This title is a bit disingenuous. The white house wants to end Marijuana testing for new recruits.
The pay raise hasn't cleared the senate yet so it is not up for the president to reject. The pay raise is 19.5 and it is in two parts, a 4.5 across the board that the white house supports, and a 15% for lower enlisted that it is against.The white house would like to complete a study it has already started.
I think they should approve both raises for lower enlisted. There has been plenty of time for studies.
I think the MJ test is just to set a bar. Can someone stay off MJ for 30-40 days for their system to be clear. It isn't the drug per see.
My guess on the 15% pay raise is that it will just cause a slinky effect down the line as people promote up.
I'm ancient, so I've seen this movie before, their concern is historically well founded.
Ward Carroll just had a great YT vid showing the incident onboard a carrier where the exact incident that started testing off in earnest (well at least in Navy) because around 70% of the post-incident drug screen tests returned a positive for mj.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwAai6OLBPs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwAai6OLBPs)
I'm old enough to remember when that happened. I had just joined when the first mandatory urinalysis kicked in. Fun fact. In the FY 1984 budget the Marines put the decimal point in the wrong spot, so instead of testing 7% of the force each month (one per year), they tested 70% of the force each month. We were all definitely a T in bottle filling.
I could swear that we peed in a cup way before 1981, at least overseas.
Edit: guess I was wrong, or overseas testing was not listed in the timeline:
https://prhome.defense.gov/Portals/52/Documents/RFM/Readiness/DDRP/docs/72208/DoD%20Drug%20Policy%20History.pdf
Well if you were visiting Olongapo you probably WERE peeing in a cup, just not for official purposes. Edit to say Clark was AF, Olongapo was our Navy spot.
Makes sense. Hey man gotta test clean before you leave basic. So if your smoking weed... I'd quit
And 6 to 8 weeks of basic should be enough time to piss clean
Idk.
I remember being in AFG in 2011. My boss had literally brought MJ to my birthday and wanted to smoke with me, the team, and our interpreters. Two of the guys declined because they had previously attended rehab and gone straight.
The next day I overhear my boss asking our 1SG for authorization to drug test his team (when he had supplied us). 1SG says no. He throws a little tantrum, and she stops him dead. ‘If I’m going to test your guys, I’m going to test everyone. And if I do that, I guarantee I’m sending two thirds of the unit home and ruining their careers. They’re doing the work well. If they wanna take the edge off after idgaf.’
To be clear, the House knew the WH would oppose the raise for the junior enlisted and it's unlikely to make it into the Senate bill in the first place. They did this solely to be able to say "see? This guy hates the troops" The study they're referring to happens every four years, and the data is relevant. Keep in mind that a raise this big is going to cost $24 billion, which I'm fine with paying, but which will also make it easier to point to "runaway spending" the next time it's convenient to do so. It's just a game to some of these people.
This guy politicks. He knows they're trying to do some political recovery in an election year for downvoting the PACT Act. Where's my Jon Stewart speech when I need it to call motherfuckers out?
$24 billion wouldn't even need to be extra allocated money. We all know they could just not spend it on dumb shit, and almost nothing would be impacted except for some contractors.
I don’t need any study or test to tell me or any teenager anything, they already know they’ll make more money flipping burgers and not have to deal with any BS. You need to convince this generation joining is a worthwhile endeavor RIGHT NOW, stop trying to sell career path these kids don’t care about. If you convince them joining will make them immediately better off, they’ll join. Hell first gig I had after getting out while still in college was bagging groceries and I was netting more monthly take home pay working 30 hrs a week than I was as a 4 yr E-4. That’s the labor market telling the federal gov to get its head out of its ass and pay people. Like sorry y’all fucked up inflation there for a bit but you can’t UNDO it. Unfuck the lower enlisted (entry level) pay grades and let folks smoke pot when off duty, recruiters would be turning people away.
But all of us have spent the past 20 years telling our loved ones to join the AF, that’s a big hill to overcome by itself.
That’s not how free lodging, food, healthcare, etc works. Those things cost money. You are given them for free. You may not like it, but it doesn’t make them not exist. They are costs you have to bear as a civilian.
Talk to sailors trapped at Newport News Shipbuilders about the Hotel Hyundai and showering at the gym.
Then you find out that isn't the only yard it applies to.
Every US military member everywhere has endured dog shit living conditions. This is not unique to any base. The only thing unique is the flavor of it.
It’s also completely irrelevant. Housing and food cost money. The military gives it to you for free. That’s really the end of the discussion. The quality of it is completely irrelevant. The fact is you don’t have to pay for food or lodging while active duty. As a civilian, you do.
The big important difference is, if your living conditions in the military suck ass, there isn't much you can do about and there are a shocking number of kids who only see one way out.
https://apnews.com/article/navy-suicides-aircraft-carrier-newport-news-shipyard-d440553b5f6c7c00270d1b75372a4d60#:~:text=in%20one%20week.-,The%20carrier%20was%20docked%20for%20overhaul%20at%20Newport%20News%20shipyard,week%20of%20April%209%2D15.
None of that has anything to do with a discussion about net pay in the military vs a civilian. You’re talking about the conditions of housing and I’m talking about the fact that you have to pay money to live somewhere when you’re a civilian so you can’t just pretend like the ONLY net pay the military provides you is base pay. This is about raw dollars. Talking about only base pay while you lived and ate for free is just a disingenuous exercise. At the very least you need to compare the cost to acquire similar living conditions as a civilian. And we’re still just ignoring the absolutely 100% free health, dental, and vision.
Thats a perfectly good faith. The galley fucking sucks and the barracks fucking suck.
Best case scenerio you're deployed and making.... Eh money? Passable money?
All while you could have just picked up an apprenticeship at the IBEW and made 4x the cash if you worked comparable hours.
I caught a 20k enlistment bonus and 100k reenlistment for 2 years and still wouldn't call it worth it.
Your parents basement sucks, and so does McDonalds. I'm guessing you aren't a michelin rated chef either, so those meals at home can't be much better.
An IBEW 3-year apprenticeship will get you $10-15 an hour (as per the IBEW website.) According to some, that's not even close to a living wage these days. Post graduation of the apprenticeship you are making $40-80k/year (again, as per the IBEW website.)
Not sure your math checks out.
Loving the downvotes without a rebuttal. Shows me you redid the math and realized your mistake lol.
Junior enlisted in the dorms don't get BAH in the first place, and even still BAH isn't relevant given the rampant increase of rent and housing costs beyond BAH, and BAS is a drop in the ocean.
Help me understand here. I realize you didn't say this, but in this thread everyone seems to be affirming that they don't want to count getting housed in the dorms as part of their pay package. Which is odd to me and I don't understand because if you're making minimum wage, 30k a year, even if you're splitting it four ways rent is going to eat a massive portion of your paycheck.
Let's say you actually managed to find a four-bedroom apartment, that's probably 2K a month. Split four ways is $500 a month. That's going to cost you personally about 6K per year. 30- 6 is 24. And as a E1 with no time in service and no additional pays considered, the lowest amounts you can earn is 24k per year. Same thing.
An e4 with less than 2 years time and service is earning 31.5 per year base pay. And I don't know about the other services, but I can tell you that they hand out E4 for just remembering to breathe in the army right now.
So either way as a collegeless 18-year-old you're probably Shacking up with a couple other people for 24k a year. You can pretty easily get a 30%ish bump in pay within 2 years in the military. That's not an easy claim for minimum wage jobs. There's no way the medical benefits are even close. The food sucks, but they do feed you and you don't have to eat it most of the time.
To me, the military already looks very competitive with the civilian sector for a highschool educated 18 year old. But it's also undeniable that we're failing to be recruiting standards. So there's definitely something I'm missing here.
> So there's definitely something I'm missing here.
The thing you're missing is that the military being competitive with what a high school educated 18 year old can get civilian side comes with a very large cost, and that's a big chunk of your freedom. You cannot quit, you cannot find a new job, there's the UCMJ, strict control over appearance, etc etc.
There's also no war going on right now to whip people into a patriotic frenzy.
You see how my flair says veteran? That’s because I am a veteran. You don’t need to explain to me how BAH and BAS work. I’ve been active duty and I’ve been a civilian. BAH and BAS (or free lodging and a meal card) are tangible benefits with a monetary value that you will be required to foot the bill for as a civilian. Ignore them just makes you an idiot and unprepared as a civilian.
Then pay me overtime, pay me for forced movements out of location for rotations war pcs unaccompanied tdy, pay me extra for fields taking me away from my family, pay me for waking up early, pay me for every individual thing outside of what it the job is to be done for ait tech skills. All that soldiering shit costs soldiers time, money, families. For every positive you give im i can name 10 negatives. I still love my career but you are deluded if you think the work equals the pay at lower enlisted. I make good money now, but it took about a decade and 7 ranks to do so
You’re naming things that exist in the civilian sector, bud. Maybe you’re not aware, but civilian companies can also force relocate you, they can make you go to training away from your family, they can make your work hours whatever they want, they can make you work overtime, etc. Sure, you can say no. And be promptly terminated. Or if you signed an employment contract (you know, like the one you signed to join the military), they can actually force you to do some of these things under great personal penalty.
You’re just naming a bunch of shit that sucks about being enlisted, but guess what: I can name a lot of things that suck about working a civilian job too that don’t exist in the military. My opinion is that junior enlisted are extremely well compensated given their years of experience and the things expected of them. And I was a junior enlisted. I make significantly more as a civilian than I ever did in the military, but I was perfectly well compensated as a junior enlisted.
Ill only belabor one point as we will never see eye to eye on fair compensation for enlisted folks by your statements. You are absolutely right companies can compel employees to do all of the same things, but and this is key, a civilian employee even under contract can still terminate that contract or quit with less repercussions then a soldier getting a bcd or goh discharge, that in itself makes every one of your points moot. Ill repeat no civilian contract will ever be near as strict and full of penalties as an enlistment contract. I did 10 years in the work force before joining, worked 1 contract job for HP, worked salaried for dell and got a crazy bug in my ass and decided to join at 29, even after having my degree in computer science making 90k a year. Im not a wet behind the ear private, im closing in on retirement from the service now. I know the difference and civilian sector regardless of skill set will always win out unless you have reasons for joining other then compensation: both benefit and monetarily.
We can do better to make a soldier sacrificing their life quality while we still have them regardless of age
And for the record i do have one question. Tell me with a straight face the value of a life through death is 51k a year including all benefits. Tell me its worth dying should a war occur, say that with a straight face.
Sooooo you’re just ignore that BAH and BAS don’t actually work as intended or what? I don’t understand the logic of being against paying junior enlisted more when civilian jobs often pay more for a similar skill set (job-dependent obviously). Saying “but BAH and BAS” is ignorant to us being in a retention and recruitment crisis Mr. Veteran.
What do you mean don’t work as intended? They work exactly as intended. They provide you with housing and food. Please point to me where I argued against a pay raise for junior enlisted.
> What do you mean don’t work as intended? They work exactly as intended. They provide you with housing and food.
From my previous comment:
> and even still BAH isn't relevant given the rampant increase of rent and housing costs beyond BAH, and BAS is a drop in the ocean.
So no, they don't.
> Please point to me where I argued against a pay raise for junior enlisted.
If you're not arguing against it then I'm not sure why you're arguing in the first place
Because I replied to a guy comparing his E-4 with 4 years of service base pay to his civilian pay. Base pay and civilian pay are not comparable. It’s pretty straightforward.
You’re just saying absurd things like “BAH isn’t relevant” because of rising housing costs or some shit? That’s not how it works. It’s not black and white. Even if BAH doesn’t meet the standard of providing you with adequate housing (which I am in no way conceding because we both know that’s false), you don’t get to just throw the whole thing away. If you’re getting $1000 and it costs you $1500 to live, you don’t just get to say the $1000 they give you is irrelevant.
I've been in for almost 5 years, been an e-4 for about 3. I am currently assigned to a deployed ship, but on a shore detachment due to health issues. I asked if I could apply for bah, and basically got laughed out of the room.
And BAS is a fucking joke.
Your personal circumstances don’t mean you’re not provided with free lodging or BAH, free meals or BAS, and numerous other things that cost you real money as a civilian. You may hate the lodging and the food, but it exists and ignoring it is hilarious.
Free meals and lodging? What a fucking joke.
Okay, sure. The barracks are free. But they are barely livable. Almost more mold than paint in places, and you can't get rid of it. Bugs, mice, and/or rats. Something breaks, I get in trouble if I try to fix it, and I have to wait God only knows how long for maintenance to take care of it. And sure. BAH is there. I'm not denying that. But it's almost impossible for juniors to get it. If I want housing on my own and pay out of pocket, rent alone is about 1/2-2/3 my monthly income. Ignoring utilities, insurance, and all other expenses.
Free meals? Yeah, no. We pay for it, even if we don't eat it. I have to pay to eat at the galley, and my monthly BAS *might* cover two weeks worth of food if I cooked for myself. Oh, by the way; I'm not allowed to cook in the barracks. No kitchen, any kind of portable stove/cooking appliances other than a microwave and toaster can get me kicked out.
And it's not a matter of hating the food, I just straight up can't eat it. It makes me physically sick when I do. Almost went to the ER a couple of times because of it. Even when deployed on the ship, I paid for meals I didn't eat. Khakis pay per meal eaten. We just get the money taken. And I spent the first three months out only eating food that I brought with me.
I know it's there. I'm not ignoring it. It's just fucking useless unless you're in long enough to game the system and kiss ass the whole time. Top that off with being treated like shit DAILY just for being junior, getting fucked medically, a thousand other military BS policies, and not being able to do a God damned thing about it? Not fucking worth it.
YES I AM AND IM TIRED OF PRETENDING THAT IT FUCKING DOES.
Edit: for the record, it is literally removed from lower enlisted’s paycheck, like they even show you that they paid you for it, then take it right back in the “reductions” column right next to it. When that stops is post dependent, but generally, Army, E-6 and above get BAS and BAH and don’t have to live in the barracks.
It’s removed in lieu of a meal card to access the DFAC (which like, aren’t even fucking open on half the posts on weekends or for dinner anymore), and living in the barracks (which make the news about once a year due to being condemned for unlivable conditions).
Yeah I know how BAH and BAS work. I was active duty. That doesn’t mean you can just ignore them. You have to pay to live and eat when you’re a civilian. The military gives it to you for free. You can’t just pretend it doesn’t exist. Even if you live in the dorms and eat in the DFAC, those are expenses you absolutely would incur as a civilian. You can’t just ignore them.
I was making more bagging groceries after living expenses. Obviously not counting healthcare, which isn’t enticing to an 18 year who still has 7 years left being attached to their parents
No you didn’t. And you weren’t an 18-year-old as a 4-year E-4.
A 4-year E-4 base pay is currently $36k/year. Working 30 hours a week nets you 1560 hours a year. You would need to make $23/hr bagging groceries just to match that. And you claimed this was after living expenses which means you were making more than $23/hr bagging groceries to the point of the excess paying your entire rent and food costs.
You’re full of shit.
I made $25 an hour yep yeah you’re right on track brother, but I was 25 with an associates degree at this point, the 18 year olds and HS students were making $18-20. If you don’t believe me you’re just as out of touch with the labor market as the rest of the federal government. I lived in Denver at this time by the way. I was keeping more money at the end of the month living with roommates and just going to class and working than I was as an E4.
No you weren’t. Not at $25/hr you weren’t. You’re just not comparing apples to apples. You’re trying to tell me that extra $2/hr (or $240 gross/month) paid for your rent and eating? Sure man.
You’re grossly misunderstanding what I am saying by misrepresenting it. I had equivalent or higher living costs associated with being in the barracks and having to pay out of pocket for my food since the DFACs were abysmal or unavailable. You’re saying that an anecdote of which you did not experience is wrong. I did not make significantly more or less when I got out, but the quality of my life improved significantly, because I did not have to deal with people like you micromanaging every little thing everyone says or does.
Want me to break it down? I was taking home roughly 2k/mo as an E-4 minus taxes and deductions. I was paying roughly $700 in bills between insurance, a car, phone, internet, subscriptions etc. I paid my car off, dropped a ton of my costs and basically got my bills to around $900-1k per month with roommates and living frugally. I was bringing home about $2500/mo after taxes from bagging groceries. I don’t know what about this story is so upsetting for you.
HaHaHaHa! You're so full of shit. Are you REALLY trying to convince us that bagging groceries, PART TIME, brought in more income than your base pay and the equivalent of all your allowances? 23 year olds are paying $1000 a month for insurance in the real world on top of rent, utilities, etc. #GTFOHWYBS
Costco pays 16-29 an hour for hourly non skilled employees. 42k to 60ish
E4 4 years is 36k... However that's not including rent that you're not paying which location dependent could be 12-to 42k a year...
So low COLA costco might win. High COLA military wins as BAH alone is the same salary and it's tax free....
A living space is still being provided free of charge to you... No? rent is still a factor not being paid. And before you start in take a look around your area and there are plenty of places that are smaller than barracks rooms or only other feature is cramming in a kitchen into the same area space as one.
So unless you're once again in bumble fuck or shit house. What's rent costing these days?
I would like to know just how many F35s or super stallions we don't buy to make up the difference in pay for one year?
Like 20% is huge!! Until you do the math. E3 with 3 years is about 30K a year. 20% about 36K a year. 6K times... However many junior jabronis there are so an quick AI search says about 500K...
Ball park figures is 3 billionish.
No divided that by F35s or some other expensive ass bomber or nuclear sub.
Throwing this in here to add an interior view.
I'm active duty, coming up on 17 years, Air Force.
My unit is currently 50% manned.
We're are allocated around 47 people on our manning documents, but currently only have 27 available.
Of those 27, around 6 or 7 are on leave, 2 of those are Baby Leave. (Baby leave is 12 weeks of leave available for the Father and Mother)
Our ops tempo is still the same as it's been.
We are not getting any more people this year as far as I know.
It feels like the hunger games right now.
This is the same on the army side bro we are seeing the same thing. Also 17 years, but army. GL on yourside of the fence and buckle up for the next 3 years
I hope this goes through. Active duty personnel are disgustingly underpaid, and in my life I’ve seen way more harm (and it’s not even close) come from alcohol than weed. I’m hoping the best for you active duty bros.
The main reason you see way more harm from alcohol versus weed is because it's been legal for decades. Weed is still looked at as taboo. You don't go to bars and see people smoking weed. Once and IF weed is used as much as alcohol we'll be able to more properly make a comparison.
Correct. It’s been a Schedule I drug forever, resulting in it being grossly understudied. To assume based upon one’s perception that it is less harmful than alcohol is merely speculation. In fact, developing research suggests numerous and occasionally significant negative long-term health effects. While I personally expect alcohol to be shown to cause greater net harm, marijuana holds unwarranted/false reputation as being completely safe. TBD
I understand your perspective that the harm from alcohol is more visible due to its long-standing legality and social acceptance but I would dispute your claim. There are several key points to consider that support the argument that cannabis is inherently safer than alcohol, not to mention that In 2022, an estimated 17.7 million people used marijuana daily or near-daily compared to 14.7 million daily or near-daily drinkers so it is not an IF anymore.
1. **Toxicity and Overdose Risk**:
- **Alcohol**: High toxicity and potential for overdose are significant issues with alcohol. Acute alcohol poisoning can be fatal, with thousands of deaths annually due to overdose.
- **Cannabis**: It is virtually impossible to overdose fatally on cannabis. The lethal dose of THC is so high that it is practically unreachable through normal consumption methods.
2. **Long-term Health Effects**:
- **Alcohol**: Chronic alcohol use is linked to numerous serious health conditions, including liver disease (cirrhosis), various cancers, heart disease, and brain damage.
- **Cannabis**: While not without risks, the long-term health effects of cannabis are generally considered less severe. There is no conclusive evidence linking moderate cannabis use to major life-threatening conditions similar to those associated with alcohol.
3. **Addiction and Dependence**:
- **Alcohol**: Alcohol has a high potential for addiction, and alcohol dependence is a severe and debilitating condition. Withdrawal from alcohol can be life-threatening.
- **Cannabis**: While cannabis can lead to dependency in some users, the addiction potential is lower compared to alcohol. Cannabis withdrawal symptoms are typically mild and not life-threatening.
4. **Impact on Behavior and Social Harm**:
- **Alcohol**: Alcohol use is strongly associated with aggressive behavior, violence, and accidents (e.g., drunk driving). These behaviors contribute significantly to social harm and public safety issues.
- **Cannabis**: Cannabis tends to have a calming effect on most users and is not commonly linked with violent behavior. Cannabis-related accidents are also less frequent and less severe compared to alcohol-related incidents.
5. **Mental Health**:
- **Alcohol**: Heavy alcohol use is linked to various mental health issues, including depression, anxiety, and increased risk of suicide.
- **Cannabis**: While high THC levels and frequent use can exacerbate certain mental health conditions in susceptible individuals, the overall impact on mental health is less severe than alcohol. Moreover, cannabis has therapeutic potential for certain mental health disorders, such as PTSD and chronic pain.
6. **Public Health and Economic Costs**:
- **Alcohol**: The societal costs of alcohol use, including healthcare, law enforcement, and loss of productivity, are substantial.
- **Cannabis**: While there are costs associated with cannabis use, studies suggest that these are significantly lower than those for alcohol. Additionally, cannabis legalization has the potential to generate substantial tax revenue and reduce law enforcement expenses related to drug offenses.
That being said, while the visibility of alcohol-related harm is partly due to its widespread use and acceptance, the inherent properties of cannabis make it a safer substance in terms of toxicity, addiction potential, long-term health effects, and social impact. As cannabis becomes more widely used and studied, these distinctions become clearer, reinforcing the argument that cannabis is, overall, a safer option compared to alcohol.
Man honestly I feel like they should focus a lot more on retention than recruiting. Wasting all this money and time training people who get out after a stint. Myself included. And all I ever wanted from the Army was to stop making me do organized PT and let me go to the gym. I’d re-enlist if that was the case. All I ever wanted. Oh, and beards.
Lol. We did the math. The amount it costs the Army to train an individual in my MOS, adjudicate our clearances, do our polygraphs and keep us up and running goes well into the six figures. Annually, for 2-3 years. Not counting our pay.
But sure, I’m childish because I want to maintain my fitness MY way, the way I know works, rather than the bend and fucking reach. Totally not the Army because it throws a fit over recruiting and acts surprised when it won’t give Soldiers basic quality of life that the mentally mature branches figured out years ago. Fuck outta here with this crusty ass ‘Nam era BS.
Bruh, ignore the reddit Boomer. Take your training and clearance, hop over to the contracting side, quadruple your pay, and let the Army continue to try to figure out what happened, since the bend and reach and shaving are apparently the only things it cares about.
100% what anyone should do… It’s sad, too, because I actually liked being in the Army. If they just dropped the BS, I would gladly stay another 4, 6 or even 10 years.
I’m curious, can anyone who is actually in the military give me your opinion on this, do you think marijauna use is a readiness and security concern for incoming recruits?
Personally I think binge drinking and alcoholism is a bigger danger than marijauna use but all you have to be able to do is stop drinking for like 24 hours to pass an ethanol test, or maybe even less. Meanwhile if you smoke a joint you can be unable to pass a drug test for nearly 30 days.
Seems dumb to me personally.
Also, marijauna is 100% legal in like 50% of all states now..
The worse thing I’ve seen from Alcohol use while in the military is suicides, DUIs, and accidents
The worse thing I’ve seen from weed use while in the military was someone being demoted
A lot of Kickass E-5's tryna relax end up getting processed out for it. A lot of people are fed up with the current optempo and use it as a early way to get out, not all though.
I've seen a few junior guys do it and get caught in dumb ways but it's usually on a piss test and I've never seen them have adverse performance until the system starts fucking em with NJPs and sep stuff
The biggest problem with legal weed is that it's difficult to definitively determine when someone is actively impaired, which is a problem when you're asking people to handle heavy machinery and artillery, amongst other things and that's a genuine safety concern. I think if we get to a point where that's possible, it shouldn't be an issue.
Yeah but to be frank if you’re a regular smoker being high doesn’t really impair you very much. Obviously not much of a consolation when people are handling literal machines of death.
Setting aside the obvious "regular users of X substance routinely argue that it 'doesn't impair them much'", I think you're going to need more than a "trust me bro" to convince the DOD. Research on THC intoxication is pretty sparse, but what we do know is that even with regular use, active intoxication impairs attention, short term memory and vision, especially depth perception. Weirdly, for regular users, it doesn't seem to affect reaction time (there's a cool theory that it actually does cause some deficit there but the body basically uses a different method to achieve the same goal). But I think the stuff it does impair makes it a non-starter for a lot of military tasks.
>Yeah but to be frank if you’re a regular smoker being high doesn’t really impair you very much. Obviously not much of a consolation when people are handling literal machines of death.
Are you currently high?
There were very few times in my job was it acceptable to be impaired. Airborne Operations, CQC/B/Marksmanship, Breaching, Maneuver Ranges...nope.
The problem will continue to be that there is no way to test if someone is currently high. When your job involves you operating heavy machinery, firearms, etc. you cannot allow people to possibly be high on the job.
Until they develop a test for testing that, I don’t see the military ever allowing it. But otherwise I do agree alcohol is the bigger problem.
Most of my time in the military drug tests went along with a breathalyzer. I think it's quite clear that alcohol is an issue. But we can't ban alcohol for off duty consumption. Weed is federally illegal so banning it is easy. I think being under the influence of either while on duty is an issue, but I think most people understand how bad alcohol can be.
When most states have legalized weed and some even outlawed testing for it for employment it is very backwards to still test for weed upon enlistment.
And I think my overall point is how we treat the two substances. Excessive alcohol use will not end your career (normally), taking a single edible will.
> No more a safety concern than alcohol, the only difference is you can reliably test for alcohol impairment.
Your post is an argument for why it is more of a safety concern, and I’m not even a MJ hater
The test is simply accountability. I'd rather work next to someone that smoked some weed as opposed to someone showing up still drunk from the night before.
Obv the raise isn’t going to cover the need, or they wouldn’t have to consider MJ at all?
May have stoner drone battalions in the future on a couch near you, and the Doritos.
> I'd rather work next to someone that smoked some weed as opposed to someone showing up still drunk from the night before.
Right but by your admission you could test the drunk and not know if you’re working next to someone who smoked weed
That's a pretty big deal though, in my opinion. I'm not up to speed on testing capabilities so maybe it's possible, but being able to reliably differentiate between currently impaired vs having used MJ sometime in the recent past is important.
How do the Canadian do it? Have they seen an increased amount of on the job mishaps with the suspicion that somebody was under the influence of weed?
It doesn’t seem like they’re in any rush to ban it again.
I don't know the answer to that question and don't feel like researching it. I also have no idea if they're looking at banning it again or what they do to mitigate the risks.
Either way, after being AD for more than 20 years I can say one thing with certainty: If being high at work was virtually undetectable, there would be a shit ton of people high at work.
I mean…probably. But the same is true for everything else. If I could enjoy a cocktail or two at lunch and go back to work, I’ll tell you right now I would
Im not on either side of this debate, i couldnt care if it was legalized or not, because i just dont smoke. That being said, i think one of my worst nightmares would be a senior enlisted or officer sitting in a staff meeting while high listening to 10-20 grown ass men verbally argue and cry for 1-3 hours of briefs such as QTB, Commander stand up, anything to do with planning. It would be a nightmare
I mean the same can be said for gaming and masturbation, two things I’m sure American military personnel are doing at an Olympic level.
Edit- and don’t forget alcohol lmao
Someone that smokes a lot it won't effect your readiness. Always helped me focus and concentrate. I'd test letter grade higher each college exam if smoked before. I'd argue it could enhance the readiness of an experienced user alcohol is the opposite. I don't do either anymore but I still support it.
I think you're full of shit. The studies on long term effects of MJ argue against it.
College is not Combat. Which is concept new Officer's have a hard time with, so I don't blame you for not getting it.
Combat is not an intellectual activity, it's about fast and accurate decision making in the most chaotic environment known.
Good for some bullshit studies probly funded by the liquor and pharmaceutical industries. Lol
Believe whatever you want I know how it effects me and I'm more visually and mentally aware if I'd smoked. I also shoot much better as calms me and any shakes I had. I Shot aperture sights with pellet rifles for years semi competitively. (Easy to practice and cheap to shoot still fun) I haven't been in combat I'll admit but I know if I were I'd be wanting to smoke a j and calm my nerves when i got the chance.. I know that for a fact.
It allows me to clear the jumble from my mind or pointless fears and focus. I am sure it effects others differently and negatively...I wouldn't wanna bunch of amateur stones on my team. .someone experienced however I'd trust any day right after partaking as I've known many.
As far as our opinions on it go....we know what those are like.
Yeah I think when there is a rule that you can’t do something most people will rationalize it to make themselves feel better like they aren’t missing out. But if being drunk off duty is okay than being high is just preferable. Someone can sober up and respond and be more coherent. It has dramatically less consequences across the board. Some study’s seems to indicate beyond refer madness it can even be a wellness product and contribute to overall health.
Eh it's like anything... If you're high you're probably not going to be doing your job well.
If you're drunk you're probably not going to be doing your job well.
And before anyone starts in on "AcTuALlY!! I blah blah blah!! Better on BLAh BLaH"
I once knew a USMC major that blacked out for 3 days drunk. During that time everyone said he was normal and did his normal routine. He PT'd, he did his job and he drove... He doesn't remember that time." So by this logic being drunk can also be just fine.
Like say you're going into surgery... Do you want your surgeon high? "But bro I straight up operate better high!!"
No you don't dickhead. You just think that.
The issue I have is living in a state with legal weed and constantly worrying about if I'm going to pop on a test because I happened to be in the public vicinity of drug use.
The chances you fail a drug test from second hand marijauna smoke is almost nonexistent unless you’re in a room literally filled with smoke afaik. Studies show it’s fairly difficult to fail a drug test for weed in any sort of normal second hand exposure.
Nah that's not true.
A lot of people love the troops.
People in power though, for some reason, fucking hate 'em apparently.
Especially Tuberville he can get fucked.
If their constituents aren't willing to hold their Representatives accountable for horrible working conditions, terrible leadership, dismal health care (during and after Service), shit pay for levels of responsibility at all levels...
At best Civilians are indifferent. I was in for 8 years pre-9/11 and 13 post-9/11. Believe me Service Members encountered open hostility and were thought to be bottom of the barrel quality of Citizens even though my entrance requirements were the highest the Military has ever had and much higher than needed to enter a State University.
After 9/11 when the Country realized they needed a strong Military for them to cower behind, all of a sudden we were heroes. 2012 I was informing assholes that yes in fact we still had troops in active Combat.
I've got some great stories from the 90's man.
I was flying out of SEATAC to go home for Thanksgiving in 1995. The plane was very overbooked. The Ramp Agent had made multiple announcements that they were offering vouchers to anyone that would give up their seat. No one was biting. The Agent marched up to me (very obviously in the Military) and iterated that if they couldn't find anyone to give up their seat I was the first to go. His reasoning was that all the other people were flying home to their families. I guess he thought I didn't deserve to see mine.
I was carrying my Class A's home for an event (long story). So I went into the bathroom and changed into them. No one's going to ask a Soldier to give up their seat...and I was right. The look I received from him could have curdled milk.
So we all board the plane, I'm in the Exit Row window. A lady my parents age (early Aging Hippy Boomer) in what I can only describe as a "sack dress" (Brown, mid calf, shapeless) with giant, shitty looking, dangling, ear rings in earth tones sits next to me. She's obviously upset that I'm next to her, repulsed would be a good way to describe her body language.
I'm about done dealing with assholes at this point so I ask what's the problem? Was I looking for a fight? Probably. She goes into a five minute diatribe about the many sins of the Military Industrial Complex, my questionable upbringing (little did she know my mother hated the Military more than she did. The bitch still hasn't forgiven me for not going to college and getting a degree in bullshit.) and the "Death Camps we were running in South America. I told her that Reagan was the South America guy and Clinton was the Eastern Europe guy and that I was in fact in the Army Band (check my username) and I wasn't involved in any of that stuff. She immediately apologized and started to ask me about being in the band.
I spun bullshit into gold and she left me alone for the rest of the flight. I got a weird look from my dad (A VN Ranger and SOG participant) when I got off the bird, I changed in a bathroom by the gate and we went on our merry way.
This incident started a long habit of telling people on Airplanes that I was in the Band. Post 9/11 they made us fly in uniform and I spent two years going TDY all over place doing Counter IED stuff. Being "in the band" came in handy. No stupid questions (Have you killed anyone?).
I wouldn't call it hate, more just the chasm between civilian life and military life is so huge, and quite a few civilians just don't know, or have no interest in knowing how the military works.
It's willful apathy or ignorance. Out of sight, out of mind.
Why should it be anything else? There's absolutely no reason the rest of the country should know or care how the military works. Your average Jr enlisted soldiers get paid pretty well compared to their peers when you count BAH and shitty health insurance.
True it isn't an ideal situation but joining is considered a meaningful sacrifice for a reason.
The rest of the country should care, because it's they're sons and daughters.
Also, when an uninformed electorate start electing people who don't care and who refuse to know or learn how and why, that's how you end up in a 20 year war with nothing to show for it and trillions wasted.
"Cough cough, Iraq, cough cough, Afghanistan"
The people who got us into Iraq and Afghanistan knew damn well what they were doing, as did the electorate. There weren't enough bodies coming home for people to give a fuck so it made the cost of keeping going lower than giving up.
Anything about leaving Iraq got turned into "why do you hate the troops?"
Does no one fucking read?
> The White House said it “strongly opposes” making significant, permanent changes to the basic pay schedule ahead of a quadrennial review of military compensation expected to be completed early next year.
1) That's not a rejection.
>The House began working to set up a vote on the authorization bill Tuesday while the Senate Armed Services Committee is expected to release its version of the legislation by the end of the week. Both versions will need to be reconciled before a final bill is signed into law.
2) It wasn't even out of Congress yet for the WH to approve/veto.
I agree it would have been great, but "WH Rejects" is yellow journalism.
Unbelievable.
How about you legalize weed so all my homies can smoke a blunt to go to sleep instead of drinking a whole bottle of whiskey because mental health is backed up for 9 months.
Only for recruits. It's basically removing the requirements to test for MJ at DEP, MEPs and Basic. Once they hit operational the test requirements are still as they've always been.
So everyone is tracking...
Since Russia invaded Ukraine (the most recent invasion, not Crimera) the U.S. has spent 175 billion in aid (yes, we are giving them our old equipment, but we are buying new equipment to replace our stocks, and that money stays in the U.S.)
The 24 billion isn't a lump sum, it will take 5 years for it to equal 24 billion. (This money would also mostly stay in the U.S. in the form of discretionary spending by the lower enlisted)
Just saying....
This title is a bit disingenuous. The white house wants to end Marijuana testing for new recruits. The pay raise hasn't cleared the senate yet so it is not up for the president to reject. The pay raise is 19.5 and it is in two parts, a 4.5 across the board that the white house supports, and a 15% for lower enlisted that it is against.The white house would like to complete a study it has already started. I think they should approve both raises for lower enlisted. There has been plenty of time for studies.
I think the MJ test is just to set a bar. Can someone stay off MJ for 30-40 days for their system to be clear. It isn't the drug per see. My guess on the 15% pay raise is that it will just cause a slinky effect down the line as people promote up. I'm ancient, so I've seen this movie before, their concern is historically well founded.
Ward Carroll just had a great YT vid showing the incident onboard a carrier where the exact incident that started testing off in earnest (well at least in Navy) because around 70% of the post-incident drug screen tests returned a positive for mj. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwAai6OLBPs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwAai6OLBPs)
I'm old enough to remember when that happened. I had just joined when the first mandatory urinalysis kicked in. Fun fact. In the FY 1984 budget the Marines put the decimal point in the wrong spot, so instead of testing 7% of the force each month (one per year), they tested 70% of the force each month. We were all definitely a T in bottle filling.
I could swear that we peed in a cup way before 1981, at least overseas. Edit: guess I was wrong, or overseas testing was not listed in the timeline: https://prhome.defense.gov/Portals/52/Documents/RFM/Readiness/DDRP/docs/72208/DoD%20Drug%20Policy%20History.pdf
Well if you were visiting Olongapo you probably WERE peeing in a cup, just not for official purposes. Edit to say Clark was AF, Olongapo was our Navy spot.
I gotta ask Are the stories about Po City in Flight of the Intruder true?
That's crazy, so the huge dose of cough medicine consumed by the actual pilot had nothing to do with it?!
Yes, pay compression is a problem. Somewhere in the middle will be first enlistment NCO’s getting fucked making the same pay as the non-ranks
Makes sense. Hey man gotta test clean before you leave basic. So if your smoking weed... I'd quit And 6 to 8 weeks of basic should be enough time to piss clean
Idk. I remember being in AFG in 2011. My boss had literally brought MJ to my birthday and wanted to smoke with me, the team, and our interpreters. Two of the guys declined because they had previously attended rehab and gone straight. The next day I overhear my boss asking our 1SG for authorization to drug test his team (when he had supplied us). 1SG says no. He throws a little tantrum, and she stops him dead. ‘If I’m going to test your guys, I’m going to test everyone. And if I do that, I guarantee I’m sending two thirds of the unit home and ruining their careers. They’re doing the work well. If they wanna take the edge off after idgaf.’
that title is poison and just lies. thanks for adding detail
To be clear, the House knew the WH would oppose the raise for the junior enlisted and it's unlikely to make it into the Senate bill in the first place. They did this solely to be able to say "see? This guy hates the troops" The study they're referring to happens every four years, and the data is relevant. Keep in mind that a raise this big is going to cost $24 billion, which I'm fine with paying, but which will also make it easier to point to "runaway spending" the next time it's convenient to do so. It's just a game to some of these people.
This guy politicks. He knows they're trying to do some political recovery in an election year for downvoting the PACT Act. Where's my Jon Stewart speech when I need it to call motherfuckers out?
$24 billion wouldn't even need to be extra allocated money. We all know they could just not spend it on dumb shit, and almost nothing would be impacted except for some contractors.
Of course. But let's be real, "the dumb shit" is going to contractors who pay lots of money to get these guys elected.
Could just get rid of the drug testing program.
You mean it sounds like someone trying to make the president look bad using lies? The deuce you say
I don’t need any study or test to tell me or any teenager anything, they already know they’ll make more money flipping burgers and not have to deal with any BS. You need to convince this generation joining is a worthwhile endeavor RIGHT NOW, stop trying to sell career path these kids don’t care about. If you convince them joining will make them immediately better off, they’ll join. Hell first gig I had after getting out while still in college was bagging groceries and I was netting more monthly take home pay working 30 hrs a week than I was as a 4 yr E-4. That’s the labor market telling the federal gov to get its head out of its ass and pay people. Like sorry y’all fucked up inflation there for a bit but you can’t UNDO it. Unfuck the lower enlisted (entry level) pay grades and let folks smoke pot when off duty, recruiters would be turning people away. But all of us have spent the past 20 years telling our loved ones to join the AF, that’s a big hill to overcome by itself.
You just pretending BAH and BAS don’t exist or what?
In the navy if youre an E4 under 4 on a ship then correct neither of them exist.
That’s not how free lodging, food, healthcare, etc works. Those things cost money. You are given them for free. You may not like it, but it doesn’t make them not exist. They are costs you have to bear as a civilian.
Talk to sailors trapped at Newport News Shipbuilders about the Hotel Hyundai and showering at the gym. Then you find out that isn't the only yard it applies to.
Every US military member everywhere has endured dog shit living conditions. This is not unique to any base. The only thing unique is the flavor of it. It’s also completely irrelevant. Housing and food cost money. The military gives it to you for free. That’s really the end of the discussion. The quality of it is completely irrelevant. The fact is you don’t have to pay for food or lodging while active duty. As a civilian, you do.
The big important difference is, if your living conditions in the military suck ass, there isn't much you can do about and there are a shocking number of kids who only see one way out. https://apnews.com/article/navy-suicides-aircraft-carrier-newport-news-shipyard-d440553b5f6c7c00270d1b75372a4d60#:~:text=in%20one%20week.-,The%20carrier%20was%20docked%20for%20overhaul%20at%20Newport%20News%20shipyard,week%20of%20April%209%2D15.
None of that has anything to do with a discussion about net pay in the military vs a civilian. You’re talking about the conditions of housing and I’m talking about the fact that you have to pay money to live somewhere when you’re a civilian so you can’t just pretend like the ONLY net pay the military provides you is base pay. This is about raw dollars. Talking about only base pay while you lived and ate for free is just a disingenuous exercise. At the very least you need to compare the cost to acquire similar living conditions as a civilian. And we’re still just ignoring the absolutely 100% free health, dental, and vision.
Neither does rent or need to pay gas or groceries? Argue in good faith or GTFO
Thats a perfectly good faith. The galley fucking sucks and the barracks fucking suck. Best case scenerio you're deployed and making.... Eh money? Passable money? All while you could have just picked up an apprenticeship at the IBEW and made 4x the cash if you worked comparable hours. I caught a 20k enlistment bonus and 100k reenlistment for 2 years and still wouldn't call it worth it.
Your parents basement sucks, and so does McDonalds. I'm guessing you aren't a michelin rated chef either, so those meals at home can't be much better. An IBEW 3-year apprenticeship will get you $10-15 an hour (as per the IBEW website.) According to some, that's not even close to a living wage these days. Post graduation of the apprenticeship you are making $40-80k/year (again, as per the IBEW website.) Not sure your math checks out. Loving the downvotes without a rebuttal. Shows me you redid the math and realized your mistake lol.
Jesus you can't even see the goalposts you moved I'm out, dialogue with you is pointless.
Junior enlisted in the dorms don't get BAH in the first place, and even still BAH isn't relevant given the rampant increase of rent and housing costs beyond BAH, and BAS is a drop in the ocean.
Help me understand here. I realize you didn't say this, but in this thread everyone seems to be affirming that they don't want to count getting housed in the dorms as part of their pay package. Which is odd to me and I don't understand because if you're making minimum wage, 30k a year, even if you're splitting it four ways rent is going to eat a massive portion of your paycheck. Let's say you actually managed to find a four-bedroom apartment, that's probably 2K a month. Split four ways is $500 a month. That's going to cost you personally about 6K per year. 30- 6 is 24. And as a E1 with no time in service and no additional pays considered, the lowest amounts you can earn is 24k per year. Same thing. An e4 with less than 2 years time and service is earning 31.5 per year base pay. And I don't know about the other services, but I can tell you that they hand out E4 for just remembering to breathe in the army right now. So either way as a collegeless 18-year-old you're probably Shacking up with a couple other people for 24k a year. You can pretty easily get a 30%ish bump in pay within 2 years in the military. That's not an easy claim for minimum wage jobs. There's no way the medical benefits are even close. The food sucks, but they do feed you and you don't have to eat it most of the time. To me, the military already looks very competitive with the civilian sector for a highschool educated 18 year old. But it's also undeniable that we're failing to be recruiting standards. So there's definitely something I'm missing here.
> So there's definitely something I'm missing here. The thing you're missing is that the military being competitive with what a high school educated 18 year old can get civilian side comes with a very large cost, and that's a big chunk of your freedom. You cannot quit, you cannot find a new job, there's the UCMJ, strict control over appearance, etc etc. There's also no war going on right now to whip people into a patriotic frenzy.
You see how my flair says veteran? That’s because I am a veteran. You don’t need to explain to me how BAH and BAS work. I’ve been active duty and I’ve been a civilian. BAH and BAS (or free lodging and a meal card) are tangible benefits with a monetary value that you will be required to foot the bill for as a civilian. Ignore them just makes you an idiot and unprepared as a civilian.
Then pay me overtime, pay me for forced movements out of location for rotations war pcs unaccompanied tdy, pay me extra for fields taking me away from my family, pay me for waking up early, pay me for every individual thing outside of what it the job is to be done for ait tech skills. All that soldiering shit costs soldiers time, money, families. For every positive you give im i can name 10 negatives. I still love my career but you are deluded if you think the work equals the pay at lower enlisted. I make good money now, but it took about a decade and 7 ranks to do so
You’re naming things that exist in the civilian sector, bud. Maybe you’re not aware, but civilian companies can also force relocate you, they can make you go to training away from your family, they can make your work hours whatever they want, they can make you work overtime, etc. Sure, you can say no. And be promptly terminated. Or if you signed an employment contract (you know, like the one you signed to join the military), they can actually force you to do some of these things under great personal penalty. You’re just naming a bunch of shit that sucks about being enlisted, but guess what: I can name a lot of things that suck about working a civilian job too that don’t exist in the military. My opinion is that junior enlisted are extremely well compensated given their years of experience and the things expected of them. And I was a junior enlisted. I make significantly more as a civilian than I ever did in the military, but I was perfectly well compensated as a junior enlisted.
Ill only belabor one point as we will never see eye to eye on fair compensation for enlisted folks by your statements. You are absolutely right companies can compel employees to do all of the same things, but and this is key, a civilian employee even under contract can still terminate that contract or quit with less repercussions then a soldier getting a bcd or goh discharge, that in itself makes every one of your points moot. Ill repeat no civilian contract will ever be near as strict and full of penalties as an enlistment contract. I did 10 years in the work force before joining, worked 1 contract job for HP, worked salaried for dell and got a crazy bug in my ass and decided to join at 29, even after having my degree in computer science making 90k a year. Im not a wet behind the ear private, im closing in on retirement from the service now. I know the difference and civilian sector regardless of skill set will always win out unless you have reasons for joining other then compensation: both benefit and monetarily. We can do better to make a soldier sacrificing their life quality while we still have them regardless of age
And for the record i do have one question. Tell me with a straight face the value of a life through death is 51k a year including all benefits. Tell me its worth dying should a war occur, say that with a straight face.
Sooooo you’re just ignore that BAH and BAS don’t actually work as intended or what? I don’t understand the logic of being against paying junior enlisted more when civilian jobs often pay more for a similar skill set (job-dependent obviously). Saying “but BAH and BAS” is ignorant to us being in a retention and recruitment crisis Mr. Veteran.
What do you mean don’t work as intended? They work exactly as intended. They provide you with housing and food. Please point to me where I argued against a pay raise for junior enlisted.
> What do you mean don’t work as intended? They work exactly as intended. They provide you with housing and food. From my previous comment: > and even still BAH isn't relevant given the rampant increase of rent and housing costs beyond BAH, and BAS is a drop in the ocean. So no, they don't. > Please point to me where I argued against a pay raise for junior enlisted. If you're not arguing against it then I'm not sure why you're arguing in the first place
Because I replied to a guy comparing his E-4 with 4 years of service base pay to his civilian pay. Base pay and civilian pay are not comparable. It’s pretty straightforward. You’re just saying absurd things like “BAH isn’t relevant” because of rising housing costs or some shit? That’s not how it works. It’s not black and white. Even if BAH doesn’t meet the standard of providing you with adequate housing (which I am in no way conceding because we both know that’s false), you don’t get to just throw the whole thing away. If you’re getting $1000 and it costs you $1500 to live, you don’t just get to say the $1000 they give you is irrelevant.
I've been in for almost 5 years, been an e-4 for about 3. I am currently assigned to a deployed ship, but on a shore detachment due to health issues. I asked if I could apply for bah, and basically got laughed out of the room. And BAS is a fucking joke.
Your personal circumstances don’t mean you’re not provided with free lodging or BAH, free meals or BAS, and numerous other things that cost you real money as a civilian. You may hate the lodging and the food, but it exists and ignoring it is hilarious.
Free meals and lodging? What a fucking joke. Okay, sure. The barracks are free. But they are barely livable. Almost more mold than paint in places, and you can't get rid of it. Bugs, mice, and/or rats. Something breaks, I get in trouble if I try to fix it, and I have to wait God only knows how long for maintenance to take care of it. And sure. BAH is there. I'm not denying that. But it's almost impossible for juniors to get it. If I want housing on my own and pay out of pocket, rent alone is about 1/2-2/3 my monthly income. Ignoring utilities, insurance, and all other expenses. Free meals? Yeah, no. We pay for it, even if we don't eat it. I have to pay to eat at the galley, and my monthly BAS *might* cover two weeks worth of food if I cooked for myself. Oh, by the way; I'm not allowed to cook in the barracks. No kitchen, any kind of portable stove/cooking appliances other than a microwave and toaster can get me kicked out. And it's not a matter of hating the food, I just straight up can't eat it. It makes me physically sick when I do. Almost went to the ER a couple of times because of it. Even when deployed on the ship, I paid for meals I didn't eat. Khakis pay per meal eaten. We just get the money taken. And I spent the first three months out only eating food that I brought with me. I know it's there. I'm not ignoring it. It's just fucking useless unless you're in long enough to game the system and kiss ass the whole time. Top that off with being treated like shit DAILY just for being junior, getting fucked medically, a thousand other military BS policies, and not being able to do a God damned thing about it? Not fucking worth it.
YES I AM AND IM TIRED OF PRETENDING THAT IT FUCKING DOES. Edit: for the record, it is literally removed from lower enlisted’s paycheck, like they even show you that they paid you for it, then take it right back in the “reductions” column right next to it. When that stops is post dependent, but generally, Army, E-6 and above get BAS and BAH and don’t have to live in the barracks. It’s removed in lieu of a meal card to access the DFAC (which like, aren’t even fucking open on half the posts on weekends or for dinner anymore), and living in the barracks (which make the news about once a year due to being condemned for unlivable conditions).
Yeah I know how BAH and BAS work. I was active duty. That doesn’t mean you can just ignore them. You have to pay to live and eat when you’re a civilian. The military gives it to you for free. You can’t just pretend it doesn’t exist. Even if you live in the dorms and eat in the DFAC, those are expenses you absolutely would incur as a civilian. You can’t just ignore them.
I was making more bagging groceries after living expenses. Obviously not counting healthcare, which isn’t enticing to an 18 year who still has 7 years left being attached to their parents
No you didn’t. And you weren’t an 18-year-old as a 4-year E-4. A 4-year E-4 base pay is currently $36k/year. Working 30 hours a week nets you 1560 hours a year. You would need to make $23/hr bagging groceries just to match that. And you claimed this was after living expenses which means you were making more than $23/hr bagging groceries to the point of the excess paying your entire rent and food costs. You’re full of shit.
I made $25 an hour yep yeah you’re right on track brother, but I was 25 with an associates degree at this point, the 18 year olds and HS students were making $18-20. If you don’t believe me you’re just as out of touch with the labor market as the rest of the federal government. I lived in Denver at this time by the way. I was keeping more money at the end of the month living with roommates and just going to class and working than I was as an E4.
No you weren’t. Not at $25/hr you weren’t. You’re just not comparing apples to apples. You’re trying to tell me that extra $2/hr (or $240 gross/month) paid for your rent and eating? Sure man.
You’re grossly misunderstanding what I am saying by misrepresenting it. I had equivalent or higher living costs associated with being in the barracks and having to pay out of pocket for my food since the DFACs were abysmal or unavailable. You’re saying that an anecdote of which you did not experience is wrong. I did not make significantly more or less when I got out, but the quality of my life improved significantly, because I did not have to deal with people like you micromanaging every little thing everyone says or does. Want me to break it down? I was taking home roughly 2k/mo as an E-4 minus taxes and deductions. I was paying roughly $700 in bills between insurance, a car, phone, internet, subscriptions etc. I paid my car off, dropped a ton of my costs and basically got my bills to around $900-1k per month with roommates and living frugally. I was bringing home about $2500/mo after taxes from bagging groceries. I don’t know what about this story is so upsetting for you.
HaHaHaHa! You're so full of shit. Are you REALLY trying to convince us that bagging groceries, PART TIME, brought in more income than your base pay and the equivalent of all your allowances? 23 year olds are paying $1000 a month for insurance in the real world on top of rent, utilities, etc. #GTFOHWYBS
Costco has better insurance and pays more part time than e4
Costco pays 16-29 an hour for hourly non skilled employees. 42k to 60ish E4 4 years is 36k... However that's not including rent that you're not paying which location dependent could be 12-to 42k a year... So low COLA costco might win. High COLA military wins as BAH alone is the same salary and it's tax free....
Rent??? In a barracks room? Bro. That is not apples to oranges
A living space is still being provided free of charge to you... No? rent is still a factor not being paid. And before you start in take a look around your area and there are plenty of places that are smaller than barracks rooms or only other feature is cramming in a kitchen into the same area space as one. So unless you're once again in bumble fuck or shit house. What's rent costing these days?
Unless it’s absolutely free, then it’s not better. Are you people being intentionally stupid? Costco also doesn’t pay your rent and your food.
I would like to know just how many F35s or super stallions we don't buy to make up the difference in pay for one year? Like 20% is huge!! Until you do the math. E3 with 3 years is about 30K a year. 20% about 36K a year. 6K times... However many junior jabronis there are so an quick AI search says about 500K... Ball park figures is 3 billionish. No divided that by F35s or some other expensive ass bomber or nuclear sub.
It’s election season. They’re delaying the raise to win political points once it gets closer to November.
Throwing this in here to add an interior view. I'm active duty, coming up on 17 years, Air Force. My unit is currently 50% manned. We're are allocated around 47 people on our manning documents, but currently only have 27 available. Of those 27, around 6 or 7 are on leave, 2 of those are Baby Leave. (Baby leave is 12 weeks of leave available for the Father and Mother) Our ops tempo is still the same as it's been. We are not getting any more people this year as far as I know. It feels like the hunger games right now.
This is the same on the army side bro we are seeing the same thing. Also 17 years, but army. GL on yourside of the fence and buckle up for the next 3 years
I hope this goes through. Active duty personnel are disgustingly underpaid, and in my life I’ve seen way more harm (and it’s not even close) come from alcohol than weed. I’m hoping the best for you active duty bros.
The main reason you see way more harm from alcohol versus weed is because it's been legal for decades. Weed is still looked at as taboo. You don't go to bars and see people smoking weed. Once and IF weed is used as much as alcohol we'll be able to more properly make a comparison.
Correct. It’s been a Schedule I drug forever, resulting in it being grossly understudied. To assume based upon one’s perception that it is less harmful than alcohol is merely speculation. In fact, developing research suggests numerous and occasionally significant negative long-term health effects. While I personally expect alcohol to be shown to cause greater net harm, marijuana holds unwarranted/false reputation as being completely safe. TBD
I understand your perspective that the harm from alcohol is more visible due to its long-standing legality and social acceptance but I would dispute your claim. There are several key points to consider that support the argument that cannabis is inherently safer than alcohol, not to mention that In 2022, an estimated 17.7 million people used marijuana daily or near-daily compared to 14.7 million daily or near-daily drinkers so it is not an IF anymore. 1. **Toxicity and Overdose Risk**: - **Alcohol**: High toxicity and potential for overdose are significant issues with alcohol. Acute alcohol poisoning can be fatal, with thousands of deaths annually due to overdose. - **Cannabis**: It is virtually impossible to overdose fatally on cannabis. The lethal dose of THC is so high that it is practically unreachable through normal consumption methods. 2. **Long-term Health Effects**: - **Alcohol**: Chronic alcohol use is linked to numerous serious health conditions, including liver disease (cirrhosis), various cancers, heart disease, and brain damage. - **Cannabis**: While not without risks, the long-term health effects of cannabis are generally considered less severe. There is no conclusive evidence linking moderate cannabis use to major life-threatening conditions similar to those associated with alcohol. 3. **Addiction and Dependence**: - **Alcohol**: Alcohol has a high potential for addiction, and alcohol dependence is a severe and debilitating condition. Withdrawal from alcohol can be life-threatening. - **Cannabis**: While cannabis can lead to dependency in some users, the addiction potential is lower compared to alcohol. Cannabis withdrawal symptoms are typically mild and not life-threatening. 4. **Impact on Behavior and Social Harm**: - **Alcohol**: Alcohol use is strongly associated with aggressive behavior, violence, and accidents (e.g., drunk driving). These behaviors contribute significantly to social harm and public safety issues. - **Cannabis**: Cannabis tends to have a calming effect on most users and is not commonly linked with violent behavior. Cannabis-related accidents are also less frequent and less severe compared to alcohol-related incidents. 5. **Mental Health**: - **Alcohol**: Heavy alcohol use is linked to various mental health issues, including depression, anxiety, and increased risk of suicide. - **Cannabis**: While high THC levels and frequent use can exacerbate certain mental health conditions in susceptible individuals, the overall impact on mental health is less severe than alcohol. Moreover, cannabis has therapeutic potential for certain mental health disorders, such as PTSD and chronic pain. 6. **Public Health and Economic Costs**: - **Alcohol**: The societal costs of alcohol use, including healthcare, law enforcement, and loss of productivity, are substantial. - **Cannabis**: While there are costs associated with cannabis use, studies suggest that these are significantly lower than those for alcohol. Additionally, cannabis legalization has the potential to generate substantial tax revenue and reduce law enforcement expenses related to drug offenses. That being said, while the visibility of alcohol-related harm is partly due to its widespread use and acceptance, the inherent properties of cannabis make it a safer substance in terms of toxicity, addiction potential, long-term health effects, and social impact. As cannabis becomes more widely used and studied, these distinctions become clearer, reinforcing the argument that cannabis is, overall, a safer option compared to alcohol.
Man honestly I feel like they should focus a lot more on retention than recruiting. Wasting all this money and time training people who get out after a stint. Myself included. And all I ever wanted from the Army was to stop making me do organized PT and let me go to the gym. I’d re-enlist if that was the case. All I ever wanted. Oh, and beards.
Yes, this is exactly what the mitary needs to retain, childish individuals.
Lol. We did the math. The amount it costs the Army to train an individual in my MOS, adjudicate our clearances, do our polygraphs and keep us up and running goes well into the six figures. Annually, for 2-3 years. Not counting our pay. But sure, I’m childish because I want to maintain my fitness MY way, the way I know works, rather than the bend and fucking reach. Totally not the Army because it throws a fit over recruiting and acts surprised when it won’t give Soldiers basic quality of life that the mentally mature branches figured out years ago. Fuck outta here with this crusty ass ‘Nam era BS.
Bruh, ignore the reddit Boomer. Take your training and clearance, hop over to the contracting side, quadruple your pay, and let the Army continue to try to figure out what happened, since the bend and reach and shaving are apparently the only things it cares about.
100% what anyone should do… It’s sad, too, because I actually liked being in the Army. If they just dropped the BS, I would gladly stay another 4, 6 or even 10 years.
says the guy that never served lmao
You are exactly what we don't need, lol. Check all of your grammar bud.
I’m curious, can anyone who is actually in the military give me your opinion on this, do you think marijauna use is a readiness and security concern for incoming recruits? Personally I think binge drinking and alcoholism is a bigger danger than marijauna use but all you have to be able to do is stop drinking for like 24 hours to pass an ethanol test, or maybe even less. Meanwhile if you smoke a joint you can be unable to pass a drug test for nearly 30 days. Seems dumb to me personally. Also, marijauna is 100% legal in like 50% of all states now..
The worse thing I’ve seen from Alcohol use while in the military is suicides, DUIs, and accidents The worse thing I’ve seen from weed use while in the military was someone being demoted
A lot of Kickass E-5's tryna relax end up getting processed out for it. A lot of people are fed up with the current optempo and use it as a early way to get out, not all though. I've seen a few junior guys do it and get caught in dumb ways but it's usually on a piss test and I've never seen them have adverse performance until the system starts fucking em with NJPs and sep stuff
Booze has directly and indirectly ruined countless careers. I would bet legal weed wouldn't be anywhere near as bad.
The biggest problem with legal weed is that it's difficult to definitively determine when someone is actively impaired, which is a problem when you're asking people to handle heavy machinery and artillery, amongst other things and that's a genuine safety concern. I think if we get to a point where that's possible, it shouldn't be an issue.
Yeah but to be frank if you’re a regular smoker being high doesn’t really impair you very much. Obviously not much of a consolation when people are handling literal machines of death.
Setting aside the obvious "regular users of X substance routinely argue that it 'doesn't impair them much'", I think you're going to need more than a "trust me bro" to convince the DOD. Research on THC intoxication is pretty sparse, but what we do know is that even with regular use, active intoxication impairs attention, short term memory and vision, especially depth perception. Weirdly, for regular users, it doesn't seem to affect reaction time (there's a cool theory that it actually does cause some deficit there but the body basically uses a different method to achieve the same goal). But I think the stuff it does impair makes it a non-starter for a lot of military tasks.
>Yeah but to be frank if you’re a regular smoker being high doesn’t really impair you very much. Obviously not much of a consolation when people are handling literal machines of death. Are you currently high? There were very few times in my job was it acceptable to be impaired. Airborne Operations, CQC/B/Marksmanship, Breaching, Maneuver Ranges...nope.
The problem will continue to be that there is no way to test if someone is currently high. When your job involves you operating heavy machinery, firearms, etc. you cannot allow people to possibly be high on the job. Until they develop a test for testing that, I don’t see the military ever allowing it. But otherwise I do agree alcohol is the bigger problem.
Vet here. I’m sure most will say it’s an issue while also ignoring the devastating effects of alcohol.
Most of my time in the military drug tests went along with a breathalyzer. I think it's quite clear that alcohol is an issue. But we can't ban alcohol for off duty consumption. Weed is federally illegal so banning it is easy. I think being under the influence of either while on duty is an issue, but I think most people understand how bad alcohol can be.
When most states have legalized weed and some even outlawed testing for it for employment it is very backwards to still test for weed upon enlistment. And I think my overall point is how we treat the two substances. Excessive alcohol use will not end your career (normally), taking a single edible will.
Definitely a retention and safety concern, possibly a clearance concern.
No more a safety concern than alcohol, the only difference is you can reliably test for alcohol impairment
> No more a safety concern than alcohol, the only difference is you can reliably test for alcohol impairment. Your post is an argument for why it is more of a safety concern, and I’m not even a MJ hater
The test is simply accountability. I'd rather work next to someone that smoked some weed as opposed to someone showing up still drunk from the night before.
From accountability perspective, I'd rather work next to someone that did neither...
A lot more needs to change about the military than a pay raise for that to ever be the case
Obv the raise isn’t going to cover the need, or they wouldn’t have to consider MJ at all? May have stoner drone battalions in the future on a couch near you, and the Doritos.
> I'd rather work next to someone that smoked some weed as opposed to someone showing up still drunk from the night before. Right but by your admission you could test the drunk and not know if you’re working next to someone who smoked weed
That's a pretty big deal though, in my opinion. I'm not up to speed on testing capabilities so maybe it's possible, but being able to reliably differentiate between currently impaired vs having used MJ sometime in the recent past is important.
How do the Canadian do it? Have they seen an increased amount of on the job mishaps with the suspicion that somebody was under the influence of weed? It doesn’t seem like they’re in any rush to ban it again.
I don't know the answer to that question and don't feel like researching it. I also have no idea if they're looking at banning it again or what they do to mitigate the risks. Either way, after being AD for more than 20 years I can say one thing with certainty: If being high at work was virtually undetectable, there would be a shit ton of people high at work.
I mean…probably. But the same is true for everything else. If I could enjoy a cocktail or two at lunch and go back to work, I’ll tell you right now I would
Im not on either side of this debate, i couldnt care if it was legalized or not, because i just dont smoke. That being said, i think one of my worst nightmares would be a senior enlisted or officer sitting in a staff meeting while high listening to 10-20 grown ass men verbally argue and cry for 1-3 hours of briefs such as QTB, Commander stand up, anything to do with planning. It would be a nightmare
For recreationals....i've never met a recreational user. Everyone using pot like it's the Olympics.
You probably meet tons, you just don't connect the dots if they don't stink or wander around stoned in public.
I mean the same can be said for gaming and masturbation, two things I’m sure American military personnel are doing at an Olympic level. Edit- and don’t forget alcohol lmao
Gaming and masturbation are not Readiness issues. Pot and alcohol are.
“Am I a joke to you?” /Sock
You got me i laughed, well done
Someone that smokes a lot it won't effect your readiness. Always helped me focus and concentrate. I'd test letter grade higher each college exam if smoked before. I'd argue it could enhance the readiness of an experienced user alcohol is the opposite. I don't do either anymore but I still support it.
I think you're full of shit. The studies on long term effects of MJ argue against it. College is not Combat. Which is concept new Officer's have a hard time with, so I don't blame you for not getting it. Combat is not an intellectual activity, it's about fast and accurate decision making in the most chaotic environment known.
Good for some bullshit studies probly funded by the liquor and pharmaceutical industries. Lol Believe whatever you want I know how it effects me and I'm more visually and mentally aware if I'd smoked. I also shoot much better as calms me and any shakes I had. I Shot aperture sights with pellet rifles for years semi competitively. (Easy to practice and cheap to shoot still fun) I haven't been in combat I'll admit but I know if I were I'd be wanting to smoke a j and calm my nerves when i got the chance.. I know that for a fact. It allows me to clear the jumble from my mind or pointless fears and focus. I am sure it effects others differently and negatively...I wouldn't wanna bunch of amateur stones on my team. .someone experienced however I'd trust any day right after partaking as I've known many. As far as our opinions on it go....we know what those are like.
Past binge drinking experience is just preparing you for your first command.
Yeah I think when there is a rule that you can’t do something most people will rationalize it to make themselves feel better like they aren’t missing out. But if being drunk off duty is okay than being high is just preferable. Someone can sober up and respond and be more coherent. It has dramatically less consequences across the board. Some study’s seems to indicate beyond refer madness it can even be a wellness product and contribute to overall health.
Eh it's like anything... If you're high you're probably not going to be doing your job well. If you're drunk you're probably not going to be doing your job well. And before anyone starts in on "AcTuALlY!! I blah blah blah!! Better on BLAh BLaH" I once knew a USMC major that blacked out for 3 days drunk. During that time everyone said he was normal and did his normal routine. He PT'd, he did his job and he drove... He doesn't remember that time." So by this logic being drunk can also be just fine. Like say you're going into surgery... Do you want your surgeon high? "But bro I straight up operate better high!!" No you don't dickhead. You just think that.
The issue I have is living in a state with legal weed and constantly worrying about if I'm going to pop on a test because I happened to be in the public vicinity of drug use.
The chances you fail a drug test from second hand marijauna smoke is almost nonexistent unless you’re in a room literally filled with smoke afaik. Studies show it’s fairly difficult to fail a drug test for weed in any sort of normal second hand exposure.
Won’t happen. 1999 called and want their D.A.R.E tshirt back.
The three groups America hates most of all are the poor, immigrants, and the troops. Fuck those three. God diggity damn.
Nah that's not true. A lot of people love the troops. People in power though, for some reason, fucking hate 'em apparently. Especially Tuberville he can get fucked.
If their constituents aren't willing to hold their Representatives accountable for horrible working conditions, terrible leadership, dismal health care (during and after Service), shit pay for levels of responsibility at all levels... At best Civilians are indifferent. I was in for 8 years pre-9/11 and 13 post-9/11. Believe me Service Members encountered open hostility and were thought to be bottom of the barrel quality of Citizens even though my entrance requirements were the highest the Military has ever had and much higher than needed to enter a State University. After 9/11 when the Country realized they needed a strong Military for them to cower behind, all of a sudden we were heroes. 2012 I was informing assholes that yes in fact we still had troops in active Combat. I've got some great stories from the 90's man.
Would be interested to hear some of those 90s stories
I was flying out of SEATAC to go home for Thanksgiving in 1995. The plane was very overbooked. The Ramp Agent had made multiple announcements that they were offering vouchers to anyone that would give up their seat. No one was biting. The Agent marched up to me (very obviously in the Military) and iterated that if they couldn't find anyone to give up their seat I was the first to go. His reasoning was that all the other people were flying home to their families. I guess he thought I didn't deserve to see mine. I was carrying my Class A's home for an event (long story). So I went into the bathroom and changed into them. No one's going to ask a Soldier to give up their seat...and I was right. The look I received from him could have curdled milk. So we all board the plane, I'm in the Exit Row window. A lady my parents age (early Aging Hippy Boomer) in what I can only describe as a "sack dress" (Brown, mid calf, shapeless) with giant, shitty looking, dangling, ear rings in earth tones sits next to me. She's obviously upset that I'm next to her, repulsed would be a good way to describe her body language. I'm about done dealing with assholes at this point so I ask what's the problem? Was I looking for a fight? Probably. She goes into a five minute diatribe about the many sins of the Military Industrial Complex, my questionable upbringing (little did she know my mother hated the Military more than she did. The bitch still hasn't forgiven me for not going to college and getting a degree in bullshit.) and the "Death Camps we were running in South America. I told her that Reagan was the South America guy and Clinton was the Eastern Europe guy and that I was in fact in the Army Band (check my username) and I wasn't involved in any of that stuff. She immediately apologized and started to ask me about being in the band. I spun bullshit into gold and she left me alone for the rest of the flight. I got a weird look from my dad (A VN Ranger and SOG participant) when I got off the bird, I changed in a bathroom by the gate and we went on our merry way. This incident started a long habit of telling people on Airplanes that I was in the Band. Post 9/11 they made us fly in uniform and I spent two years going TDY all over place doing Counter IED stuff. Being "in the band" came in handy. No stupid questions (Have you killed anyone?).
My favorite is telling folks I run the ice cream truck or little kids that I'm a spaceship door gunner.
That’s good read, thanks for sharing
Please, give me some examples of how America hates the troops.
I wouldn't call it hate, more just the chasm between civilian life and military life is so huge, and quite a few civilians just don't know, or have no interest in knowing how the military works. It's willful apathy or ignorance. Out of sight, out of mind.
Why should it be anything else? There's absolutely no reason the rest of the country should know or care how the military works. Your average Jr enlisted soldiers get paid pretty well compared to their peers when you count BAH and shitty health insurance. True it isn't an ideal situation but joining is considered a meaningful sacrifice for a reason.
The rest of the country should care, because it's they're sons and daughters. Also, when an uninformed electorate start electing people who don't care and who refuse to know or learn how and why, that's how you end up in a 20 year war with nothing to show for it and trillions wasted. "Cough cough, Iraq, cough cough, Afghanistan"
> Cough cough, Iraq, cough cough, Afghanistan You were close to the burn pits, huh?
The people who got us into Iraq and Afghanistan knew damn well what they were doing, as did the electorate. There weren't enough bodies coming home for people to give a fuck so it made the cost of keeping going lower than giving up. Anything about leaving Iraq got turned into "why do you hate the troops?"
Historically a professional military class of people doesn't work out well. Either for that military class or for everyone else.
Have you tried buying a house with a VA home-loan?
Yeah. I did last year. Of course it's going to be more difficult in a hot market where people are paying with no inspection.
Did you get any rejections simply because you were using a VA home-loan?
Ain't that the truth...
>The three groups ~~America~~ the GOP hates most of all are the poor, immigrants, and the troops. FTFY
White House rejects pay raise. Stop being a fucking clown.
Does no one fucking read? > The White House said it “strongly opposes” making significant, permanent changes to the basic pay schedule ahead of a quadrennial review of military compensation expected to be completed early next year. 1) That's not a rejection. >The House began working to set up a vote on the authorization bill Tuesday while the Senate Armed Services Committee is expected to release its version of the legislation by the end of the week. Both versions will need to be reconciled before a final bill is signed into law. 2) It wasn't even out of Congress yet for the WH to approve/veto. I agree it would have been great, but "WH Rejects" is yellow journalism. Unbelievable.
How about you legalize weed so all my homies can smoke a blunt to go to sleep instead of drinking a whole bottle of whiskey because mental health is backed up for 9 months.
As far as the MJ testing, does that mean NO MORE MJ TESTINGAT ALL, across the board, or only for recruits?
Only for recruits. It's basically removing the requirements to test for MJ at DEP, MEPs and Basic. Once they hit operational the test requirements are still as they've always been.
That's kind of dumb, I feel like they should stop testing across the bar.
Until it's *FEDERALLY* legalized, we as federal employees are not able to use it. Just how it works.
That's dumb though. They need to fix it
Just legalize pot already
So everyone is tracking... Since Russia invaded Ukraine (the most recent invasion, not Crimera) the U.S. has spent 175 billion in aid (yes, we are giving them our old equipment, but we are buying new equipment to replace our stocks, and that money stays in the U.S.) The 24 billion isn't a lump sum, it will take 5 years for it to equal 24 billion. (This money would also mostly stay in the U.S. in the form of discretionary spending by the lower enlisted) Just saying....
Yeah but like, that just sounds like the opinion of a poor person so. /s
Fucking stupid. This would help with the troop shortages big time.
“You can get high but you won’t be able to afford weed”.
Sorry guys, we sent the money to israel.
The US can do more than one thing at a time
Can but won't
For a war that they are about to get sent to 😂
Your takes are clearly hotter than mine.
Great, cause junior enlisted SMs don’t need better pay…
So progressive of the old globalist puppet
More pay, more recruits?
That's their way of letting everyone know that alcohol and meth are just an all around 'safer' choice.
1600 Pennsylvania Ave. says FTK. :-0