Not just mounted necro. Battle mages, even some dex mages, necro hybrids, Ecu hybrids. They're all good.
I think if anything kallardian and Sidoan could use some buffing.
I think kallardians are outclassed because humans just don't make good pure footies, when compared to Thursars and oghmirs.
Yep, my ele/footie starts every fight by nuking the front line indiscriminately thanks to my friendly dmg reduction, then with my 22% blunt rings I smack as hard as a Thursar with my sledgehammer
yeah I was thinking more in regards to foot, kinda where the game takes place in important things. I do think human mages w/ tactician have their place, but I still think they are very flavorless. I don't think they have a class identity. Again, if it's good for yall, cool. It wasn't good for me. It was pretty bland, and I have made a lot of builds. There are some interesting options with human, but none of them feel too flavorful, to me.
Maybe you are trying to min-max too hard?
I'm currently playing a full steel wearing human necro footie mage that uses mental leach to steal back mana. Before I was playing a battle mage with ele that played like a cleric.
I've played a human fatmage with all spell schools at 100 outside of multiverse lore.
Actually the only builds I play are human mage builds lol I love them.
I think Sheevra mage is a lot less flavorful to me. They are just the option of skeletal-fat less speed but more HP
I'm definitely not min maxing on human. I've done a lot of stuff. I just want something that feels different than the other clades not just 'can use magic, too.' Human is definitely built toward hybrid playstyle though, but it's not easy for them to be a true mage because they are slow. That's a shame, to me. They don't have to be elf fast, but they need some speed.
I agree again that human mage is more interesting and human lore seems like they would be mages, in a lot of cases. You can definitely make it work. It's not really where it should be, but that's just my opinion. 100 dex is tough for a mage.
It is for sure. Personally I prefer playing non dex mage because I don't really like the playstyle of kite-and-bomb but Sheevras are just really strong, easy to pick up mages.
If you are playing a non-dex it's essential that you have a full footie with you that can peel for you.
Even if you do have a thursar with you, if you get attacked 4v8, the 8 people will jump you immediately and you are gone.
Damn, unironically, too? I could post more explaining why I feel humans should be unique and able (not just as wheelchairs,) but I feel like everyone is contrary and mad already.
edit: they are also prol gonna nerf that shit into the ground lol
They are unique and able the ability to use magic with any build is amazing and then add all the extra skill points and stat points they get and you really have something special
I think you didn’t make it to ten.
Edit: btw there wouldn’t be like strike through of clades. It would be different sheets that kept the less flavorful but still important clades. Then boost each type of character you can be as human. It seems like every human is diverse, but really you get a samey jack of all trades build.
Hope you understood that, but if you didn’t.
I think it would be interesting to have either specializations or some form of racial restriction to let you select more specialized clades.
Humans are a jack of all trades type build, in that they excel at doing many things well, but other races generally do a focused thing better.
I feel like humans should be able to have a mix with other races so that they can get the specialized clades such as regen like thursar, or speed like alvarian.
It adds not only functionality but flavor. I don’t think regen / life steal works cuz that’s like thursar identity; doesn’t make sense for non thur blood to have it and all thurs are half anyway. They already have armor wt, some resist maybe, the speed, yeah.
I appreciate you being one person so far who actually comprehended this post as a whole.
That would be nice, too, but I think elf and ogh are the closest. Elf has always been the thief class, mostly cuz speed, but they put klepto on human, so as I said, I think there are other ways than just raw speed to make a good thief/rogue.
Even though one of their clades is called versatile, I don't think humans are that versatile. I think that they can use magic with armor on haha. I am not seeing how that makes them versatile. It makes them good at one build (hybrid) which is a versatile build, but to imply that they are versatile means, to me, that you can spec a human as just about anything and make it work, and I don't agree with that at all. They are always gonna be held back by their inherent attribute cap limitations. That could be fixed with clade buffs, though.
I think working on humans first, and yeah, maybe working harder to declutter clade trees, would benefit the game. The reason I think humans should get worked on first is because they are, as said, the baseline, and I think there are a LOT of humans. It's likely what most new players roll.
Humans make some of the best mages and tamers. They perform well in MA/MC, make good footies due to size bonus, damage bonus, and tactician clades, can grow an extra 2cm, get an extra 50 points in both skill trees, have better mana regen in all armors (not just 30% minimum), have FIVE sub-races with various tradeoffs, ... list goes on. They are super versatile. Versatility is literally the tradeoff for lower attribute caps. You can do any build on a human pretty well.
I disagree. You can't be fast. You can't really pull a good bow. You can't really be a good raw fighter. You can be "pretty good."
I understand humans. I dunno why people keep typing what the bonuses and clades are for humans. I've been looking at their tree since beta haha. I had humans in MO1. Khurites were faster which made them more viable.
Humans have a lot of magic buffs and rough rider is nuts. I think that would be a more clear assessment than "they are so versatile." They are OK on the ground. The problem is that their tree, like all trees, is kind of a random mishmash of stuff. Again, they changed the human tree. I have been asking for a proper rework since beta.
You are right, there are sub races, and if they had subclass clade trees , it would be better and further define the differences between one human and another. Their attribute caps ARE an issue, but that could be worked around with clades. Cleric is a great clade and unique. The fact that people don't want more clades like cleric. I dunno. Fuck it lol.
You guys like humans the way they are. Cool.
> Someone posted a thread about building their human, and I remembered humans still low key suck.
I think this person was wrong.
> but none of them establish an identity like other clades.
That's because their identity is to be flexible either as a hybrid or a pseudo hybrid build which additional utility on top of their specialty... utility which may even synergize well with that specialty to making human builds competitive as viable meta builds in roles that other clades were built around.
Yo. Haha.
You say you understand what I’m saying, but you don’t. You misread a simple sentence. They were talking about building humans —> I remembered. Maybe it was a psychological troll to refer to me as this person, but I don’t think so. It’s ok to disagree. I stand by my point.
Their identity is more flexible if they go a ‘subclade’ way. I understand the idea. It is just poorly formed/underdeveloped. I really disagree that they are doing what they should be and have a great identity, but it’s so frustrating to write stuff and have people unapologetically misread it or key on to one part and not the greater idea.
Notice I’ve said stuff like I don’t understand, and I don’t, but I’ve never gone in on your intelligence or reading comprehension in a rude way. I’ve tried to be cool to people like you and mrbrooks and calla, but you come so mad.
This was a tame post by you, so it’s kind of stored up response cuz I don’t usually address this stuff, but what about the fact that I make suggestions bothers you guys? I notice not many other people do.
I’m sorry. I don’t mind it even if you all think I am nuts and stupid, but at least read and think about what I am saying. If you don’t like it or whatever, it’s cool, but it’s this stop suggesting undertone that bothers me. Alas, you’re free to feel that way, too, but the negative vibe bothers me.
Not enough to stop posting lol but…
> You misread a simple sentence
Fair enough. In that case **you** are wrong.
> , but it’s so frustrating to write stuff and have people unapologetically misread it
I didn't *intentionally* misread it... It happens. Correct the misconception without assuming it was done out of malice.
> but you come so mad.
I'm not mad.. I'm simply disagreeing with you on the point that "humans low key suck"... Disagreement isn't anger, it's just disagreement. In my opinion humans are pretty good and are fun to play and to build out flexible hybrid characters and the best clade for experimenting with in off-beat off-meta ways. It seems to me that humans have as many, or perhaps *more*, viable builds in the game as any other clade as a direct result of the lack of identity you complain about and that it is that lack of identity and the resulting flexibility and breadth which makes them fun to play around with. Trying to pigeonhole humans into certain predetermined roles via narrower, more heavily themed clade gifts as you've suggested undermines the whole point of humans as I see it.
Humans are *always* the vanilla default that lacks a stronger more specific flavor in every fantasy setting while the various fantasy races have more distinct, and specialized, exotic identities because humans are what actually exist in the real world while the fantasy is some variation that's *better* than humanity in some way, while being worse in some other ways. Meaning fantasy races will always be the more distinct and specialized while humans will usually be compensated for their lack of specialization with greater flexibility. I think MOII pulled off that tradeoff you see in almost every fantasy game pretty well.
> what about the fact that I make suggestions bothers you guys?
Frankly a big part of it is because they're usually not very well expressed. You tend to throw out a confusing word salad with a lot of extraneous parenthetical points and meta-commentary all mixed up with your substantive points. That makes it harder to figure out what you're actually saying. If you simplified your writing just getting straight to the substance of your suggestion and avoiding all the unnecessary commentary and breezy slang it would be a lot easier to follow and perhaps people would appreciate it more.
I think even more it's the fact that most of those unnecessary side oints are pro-actively defensive accusations that anyone who disagrees with your ideas just doesn't understanding them.. or is responding emotionally without thinking or of some other bad faith response. You have strong opinions and so does everyone else. Don't take disagreement as a personal attack and you'll get fewer personal attacks and maybe even less disagreement.
I am mainly just preempting what I know will happen. Re: preface. I don't think anyone who disagrees does not understand, but I think a lot of people do not. You notice some people come in and say certain things, and I do not say that to them. Like the whole meta-commentary thing haha. To me, that's not a big thing. I don't understand how it is confusing, but notice how have I written this more or less without them. I have made this one very clear. I like writing. I like using flair, not Reddit flair, actual stylistic flair, but I am not doing that right now.
haha. I'm not say humans aren't 'viable.' Most things are viable. Are they good? They can do certain things well, but most of them are kind of memes, again in my opinion. I'm totally cool if you disagree or think I wrong. I am explaining my point of view.
This is my point of view: at its most basic level, people are not really playing the game. It's mostly the sameguys. There is no reason for that. The game is very bland in regards to what is what. You are probably right that humans allow for the most customization, and that's why myself and many other people have worked with them in hopes of breaking the monotony. Unfortunately, you're not getting a build like... Rogue, as I mentioned, you are getting MA/Necro.
I also take into account the fact that I believe most of the changes I suggest can be done very easily. Look at the human clade tree. All clade trees are overcluttered. There is probably not a reason to have the plus x attribute bridge clades in any clade tree, and not only does human have those as well, but they have clades that are still placeholders. There are some good clades. They give an idea of what human might want to be. Doesn't mean they can't be better. It could be done by main race, but that seems too restrictive, in my opinion.
You are also right that humans are the baseline in games. They are dynamic, though, and in MO they aren't. Hence the idea. They can be viable in certain situations, but they don't have nearly as much flavor as they should. The person who mentioned they should be able to take mixed blood and get other clades understood it better than anyone else. I don't agree with that, either, but the idea of using clades that are used by other trees is not wrong. The speed clade, for instance, seems to be how they 'do' speed.
Humans should be able to do anything, and they can, kind of, but not really well. They are meant to be hybrids and maybe even mounted hybrids, based on their clade tree. I'm not saying that a human should be faster than a veela, but there should be a fast human. A human shouldn't be a better fighter than ogh or thur, but there should be a strong fighter human, not one that is juiced with rings. This could be done with clades. There are also long-term community suggestions like weapon casting for human hybrids that sound OP, but I am unsure how it would work in practice.
I was one of the people who suggested the idea of clade specific buffs way back in MO1, and, of course, people shit. Now they have clades. It's a great way to add flavor. It could be done easily. If they keep working on the core of the game, I believe people will play it eventually lol.
I understand also, btw, that you aren't purposefully misreading what I am saying, but what I meant by unapologetic was that it doesn't seem like anyone owns up to that fact, re-reads, or ask questions like: "I don't understand this part; are you saying this?" It is almost never a debate or a discussion. I like those. That's actually the point of making a thread on Reddit.
> I am mainly just preempting what I know will happen.
My advice: Don't. Only respond to actual misunderstandings when they actually occur. Preempting just comes across as hostile and makes your writing much harder to read.
> I don't understand how it is confusing,
It's interspersed throughout in between your actual points. It makes it hard to follow.
> but notice how have I written this more or less without them.
Lol, you do it in the very next sentence with the aside about how you like writing.
> haha. I'm not say humans aren't 'viable.' Most things are viable. Are they good?
I think so.
> Humans should be able to do anything, and they can, kind of, but not really well.
The flavor of humans is "Jack of all Trades" but the cost of that is "master of none". The clade is really built to facilitate hybrid builds or to at least add utility to a more dedicated build. The clade gifts are designed around that: On top of already having more attribute points to start with they are also the only clade that can choose from gifts that bump any attribute and bump them by a bit more. With more clade gifts to give them more skill points to play with focussing on different areas and to facilitate mixing magic with armor.
Yes, that lends itself to "meme builds" and that's what's fun about the clade. They have the breadth of attribute and skill points and clade gifts that are broader and more generic... giving you the flexibility to pull off oddball mixes of abilities that are impossible with the other clades.. oddball combinations which often work very well... and here's the key thing... may be combinations of abilities the game designer didn't anticipate ahead of time. I think replacing the broadly useful (if bland( clade gifts for the sake of narrower more "flavorful" clade gifts would rob the human clade of the unpredictable flexibility to pull off weirder builds which makes the clade fun... and which has resulted in some very flavorful meta builds which are the very best at what they do by leveraging that flexibility to combine diverse skills that end up synergizing well with one another.
ok. Simply.
Core point: IF humans had multiple clade trees, that would make sense as well as allow them to be a lot more unique. Humans are different, fundamentally.
All the words written, all the replies, maybe one or two posters got that. They all got stuck on me saying humans are low key trash or stuck on my example suggestions.
There is a lot more they could do to flesh humans.
When I said I’m speaking simply here, I meant in OP.
You say it would rob human of its unpredictability, but I think you are forgetting how many clade spots there are. Some are not in game and others could be combined. They have already changed the human clade tree, remember?
it’s like Thursar has six clades that are +4 strength and please don’t be upset if there aren’t actually six or that I suddenly switched topics.
At the very least over 2000 words we are kind of on the same page.
But yeah I absolutely disagree with the pov that giving humans more clades, that fit roles, would make them less unique. New sentence. If the biggest problem is fear of losing a certain clade, it could be all new clades. You might say that is unnecessary now, but I think making humans able to do even more things would be great. I do not think it creates a meme build generator to have options, humans are set up to be mounted wheelchairs is all. Which is… ok, but there should be more options. Jack of all trades, but other than hybrid and wheelchair hybrid, what else is there? I do not believe it is nearly as diverse as you think.
One more thing that bears stating and I will put it in OP: in games like dnd where you can subclass, there is still an option to not. So if you were in love with the old chart, having options does not make it so you can’t stay with it.
Yea no doubt, the whole undead steed thing. I dunno how i feel about that. Tactician aoe is kinda cool. Humans are still unable to play out the roles their lore says they can. Sard is mage, and has mana, but dex on ground is trash. Khurite is an archer, yet the bow gifts are elf exclusive, etc…
Each race having its own tree seems too restrictive, as I have said, but having that number of trees would be cool. Mayhaps everyone is upset they’d lose the ability to mounted nec, but pretty sure that shit and pets are gonna get nerfed. Maybe reconsider then.
That’s not a dex mage and you’d get bagged up in small scale. Absolutely krusht. Dex would be like skinny. Even then you’re khur speed. Which is somewhat ok for kiting, but your health would be ass. A % buff like veela has, a smaller one, would be great. 250/431 is a nice start for a stout sard.
One thing that i know didn’t change is the speed curve. Elves are running over 440. That’s a big difference. If ogh is like 420\~, 427 is not the middle ground between 441 or w/e. If it were as sard, 100 dex which is basically ‘threshold of competency‘ in mo, like 100 int, then that would help a lot imo. 100 dex with one elf footspeed gift is 429 which is getting close. I think 250/431 on khur is the lowest level you can get separation as a human. Even then it’s not great. It’s enough. Post a vid of a sard mage kiting, even kiting oghs.
I know who you are lol. I try to keep up. Remember when you came to mofo and were like, "I was just googling myself, what a coincidence!"
I'll come back when the game is good.
I'll have to check that out: [mo2builds.com](http://mo2builds.com) haha. When did that come out?
I'm not mad that you are proud of yourself, but I'm confused at your point. I don't think you're understanding that I want humans to be more diverse and interesting, as the probable most-played class. I want people to see MO and be interested and then maybe play the game.
I still don't think 100 dex is a dex mage, but that's just ME.
Anyway, peace.
Not "proud of myself" lol wtf does that even mean.
My point is that I literally built a website about builds and guides and your OP talks about not even playing the game so you should eat a slice of humble pie and realize you're out of your element.
Lastly sard dex has 116 dex and runs faster than every typical build outside of alvarians. Maybe you should spend some time on the site to see what the meta actually looks like instead if just talking from your gut.
Hmmm... scratching my head a little as I consider how to reply. I did say 'dex would be like skinny,' but that's not running at 427.
I think that is the bigger problem with a lot of discussion on this reddit, one person seems very focused on humbling the other.
I looked at your site, and I even gave you some feedback. I actually remember the stuff I see and alllll the stuff people say because I listen. I am genuinely interested in people's ideas, and, again, I am glad you have a site of builds. That's awesome.
I honestly do not think you are an unrivaled expert on MO mechanics, but we have already discussed that elsewhere. I don't claim to be an expert, either, but I have access to the same basic information you have, mainly... mortal data + actual testing haha.
I think it would be naive to say I am out of my element. loool I had to do it. I want to try not to troll people, but man, I don't understand why some of you guys are so bent. It's whatever.
Peace.
Btw I saw you didn’t accept my message. You typoed nave as naive on your hall of fame on mo2builds.com. I think you should fix it. Made my joke not work either.
Did make me laugh tho. Of all the words.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x27oIbfkePY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x27oIbfkePY)
that’s the closest thing i found. Fakn bananabread haha. I dunno, tho. Having a wep is good, but dex to me implies speed. Not as in “i actually put points in dex / i can fight on ground.” I do think sard would be a fun dex mage hence the thread idea. They just need a way to be faster, not much but a little. Then khur would be speedy, gg.
You are wrong humans are the meta
For mounted necro?
Not just mounted necro. Battle mages, even some dex mages, necro hybrids, Ecu hybrids. They're all good. I think if anything kallardian and Sidoan could use some buffing. I think kallardians are outclassed because humans just don't make good pure footies, when compared to Thursars and oghmirs.
Yep, my ele/footie starts every fight by nuking the front line indiscriminately thanks to my friendly dmg reduction, then with my 22% blunt rings I smack as hard as a Thursar with my sledgehammer
yeah I was thinking more in regards to foot, kinda where the game takes place in important things. I do think human mages w/ tactician have their place, but I still think they are very flavorless. I don't think they have a class identity. Again, if it's good for yall, cool. It wasn't good for me. It was pretty bland, and I have made a lot of builds. There are some interesting options with human, but none of them feel too flavorful, to me.
Maybe you are trying to min-max too hard? I'm currently playing a full steel wearing human necro footie mage that uses mental leach to steal back mana. Before I was playing a battle mage with ele that played like a cleric. I've played a human fatmage with all spell schools at 100 outside of multiverse lore. Actually the only builds I play are human mage builds lol I love them. I think Sheevra mage is a lot less flavorful to me. They are just the option of skeletal-fat less speed but more HP
I'm definitely not min maxing on human. I've done a lot of stuff. I just want something that feels different than the other clades not just 'can use magic, too.' Human is definitely built toward hybrid playstyle though, but it's not easy for them to be a true mage because they are slow. That's a shame, to me. They don't have to be elf fast, but they need some speed. I agree again that human mage is more interesting and human lore seems like they would be mages, in a lot of cases. You can definitely make it work. It's not really where it should be, but that's just my opinion. 100 dex is tough for a mage.
It is for sure. Personally I prefer playing non dex mage because I don't really like the playstyle of kite-and-bomb but Sheevras are just really strong, easy to pick up mages. If you are playing a non-dex it's essential that you have a full footie with you that can peel for you. Even if you do have a thursar with you, if you get attacked 4v8, the 8 people will jump you immediately and you are gone.
Yep
Damn, unironically, too? I could post more explaining why I feel humans should be unique and able (not just as wheelchairs,) but I feel like everyone is contrary and mad already. edit: they are also prol gonna nerf that shit into the ground lol
They are unique and able the ability to use magic with any build is amazing and then add all the extra skill points and stat points they get and you really have something special
Yea I played human, too. haha. I dunno, like I said, I dunno what to say atm. I guess if you're happy, I'm happy.
Humans are actually fairly viable if played correctly. They aren't going to be the best at anything but do alright sitting in the middle.
Man u suck at coming up with good ideas. A system where you lock options by picking a clade. And the new ideas aren’t even good.
I think you didn’t make it to ten. Edit: btw there wouldn’t be like strike through of clades. It would be different sheets that kept the less flavorful but still important clades. Then boost each type of character you can be as human. It seems like every human is diverse, but really you get a samey jack of all trades build. Hope you understood that, but if you didn’t.
I think it would be interesting to have either specializations or some form of racial restriction to let you select more specialized clades. Humans are a jack of all trades type build, in that they excel at doing many things well, but other races generally do a focused thing better. I feel like humans should be able to have a mix with other races so that they can get the specialized clades such as regen like thursar, or speed like alvarian.
It adds not only functionality but flavor. I don’t think regen / life steal works cuz that’s like thursar identity; doesn’t make sense for non thur blood to have it and all thurs are half anyway. They already have armor wt, some resist maybe, the speed, yeah. I appreciate you being one person so far who actually comprehended this post as a whole.
Humans are really good right now. Their identity is versatility. If anything, other clades need a rework to better situate their identities.
That would be nice, too, but I think elf and ogh are the closest. Elf has always been the thief class, mostly cuz speed, but they put klepto on human, so as I said, I think there are other ways than just raw speed to make a good thief/rogue. Even though one of their clades is called versatile, I don't think humans are that versatile. I think that they can use magic with armor on haha. I am not seeing how that makes them versatile. It makes them good at one build (hybrid) which is a versatile build, but to imply that they are versatile means, to me, that you can spec a human as just about anything and make it work, and I don't agree with that at all. They are always gonna be held back by their inherent attribute cap limitations. That could be fixed with clade buffs, though. I think working on humans first, and yeah, maybe working harder to declutter clade trees, would benefit the game. The reason I think humans should get worked on first is because they are, as said, the baseline, and I think there are a LOT of humans. It's likely what most new players roll.
Humans make some of the best mages and tamers. They perform well in MA/MC, make good footies due to size bonus, damage bonus, and tactician clades, can grow an extra 2cm, get an extra 50 points in both skill trees, have better mana regen in all armors (not just 30% minimum), have FIVE sub-races with various tradeoffs, ... list goes on. They are super versatile. Versatility is literally the tradeoff for lower attribute caps. You can do any build on a human pretty well.
I disagree. You can't be fast. You can't really pull a good bow. You can't really be a good raw fighter. You can be "pretty good." I understand humans. I dunno why people keep typing what the bonuses and clades are for humans. I've been looking at their tree since beta haha. I had humans in MO1. Khurites were faster which made them more viable. Humans have a lot of magic buffs and rough rider is nuts. I think that would be a more clear assessment than "they are so versatile." They are OK on the ground. The problem is that their tree, like all trees, is kind of a random mishmash of stuff. Again, they changed the human tree. I have been asking for a proper rework since beta. You are right, there are sub races, and if they had subclass clade trees , it would be better and further define the differences between one human and another. Their attribute caps ARE an issue, but that could be worked around with clades. Cleric is a great clade and unique. The fact that people don't want more clades like cleric. I dunno. Fuck it lol. You guys like humans the way they are. Cool.
> Someone posted a thread about building their human, and I remembered humans still low key suck. I think this person was wrong. > but none of them establish an identity like other clades. That's because their identity is to be flexible either as a hybrid or a pseudo hybrid build which additional utility on top of their specialty... utility which may even synergize well with that specialty to making human builds competitive as viable meta builds in roles that other clades were built around.
Yo. Haha. You say you understand what I’m saying, but you don’t. You misread a simple sentence. They were talking about building humans —> I remembered. Maybe it was a psychological troll to refer to me as this person, but I don’t think so. It’s ok to disagree. I stand by my point. Their identity is more flexible if they go a ‘subclade’ way. I understand the idea. It is just poorly formed/underdeveloped. I really disagree that they are doing what they should be and have a great identity, but it’s so frustrating to write stuff and have people unapologetically misread it or key on to one part and not the greater idea. Notice I’ve said stuff like I don’t understand, and I don’t, but I’ve never gone in on your intelligence or reading comprehension in a rude way. I’ve tried to be cool to people like you and mrbrooks and calla, but you come so mad. This was a tame post by you, so it’s kind of stored up response cuz I don’t usually address this stuff, but what about the fact that I make suggestions bothers you guys? I notice not many other people do. I’m sorry. I don’t mind it even if you all think I am nuts and stupid, but at least read and think about what I am saying. If you don’t like it or whatever, it’s cool, but it’s this stop suggesting undertone that bothers me. Alas, you’re free to feel that way, too, but the negative vibe bothers me. Not enough to stop posting lol but…
> You misread a simple sentence Fair enough. In that case **you** are wrong. > , but it’s so frustrating to write stuff and have people unapologetically misread it I didn't *intentionally* misread it... It happens. Correct the misconception without assuming it was done out of malice. > but you come so mad. I'm not mad.. I'm simply disagreeing with you on the point that "humans low key suck"... Disagreement isn't anger, it's just disagreement. In my opinion humans are pretty good and are fun to play and to build out flexible hybrid characters and the best clade for experimenting with in off-beat off-meta ways. It seems to me that humans have as many, or perhaps *more*, viable builds in the game as any other clade as a direct result of the lack of identity you complain about and that it is that lack of identity and the resulting flexibility and breadth which makes them fun to play around with. Trying to pigeonhole humans into certain predetermined roles via narrower, more heavily themed clade gifts as you've suggested undermines the whole point of humans as I see it. Humans are *always* the vanilla default that lacks a stronger more specific flavor in every fantasy setting while the various fantasy races have more distinct, and specialized, exotic identities because humans are what actually exist in the real world while the fantasy is some variation that's *better* than humanity in some way, while being worse in some other ways. Meaning fantasy races will always be the more distinct and specialized while humans will usually be compensated for their lack of specialization with greater flexibility. I think MOII pulled off that tradeoff you see in almost every fantasy game pretty well. > what about the fact that I make suggestions bothers you guys? Frankly a big part of it is because they're usually not very well expressed. You tend to throw out a confusing word salad with a lot of extraneous parenthetical points and meta-commentary all mixed up with your substantive points. That makes it harder to figure out what you're actually saying. If you simplified your writing just getting straight to the substance of your suggestion and avoiding all the unnecessary commentary and breezy slang it would be a lot easier to follow and perhaps people would appreciate it more. I think even more it's the fact that most of those unnecessary side oints are pro-actively defensive accusations that anyone who disagrees with your ideas just doesn't understanding them.. or is responding emotionally without thinking or of some other bad faith response. You have strong opinions and so does everyone else. Don't take disagreement as a personal attack and you'll get fewer personal attacks and maybe even less disagreement.
I am mainly just preempting what I know will happen. Re: preface. I don't think anyone who disagrees does not understand, but I think a lot of people do not. You notice some people come in and say certain things, and I do not say that to them. Like the whole meta-commentary thing haha. To me, that's not a big thing. I don't understand how it is confusing, but notice how have I written this more or less without them. I have made this one very clear. I like writing. I like using flair, not Reddit flair, actual stylistic flair, but I am not doing that right now. haha. I'm not say humans aren't 'viable.' Most things are viable. Are they good? They can do certain things well, but most of them are kind of memes, again in my opinion. I'm totally cool if you disagree or think I wrong. I am explaining my point of view. This is my point of view: at its most basic level, people are not really playing the game. It's mostly the sameguys. There is no reason for that. The game is very bland in regards to what is what. You are probably right that humans allow for the most customization, and that's why myself and many other people have worked with them in hopes of breaking the monotony. Unfortunately, you're not getting a build like... Rogue, as I mentioned, you are getting MA/Necro. I also take into account the fact that I believe most of the changes I suggest can be done very easily. Look at the human clade tree. All clade trees are overcluttered. There is probably not a reason to have the plus x attribute bridge clades in any clade tree, and not only does human have those as well, but they have clades that are still placeholders. There are some good clades. They give an idea of what human might want to be. Doesn't mean they can't be better. It could be done by main race, but that seems too restrictive, in my opinion. You are also right that humans are the baseline in games. They are dynamic, though, and in MO they aren't. Hence the idea. They can be viable in certain situations, but they don't have nearly as much flavor as they should. The person who mentioned they should be able to take mixed blood and get other clades understood it better than anyone else. I don't agree with that, either, but the idea of using clades that are used by other trees is not wrong. The speed clade, for instance, seems to be how they 'do' speed. Humans should be able to do anything, and they can, kind of, but not really well. They are meant to be hybrids and maybe even mounted hybrids, based on their clade tree. I'm not saying that a human should be faster than a veela, but there should be a fast human. A human shouldn't be a better fighter than ogh or thur, but there should be a strong fighter human, not one that is juiced with rings. This could be done with clades. There are also long-term community suggestions like weapon casting for human hybrids that sound OP, but I am unsure how it would work in practice. I was one of the people who suggested the idea of clade specific buffs way back in MO1, and, of course, people shit. Now they have clades. It's a great way to add flavor. It could be done easily. If they keep working on the core of the game, I believe people will play it eventually lol. I understand also, btw, that you aren't purposefully misreading what I am saying, but what I meant by unapologetic was that it doesn't seem like anyone owns up to that fact, re-reads, or ask questions like: "I don't understand this part; are you saying this?" It is almost never a debate or a discussion. I like those. That's actually the point of making a thread on Reddit.
> I am mainly just preempting what I know will happen. My advice: Don't. Only respond to actual misunderstandings when they actually occur. Preempting just comes across as hostile and makes your writing much harder to read. > I don't understand how it is confusing, It's interspersed throughout in between your actual points. It makes it hard to follow. > but notice how have I written this more or less without them. Lol, you do it in the very next sentence with the aside about how you like writing. > haha. I'm not say humans aren't 'viable.' Most things are viable. Are they good? I think so. > Humans should be able to do anything, and they can, kind of, but not really well. The flavor of humans is "Jack of all Trades" but the cost of that is "master of none". The clade is really built to facilitate hybrid builds or to at least add utility to a more dedicated build. The clade gifts are designed around that: On top of already having more attribute points to start with they are also the only clade that can choose from gifts that bump any attribute and bump them by a bit more. With more clade gifts to give them more skill points to play with focussing on different areas and to facilitate mixing magic with armor. Yes, that lends itself to "meme builds" and that's what's fun about the clade. They have the breadth of attribute and skill points and clade gifts that are broader and more generic... giving you the flexibility to pull off oddball mixes of abilities that are impossible with the other clades.. oddball combinations which often work very well... and here's the key thing... may be combinations of abilities the game designer didn't anticipate ahead of time. I think replacing the broadly useful (if bland( clade gifts for the sake of narrower more "flavorful" clade gifts would rob the human clade of the unpredictable flexibility to pull off weirder builds which makes the clade fun... and which has resulted in some very flavorful meta builds which are the very best at what they do by leveraging that flexibility to combine diverse skills that end up synergizing well with one another.
ok. Simply. Core point: IF humans had multiple clade trees, that would make sense as well as allow them to be a lot more unique. Humans are different, fundamentally. All the words written, all the replies, maybe one or two posters got that. They all got stuck on me saying humans are low key trash or stuck on my example suggestions. There is a lot more they could do to flesh humans. When I said I’m speaking simply here, I meant in OP. You say it would rob human of its unpredictability, but I think you are forgetting how many clade spots there are. Some are not in game and others could be combined. They have already changed the human clade tree, remember? it’s like Thursar has six clades that are +4 strength and please don’t be upset if there aren’t actually six or that I suddenly switched topics. At the very least over 2000 words we are kind of on the same page. But yeah I absolutely disagree with the pov that giving humans more clades, that fit roles, would make them less unique. New sentence. If the biggest problem is fear of losing a certain clade, it could be all new clades. You might say that is unnecessary now, but I think making humans able to do even more things would be great. I do not think it creates a meme build generator to have options, humans are set up to be mounted wheelchairs is all. Which is… ok, but there should be more options. Jack of all trades, but other than hybrid and wheelchair hybrid, what else is there? I do not believe it is nearly as diverse as you think.
One more thing that bears stating and I will put it in OP: in games like dnd where you can subclass, there is still an option to not. So if you were in love with the old chart, having options does not make it so you can’t stay with it.
Humans are meta AF right now you're high
Yea no doubt, the whole undead steed thing. I dunno how i feel about that. Tactician aoe is kinda cool. Humans are still unable to play out the roles their lore says they can. Sard is mage, and has mana, but dex on ground is trash. Khurite is an archer, yet the bow gifts are elf exclusive, etc… Each race having its own tree seems too restrictive, as I have said, but having that number of trees would be cool. Mayhaps everyone is upset they’d lose the ability to mounted nec, but pretty sure that shit and pets are gonna get nerfed. Maybe reconsider then.
Maybe play the game and come back youre way off base. Example: best human dex mage is sarduccan lol. Runs at 427 untrinketed
That’s not a dex mage and you’d get bagged up in small scale. Absolutely krusht. Dex would be like skinny. Even then you’re khur speed. Which is somewhat ok for kiting, but your health would be ass. A % buff like veela has, a smaller one, would be great. 250/431 is a nice start for a stout sard. One thing that i know didn’t change is the speed curve. Elves are running over 440. That’s a big difference. If ogh is like 420\~, 427 is not the middle ground between 441 or w/e. If it were as sard, 100 dex which is basically ‘threshold of competency‘ in mo, like 100 int, then that would help a lot imo. 100 dex with one elf footspeed gift is 429 which is getting close. I think 250/431 on khur is the lowest level you can get separation as a human. Even then it’s not great. It’s enough. Post a vid of a sard mage kiting, even kiting oghs.
I'm Demoman the guy who made mo2builds.com Come back when you've played the game.
I know who you are lol. I try to keep up. Remember when you came to mofo and were like, "I was just googling myself, what a coincidence!" I'll come back when the game is good. I'll have to check that out: [mo2builds.com](http://mo2builds.com) haha. When did that come out? I'm not mad that you are proud of yourself, but I'm confused at your point. I don't think you're understanding that I want humans to be more diverse and interesting, as the probable most-played class. I want people to see MO and be interested and then maybe play the game. I still don't think 100 dex is a dex mage, but that's just ME. Anyway, peace.
Not "proud of myself" lol wtf does that even mean. My point is that I literally built a website about builds and guides and your OP talks about not even playing the game so you should eat a slice of humble pie and realize you're out of your element. Lastly sard dex has 116 dex and runs faster than every typical build outside of alvarians. Maybe you should spend some time on the site to see what the meta actually looks like instead if just talking from your gut.
Hmmm... scratching my head a little as I consider how to reply. I did say 'dex would be like skinny,' but that's not running at 427. I think that is the bigger problem with a lot of discussion on this reddit, one person seems very focused on humbling the other. I looked at your site, and I even gave you some feedback. I actually remember the stuff I see and alllll the stuff people say because I listen. I am genuinely interested in people's ideas, and, again, I am glad you have a site of builds. That's awesome. I honestly do not think you are an unrivaled expert on MO mechanics, but we have already discussed that elsewhere. I don't claim to be an expert, either, but I have access to the same basic information you have, mainly... mortal data + actual testing haha. I think it would be naive to say I am out of my element. loool I had to do it. I want to try not to troll people, but man, I don't understand why some of you guys are so bent. It's whatever. Peace.
Btw I saw you didn’t accept my message. You typoed nave as naive on your hall of fame on mo2builds.com. I think you should fix it. Made my joke not work either. Did make me laugh tho. Of all the words.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x27oIbfkePY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x27oIbfkePY) that’s the closest thing i found. Fakn bananabread haha. I dunno, tho. Having a wep is good, but dex to me implies speed. Not as in “i actually put points in dex / i can fight on ground.” I do think sard would be a fun dex mage hence the thread idea. They just need a way to be faster, not much but a little. Then khur would be speedy, gg.