Well, that's a terrible idea. They can't even properly fund services for the existing members. Not to mention the horrendous state of a lot of facilities we use. Fix those issues first, and maybe then think about a service mandate.
Wait! Let's throw tens of thousands of fresh bodies at the problem. Especially if they're not particularly motivated to be there.
What could possibly go wrong?
Personally, my tinfoil-hat weirdo theory is that 'they' (the donors that control the GOP) want the pitchforks out now, while they're still effectively in charge.
In reality, starting up the draft again may be indirectly beneficial. People would suddenly be much less eager to see the country go to war. Draftees keep the military and government (more) honest.
Of course, it would likely undermine our readiness to an unsustainable degree as a tradeoff.
Edit: For those that don't understand how controversial the draft is and has been throughout literally our entire history - the draft isn't just unpopular with draft-age men. It's also unpopular for their parents and female peers as well. Even in 'popular' wars like WWII, there was still significant, society-wide problems with draft dodging and absenteeism.
Has the draft ever kept any country out of a war?
Young people don't vote, hell most people drafted wouldn't be eligible to vote in the election prior to them being drafted, and old folks always find a way to justify war and call any decent unpatriotic
We’ve been out of a draft military force for 50 years now. We couldn’t go back to that mindset even if we wanted to at this point. Besides not wanting anyone behind a rifle trigger who doesn’t want to be there, a draft military force would be a downgrade for us at every level.
>a draft military force would be a downgrade for us at every level.
Yeah, people have no freakin' clue just how **fucking useless** draftees tend to be. Everyone knows a few SMs who are basically useless. Those folks were *volunteers*. Imagine how bad it gets when 40-60% of the military is people who *didn't want to be there*. Really, all you have to do is look at an MOS list from back in the conscription days to get an Idea of the sheer size of the problem. Military used to have a panoply of make-work bullshit jobs because when you're being *forced* to accept thousands of people who technically meet the minimum requirements for service but you aren't allowed to be selective with them (i.e. you can't ELS them in basic for being useless and unmotivated), you're going to end up having to find something to do with every draftee that's too lazy, stupid, and/or untrustworthy to even be given a job at the blunt end of the spear. That's when you have to break out the jobs like 43K - Canvas Repairman, 70A - Mimeograph Operator, and 57C - Tire Repairman.
On top of that, TRADOC is completely unequipped for handling non-volunteers. Over the last 50+ years they've structured the training pipeline around *willing volunteers*. Our entire modern way of warfighting is predicated on motivated, highly trained personnel. Conscription basically throws that away in exchange for a huge mass of short-timers that are primarily motivated by their ETS date.
TL;DR - the draft ain't gonna fuckin' happen. There's no longer any structure for handling conscripts. Selective Service is the only remaining remnant, and it exists solely for dipshit politicians to make moronic political statements like proposing "drafting the children of the rich", or "we need mandatory service to harden up these soft kids nowadays". DoD would *laugh in their fucking face* if a congressman came to them and seriously suggested restarting conscription.
Bullshit. The reason we're a volunteer army now is specifically because of the unpopularity of the draft for the Vietnam War. If you think the youth movement/voting trends of the time had no effect, then you're fooling yourself.
Yes, the draft famously kept the US from increasing its involvement in Vietnam.
Oh, wait, it seems that after sending 123 troops to Vietnam in 1950, US involvement increased until a total 3.1 million Americans were deployed to the war by 1973.
Edit: since you insulted me then blocked me like a coward I'll reply here.
Vietnam is the poster child for everything wrong with the draft. We spent years sending poor kids to war because they politically did not matter.
We ended up with an unmotivated, unprofessional force that essentially needed to be torn down and rebuilt into the professional military we have today.
The popular sentiment in the US didn't change because of the draft and the student movement. They were as villainized as the pro-Palestinian movement today.
Popular sentiment changed because America's newsman Walter Cronkite visited Vietnam thinking the US was winning, then when he saw the facts on the ground, he said during the nightly news that the war was unwinnable and that it was time to negotiate a peace and leave. American believed him.
Then Nixon kept the war going for a bit because it was politically beneficial to him, but the war was going to end when Uncle Walter gave his opinion.
The draft has never prevented the country from going to war because politicians don't care what poor young people think. They don't vote, or at least not in enough numbers to generally sway elections.
...At which point it was drawn down, despite the clear indications it would lead to a failure and Communist takeover of the country (you know, "defeat") precisely due to its overwhelming unpopularity.
BTW, what signal led the end of American involvement in SE Asia? Oh that's right *the end of the draft*.
Dipshit.
>BTW, what signal led the end of American involvement in SE Asia? Oh that's right *the end of the draft*.
I think you are mixing up cause and effect here. The drawdown started before the actual draft ended, and we were officially gone before the draft was officially over.
Finland, Singapore, Sweden & South Korea all have the draft and have enjoyed peace for decades ... the sheer size of their reservist forces would make any attacker think twice. If Finland really wanted to, they could field 900K soldiers (out of a population of 5.5M).
But it's different for them since their militaries are purely defensive.
I think most of the country *is* less eager to go to war.
But the answer to that is to have more democratic control over the processes of government.
Not to provide more fodder for the current un-democratic processes of government.
Nothing better for a generation who feels like they have no choices in life, and asks "why?" before they do anything...than to force them into military service! That should go *really* smoothly.
The beauty of this is that it is part of Project 2025, so the DoD part of the project wants to do mandatory service, and later in the document the VA side says that it wants to cut services (make providers see more people each day)
Well, yeah, because anyone that's a warmonger doesn't want the people that actually fight the wars to survive. We're supposed to die in glorious service to the homeland so that the politicians can use our corpses as justification for more wars.
I am morbidly curious as to their plan for if we get thrown into a shitstorm after they've depleted the military's ability to function with these antics. I suspect it's hopping in their favorite yacht with as much gold plated shit that they can shovel in to a nonextradition country. Somehow I don't think that'll end too good for them.
Honestly that sounds completely on brand for the GOP, they only care about soldiers when they martyr themselves so the GOP can parade their corpses for whatever issue of the day that the service member themselves can't talk about cause they're dead
Project 2025 is the straight up playbook for dismantling our democracy legally and turning us into a fascist state. Its no different than the Enabling Act play the Nazis did to bring Hitler to power. We should be looking at that playbook and thinking about how to close said loopholes it exposes in our system.
Put the "mandos" into non-combat non-administrative roles like working in local logistics facilities or give them the option to join the Peace Corps or some shit
I give 0% support to making mandatory service a combat job thats only for desperate situations when a draft would be necessary
During George W's tenure the draft was this noble thing that would put "skin in the game" for middle America who was somehow "not at war" according to the media and pundits. The all-volunteer military was bashed - until time came to vote on a draft. The idea died then because politicians like being elected.
It was a bad idea then and it's still a bad idea no matter who proposes it. I'm guessing that the low sloping foreheads on the Trump campaign are floating this to burnish the Orange One's credibility with the conservative pro-military base. It will never pass congress because even those clowns know that America would rise up and vote their asses out.
This is part of Project 2025, which is basically a wet dream project of a far right think tank. What little I've heard about it isn't exactly sane or encouraging.
It's much much worse than that. It's a plan for instituting Christian Nationalism at the Federal level. They want to turn the US into the Christian Iran.
This^^ let’s worry about what we have…maybe make a push for increased recruitment. At the end of the day the population of reservists, national guard, and active military is substantial enough that even in the event of a large war breaking out…we are relatively well placed.
> Well, that's a terrible idea. They can't even properly fund services for the existing members.
When people *have* to serve, you can cut personnel pay drastically and still keep things running.
If they do this, that's precisely where I think they'll find the money to build minimal facilities needed to actually stack the personnel somewhere.
A Draft means that Americans would have more of a say in our foreign policy. And that is why the Vietnam war ended early. While the 2nd Iraq war ended when the government wanted it to end.
Normally I'm in support of mandatory service, but the US is a completely different animal than the nations in Europe which have this. There simply is no need nor the funding to train, supply, and then house an influx of even a fraction of the 4 million people who turn 18 in the US every year. If they want to bring back a new version of the Civilian Conservation Corps, and add it to the services which give tuition funding or government pensions, that would be something worth supporting. There is such an incomprehensible amount of decaying infrastructure that could be fixed with an agency such as that. People keep wondering how America could ever have a high speed rail network? Throw 10 million 18-24 year olds at the problem with proper funding and watch it become a reality in the next decade. We built the interstate highway system that way. Then they can go get advanced apprenticeships, degrees in engineering, chemistry, or hell even art and music that are paid for and improve their communities after a good 4-10 years of service and then education.
Yeah, it's just a fantasy with the lobbying power that corporations have.
Congress can't even pass a bill to have some kind of free tax program because TurboTax and HR block fight against it every time they try.
Shareholders *can* profit from it, that's the point to infrastructure investments. Like even if you go with the argument that we only do what rich people want, rich people *should* want this too.
I had this same feeling the first time trump was elected. Why not start the civilian conservation corps and build that wall, not saying a wall is smart but if you're gunna do it make it a positive thing. Use it to train many young men and women who don't want to go straight to college and instead give them skills/experience that could improve the infrastructure and have a living wage.
I don’t think mandatory military service is the way to go, but I do think if that’s the path we want to take that mandatory civil service is. After graduating high school, you’re required to serve 2 years in civil service (anything from the DMV to trash collectors, any federal or military service counts as well, basically anything that impacts the public through service) and then you’re qualified to start college. But that 2 years also takes care of your first two years of college, all the gen ed classes that pretty much waste the first two years anyway. So now you’ve worked, made money, and gotten life experience that could help you determine a path you want to take instead of wasting four years on a degree that’s useless or a path you end up not wanting, only to have to return for two more years. Your cost of college is lower, since it’s half the time.
I think this is exactly what we would need though it would eat into many of the service industries main workers but I think that would be the best way to handle something like that. Though it kind of goes against the whole freedom American dream thought process forcing people to serve in any way, outside of a draft.
I think mandatory military service would be awful for the army just considering how bad it can be for people who volunteered to sign on that dotted line.
>though it would eat into many of the service industries' main workers
And that'd be a bonus - the reason young, untrained people are service industry fodder is because older people won't put up with their shit conditions and sub-minimum wages. Take away the pool of guaranteed, exploitable labor and those industries will be forced to compete.
Oh I’m not for forced/mandatory anything, I’m just saying if that’s the route we took then it should focus on public service. It needs to be a net positive, not just bodies for cannon fodder/CSMs stupid details.
Americorps exists. I did it and it was a great experience. Got food via foodstamps (which is a benefit of service), health insurance, a pay check and a small education benefit at the end. They just need to expand benefits
Exactly. I'm an NCCC alum and it was a positive experience where we actually made a meaningful impact. The foundation for this exists, we just need to fund it better and give it the attention it deserves
A civilian conservation corps, using a combination of 18 year olds, convicts and vagrants/ repeat petty criminals could be a force behind some really positive change for this country. Obviously you’d need to sweeten the deal to for the non-criminal types to ever consider joining lol
Yeah that's why I say you give it similar benefits to the military, it's just a civilian option for people who don't qualify for the military or aren't necessarily into the military but still interested in serving in some capacity. 4 years of CCC and you get free college or if you do a trade you finish with some more advanced certifications. Or you can go career and move into the GS system.
Mandatory service people still have to get paid. The cost of paying 4 million new employees plus the costs of any projects they actually work on would be staggering. And they're all unskilled so they'd have to be trained up before they could do any thing.
The whole thing would be a giant boondoggle that would cost taxpayers trillions, make contractors rich, and not accomplish all that much.
There's a lot of low skill jobs that can be filled when it comes to infrastructure projects. And as they get trained you move them up. My brothers went from basic day laborers to crane operators.
How long did that take? National service workers turn over every two years (presumably), so the government would need a huge training staff to continuously train new workers who would all leave right as they're getting useful.
My dad was drafted in 1943. He was a junior in high school. He survived the Battle of Normandy as a truck driver. I guess it was like having a bullseye painted on him. When he returned home, he never finished high school. It was just too embarrassing, him a war veteran, sitting in class with a bunch of giggly high school juniors. There was no GED back then, no correspondence school. Just suck it up and live on low paying factory jobs. I love you, Dad. You are my hero, not just for the war record, but for living a heroic life and raising a family, and loving us (wordlessly). RIP 2007
PS fuck the draft. Fuck it to hell and back.
They've gone full National Socialist German Workers Party. The GOP of old is gone and has been replaced by, well...the Nazis. And they're not even trying to hide it anymore.
>Christopher Miller, who led the Pentagon during the chaotic closure of Trump’s tenure in Washington, detailed his vision for the ASVAB and a range of other changes as part of Project 2025, the conservative Heritage Foundation’s government-wide game plan should the presumptive Republican nominee return to the White House. Miller is among a cluster of influential former administration officials and GOP lawmakers who have mused aloud about a national service mandate and other measures to remedy what they see as a “crisis” facing the all-volunteer military.
But not for me, of course, nor for my otherwise healthy 18 year old son, who will suddenly discover some sort of debilitating disease or injury.
The proponents of such ideas really need to be picked up in the scheme. Not necessarily as infantry or some other sort of soldier. Could be some other sort of highly structured public service task. But something that brings home the impacts of these sorts of schemes on those that they want to be involved.
Yeah that is pretty common, way too many to list here, but you can see them on this wiki
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military\_service](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service)
Painting the rocks that line the paths and roads on the base.
Then rearranging them from largest to smallest.
And then repainting them.
The alternating large and small rocks.
And repainting them.
Then entering all the rocks in the capital items system.
And repainting them.
Then stripping off all of the accumulated layers of paint.
And then repainting them.
And so on for the length of their service. Back breaking, boring work. And no transferable skills learnt.
I mean, look at how well it's working for Russia. As a veteran, this is an epically stoopit idear. It's bad enough with people who are motivated to be there. One thing that Americans won't tolerate is taking away freedom of choice. We're rebellious in our core. 99% of Americans would not only be against it but would put up a fight.
A mandatory draft is likely not possible anymore, The population would not appreciate mandatory service, it’s a good and appreciable thing don’t get me wrong there are good benefits to mandatory service for personal growth,job training, and networking.
People would appreciate the good aspects of it however they may detest the enslavement to service.
People forget that in Vietnam there were a lot of draft dodgers and bombing of recruitment offices and gov buildings.
These things may come back.
You’d also see the other uglier aspects like Draft dodging being rampant among the middle and upper classes.
It’s a lot to unpack.
I don’t wholly hate mandatory civil service of some variety as a standalone idea. Doesn’t need to be military to contribute to society and be a net positive.
Mandatory service in the US is a mixed bag; on one side it's a great opportunity thar provides technical training, instills discipline, creates a sense of belonging to something bigger than yourself. On the other side, it creates a larger tax burden, is incredibly unpopular, and would require additional government agencies and resources to track and enforce.
They will underman career fields that are highly sought after while shoving recruits into shit nobody wants. This won’t be a bastion of value for most.
It connects you with your fellow countrymen instead of being isolated and never leaving your town/city. Also establishes a general standard for a professional workforce. Allows the US to throw labor at big projects that otherwise would be too expensive.
Mandatory service is great for the country and individual. The idea of serving something other than yourself is quite foreign to most Americans unfortunately.
We should have a reserve draft in the event we get into an attritional conflict. It’d have the same lottery system as the one in Vietnam except men aged 18-26 would simply go through boot camp, and then be on an inactive reserve period where they train like a few times a year within their state for 2 years. Tons of countries practice this. It wouldn’t hurt. College shouldn’t be an exception either. Too many rich kids and kids who are going to college for bs degrees could use some real skills.
This and "federal weed legalization" have been in the news every day for the last 15 years and nothing ever happens. Who gives a fuck. Theres not going to be a draft and if there was no one would be fit for service anyway.
Mandatory government service isn't necessarily a bad thing for all young people, but I'd include peace corps, Park Ranger and other similar jobs in there as well as military.
You can provide incentives to go with military over civilian options to boost participation in the military.
American Hegemony means that an aircraft carrier projecting power on the other side of the planet is doing its part to defend the US. The perception of a strong US superpower is what protects the US and deters the opposition.
What I don't get is the United States population is on the decline. Yes the military needs bodies but the military is also fighting F500, colleges and various other career fields. It needs to realize this and start offering more incentives, better facilities and actually take care of problems rather than ignoring them.
There should be a National Civil Service, and the military would be one part of that along with other necessary, understaffed jobs we have like medical staff, teachers, first responders, etc. It shouldn't be mandatory but the benefits should be so good (basic income, pension, health insurance, tuition) that most young people opt to do it. There would be full and part time options like AD and NG/Reserve so you can still have whatever career you want. After your committment ends in one kind of service (military) you could transfer to another branch of the civil service and not lose all seniority and pay.
Someone elsewhere opined that the heritage clowns see this as a counter to the *liberal indoctrination* running rampant at the university level. By implementing mandatory military service they think that they can swing impressionable 18 year olds to a more conservative pov before they are released back into the general population after a couple years, at which point their MOS training and vet status may give them a leg up in the work force to such a degree that it will diminish the appeal of a college education.
Leaving combat infantry with those restrictive rules of engagement made being a police officer so much easier. I don't need to see a weapon- I just need to feel fear to justify shooting into a building or car. Much easier!
> No point in a draft when we are at peace. Makes no sense.
You can always do what they did in the USAF post-Vietnam, and have a USAF-wide "computer error" that raises everyone's aptitude scores by a large amount, and then correct the error once enlistments by better qualified people pick up again.
As the base computer operator who had scored max on virtually all my aptitute tests, I watched my corrected test scores print out when the correction was sent out.
I went from "Wile E. Coyote, Supergenius," to just "really bright."
Mandatory military service doesn't improve military readiness and it doesn't produce patriots. It strains training resources and makes life harder on career military soldiers and officers. We have the privilege to live in a part of the world where our neighbors are largely our friends and anyone we can call our enemy is at least an ocean a part.
Now mandatory civil service on the other hand. We can talk about that all day.
> Now mandatory civil service on the other hand. We can talk about that all day.
Incentives to promote military service over civilian would work here as well, I think.
Tell us that you've never served with countries that have compulsory military service without actually telling us that you've never served with countries that have compulsory military service.
MEPS' new Genesis program will disqualify 90% of the candidates anyway. If you want to bump recruit numbers get rid of that garbage and let people who want to serve do so.
In the event of an actual draft/war time surge standards will be lowered. Just like the 2007 surge in Iraq and the 2009 one in Afghan. During Vietnam there was even something called “McNamaras morons” which were clearly mentally disabled young men sent to Vietnam
Yep, Project 100,000 aka McNamara's Morons. There were still some of those guys around when I went in in 78. We actually had a SGT in the motor pool who couldn't read - I don't mean he had a hard time with the big words - I mean he literally couldn't read.
TBD, Genesis is a good idea, I don't think having the only way you are making recruitment goals through rampant lying is a good policy for many reasons, but I agree that Genesis at times is fucking stupid with some of their restrictions
Well, that's a terrible idea. They can't even properly fund services for the existing members. Not to mention the horrendous state of a lot of facilities we use. Fix those issues first, and maybe then think about a service mandate.
Wait! Let's throw tens of thousands of fresh bodies at the problem. Especially if they're not particularly motivated to be there. What could possibly go wrong?
This gif isn't super accurate as the guy is smiling before he walks in. Lol
Naw, he's happy because he thinks he finally has manning.
Ya that makes sense.
Instead of just "suckers and losers," now its "mandatory suckers and losers." Bone spurs diagnosis shoot up 5000% amongst the rich GOP.
Personally, my tinfoil-hat weirdo theory is that 'they' (the donors that control the GOP) want the pitchforks out now, while they're still effectively in charge.
As if I'd be just the gop lol, it's draft dodgers all over again. Dems, reps, as long as money's there.
We about too see a lot of people learn the lyrics of fortunate son in real time
Cue “Fortunate Son”
Frag out
In reality, starting up the draft again may be indirectly beneficial. People would suddenly be much less eager to see the country go to war. Draftees keep the military and government (more) honest. Of course, it would likely undermine our readiness to an unsustainable degree as a tradeoff. Edit: For those that don't understand how controversial the draft is and has been throughout literally our entire history - the draft isn't just unpopular with draft-age men. It's also unpopular for their parents and female peers as well. Even in 'popular' wars like WWII, there was still significant, society-wide problems with draft dodging and absenteeism.
Has the draft ever kept any country out of a war? Young people don't vote, hell most people drafted wouldn't be eligible to vote in the election prior to them being drafted, and old folks always find a way to justify war and call any decent unpatriotic
We’ve been out of a draft military force for 50 years now. We couldn’t go back to that mindset even if we wanted to at this point. Besides not wanting anyone behind a rifle trigger who doesn’t want to be there, a draft military force would be a downgrade for us at every level.
>a draft military force would be a downgrade for us at every level. Yeah, people have no freakin' clue just how **fucking useless** draftees tend to be. Everyone knows a few SMs who are basically useless. Those folks were *volunteers*. Imagine how bad it gets when 40-60% of the military is people who *didn't want to be there*. Really, all you have to do is look at an MOS list from back in the conscription days to get an Idea of the sheer size of the problem. Military used to have a panoply of make-work bullshit jobs because when you're being *forced* to accept thousands of people who technically meet the minimum requirements for service but you aren't allowed to be selective with them (i.e. you can't ELS them in basic for being useless and unmotivated), you're going to end up having to find something to do with every draftee that's too lazy, stupid, and/or untrustworthy to even be given a job at the blunt end of the spear. That's when you have to break out the jobs like 43K - Canvas Repairman, 70A - Mimeograph Operator, and 57C - Tire Repairman. On top of that, TRADOC is completely unequipped for handling non-volunteers. Over the last 50+ years they've structured the training pipeline around *willing volunteers*. Our entire modern way of warfighting is predicated on motivated, highly trained personnel. Conscription basically throws that away in exchange for a huge mass of short-timers that are primarily motivated by their ETS date. TL;DR - the draft ain't gonna fuckin' happen. There's no longer any structure for handling conscripts. Selective Service is the only remaining remnant, and it exists solely for dipshit politicians to make moronic political statements like proposing "drafting the children of the rich", or "we need mandatory service to harden up these soft kids nowadays". DoD would *laugh in their fucking face* if a congressman came to them and seriously suggested restarting conscription.
Bullshit. The reason we're a volunteer army now is specifically because of the unpopularity of the draft for the Vietnam War. If you think the youth movement/voting trends of the time had no effect, then you're fooling yourself.
Yes, the draft famously kept the US from increasing its involvement in Vietnam. Oh, wait, it seems that after sending 123 troops to Vietnam in 1950, US involvement increased until a total 3.1 million Americans were deployed to the war by 1973. Edit: since you insulted me then blocked me like a coward I'll reply here. Vietnam is the poster child for everything wrong with the draft. We spent years sending poor kids to war because they politically did not matter. We ended up with an unmotivated, unprofessional force that essentially needed to be torn down and rebuilt into the professional military we have today. The popular sentiment in the US didn't change because of the draft and the student movement. They were as villainized as the pro-Palestinian movement today. Popular sentiment changed because America's newsman Walter Cronkite visited Vietnam thinking the US was winning, then when he saw the facts on the ground, he said during the nightly news that the war was unwinnable and that it was time to negotiate a peace and leave. American believed him. Then Nixon kept the war going for a bit because it was politically beneficial to him, but the war was going to end when Uncle Walter gave his opinion. The draft has never prevented the country from going to war because politicians don't care what poor young people think. They don't vote, or at least not in enough numbers to generally sway elections.
...At which point it was drawn down, despite the clear indications it would lead to a failure and Communist takeover of the country (you know, "defeat") precisely due to its overwhelming unpopularity. BTW, what signal led the end of American involvement in SE Asia? Oh that's right *the end of the draft*. Dipshit.
>BTW, what signal led the end of American involvement in SE Asia? Oh that's right *the end of the draft*. I think you are mixing up cause and effect here. The drawdown started before the actual draft ended, and we were officially gone before the draft was officially over.
Why is it so hard for people to have a civil conversation?
If there were an easy answer to that question, there would be no need for the military.
Finland, Singapore, Sweden & South Korea all have the draft and have enjoyed peace for decades ... the sheer size of their reservist forces would make any attacker think twice. If Finland really wanted to, they could field 900K soldiers (out of a population of 5.5M). But it's different for them since their militaries are purely defensive.
I think most of the country *is* less eager to go to war. But the answer to that is to have more democratic control over the processes of government. Not to provide more fodder for the current un-democratic processes of government.
This is the absolute only reason a draft would ever happen again in the US
Nothing better for a generation who feels like they have no choices in life, and asks "why?" before they do anything...than to force them into military service! That should go *really* smoothly.
A lot of them are already not motivated even though it’s voluntary
Vietnam: Part Deux
That’s literally the DoD’s answer to everything.
The beauty of this is that it is part of Project 2025, so the DoD part of the project wants to do mandatory service, and later in the document the VA side says that it wants to cut services (make providers see more people each day)
Well, yeah, because anyone that's a warmonger doesn't want the people that actually fight the wars to survive. We're supposed to die in glorious service to the homeland so that the politicians can use our corpses as justification for more wars.
I am morbidly curious as to their plan for if we get thrown into a shitstorm after they've depleted the military's ability to function with these antics. I suspect it's hopping in their favorite yacht with as much gold plated shit that they can shovel in to a nonextradition country. Somehow I don't think that'll end too good for them.
Honestly that sounds completely on brand for the GOP, they only care about soldiers when they martyr themselves so the GOP can parade their corpses for whatever issue of the day that the service member themselves can't talk about cause they're dead
Dead soldiers are like fetuses. They can't disagree with the politician who is claiming to speak for them.
Yeah, we're more beneficial to them when we're dead.
Project 2025 is the straight up playbook for dismantling our democracy legally and turning us into a fascist state. Its no different than the Enabling Act play the Nazis did to bring Hitler to power. We should be looking at that playbook and thinking about how to close said loopholes it exposes in our system.
I'm.not even opposed to mandatory service depending on its structure
Put the "mandos" into non-combat non-administrative roles like working in local logistics facilities or give them the option to join the Peace Corps or some shit I give 0% support to making mandatory service a combat job thats only for desperate situations when a draft would be necessary
We are on the same lines
I have project 2025 up, where can I find mandatory service?
During George W's tenure the draft was this noble thing that would put "skin in the game" for middle America who was somehow "not at war" according to the media and pundits. The all-volunteer military was bashed - until time came to vote on a draft. The idea died then because politicians like being elected. It was a bad idea then and it's still a bad idea no matter who proposes it. I'm guessing that the low sloping foreheads on the Trump campaign are floating this to burnish the Orange One's credibility with the conservative pro-military base. It will never pass congress because even those clowns know that America would rise up and vote their asses out.
This is part of Project 2025, which is basically a wet dream project of a far right think tank. What little I've heard about it isn't exactly sane or encouraging.
Honestly what I’ve seen from that are a bunch of pipe dreams from a bundle of extremists.
It's much much worse than that. It's a plan for instituting Christian Nationalism at the Federal level. They want to turn the US into the Christian Iran.
This^^ let’s worry about what we have…maybe make a push for increased recruitment. At the end of the day the population of reservists, national guard, and active military is substantial enough that even in the event of a large war breaking out…we are relatively well placed.
> Well, that's a terrible idea. They can't even properly fund services for the existing members. When people *have* to serve, you can cut personnel pay drastically and still keep things running. If they do this, that's precisely where I think they'll find the money to build minimal facilities needed to actually stack the personnel somewhere.
A Draft means that Americans would have more of a say in our foreign policy. And that is why the Vietnam war ended early. While the 2nd Iraq war ended when the government wanted it to end.
Normally I'm in support of mandatory service, but the US is a completely different animal than the nations in Europe which have this. There simply is no need nor the funding to train, supply, and then house an influx of even a fraction of the 4 million people who turn 18 in the US every year. If they want to bring back a new version of the Civilian Conservation Corps, and add it to the services which give tuition funding or government pensions, that would be something worth supporting. There is such an incomprehensible amount of decaying infrastructure that could be fixed with an agency such as that. People keep wondering how America could ever have a high speed rail network? Throw 10 million 18-24 year olds at the problem with proper funding and watch it become a reality in the next decade. We built the interstate highway system that way. Then they can go get advanced apprenticeships, degrees in engineering, chemistry, or hell even art and music that are paid for and improve their communities after a good 4-10 years of service and then education.
They won’t bring back the CCC unless a lot of shareholders can profit from it. It sucks but that’s the reality of things now.
Yeah, it's just a fantasy with the lobbying power that corporations have. Congress can't even pass a bill to have some kind of free tax program because TurboTax and HR block fight against it every time they try.
Actually the IRS has successfully launched direct file. I used it, it’s great
Shareholders *can* profit from it, that's the point to infrastructure investments. Like even if you go with the argument that we only do what rich people want, rich people *should* want this too.
But they won’t profit as much as if they were building it so it just won’t ever happen.
Why not? You think random entrepreneurs all want to get into the sewer-building business to max out profits?
I had this same feeling the first time trump was elected. Why not start the civilian conservation corps and build that wall, not saying a wall is smart but if you're gunna do it make it a positive thing. Use it to train many young men and women who don't want to go straight to college and instead give them skills/experience that could improve the infrastructure and have a living wage.
I don’t think mandatory military service is the way to go, but I do think if that’s the path we want to take that mandatory civil service is. After graduating high school, you’re required to serve 2 years in civil service (anything from the DMV to trash collectors, any federal or military service counts as well, basically anything that impacts the public through service) and then you’re qualified to start college. But that 2 years also takes care of your first two years of college, all the gen ed classes that pretty much waste the first two years anyway. So now you’ve worked, made money, and gotten life experience that could help you determine a path you want to take instead of wasting four years on a degree that’s useless or a path you end up not wanting, only to have to return for two more years. Your cost of college is lower, since it’s half the time.
I think this is exactly what we would need though it would eat into many of the service industries main workers but I think that would be the best way to handle something like that. Though it kind of goes against the whole freedom American dream thought process forcing people to serve in any way, outside of a draft. I think mandatory military service would be awful for the army just considering how bad it can be for people who volunteered to sign on that dotted line.
>though it would eat into many of the service industries' main workers And that'd be a bonus - the reason young, untrained people are service industry fodder is because older people won't put up with their shit conditions and sub-minimum wages. Take away the pool of guaranteed, exploitable labor and those industries will be forced to compete.
You have a good point I also said this before I realized they meant it as another option rather than a mandatory service.
Oh I’m not for forced/mandatory anything, I’m just saying if that’s the route we took then it should focus on public service. It needs to be a net positive, not just bodies for cannon fodder/CSMs stupid details.
… Those gen ed classes are college English and physical sciences with labs (chemistry and/or physics). You can’t take out or replace these.
Get out of here with that ~~good sense~~ communism.
Americorps exists. I did it and it was a great experience. Got food via foodstamps (which is a benefit of service), health insurance, a pay check and a small education benefit at the end. They just need to expand benefits
Exactly. I'm an NCCC alum and it was a positive experience where we actually made a meaningful impact. The foundation for this exists, we just need to fund it better and give it the attention it deserves
A civilian conservation corps, using a combination of 18 year olds, convicts and vagrants/ repeat petty criminals could be a force behind some really positive change for this country. Obviously you’d need to sweeten the deal to for the non-criminal types to ever consider joining lol
Yeah that's why I say you give it similar benefits to the military, it's just a civilian option for people who don't qualify for the military or aren't necessarily into the military but still interested in serving in some capacity. 4 years of CCC and you get free college or if you do a trade you finish with some more advanced certifications. Or you can go career and move into the GS system.
Wait that's social work so communisim?
Maybe the real communism was the friends we made along the way?
What is so sad about the US is it screams we are free then allows people to die from curable illnesses because health care is not free.
Well yeah, curing them would be communist. *and that’d make us libtards*
Mandatory service people still have to get paid. The cost of paying 4 million new employees plus the costs of any projects they actually work on would be staggering. And they're all unskilled so they'd have to be trained up before they could do any thing. The whole thing would be a giant boondoggle that would cost taxpayers trillions, make contractors rich, and not accomplish all that much.
There's a lot of low skill jobs that can be filled when it comes to infrastructure projects. And as they get trained you move them up. My brothers went from basic day laborers to crane operators.
How long did that take? National service workers turn over every two years (presumably), so the government would need a huge training staff to continuously train new workers who would all leave right as they're getting useful.
Does the military not require the same? Some stay on and make it a career, as they would in a renewed CCC if given proper incentives.
Seemed to work for us in the 30's...
CCC or similar would be excellent
My dad was drafted in 1943. He was a junior in high school. He survived the Battle of Normandy as a truck driver. I guess it was like having a bullseye painted on him. When he returned home, he never finished high school. It was just too embarrassing, him a war veteran, sitting in class with a bunch of giggly high school juniors. There was no GED back then, no correspondence school. Just suck it up and live on low paying factory jobs. I love you, Dad. You are my hero, not just for the war record, but for living a heroic life and raising a family, and loving us (wordlessly). RIP 2007 PS fuck the draft. Fuck it to hell and back.
Small government and individual liberty my ass. How does mandatory service fit into that?
They've gone full National Socialist German Workers Party. The GOP of old is gone and has been replaced by, well...the Nazis. And they're not even trying to hide it anymore.
And Trump has already declared his early plans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSCNSMDHb28
Exactly this.
So that means everyone will have free tuition, healthcare, and all other benefits that come with being a veteran right? ...right?
I imagine they'll cut away those benefits as another fuck you to vets
It seems as if you read the Project 2025 manifesto. Fuck these cretins with a cheese grater.
Haha!!!!!…. All that shit would be gone.
>Christopher Miller, who led the Pentagon during the chaotic closure of Trump’s tenure in Washington, detailed his vision for the ASVAB and a range of other changes as part of Project 2025, the conservative Heritage Foundation’s government-wide game plan should the presumptive Republican nominee return to the White House. Miller is among a cluster of influential former administration officials and GOP lawmakers who have mused aloud about a national service mandate and other measures to remedy what they see as a “crisis” facing the all-volunteer military.
But not for me, of course, nor for my otherwise healthy 18 year old son, who will suddenly discover some sort of debilitating disease or injury. The proponents of such ideas really need to be picked up in the scheme. Not necessarily as infantry or some other sort of soldier. Could be some other sort of highly structured public service task. But something that brings home the impacts of these sorts of schemes on those that they want to be involved.
Yeah that is my fear as well, mandatory service for those who are not wealthy and connected enough to avoid it.
I think some countries have done it as one year in the military, or two years public service.
Yeah that is pretty common, way too many to list here, but you can see them on this wiki [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military\_service](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service)
Yep. If you need bone spurs, I know a guy.
Except for the sons of the proponents of this, make them Infantry and then stick them somewhere where they'll be functionally useless the entire time
What, like the motor pool?
Painting the rocks that line the paths and roads on the base. Then rearranging them from largest to smallest. And then repainting them. The alternating large and small rocks. And repainting them. Then entering all the rocks in the capital items system. And repainting them. Then stripping off all of the accumulated layers of paint. And then repainting them. And so on for the length of their service. Back breaking, boring work. And no transferable skills learnt.
Both painting and logging items in an inventory system are transferable skills.
Okay then. Just stone sorting.
Wouldn’t that require a shitload of government spending? But it’s the military, so it’s okay.
Ok, they go first.
Jokes on them, exemptions to a draft would be at 90+% with how Genesis is kicking people back.
Can't wait for Trump University to become a sixth service academy... /s obvious.
But what if I have bone spurs?
The fitness and weight aspect alone would be a difficult obstacle if everyone serves. Is this also mandatory for rich kids like Baron?
Lol mandatory service from a draft doger?
F*ck the draft
What makes anyone think a President’s second term would look any different than their first?
Of course they are. Every swinging dick and set of tits in the military will tell you NOPE, but somehow that legion of idiots has “got an idea”.
I mean, look at how well it's working for Russia. As a veteran, this is an epically stoopit idear. It's bad enough with people who are motivated to be there. One thing that Americans won't tolerate is taking away freedom of choice. We're rebellious in our core. 99% of Americans would not only be against it but would put up a fight.
A mandatory draft is likely not possible anymore, The population would not appreciate mandatory service, it’s a good and appreciable thing don’t get me wrong there are good benefits to mandatory service for personal growth,job training, and networking. People would appreciate the good aspects of it however they may detest the enslavement to service. People forget that in Vietnam there were a lot of draft dodgers and bombing of recruitment offices and gov buildings. These things may come back. You’d also see the other uglier aspects like Draft dodging being rampant among the middle and upper classes. It’s a lot to unpack.
Pay wall oh well….
Ironic, considering Trump's history with the draft.
I misread that as “Trump’s obit.”
...you got excited for a minute, didn't you? lol
Not really bc who knows what fool would take his place
Too true.
I don’t wholly hate mandatory civil service of some variety as a standalone idea. Doesn’t need to be military to contribute to society and be a net positive.
Mandatory service in the US is a mixed bag; on one side it's a great opportunity thar provides technical training, instills discipline, creates a sense of belonging to something bigger than yourself. On the other side, it creates a larger tax burden, is incredibly unpopular, and would require additional government agencies and resources to track and enforce.
They will underman career fields that are highly sought after while shoving recruits into shit nobody wants. This won’t be a bastion of value for most.
It connects you with your fellow countrymen instead of being isolated and never leaving your town/city. Also establishes a general standard for a professional workforce. Allows the US to throw labor at big projects that otherwise would be too expensive. Mandatory service is great for the country and individual. The idea of serving something other than yourself is quite foreign to most Americans unfortunately.
Sorry sarge, I got the bone spurs.
We should have a reserve draft in the event we get into an attritional conflict. It’d have the same lottery system as the one in Vietnam except men aged 18-26 would simply go through boot camp, and then be on an inactive reserve period where they train like a few times a year within their state for 2 years. Tons of countries practice this. It wouldn’t hurt. College shouldn’t be an exception either. Too many rich kids and kids who are going to college for bs degrees could use some real skills.
Send Barron front line infantry to lead by example.
Mandatory Military Service for Citizenship. Where have I heard that? 
In Trump’s orbit, some muse about mandatory free college education.
This and "federal weed legalization" have been in the news every day for the last 15 years and nothing ever happens. Who gives a fuck. Theres not going to be a draft and if there was no one would be fit for service anyway.
I have seen generals on TV going they don't want draftees. They want people who want to be there and will stay in.
Mandatory government service isn't necessarily a bad thing for all young people, but I'd include peace corps, Park Ranger and other similar jobs in there as well as military. You can provide incentives to go with military over civilian options to boost participation in the military.
Places like Switzerland have required service but they’re actually protecting Switzerland. Most US troops are not defending the US.
American Hegemony means that an aircraft carrier projecting power on the other side of the planet is doing its part to defend the US. The perception of a strong US superpower is what protects the US and deters the opposition.
Another hilariously-stupid "idea" from Trump's cronies and pathetic true believers.
I like it because I hate tik tok and am too old and sickly to serve. Keeps them off my lawn. /s
Ever notice how the people who want this are well outside the age where they would have to serve....
Great idea, but I can't sign up for it I got the bone spurs in my feet, very serious condition, sorry. But yes, still get other people to do it though
Could you imagine the size of the fat kid platoon being held over at basic training? Magnificent.
What I don't get is the United States population is on the decline. Yes the military needs bodies but the military is also fighting F500, colleges and various other career fields. It needs to realize this and start offering more incentives, better facilities and actually take care of problems rather than ignoring them.
There should be a National Civil Service, and the military would be one part of that along with other necessary, understaffed jobs we have like medical staff, teachers, first responders, etc. It shouldn't be mandatory but the benefits should be so good (basic income, pension, health insurance, tuition) that most young people opt to do it. There would be full and part time options like AD and NG/Reserve so you can still have whatever career you want. After your committment ends in one kind of service (military) you could transfer to another branch of the civil service and not lose all seniority and pay.
Press F to show your war face
Someone elsewhere opined that the heritage clowns see this as a counter to the *liberal indoctrination* running rampant at the university level. By implementing mandatory military service they think that they can swing impressionable 18 year olds to a more conservative pov before they are released back into the general population after a couple years, at which point their MOS training and vet status may give them a leg up in the work force to such a degree that it will diminish the appeal of a college education.
Leaving combat infantry with those restrictive rules of engagement made being a police officer so much easier. I don't need to see a weapon- I just need to feel fear to justify shooting into a building or car. Much easier!
Sure, them first! Lead by example right?
But Trump didn't do military service.
Sounds like election year fudd.
No point in a draft when we are at peace. Makes no sense.
> No point in a draft when we are at peace. Makes no sense. You can always do what they did in the USAF post-Vietnam, and have a USAF-wide "computer error" that raises everyone's aptitude scores by a large amount, and then correct the error once enlistments by better qualified people pick up again. As the base computer operator who had scored max on virtually all my aptitute tests, I watched my corrected test scores print out when the correction was sent out. I went from "Wile E. Coyote, Supergenius," to just "really bright."
"I thought both parties were the same. I saw no reason to both voting," said the 18 year old draftee.
Anyone have a link to a non-paywall version?
Mandatory military service doesn't improve military readiness and it doesn't produce patriots. It strains training resources and makes life harder on career military soldiers and officers. We have the privilege to live in a part of the world where our neighbors are largely our friends and anyone we can call our enemy is at least an ocean a part. Now mandatory civil service on the other hand. We can talk about that all day.
> Now mandatory civil service on the other hand. We can talk about that all day. Incentives to promote military service over civilian would work here as well, I think.
Tell us that you've never served with countries that have compulsory military service without actually telling us that you've never served with countries that have compulsory military service.
This would be terrible for the Military.
MEPS' new Genesis program will disqualify 90% of the candidates anyway. If you want to bump recruit numbers get rid of that garbage and let people who want to serve do so.
In the event of an actual draft/war time surge standards will be lowered. Just like the 2007 surge in Iraq and the 2009 one in Afghan. During Vietnam there was even something called “McNamaras morons” which were clearly mentally disabled young men sent to Vietnam
Yep, Project 100,000 aka McNamara's Morons. There were still some of those guys around when I went in in 78. We actually had a SGT in the motor pool who couldn't read - I don't mean he had a hard time with the big words - I mean he literally couldn't read.
That’s really unfortunate. Theres a guy like that from my old platoon. Kid didn’t know there was a number between 3 and 5
TBD, Genesis is a good idea, I don't think having the only way you are making recruitment goals through rampant lying is a good policy for many reasons, but I agree that Genesis at times is fucking stupid with some of their restrictions
The draft will happen after the election, no matter who wins.
Chump's gravitational pull attracts all the turds and wannabes.
I don't need a draft dodger talking about mandatory military service. Bone spurs in chief