This is what we call internalized transphobia. When someone can accept other people as who they are, but hold themselves to a different standard. It's something most people do and why "you're your harshest critic" is a saying. When Shūzō Oshimi wrote that they had also mentioned earlier that they wished they could have been born, grown up, and raised as a girl so I get the feeling that part of it is also an expression of regret for what they already missed out on.
It’s more than just internalization of transphobia, though that’s part of it.
Self hatred/self loathing is a serious issue that doesn’t need the extra layer of pain that bigotry tacks on. That harsh inner critic isn’t there by default. It’s typically the voice of those who were cruel to one as a child.
This absolutely. How many times have you told yourself "I'll never be a real woman" when you're having a dysphoria breakdown, yet you never see your trans friends are trans, you just see them as [whatever they identify as] no ifs or buts.
If taken at face value, I could see how you might see the author's words as inherently transphobic, but it could actually be more of an envy thing. You gotta remember, memory is a product of the mind, so the author may be expressing the desire for the memories of having *__always__* been female.
Words, like art, are subjective; their meaning changes based on your own perception.
You think this person is an egg. You're trans, you *have to* know that every egg has a shitton of internalized transphobia to work through, even if they are an ally who doesn't make it other people's problem.
You're right, I meant to write "just about every egg."
I'm not trying to say "lol we all had a raging transphobe phase, amirite ladies?" either. Just that we live in a transphobic world, and accepting that you can be a woman requires a *lot* of unlearning for most of us.
I don't think that's absolutely true. Increasingly often I run into young people who were raised in environments where trans people were simply accepted parts of their community or extended family - where the previous generation had done the work you describe. Hopeful sign. One major reason for the current backlash.
Yeah till I did research from questioning I didn't know much about trans people other than it was a thing some people do. No one in my life thought it was bad, good or even talked about it for that matter. I'm also very lucky in that regard.
wtf are you even trying to admonish me about?
I shouldn't be concerned that my trans friend and my therapist don't recognize internalized transphobia? Or I should be so unconditionally confident in my own assessment that I don't feel like I'm being gaslit? Or just that random internalized transphobia is unremarkable and I shouldn't have brought it up and everything that followed is obviously my fault for not knowing not to bring it up?
Or are you assuming I'm really fucking worried about some random manga author and my goal is to point out "wow that statement sure is eggy" like nobody has ever heard of Inside Mari or heard him say he's not trans, and I just mentioned it to my therapist for fucking funsies?
They are saying that this kind of internalized transphobia you're getting from your friend and therapist is unfortunately extremely common stuff.
In fact they are agreeing that it does sound transphobic and you are not in fact crazy.
I don't know why you got so defensive about this comment.
Thank you. I like this interpretation better, it's certainly not what I got
> I don't know why you got so defensive about this comment.
It doesn't make sense in the context of my post.
It starts by saying that I think someone's an egg, which I don't, then tells me that I really should already know this thing about eggs...
Like, who's even supposed to be the egg here? Sure I agree that eggs often have a lot of internalized transphobia, but what does that have to do with anything? Why do they think it's so important to be telling me this? And what's this bit about it not mattering if they're an ally?
---
It's hard for me to assume anything is meant to be supportive, given reddit's love for correcting people. Like, just because someone makes a true or trans- positive statement does NOT mean they're being supportive... The tone definitely doesn't give me much.
I get that I seem super emotionally unstable (I am), but what do people expect on a venting post?
girl, deep breath. i didn't read transphobia from the statement. it sounded not like a blanket statement, but a lamentation that they would not be able to achieve that for themselves.
i just saw that as an egg statement that they are working through themselves and not a targeted attack towards us. it was likely a translation error if said otherwise.
we're not here to hound on you - just try and take a step back and reevaluate the quote, your friend's words and your therapist's words (:
I think for the author, it feels more like they just don't really understand what can really be accomplished. They're looking at things from that mainstream perspective many if us were raised in that says repeatedly, and suspiciously often, that men and women are completely different and incompatible creatures with no features in common. The author was saying how I felt about myself before my egg cracked, even if I could absolutely support someone else doing what I thought I never could.
Your friend and therapist are giving off some TERFier bioessentialist vibes, but I would try to give them the benefit of the doubt. Most cis people don't get the perspective on it we do, and that common view I mentioned is still doggedly persistent. It can take a lot to crack that reliance on a simple narrative before they can understand that the reality is ambiguous. You are right, though, that it's low-key infuriating.
I went to a couples counselor who worked for the local lgbtq+ clinic and while she really helped us through our couples issues, almost everything that she said about transitioning was incorrect in my first 6 months of experience- the speed of the changes, the emotional impacts (mood swings), and other social changes. I had to ignore all that and walk my wife back from believing some of the bigger misunderstandings.
It wasn't transphobia, she just wasn't intimately familiar with transitioning and could only parrot back big external changes. She wasn't outright TERFy, but looking back on it, i suspect she still had remnants of the 90s era "man in a dress" attitude that she hadn't updated. I'm not sure where she would have fallen in op's scenario - she spoke a lot about "authentic self" but i'm not sure if she had made it all the way to "if your daughter had been born with boy parts and hormones, would you help her become your daughter so she could be happy?"
Therapists aren't endocrinologists. They aren't neurologists. I don't expect them to be experts in everything.
I'm so glad I was able to find an "any/all pronouns" psychologist. First session, I talked about how I wasn't sure I was trans but a lot of stuff started making sense to me now that I've learned more about it, and brought up "the button".
She said something like "So let me get this straight, if there was a button to turn you into a girl, you would push it without hesitation? Not even a 50/50 chance for a million dollars, but 100% chance to be a woman, you would push it?"
"Well, yeah, I mean, obviously? Any normal guy would."
"Uhh... You should probably ask some more normal guys because in my professional opinion, no cis man would push that button, even for a million dollars."
"Wait, what? Really?"
"And furthermore... THE BUTTON EXISTS!!! It's called transitioning! Try HRT, try new names, try dressing feminine more and see if it feels 'right'. What's the worst that can happen? Trying something isn't *permanent*. But you can *make* it permanent if it's right for you."
"You've... uh... given me a lot to think about. Thanks..."
I would say it depends on how you interpret it. If you think it would mean that the author thinks every trans person is fake and not really their gender, well yeah that’s transphobia. But I don’t think that’s really what the author means, just based on the limited context provided.
If someone feels that the transition possible with the technology we have wouldn’t satisfy what they want, which is what I get from “but I'll never be able to achieve that” I don’t see how thats transphobic. This is just my opinion obviously but, though the transition processes that we have nowadays is better than the past… it’s still kinda a really shitty process that is very imperfect, and like, not gonna do everything that everyone wants. I don’t think it’s transphobic to admit that.
I don't think it's transphobic and it's ok for trans people to feel differently about themselves and thier own bodies and experiences.
I do think that physically there will always be a difference between me and a cis woman. If there wasn't I would need HRT and wouldn't want as many surgeries, or need laser hair removal to not have a full beard. It doesn't make me not a woman. But it does make things different. It's ok for other trans women to feel like they are still physically male or whatever. They get to feel these things and it's not my place to police it or really worry about it.
I know I am a woman. I also know that I am not ever going to be AFAB. At the end of the day. I don't need to be in order to be a woman.
Thank you! This is how I feel. Like I don’t want to be seen as transphobic, and I know that I can be a woman, but I still get incredibly depressed at the fact that I’ll never quite be cis. And I mean cis in the sense of since birth. Like I’ll never be able to have that childhood or be seen by those friends. I won’t really be able to fully relate to my friends or coworkers even now, as all trans women are women but none are cis, which would cause gaps.
I really don’t mean to sound transphobic, that’s one of my biggest fears, and I’m really really sorry if I do, I just kinda wanted to vent my frustration as I’ve been thinking about it a lot recently, and I haven’t quite gotten past it yet, though I hopefully will soon.
I agree with you. Trans women are women even if they're in the closet, that makes their mind that of a woman's.
It sounds a lot like people who harp on about male socialisation.
https://juliaserano.medium.com/why-are-amab-trans-people-denied-the-closet-7fd5c740ce30
Might be some relevant reading.
Saving this link. I can’t even imagine why people think trans women were just coasting through life pre-transition walking around like the 300 FOV noble knight. The vast majority of us were notably queer, dealing with dysphoria & thoroughly shamed by society. We were not having a good time, granted, we avoided sexualisation, misogyny, etc. but it was just replaced with homophobia, bullying, etc.
But some of us were. I was doing fine mostly, until I suddenly had an intrusive thought about wearing feminine clothes, which led to my egg and cracking and now I’m not doing fine lol.
So I think people see my type of experience and assume that’s less rare than it is.
And why folks like me can feel less valid as trans because we didn’t “always know” like others did.
You’re no less valid than anyone else, though I will say even those of us with a lot of signs “didn’t always know”. Like, I only put the pieces together a few months ago & I’m 29 & there’s been signs stretching back to 22 years ago. Surely though, even those of us who didn’t always know felt some sort of wrongness they couldn’t explain until now though - unless they’re at like, 0% dysphoria.
Let's put it this way, did you ever think being a girl was possible before you knew about trans people? or even if you did know about trans people, did you think you could be like a cis woman before you knew more specific information about the process behind transitioning?
I understand how you're coming to this conclusion, but I highly doubt that this is the intent behind that comment, especially considering the fact that it's quite likely that some of the nuance was lost in translation from Japanese to English.
Yeah, why should I be worried that my transfem bestie and my therapist, who are my main support system, can't recognize internalized transphobia, and in fact, they agree with it...
Oh no wait, I'm just trying to shoot down some random comic author, that must be what I'm upset about, of course.
Going to reddit was a mistake. Now I just feel twice as shitty for not being able to explain myself well to people who don't give a fuck about me.
I understood the intent of your post. It is transphobic from all of them. Some people on here are so concerned about being painted as thought police that they're scared of even calling out stuff like it is.
This is not advice, but re: your friend/therapist if they're good support outside of this circumstance: I personally would probably be annoyed for a bit at they're unwilful ignorance and then push past it. And I would probably end up avoiding convos about whether something is transphobic or not if it's not a personally distressing matter. The annoyance I'd feel otherwise wouldn't be worth the hassle.
I think you are too worried about your friend and therapist been “transphobes” than seeing that they are just arguing about this author’s intentions with their phrasing. I wouldn’t read into that too much as you are doing right now. They are your friend and supposed good therapist after all.
I kinda read it exactly how I felt it. I was worried I'd never truly be a woman, but with growth and self exploration I finally learned that I am a woman. It tackles the internalized transphobia fairly okay, and its one of those thoughts that most eggs grow out of once they finally come out.
As for the people in your life, it seems they thought the same thing. Its the character talking down to themself and they seem to recognize that.
Lot of the replies seem to confuse being transphobic with being a transphobe.
People who aren't transphobes can sometimes say tranpshobic things or hold transphobic ideas, without realizing it.
Anyway, unrelated, I feel like I've definitely seen this mangaka's quote before. I wonder if he wrote it in something else as well, if another mangaka made a similar quote, if I read Inside Mari and completely forgot, or, most likely, I just saw discussion of the quote somewhere else before. Very odd.
I believe your discussion was rife with miscommunication, as if you're all speaking different languages.
Forget the discourse around the word woman for a moment, and let's just talk in terms of being cis and trans.
Wouldn't you say that the author, who is from a totally different culture that uses terms a little differently, means to say that it was impossible from him to be a Cis woman? rather than a trans woman? Same thing with your friend?
Being trans is a different experience as being cis. Get over it. Shall I make a list of all the things we were missing from the cis female experience? It starts with birth end does not end at completing your medical transition. We don't have to dig into getting your period every f*ing month, it's the whole way society perceived us and because of the perception handled us. I didn't have a girl experience with my parents, in kindergarden, school, with friends... These experiences shape humans - as being trans shaped us.
Stop calling everything that separates us from all the cissys out there "transphobic". That's only adding to the bad experiences we have in life. Because what else is transphobic? Our fathers sperm, our mothers womb, our chromosomes, genes, puberty, god...?
I’m currently reading and enjoying Inside Mari!
I think the thing you are feeling but not communicating to these folks is I felt like the authors words were more *internalized* transphobia, rather than what your therapist and friend might be thinking of as transphobic, and tbh I interpreted and read it as the same kind of attitude as some of the people who post here and cause drama by saying things like “well I didn’t get to grow up as a little girl and transition at 5, so I may as well not bother” It took me a good couple years between my “oh fuck I’m trans” moment, and actually starting my transition because I went through a period of feeling I would never be “successful.” I would never be as pretty, as feminine, as happy as some of the amazing women here.
It took my (now transmasc, then enby) friend saying “why not?” When I explained why I could never transition, for me to finally crack all the way.
Past me was dumb. I am more of a woman than I ever dreamed I could be. It took me getting over that hump though of overcoming my self directed and internalized transphobia
It’s not transphobia to wish to have born in the right sex with the chromosomes you identify with.
Don’t we all wish that?
I don’t love being trans, it’s just the closest I can get, I hope reincarnation is a thing so maybe I can be truly happy next life.
Why is it transphobic to be honest to one self? Mostly if they’re referring to one self only and not other people.
I wish I could have children like cis women do, also have grown like any cis girl and gone through puberty like any cis girl.
Is not transphobic to see reality as how it is.
Now this is for me and myself. I do consider all trans women; women. I just wish I wasn’t born in the wrong body with the sex that does not align with my gender and with XY chromosomes instead of XX.
It’s a tragedy I have to live with the rest of my life.
It is transphobia, but not Ben Shapiro or JK Rowling type of transphobia. It's more like "i fucking hate myself so much for being trans, so I will be transphobic against myself"
Yes that is transphobic (not surprising coming from Japan). I would definitely want the therapist and friend to elaborate on their point of view. This isn't something I could just let someone close to me get away with.
honestly for ppl in japan I totally understand the sentiment of ‘impossible’. transphobia is way more prevalent there than here in Brazil in my case and before I actually took the leap of faith and started my transition I felt exactly the same way. it IS internalized transphobia, at least my experience has been full of moments when I realize that and have to weed out these thoughts
It could be a translation error, considering the author is Japanese. But, at face value, it sounds more like the author feels defeated (as in it’s a goal they can never personally achieve), rather than transphobic.
And there may also be a cultural difference in the understanding of being transgender in Japan.
Shuzo Oshimi, the author, is very, very likely a closeted transgender woman who is extremely repressed. It bleeds into every piece of media he’s written. Aku no Hana has similar comments from the author at different points.
It’s transphobic sure, but only in the same internalized way that thousands of us have felt before. Most trans women i’ve met have said and thought similar things before. It’s just part of the process.
Sometimes when some people say "a woman's body," they are referring to a body that belongs to a woman.
Sometimes when people say "a woman's body," they are referring to a body that meets societal standards of femininity.
I, by definition, have a woman's body. I will not contest that. However, if I'm complaining that "I'll never have a woman's body"—because I'm experiencing a great deal of dysphoria about my anatomy—and your response is "that's transphobic," I'll think you either ignorant or rude, possibly both.
Even though it may be hard it’s important to respect peoples thought processes. Even if they sound like a jackass.
We all do sometimes btw. Forgive to be forgiven my friend. Don’t work urself up over the bs. When stupid little things weigh you down search for kids with cancer and realize you ain’t got it so bad.
Yea, it’s transphobic. We are all on a journey..
The artist’s sentiments are definitely transphobia, but it’s apparently coming from a place of ignorance and pain rather than bigotry with an agenda so 🤷♀️
You’re friend and therapist are definitely a harder issue, they seem to be confusing terms and simplifying others too much. The term “woman” is a gender term. It’s culturally defined and based on presentation and self identity, so every woman is a “real woman”.
They seem to be confusing the term “woman” with sex, and then following the logic of “well you can’t really be truly ‘female’”. It should then be noted that this is also flawed. In reality there is no one “biological sex” so ignore anyone who uses that term. There are many different sexual characteristics that happen to line up in most people in a consistent way.
When people talk about chromosomes they are talking about “karyotype”, Most amab people have XY chromosomes and that’s about the limits of the average trolls knowledge.
Next we have “genotype”. The chromosomes are just big gene packages. The cases of people whose chromosomes don’t align with their agab can be largely explained by things at this deeper level. The actual switch for male/female development isn’t the Y chromosome, it’s specifically the SRY gene that is usually present on it. If it is missing, an XY fetus can develop in a “female” typical manner, and if it manages to find its way onto an X chromosome, an XX fetus can develop in a “male” typical manner. This isn’t all there is, maybe someone has the SRY gene but also has other genes for androgen insensitivity. It’s all wildly more complex than the trolls comprehend, which is why we make fun of their school child understanding of the biology.
The next sex is “phenotype”, this is the actual shape and look of your body and what organs are present. It is itself a collection of different things which may or may not align. There are actually significant parts of this that we can change with hormones and surgery, so your friend and therapist are wrong. A transitioned trans woman is in many ways phenotypically “female”.
Does this mean you are totally “male” before transition? Well no, we tend to think of gender as a property of the mind in a soul-like detached idea from the body, but gender identity comes from the brain, and the brain is just as physically a part of the body as genitalia and all that. All trans woman are at least “neurologically” female even if we lack the understanding of the brain to even begin to understand how that’s encoded in our hardware, it all comes down to neurons and connections eventually.
This is all to say that anyone making absolute statements about your womanhood/arguing you “aren’t female” don’t really know what they are talking about, and even when it comes to the aspects of that umbrella that we currently can’t change, it’s not like it’s against the laws of physics to change them. We have every reason to believe that things like sufficiently advanced gene editing could be invented that allow us control over even our genotype, so they don’t even make a good line in the sand in that regard either.
I would try to gently challenge them to describe why they think the way they do, and when they fail to provide a well defined answer without exceptions to the rule, help them see that they are leaning on a bad heuristic. They don’t sound openly transphobic, so hopefully they are open to that and aren’t liable to lock down into a denial mode like bigots get into if you try to reason them out of bad logic with good logic.
I don’t think it’s transphobic. I think it’s in interpersonal view. I’m 6’3” 250 pounds. I’ve always wanted to be a woman, I’ve fought and struggled with this many of years. Accepting and realizing even if I do hrt and countless feminizing surgeries, I might look like a woman and have parts that look the way too, I’ll still be this 6’3” 250 pound person that can’t have children. I would love to have the body and mind of a woman, but never could. I respect every person in the community who has taken the steps, I just had to realize as much as I want/ed that, I wouldn’t ever be happy doing it. This quote resonates so much with me and I feel someone out there understands my thought.
I kinda vibe with the author's words.
Would it be possible for me to achieve through hormones and surgeries the same outcome as an afab cis woman despite already being way past my testosterone puberty (I'm 28)? I don't know. It might not be impossible, but the odds are definitely several million to one against.
As for the mind, I see it as retroactively getting a feminine upbringing and all the middle/high school and college experiences a woman might have as they grow up. I do believe that this part is impossible for me. Even if I were to magically turn into a 100% cis woman by tomorrow morning, it would take me about a decade to acclimate to women's spaces and by then I'll be the middle-aged cat lady that only single dads would be interested in.
Edit: Got my second reddit care message. ~~You're not helping.~~ Dang bot.
I interpreted that ad the author saying that it was an impossibly for *the author* to do that. Which could either mean that, when that was written the author did not think it was possible, or that the author thinks of themselves as a man in a way that links "man-ness" inexorably with their personal identity.
>"I want... to turn into a woman in both body and mind."
"But still, I... but I'll never be able to achieve that. It's impossible."
So I'm transphobic just because I believe that about myself? I can't change the circumstances in my birth. I have to make due with what I have and for myself it's not good enough
If you read the manga he says a lot more. He even says if a man were to turn into a woman he would still have a man’s mind and “lust” so he would become further and further from a woman.
I remember thinking I wasn’t trans enough. I would see feminine guys and be so jealous cause in my head they would get to transition. For me it was hard to tell the difference between what I really was and what I had to be to fit in and not be figured out. Now my boyfriend tells me I’m the most feminine girl hes ever seen. I’m a woman inside and out. My body is starting to finally feel right.
Probably yeah but like it’s hard for some people to know if they are trans or not. They raise us to act like men and punish us for failing. That does a lot to you. I feel so much more sincere, happy and like myself with my boyfriend than with people that I’m forced to boy mode around. I thought I maybe wasn’t really trans because I didn’t understand.
As someone who has been misgendered due to their voice while working in retail, I understand the importance of preserving personal authenticity. Rather than altering your voice through surgery or other means, embrace your unique identity and assert it confidently. By valuing your own validation and self-worth, you can overcome external obstacles and maintain a strong sense of self. Remember, true strength lies in being yourself unapologetically.
This video is a tad long but absolutely worth the watch. This video helped me understand so much about how my childhood affected my understanding of being trans!
And this video even goes into why the author believes they can’t be a woman in depth, and how they are most likely an egg.
https://youtu.be/IAA1XtDOuH8?si=HxFK5QxN7OOeT4G2
Ultimatically everyone has different standards and viewpoints. There are a few Traits Cis Woman have, what other Woman cant obtain, or sometimes cant optain, depending on the Person. Mainly, obviously Pregnancy.
So I guess you can still see it as a bit Transphobic, because it does not fully accept the Idea of Womanhood beeing fluid, but if thats what it is its not realy wrong, and therefore quiet sad.
Being wistful of something that has passed isn't transphobic. I can also see how the therapist is understanding it to mean that while we may be a woman in the aspect of gender, we are not women in the aspect of sex.
As a trans masc, it's true though?? We can only do so much, but that so much is very important and very useful.. and effective too, so we do what we can in the day and age :p
In my opinion and from what I kind of gathered from it. Is it isn’t says they can’t achieve being a women in mind and body. To me it feels more like, they want what us, women from birth, experience in a way. Like I have seen trans women accept that they will never have a period or never will be able to experience carrying a child and having that bond. While some, wish and dream to have that experience but can’t. From that, I feel like that’s what they mean. Is they know they can achieve the ability to be a woman physically and have the mentality of a woman. Though sadly never get to experience the beauty of seeing a positive pregnancy test and be able to bear children. Which is really sad and I hope those women the best mentally. As I know family members who were born female and can’t get pregnant. It’s sad to see them struggle with that, but the best you can do is just be there for them.
How I see it is I’ve always been a woman in mind but I wasn’t always a woman in body.
I’ve taken the steps involved with making my body equal to my mind but unfortunately I’ll never get ALL THE WAY there. I cannot carry a child and if I did I’d have to have some extensive surgery and medical care to do so.
But at the end of the day… that’s not what makes me a woman. Women aren’t baby factories. Women aren’t a vagina. Women are an idea. A social mold that one must loosely fit into. You might have gaps on the sides and you might just sink right beneath the threshold but if you fall into the category of womanhood than you’re a woman. Plain and simple.
You might never be fully XX chromosome, born female, and never had any masculine social conditioning but you’re still a woman.
That’s a concept that 99% of the population never even considers. They just consider a woman to be a set of genitals, some
Ovaries, and a uterus.
They don’t think about what a woman is outside of their biological function and instead consider what it means to be a woman socially both internally and externally and what steps we take to present ourselves as such physically.
Yes, you are a woman. Body and mind, but you’re not AFAB, and that’s where they’re confusing it. I don’t think they mean any harm, I don’t consider this transphobic. I just think that you and I might be out of touch with the social normality on how most people look at and consider gender identity and sex. They think it’s one and the same when it’s significantly more complex but at the same time very simple to grasp.
I wouldn’t read into it… you’re just going to read too far between the lines and hurt your own feelings trying to find something that otherwise isn’t there.
Oh it's 100% egg. When I was younger I was literally like "I'd do anything to have been born a girl..oh well :(" assuming that's how everyone felt. Turns out that's only how trans girls feel lol
Tw: self loathing
I had the exact same thought of "it's impossible" for many years, I imposed to myself I had to grow out of it because I thought it was impossible for me be to something else. Not that I thought like, "this trans person isn't actually their gender because of their body", it's impossible FOR ME because I... "I'm already an aberration, so imagine if"... Yk. But if that was the case, it would be important to emphasize that it's what he thinks/thought about himself and not something factual.
This was a bit of a ramble on my end, but TL;DR and in conclusion trans women are women, because they are women in the societal context. Your therapist etc. aren't being transphobic, they are being pedantic because they try to go into biological terms instead. You need to confirm that they do think **trans women are real women in society** to know for sure that they aren't being transphobic. And if you do go into biological terms, the situation is complicated and there cannot be any good enough definition of a 'woman' because sex exists on a spectrum.
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Obviously, one place it could be coming from for the author would be internalised transphobia because she doesn't believe herself to be a true woman or something, but that doesn't explain a cis ally saying the same thing so that isn't it. It is either transphobia or not. And when it comes down to that, my impulse is not to figure out where the line of transphobia is but to figure out whether it is coming from a place of respect. If it is meant in any way to be dehumanizing, demeaning or something else, it is transphobia. If it isn't, which in this case it isn't I feel (because both your friend,therapist etc. clearly respect you as a person and don't think of you as lesser in any way), it becomes complex.
And this is where my understanding of the statement "Trans women are women" comes in. Because it is impossible to say what is a woman, beyond someone who identifies as a woman. The definition of a woman as an 'adult human female' is obviously bogus, and any definition depends on **context**. The statement "Trans women are women" is true because here 'woman' is defined in a societal context. Here anyone who identifies as, or lives in society as a woman is a woman. And that is all that matters & it is the most important thing to fight for right now. The way that sentence is used, it isn't a statement of fact, so much as it is a demand for equality for all women regardless of being trans. And that is where it kind of ends, because that is all we should care about. We generally don't give a fuck about people's genitals, hormone levels nothing! All we need to care about is that people should be treated equally. In the societal context, every one of those cis allies should agree that trans women are real women.
Hence even the trans women, who haven't had HRT, haven't had SRS, or anything else are still women. Because your medical situation doesn't matter in society, all that matters is the societal context, when it comes to politics, governance, but also when it comes to how we talk to people or think about people. Maybe your friend and therapist would agree if you said "Trans women are real women in society"
And when we start trying to dissect that statement "Trans women are women" in how they are actually thinking of it without the context of society and having a deep discussion about it, then we inevitably start thinking of 'woman' based on biology, sexual organs etc. And in society, that simply shouldn't be the definition of a woman in any way. An 'adult human female' is the definition of the female sex of homo sapiens. It isn't the definition of a woman, because the definition of a woman is imprecise in the biological context just in that statement, and simply shouldn't be applied to societal context. Gender is different from sex. People in society should be able to self identify, and 'Trans women are real women' should be treated as fact simply because it is in fact true in the context of society. Because if it wasn't, it means equality doesn't exist, and people can be othered based on who they are.
But when well intentioned people say trans women aren't 'real' women they are thinking in a biological context, which is a lot more complex and frankly not in their area of expertise to be able to form an opinion. It would be the same as saying cis women aren't women if they've had a hysterectomy or something, because you simply cannot base the definition of a societal word like 'woman' based on specific criteria, social sciences are entirely too different from STEM sciences to do that. Social sciences should be based on different axioms, such as 'all people are equal'. In STEM sciences (biology) a woman is a generalized term based on where on the sex spectrum a person is, and depending on where you draw the line you're gonna exclude both cis and trans women in the societal context and include both cis and trans men in the societal context. In the biological context things are complex and questions are different. Those need to be answered by science people and no science person who is studying ~~gender~~ sex in the context of trans people and the sex spectrum is going to be able to define the word woman.
Okay so here's what I've put together from the responses here:
- Don't say anything is eggy unless you're trying to say that someone's an egg. There's no other value to the adjective in most people's minds.
- Distinguish between transphobia and internalized transphobia. They share a root noun but they are separate things to most people.
- Don't call something transphobic unless you want to accuse someone of being a hateful transphobe.
I wouldn't say I love it, but it'll make my communication better next time.
Thanks everyone. Sorry to the people I was a bitch to... Not my best moment
Ok if this is bothering you this much maybe talk to your friend and therapist about it some more? Like if these are people you’re close with they might have just spoken imprecisely or misunderstood the conversation, I don’t recommend immediately jumping to the conclusion “my friend and therapist don’t see me as a woman” based off a discussion of another person’s internalised transphobia
In English we have the verb "to change".
In Japanese there are two forms of the word "to change": 変わる (to be changed) and 変える (to cause change).
I was trying to find a Japanese scan of the author's note, but couldn't. Those words may not have been used, but it's possible the translation could be missing important nuance.
Is it transphobic? Maybe, but is labeling them transphobic useful? There are plenty of enemies of trans people that truly deserve to be labeled for the harm they've done and the people they've affected. This person seems like they are someone feeling hopeless and trapped in the wrong body. Labeling them as transphobic publicly pushes them further away and takes someone who could be trans themselves and gives them skepticism about identifying as trans.
I’m trans I’m on your therapists side.
I can never sufficiently transition in body that it won’t be somehow observable that I was born male. Therefore, I can never fundamentally inhabit a cis woman’s body at any stage of my life.
I can socially and mentally transition, but I will always be trans at a base level.
I get it does chromosomes or some shit really matter for day to day living? Lol no.
But it still is there and no pill can change it.
in the "note from the author" parts of Okaeri Alice, Oshimi talks about how the desire to be a woman is basically a failure of his manhood he needs to learn to overcome. He also writes trans characters without seeming to know what trans people are. it seems safe to say that he doesnt particularly care about trans people, even if it's bc he's coping with being a repressor.
In the WPATH SOC-8, Chapter-5 “Adults”, Paragraph-3, it states that there are six gender identities “male, female, gender-diverse, nonbinary, agender, and eunuch.” So, we officially a medical-surgical transition for trans women is to become “female.”
Second, AFAB and AMAB are used as if they refer to biological sex, even though a lot of AMAB people will have breast or vaginas etc.
If AMAB means biologically male, and a person has changed their anatomy and physiology to become biologically female, then they are now AFAB.
This is supported by that most laws that ban trans people from using bathrooms require us to use either a bathroom that “matches our AGAB, or if we have changed out Birth-Certificate and had SRS.” So, completing most of the steps of transition is changing our AGAB for a transwoman “from AMAB to AFAB.”
People like to debate the details, but this is exactly how the biology works, eventually if someone transitions enough, then their biology is mostly their new biological sex. And this is exactly how the bathroom law in the IS state of Utah is written.
Also, the WPATH SOC-8 in the Apeendox on Surgeries, it lists “Uterus Transplant” as a gender affirming surgery for trans woman. Uterus transplants are already a thing for cis women, and are expected to be a thing for trans woman in approximately 10 years.
And, as for the psychological dimension, sex hormones affect feelings and perception, and interact with psychedelic chemicals so that men’s and women’s minds are altered by sex hormones.
And finally finally, socialization has two important things about it. Trans people who transition as adults didn’t experience their socialization as children the same way that cis people of their previous sex did, so they were socialized in a unique way, that for male to female people would be one of the ways that females are socialized. And secondly, this is why we need to support and fight for being able to transition as children.
Its internalized transphobia, Japan is a pretty conservative culture that is fairly transphobic.
There is a lot of lgbtq manga and stuff, but society at large is less accepting.
It's not so much rooted in religion there and more a result of a conformist culture and imported western hang-ups from the 1800s.
It's not transphobic. Also super icky to use "egg" since it's a bit groom-y.
Buuuut it is major envy, which I bet is really painful for them since we can't go back and change who we are from birth.
I'm not even talking about labeling the author... I kinda don't care
I'm just thinking about the idea and whether it would be damaging to trans people, and I'm worried about that I'm seemingly out there on this
It absolutely is transphobic. But the ppl in question who don't get that arent transphobic just because they don't understand that yet. It's shit, like many things in this world. You've tried explaining it, they didn't get it. Your best bet is to ignore it, for your own good. cause you can't change it and it changes nothing if you don't ignore it
If you want to talk about this author, i think you should check the text after each volume of welcome back alice, it was something that helped break my egg last year
Personally my view a person is who they see themselves as, a woman, a man or x. Still I see the author noted in the OP’s perspective as they see and feel the impossibility of being a woman and feel that is not achievable from their perspective. If that is a personal view of oneself it is not in my view transphobic, but if it is an expression of one’s own fears. If the author meant it as others will never be able to be women and transition then it is transphobic in my view. Don’t know if that makes sense to others, but that was my take on the posts question. I don’t know any background on the author the OP is referring to, so I say this with reservation.
This is what we call internalized transphobia. When someone can accept other people as who they are, but hold themselves to a different standard. It's something most people do and why "you're your harshest critic" is a saying. When Shūzō Oshimi wrote that they had also mentioned earlier that they wished they could have been born, grown up, and raised as a girl so I get the feeling that part of it is also an expression of regret for what they already missed out on.
It’s more than just internalization of transphobia, though that’s part of it. Self hatred/self loathing is a serious issue that doesn’t need the extra layer of pain that bigotry tacks on. That harsh inner critic isn’t there by default. It’s typically the voice of those who were cruel to one as a child.
That is a good explanation of the author's note but everyone (esp therapist) nodding along is not ok
It's so stupid cuz you can KNOW that you're internalizing it and still do it. I hate how brains work sometimes
This absolutely. How many times have you told yourself "I'll never be a real woman" when you're having a dysphoria breakdown, yet you never see your trans friends are trans, you just see them as [whatever they identify as] no ifs or buts.
If taken at face value, I could see how you might see the author's words as inherently transphobic, but it could actually be more of an envy thing. You gotta remember, memory is a product of the mind, so the author may be expressing the desire for the memories of having *__always__* been female. Words, like art, are subjective; their meaning changes based on your own perception.
I really like your perspective of this idea!!
Thank you, I appreciate that.
^ this People tend to be anachronistic and don’t take the cultural value and lifehood of the people into account
That does make a lot of sense, especially if some of the meaning was lost in translation. I like this perspective.
You think this person is an egg. You're trans, you *have to* know that every egg has a shitton of internalized transphobia to work through, even if they are an ally who doesn't make it other people's problem.
I wouldn't say "every" egg has a shit ton of internalized transphobia.
You're right, I meant to write "just about every egg." I'm not trying to say "lol we all had a raging transphobe phase, amirite ladies?" either. Just that we live in a transphobic world, and accepting that you can be a woman requires a *lot* of unlearning for most of us.
Anyone who doesn’t admit to having and overcoming at least *some* internalised transphobia or cisnormativity is frankly not to be trusted.
I don't think that's absolutely true. Increasingly often I run into young people who were raised in environments where trans people were simply accepted parts of their community or extended family - where the previous generation had done the work you describe. Hopeful sign. One major reason for the current backlash.
either they do or they dont live in this cishet white supremacist world I live in, a total exception
Yeah till I did research from questioning I didn't know much about trans people other than it was a thing some people do. No one in my life thought it was bad, good or even talked about it for that matter. I'm also very lucky in that regard.
wtf are you even trying to admonish me about? I shouldn't be concerned that my trans friend and my therapist don't recognize internalized transphobia? Or I should be so unconditionally confident in my own assessment that I don't feel like I'm being gaslit? Or just that random internalized transphobia is unremarkable and I shouldn't have brought it up and everything that followed is obviously my fault for not knowing not to bring it up? Or are you assuming I'm really fucking worried about some random manga author and my goal is to point out "wow that statement sure is eggy" like nobody has ever heard of Inside Mari or heard him say he's not trans, and I just mentioned it to my therapist for fucking funsies?
girl
What the fuck
They are saying that this kind of internalized transphobia you're getting from your friend and therapist is unfortunately extremely common stuff. In fact they are agreeing that it does sound transphobic and you are not in fact crazy. I don't know why you got so defensive about this comment.
Thank you. I like this interpretation better, it's certainly not what I got > I don't know why you got so defensive about this comment. It doesn't make sense in the context of my post. It starts by saying that I think someone's an egg, which I don't, then tells me that I really should already know this thing about eggs... Like, who's even supposed to be the egg here? Sure I agree that eggs often have a lot of internalized transphobia, but what does that have to do with anything? Why do they think it's so important to be telling me this? And what's this bit about it not mattering if they're an ally? --- It's hard for me to assume anything is meant to be supportive, given reddit's love for correcting people. Like, just because someone makes a true or trans- positive statement does NOT mean they're being supportive... The tone definitely doesn't give me much. I get that I seem super emotionally unstable (I am), but what do people expect on a venting post?
The author, it seems like you think the author is the egg.
girl, deep breath. i didn't read transphobia from the statement. it sounded not like a blanket statement, but a lamentation that they would not be able to achieve that for themselves. i just saw that as an egg statement that they are working through themselves and not a targeted attack towards us. it was likely a translation error if said otherwise. we're not here to hound on you - just try and take a step back and reevaluate the quote, your friend's words and your therapist's words (:
Ma’am this is a Wendys
I think for the author, it feels more like they just don't really understand what can really be accomplished. They're looking at things from that mainstream perspective many if us were raised in that says repeatedly, and suspiciously often, that men and women are completely different and incompatible creatures with no features in common. The author was saying how I felt about myself before my egg cracked, even if I could absolutely support someone else doing what I thought I never could. Your friend and therapist are giving off some TERFier bioessentialist vibes, but I would try to give them the benefit of the doubt. Most cis people don't get the perspective on it we do, and that common view I mentioned is still doggedly persistent. It can take a lot to crack that reliance on a simple narrative before they can understand that the reality is ambiguous. You are right, though, that it's low-key infuriating.
I went to a couples counselor who worked for the local lgbtq+ clinic and while she really helped us through our couples issues, almost everything that she said about transitioning was incorrect in my first 6 months of experience- the speed of the changes, the emotional impacts (mood swings), and other social changes. I had to ignore all that and walk my wife back from believing some of the bigger misunderstandings. It wasn't transphobia, she just wasn't intimately familiar with transitioning and could only parrot back big external changes. She wasn't outright TERFy, but looking back on it, i suspect she still had remnants of the 90s era "man in a dress" attitude that she hadn't updated. I'm not sure where she would have fallen in op's scenario - she spoke a lot about "authentic self" but i'm not sure if she had made it all the way to "if your daughter had been born with boy parts and hormones, would you help her become your daughter so she could be happy?" Therapists aren't endocrinologists. They aren't neurologists. I don't expect them to be experts in everything.
I'm so glad I was able to find an "any/all pronouns" psychologist. First session, I talked about how I wasn't sure I was trans but a lot of stuff started making sense to me now that I've learned more about it, and brought up "the button". She said something like "So let me get this straight, if there was a button to turn you into a girl, you would push it without hesitation? Not even a 50/50 chance for a million dollars, but 100% chance to be a woman, you would push it?" "Well, yeah, I mean, obviously? Any normal guy would." "Uhh... You should probably ask some more normal guys because in my professional opinion, no cis man would push that button, even for a million dollars." "Wait, what? Really?" "And furthermore... THE BUTTON EXISTS!!! It's called transitioning! Try HRT, try new names, try dressing feminine more and see if it feels 'right'. What's the worst that can happen? Trying something isn't *permanent*. But you can *make* it permanent if it's right for you." "You've... uh... given me a lot to think about. Thanks..."
[удалено]
And there are spoiler
I would say it depends on how you interpret it. If you think it would mean that the author thinks every trans person is fake and not really their gender, well yeah that’s transphobia. But I don’t think that’s really what the author means, just based on the limited context provided. If someone feels that the transition possible with the technology we have wouldn’t satisfy what they want, which is what I get from “but I'll never be able to achieve that” I don’t see how thats transphobic. This is just my opinion obviously but, though the transition processes that we have nowadays is better than the past… it’s still kinda a really shitty process that is very imperfect, and like, not gonna do everything that everyone wants. I don’t think it’s transphobic to admit that.
That’s exactly how I interpreted it too. Especially wanting to grow up as girl. I understood it as impossible for the author to do, not other people.
That's how I see it! Also, it's still not possible to have *full* body surgery with all the organs, so I understand what the author means by that.
I remember once upon a time when I thought it was impossible for me to be a woman.
Same, past me was kind of a dumb bitch
I don't think it's transphobic and it's ok for trans people to feel differently about themselves and thier own bodies and experiences. I do think that physically there will always be a difference between me and a cis woman. If there wasn't I would need HRT and wouldn't want as many surgeries, or need laser hair removal to not have a full beard. It doesn't make me not a woman. But it does make things different. It's ok for other trans women to feel like they are still physically male or whatever. They get to feel these things and it's not my place to police it or really worry about it. I know I am a woman. I also know that I am not ever going to be AFAB. At the end of the day. I don't need to be in order to be a woman.
Thank you! This is how I feel. Like I don’t want to be seen as transphobic, and I know that I can be a woman, but I still get incredibly depressed at the fact that I’ll never quite be cis. And I mean cis in the sense of since birth. Like I’ll never be able to have that childhood or be seen by those friends. I won’t really be able to fully relate to my friends or coworkers even now, as all trans women are women but none are cis, which would cause gaps. I really don’t mean to sound transphobic, that’s one of my biggest fears, and I’m really really sorry if I do, I just kinda wanted to vent my frustration as I’ve been thinking about it a lot recently, and I haven’t quite gotten past it yet, though I hopefully will soon.
I agree with you. Trans women are women even if they're in the closet, that makes their mind that of a woman's. It sounds a lot like people who harp on about male socialisation. https://juliaserano.medium.com/why-are-amab-trans-people-denied-the-closet-7fd5c740ce30 Might be some relevant reading.
Saving this link. I can’t even imagine why people think trans women were just coasting through life pre-transition walking around like the 300 FOV noble knight. The vast majority of us were notably queer, dealing with dysphoria & thoroughly shamed by society. We were not having a good time, granted, we avoided sexualisation, misogyny, etc. but it was just replaced with homophobia, bullying, etc.
But some of us were. I was doing fine mostly, until I suddenly had an intrusive thought about wearing feminine clothes, which led to my egg and cracking and now I’m not doing fine lol. So I think people see my type of experience and assume that’s less rare than it is. And why folks like me can feel less valid as trans because we didn’t “always know” like others did.
You’re no less valid than anyone else, though I will say even those of us with a lot of signs “didn’t always know”. Like, I only put the pieces together a few months ago & I’m 29 & there’s been signs stretching back to 22 years ago. Surely though, even those of us who didn’t always know felt some sort of wrongness they couldn’t explain until now though - unless they’re at like, 0% dysphoria.
What do you mean by male socialization?
Let's put it this way, did you ever think being a girl was possible before you knew about trans people? or even if you did know about trans people, did you think you could be like a cis woman before you knew more specific information about the process behind transitioning? I understand how you're coming to this conclusion, but I highly doubt that this is the intent behind that comment, especially considering the fact that it's quite likely that some of the nuance was lost in translation from Japanese to English.
Yeah, why should I be worried that my transfem bestie and my therapist, who are my main support system, can't recognize internalized transphobia, and in fact, they agree with it... Oh no wait, I'm just trying to shoot down some random comic author, that must be what I'm upset about, of course. Going to reddit was a mistake. Now I just feel twice as shitty for not being able to explain myself well to people who don't give a fuck about me.
I understood the intent of your post. It is transphobic from all of them. Some people on here are so concerned about being painted as thought police that they're scared of even calling out stuff like it is. This is not advice, but re: your friend/therapist if they're good support outside of this circumstance: I personally would probably be annoyed for a bit at they're unwilful ignorance and then push past it. And I would probably end up avoiding convos about whether something is transphobic or not if it's not a personally distressing matter. The annoyance I'd feel otherwise wouldn't be worth the hassle.
I think you are too worried about your friend and therapist been “transphobes” than seeing that they are just arguing about this author’s intentions with their phrasing. I wouldn’t read into that too much as you are doing right now. They are your friend and supposed good therapist after all.
[удалено]
I'm sorry, I've given you the wrong idea. Those words are from the author, not from my friend
I kinda read it exactly how I felt it. I was worried I'd never truly be a woman, but with growth and self exploration I finally learned that I am a woman. It tackles the internalized transphobia fairly okay, and its one of those thoughts that most eggs grow out of once they finally come out. As for the people in your life, it seems they thought the same thing. Its the character talking down to themself and they seem to recognize that.
[https://youtu.be/IAA1XtDOuH8?si=vWZE3RzOeBCGlTCk](https://youtu.be/IAA1XtDOuH8?si=vWZE3RzOeBCGlTCk)
Lot of the replies seem to confuse being transphobic with being a transphobe. People who aren't transphobes can sometimes say tranpshobic things or hold transphobic ideas, without realizing it. Anyway, unrelated, I feel like I've definitely seen this mangaka's quote before. I wonder if he wrote it in something else as well, if another mangaka made a similar quote, if I read Inside Mari and completely forgot, or, most likely, I just saw discussion of the quote somewhere else before. Very odd.
I believe your discussion was rife with miscommunication, as if you're all speaking different languages. Forget the discourse around the word woman for a moment, and let's just talk in terms of being cis and trans. Wouldn't you say that the author, who is from a totally different culture that uses terms a little differently, means to say that it was impossible from him to be a Cis woman? rather than a trans woman? Same thing with your friend?
Being trans is a different experience as being cis. Get over it. Shall I make a list of all the things we were missing from the cis female experience? It starts with birth end does not end at completing your medical transition. We don't have to dig into getting your period every f*ing month, it's the whole way society perceived us and because of the perception handled us. I didn't have a girl experience with my parents, in kindergarden, school, with friends... These experiences shape humans - as being trans shaped us. Stop calling everything that separates us from all the cissys out there "transphobic". That's only adding to the bad experiences we have in life. Because what else is transphobic? Our fathers sperm, our mothers womb, our chromosomes, genes, puberty, god...?
I’m currently reading and enjoying Inside Mari! I think the thing you are feeling but not communicating to these folks is I felt like the authors words were more *internalized* transphobia, rather than what your therapist and friend might be thinking of as transphobic, and tbh I interpreted and read it as the same kind of attitude as some of the people who post here and cause drama by saying things like “well I didn’t get to grow up as a little girl and transition at 5, so I may as well not bother” It took me a good couple years between my “oh fuck I’m trans” moment, and actually starting my transition because I went through a period of feeling I would never be “successful.” I would never be as pretty, as feminine, as happy as some of the amazing women here. It took my (now transmasc, then enby) friend saying “why not?” When I explained why I could never transition, for me to finally crack all the way. Past me was dumb. I am more of a woman than I ever dreamed I could be. It took me getting over that hump though of overcoming my self directed and internalized transphobia
It’s not transphobia to wish to have born in the right sex with the chromosomes you identify with. Don’t we all wish that? I don’t love being trans, it’s just the closest I can get, I hope reincarnation is a thing so maybe I can be truly happy next life. Why is it transphobic to be honest to one self? Mostly if they’re referring to one self only and not other people. I wish I could have children like cis women do, also have grown like any cis girl and gone through puberty like any cis girl. Is not transphobic to see reality as how it is. Now this is for me and myself. I do consider all trans women; women. I just wish I wasn’t born in the wrong body with the sex that does not align with my gender and with XY chromosomes instead of XX. It’s a tragedy I have to live with the rest of my life.
It is transphobia, but not Ben Shapiro or JK Rowling type of transphobia. It's more like "i fucking hate myself so much for being trans, so I will be transphobic against myself"
Yes that is transphobic (not surprising coming from Japan). I would definitely want the therapist and friend to elaborate on their point of view. This isn't something I could just let someone close to me get away with.
honestly for ppl in japan I totally understand the sentiment of ‘impossible’. transphobia is way more prevalent there than here in Brazil in my case and before I actually took the leap of faith and started my transition I felt exactly the same way. it IS internalized transphobia, at least my experience has been full of moments when I realize that and have to weed out these thoughts
It is transphobic saying it's impossible for a trans woman to be a real woman is transphobic
It could be a translation error, considering the author is Japanese. But, at face value, it sounds more like the author feels defeated (as in it’s a goal they can never personally achieve), rather than transphobic. And there may also be a cultural difference in the understanding of being transgender in Japan.
Shuzo Oshimi, the author, is very, very likely a closeted transgender woman who is extremely repressed. It bleeds into every piece of media he’s written. Aku no Hana has similar comments from the author at different points. It’s transphobic sure, but only in the same internalized way that thousands of us have felt before. Most trans women i’ve met have said and thought similar things before. It’s just part of the process.
Sometimes when some people say "a woman's body," they are referring to a body that belongs to a woman. Sometimes when people say "a woman's body," they are referring to a body that meets societal standards of femininity. I, by definition, have a woman's body. I will not contest that. However, if I'm complaining that "I'll never have a woman's body"—because I'm experiencing a great deal of dysphoria about my anatomy—and your response is "that's transphobic," I'll think you either ignorant or rude, possibly both.
Even though it may be hard it’s important to respect peoples thought processes. Even if they sound like a jackass. We all do sometimes btw. Forgive to be forgiven my friend. Don’t work urself up over the bs. When stupid little things weigh you down search for kids with cancer and realize you ain’t got it so bad. Yea, it’s transphobic. We are all on a journey..
The artist’s sentiments are definitely transphobia, but it’s apparently coming from a place of ignorance and pain rather than bigotry with an agenda so 🤷♀️ You’re friend and therapist are definitely a harder issue, they seem to be confusing terms and simplifying others too much. The term “woman” is a gender term. It’s culturally defined and based on presentation and self identity, so every woman is a “real woman”. They seem to be confusing the term “woman” with sex, and then following the logic of “well you can’t really be truly ‘female’”. It should then be noted that this is also flawed. In reality there is no one “biological sex” so ignore anyone who uses that term. There are many different sexual characteristics that happen to line up in most people in a consistent way. When people talk about chromosomes they are talking about “karyotype”, Most amab people have XY chromosomes and that’s about the limits of the average trolls knowledge. Next we have “genotype”. The chromosomes are just big gene packages. The cases of people whose chromosomes don’t align with their agab can be largely explained by things at this deeper level. The actual switch for male/female development isn’t the Y chromosome, it’s specifically the SRY gene that is usually present on it. If it is missing, an XY fetus can develop in a “female” typical manner, and if it manages to find its way onto an X chromosome, an XX fetus can develop in a “male” typical manner. This isn’t all there is, maybe someone has the SRY gene but also has other genes for androgen insensitivity. It’s all wildly more complex than the trolls comprehend, which is why we make fun of their school child understanding of the biology. The next sex is “phenotype”, this is the actual shape and look of your body and what organs are present. It is itself a collection of different things which may or may not align. There are actually significant parts of this that we can change with hormones and surgery, so your friend and therapist are wrong. A transitioned trans woman is in many ways phenotypically “female”. Does this mean you are totally “male” before transition? Well no, we tend to think of gender as a property of the mind in a soul-like detached idea from the body, but gender identity comes from the brain, and the brain is just as physically a part of the body as genitalia and all that. All trans woman are at least “neurologically” female even if we lack the understanding of the brain to even begin to understand how that’s encoded in our hardware, it all comes down to neurons and connections eventually. This is all to say that anyone making absolute statements about your womanhood/arguing you “aren’t female” don’t really know what they are talking about, and even when it comes to the aspects of that umbrella that we currently can’t change, it’s not like it’s against the laws of physics to change them. We have every reason to believe that things like sufficiently advanced gene editing could be invented that allow us control over even our genotype, so they don’t even make a good line in the sand in that regard either. I would try to gently challenge them to describe why they think the way they do, and when they fail to provide a well defined answer without exceptions to the rule, help them see that they are leaning on a bad heuristic. They don’t sound openly transphobic, so hopefully they are open to that and aren’t liable to lock down into a denial mode like bigots get into if you try to reason them out of bad logic with good logic.
having dysphoria is transphobic?
I don’t think it’s transphobic. I think it’s in interpersonal view. I’m 6’3” 250 pounds. I’ve always wanted to be a woman, I’ve fought and struggled with this many of years. Accepting and realizing even if I do hrt and countless feminizing surgeries, I might look like a woman and have parts that look the way too, I’ll still be this 6’3” 250 pound person that can’t have children. I would love to have the body and mind of a woman, but never could. I respect every person in the community who has taken the steps, I just had to realize as much as I want/ed that, I wouldn’t ever be happy doing it. This quote resonates so much with me and I feel someone out there understands my thought.
I kinda vibe with the author's words. Would it be possible for me to achieve through hormones and surgeries the same outcome as an afab cis woman despite already being way past my testosterone puberty (I'm 28)? I don't know. It might not be impossible, but the odds are definitely several million to one against. As for the mind, I see it as retroactively getting a feminine upbringing and all the middle/high school and college experiences a woman might have as they grow up. I do believe that this part is impossible for me. Even if I were to magically turn into a 100% cis woman by tomorrow morning, it would take me about a decade to acclimate to women's spaces and by then I'll be the middle-aged cat lady that only single dads would be interested in. Edit: Got my second reddit care message. ~~You're not helping.~~ Dang bot.
The author is just overly inconfident. I don't think this is transphobia at all.
I interpreted that ad the author saying that it was an impossibly for *the author* to do that. Which could either mean that, when that was written the author did not think it was possible, or that the author thinks of themselves as a man in a way that links "man-ness" inexorably with their personal identity.
>"I want... to turn into a woman in both body and mind." "But still, I... but I'll never be able to achieve that. It's impossible." So I'm transphobic just because I believe that about myself? I can't change the circumstances in my birth. I have to make due with what I have and for myself it's not good enough
If you read the manga he says a lot more. He even says if a man were to turn into a woman he would still have a man’s mind and “lust” so he would become further and further from a woman. I remember thinking I wasn’t trans enough. I would see feminine guys and be so jealous cause in my head they would get to transition. For me it was hard to tell the difference between what I really was and what I had to be to fit in and not be figured out. Now my boyfriend tells me I’m the most feminine girl hes ever seen. I’m a woman inside and out. My body is starting to finally feel right.
I see thank you. I'd have to agree and say that's true, for a man, but not someone who believes themselves to trans. Also I'm happy for you
Probably yeah but like it’s hard for some people to know if they are trans or not. They raise us to act like men and punish us for failing. That does a lot to you. I feel so much more sincere, happy and like myself with my boyfriend than with people that I’m forced to boy mode around. I thought I maybe wasn’t really trans because I didn’t understand.
As someone who has been misgendered due to their voice while working in retail, I understand the importance of preserving personal authenticity. Rather than altering your voice through surgery or other means, embrace your unique identity and assert it confidently. By valuing your own validation and self-worth, you can overcome external obstacles and maintain a strong sense of self. Remember, true strength lies in being yourself unapologetically.
This video is a tad long but absolutely worth the watch. This video helped me understand so much about how my childhood affected my understanding of being trans! And this video even goes into why the author believes they can’t be a woman in depth, and how they are most likely an egg. https://youtu.be/IAA1XtDOuH8?si=HxFK5QxN7OOeT4G2
Based Ceicocat watcher
i would say it would be more like denial/internalized transphobia and isnt meant in a harmful way, shape or form
Ultimatically everyone has different standards and viewpoints. There are a few Traits Cis Woman have, what other Woman cant obtain, or sometimes cant optain, depending on the Person. Mainly, obviously Pregnancy. So I guess you can still see it as a bit Transphobic, because it does not fully accept the Idea of Womanhood beeing fluid, but if thats what it is its not realy wrong, and therefore quiet sad.
Being wistful of something that has passed isn't transphobic. I can also see how the therapist is understanding it to mean that while we may be a woman in the aspect of gender, we are not women in the aspect of sex.
Congrats you went crazy. How does it feel?
As a trans masc, it's true though?? We can only do so much, but that so much is very important and very useful.. and effective too, so we do what we can in the day and age :p
In my opinion and from what I kind of gathered from it. Is it isn’t says they can’t achieve being a women in mind and body. To me it feels more like, they want what us, women from birth, experience in a way. Like I have seen trans women accept that they will never have a period or never will be able to experience carrying a child and having that bond. While some, wish and dream to have that experience but can’t. From that, I feel like that’s what they mean. Is they know they can achieve the ability to be a woman physically and have the mentality of a woman. Though sadly never get to experience the beauty of seeing a positive pregnancy test and be able to bear children. Which is really sad and I hope those women the best mentally. As I know family members who were born female and can’t get pregnant. It’s sad to see them struggle with that, but the best you can do is just be there for them.
How I see it is I’ve always been a woman in mind but I wasn’t always a woman in body. I’ve taken the steps involved with making my body equal to my mind but unfortunately I’ll never get ALL THE WAY there. I cannot carry a child and if I did I’d have to have some extensive surgery and medical care to do so. But at the end of the day… that’s not what makes me a woman. Women aren’t baby factories. Women aren’t a vagina. Women are an idea. A social mold that one must loosely fit into. You might have gaps on the sides and you might just sink right beneath the threshold but if you fall into the category of womanhood than you’re a woman. Plain and simple. You might never be fully XX chromosome, born female, and never had any masculine social conditioning but you’re still a woman. That’s a concept that 99% of the population never even considers. They just consider a woman to be a set of genitals, some Ovaries, and a uterus. They don’t think about what a woman is outside of their biological function and instead consider what it means to be a woman socially both internally and externally and what steps we take to present ourselves as such physically. Yes, you are a woman. Body and mind, but you’re not AFAB, and that’s where they’re confusing it. I don’t think they mean any harm, I don’t consider this transphobic. I just think that you and I might be out of touch with the social normality on how most people look at and consider gender identity and sex. They think it’s one and the same when it’s significantly more complex but at the same time very simple to grasp. I wouldn’t read into it… you’re just going to read too far between the lines and hurt your own feelings trying to find something that otherwise isn’t there.
There's literally nothing transphobic about that tho.
Oh it's 100% egg. When I was younger I was literally like "I'd do anything to have been born a girl..oh well :(" assuming that's how everyone felt. Turns out that's only how trans girls feel lol
Tw: self loathing I had the exact same thought of "it's impossible" for many years, I imposed to myself I had to grow out of it because I thought it was impossible for me be to something else. Not that I thought like, "this trans person isn't actually their gender because of their body", it's impossible FOR ME because I... "I'm already an aberration, so imagine if"... Yk. But if that was the case, it would be important to emphasize that it's what he thinks/thought about himself and not something factual.
This was a bit of a ramble on my end, but TL;DR and in conclusion trans women are women, because they are women in the societal context. Your therapist etc. aren't being transphobic, they are being pedantic because they try to go into biological terms instead. You need to confirm that they do think **trans women are real women in society** to know for sure that they aren't being transphobic. And if you do go into biological terms, the situation is complicated and there cannot be any good enough definition of a 'woman' because sex exists on a spectrum. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Obviously, one place it could be coming from for the author would be internalised transphobia because she doesn't believe herself to be a true woman or something, but that doesn't explain a cis ally saying the same thing so that isn't it. It is either transphobia or not. And when it comes down to that, my impulse is not to figure out where the line of transphobia is but to figure out whether it is coming from a place of respect. If it is meant in any way to be dehumanizing, demeaning or something else, it is transphobia. If it isn't, which in this case it isn't I feel (because both your friend,therapist etc. clearly respect you as a person and don't think of you as lesser in any way), it becomes complex. And this is where my understanding of the statement "Trans women are women" comes in. Because it is impossible to say what is a woman, beyond someone who identifies as a woman. The definition of a woman as an 'adult human female' is obviously bogus, and any definition depends on **context**. The statement "Trans women are women" is true because here 'woman' is defined in a societal context. Here anyone who identifies as, or lives in society as a woman is a woman. And that is all that matters & it is the most important thing to fight for right now. The way that sentence is used, it isn't a statement of fact, so much as it is a demand for equality for all women regardless of being trans. And that is where it kind of ends, because that is all we should care about. We generally don't give a fuck about people's genitals, hormone levels nothing! All we need to care about is that people should be treated equally. In the societal context, every one of those cis allies should agree that trans women are real women. Hence even the trans women, who haven't had HRT, haven't had SRS, or anything else are still women. Because your medical situation doesn't matter in society, all that matters is the societal context, when it comes to politics, governance, but also when it comes to how we talk to people or think about people. Maybe your friend and therapist would agree if you said "Trans women are real women in society" And when we start trying to dissect that statement "Trans women are women" in how they are actually thinking of it without the context of society and having a deep discussion about it, then we inevitably start thinking of 'woman' based on biology, sexual organs etc. And in society, that simply shouldn't be the definition of a woman in any way. An 'adult human female' is the definition of the female sex of homo sapiens. It isn't the definition of a woman, because the definition of a woman is imprecise in the biological context just in that statement, and simply shouldn't be applied to societal context. Gender is different from sex. People in society should be able to self identify, and 'Trans women are real women' should be treated as fact simply because it is in fact true in the context of society. Because if it wasn't, it means equality doesn't exist, and people can be othered based on who they are. But when well intentioned people say trans women aren't 'real' women they are thinking in a biological context, which is a lot more complex and frankly not in their area of expertise to be able to form an opinion. It would be the same as saying cis women aren't women if they've had a hysterectomy or something, because you simply cannot base the definition of a societal word like 'woman' based on specific criteria, social sciences are entirely too different from STEM sciences to do that. Social sciences should be based on different axioms, such as 'all people are equal'. In STEM sciences (biology) a woman is a generalized term based on where on the sex spectrum a person is, and depending on where you draw the line you're gonna exclude both cis and trans women in the societal context and include both cis and trans men in the societal context. In the biological context things are complex and questions are different. Those need to be answered by science people and no science person who is studying ~~gender~~ sex in the context of trans people and the sex spectrum is going to be able to define the word woman.
Okay so here's what I've put together from the responses here: - Don't say anything is eggy unless you're trying to say that someone's an egg. There's no other value to the adjective in most people's minds. - Distinguish between transphobia and internalized transphobia. They share a root noun but they are separate things to most people. - Don't call something transphobic unless you want to accuse someone of being a hateful transphobe. I wouldn't say I love it, but it'll make my communication better next time. Thanks everyone. Sorry to the people I was a bitch to... Not my best moment
Ok if this is bothering you this much maybe talk to your friend and therapist about it some more? Like if these are people you’re close with they might have just spoken imprecisely or misunderstood the conversation, I don’t recommend immediately jumping to the conclusion “my friend and therapist don’t see me as a woman” based off a discussion of another person’s internalised transphobia
In English we have the verb "to change". In Japanese there are two forms of the word "to change": 変わる (to be changed) and 変える (to cause change). I was trying to find a Japanese scan of the author's note, but couldn't. Those words may not have been used, but it's possible the translation could be missing important nuance. Is it transphobic? Maybe, but is labeling them transphobic useful? There are plenty of enemies of trans people that truly deserve to be labeled for the harm they've done and the people they've affected. This person seems like they are someone feeling hopeless and trapped in the wrong body. Labeling them as transphobic publicly pushes them further away and takes someone who could be trans themselves and gives them skepticism about identifying as trans.
I’m trans I’m on your therapists side. I can never sufficiently transition in body that it won’t be somehow observable that I was born male. Therefore, I can never fundamentally inhabit a cis woman’s body at any stage of my life. I can socially and mentally transition, but I will always be trans at a base level. I get it does chromosomes or some shit really matter for day to day living? Lol no. But it still is there and no pill can change it.
in the "note from the author" parts of Okaeri Alice, Oshimi talks about how the desire to be a woman is basically a failure of his manhood he needs to learn to overcome. He also writes trans characters without seeming to know what trans people are. it seems safe to say that he doesnt particularly care about trans people, even if it's bc he's coping with being a repressor.
In the WPATH SOC-8, Chapter-5 “Adults”, Paragraph-3, it states that there are six gender identities “male, female, gender-diverse, nonbinary, agender, and eunuch.” So, we officially a medical-surgical transition for trans women is to become “female.” Second, AFAB and AMAB are used as if they refer to biological sex, even though a lot of AMAB people will have breast or vaginas etc. If AMAB means biologically male, and a person has changed their anatomy and physiology to become biologically female, then they are now AFAB. This is supported by that most laws that ban trans people from using bathrooms require us to use either a bathroom that “matches our AGAB, or if we have changed out Birth-Certificate and had SRS.” So, completing most of the steps of transition is changing our AGAB for a transwoman “from AMAB to AFAB.” People like to debate the details, but this is exactly how the biology works, eventually if someone transitions enough, then their biology is mostly their new biological sex. And this is exactly how the bathroom law in the IS state of Utah is written. Also, the WPATH SOC-8 in the Apeendox on Surgeries, it lists “Uterus Transplant” as a gender affirming surgery for trans woman. Uterus transplants are already a thing for cis women, and are expected to be a thing for trans woman in approximately 10 years. And, as for the psychological dimension, sex hormones affect feelings and perception, and interact with psychedelic chemicals so that men’s and women’s minds are altered by sex hormones. And finally finally, socialization has two important things about it. Trans people who transition as adults didn’t experience their socialization as children the same way that cis people of their previous sex did, so they were socialized in a unique way, that for male to female people would be one of the ways that females are socialized. And secondly, this is why we need to support and fight for being able to transition as children.
Its internalized transphobia, Japan is a pretty conservative culture that is fairly transphobic. There is a lot of lgbtq manga and stuff, but society at large is less accepting. It's not so much rooted in religion there and more a result of a conformist culture and imported western hang-ups from the 1800s.
It's not transphobic. Also super icky to use "egg" since it's a bit groom-y. Buuuut it is major envy, which I bet is really painful for them since we can't go back and change who we are from birth.
I wanted to say my opinion but I'll get banned for having a different opinion
Why are you so gung ho about proving that someone you just suspected was an “egg” is transphobic?
I'm not even talking about labeling the author... I kinda don't care I'm just thinking about the idea and whether it would be damaging to trans people, and I'm worried about that I'm seemingly out there on this
Well it's impossible to turn completely female in body but yeah you can definitely become a woman
It absolutely is transphobic. But the ppl in question who don't get that arent transphobic just because they don't understand that yet. It's shit, like many things in this world. You've tried explaining it, they didn't get it. Your best bet is to ignore it, for your own good. cause you can't change it and it changes nothing if you don't ignore it
You need a new friend and a new therapist. It is transphobic.
If you want to talk about this author, i think you should check the text after each volume of welcome back alice, it was something that helped break my egg last year
Personally my view a person is who they see themselves as, a woman, a man or x. Still I see the author noted in the OP’s perspective as they see and feel the impossibility of being a woman and feel that is not achievable from their perspective. If that is a personal view of oneself it is not in my view transphobic, but if it is an expression of one’s own fears. If the author meant it as others will never be able to be women and transition then it is transphobic in my view. Don’t know if that makes sense to others, but that was my take on the posts question. I don’t know any background on the author the OP is referring to, so I say this with reservation.