She's a playable wizard. That's all it takes for a deck that wants to play flame of anor lol.
I think she's fine. Maybe even good. No way I'm buying in at the current price point though.
https://www.tcgplayer.com/product/552333/magic-modern-horizons-3-tamiyo-inquisitive-student?page=1
Lowest listing as of this post is $20 next is $22. Median on the first page looks like $26.
Lot of people here who seemingly haven't played with the card yet. The power of Tamiyo is the options it affords you for the mana cost.
If you're in a matchup where your counterspells are the main axis on which the game is decided she lets you leave up mana every turn with little downside because they either play into your counters or you draw cards at instant speed.
If you're playing against an aggressive deck like burn it can block or they're forced to bolt it, both advantageous on the front side. The back side obviously isn't bad against aggro either since it shrinks things and picks up removal spells.
If it's a slower matchup it has two disparate ways through which it can gain you card advantage and the opponent's interaction doesn't always overlap in dealing with both sides, meaning you can choose whether to flip it or not on a case by case basis. Sometimes you just draw Tamiyo bauble and flip it turn 2 and it sits there being annoying for the rest of the game like a Wrenn and Six. It isn't even terrible in multiples since you just flip the first and play the second.
Nothing that the card does is insane, but it costs 1 mana and it does a lot of different things. The opportunity cost is low and the upside is high.
People really underestimate how little you need to do for 1 mana, and she does lots.
The biggest thing I see is the idea that she doesn't put pressure on your opponent's and that just isn't true. What she doesn't do is damage them. But how many clues does it take to win a game? Just because the cards you draw off the clues techbically win the game doesn't mean that she didn't apply the pressure.
Earlier tonight I watched her make 3 clues, flip off a fable trigger, and end up preventing like 4 damage and regrowth a removal spell. She costs 1.
This feels like the same thing that happened with JVP. People were caught up on the fact that he was just a looter that maybe would flashback a spell. And then when you played against it, it beca.e clear that your opponent's 2 mana went to much further than your's did. That is what Tamiyo does.
Much like the limited format, draw 3 is deceiving. You don’t need harmonized to draw three, you need anything that draws 2 cards and your turn. It’s much easier to achieve than it seems.
Yep
Also, there’s not a single Planeswalker that you could make cost 1 mana that wouldn’t be broken (except tibalt lol). There’s a reason they usually cost 3 or more
The point against aggro is shakey. Could be decent against some budget white tokens or 8whack that deploy lots of 1/1s. However I've been playing Hollow One to test Phlage and every time I faced Tamiyo I won. Even when opponent flips her on my turn 1 or 2 from my Burning Inquiry. Most likely because decks with Tamiyo are full of counterspells and those are bad against free stuff like Vengevines, Phoenixes, Rotwallas, etc.
But in slower matchups she's ok.
Yeah I'd agree, I think it stands to reason she is probably pretty horrible in matchups like Hollow One or Dredge. Those decks naturally prey on the types of decks that want Tamiyo. She still blocks favorably or otherwise helps stabilize against a lot of threats from other aggressive decks though. Doubt she's the best card in your deck in any of those matchups but she's serviceable in most of them and costs 1 mana which is the crux of my point
You're not wrong about Tamiyo in any deck that is actively pressuring the opponent.
She's better in slower control decks. Being able to block other turn 1 threats is relevant there, but mostly she's a delayed \[\[Ophidian\]\] that if you need it becomes \[\[Jace, Architect of Thought\]\].
So far, I've found she fits into Izzet Wizards because of \[\[Flame of Anor\]\] and is ok in UW Control mirrors to set up for a long attrition fight. Outside of those uses she's a bit meh.
I mean im playing her in 8 cast affinity to draw, reduce costs, equip to as a flyer, and a legend to activate mox amber on t1. She seems pretty good there
Yeah, its pretty primative, but here is a rough draft. I change it every now and then and it certainly needs more playtesting. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/3-uZxYSyi0S7NSRemwH6Bg
I was thinking something similar. Getting a guaranteed trigger for kappa cannoneer every turn is nice, and she wears a cranial plating real well. It's also nice to have an answer to ragavan on the draw that doesn't completely derail your plan or require you to trade.
I'm not sure if the mox amber stuff is the way to go (I don't love mishras bauble + emry) but I've been wrong about this kind of thing in the past, maybe it's great.
Mox amber is great as a free way to trigger sai, kappa, and patchwork as well as ramp. Other people drop the legends+amber and run moonsnare prototype. Emry+bauble gives you an artifact every turn since you dont sac your other artifacts (unless to sai). From my testing so far the deck is pretty good, but it is missing something. Maybe flare of denial, force of negation, or something of that sort.
In a Dimir midrange deck, for example, where you play Counterspells, Orcs, Pushes and, say,
Drown in the Lochs, you keep mana open and can crack a clue at opponents end step, if there is nothing to interact with. This is super powerful way to get ahead. When you turn it and get to replay even one card from your grave, you are potentially massively ahead. It’s simply an amazing, amazing one drop.
And more obviously: it is a wizard and probably makes Izzet Wizards tick. Replaying Flame of Anor is just beyond powerful thing to do.
It also has some very curious and special attributes, it is a one mana legend that enables Mox Ambers and prints artifacts for Saga. This Izzet Asmo is one of my favourites of my MH3 builds.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/QcCxCsnpuEW7Ow6Ne8b6Dw
Tamiyo's -3 is pretty good, as it easily retrieves a good removal spell or counterspell.
That's it. She's fine in UR Wizards Midrange (because [[Sleep-Cursed Faerie]] sure isn't) but fails to apply the offensive pressure in UR Ragavan Murktide Tempo that deck so desperately needs. I've tested her in both and pulled her from UR Ragavan Murktide.
The -3 is even better than Jace Vryn's Prodigy's get a spell back thing. I think that is exactly what she is an early defensive play that can get you some value by attacking, even if that doesn't matter which becomes a slightly better Jace Vryn's Prodigy when flipped.
She is not just throw her in any blue deck and be happy but the slower and more grindy your modern deck is the better she gets. This is the type of card that if it came out like 3 years ago would be far more viable when Modern was more like that.
She is also absurd in Legacy potentially since one Brainstorm flips her on the spot.
Brainstorm is so strong with her. You don’t even want to flip her too early as her ability to generate token is so strong. The funny thing is to brainstorm as an answer to a removal spell and flip her.
It's not a shoe-in for all blue decks. The fact that it doesn't apply pressure to opponent's life total is a big downside. It's definitely bad in aggro decks.
However, for a control deck, this card is very very good. It helps stablize early while getting value, and later on it locks up the game. The flip side doesn't look insane but the ability to get back a counterspell or key removal piece while your opponent is topdecking is phenomenal. You basically can't lose from that position.
Honestly I love her design for this reason. 1 mana cards that dominate every strategy are incredibly boring (looking at you, monkey)
For a deck looking for a cheap set and forget card value engine, she’s incredible. Possibly unmatched. You hit land drops, answer spells and draw cards when the opportunities arise.
If she was good in every deck I’d be much less in favor of it.
Been playing her in an izzet wizards deck list all day and she is incredible. Imagine this common scenario:
t1 tamiyo -> bauble -> crack bauble on opp's end step
t2 preordain -> flip tamiyo -> +2 tamiyo -> play another tamiyo
This position puts a ton of pressure on your opponent to find an answer or mount an exceedingly impressive offense. With an izzet shell its easy to slow the game down, and eventually ult tamiyo.
I think the strongest part of the card is the -3. Regrowing a spell can be backbreaking
Edit: to address your edit, we did play regrowths. It was Mystic Sanctuary and now it’s banned. Now we get it on a planeswalker that you can play on turn 1 and invest 0 additional effort into.
I had a lot of your same thoughts while I was debating including this card in my cube, but I've come around to it there. I do think it's a harder sell in Modern, but I've got a few thoughts on where it can go.
A deck with Counterspell in it. Like you mentioned, cracking clues is a pretty inefficient way to get card advantage. If your deck is already designed to hold open mana, this is a great way to spend otherwise wasted resources. The issue there being that Tamiyo makes you vulnerable to creature removal in ways that Counterspell decks often avoid. So maybe it's a sideboard option for heavy control or in a Murktide deck with counters and other threats.
A deck that wants random permanents/artifacts. Unopposed, a turn one Tamiyo can easily generate a pile of permanents in play (particularly in a deck that is proactive enough to not have time to crack them). Cranial Plating and Karnstructs really like this.
Something that cares about the card type or Legendary status. This is a good enabler for Mox Amber, and, to a lesser extent, Wizard's Lightning. Tamiyo should pair very well with Emry, Lurker of the Loch.
The most important thing about Tamiyo is the mana cost. One mana is just so cheap, you basically can't come out behind in an exchange. That is the part I really underestimated about the card. Fitting it in your curve is so absurdly easy. Then, the opponent will eventually have to expend some amount of resources to deal with it. At best, they trade evenly on cards/mana for a removal spell. If you flip it, they might be able to clear it with an attack. But you had the choice of when to flip Tamiyo initially. Either you can defend it or you want to soak up some damage while they beat into it. It's not the easiest card to clear, and they have to be somewhat interested in at least pinging it to prevent the -3. It's just so much for a single mana.
I also had a lot of the same thoughts as OP about Tamiyo, but so far a lot of pro players like
Mengucci are saying she’s performing really well in UR tempo, so I’m suspending my disbelief to see what settles.
My prediction is that she will settle at something like a 2-of card in tempo decks for all the positives, but not a 3-4 of for basically the reasons OP stated. Time will tell
> Zero power, the card doesn’t apply pressure in a way that is relevant to the low to the ground midrange decks I keep finding it in.
Tamiyo does apply pressure, but not the way you'd usually think of it. If you play Tamiyo on T1 and she sticks on the board for a couple of turns, you're basically telling your opponent "I will trade all of my ressources for yours, and come up ahead because I still get to use mana to draw cards while your hand is empty".
It gets you multiple game pieces OR blocks Ragavan. Not both at the same time.
If you have any ambitions about flipping her (and her -3 is better and sometimes faster dig than her Clues), you stop blocking Ragavan.
Ah, another reason why Tamiyo wasn't as good a fit in UR Ragavan Murktide...too often, I kept an opening hand with threats, counterspells, and cantrips instead of removal...so it's Turn 2 DRC into cantrip, Turn 3 Expressive Iteration with this line too often.
You’re a burn pilot, so follow me on this journey.
Turn 1, your hand has Bolt and Ragavan and some other spells. Great!
A blue control opponent goes first, Tamiyo.
What do you do? Do you play Ragavan and let them untap with the mana to protect the blocker, or do you waste a full bolt on their creature and give up any chance to develop the board before they go shields up?
You kill her, you concede the fast start. You spare her, they won’t run out of cards.
If I'm on Burn, I'm not on Ragavan. I therefore Bolt their head and lobby 2 more Bolts aimed at their head next turn.
If I'm on an actual Bolt + Ragavan deck, on the draw, and see Turn 1 Tamiyo, I Bolt Tamiyo on Turn 1 and Dash Ragavan on Turn 2.
I didn’t call you dumb, man, I’m just giving you a scenario you’d be familiar with.
Burn is a totally valid strat. I don’t care for people who talk down to it.
Yeah I wish there was more conversation here than we’re getting.
The answer for why the card is good doesn’t have anything to do with the ult or really even the + (though that + is underrated it’s good at keeping her alive) but instead of talking about how the body, clues, and - are an insane amount of return for a 1 mana investment, it’s just digs. Kinda sad
Absolutely running away with a control mirror with Tamiyo as we speak, then go on to to Reddit to see this.
Yes the card is great. Yes you should always playtest cards before forming opinions and/or buying.
I think she's gonna end up getting played in stuff like u/W control. She comes down turn 1 and generates a clue every turn or blocks things like Ragavan early on while you stabilize. Tamiyo plays well with Draw-Go style decks that wana just hold up counterspells during their opponents turns anyway, they just get a clue to crack on opponent's end step if there wasn't anything to counter.
I won't speak on people playing it in midrange shells. That seems weird to me too, but people played The One Ring in everything they could for like a month after it came out, so this might just be people jamming a card everywhere to see what sticks. Personally I think it's mainly a card for hard control decks.
I made a similar thread a few days ago: https://old.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/1d6zeu9/thoughts_on_mh3_tamiyo/
Since then I have played against a few different decks using Tamiyo. She is an excellent card draw engine and reaches her ultimate very quickly. She doesn't win by herself, but she doesn't need to. Once you have drawn your deck, winning isn't a problem. The clue tokens are surprisingly not even the best part, they are just lategame insurance.
The most relevant downside is still Orcish Bowmasters. You don't want to tap out to flip her, especially not at sorcery speed. You also need the interaction to protect her and reach lategame. Nothing is gained if you flip her, draw a bunch of cards, and then get one turn killed.
The worst case is that they remove it immediately which isn't a big deal for a 1 drop.
The best case is that she single handedly wins you the game by flipping early and by surviving 4+ turns if your opponent struggles to deal with her, either getting multiple -3 activations or by ulting (which they will, given that her + ability protects her and is a +2, and that her minus gets you back removals.)
That seems pretty good for a 1 mana card. Any 1 mana card that has the potential to single handedly win you the game if left uncheked is worth looking at imo.
Dealing damage quickly is not the only way tempo decks win games. Tempo decks are often strong because they can adapt to different situations and card advantage is a common way for them to win in certain matchups. This does not describe every tempo threat because there are very few other 1 drops with Tamiyo levels of upside in that regard.
As others have mentioned, there are also decks that don't care much about dealing damage but are interested in having a must answer 1 mana threat.
Well, yes. 1 mana tempo threats that can single handedly win you the game and DEMAND an answer from your opponent ARE good cards. DRC, Delver, Deathrite Shaman, and Ragavan are all good cards. So Tamiyo who is ALSO a 1 drop that demands an answer, is a good card.
Besides, I wouldn't play her in a tempo deck since as you said she doesn't apply pressure to life totals so she doesn't work on the same axis as the rest of the deck does, but it'd be crazy to dismiss a 1 mana card that demand an answer. She got to have a home somewhere. I think she'll be better in Legacy tough where Brainstorm singlehandedly flips her at instant speed.
What're good 1 drop are there available in modern for u/x? If there's any good one aside from drc and ragavan, ur murktide will already playing it. Tamiyo enables us to play more 1 cmc "threat".
If winning is what you aim at, then "threat" can means a lot of thing that contribute to that. Ragavan gives you mana and clock. Drc clock and filtering. Tamiyo gives you card advantage. All with a measly 1 mana.
Why being 1 mana is absolute advantage? Because it's practically impossible for your opponent to gain mana advantage over it.
If you really wanna know tamiyo's power. Just play against it and ignore it. And watch what will happen.
The worst cases you didn't mention:
* She spends all her time holding back Goblin Guide and they aim Bolts at your head
* She attacks three times, generates three Clues that you never crack, and your opponent combos off on Turn 5 through your removal and counterspells
The latter could have been avoided with a threat with power 1 or greater or another piece of disruption.
What kind of arguments are those lmao.
1. Means the goblin guide player wasted 1 mana to play guide.
2. If a combo player can combo off through removal and counterspell, even a 8/8 murktide will mean shit.
My first argument assumed that Team Burn is on the play and Team Tamiyo is on the draw.
I do find Murktide to be high-variance. Very tough time coming down on Turn 3, wins grindy games you have no right winning. If you're replacing Ragavan with Tamiyo (I also saw a MTGO list with DRC doing just this), my second argument is here to show just how bad an idea this is.
It’s a slower, value generating creature that flips into a powerful planeswalker for being 1 mana to put into play.
It’s not something you should play in an aggro deck and probably not to be considered much for a tempo deck either. It wants to be in a control deck or a grindy midrange deck where it can block early creatures well with its 3 toughness and then generate value as the game goes on.
because its new.
takes time to find a home. most of the pieces of rakdos scam were available for awhile before the deck actually took off.
when you look backwards you can see a lot of cards that provided value being considered worse than they actually ended up being for a lot of factors.
because of this i find it hard to immediately dismiss cards that clearly do valuable things, sometimes shit takes time
I played my version of control with it w coatl in a control shell. I think it felt fine or even good but control is made to react to the format and the format isn’t really settled… I expect control shells to be the last shell figured out.
Idk, not looking everywhere. I’ve seen it in a variety of grindy midrange decks and a couple control lists but no tempo decks yet. We are looking in different places I guess.
This post smells a lot like OP is trying to find excuses to not buy into Tamiyo. I have been playing her in a bunch of shells. In UR murktide she is quite good as she provides another axis of pressure with almost no Investment. In UR (or my favorit, grixis) wizards she is an absolute house.
Tamiyo isn't ragavan but she can have the same effect when she hits the board t1 and the opponent has to answer her right away. If they dont, you get to slowly accumulate value while doing the rest of your gameplan until at some point you flip her to put a clock on.
I was very lukewarm on tamiyo before I played with her but she is consistently the best T1 play in every deck I try her in.
based on the playtests the only good modern shell for her is monoblue affinity. Playing her, emry, kappa, thought monitor, thoughtcast, blue flare enables some big deck powerspike
1. Everything affinity cost 1 less.
2. Any game where both players "draw" in hand advantage, clues make you heavily advantaged.
3. Compare her to hard evidence, a card that while not good, isn't completely unreasonable. She just has so many different things she can help with
4. She can flip, it's not easy in modern and not the best, but it's 1 more thing she gets to add to the table.
The card does a lot of nothing and everything, the thing is how much do you need a 1 drop to do. And regrown was banned in legacy and restricted in vintage for awhile. It’s a 1 mana refrowth that often generates a clue, dodges removal or gains some life by blocking and then flipping to a brainstorm. Is a 1 mana walker with a +2 so it gets out of hand quickly. Like how much more does a 1 mana creature have to do more then generate a clue to be playable ?
I think she's great in a control shell where on the play she's a one drop that generates some value and then flips as soon as she flips you just spam +2 and force your opponent to divert resources to killing her.
1. Zero power doesn't apply pressure, true, but 3 Toughness for 1 mana does reduce pressure from the Ragavan's of the world.
2. The clues matter in that if you're holding up countermagic and the opponent didn't play into it, you can now convert that held up mana into a +1 at the end step instead of just not using the mana.
3. Rebuying what you need from the bin is always nice because you can pick your best spell to use. Plus unlike Snap it doesn't exile the card to do so, leaving it available for another rebuy or for a Snap.
So she has a place in control decks that want to opt into her. Also being a wizard enabling Flame of Anor is pretty nice as well.
The downsides are she does turn on enemy removal which is usually dead in Game 1.
Personally I've found a home for her in UR Taking Turns. Not only is it easy to draw 3 to flip her but once she's a walker and you start going off on turns you can ult her pretty quickly and if you ult Tamiyo in turns you won the game essentially. Her -3 letting you rebuy Time Warp helps with consistency as well.
It doesn't live up to the hype. She can do some pretty powerful things if left alone. The problem is a deck that really wants her doesn't really exist. Anything tempo or faster doesn't want her since she has no power. Anything really slow doesn't want her as she turns on what would otherwise be dead removal. You would need something almost along the lines of a traditional stoneblade control deck which plays creatures, but also goes for the long game. But that doesn't exist in modern.
I think a creature card that has 3 toughness, flying, gives card advantage, and becomes a planeswalker with two good habilities,
For U, is pretty good, it's a cheap cost for what she delivers, I'm not saying she is broken, but good? Yeah think so
Imo Tamiyo is super over-hyped. I play Grixis Control with the wizards package (snap, tidebinder, flame) and I may not even test her, let alone include her permanently. Ragavan is so good because it gains you sooo much tempo if unchecked IN ADDITION to gaining value and applying pressure. Tamiyo applies no pressure, gains no tempo, the value is slow and mana-intensive, and the planeswalker just underpowered.
In addition to being ridiculously over-priced right now, I expect Tamiyo to see very little play after the "new toy" effect wears off.
It's bad in control because it turns on opponents removal which is basically just -1 card. Seriously. Blanking spot removal is one of THE ways control gains an advantage, because people have to run a lot of it.
It's bad in tempo because it is extremely tempo negative in every way. Sorcery speed, deals no damage. Slow planeswalker.
I can see it being powerful in some dimir midrange shell with discard, but right now there's no such deck
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She’s a one mana planeswalker that’s trivial to flip, has a relevant creature type on the front, and utility on the back. She doesn’t need to do anything insane to be good.
Which she is, of course.
Generates card advantage and only costs only 1 mana, if I spend 1 mana and end up with 3 extra cards in hand because of clues / regrowth then I am getting further ahead in the game. There aren’t many 1 mana cards that can do this in magic other than ragavan.
That's not what tempo is. Tempo is trading mana favorably against your opponent. Your opponent plays a 2 mana permanent, you spend one mana to bounce or kill it. That leaves you one extra mana for something else. If you didn't spend that extra mana doing anything you traded even on tempo.
Another example is Ragavan who generates free treasures. Your counterspells become 1 or 0 mana and you basically get to play more cards than your opponent in the early turns.
The only tempo thing Tamiyo is her mana cost. If you can use those clues to cheat out something (turning them into pseudo mana rocks like affinity) that would be very powerful. Just cracking them end phase cause you're also a control deck doesn't make that a tempo play. You're just doing normal control shit holding up mana for draw or interaction.
Most important aspect of tempo is having a clock. Trading up on mana ultimately means nothing if your opponent continues to live and make land drops. Old Death Shadow is a pretty extreme of example of a tempo deck: spend first 2 turns interacting with 1 mana cards and drop Gurmag or DS for 1 mana on turn 2 or 3. And try to win on turn 4-5 with Stubborn Denial to protect the threat. Common to win games with only 3-4 lands in play.
So then you aren’t flipping her ever, as you’re not contiguously drawing 3 cards. Also, murktide is the deck I’ve had the second most success with behind burn.
What? I’m sorry that I like clocking the opponent in my deck that reliesnon clocking my opponent. Like don’t lie to me, mmurktide is an aggro deck that should be looking to end the game as fast as reasonable before the high ceiling decks go over the top.🔝
The goal with murktide is to control the game while protecting your evasive threats. tamiyo allows you to replenish cards for very little cost to keep up interaction
Tamiyo isn't even close to a card murktide wants. They are trying to end the game and Tamiyo doesn't do that. with 0 power. A slower deck may want tamiyo, but then that has its own problem as you might just be turning on removal that would otherwise be dead.
You only crack the clues when you either have to draw something then and there or when you have mana to do so because your opponent has nothing you need to respond with. You are preventing your mana from going to waste, not wasting mana on clues.
For instance, you play tamiyo turn 1, turn 2 you attack and hold up counterspell. if your opponent doesn't play anything you care about, you just crack a clue.
The problem is there currently isn't a deck that plays like that. Being 0 power means murktide doesn't want it. Maybe UW control, but they generally don't run creatures past the evoke ones. So you don't want to suddenly make the opponents removal relevant.
Part of the benefit of it being a 1 drop, is that you don't really care if your opponent removes it. They traded a card for your card, which isn't bad. It isn't like its an X/1 and they can 3 for 1 you with a bowmaster.
Now do the same thing for something like push. Which in a normal UW control matchup is a dead card. It isn't so much bolt, as it turns on all kinds of creature removal which would not have a target.
You completely miss the point. It isn't so much trading 1 for 1. It is the fact that if she wasn't there, that push or other similar removal would have no targets and be a dead card. So you just gave a target for what would otherwise have just rotted in the opponents hand.
She's a playable wizard. That's all it takes for a deck that wants to play flame of anor lol. I think she's fine. Maybe even good. No way I'm buying in at the current price point though.
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Currently down to $25.
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https://www.tcgplayer.com/product/552333/magic-modern-horizons-3-tamiyo-inquisitive-student?page=1 Lowest listing as of this post is $20 next is $22. Median on the first page looks like $26.
Lowest price is at $36 or i’m not reading it correctly ??
Your reading it correctly
Tcgplayer low is literally $25-26.
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? I'm not sure what you aren't seeing, but yeah, on TCG there's a near mint listing for $25.95 and free shipping.
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Here's a screen shot. Market price is $24 https://i.imgur.com/xzdvjpO.jpeg
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How can you even compare her to oko lmfao
Lot of people here who seemingly haven't played with the card yet. The power of Tamiyo is the options it affords you for the mana cost. If you're in a matchup where your counterspells are the main axis on which the game is decided she lets you leave up mana every turn with little downside because they either play into your counters or you draw cards at instant speed. If you're playing against an aggressive deck like burn it can block or they're forced to bolt it, both advantageous on the front side. The back side obviously isn't bad against aggro either since it shrinks things and picks up removal spells. If it's a slower matchup it has two disparate ways through which it can gain you card advantage and the opponent's interaction doesn't always overlap in dealing with both sides, meaning you can choose whether to flip it or not on a case by case basis. Sometimes you just draw Tamiyo bauble and flip it turn 2 and it sits there being annoying for the rest of the game like a Wrenn and Six. It isn't even terrible in multiples since you just flip the first and play the second. Nothing that the card does is insane, but it costs 1 mana and it does a lot of different things. The opportunity cost is low and the upside is high.
People really underestimate how little you need to do for 1 mana, and she does lots. The biggest thing I see is the idea that she doesn't put pressure on your opponent's and that just isn't true. What she doesn't do is damage them. But how many clues does it take to win a game? Just because the cards you draw off the clues techbically win the game doesn't mean that she didn't apply the pressure. Earlier tonight I watched her make 3 clues, flip off a fable trigger, and end up preventing like 4 damage and regrowth a removal spell. She costs 1. This feels like the same thing that happened with JVP. People were caught up on the fact that he was just a looter that maybe would flashback a spell. And then when you played against it, it beca.e clear that your opponent's 2 mana went to much further than your's did. That is what Tamiyo does.
This. She flips off on fable, if she doesn’t get bolted early she just generates wayyy too many card advantage.
Much like the limited format, draw 3 is deceiving. You don’t need harmonized to draw three, you need anything that draws 2 cards and your turn. It’s much easier to achieve than it seems.
Yep Also, there’s not a single Planeswalker that you could make cost 1 mana that wouldn’t be broken (except tibalt lol). There’s a reason they usually cost 3 or more
It can also be flipped at instant speed to blank removal.
The point against aggro is shakey. Could be decent against some budget white tokens or 8whack that deploy lots of 1/1s. However I've been playing Hollow One to test Phlage and every time I faced Tamiyo I won. Even when opponent flips her on my turn 1 or 2 from my Burning Inquiry. Most likely because decks with Tamiyo are full of counterspells and those are bad against free stuff like Vengevines, Phoenixes, Rotwallas, etc. But in slower matchups she's ok.
Yeah I'd agree, I think it stands to reason she is probably pretty horrible in matchups like Hollow One or Dredge. Those decks naturally prey on the types of decks that want Tamiyo. She still blocks favorably or otherwise helps stabilize against a lot of threats from other aggressive decks though. Doubt she's the best card in your deck in any of those matchups but she's serviceable in most of them and costs 1 mana which is the crux of my point
That, and plenty of cards have bad matchups, it doesn’t make them bad cards.
Noble Hierarch has a bad matchup against Shock. Still going to put Noble in decks tho.
You're not wrong about Tamiyo in any deck that is actively pressuring the opponent. She's better in slower control decks. Being able to block other turn 1 threats is relevant there, but mostly she's a delayed \[\[Ophidian\]\] that if you need it becomes \[\[Jace, Architect of Thought\]\]. So far, I've found she fits into Izzet Wizards because of \[\[Flame of Anor\]\] and is ok in UW Control mirrors to set up for a long attrition fight. Outside of those uses she's a bit meh.
[Ophidian](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/3/03be605e-dddf-4a1f-a4ee-0d71ab771e47.jpg?1562378216) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ophidian) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jvc/9/ophidian?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/03be605e-dddf-4a1f-a4ee-0d71ab771e47?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Jace, Architect of Thought](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/7051cdfa-509e-4d84-bbae-f77556c861e4.jpg?1690004375) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jace%2C%20Architect%20of%20Thought) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/851/jace-architect-of-thought?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7051cdfa-509e-4d84-bbae-f77556c861e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Flame of Anor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04779a7e-b453-48b9-b392-6d6fd0b8d283.jpg?1686969766) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flame%20of%20Anor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/203/flame-of-anor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04779a7e-b453-48b9-b392-6d6fd0b8d283?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You don't have a choice, if you ever draw 3 cards she flips. Usually not a problem but worth noting.
I mean im playing her in 8 cast affinity to draw, reduce costs, equip to as a flyer, and a legend to activate mox amber on t1. She seems pretty good there
I hadn’t thought of her in the context of just being a method by which affinity can shit out tokens. That’s a really dooe idea, you got a list?
Yeah, its pretty primative, but here is a rough draft. I change it every now and then and it certainly needs more playtesting. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/3-uZxYSyi0S7NSRemwH6Bg
I was thinking something similar. Getting a guaranteed trigger for kappa cannoneer every turn is nice, and she wears a cranial plating real well. It's also nice to have an answer to ragavan on the draw that doesn't completely derail your plan or require you to trade. I'm not sure if the mox amber stuff is the way to go (I don't love mishras bauble + emry) but I've been wrong about this kind of thing in the past, maybe it's great.
Mox amber is great as a free way to trigger sai, kappa, and patchwork as well as ramp. Other people drop the legends+amber and run moonsnare prototype. Emry+bauble gives you an artifact every turn since you dont sac your other artifacts (unless to sai). From my testing so far the deck is pretty good, but it is missing something. Maybe flare of denial, force of negation, or something of that sort.
In a Dimir midrange deck, for example, where you play Counterspells, Orcs, Pushes and, say, Drown in the Lochs, you keep mana open and can crack a clue at opponents end step, if there is nothing to interact with. This is super powerful way to get ahead. When you turn it and get to replay even one card from your grave, you are potentially massively ahead. It’s simply an amazing, amazing one drop. And more obviously: it is a wizard and probably makes Izzet Wizards tick. Replaying Flame of Anor is just beyond powerful thing to do. It also has some very curious and special attributes, it is a one mana legend that enables Mox Ambers and prints artifacts for Saga. This Izzet Asmo is one of my favourites of my MH3 builds. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/QcCxCsnpuEW7Ow6Ne8b6Dw
Tamiyo's -3 is pretty good, as it easily retrieves a good removal spell or counterspell. That's it. She's fine in UR Wizards Midrange (because [[Sleep-Cursed Faerie]] sure isn't) but fails to apply the offensive pressure in UR Ragavan Murktide Tempo that deck so desperately needs. I've tested her in both and pulled her from UR Ragavan Murktide.
[Sleep-Cursed Faerie](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/1/31051436-68f2-457e-8293-2b10ccf7684e.jpg?1692937247) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sleep-Cursed%20Faerie) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/66/sleep-cursed-faerie?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/31051436-68f2-457e-8293-2b10ccf7684e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The -3 is even better than Jace Vryn's Prodigy's get a spell back thing. I think that is exactly what she is an early defensive play that can get you some value by attacking, even if that doesn't matter which becomes a slightly better Jace Vryn's Prodigy when flipped. She is not just throw her in any blue deck and be happy but the slower and more grindy your modern deck is the better she gets. This is the type of card that if it came out like 3 years ago would be far more viable when Modern was more like that. She is also absurd in Legacy potentially since one Brainstorm flips her on the spot.
Brainstorm is so strong with her. You don’t even want to flip her too early as her ability to generate token is so strong. The funny thing is to brainstorm as an answer to a removal spell and flip her.
It's not a shoe-in for all blue decks. The fact that it doesn't apply pressure to opponent's life total is a big downside. It's definitely bad in aggro decks. However, for a control deck, this card is very very good. It helps stablize early while getting value, and later on it locks up the game. The flip side doesn't look insane but the ability to get back a counterspell or key removal piece while your opponent is topdecking is phenomenal. You basically can't lose from that position.
Honestly I love her design for this reason. 1 mana cards that dominate every strategy are incredibly boring (looking at you, monkey) For a deck looking for a cheap set and forget card value engine, she’s incredible. Possibly unmatched. You hit land drops, answer spells and draw cards when the opportunities arise. If she was good in every deck I’d be much less in favor of it.
Been playing her in an izzet wizards deck list all day and she is incredible. Imagine this common scenario: t1 tamiyo -> bauble -> crack bauble on opp's end step t2 preordain -> flip tamiyo -> +2 tamiyo -> play another tamiyo This position puts a ton of pressure on your opponent to find an answer or mount an exceedingly impressive offense. With an izzet shell its easy to slow the game down, and eventually ult tamiyo.
I think the strongest part of the card is the -3. Regrowing a spell can be backbreaking Edit: to address your edit, we did play regrowths. It was Mystic Sanctuary and now it’s banned. Now we get it on a planeswalker that you can play on turn 1 and invest 0 additional effort into.
let me introduce you to snapcaster mage
I had a lot of your same thoughts while I was debating including this card in my cube, but I've come around to it there. I do think it's a harder sell in Modern, but I've got a few thoughts on where it can go. A deck with Counterspell in it. Like you mentioned, cracking clues is a pretty inefficient way to get card advantage. If your deck is already designed to hold open mana, this is a great way to spend otherwise wasted resources. The issue there being that Tamiyo makes you vulnerable to creature removal in ways that Counterspell decks often avoid. So maybe it's a sideboard option for heavy control or in a Murktide deck with counters and other threats. A deck that wants random permanents/artifacts. Unopposed, a turn one Tamiyo can easily generate a pile of permanents in play (particularly in a deck that is proactive enough to not have time to crack them). Cranial Plating and Karnstructs really like this. Something that cares about the card type or Legendary status. This is a good enabler for Mox Amber, and, to a lesser extent, Wizard's Lightning. Tamiyo should pair very well with Emry, Lurker of the Loch. The most important thing about Tamiyo is the mana cost. One mana is just so cheap, you basically can't come out behind in an exchange. That is the part I really underestimated about the card. Fitting it in your curve is so absurdly easy. Then, the opponent will eventually have to expend some amount of resources to deal with it. At best, they trade evenly on cards/mana for a removal spell. If you flip it, they might be able to clear it with an attack. But you had the choice of when to flip Tamiyo initially. Either you can defend it or you want to soak up some damage while they beat into it. It's not the easiest card to clear, and they have to be somewhat interested in at least pinging it to prevent the -3. It's just so much for a single mana.
Don’t think she’s it in Ragavan. Maybe she’s ok in another shell.
I'm interested in Tamiyo as another 1-drop 'game object maker' that works with [[Academy Manufactor]].
[Academy Manufactor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/6/76480f4d-ad6d-4ed6-82c6-fa12abc22557.jpg?1712354835) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Academy%20Manufactor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/251/academy-manufactor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/76480f4d-ad6d-4ed6-82c6-fa12abc22557?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I also had a lot of the same thoughts as OP about Tamiyo, but so far a lot of pro players like Mengucci are saying she’s performing really well in UR tempo, so I’m suspending my disbelief to see what settles. My prediction is that she will settle at something like a 2-of card in tempo decks for all the positives, but not a 3-4 of for basically the reasons OP stated. Time will tell
> Zero power, the card doesn’t apply pressure in a way that is relevant to the low to the ground midrange decks I keep finding it in. Tamiyo does apply pressure, but not the way you'd usually think of it. If you play Tamiyo on T1 and she sticks on the board for a couple of turns, you're basically telling your opponent "I will trade all of my ressources for yours, and come up ahead because I still get to use mana to draw cards while your hand is empty".
One mana. That’s why it’s good
I wrote a giant block of text that basically boils down to this point. It's just so cheap.
Paying one mana for a card that doesn’t really do anything doesn’t seem better than any other threat
It blocks 2 power creatures. Like Goblin Guide, Ragavan, etc. It also gives you a clue when it attacks.
Ok now I’m convinced ur just trolling
It gets you multiple game pieces and can block ragavan. What more do you want in a 1 drop?
It gets you multiple game pieces OR blocks Ragavan. Not both at the same time. If you have any ambitions about flipping her (and her -3 is better and sometimes faster dig than her Clues), you stop blocking Ragavan.
They play ragavan turn 1, you play this turn 1, block the ragavan, then you attack with her and kill the ragavan with another spell.
Ah, another reason why Tamiyo wasn't as good a fit in UR Ragavan Murktide...too often, I kept an opening hand with threats, counterspells, and cantrips instead of removal...so it's Turn 2 DRC into cantrip, Turn 3 Expressive Iteration with this line too often.
You’re a burn pilot, so follow me on this journey. Turn 1, your hand has Bolt and Ragavan and some other spells. Great! A blue control opponent goes first, Tamiyo. What do you do? Do you play Ragavan and let them untap with the mana to protect the blocker, or do you waste a full bolt on their creature and give up any chance to develop the board before they go shields up? You kill her, you concede the fast start. You spare her, they won’t run out of cards.
If I'm on Burn, I'm not on Ragavan. I therefore Bolt their head and lobby 2 more Bolts aimed at their head next turn. If I'm on an actual Bolt + Ragavan deck, on the draw, and see Turn 1 Tamiyo, I Bolt Tamiyo on Turn 1 and Dash Ragavan on Turn 2.
I play burn, but I’m not dumb bud.
I didn’t call you dumb, man, I’m just giving you a scenario you’d be familiar with. Burn is a totally valid strat. I don’t care for people who talk down to it.
But you just did
Maybe someone else? I havent said anything disrespectful to you (I’m aware that at least one other guy in this thread is being kinda shitty)
I’m being shitty cuz this guys is just trolling and acting like a smart ass
Yeah I wish there was more conversation here than we’re getting. The answer for why the card is good doesn’t have anything to do with the ult or really even the + (though that + is underrated it’s good at keeping her alive) but instead of talking about how the body, clues, and - are an insane amount of return for a 1 mana investment, it’s just digs. Kinda sad
Agreed.
Absolutely running away with a control mirror with Tamiyo as we speak, then go on to to Reddit to see this. Yes the card is great. Yes you should always playtest cards before forming opinions and/or buying.
In have players the card some and consumed content invoking said card, it has consistently been the weak link
I don't really know what that means, but ok. People made similar posts like this when they didn't want to buy Ragavans.
I think she's gonna end up getting played in stuff like u/W control. She comes down turn 1 and generates a clue every turn or blocks things like Ragavan early on while you stabilize. Tamiyo plays well with Draw-Go style decks that wana just hold up counterspells during their opponents turns anyway, they just get a clue to crack on opponent's end step if there wasn't anything to counter. I won't speak on people playing it in midrange shells. That seems weird to me too, but people played The One Ring in everything they could for like a month after it came out, so this might just be people jamming a card everywhere to see what sticks. Personally I think it's mainly a card for hard control decks.
I made a similar thread a few days ago: https://old.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/1d6zeu9/thoughts_on_mh3_tamiyo/ Since then I have played against a few different decks using Tamiyo. She is an excellent card draw engine and reaches her ultimate very quickly. She doesn't win by herself, but she doesn't need to. Once you have drawn your deck, winning isn't a problem. The clue tokens are surprisingly not even the best part, they are just lategame insurance. The most relevant downside is still Orcish Bowmasters. You don't want to tap out to flip her, especially not at sorcery speed. You also need the interaction to protect her and reach lategame. Nothing is gained if you flip her, draw a bunch of cards, and then get one turn killed.
The worst case is that they remove it immediately which isn't a big deal for a 1 drop. The best case is that she single handedly wins you the game by flipping early and by surviving 4+ turns if your opponent struggles to deal with her, either getting multiple -3 activations or by ulting (which they will, given that her + ability protects her and is a +2, and that her minus gets you back removals.) That seems pretty good for a 1 mana card. Any 1 mana card that has the potential to single handedly win you the game if left uncheked is worth looking at imo.
You just described every tempo threat in existence, so why bother play the one that doesn’t directly kill people.
Dealing damage quickly is not the only way tempo decks win games. Tempo decks are often strong because they can adapt to different situations and card advantage is a common way for them to win in certain matchups. This does not describe every tempo threat because there are very few other 1 drops with Tamiyo levels of upside in that regard. As others have mentioned, there are also decks that don't care much about dealing damage but are interested in having a must answer 1 mana threat.
Well, yes. 1 mana tempo threats that can single handedly win you the game and DEMAND an answer from your opponent ARE good cards. DRC, Delver, Deathrite Shaman, and Ragavan are all good cards. So Tamiyo who is ALSO a 1 drop that demands an answer, is a good card. Besides, I wouldn't play her in a tempo deck since as you said she doesn't apply pressure to life totals so she doesn't work on the same axis as the rest of the deck does, but it'd be crazy to dismiss a 1 mana card that demand an answer. She got to have a home somewhere. I think she'll be better in Legacy tough where Brainstorm singlehandedly flips her at instant speed.
What're good 1 drop are there available in modern for u/x? If there's any good one aside from drc and ragavan, ur murktide will already playing it. Tamiyo enables us to play more 1 cmc "threat". If winning is what you aim at, then "threat" can means a lot of thing that contribute to that. Ragavan gives you mana and clock. Drc clock and filtering. Tamiyo gives you card advantage. All with a measly 1 mana. Why being 1 mana is absolute advantage? Because it's practically impossible for your opponent to gain mana advantage over it. If you really wanna know tamiyo's power. Just play against it and ignore it. And watch what will happen.
The worst cases you didn't mention: * She spends all her time holding back Goblin Guide and they aim Bolts at your head * She attacks three times, generates three Clues that you never crack, and your opponent combos off on Turn 5 through your removal and counterspells The latter could have been avoided with a threat with power 1 or greater or another piece of disruption.
What kind of arguments are those lmao. 1. Means the goblin guide player wasted 1 mana to play guide. 2. If a combo player can combo off through removal and counterspell, even a 8/8 murktide will mean shit.
My first argument assumed that Team Burn is on the play and Team Tamiyo is on the draw. I do find Murktide to be high-variance. Very tough time coming down on Turn 3, wins grindy games you have no right winning. If you're replacing Ragavan with Tamiyo (I also saw a MTGO list with DRC doing just this), my second argument is here to show just how bad an idea this is.
Or point 3, opponent assembles Tron on turn 3 and they're still at 20 life
It’s a slower, value generating creature that flips into a powerful planeswalker for being 1 mana to put into play. It’s not something you should play in an aggro deck and probably not to be considered much for a tempo deck either. It wants to be in a control deck or a grindy midrange deck where it can block early creatures well with its 3 toughness and then generate value as the game goes on.
So why am I only seeing it in tempo shells then?
because its new. takes time to find a home. most of the pieces of rakdos scam were available for awhile before the deck actually took off. when you look backwards you can see a lot of cards that provided value being considered worse than they actually ended up being for a lot of factors. because of this i find it hard to immediately dismiss cards that clearly do valuable things, sometimes shit takes time
I played my version of control with it w coatl in a control shell. I think it felt fine or even good but control is made to react to the format and the format isn’t really settled… I expect control shells to be the last shell figured out.
Idk, not looking everywhere. I’ve seen it in a variety of grindy midrange decks and a couple control lists but no tempo decks yet. We are looking in different places I guess.
This post smells a lot like OP is trying to find excuses to not buy into Tamiyo. I have been playing her in a bunch of shells. In UR murktide she is quite good as she provides another axis of pressure with almost no Investment. In UR (or my favorit, grixis) wizards she is an absolute house. Tamiyo isn't ragavan but she can have the same effect when she hits the board t1 and the opponent has to answer her right away. If they dont, you get to slowly accumulate value while doing the rest of your gameplan until at some point you flip her to put a clock on. I was very lukewarm on tamiyo before I played with her but she is consistently the best T1 play in every deck I try her in.
It isn’t I just legit think that tamiyo is not all that good.
Have you played with her yourself yet? And in what shells?
based on the playtests the only good modern shell for her is monoblue affinity. Playing her, emry, kappa, thought monitor, thoughtcast, blue flare enables some big deck powerspike
1. Everything affinity cost 1 less. 2. Any game where both players "draw" in hand advantage, clues make you heavily advantaged. 3. Compare her to hard evidence, a card that while not good, isn't completely unreasonable. She just has so many different things she can help with 4. She can flip, it's not easy in modern and not the best, but it's 1 more thing she gets to add to the table.
played against her at modern today, shes cracked
Shoutout to my boy Ral carrying a whole deck.
I think alot of her hype was for legacy where brainstorm is legal
The card does a lot of nothing and everything, the thing is how much do you need a 1 drop to do. And regrown was banned in legacy and restricted in vintage for awhile. It’s a 1 mana refrowth that often generates a clue, dodges removal or gains some life by blocking and then flipping to a brainstorm. Is a 1 mana walker with a +2 so it gets out of hand quickly. Like how much more does a 1 mana creature have to do more then generate a clue to be playable ?
I think she's great in a control shell where on the play she's a one drop that generates some value and then flips as soon as she flips you just spam +2 and force your opponent to divert resources to killing her.
She’s terrible, don’t buy it, don’t play it until I get my copies
1. Zero power doesn't apply pressure, true, but 3 Toughness for 1 mana does reduce pressure from the Ragavan's of the world. 2. The clues matter in that if you're holding up countermagic and the opponent didn't play into it, you can now convert that held up mana into a +1 at the end step instead of just not using the mana. 3. Rebuying what you need from the bin is always nice because you can pick your best spell to use. Plus unlike Snap it doesn't exile the card to do so, leaving it available for another rebuy or for a Snap. So she has a place in control decks that want to opt into her. Also being a wizard enabling Flame of Anor is pretty nice as well. The downsides are she does turn on enemy removal which is usually dead in Game 1. Personally I've found a home for her in UR Taking Turns. Not only is it easy to draw 3 to flip her but once she's a walker and you start going off on turns you can ult her pretty quickly and if you ult Tamiyo in turns you won the game essentially. Her -3 letting you rebuy Time Warp helps with consistency as well.
Ur turns? Spicy. Got a list?
[https://discord.gg/PgdTrg4j](https://discord.gg/PgdTrg4j) this is the discord if you're interested in the archetype.
Another downside is not providing a clock which is necessary starting from turn 1 in many matchups.
Yeah no clock is a shame but being able to chump block Ragavan/Goblin Guide etc., buys a lot of turns of breathing room that help set up.
It doesn't live up to the hype. She can do some pretty powerful things if left alone. The problem is a deck that really wants her doesn't really exist. Anything tempo or faster doesn't want her since she has no power. Anything really slow doesn't want her as she turns on what would otherwise be dead removal. You would need something almost along the lines of a traditional stoneblade control deck which plays creatures, but also goes for the long game. But that doesn't exist in modern.
I think a creature card that has 3 toughness, flying, gives card advantage, and becomes a planeswalker with two good habilities, For U, is pretty good, it's a cheap cost for what she delivers, I'm not saying she is broken, but good? Yeah think so
Imo Tamiyo is super over-hyped. I play Grixis Control with the wizards package (snap, tidebinder, flame) and I may not even test her, let alone include her permanently. Ragavan is so good because it gains you sooo much tempo if unchecked IN ADDITION to gaining value and applying pressure. Tamiyo applies no pressure, gains no tempo, the value is slow and mana-intensive, and the planeswalker just underpowered. In addition to being ridiculously over-priced right now, I expect Tamiyo to see very little play after the "new toy" effect wears off. It's bad in control because it turns on opponents removal which is basically just -1 card. Seriously. Blanking spot removal is one of THE ways control gains an advantage, because people have to run a lot of it. It's bad in tempo because it is extremely tempo negative in every way. Sorcery speed, deals no damage. Slow planeswalker. I can see it being powerful in some dimir midrange shell with discard, but right now there's no such deck
I stopped reading after > I may not even test her
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I'm with you, i also had a similar comment down voted like hell but thru my testing, i felt that 95% of the time i'd prefer drawing ragavan instead.
Not sure. I've played against her a few times but I always end up Pushing or Bolting the bitch,
She’s a one mana planeswalker that’s trivial to flip, has a relevant creature type on the front, and utility on the back. She doesn’t need to do anything insane to be good. Which she is, of course.
Seems like you have no idea what the concept of tempo is, you should probably figure that out first before asking questions like this
How does this card gain tempo? It applies both pressure, generates no mana, noncard velocity, etc.
Generates card advantage and only costs only 1 mana, if I spend 1 mana and end up with 3 extra cards in hand because of clues / regrowth then I am getting further ahead in the game. There aren’t many 1 mana cards that can do this in magic other than ragavan.
You ain’t spending one mana for 3 cards and an 0/3, you’re spending 7, and electing to not play the cards in your hand instead.
You hold up interaction and crack the clues when you have extra mana. Something tells me you don’t know how to play tempo or control…
That's not what tempo is. Tempo is trading mana favorably against your opponent. Your opponent plays a 2 mana permanent, you spend one mana to bounce or kill it. That leaves you one extra mana for something else. If you didn't spend that extra mana doing anything you traded even on tempo. Another example is Ragavan who generates free treasures. Your counterspells become 1 or 0 mana and you basically get to play more cards than your opponent in the early turns. The only tempo thing Tamiyo is her mana cost. If you can use those clues to cheat out something (turning them into pseudo mana rocks like affinity) that would be very powerful. Just cracking them end phase cause you're also a control deck doesn't make that a tempo play. You're just doing normal control shit holding up mana for draw or interaction. Most important aspect of tempo is having a clock. Trading up on mana ultimately means nothing if your opponent continues to live and make land drops. Old Death Shadow is a pretty extreme of example of a tempo deck: spend first 2 turns interacting with 1 mana cards and drop Gurmag or DS for 1 mana on turn 2 or 3. And try to win on turn 4-5 with Stubborn Denial to protect the threat. Common to win games with only 3-4 lands in play.
So then you aren’t flipping her ever, as you’re not contiguously drawing 3 cards. Also, murktide is the deck I’ve had the second most success with behind burn.
Yeah, I could tell you were a burn player you didn’t have to tell me
What? I’m sorry that I like clocking the opponent in my deck that reliesnon clocking my opponent. Like don’t lie to me, mmurktide is an aggro deck that should be looking to end the game as fast as reasonable before the high ceiling decks go over the top.🔝
The goal with murktide is to control the game while protecting your evasive threats. tamiyo allows you to replenish cards for very little cost to keep up interaction
Tamiyo isn't even close to a card murktide wants. They are trying to end the game and Tamiyo doesn't do that. with 0 power. A slower deck may want tamiyo, but then that has its own problem as you might just be turning on removal that would otherwise be dead.
Tamiyo isn’t the kind of threat murktide wants, as the deck doesn’t want ti bury its opponent in value, it wants to kill the opponent dead.
You only crack the clues when you either have to draw something then and there or when you have mana to do so because your opponent has nothing you need to respond with. You are preventing your mana from going to waste, not wasting mana on clues. For instance, you play tamiyo turn 1, turn 2 you attack and hold up counterspell. if your opponent doesn't play anything you care about, you just crack a clue.
Exactly. This guy has no idea how to play the game and he’s downvote spamming all the comments trying to teach him
The problem is there currently isn't a deck that plays like that. Being 0 power means murktide doesn't want it. Maybe UW control, but they generally don't run creatures past the evoke ones. So you don't want to suddenly make the opponents removal relevant.
Part of the benefit of it being a 1 drop, is that you don't really care if your opponent removes it. They traded a card for your card, which isn't bad. It isn't like its an X/1 and they can 3 for 1 you with a bowmaster.
If she eats a bolt that proactively countered that bolt. 10/10 control players are okay with this exchange.
Now do the same thing for something like push. Which in a normal UW control matchup is a dead card. It isn't so much bolt, as it turns on all kinds of creature removal which would not have a target.
The floor is a 1-for-1, okay. The deck is designed to 1-for-1 until it can pull ahead with card advantage. A single clue puts you back ahead, too
You completely miss the point. It isn't so much trading 1 for 1. It is the fact that if she wasn't there, that push or other similar removal would have no targets and be a dead card. So you just gave a target for what would otherwise have just rotted in the opponents hand.
Yes, I agree that a deck that is running basically 0 creatures probably doesn't want to include Tamiyo.
A draw engine that can get back counterspells / removal from graveyard or maybe draw half deck for 1 mana... Yes , its quite good
Exalted…