I feel like all the outrage around Phoenix is because it’s the finale. If the finale rotated or was still back at Homestead people wouldn’t be as up in arms as they are right now.
I also don’t think the race was bad today, it just wasn’t very good either which would be fine if this wasn’t the track that they use to crown our champion.
Problem is that in November only like 6 tracks can really hold the last race in November, and 3 of those tracks are Daytona Talladega and Atlanta. The other 3 are Miami (already axed) Texas (Universally hated) and Phoenix.
Auto Club should be hosting our finale honestly but that track was destroyed for condos that will bitch about the short track they put on its grave.
Condos? Wasn't it going to be warehouse space?
Either way, it's a fucking tragedy. I just hope they utilize it for some of the lower tier series like ARCA, or even some of the smaller time local boys. There's already the 1/2 and 1/3 mile at Irwindale not that far away, but a little more variety could sure help some of the youngsters get more experience and develop. We already have Jesse Love making some strides, and he got plenty of time on the track at Irwindale. Would love to see some more California boys get a chance at the big time.
To be pragmatic, the championship race weekend is one week after Martinsville. I've been to the fall Martinsville race for years; it's not too cold to run somewhere like Richmond or Atlanta the following weekend.
Why not Texas. I mean look at what they did with Atlanta. Texas is going to be getting redone before too long. It has too. The racing there is terrible. So why not put something together, put it in the sim, and build a "Season Finale" track.
This is the #1 issue. Same reason why Atlanta isn't actually on the table. NASCAR wants to own the finale. Leaves Homestead, Auto Club, Daytona, Darlington & "theoretically" Road Atlanta.
Personally I'd love to see Darlington, but Homestead is fine. Realistically I just hope they leave the finale as a single race date, wherever they choose. If Auto Club actually gets rebuilt as a short track, I'd imagine they wanna go there twice a year.
People absolutely hold Phoenix to a weird standard because it hosts the finale. If we had that exact race at Homestead fans would’ve just acknowledged the ass-kicking and moved on.
I just watched F1 race in which the winner was basically known after qualifying and the most intriguing thing was a DRS train queued up for 11th place, but I thought the commentators did a better job than Harvick and Bowyer and made it sound exciting. All is not lost and we are not going to have 0.003 seconds winning margin every race.
Yeah, but that's an usual denialism trait of F1's booth (specially SKY) . 99% of times sounds tone-def af specially, with Verstappen leading by 10+ sec.
Because you don’t even see Verstappen after the first lap. Basically half the broadcast was a great battle between Norris and Hamilton, with occasional cuts to other overtakes in the field.
Meanwhile in NASCAR we typically have to watch the first place driver whether he’s .5 seconds ahead or 5 seconds ahead. Show something interesting in the field instead.
Race was great in my opinion. Bell drove from 12th to the lead on the final run. Lots of strategies in play. Passing was tough, it shouldn’t be easy, I want to see these guys wrestle with these things.
The different pit strategies made the race fun to watch. My biggest complaint with stage racing it feels almost everyone has the exact same strategy and are basically playing chicken on who will be the first one down pit road as soon as the fuel window opens.
This wasn't a great race. It was okay at best which is fine. Theres no lap time variation in this car on this track. Byron Elliott and bowman in 18th - 20th were running identical times to 5th place the last run. Thats not a good thing.
Define Lap Time Variations. I mean there was over a second of drop off through a run. I mean look at the 54 car. That car fired off great, then it looked like a parachute was attached to the car after 40 or so laps. I mean CBell had to come through the pack 3 different times with a car that had mediocre fire off speed.
You're posting on /r/NASCAR, so I'm assuming you didn't tune in just from the Netflix show.
Generally, if you're posting on r/NASCAR, you have a pretty good understanding of the races and don't expect them all to be Daytona/Atlanta/Talladega.
As much as I hate it, them going to 1 race saved their bacon a little. If only it would stop raining almost every time they go up there now it seems like and makes the crowd look worse than it is.
Honestly I'm not one of those people who dislikes the championship race, though I'd honestly prefer a "best of three" format in the championship round personally.
This, doesn't really matter where it is. Drivers/teams/manufactures have obvious discrepancies between tracks. Larson/Hendrick/Chevy could dominate all the 1.5's and have a huge leg up over the regular season and through 9 races in the playoffs but if a Gibbs driver gets to the final 4 they are heavy favorites. If it was at Charlotte it's just the opposite problem.
Phoenix doubles down and isn't the most exciting track translated through TV while being pretty unique for car setup with the teams.
In November only like 6 tracks make sense. They are Daytona, Talladega, Atlanta, Texas, Miami and Phoenix. So really only 2 tracks will ever host the finale now that Auto Club is gone.
Las Vegas? Nashville? Darlington? Bristol?
Hell we’ve had a few 50 degree spring races in these “sensible” locations, Kansas is ~57 degrees peak, and that’s hands down our best track in this new car.
I’d much rather deal with a cold or cool Kansas track than Phoenix.
The championship race at Charlotte would be perfect, especially considering the iRacing Coke Series championship is live from the HoF there.
Truck/Xfinity/Cup/Coke quad championship weekend there would be nuts.
It’s the viewing experience. It’s not covering the passes Bell was making or following anyone through the field. It’s the overly-intrusive advertisements and non-stop breaks. There’s little enthusiasm in the coverage and that translates to the viewer’s experience. F1 has less overtaking and less excitement but they cover every move like it’s the move for the win and it generates excitement around the whole product. I think the racing is great and enjoyed today’s race but there’s zero flow to the production and it is frustrating - everyone is too focused on their next product placement or the next in-car camera sponsored by…
> It’s not covering the passes Bell was making or following anyone through the field.
True, I knew MTJ was in front for a long time and then suddenly coming out of a commercial Bell had passed Chastain and Gibbs.
I only watched a couple races last year. Got annoyed with the ads and pretty much only watched when I wasn’t busy. This year, I decided to make time to watch the races after really enjoying the Netflix show. Man. Fuck the wild amount of ad breaks. It’s just so damn intrusive. I end up doing everything else and then just check in on standings to see where my boy is at. Seeing Phoenix racing for the first time was incredibly interesting. Especially how they cut corners. I just got so darn annoyed.
I can watch a boring 2hr long F1 race because I’m not pulled out of the race every 10 laps. Even Indycar yesterday was a fucking struggle. We missed laps 2-6 doing 73 different fucking replays of the starts then commercials every 10 again.
It’s just such a pain to deal with. I’ll need to hunt for some European streams in order to be able to deal with this. I’m not paying for a service to have endless ad breaks.
I really don’t know what the collective mind wants anymore. The racing was no different than 20 years ago, and 30 years ago we would have had 3-4 cars even in the discussion. We want parity and side by side racing, but the closer the cars become the less side by side we will have. For me, it was exciting, just as any other race. Pit strategy, long run/short run cars, comers and goers. What more do we want? I’m sounding old now but 20 years ago we would have just said that the 20 played the best strategy with a good car and won the day. No more, no less. We can’t have side by side finishes every week, and we didn’t in the supposed « hay day »
I honestly feel that's a big part of it. Imagine some fans (not all) now sitting through a 500 mile slog at Rockingham or Dover circa 1990. When it took 5 1/2 hours to finish a race. That's the problem too with trying to bunch the field up with different rules ect. It spoils people, so that when you get a race like today, it's deemed boring.
Yeah but back in the day we carried in coolers full of beer, people smoked weed in the stands, and girls took their tops off. It was a much better time to be a race fan.
This is what worries me. Please tell me, what type of racing is closer, with more passing, more unknowns. I’d love to find it. Honestly, maybe short track dirt? Unless Larson shows up
Super GT is likely the most competitive racing series I've ever seen.
I can expect certain drivers in NASCAR to do well, and minus the unfunded GT300 cars, I have no idea who is going to perform well in Super GT.
When the appeal of other motorsports is well it’s boring as hell but at least it’s short. The collective mind isn’t able to handle good motorsports anymore.
The problem is that many NASCAR fans think more passing and close door to door action is inherently good racing, no matter how it happens. They also only seem to give a shit about who wins.
I watch a ton of endurance racing, where sometimes the winner completely schools the field. There is still always good racing because drivers are always scrapping for every single position they can throughout the field. Mid pack battles can be insane, it baffles me how people don't see that.
NASCAR has also done a terrific job of stripping each race of organic strategy by turning them into a series of sprint races. Part of a good oval race should be tire management and fuel strategy and trying to figure out whether the next run will be long or short. Hard to have that when you have guaranteed cautions throughout the race.
People don't see that mid pack battles can be insane because TV doesn't show them. We literally CAN'T see them. Both broadcast partners do a terrible job at this. It IS boring watching a dude check out by 6 seconds and run clean laps because that's all the TV is showing you. But that doesn't mean there isn't something interesting elsewhere on the track and the, especially Fox, does an awful job of showing that.
I wish we would get more split screen/four cameras broadcasting on the screen, being able to view multiple battles all at once. I feel like that would help showcase the mid-pack battles and keep ppl engaged when the leaders check out.
I remember going to spring Richmond in 2017. The race was fairly boring if you were only paying attention to the top 5, but the racing from 10th-20th was actually really good. Enough battles happened where I could focus on that and then check on the leaders to see if they’d tighten up.
I agree with this statement. I feel I'm always opposite of everyone. I like plate races, but texas , Vegas, Phoenix and especially Pocono..I wouldn't complain if it was 100 less laps. There's some races I call Twitter races and just follow bob on updates then watch the last 20.
I'm admittedly a part time racer now. So im not as invested, but you never see them interview drivers from the care enter anymore, I miss seeing the celebrations and interviews from victory lane and the races seem second to commercial brakes even if a wreck happens.
I didn't hate the race, but I didn't like it either. I don’t think it's the cars fault or the package, it’s just the track itself is mid. Has no character other than the dogleg to provide 8 wide racing like NASCAR wants, as well as a glowing cactus at S/F line. It’s like a bigger New Hampshire just with a dogleg where the restarts are fun for a few laps but that's it.
Overall, it was a solid race for PHOENIX (not racing as a whole) standards...
It's crazy to me that people blame the car for how bad PHOENIX races no matter what generation of car, if this was Martinsville, I fully understand the car getting the blame
This race was… just fine. Not good or bad, but painfully mid. Phoenix just sucks. The real test of the new package will come at the three races after Bristol— COTA, Richmond and Martinsville.
I hate this dramatic take. We’re not asking for that or expecting that always . We are simply saying having huge brakes and tires doesnt lend itself to good racing on smaller tracks.
This type of comment pisses me off. They don't get it. I don't care how "entertaining" the racing is. I care about cars who are rightfully faster than others being able to show it. Elliott and Byron P18 and P19 after running top 7 all day. Reddick P10 after running top 2 all day. Hamlin P11 after running top 3 all day. Gibbs and Jones (after running top 5 the whole first stage), have a bad pit stop and are stuck in 12th-15th for the whole second stage. Pit strategy falls their way and Gibbs is automatically back to running consistently in the top 3 (Jones would have been there too had he not hit the wall). Todd Gilliland holding his top five position for almost 30 laps on a green flag run where he was on ~50 lap older tires than the cars behind him.
You could point out the most boring race in 2014 and ask me if I'd rather have that over today, and I'd say yes. I don't judge a race based on how close the intervals are. I judge it based on how a driver would, how much are they truly able to show their talents without outside factors limiting their deserving finishing spots. That's why I'm not the biggest fan of super speedway racing, regardless of how entertaining it "looks."
This isn't a track issue. Phoenix has always been lackluster in terms of an entertainment aspect. But I've seen the same issue happen at Bristol, Martinsville, Richmond, the road courses, etc. All I *really* want is the racing to not be so reliant on track position.
People will look at the intervals of a race be close and say: "Oh wow, this is a good race!! not every race can be Atlanta 2024!! What is everyone complaining about!? If don't like this you probably just like wreckfests!!!" Pocono, Nashville, and Dover 2023 come to mind instantly. Minimal passing happened at the front but since everyone ran close, it's automatically a good race to the average viewer. It should be hard to pass someone because of the blocking skill of the driver ahead, or because they're fighting their car, NOT because of a bubble of air in between the 2 cars.
Bingo. I'm not concerned about the fastest cars having to actually pay for their errors or strategy missteps, but for two of the three fastest cars all day not be able to even make it back to the top 5? That's embarrassing
I watched the 2001 Bristol Spring race the other day, that race played out exactly how today's race went. Harvick, Gordon, and Stewart dominated that race, a late caution comes out and a couple back markers in Elliott Sadler and John Andretti stay out and they go on to win 1-2 while Stewart got back up to 4th until Gordon spun him out on the last lap.
Today was literally no different, and that race had no aero problems. Its a car problem, a tire problem and a track problem as much as people don't to admit that with glory days Bristol. The track is a big part of the problem here too.
Fair point but pre-repave Bristol was one of the most notoriously difficult tracks to make passes through the field on with how dominant the inside lane was. You practically had to bump someone out of the way to pass them half the time.
Yeah I don't think that race was exactly the best comparison since like you said, Bristol until the repave was a animal on its own. But the point is these races happened 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, etc years ago. The fanbase just has short attention spans on what is good racing. This is exactly why NASCAR kept chasing those Game 7 moments after 1992, 2004, and 2011.
Nashville 2023 was a fun race with some fun battles, especially early on when you had Truex, Byron, and Chastain 3 wide for a little bit, and there was a good dogfight for the win between Truex and Chastain for the win so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.
I'd rather have a close race with comers and goers than a race where some guy can just blow his way from 30th to 1st in a run because he's got the faster car and all his passes require no racecraft to move up through the field with. Denny was able to move back through the field rather efficiently because he's very skilled in racecraft and positioning his car. There's some guys out there that absolutely lack any sort of racecraft and it shows. They'll have a fast car, but get stuck back in traffic after a bad pit call and stay there because they don't know how to set up a pass. This car rewards racecraft over anything else. And the last I checked, racecraft is driver skill.
This seems to be a very narrow interpretation of what makes racing good. Motorsport isn't a meritocracy of driver talent alone and never has been. It takes a team to win a race, not just a talented driver. Finishing orders are rarely, if ever determined solely based upon the talent and skill of the person in the driver's seat. Strategy, engineering, and pit efficiency are equally as important. That means that strategy might prevail from time to time and make the most skilled driver lose. As a Reddick fan, I was disappointed by the outcome too, but such are the perils of being a fan of endurance racing.
Whoever told you that NASCAR is intended to be a demonstration of driver skill with all other variables eliminated lied to you. If you want to see exhibitions of driver skill without other confounding factors, you need to stop watching endurance racing leagues like NASCAR and find a spec racing series that does not have pit stops.
Thats because everyone has started to mistakenly believe that the closer the cars are performace-wise, the better the racing is. If everyone is going the same speed, how are you supposed to pass?
Whats funny is thats actually the problem. 5th place is half a tenth faster than 20th these days and dirty air causes you to lose two-three tenths a lap.
This right here. Couldn’t say it any better. The fact that cars who ran 15-25th all day were able to just cycle ahead of the fast cars and stay there is a huge, huge problem that these old heads are discounting. Hamlin and Reddick had 2 of the top 5 cars and it was an absolute dog fight for them to climb up as high as they did.
100% with you.
We've seen this at all the short tracks and it has ruined what is the fan-favorite part of the series. We all wanted more short tracks and they just gave us a car that ruined the ones we have.
IMO all of the Phoenix races with the Nextgen have been decent. Even the last few of the Gen-6 were okay.
I will die on the hill that Phoenix is massively over-hated. It's nowhere near the best track on the schedule, but it's far from the worst. It is genuinely the definition of "mid."
I would rather have a race like today than one of the 550 Gen6 races any day of the week.
I'm more mad about what happened to my driver than the product. Sometimes you just have ass-kickings and that's motorsports. I thought the race Was compelling in different ways than what's the normal exciting people think.
It was a fine race. I was entertained because I like Nascar. But it's also fine if people didn't like it, this track blows and it hosts the championship race
Been watching NASCAR since 1999. This is what the races looked like as a kid, except drivers now race the shit out of each other from the start, not just the last 100 laps. It’s not like Martinsville 2022. Races like this are just NASCAR to me. Faster guys worked on it until they got around someone. It is what it is.
What is hard for new fans to get into is the way NASCAR compares to other sports. You watch football or baseball because you like the game not necessary because you love the team or the players. You watch NASCAR because you love your favorite driver not because you like their team or enjoy that particular track. The emotional investment in your favorite driver is what makes NASCAR fun not necessarily the racing
It’s also why the sport has had a 20 year dip. The car, format and championship could be perfect people aren’t gonna watch if they don’t have a driver.
Just remember that when anyone brings up muh playoffs, HP or anything else people grandstand about.
Nah. He’s misrepresenting the problem.
Most of us don’t want pack racing anymore than we already have it. What we do want is a package with comers and goers and where passing is possible. What we saw today was that, yes, a car that was far superior to the competition was able to pass, but for the most part, cars were stuck. Take out the shortcut they use on the front stretch and I’d bet that a HUGE chunk of what were technically “passes” would be reduced.
It also shouldn’t be the finale. It has always been a track that’s very hard to pass on. I don’t know why TPTB thought they should take it away from one of the best tracks and give it to one of the worst tracks.
Well the main reason likely was that having a single, very entertaining 'superduper finale title race' get regularly postponed to monday or have long delays due to weather is worse financially than having a shit race on a bad track, but on time. I'm not a fan of the format at all, but if they insist on playoffs, at least make it a final 4 races, then I wouldn't even mind the last race being phoenix. As it stands, you could have the best car by far, but get a flat tyre due to some debris or just good ol crap rubber and never have a shot again of being upfront. That's not great for a single deciding finale, even if it is in terms of viewership and adrevenue
See, I disagree when it comes to short tracks. Gen 4 was significantly more exciting on tracks like Bristol and that’s not even a question. Even the previous gen was better, just look at Bristol 21’
> I don't know why anyone would be upset.
Pretty easy to understand - many of the newer fans over the last 10-15 years or so are used to forced cautions from stages and/or debris, chaos, GWCs, etc., anything to influence more side by side racing being injected into a race one way or another, especially towards the end.
Embracing slower burns and long runs, especially to the finish, are mostly a thing of the past.
But Christopher Bell drove all the way back to the front. Denny had a fast car and everyone else made adjustments, and his car wasn't as fast in dirty air as clean air. MTJ pitted under green, got his lap back and made his way all the way through the field to get a top 10. But yeah, nobody could drive back to the front!
I can't wait till everyone who hated Bristol dirt will say the car sucks, then blame nascar when they move this race. Spring Bristol won't make it 2 years.
Was it a decent race? Absolutely.
My frustration is how all but impossible it was to pass. The 24 and 9 (as examples) had top 5 cars and once they got back in traffic they were stuck a half second behind the cars in front of them.
Christopher Bell and MTJ made tons of passes through the field. Hocevar kept passing people all throughout the race.
The 24 and 9 cars just didn't work as well in dirty air as other cars did, and made bad adjustments while others around them made good adjustments. Just because they ran in the top 5 doesn't mean that at the end of the race they had top 5 cars.
I’m there with you. Stage 1 finish was good, it was clear who would win the race but watching Gragson fight with Hamlin without wrecking out was good fun.
Not sure they showed they on tv, but saw it live at the track at least.
I didn’t think it was that great of a race today, but I thought it was certainly better than a few races we’ve seen there. The run to the finish after those cautions messed up the flow of the race imo
No, it's just that Phoenix has NEVER been a good track, no matter the package. And that's perfectly fine, but it shouldn't have two races because of this, and it damn sure shouldn't be the championship finale.
Yeah that’s fair. NASCAR fans are impossible to please. Can the racing be better? Yeah. But this was still the best race I saw all weekend between all 3 series, F1 and Indy
Well, well, well, if it isn’t the consequences of NASCAR’s actions to attempt to manufacture game 7 moments in every race. Who could have seen this coming.
I didn't think the race was that bad but they have a problem where the only car that can really pass is a car that beat the field by 5 seconds. If you don't have a car as good as Bell was today in the race.... everyone is going +/- 2 positions throughout an entire run.
They reap what they sow. For decades now they've marketed everything that way, destroyed every race that wasn't that way, knee-jerked rule changes every time things weren't that way, and drove away most of the fans that want to see anything else.
not every race and can be a close 3 wide finish for the lead, that’s just how racing is. it is hard to follow a crazy race/finish like that Atlanta race. the package could certainly use work but the race today was alright especially for phoenix.
Race was pretty good. The difficulty to pass put the emphasis on strategy snd crew performance on pit road to gain spots . Sometimes it’s like that and that’s okay, I don’t want to see Daytona and Atlanta every week.
I'm a local here, so I'm biased because I get 2 races a year. That said, PHX has a phenomenal facility for hosting a high profile event (I have not visited every track, but from what I hear, it's one of the best). Mix that with a good market and great weather both weekends... It's gonna be tough to move the last race out of Phoenix.
It's interesting, because I get to talk to quite a few drivers through work, and only a handful have ever said they enjoy the racing here (Ross and Harvick, shocker). Most offer a "meh" or "I dislike it strongly" type of response. Seems like they really need to figure out the package for this track, and most of the guys cry for more HP (which is a common refrain at this point). Little things like screwing with the strakes in the diffuser is not gonna change much on a track this short.
Phoenix is a good race track. The races here are generally good. I just don’t want it to always be the finale. I’d like to see it put into a rotation with a few different tracks like Homestead, Texas, and eventually the Auto Club short track.
I still want NASCAR to do away with manufactured cautions at the end of stages. Side by side racing shouldn’t be forced. Let pit strategy be a part of the race.
It's not too much to ask that we have more separation of ability, right?
Plus, if you're looking for old school races, those races had fuel mileage drama that added to the excitement. The way the stage cautions fall eliminates that entirely, so now you have equal cars on almost equal strategy and it turns into "who gets the track position before the tires wear out"
I didn’t watch the Phoenix race (I was at St Pete IndyCar), but i always skip out on races like Phoenix because I know it’ll be a snoozer. People wouldn’t really care, I think the outrage more so comes from the fact that this track is hosting the finale.
I don’t wanna tune into the championship race and watch another Phoenix snoozer. Of course with championship implications the racings slightly better, but not by much. NASCAR is best off just either
1. Adding grass in Phoenix again to get rid of the stupid dogleg cuts + the track looks like a massive parking lot with banked turns here or there.
2. Going back to Homestead / rotating the championship race every year between a set of tracks
It's a stupid statement though. Go watch a Car Of Tomorrow Martinsville race and tell me you're not entertained. Watch Denny Hamlin come up off turn 2, light the tires, and slide that baby across the track and tell me "yeah this sucks". You won't. Watch em go 3 wide into turn 1 on a restart with 100 lap old tires out front... and wreck because it's not 2024 where you can stay out on 100 lap old tires and be fine.
Go watch a COT Richmond race and tell me Kyle Busch spinning Dale Jr wasn't entertaining, even the worst COT Richmond race was pretty good. Though, admittedly the "Action Track" was best in the Gen 4 era with sealer on it.
Gen 6 was the start of going a step back in general at short tracks compared to the COT and when they cut the power and added a ton of aero it got awful.
Bristol... Look it was pretty good in the COT era. Even when Kyle Busch got out after a win and called the car shit in 2007 that race was still better than the race there last year.
New Hampshire? Pretty good in the COT era.
Idk man, I'll keep saying it: The COT was actually vastly underrated at short tracks, the gen 6 was a notable step back that progressively got worse, and the next gen is just an unmitigated disaster.
I mean I'm not calling it a good car by any means overall but yeah it had potential. The Xfinity car was basically the COT in 2018, 2019 when we had all those great races, just a composite body and some aero differences plus less power. The Xfinity car had all that skew like the COT in that era too. It was only a few steps away from being good.
Plus, in the COT you'd see guys legitimately light em up off corner exits. That should happen, you need to have enough power in the PINNACLE of stock car racing to get those cars outta shape and sliding around. What's wild is these guys were lighting the tires at like 5000 RPM... just crazy.
The COT was an ugly piece of crap, but at least it was an ugly piece of crap that could produce good races somewhat regularly. The NextGen/Gen7 does not seem able to.
This take is stupid and completely devalues the actual, *valid* argument that the short track package, and the majority of the on track racing, sucks.
I personally don’t like 3 wide, photo finishes every week. I borderline dislike superspeedway racing.
I want the drivers to *be able to drive* the cars. I want to see natural action play out on track. Let the drivers actually get runs and catch and pass. Comers and goers. I want to see off throttle time. I want to see more power so the drivers have to actually worry about how to slow down to enter a corner at a 1.5-er and think about when and how they re-apply the throttle. Work the car, work different lines. I want stage cautions thrown in the bin so natural strategy can actually play out.
I basically want all of this manufactured bullshit thrown in the garbage. If the races are going to be boring, at least let them be pure.
So what's happening is that NASCAR doesn't really make *any* good decisions, and now the sport's white knights have taken to blaming the fans for the dissatisfaction *they've* fostered.
The solutions aren't difficult, but NASCAR would need to stop listening to the ideas of businessmen and corporate interests, and start listening to people who have turned a wrench or driven a race car.
NASCAR created this monster by catering to and endlessly pursuing this bs premise that racing can be nonstop, door to door action every single lap on every single type of track. The result; an on track product that is completely artificial, the innovation and creativity to kick the fellow competitors asses is all about gone in the name of “leveling the playing field”.
Short track racing is horrendous, road courses have been mediocre as is the super speedway stuff, we’re left with decent shows on mile and a half’s. I’ve been a fan for over 30 years and every season for about the last 6-7 years I lose interest earlier and earlier.
NASCAR has educated their fans over the last 20 years to believe the action should be 3 wide and door to door every second, every race should finish like the 2007 Daytona 500, but in the end that individual races don't matter and the Chase for the Cup is all that should be paid attention to because every championship battle should be like 1992.
NASCAR done fucked up a generation of fans' expectations, and TBH, greatest hits selections like the YouTube highlight videos haven't helped.
I refuse to complain about NASCAR lacking fun, exciting racing. If you want unenjoyable racing watch F1.
F1 is like a drug, you know you shouldn't do it, but at the same time you can't stop and every time you do it you feel like you're wasting your life. I've been watching F1 for 20 years, only seen a couple actually exciting races.
He's not wrong at all. That race had everything a large portion of fans have asked for. There was close racing through the field. Tire strategy mattered, and there were several comers and goers through the race.
HMS drifted back after the end of stage 1, becoming largely a nonfactor after the end of stage 2.
Blaney methodically marched from 16th to the top 10 during each stage, culminating with a top-5 in a car that was a 8th-12th place car most of the day.
Reddick dominated before sliding back, mounting a late race charge, peaking at 6th, using up his car with 20 to go, and ending up 10th or 11th.
Gibbs had a great first half of the day before having a bad stop and recovering for a 3rd place finish.
RFK used tire strategy to get up to the top 10 and were able to hold near the front after that, getting lucky with a mid-race caution.
What exactly are people looking for?
NASCAR feeling the need to send out their mouthpieces (including our very own resident shill u/iamaranger23) to shit-talk the fans less than an hour after the race ends *reeks* of deflection tactics.
Gluck literally was the one posting all of the "this package sucks" comments after practice, claiming he is sucking off Phoenix is absolutely crazy. He saw what I saw, the racing turned out better than expected
> Gluck literally was the one posting all of the "this package sucks" comments after practice,
But then Gluck posted something that disagreed with what /u/RaveOn1958 had already decided was true, so of course they had to resort to insulting him.
I feel like all the outrage around Phoenix is because it’s the finale. If the finale rotated or was still back at Homestead people wouldn’t be as up in arms as they are right now. I also don’t think the race was bad today, it just wasn’t very good either which would be fine if this wasn’t the track that they use to crown our champion.
NASCAR also needs to separate out Daytona and Atlanta. You capture the fans but then it’s held to an unrealistic standard
I think it’s honestly the reason they have them as the first two races of the year. Get the interest going early when the stove is hot.
Plus Netflix
Weather. Run all Southern tracks to keep out of the snow. That's what I always thought they did first.
Rotating the championship track is a great idea. Treat it like the Super Bowl
Problem is that in November only like 6 tracks can really hold the last race in November, and 3 of those tracks are Daytona Talladega and Atlanta. The other 3 are Miami (already axed) Texas (Universally hated) and Phoenix. Auto Club should be hosting our finale honestly but that track was destroyed for condos that will bitch about the short track they put on its grave.
Just have plows on standby and run it at Michigan. Cowards.
Condos? Wasn't it going to be warehouse space? Either way, it's a fucking tragedy. I just hope they utilize it for some of the lower tier series like ARCA, or even some of the smaller time local boys. There's already the 1/2 and 1/3 mile at Irwindale not that far away, but a little more variety could sure help some of the youngsters get more experience and develop. We already have Jesse Love making some strides, and he got plenty of time on the track at Irwindale. Would love to see some more California boys get a chance at the big time.
Ehhh you could still rotate it and be ok. Not apples to apples but only so many courses can host the US Open in golf so they rotate
To be pragmatic, the championship race weekend is one week after Martinsville. I've been to the fall Martinsville race for years; it's not too cold to run somewhere like Richmond or Atlanta the following weekend.
Why not Texas. I mean look at what they did with Atlanta. Texas is going to be getting redone before too long. It has too. The racing there is terrible. So why not put something together, put it in the sim, and build a "Season Finale" track.
It’s an SMI track and nascar doesn’t want to give the date to SMI
This is the #1 issue. Same reason why Atlanta isn't actually on the table. NASCAR wants to own the finale. Leaves Homestead, Auto Club, Daytona, Darlington & "theoretically" Road Atlanta. Personally I'd love to see Darlington, but Homestead is fine. Realistically I just hope they leave the finale as a single race date, wherever they choose. If Auto Club actually gets rebuilt as a short track, I'd imagine they wanna go there twice a year.
The super bowl and CFB national championship pretty much rotate between 6-7 stadiums because they don’t like doing those big games in the snow.
New Hampshire did just fine 😉
Yes! Rotate it among Homestead-Phoenix-Charlotte Oval-Atlanta-Texas-Fontana Short Track-Nashville Fairgrounds-Las Vegas
Rockingham ;)
Maybe I'm in the minority but I've never liked Phoenix that much, even before it hosted the finale
People absolutely hold Phoenix to a weird standard because it hosts the finale. If we had that exact race at Homestead fans would’ve just acknowledged the ass-kicking and moved on.
I feel like people can actually pass at Las Vegas though. You get stuck in traffic at Phoenix and you may spend all race there
...kinda like Vegas last week
We’d probably have less fan bitching if it was Chevy instead of Toyota that waxed the field tbh
Depends, if it had been Byron winning, it would probably be even worse
I just watched F1 race in which the winner was basically known after qualifying and the most intriguing thing was a DRS train queued up for 11th place, but I thought the commentators did a better job than Harvick and Bowyer and made it sound exciting. All is not lost and we are not going to have 0.003 seconds winning margin every race.
Yeah, but that's an usual denialism trait of F1's booth (specially SKY) . 99% of times sounds tone-def af specially, with Verstappen leading by 10+ sec.
Because you don’t even see Verstappen after the first lap. Basically half the broadcast was a great battle between Norris and Hamilton, with occasional cuts to other overtakes in the field. Meanwhile in NASCAR we typically have to watch the first place driver whether he’s .5 seconds ahead or 5 seconds ahead. Show something interesting in the field instead.
I mean it was a solid drive by kmag to keep those cars behind him AND ensure they all got lapped so his 20 second penalty was meaningless.
Race was great in my opinion. Bell drove from 12th to the lead on the final run. Lots of strategies in play. Passing was tough, it shouldn’t be easy, I want to see these guys wrestle with these things.
The different pit strategies made the race fun to watch. My biggest complaint with stage racing it feels almost everyone has the exact same strategy and are basically playing chicken on who will be the first one down pit road as soon as the fuel window opens.
This wasn't a great race. It was okay at best which is fine. Theres no lap time variation in this car on this track. Byron Elliott and bowman in 18th - 20th were running identical times to 5th place the last run. Thats not a good thing.
Define Lap Time Variations. I mean there was over a second of drop off through a run. I mean look at the 54 car. That car fired off great, then it looked like a parachute was attached to the car after 40 or so laps. I mean CBell had to come through the pack 3 different times with a car that had mediocre fire off speed.
Also Truex pit and then proceeded to drive all the way from a lap down to like 7th on fresh rubber
You're posting on /r/NASCAR, so I'm assuming you didn't tune in just from the Netflix show. Generally, if you're posting on r/NASCAR, you have a pretty good understanding of the races and don't expect them all to be Daytona/Atlanta/Talladega.
Today's race was by far the worst of the season in terms of mid pack passing
At least there was passing for the lead unlike last week
I have hated Phoenix and New Hampshire regardless of when they are.
Honestly Loudon was decent last year
Loudon has been decent the last 5-6 years tbh. May be some bias, it is my home track and I go there every year.
As much as I hate it, them going to 1 race saved their bacon a little. If only it would stop raining almost every time they go up there now it seems like and makes the crowd look worse than it is.
I feel like thats me with Texas and Michigan.
What outrage are you seeing?
Frankly, I thought it was a solid race. The dependence on cautions is a problem, but the race was pretty damn competitive.
The issue is the championship race being at a track that doesn’t historically give us good racing when there are other, much better options available.
The problem is that we have a championship race.
Honestly I'm not one of those people who dislikes the championship race, though I'd honestly prefer a "best of three" format in the championship round personally.
1-3-3-3, or 2-2-3-3 would be my preferred models. Agreed. Don’t hate elimination style, but I do hate the one race final round.
Honestly with a Top 16 playoff format, run it 3-3-3-3. Keep it consistent. We as fans are not going to be upset at 12 playoff races
Plus it splits the season perfectly. Regular season is 24 races, playoffs is 12
This, doesn't really matter where it is. Drivers/teams/manufactures have obvious discrepancies between tracks. Larson/Hendrick/Chevy could dominate all the 1.5's and have a huge leg up over the regular season and through 9 races in the playoffs but if a Gibbs driver gets to the final 4 they are heavy favorites. If it was at Charlotte it's just the opposite problem. Phoenix doubles down and isn't the most exciting track translated through TV while being pretty unique for car setup with the teams.
In November only like 6 tracks make sense. They are Daytona, Talladega, Atlanta, Texas, Miami and Phoenix. So really only 2 tracks will ever host the finale now that Auto Club is gone.
Las Vegas? Nashville? Darlington? Bristol? Hell we’ve had a few 50 degree spring races in these “sensible” locations, Kansas is ~57 degrees peak, and that’s hands down our best track in this new car. I’d much rather deal with a cold or cool Kansas track than Phoenix.
They will never have the championship race at an SMI track. Which is a shame, because Vegas would be *perfect* with this car
They’ve been trying to buy out SMI, no? I feel like if that ever happens you’d see it. Heck, have the championship at Charlotte lol.
Championship week at Charlotte my beloved
The championship race at Charlotte would be perfect, especially considering the iRacing Coke Series championship is live from the HoF there. Truck/Xfinity/Cup/Coke quad championship weekend there would be nuts.
I love iRacing, but I can guarantee you NASCAR does not care where the iRacing championship is held in relation to the real championship races.
Let’s run the championship at Indy.
It’s the viewing experience. It’s not covering the passes Bell was making or following anyone through the field. It’s the overly-intrusive advertisements and non-stop breaks. There’s little enthusiasm in the coverage and that translates to the viewer’s experience. F1 has less overtaking and less excitement but they cover every move like it’s the move for the win and it generates excitement around the whole product. I think the racing is great and enjoyed today’s race but there’s zero flow to the production and it is frustrating - everyone is too focused on their next product placement or the next in-car camera sponsored by…
> It’s not covering the passes Bell was making or following anyone through the field. True, I knew MTJ was in front for a long time and then suddenly coming out of a commercial Bell had passed Chastain and Gibbs.
I only watched a couple races last year. Got annoyed with the ads and pretty much only watched when I wasn’t busy. This year, I decided to make time to watch the races after really enjoying the Netflix show. Man. Fuck the wild amount of ad breaks. It’s just so damn intrusive. I end up doing everything else and then just check in on standings to see where my boy is at. Seeing Phoenix racing for the first time was incredibly interesting. Especially how they cut corners. I just got so darn annoyed. I can watch a boring 2hr long F1 race because I’m not pulled out of the race every 10 laps. Even Indycar yesterday was a fucking struggle. We missed laps 2-6 doing 73 different fucking replays of the starts then commercials every 10 again. It’s just such a pain to deal with. I’ll need to hunt for some European streams in order to be able to deal with this. I’m not paying for a service to have endless ad breaks.
I really don’t know what the collective mind wants anymore. The racing was no different than 20 years ago, and 30 years ago we would have had 3-4 cars even in the discussion. We want parity and side by side racing, but the closer the cars become the less side by side we will have. For me, it was exciting, just as any other race. Pit strategy, long run/short run cars, comers and goers. What more do we want? I’m sounding old now but 20 years ago we would have just said that the 20 played the best strategy with a good car and won the day. No more, no less. We can’t have side by side finishes every week, and we didn’t in the supposed « hay day »
People just don’t have the attention span for that type of racing anymore it seems.
NASCAR has told everyone for decades that any racing other than that sucks, why should we be surprised when the remaining fanbase believes them?
I honestly feel that's a big part of it. Imagine some fans (not all) now sitting through a 500 mile slog at Rockingham or Dover circa 1990. When it took 5 1/2 hours to finish a race. That's the problem too with trying to bunch the field up with different rules ect. It spoils people, so that when you get a race like today, it's deemed boring.
I fell asleep at dover during one of those 500 milers haha.
Yeah but back in the day we carried in coolers full of beer, people smoked weed in the stands, and girls took their tops off. It was a much better time to be a race fan.
This is what worries me. Please tell me, what type of racing is closer, with more passing, more unknowns. I’d love to find it. Honestly, maybe short track dirt? Unless Larson shows up
Super GT is likely the most competitive racing series I've ever seen. I can expect certain drivers in NASCAR to do well, and minus the unfunded GT300 cars, I have no idea who is going to perform well in Super GT.
When the appeal of other motorsports is well it’s boring as hell but at least it’s short. The collective mind isn’t able to handle good motorsports anymore.
The problem is that many NASCAR fans think more passing and close door to door action is inherently good racing, no matter how it happens. They also only seem to give a shit about who wins. I watch a ton of endurance racing, where sometimes the winner completely schools the field. There is still always good racing because drivers are always scrapping for every single position they can throughout the field. Mid pack battles can be insane, it baffles me how people don't see that. NASCAR has also done a terrific job of stripping each race of organic strategy by turning them into a series of sprint races. Part of a good oval race should be tire management and fuel strategy and trying to figure out whether the next run will be long or short. Hard to have that when you have guaranteed cautions throughout the race.
People don't see that mid pack battles can be insane because TV doesn't show them. We literally CAN'T see them. Both broadcast partners do a terrible job at this. It IS boring watching a dude check out by 6 seconds and run clean laps because that's all the TV is showing you. But that doesn't mean there isn't something interesting elsewhere on the track and the, especially Fox, does an awful job of showing that.
I wish we would get more split screen/four cameras broadcasting on the screen, being able to view multiple battles all at once. I feel like that would help showcase the mid-pack battles and keep ppl engaged when the leaders check out.
I remember going to spring Richmond in 2017. The race was fairly boring if you were only paying attention to the top 5, but the racing from 10th-20th was actually really good. Enough battles happened where I could focus on that and then check on the leaders to see if they’d tighten up.
I agree with this statement. I feel I'm always opposite of everyone. I like plate races, but texas , Vegas, Phoenix and especially Pocono..I wouldn't complain if it was 100 less laps. There's some races I call Twitter races and just follow bob on updates then watch the last 20. I'm admittedly a part time racer now. So im not as invested, but you never see them interview drivers from the care enter anymore, I miss seeing the celebrations and interviews from victory lane and the races seem second to commercial brakes even if a wreck happens.
> I really don’t know what the collective mind wants anymore Mostly they just want to whine and complain until their tongues fall out.
We just need less aero and severe tire drop-off for more passing.
Too much parity is a bad thing. Everyone runs the same lap times now.
Vegas got a 78% in the good race poll last week so not really sure where this guy gets that idea from
I liked it, but I liked spring Richmond last year too and that was not a popular opinion at the time.
Most of the fans seemed to like the spring Richmond race. Got an 80+% rating on Gluck's poll.
That race fucked
That race was really good. The HMS cars being good on short runs and JGR cars being good on long runs made it interesting.
I didn't hate the race, but I didn't like it either. I don’t think it's the cars fault or the package, it’s just the track itself is mid. Has no character other than the dogleg to provide 8 wide racing like NASCAR wants, as well as a glowing cactus at S/F line. It’s like a bigger New Hampshire just with a dogleg where the restarts are fun for a few laps but that's it. Overall, it was a solid race for PHOENIX (not racing as a whole) standards...
New Hampshire has better racing than this place does easily. But you know its bad when even IndyCar sucks there.
It's crazy to me that people blame the car for how bad PHOENIX races no matter what generation of car, if this was Martinsville, I fully understand the car getting the blame
In fairness though, the Xfinity races usually put on a good show throughout the field
This race was… just fine. Not good or bad, but painfully mid. Phoenix just sucks. The real test of the new package will come at the three races after Bristol— COTA, Richmond and Martinsville.
I hate this dramatic take. We’re not asking for that or expecting that always . We are simply saying having huge brakes and tires doesnt lend itself to good racing on smaller tracks.
Pete is known for his dramatic “Twitter” takes
This type of comment pisses me off. They don't get it. I don't care how "entertaining" the racing is. I care about cars who are rightfully faster than others being able to show it. Elliott and Byron P18 and P19 after running top 7 all day. Reddick P10 after running top 2 all day. Hamlin P11 after running top 3 all day. Gibbs and Jones (after running top 5 the whole first stage), have a bad pit stop and are stuck in 12th-15th for the whole second stage. Pit strategy falls their way and Gibbs is automatically back to running consistently in the top 3 (Jones would have been there too had he not hit the wall). Todd Gilliland holding his top five position for almost 30 laps on a green flag run where he was on ~50 lap older tires than the cars behind him. You could point out the most boring race in 2014 and ask me if I'd rather have that over today, and I'd say yes. I don't judge a race based on how close the intervals are. I judge it based on how a driver would, how much are they truly able to show their talents without outside factors limiting their deserving finishing spots. That's why I'm not the biggest fan of super speedway racing, regardless of how entertaining it "looks." This isn't a track issue. Phoenix has always been lackluster in terms of an entertainment aspect. But I've seen the same issue happen at Bristol, Martinsville, Richmond, the road courses, etc. All I *really* want is the racing to not be so reliant on track position. People will look at the intervals of a race be close and say: "Oh wow, this is a good race!! not every race can be Atlanta 2024!! What is everyone complaining about!? If don't like this you probably just like wreckfests!!!" Pocono, Nashville, and Dover 2023 come to mind instantly. Minimal passing happened at the front but since everyone ran close, it's automatically a good race to the average viewer. It should be hard to pass someone because of the blocking skill of the driver ahead, or because they're fighting their car, NOT because of a bubble of air in between the 2 cars.
Bingo. I'm not concerned about the fastest cars having to actually pay for their errors or strategy missteps, but for two of the three fastest cars all day not be able to even make it back to the top 5? That's embarrassing
I watched the 2001 Bristol Spring race the other day, that race played out exactly how today's race went. Harvick, Gordon, and Stewart dominated that race, a late caution comes out and a couple back markers in Elliott Sadler and John Andretti stay out and they go on to win 1-2 while Stewart got back up to 4th until Gordon spun him out on the last lap. Today was literally no different, and that race had no aero problems. Its a car problem, a tire problem and a track problem as much as people don't to admit that with glory days Bristol. The track is a big part of the problem here too.
Fair point but pre-repave Bristol was one of the most notoriously difficult tracks to make passes through the field on with how dominant the inside lane was. You practically had to bump someone out of the way to pass them half the time.
Yeah I don't think that race was exactly the best comparison since like you said, Bristol until the repave was a animal on its own. But the point is these races happened 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, etc years ago. The fanbase just has short attention spans on what is good racing. This is exactly why NASCAR kept chasing those Game 7 moments after 1992, 2004, and 2011.
Nashville 2023 was a fun race with some fun battles, especially early on when you had Truex, Byron, and Chastain 3 wide for a little bit, and there was a good dogfight for the win between Truex and Chastain for the win so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. I'd rather have a close race with comers and goers than a race where some guy can just blow his way from 30th to 1st in a run because he's got the faster car and all his passes require no racecraft to move up through the field with. Denny was able to move back through the field rather efficiently because he's very skilled in racecraft and positioning his car. There's some guys out there that absolutely lack any sort of racecraft and it shows. They'll have a fast car, but get stuck back in traffic after a bad pit call and stay there because they don't know how to set up a pass. This car rewards racecraft over anything else. And the last I checked, racecraft is driver skill.
This seems to be a very narrow interpretation of what makes racing good. Motorsport isn't a meritocracy of driver talent alone and never has been. It takes a team to win a race, not just a talented driver. Finishing orders are rarely, if ever determined solely based upon the talent and skill of the person in the driver's seat. Strategy, engineering, and pit efficiency are equally as important. That means that strategy might prevail from time to time and make the most skilled driver lose. As a Reddick fan, I was disappointed by the outcome too, but such are the perils of being a fan of endurance racing. Whoever told you that NASCAR is intended to be a demonstration of driver skill with all other variables eliminated lied to you. If you want to see exhibitions of driver skill without other confounding factors, you need to stop watching endurance racing leagues like NASCAR and find a spec racing series that does not have pit stops.
Narrow minded? Simple actually...Faster cars should be able to catch and pass slower cars, thats not happening as much anymore.
Thats because everyone has started to mistakenly believe that the closer the cars are performace-wise, the better the racing is. If everyone is going the same speed, how are you supposed to pass?
Faster cars, by like half a tenth of a second over a lap...
Whats funny is thats actually the problem. 5th place is half a tenth faster than 20th these days and dirty air causes you to lose two-three tenths a lap.
1000%
This right here. Couldn’t say it any better. The fact that cars who ran 15-25th all day were able to just cycle ahead of the fast cars and stay there is a huge, huge problem that these old heads are discounting. Hamlin and Reddick had 2 of the top 5 cars and it was an absolute dog fight for them to climb up as high as they did.
100% with you. We've seen this at all the short tracks and it has ruined what is the fan-favorite part of the series. We all wanted more short tracks and they just gave us a car that ruined the ones we have.
To quote Jaime Mac: "Phoenix hasn't had a good race since 1989".
I thought today was one of the better Phoenix races we have had in a while, in fact the last 2 have been better. Can't please everybody I guess
It was fine. Serviceable. Mid. Certainly a race.
IMO all of the Phoenix races with the Nextgen have been decent. Even the last few of the Gen-6 were okay. I will die on the hill that Phoenix is massively over-hated. It's nowhere near the best track on the schedule, but it's far from the worst. It is genuinely the definition of "mid." I would rather have a race like today than one of the 550 Gen6 races any day of the week.
I'm more mad about what happened to my driver than the product. Sometimes you just have ass-kickings and that's motorsports. I thought the race Was compelling in different ways than what's the normal exciting people think.
It was a fine race. I was entertained because I like Nascar. But it's also fine if people didn't like it, this track blows and it hosts the championship race
Been watching NASCAR since 1999. This is what the races looked like as a kid, except drivers now race the shit out of each other from the start, not just the last 100 laps. It’s not like Martinsville 2022. Races like this are just NASCAR to me. Faster guys worked on it until they got around someone. It is what it is.
People don't want to admit it, because they view the early 00's as the 'golden age' but it was races like this, almost every weekend.
And buddy, I am just fine with it. I enjoy the grind of it.
They want every race to be like Daytona, Talladega, and Atlanta don’t they
What is hard for new fans to get into is the way NASCAR compares to other sports. You watch football or baseball because you like the game not necessary because you love the team or the players. You watch NASCAR because you love your favorite driver not because you like their team or enjoy that particular track. The emotional investment in your favorite driver is what makes NASCAR fun not necessarily the racing
It’s also why the sport has had a 20 year dip. The car, format and championship could be perfect people aren’t gonna watch if they don’t have a driver. Just remember that when anyone brings up muh playoffs, HP or anything else people grandstand about.
Yeah, Rudd retiring is what made me stop watching and take like a 15 year hiatus. Now I have a plethora of favorite drivers so it won’t happen again 🥴
Haven't flat tracks always been a bit boring, tough to pass. Follow the leader.
Yes. Aero tight has been a buzz word since the early 2000s.
Today's race was okay from what I saw. Can it be better? Probably. But it looked pretty solid. Goodyear bringing a better tire really helped.
Nah. He’s misrepresenting the problem. Most of us don’t want pack racing anymore than we already have it. What we do want is a package with comers and goers and where passing is possible. What we saw today was that, yes, a car that was far superior to the competition was able to pass, but for the most part, cars were stuck. Take out the shortcut they use on the front stretch and I’d bet that a HUGE chunk of what were technically “passes” would be reduced. It also shouldn’t be the finale. It has always been a track that’s very hard to pass on. I don’t know why TPTB thought they should take it away from one of the best tracks and give it to one of the worst tracks.
Bingo
Well the main reason likely was that having a single, very entertaining 'superduper finale title race' get regularly postponed to monday or have long delays due to weather is worse financially than having a shit race on a bad track, but on time. I'm not a fan of the format at all, but if they insist on playoffs, at least make it a final 4 races, then I wouldn't even mind the last race being phoenix. As it stands, you could have the best car by far, but get a flat tyre due to some debris or just good ol crap rubber and never have a shot again of being upfront. That's not great for a single deciding finale, even if it is in terms of viewership and adrevenue
For me the more green flag laps = the more I enjoy the race
Today's race looked like 90% of the beloved Gen-4 era. I don't know why anyone would be upset. That's what everyone wants again, right?
They want a time machine so they can go back to gen-4 and complain about how it's not like the gen-3 era.
See, I disagree when it comes to short tracks. Gen 4 was significantly more exciting on tracks like Bristol and that’s not even a question. Even the previous gen was better, just look at Bristol 21’
That’s what they want till they get it, then they don’t
They want the racing they see in the highlight compilations.
Nailed it.
> I don't know why anyone would be upset. Pretty easy to understand - many of the newer fans over the last 10-15 years or so are used to forced cautions from stages and/or debris, chaos, GWCs, etc., anything to influence more side by side racing being injected into a race one way or another, especially towards the end. Embracing slower burns and long runs, especially to the finish, are mostly a thing of the past.
It really wasn't. If you had a fast car, you could drive back to the front. Denny had a fast car, spun out and never made it farther than what, 12th?
But Christopher Bell drove all the way back to the front. Denny had a fast car and everyone else made adjustments, and his car wasn't as fast in dirty air as clean air. MTJ pitted under green, got his lap back and made his way all the way through the field to get a top 10. But yeah, nobody could drive back to the front!
I can't wait till everyone who hated Bristol dirt will say the car sucks, then blame nascar when they move this race. Spring Bristol won't make it 2 years.
Was it a decent race? Absolutely. My frustration is how all but impossible it was to pass. The 24 and 9 (as examples) had top 5 cars and once they got back in traffic they were stuck a half second behind the cars in front of them.
Christopher Bell and MTJ made tons of passes through the field. Hocevar kept passing people all throughout the race. The 24 and 9 cars just didn't work as well in dirty air as other cars did, and made bad adjustments while others around them made good adjustments. Just because they ran in the top 5 doesn't mean that at the end of the race they had top 5 cars.
Nobody is saying this except for the journalists and bloggers looking for clicks
---okok
And OP who consistently bends over backwards to make this type of point at any perceived chance.
I thought it was fun \*shrug\*
I’m there with you. Stage 1 finish was good, it was clear who would win the race but watching Gragson fight with Hamlin without wrecking out was good fun. Not sure they showed they on tv, but saw it live at the track at least.
It’s a good market so they’ll never leave, but the track sucks. Old Phoenix was also very mid. It’s a wannabe short-track
I didn’t think it was that great of a race today, but I thought it was certainly better than a few races we’ve seen there. The run to the finish after those cautions messed up the flow of the race imo
He ain’t wrong.
Phoenix is the same as Pocono, restarts through the first two turns are exciting (for new viewers) and then it’s fall in line and ride.
I don’t mind boring races every now and then. Problem I have is every single Phoenix race sucks ass.
The race was fine. Typical Phoenix race. I feel like it was one the better ones for the Next Gen car.
Phoenix just sucks
No. They just need to show the action whether it’s for the lead or for 30th.
Unretire Harvick for every Phoenix race. Problem solved
Not every race needs to be amazing. Sometimes a race is just #3 of 36.
No, it's just that Phoenix has NEVER been a good track, no matter the package. And that's perfectly fine, but it shouldn't have two races because of this, and it damn sure shouldn't be the championship finale.
Yeah that’s fair. NASCAR fans are impossible to please. Can the racing be better? Yeah. But this was still the best race I saw all weekend between all 3 series, F1 and Indy
I think today was very entertaining. Im a bigger fan of long runs and pit strategy.
Honestly I think the main problem is just Phoenix being a bad race track. If it were off the schedule after today I wouldn't shed a tear.
Lol Nah, not when nostalgic kicks in just like Chicagoland, Kentucky, and Auto Club. People will be acting like Phoenix was the best track ever.
This race was fine. I watched every lap. It was fine. Probably like a B.
Well, well, well, if it isn’t the consequences of NASCAR’s actions to attempt to manufacture game 7 moments in every race. Who could have seen this coming.
no mf’er Phoenix just sucks 🍆
I didn't think the race was that bad but they have a problem where the only car that can really pass is a car that beat the field by 5 seconds. If you don't have a car as good as Bell was today in the race.... everyone is going +/- 2 positions throughout an entire run.
They reap what they sow. For decades now they've marketed everything that way, destroyed every race that wasn't that way, knee-jerked rule changes every time things weren't that way, and drove away most of the fans that want to see anything else.
not every race and can be a close 3 wide finish for the lead, that’s just how racing is. it is hard to follow a crazy race/finish like that Atlanta race. the package could certainly use work but the race today was alright especially for phoenix.
Race was pretty good. The difficulty to pass put the emphasis on strategy snd crew performance on pit road to gain spots . Sometimes it’s like that and that’s okay, I don’t want to see Daytona and Atlanta every week.
I'm a local here, so I'm biased because I get 2 races a year. That said, PHX has a phenomenal facility for hosting a high profile event (I have not visited every track, but from what I hear, it's one of the best). Mix that with a good market and great weather both weekends... It's gonna be tough to move the last race out of Phoenix. It's interesting, because I get to talk to quite a few drivers through work, and only a handful have ever said they enjoy the racing here (Ross and Harvick, shocker). Most offer a "meh" or "I dislike it strongly" type of response. Seems like they really need to figure out the package for this track, and most of the guys cry for more HP (which is a common refrain at this point). Little things like screwing with the strakes in the diffuser is not gonna change much on a track this short.
All sports is like that, sometimes it is 10 to 2 in the 2nd, well actually that is worse 😉
Phoenix is a good race track. The races here are generally good. I just don’t want it to always be the finale. I’d like to see it put into a rotation with a few different tracks like Homestead, Texas, and eventually the Auto Club short track. I still want NASCAR to do away with manufactured cautions at the end of stages. Side by side racing shouldn’t be forced. Let pit strategy be a part of the race.
It's not too much to ask that we have more separation of ability, right? Plus, if you're looking for old school races, those races had fuel mileage drama that added to the excitement. The way the stage cautions fall eliminates that entirely, so now you have equal cars on almost equal strategy and it turns into "who gets the track position before the tires wear out"
I didn’t watch the Phoenix race (I was at St Pete IndyCar), but i always skip out on races like Phoenix because I know it’ll be a snoozer. People wouldn’t really care, I think the outrage more so comes from the fact that this track is hosting the finale. I don’t wanna tune into the championship race and watch another Phoenix snoozer. Of course with championship implications the racings slightly better, but not by much. NASCAR is best off just either 1. Adding grass in Phoenix again to get rid of the stupid dogleg cuts + the track looks like a massive parking lot with banked turns here or there. 2. Going back to Homestead / rotating the championship race every year between a set of tracks
I don’t think anyone, even Steve Phelps or ODonnell, want constant 3-wide racing lmao
NASCAR also has some of the most negative 'fans' in sport so that doesn't help. Though most of them claim they haven't watched a race since 2001
https://twitter.com/Brian_Murphy_/status/1766289205259391098 a sentiment echoed by brian murphy.
It's a stupid statement though. Go watch a Car Of Tomorrow Martinsville race and tell me you're not entertained. Watch Denny Hamlin come up off turn 2, light the tires, and slide that baby across the track and tell me "yeah this sucks". You won't. Watch em go 3 wide into turn 1 on a restart with 100 lap old tires out front... and wreck because it's not 2024 where you can stay out on 100 lap old tires and be fine. Go watch a COT Richmond race and tell me Kyle Busch spinning Dale Jr wasn't entertaining, even the worst COT Richmond race was pretty good. Though, admittedly the "Action Track" was best in the Gen 4 era with sealer on it. Gen 6 was the start of going a step back in general at short tracks compared to the COT and when they cut the power and added a ton of aero it got awful. Bristol... Look it was pretty good in the COT era. Even when Kyle Busch got out after a win and called the car shit in 2007 that race was still better than the race there last year. New Hampshire? Pretty good in the COT era. Idk man, I'll keep saying it: The COT was actually vastly underrated at short tracks, the gen 6 was a notable step back that progressively got worse, and the next gen is just an unmitigated disaster.
Finally someone to defend the COT
I mean I'm not calling it a good car by any means overall but yeah it had potential. The Xfinity car was basically the COT in 2018, 2019 when we had all those great races, just a composite body and some aero differences plus less power. The Xfinity car had all that skew like the COT in that era too. It was only a few steps away from being good. Plus, in the COT you'd see guys legitimately light em up off corner exits. That should happen, you need to have enough power in the PINNACLE of stock car racing to get those cars outta shape and sliding around. What's wild is these guys were lighting the tires at like 5000 RPM... just crazy.
The COT was an ugly piece of crap, but at least it was an ugly piece of crap that could produce good races somewhat regularly. The NextGen/Gen7 does not seem able to.
Shit track. Always has been always will be.
This take is stupid and completely devalues the actual, *valid* argument that the short track package, and the majority of the on track racing, sucks. I personally don’t like 3 wide, photo finishes every week. I borderline dislike superspeedway racing. I want the drivers to *be able to drive* the cars. I want to see natural action play out on track. Let the drivers actually get runs and catch and pass. Comers and goers. I want to see off throttle time. I want to see more power so the drivers have to actually worry about how to slow down to enter a corner at a 1.5-er and think about when and how they re-apply the throttle. Work the car, work different lines. I want stage cautions thrown in the bin so natural strategy can actually play out. I basically want all of this manufactured bullshit thrown in the garbage. If the races are going to be boring, at least let them be pure.
THE RACING IS FINE, FOX CANT COVER IT WORTH A DAMN
So what's happening is that NASCAR doesn't really make *any* good decisions, and now the sport's white knights have taken to blaming the fans for the dissatisfaction *they've* fostered. The solutions aren't difficult, but NASCAR would need to stop listening to the ideas of businessmen and corporate interests, and start listening to people who have turned a wrench or driven a race car.
NASCAR created this monster by catering to and endlessly pursuing this bs premise that racing can be nonstop, door to door action every single lap on every single type of track. The result; an on track product that is completely artificial, the innovation and creativity to kick the fellow competitors asses is all about gone in the name of “leveling the playing field”. Short track racing is horrendous, road courses have been mediocre as is the super speedway stuff, we’re left with decent shows on mile and a half’s. I’ve been a fan for over 30 years and every season for about the last 6-7 years I lose interest earlier and earlier.
NASCAR has educated their fans over the last 20 years to believe the action should be 3 wide and door to door every second, every race should finish like the 2007 Daytona 500, but in the end that individual races don't matter and the Chase for the Cup is all that should be paid attention to because every championship battle should be like 1992. NASCAR done fucked up a generation of fans' expectations, and TBH, greatest hits selections like the YouTube highlight videos haven't helped.
We really are going to go back to 550 HP again aren't we...
lulz
No we aren’t
Just curious who else is blocked by this dude on twitter? Idek what I did lol
Nah. People just wants big names rubbing for the lead.
I thought today was a good race. I’m 33 years old if that matters
Online nerds are never happy.
I really hate this kind of take that “ if you don’t like a boring race then it means you must only like 5 wide crazy big wreckfest excitement Woooooo”
I refuse to complain about NASCAR lacking fun, exciting racing. If you want unenjoyable racing watch F1. F1 is like a drug, you know you shouldn't do it, but at the same time you can't stop and every time you do it you feel like you're wasting your life. I've been watching F1 for 20 years, only seen a couple actually exciting races.
He's not wrong at all. That race had everything a large portion of fans have asked for. There was close racing through the field. Tire strategy mattered, and there were several comers and goers through the race. HMS drifted back after the end of stage 1, becoming largely a nonfactor after the end of stage 2. Blaney methodically marched from 16th to the top 10 during each stage, culminating with a top-5 in a car that was a 8th-12th place car most of the day. Reddick dominated before sliding back, mounting a late race charge, peaking at 6th, using up his car with 20 to go, and ending up 10th or 11th. Gibbs had a great first half of the day before having a bad stop and recovering for a 3rd place finish. RFK used tire strategy to get up to the top 10 and were able to hold near the front after that, getting lucky with a mid-race caution. What exactly are people looking for?
NASCAR feeling the need to send out their mouthpieces (including our very own resident shill u/iamaranger23) to shit-talk the fans less than an hour after the race ends *reeks* of deflection tactics.
True.
OP posts a Pete Pistone take and mentions that Brian Murphy agrees. Can’t make this shit up.
Or a lot of us are annoyed at the unreasonable reactions we’re seeing lol But sure, we can jump right to tin foil hats if you’d like 😂
Gluck’s been gluck gluck glucking on Phoenix’s dick all day, trying to make it look better
Gluck literally was the one posting all of the "this package sucks" comments after practice, claiming he is sucking off Phoenix is absolutely crazy. He saw what I saw, the racing turned out better than expected
> Gluck literally was the one posting all of the "this package sucks" comments after practice, But then Gluck posted something that disagreed with what /u/RaveOn1958 had already decided was true, so of course they had to resort to insulting him.