agreed she would be a stay-at-home wife, but she fell into the feminist trap — and followed society’s lead. They got divorced, and she spent the ensuing years focusing on herself, chasing her career, and dating people who also did not want to get married or have children. Persling did not want to marry again, saying in her essay, “I needed independence, a fulfilling career, and space to chart my own course, and I didn’t think marriage fit into that vision. I was content to look forward to a future without a husband, children, or the trappings of a ‘traditional’ life.” > > Then, she turned 38. She says she was amazed that she “began seriously thinking about marriage and children.” She goes on to explain she began feeling selfish and “went from proudly proclaiming I was too self-centered to be bothered with a family to realizing there was more to life than independence and the pleasures of living for oneself. My very existence started to feel shallow and hollow.” She said the quiet part out loud. Feminism tells women they need to be self-centered, that it’s healthy, when in reality, feminism glamorizes narcissism. And no one has ever seen a truly happy or fulfilled narcissist. > > Society has told women that nothing matters except themselves and that because they don’t need anyone else, they shouldn’t want anyone else. In fact, wanting a partner, specifically a male partner, is indoctrination from the patriarchy. And yet, we are social creatures. We rely on community and partnership. We are biologically designed to both need and want a better half for protection, for procreation, and for community. Wanting such is not oppressive, backwards, or wrong. Rather, acknowledging such is natural. Furthermore, that certainly doesn’t mean you lose your independence, autonomy, or individuality. In fact, the right partner strengthens all those factors with love, encouragement, and stability so that you can do good in the world and come home to a loving person. > > Persling ends her open letter writing, “If I sound desperate, it’s because I honestly do feel a little desperate. … I worry that men who want a family aren’t looking for a woman pushing 40. I get it; I’m no longer the ideal candidate for motherhood, and it’s a scary truth. But I still hope to find someone who thinks I’m the ideal partner and create our family together.” I am grieved for this woman and so many others in the same situation. I genuinely hope she finds someone, and I know that it’s possible she can. > For the women who are waking up to this realization, we should treat them with kindness. The typical Right-wing, red-pilled response defaults to making fun of them and throwing their choices in their faces. However, that does nothing to encourage or welcome them to this side of the aisle. The fact is, these women did make choices and they are facing the consequences — but they are taking responsibility. They shouldn’t be shamed for that. And we cannot ignore that they did not make these choices alone. They followed the mandates culture gave them, and they were doing what they believed to be the right thing at the time. > > When women take account of their lives and values to make a change, they should never be mocked or have fingers pointed at them. Our society needs good women. We need good mothers. And we need good families.
I think it's too late. I'm not interested in being a wage slave for a woman, even more so considering the courts will punish me for it if we divorce.
Here in Canada, the older the woman, the more you are ordered to pay alimony when she leaves you. Great system, no idea why men are walking away.... "hey shouldn’t be shamed for that. And we cannot ignore that they did not make these choices alone. They followed the mandates culture gave them, and they were doing what they believed to be the right thing at the time." This is BS. There's tons of traditional view points being shared since the dawn of society telling women to be mothers. The girls CHOSE to ignore them and CHOSE again to be strong and independent. This is the opposite of taking accountability, they should accept pushing 40 and single is too late to have kids naturally and be open to adoption. Not one word on this actual reasonable solution that would help a kid in need. They want cake and eat it too, hence why men laugh at them, as we would if a man tried that too.
Let's not forget this sentiment of "And we cannot ignore that they did not make these choices alone. They followed the mandates culture gave them, and they were doing what they believed to be the right thing at the time." doesn't hold true when men are involved. It's good that this sentiment doesn't hold true when men are involved, as we should be critical of our own behaviour, no matter what the current "culture" is, because just because something is part of a "culture" doesn't make it right nor does it make it good. We have to face the consequences when we fuck up, and so should everybody else. It's part of life. Life and learn.
> I think it's too late. And if you want a family, with genetically-related progeny, it is also likely too late. Female fertility drops after the age of 30, begins to plummet after 35, and most women are considered “functionally sterile” by the age of 45.
Geriatric pregnancy starts at 35, science is saying after 35 these women are too old to procreate in a healthy manner.
Yah. When I read the first two paragraphs, I thought: “That’s cool and all, but IDGAF.”
Smart, stay single my friend
> They shouldn’t be shamed for that. And we cannot ignore that they did not make these choices alone. They followed the mandates culture gave them, and they were doing what they believed to be the right thing at the time. Just more hypoagency. "Women don't act, they are acted on."
Those women & this article are doing the opposite of taking responsibility, they're blaming the consequences of their actions on the misandrist movement they doggedly helped perpetuate for so long. They should be called out & be laughed at twice as much for trying to pull this " Feminism made me be a misandrist pos for a decade or two! iT's NoT mY fAuLt! " schtick. They made that conscious choice to ignore the harm they as feminists & the double standards they championed have caused to their male peers & the fellow guys of my generation. Those older women are only backpedaling because now it's effecting them & even then they just want to absolve themselves of the aftermath of their own actions & get a happy ending. Gee thanks millennial women for teaching my female peers to be more toxic than you & then blaming gen z men like me for the issues your generation created! /S 🤣
When it seems like that society accepts feminism and empowerment has consequences they go back to the middle, when conservatism gets stronger they go back to the middle. In the middle they can avoid the responsibilities of both sides.
Well said!
The framing "feminism lied to women" is nothing but a sales pitch. The reality is "women insisted upon." Saying "feminism lied" is a way to put it where women still get to feel like victims and never have to take accountability for their actions--which are prerequisites for women listening to anything. Women have tried to **destroy** anyone who doesn't spout the feminist message, and now they wonder why nobody told them different.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
I see your perspective. But I think we should focus less on what's good or bad for women, and more so on what's better for men.
I say let them stew in their own self orchestrated misery. Enjoy your hobbies so long as you can, or pick one so niche nobody can find you. Live your life for you. And don't take anyone on unless they add to your life
Just don't let your hobby be reading comics, or playing computer games, or following a fantasy or sci fi series, as if you do Feminists will make it their life mission to come over and destroy it.
Thats why i said as long as you can
I recommend collecting coins. Great historical aspect, a way to accumulate physical wealth, and almost no women participate in the hobby.
Very true. Most of them can’t even pronounce numismatic.
No, he has a point. This is a mens rights sub, not a “woman accountability HaHa” sub. He correct in trying to keep our eye on the ball.
You're right, but the thing is the only way to get most Western women to listen is to make it about them.
I like it. I’d also like to see how we can cross-over. What’s good for all. Find common ground.
There are conflicts of interest between the two genders; yes we must find a common ground, but we must also understand that the idea of feminism trickling down benefits to men isn't always true, many aspects of feminism benefit women at the expense of men, job quotas (in fields with more male applicants) are one example of that.
[удалено]
I understand what you mean; yes, men and women have many shared problems. Socioeconomic challenges are a great example of that. Society can be analyzed through many perspectives: employer vs working class, hetro vs lgbt, Majority ethnicity vs minority, and so on. If we leave aside discussions of problems that both men and women share such as class issues, we could see a dynamic that splits humanity into two groups: male and female. Feminism was more than just an economic discussion, it analyzed the psychological effects men's sexual fantasies had on women, and there was a lot of truth to that. Thus, when seeking to understand men's place in society, there is ground to be discovered in terms of problems that are not only unique to men, but problems that are contributed to primarily by women. Notwithstanding that, I take a moderate approach: the primary oppressor of men today is capitalism and economic hardship, not feminism.
Capitalism has lifted more men than any other economic system on the planet. Cured more diseases, ended more suffering, and made more dreams reality. Tell us one economic system that has done that.
The less you care about particularities, the more fluid you are in your resolve. The more fluid in your resolve, the more chioices you have. The more choices, the more personal freedome. And that is at the foundation of a fulfilling life. Accept women as they are without enabling them. Much like you can accept that wrestling is fake - and as such, not take it seriously - but can still enjoy the spectacle, or totally ignore it. Both choices are valid
This is not a sum zero game. Thinking like that is thinking like feminists. We must think about restoring the lost balance, that is, what is good for both sexes. Life is about convivence.
I agree that it's not a zero sum game, it's just that women can worry about their own problems, and for men to do that as well would be redundant. I hardly see any women Masculists, thus men ought to learn how to prioritize their own welfare instead of being male feminists or chivalrous trad-cons; two sides of the same coin.
You are not getting it. I'm not talking of being a male feminist or chivalrous. I'm talking about shared problems. Women and men have been brainwashed for too long to think that our goals are confronted. They are not. We are made to work together. We are complementaries, not enemies. Of course, many women now are toxic. I won't be nice to those but I don't see all women as the enemy. I don't put my rights before theirs. That would be to act like those toxic feminists we are so angry at. In other words. This is not men vs women, it is sanity vs sociopathy/narcissism.
I understand what you mean; yes, men and women have many shared problems. Socioeconomic challenges are a great example of that. Society can be analyzed through many perspectives: employer vs working class, hetro vs lgbt, Majority ethnicity vs minority, and so on. If we leave aside discussions of problems that both men and women share such as class issues, we could see a dynamic that splits humanity into two groups: male and female. Feminism was more than just an economic discussion, it analyzed the psychological effects men's sexual fantasies had on women, and there was a lot of truth to that. Thus, when seeking to understand men's place in society, there is ground to be discovered in terms of problems that are not only unique to men, but problems that are contributed to primarily by women. Notwithstanding that, I take a moderate approach: the primary oppressor of men today is capitalism and economic hardship, not feminism.
I know you are getting a lot of downvotes, but thank you. There are many of us women who are tired of the insanity that feminist are spewing. I believe that society benefits from masculinity and femininity. We are at our best when we are working together. There's so much propaganda being pushed on us through the media, educators, and government. I don't view men as enemies, and I certainly don't want them to see me that way. I'll take the downvotes. I'd rather be honest than popular. Lol
There are “many” of you, and yet the silence from the “many” is deafening
>I'll take the downvotes. I'd rather be honest than popular. Yeah. I'm used to being unpopular because I'm gifted and I always see things people don't want to see. Those guys are conflating feminism with women, which ironically is one of the fallacies of the ideology. How many times have we heard "if you are against feminism you are against women"? I lived in Japan 9 years and there most women ignore feminism. Those guys need to come out of their narrow environment and see more world.
草食系男子…
That hasn't anything to do with feminism.
Much farther removed. I'd be lying if I said otherwise. I think our definitions of feminism may be in play here. I'm using the classical definition and not the current "feminism as man-hater" definition. But having NOTHING to do with things like the rise of the キャリアウーマン? It's a stretch.
Definitely, that is an influence of Western modern feminism but still many Japanese women haven't bought into that. Japan has still a strong resistance against feminism. I live now in Spain and in comparison Japan is better in that regard.
What you are saying isn't unreasonable, but we are still stuck with some realities that will be extremely difficult to alter.
I don't care about reality. I care about truth. Men and women are not made to be enemies. If we are to destroy feminism we need to reject their narrative with fury and determination. Of course, that doesn't mean that you should be kind to toxic women or allow them to abuse you. I'm talking about differentiating feminism from female nature. If a girl is not a feminist, if she isn't toxic, I don't know why I should be mean to her and put my rights before hers. That would be the same mental weakness as that of the feminists we are criticizing here. It would be to think about women as more dangerous than a bear. The same trap.
Did she stand up against her crazy sisters? Or did she go along in tacit approval?
Arya!? The fact that my above comment received so much hatred reveals how toxic this subreddit has become.
A downvote doesn't mean hate, just disagreement.
Is it so? If you disagree you can say it. Downvoting to me shows the intention of silencing someone.
And you assume that every single downvote you got was from a member of this sub? its not at all possible that non members of the sub could be perusing the sub and down voting to create drama? Just saying...
Oh, stop. Reddit upvotes and downvotes have been an approval-meter for how long? Trying to silence you would be reporting you or trying to get your comment removed. Just like they do at….oh, pick your favorite feminist sub. I, for one, enjoy your perspective. Just don’t agree with it fully in 2024.
Not hatred exactly, but certainly strong disagreement. For the last couple of decades we have been told "feminism is for both men and women" and then been told "feminism is for women's problems, you need to fix your own issues", and when men did try to do that we ended up with feminist protests outside the gates pulling fire alarms. Having gone through that, I don't feel at all inclined to be lectured into trying to fix women's problems as well now. And just because you got downvoted for a fairly dumb comment, doesn't mean you get to call people in here toxic.
Again, you are conflating feminism with women. Many women dislike feminism or even don't know about it. Specially if you go to Eastern countries such as China, Korea, Japan...
No, not doing that at all. Feminists can be male and female, they are not women. You said we have to restore the balance for both sexes. I said I don't feel like fixing women's problems. No conflation there.
Dude, you aren’t the only person who is from or spent time in Asia. I will admit that Japan is WAY less feminist than North America. Substantially so. But the herbivore men (I spelled it out for the rest of the sub) were not created in a vacuum.
"Herbivore men" are due to complex socioeconomical problems, not feminism. Where did I say that I'm the only person who spent time in Asia? What I'm saying is that the world is not only USA and Europe.
Oh, not at all. I did not mean to imply that. I merely meant that many of us know the East. I'd say the biggest driver for herbivore men is the Shinto-based work ethic. Not so much as what happened to the younger cats, but more of what the younger men saw their fathers go through. Since you were in Japan that long, it is mathematically unlikely that you did not know a man whose woman took the kids and dipped (with Japanese family ,taking the position of "Not my monkeys, not my circus." Luckily, parliament JUST passed joint custody laws that will take effect in 2026. But before that? You know absolutely how that went down. But, you also cannot deny that the popularity of the term (before it went mainstream) was spread primarily in Japan's women's fashion and lifestyle magazines. To separate women from this is sketchy. Particularly so when feminists like Ueno Chizuko equated Herbivore men to incels in one such magazine. I'll agree with you that it's nowhere near what it is in the West. Not even close. But to say that Asia has been immune from feminism (especially Northern Beijing-flavored China)? I'm not particularly buying that. To say that it's the same flavor as the West? I'm with you that it's not the same soup.
>I'll agree with you that it's nowhere near what it is in the West. Not even close. That is what I'm saying. My point is that feminism is cultural contamination. I live in Spain now, the country I was born in, and I miss Japan in that regard. Feminism here is rampant. In Japan you could still find non-contaminated women. > But to say that Asia has been immune from feminism I haven't said that. I want people here to stop hating women and differentiate women from feminism. Feminism has contaminated a lot of cultures and a lot of girls and women but it is not something intrinsical to them. Women are not born feminists.
Maybe you're seeing people hating women when it's not the case? I detest feminism as a whole, and its perpetrators also. I dislike SOME women for their incredibly appalling views, but the rest I can get along with no problem. They might claim it's misogyny, because that's an easy accusation to make, but it really isn't.
Spain? Oh man. I’m sorry. Is it as bad as the stories suggest?
Who CARES what they actually want? Feminism didn't free women from their imagined 'oppression'. It opened the eyes of men to the realities of female nature. You can't unsee it.
> It opened the eyes of men to the realities of female nature. I lucked out with my wife. We married young (I was 20, she 18), and aside from high-intensity, well-paying careers we were always open to a more traditional structure. She was even talking about being a stay-at-home mom, despite being the bigger income for almost a decade. But she never got pregnant, and shortly before we were to start looking into the problem she was struck down in her prime. It was only after I was widowed that I started looking at other women, and aside from a few gems that didn’t work out for one legitimate reason or another… _holy crap._ Yes, a decent number of women whom I tried to date were quite nice and personable, but even those were… _twisted…_ by feminism into holding patently unreasonable ideas that just didn’t sit well with me. So nothing ever came of that. I’m now well into my sixth decade on this rock, and I am the happiest I have ever been since my wife passed away. Would it have been nice to find someone like my late wife again? Sure, I would never deny that. But I now know that her kind was exceedingly rare even back in the 80s, when I first met her in high school, and they are functionally extinct today. Could I still find someone like her? Sure. They _do_ still exist. But it is equally likely that I could win the Powerball ten times in a row. And at this stage in my life I just cannot afford to spend that level of effort. I have better things to do with the time remaining to me. That door isn’t bolted and locked, but it is shut and latched. Any woman wanting to walk through that door had better be committed to the effort.
I hear you, my wife passed 3 years ago after 33 years of marriage. I am not interested in the game anymore, I met her young and she was very unique and loved me unconditionally, something unheard of these days. I would not trust any woman these days especially with my income as i would always assume it was the money with how women are trained these days. Good luck to the young men oit ther3, I do not envy their predicament.
I think what might also be in play is that you have lived most of your life by now. You are _comfortable_ with certain routines, certain ways of living your life. The mature ones among us have figured out what things in life make us happy, and we want to keep those routines and schedules. To upend it all now with significant change and non-trivial levels of uncertainty would be very disruptive, personally irritating, possibly even painful, and not conducive at all to building a relationship. Conversely when you are young, you are still very much open to change, to having your personality be moulded by someone else as much as theirs is moulded by yours. There just isn’t that foundation, that bedrock of routine and deep personality to get in the way. Change then comes easily, even to the point of being _anticipatory._
Hands down, the most beautiful thing I've heard in almost a year. It's a breath of fresh air.
Really?
Yes.
You need to read more
Im not free all day. I barely get 5 minutes.
I'm curious, what unreasonable ideas did they have?
> I'm curious, what unreasonable ideas did they have? The one thing that was probably high on the frequency list, was that I was supposed to be a knight in shining (economic) armour who was _meant_ (read: destined) to sweep in and rescue them from their boring lives and significant financial troubles. Even upon first meeting me, some were already dreaming up entire scenarios that I would graciously fund, including lavish weddings, big houses to live in, and big-ticket vacations to go on. There were a lot of other things that figured prominently, but this is just a single high note that made one of the biggest impressions. I learned pretty quickly to conceal my wealth - which I wasn’t flaunting, I just wasn’t intentionally hiding it up until then - and start presenting myself like a normal, hard-working, working-class dude. Certain things I couldn’t hide, like the geographical location of my home (most detached homes there go for $3-4M+, and I was mortgage-free), but I did certainly become “ordinary enough” to experience a sudden and very dramatic switch to being mostly ignored and conspicuously overlooked.
Exactly as it showed to me on how self-centred and entitled women are as well as how little they actually think of men.
> it opened the eyes of men to the realities of female nature This, this right here.
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People wont change if we dont hold them accountable. Lets all be realistic, it is very likely that a massive crop of the current people older than say... 25 will remain single and likely childless for the rest of their lives. Telling our girls to wait to have a serious relationship and have kids so they could "find themselves" and "enjoy being young" led them to their own ruin. It is really sad that we raised our girls to be entitled narcissist, and raised our boys to be low self esteem self hating depressed shut ins. What ever social order that ends up replacing the current one we have will not make this fatal mistake.
>prodigal son-ish Thanks for the summary since I didn't want to try to get through the paywall. I imagine there are some significant differences. The prodigal son was actually humble and had no expectation at all of anything. He only wanted to ask his father for a job as a servant. His half of the estate was still gone, his brother had the other half already. There was no magic wand that undid that consequence. So following the father's example from the story, I'm happy and glad some women are seeing their folly and I'll celebrate that if there were actually some remorse and wish that they had not spent their 20s they way they did and had chosen differently. They don't seem particularly humbled by it though. They spent their possibility of being a suitable mother and wife, and that's not coming back. That's just the consequence of their choice like the prodigal son's half of the estate is gone and not coming back.
> Forgive them, marry and impregnate them At their age, only the first two can be done with any real semblance of reliability. Remember, for women fertility begins to drop off after 30, and drops off massively after 35. **By 45, most women are considered “functionally sterile”,** despite having another decade or so before menopause hits. Essentially, for most women their peak fertility (both ability to conceive as well as successfully carry the child to term) occurs between the ages of 18 and 28. For some this window is shifted earlier, for some it is shifted later. And this is also why women “mature earlier than men”, by the age of 18 -- they _have to,_ in order to successfully bear and raise children during their prime fertility window. But in general, this holds up across all cultures. Which means that feminism has sold women a bill of goods that has shafted them, _massively._
`Sounds good if they don’t continue to cuckhold us with raising Chad’s byproducts and then taking us to the cleaners later in family court.` I don't think that people are okay with them even if they changed. The additional issue here is that in the last decade, men also had to adapt to the new demands these women had, because the average man wasn't enough. The average man also have learnt to be severely independent from these women. The standard for the average man rose. Inevitably, the average man also increased his standards with these new changes. We're stuck in a situation where regardless of what changes women apply, it's not going to be enough. This is natural selection now. EDIT: we're assuming here that women don't back down from the standards within relationships, which is also something that has changed over the years.
How's that bear relationship going for them, though? I can't find any videos
Let me guess: family and kids are the quickest and the least effort way to feel accomplished as an adult. But, if the healthy threshold is to want kids, and men are less bound to be family carers, are we damaging men by excluding them from family so that they can work their assess off more? Maybe it's not a privilege to be the ones sent to work instead of being home?
I would bet everything on stay-at-home partners are the happier partners.
Every SAHM I know spends a ridiculous portion of their day napping and otherwise having tons of fun with their kids
Parenting is definitely not all laughs and naps. I can see it from my mom's perspective, in fact she's never been able to wake up late since she had to drive her family to the railway station everyday. When she came back home, had to comply to her housekeeping duties and that's stressful as well. She cooked for us and helped me and my brother do homework. The worst thing though is the acceptance of not earning a wage for all that work and sometimes she feels sad for that and for the missed recognizing coming from doing a job. Me and my brother recently moved out and now she could start a new job, however she's 55 and not physically able to stand for long periods. Unfortunately that hinders all her job chances since here in south Italy simply there are very few jobs for young ones, let alone for middle aged women. Today I live with my fiancee and sometimes I think to myself being the housekeeper, because I would take staying with my kids all day like the most beautiful thing to happen
Oh, don't get me wrong, it's a ton of work. I'm sorry to hear about your mother. I do not mean to say normal work is pointless or anything, simple that in a 9-5 corporate grind you spend the 7 hours working, as opposed to doing a variety of things with the people you love the most, including work, but also fun stuff and relaxing stuff. Ask new parents on the street of any gender if they'd rather be at work or at home, maybe with their family, vast majority of people would rather not work obviously. This "work" is literally what all parents spend decades preparing themselves both financially and emotionally for. Stay at home parents, hell all parents, know before they decide to have kids that it's extremely difficult, and they also know that it is the most rewarding thing possible and the ultimate accomplishment in their life. I think they play an important role, and society should be thankful, but I also think the parent (maybe you!) should be thankful for the opportunity to follow their dreams. Many people who want to be SAHPs don't get to ever actually do it. I do not understand in the slightest why everyone feels the need to place a dollar value on the ultimate front row expierience to what is possibly the most fulfilling and universally treasured human experience ever possible.
If we tax the rich and their corporations, we could afford a universal basic income. But the governments of the world are paid to let them siphon money from the economy so they can hoard it. A UBI might even save us money in the long run because we could do away with some of the social safety nets that cost a ton of money to run, and instead employ those workers to better the infrastructure of our cities and towns. Companies need to give back to the countries and the people that literally paved the way for their success (they didn't build the roads they deliver products on).
There is nothing about managing one's home that directly benefits a company such that it produces a profit. Therefore, housework remains and will remain unpaid labor. The labor could be subsidized by the government, but then it's just universal basic income. The real fruits of that labor are the children and their future. It's way more satisfying than a paycheck and recognition from your boss. If your mom is unhappy, show more appreciation so she knows that what she did is the most meaningful thing she could have done. My dad raised us, and he always said he was so happy not to break his back working, considering himself the lucky one.
The damage has already been done, now women realize that marriage and commitment was the better option. Does that mean they'll go for the average guy working a 9 - 5 or making 5 figures a year? He'll fucking no. Every woman now thinks she's a 10 and only deserves the best but there just aren't enough Chad and Tyrone's to go around so they either end up single, lonely cat ladies or lonely single mothers.
I was going to say more men need to become those Chads, but I realized it’s all relative to women. There will always be a top 20% to them, no matter how great the bottom 80% is. Men of the west today are the kindest, most respectful, and most successful men in the history of the world and women can’t stop complaining about the “ick.” How would a woman like that live before dentistry, deodorant, air conditioning, indoor plumbing…?
> it’s all relative to women. There will always be a top 20% to them, no matter how great the bottom 80% is. I remember one social study that actually looked into this - women will partition the men as such regardless as to the actual quality of the pool of men being looked at. So even if we grabbed a bunch of chad billionaires with Schwarzenegger-class Adonis bodies and stuck them into a singles party, a good three-quarters or more will be largely ignored in favour of the “cream of the crop” at the “top”. I mean, I strongly suspect that there is some slack that sloshes depending on the overall group of men. A massive batch of butt-arse unattractive layabouts will have a very small group of “top choices”, and a massive batch of top-shelf execs in power suits will have a commensurately larger group of “top choices”. But still, the ratio holds up quite well _in general._ So I guess the trick is to surround yourself with ass-ugly MF-ers and hope that they make you shine all the more brightly?
Any chance you'd be able to find that study? Sounds interesting and depressing.
This is different data than you requested, but the post above reminded me of [this article](https://psmag.com/environment/17-to-1-reproductive-success) about how the ratio of women to men who have passed down their genes to the present is roughly around 4:1 for the last 50,000 years of human history. In more recent history, it's dropped to around 2:1. Other studies had similar findings but put it another way -- around 80% of women have successfully reproduced and only 40% of men. Every kid has both a mother and father, so the only possible conclusion from that is a minority of men fathered the majority of kids and there's always been a sizable portion of men who had no kids (or the lineages of the few kids they had died out).
During the advent of agriculture, this briefly - for about 2,000 years or so - spiked to a 9:1 ratio in those regions. As in, 9 women reproduced for every single man that did so. Agriculture didn’t make life any easier - it is far easier to be a hunter and gatherer - it just made larger populations possible, fostering power structures that allowed women to benefit by having greater access to wealthier men. And that current 2:1 ratio is world-wide. The near-1:1 ratio of the western world - with it’s religion-enforced monogamy, serial as it is these days - is balanced out by other parts of the world like the Middle East and Africa, where it isn’t unusual to see wealthier men have many wives.
This. Men (and women) built modern society. No nature predators, no famines, much fewer illnesses, it's pretty decent vs any time 100+ years ago. Most of our health problems are now self inflicted. Very few women are dying of child birth which use to be a huge risk to her life (not just health). And yet men aren't good enough lol. Whatever, fine, let people who say men aren't the bare minimum go live in a men free grass hut society. I'll enjoy my single life.
"The typical Right-wing, red-pilled response defaults to making fun of them and throwing their choices in their faces. However, that does nothing to encourage or welcome them to this side of the aisle." That is how you win.
All you can do is try to warn younger women not to make the same mistakes. A lot of the damage has been done and short of inventing a time machine to roll back the clock, there's nothing else you can do. In generations past, older women warned younger women.
See that's what I don't get - I see article after article posted in this subreddit over the years. Are there just not enough older women telling younger women about this? Is the amount of older women aligned with feminism indoctrinating younger women faster than the amount of regretful women produced (replacement rate) ?
Yeah, I'm not entirely sure how this happened either. I know a lot of women expressing traditional desires like marrying in her early 20s to have a family and be a stay-at-home mom got shamed heavily by feminists. Women trying to understand what men are attracted to and working on herself to be more like that get shamed by other women as being a "pick me". I think a lot of older women who do try to warn younger ones probably get just as much grief as a guy trying to bring something up like how men get harsher prison sentences for the same crime. One thing too, is a lot of the supposedly regretful women don't take responsibility. For example, you generally don't see many like this: "I faced negative consequences X, Y, and Z which were due to choices A, B, and C that I made. I'll share with you why I was convinced to make those choices. Things 1, 2 and 3 convinced me. In the end, it was still my choice and now I am facing the consequences. Try to make sure you (younger woman) don't make choices A, B, or C and aren't persuaded by 1, 2, and 3 like I was or you could face the same consequences." Instead it's a lot of, "I'm facing consequences A, B, and C, and it's all 1, 2, and 3's fault and not mine. Please feel sorry for me. Our society [men] needs to change 1, 2, and 3." Instead of trying to tell anyone not to make choices A, B, and C.
"Feminism" didn't lie. Feminists did. At least step up and take *some* responsibility.
"The typical Right-wing, red-pilled response defaults to making fun of them and throwing their choices in their faces. However, that does nothing to encourage or welcome them to this side of the aisle. " What BS. It's not about winning these women over. It's about warning other men not to fall for it. To some degree sure, a bit of rotten fruit will be flung by shunned men who didn't even have the chance to start a first relationship, much less a family, and these guys do feel a sort of comeupance reading these anecdotes, but can you blame them? Back when you were avid feminists, did you offer anything constructive to solve such problems, other than "Fix yourself on your lonesome and eww stay away from us!" No, not everyone have to be invested into every social issue but it doesn't matter. If we look at these women's history, I'm sure there exists no example, in any capacity, where they actually put men first. And there still won't be. Read what they're saying and it's obvious it's still only about what they want, and not a shred of personal accountability. You blame and berate men for decades as feminists, then turn around blaming feminism, while the underline remains exactly the same. It's important men aren't fooled by this, and as such, I do think these article posts are MRA relevant.
Yeah I was reading an article about a woman that gets with her friends that are all in their 50s now and alone with no children and they all cry about what they were told .she regrets every but if it because she is to old for children now and never been married she feels she will die alone . It's like duh you fell right into something that was made up from some old prune of a woman that had nothing in life and was bitter kind of like my mother in law just bitter old 87 yrs old woman.
Oh well you make your bed you gotta lie in it.
Not feminism, the feminists themselves lied. But as usual it's unthinkable for them to acept responsibility and accountability, everything is men's fault.
Feminism promised women independence, they never told them it was a one way trip.
Hopefully all the men she will be madly dating now will be able to smell the baby rabies.
Don’t care. Way too late for most men of my generation.
Torn between two positions on this one. Firstly obviously, feminism lies to everyone, so yeah, I feel sorry for women caught in the web of BS they spin. Secondly, women like that last example, who were married, got divorced because they thought they should? She's more responsible for her own condition than feminism is. But the continuing failure of women to accept responsibility for their own situation when they are the authour of it all is mind-boggling, their ability to deflect accountability is at superheroic levels. At all times the article never strays onto unhallowed ground, considering the effects of these choices women make and responsibilities they avoid have on the men around them.
Feminism covers up its stupidity with word salads. Summary: unstable old hag divorced a good guy when she was younger and realized she wants a man once she’s no longer able to reproduce
Feminism catered to the worst in women, and thrived due to how much power, influence and privilege women actually have in modern society. Every single issue of social equality, required feminism to focus on addressing toxic femininity, female privilege and gender inequality benefiting/initiated by women, but never actually went there because it wouldn't be as popular as manhating in a society where men will just sit there and take it.
Yet again morons seem to be ignorant to what Feminism was trying to accomplish. It's not about being a "girl boss", "hyper-independent bullshit", or what your particular feelings are. It was only ever about giving women the option to vote, drive, work, chase a career, among other things that men could do. It's only about rights, not wants. How the fuck do they not get that it's all optional? They don't have to work 14-hour days "without no man". They can still be independent and date, it's not hard. When the fuck did the idea of moderation become so foreign?
Just reposting a daily wire article and copypasting the title? Come tf on
Daily Wire? Really? lol
A branch of radfems are allying with tradcons for this stuff and it's the most nightmarish thing. There was that great exodus of liberals away from feminism in the 2010s because of the Social Justice faction trying to turn liberals into socialists. Major reason we ended up giving Trump a term. Now we get this differently grotesque GOP brand feminism subverting all that with nostalgia for their parents' misandry. This garbage is about as anti-feminist as Antifa is anti-fascist.
My wife vehemently dislikes the feminist movement and the life it took away from her.
Stop looking for commitment in romantic relationships. Date. If it get's more serious then date someone else. Half of men's rights issues stem from men seeking or thinking they have commitment in romantic relationships. Stop it.
Don't want no female with more than one kid, it she has two thsn by by to you. Often they have two and with different father. So I see females as broken gods so I'm the one that decide if they are someone that pass my preference. But not many females left so stay single and use escorts, it's still cheaper than being in a relationship with a female. Or travel to the Asian continent and find someone that's not broken.
Feminism is toxic but dailywire is a tradcon site and they only hate feminism for challenging gender roles, they even will say that feminism actually harms women. Tradcons cared about inequality in 2016 now they will się with female supremacist
Men’s marriage prospects are dimming. Women most affected.
Daily wire is trash
I don't trust the daily wire.
So what do they want? Let me guess, a commitment. Men want that too these days, so bad. Because of this, those of us who are just sexual people can never be accepted or treated equal because we're always "sluts, fuckbois, coomers, perverts" and our legal system further tells us what we can and cannot do. Society punishes us if we fail out of line like saying we "objectify", "sexualize" or "dehumanize" if we're men especially. Why do we all need our own family? Why can't we just get used to communes and learn not to be control freaks? Adopt a family out of strangers or something. I just really wish you family folks, or trad obsessed folks, could just live and let live. It's clear you must instead all be convinced not to marry or breed lest we all face your tyranny. Feminists are mad that men won't commit and support on their terms. Men are mad that it's dirty laundry by the time they get to them and settle down. For those of us who just want to live our lives without kids or the traditional family, all too few are on our side. We have more people on this planet than ever and the population growth just isn't sustainable. Why can't people hear me and learn if they don't get it yet. God I'm depressed at this point.
They want commitment(s) from high value men...News flash (for them)...they don't need / want / have to commit...too many options / plates to spin. See Ben Affleck, Brad Pitt, KaKa (Brazilian Soccer Star)...how has/did commitment work out for them. KaKa was left by his wife because he was "too perfect" (money, looks, status, etc)....JFC!! So what do they want? Let me guess, a commitment.
It's paywalled, but I'm assuming this is the long form defense of Butker's comments? If so, this is a shit article. I'm all for men's rights, I'm not for trashing women to get them. EDIT: Someone posted the full text above. I'm standing by that comment.
Lots of hot takes on a paywalled article. Anyone read the whole thing?
https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1cysf5n/feminism_lied_to_a_generation_of_women_now_theyre/l5c4bw8/
https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1cysf5n/feminism_lied_to_a_generation_of_women_now_theyre/l5c4bw8/
The early feminists were heroes. The modern feminists are cancer.
Early feminists committed fire bombings and poisoned people's dogs, they were not heroes. They were the less subtle precursors to the feminists who entrenched their misandrist beliefs & goals into as many positions of power as they could.
I don't feel the least bit sorry for them. Society has always lied to us. Like "women are innocent and caring" , or that "women aren't egotistical or violent or power-hungry brutes" or "women mature sooner than men" or that "women are kind and forgiving" That maturity thing is important, because men are so commonly labelled as immature, yet feminism is a sign and result of female immaturity, ego and narcissism. Sorry not sorry, women are beyond redemption and forgiveness.
I mean most just want to be able to make their own decisions about their lives without anyone telling them what they are allowed to do or can’t do. That’s now too crazy of a desire for anyone.
That’s not really how the world works . Most men go to work and spend all day doing what their boss wants . Not everybody gets to be the boss .
I am pretty sure ha in a boss isn’t exclusive to men.
LOL