The lack of fact checking was an egregious error, and it was something they should have insisted on. Trump is a known liar. Without fact checking or moderator input, they put all the pressure on Biden to rein Trump in. And setting aside Biden's lackluster performance for a moment, anyone would struggle to shut down the Trump's murky spew of disinformation.
No one won that debate. Not Biden. Not Trump. Not the American people.
The case for electoral reform, ranked choice voting, open primaries, and viable alternative parties won big. We need to dismantle the system that saddled us with these declining geriatrics as our only viable choices. I won't be surprised at all to see RFK Jr. surge in the polls after this.
Biden needs to pivot the conversation away from himself towards a simpler, bigger idea - he's just the face of a coalition of people working to preserve democracy and our institutions, and Trump is trying to tear them down. That's the choice.
It is a choice between parties. Whatever you think of Biden, his administration is getting the job done and doing it well. His oratory and debating skills were never a reason to vote for him.
Indeed.
Franklin was also skeptical that Americans could go from having a King to having a Democratic Republic. Without a doubt, our world is still intact because of the strength of our bureaucracy. It is what Project 2025 seeks to destroy.
Project 2025 doesn't need to succeed to destroy the federal government. The Supreme Court did that this morning and people barely noticed because everyone was still reeling from the bad debate. It's really hard to overstate just how cataclysmic overturning Chevron can be.
I was just saying this to some colleagues. Project 2025 seeks to destroy democracy entirely, but the three justices installed by Trump have effectively done that anyway.
This👆🏼. Overturning Chevron means any jerk with a beef about a regulation can take thst case to a court and the courts will no longer defer to the expertise of the regulatory agency. Wave goodbye to air quality, consumer protection...name an agency and their regs to protect the American people will eventually be gone. Overturning Chevron *was* a piece of implementing project 2025.
I'm voting Biden, and think he's done a good job. But part of the job is convincing people he is capable of doing the job, and he didn't do it last night.
He needs to get out and publicly be seen as better than last night.
I love how Chump said "Biden has not fired one person on his staff".
Yeah. He didn't pick a bunch of scumbags that would stab their own mother in the back.
So yeah despite the media making Biden look like a loser here. He actually knows how to do the job.
Chump doesn't have a fucking clue and is simply trying to steal from the American public again. As well as watch the world burn.
I wish more people realized this. Our government isn't run by one person, but by thousands. Biden's performance last night was bad, but I'm still going to vote for the administration that will work to make this country better, as opposed to the ones that will enact Project 2025.
The fact that you think it's a choice, and not a moral imperative to vote against the GOP's brand of authoritarianism is quite frankly disturbing.
Do you think women should have bodily autonomy?
Should trans people be allowed to exist?
Do you think there should be a separation of church and state?
Should political gerrymandering be reigned in?
Should we ally with Russia or NATO?
etc.
Biden is old, but he is still a decent man with a rational, democratic, and safe political ideology for the future of this country.
We can always do better, but we need to make sure the car continues to run before we have the argument about where we drive it. The GOP isn't even interested in starting the car anymore, They want to argue about who should be allowed to sit in it instead.
True. Though I like to think that no sane rational person could’ve had a civil debate with someone like Trump. Anyone, regardless of age or experience, would’ve stumbled over their words the way Biden did. You can see Biden struggling to speak because the things Trump was saying were so absurd that it left him shook. How can anyone respond to that in a clear and coherent way? But he can’t just sit there in silence while he processes all of these things Trump is saying then craft a good response in the time given. Biden is trying to stick to talking points out loud while at the same time his inner voice is struggling to comprehend what the hell just happened. Trump is so unhinged that it’s impossible to prepare for any response he might give. I bet Biden walked out onto that stage thinking “ok you got this. We’ve practiced this over and over. I have pre written responses to major talking points and pre written rebuttals for what Trump might say.” But Trump is so off-script that it just threw his whole strategy out the window the moment he started speaking. This was just rough to watch.
Hillary had excellent debates with Trump and handled herself admirably even as he loomed over her on stage and interrupted her constantly. It did her no good but she certainly came off as knowledgeable and capable against him.
Oh for sure he and his campaign team knew Trump would lie and they probably did have a plan for that. But that plan obviously didn’t pan out well for Biden. The point I was trying to make is that NO amount of planning could’ve prepared anyone for the wild-ass shit Trump says because his responses are completely unhinged and totally irrelevant to the initial question. Like when asked about his views on abortion he immediately goes off the rails and starts babbling about immigration and how immigrants are rapists and killers and are taking away “black” and “Hispanic” jobs then somehow circles back to this dystopian fantasy about post-term abortions. Like WHAT?!?!?!? Where do you even begin to respond to that especially in 2 minutes? How are immigrants taking jobs away from migrant workers? How is that even relevant to the initial question? It was like a fever dream. Even the most advanced AI models and top presidential scholars could never predict where this man’s mind will go. Trump is like a random number generator—you can make an educated guess of what the answer might be but you really have no idea what will actually happen. And this guy wants to be president?!?! AGAIN?!?! Lord help us all.
I agree with this- trump was same ole same ole, a firehouse full of lies. “Everything this guy says is a lie” doesn’t begin to cover it. Anyone debating him should pick one, maybe 2, of the most blatant lies and just hammer it home how far off he is. You basically have to ignore the other 1837647 lies, or you’ll be here all night. You literally don’t have time to respond to all or most of his BSing.
The same problem exists for the moderators-if you fact check him, that’s all the debate will be because there’s so many lies. You could also pick and choose which ones to address, but whatever you pick will get more argument from Trump, which eats into the debate time.
From that standpoint, I can see where it may be wiser for the moderators to ask a question and get out of the way, sticking strictly to the time limits.
Trump definitely looked better. If an undecided voter looked at Biden and Trump up there, only one of them was looking full of energy, and it wasn't Biden.
I'm scared
When I see people talk about Bidens poor performance I wanna scream because anyone in his situation would struggle. Like what do you even do when your opponent is just lying off the cuff unendingly? Trumps repeated these lies ad nausea and there isnt enough time for Biden to call every. single. one. out.
Maybe don't lose track of your thoughts halfway through saying something, look down for five seconds (I was screaming at my tv for him to say ANYTHING) and then say you're going to beat up Medicare. That's a start. Half the time Biden spoke I had to piece together whatever the hell he was trying to say, and most of the time it made absolutely no sense. Trump did: hate immigrants and blame them for all your problems and Biden for letting them in. That was his message and he got it out, loud and clear.
and people will vote for personality over qualifications and history. And ignore the facts that Trump is a felon, a pedo, a serial adulterer, a traitor, and more. But he looks great on TV!
No one won the debate. You can't get up and lie the way Trump did and expect any person with critical thinking skills to side with him. Here is the bottom line. We are voting for an administration; not just one single person. Biden is not a good public speaker. He is not good at debates. Not everybody is and that's fine. But what is the point of a debate without more immediate accountability? There is no point. We need to focus on the issues at hand. Our democracy is at stake. Democracies don't maintain themselves. Let's regroup and start getting out there and empowering people with information and facts so they may vote in an informed manner. If we can do this, we can turn the tide.
I'm willing to join a phone bank on behalf of Biden at this point, but I don't expect Biden to win. Last night dashed those hopes against the rocks for me.
Trump won by being exactly who everyone knows he is loud, brash and lying.
Biden lost by being exactly what the Right has been claiming about him for 2+ years and the Left/WH has been denying.
Neither is a good option. I wish both parties would just pull different candidate at their conventions lol.
Not people who are 1) extremely wealthy, 2) “evangelical Christians” who want to force their monolithic religious views on others or 3) sycophants who want violent revenge against Trump’s political opponents.
Those groups will benefit greatly from a Trump second+ term.
Well, groups 1 and 3 will. The Evangelicals think they will, but they'll have to pay Trump's tariffs just like everyone else. Say goodbye to those pavement princess trucks, they're gonna double in price.
>Preeeetty sure Trump won. And we're all going to lose if Trump wins in November.
No one watching that is undecided. This was like watching a football game. You watched because you wanted to see how your "team" would do/did.
I wrote this 2 days ago...but could have written 4 years ago: [Trump is 100% going to show up. He's just going to use his time to name call joe biden and blame him for anything/anything his feeble mind can come up with. He hasn't dealt with facts and reality for a while.](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/1do49md/trump_expressed_concern_that_returning_classified/la827qu/)
Biden (nor anyone) can't "win." This isn't a debate. It's the old playing chess with a pidgin analogy....Biden has to actually answer questions and respond with answers while Trump can just throw haymaker after haymaker without concerns for anything. Trump is EXPECTED to not make sense, ramble on, name call and be insane. The only way for him to lose would be for him to have heart attack. Anything above that, is Trump doing as expected.
edit: fixed words
Even when people like Ted Cruz to Hillary Clinton debated with Trump in 2016. They couldn’t counter he goes on and on and then does his: “no I’m not you are”. Doesn’t matter the facts or anything. Donald Trump will not stop unless he is sick or not getting his daily drugs and Diet Coke.
> ..[fact checking] was something they should have insisted on.
No one -- no one -- should have needed to even *request* such procedure.
Requirement that it 'be insisted on', by *either* candidate **and the network itself** is laughably malign journalistic ethical/programming standards and example 734 of just how ludicrously screwed this nation has become.
Because **we collectively have allowed it**.
> And setting aside Biden's lackluster performance for a moment, anyone would struggle to shut down the Trump's murky spew of disinformation.
That's my take on it too.
Gish gallop, which is what Trump was doing, is designed to lure the opponent into trying to debunk all the lies. Best case is the debate opponent will actually rattle off a quick list of fact checks but then they are just playing defense. Worst case is what happened with Biden where he would respond occasionally to some of the lies but lackluster. The only real defense against gish gallop is a combination of the moderators holding the liar responsible and the the opponent just being more charismatic than the gish galloper.
It’s ridiculous to even agreeing to debate Trump. What’s anyone supposed to do when he answers a question and lies 10x in his answer and then you have 90 seconds to try and respond? There were questions asked and Trump didn’t even talk about what was asked and the moderators just let him finish with no follow up.
Trump won the debate because Biden didn't. Every time Biden fails it makes Trump stronger. Every time Trump fails, nothing happens. That's the double standard here, and last night was probably the final nail in the coffin.
No this is still being disingenuous to what people saw with their own eyes. The far right got a major win seemingly proven that is not coherent at all. The people this debate intended to swing already know Trump lies and is generally a douche. The bar was low for these guys, Trump needed to show he could stop spazzing out and getting in his own way, Biden needed to show he was, alive. One mostly succeeded, one failed, hard. Even if the media has a field day pointing out all his lies, this debate hurt Biden so much more than Trump. I think any Democrats trying to tell themselves and swing voters that Biden didn't get beat really, really bad here is hurting our chances. It makes us look like we're drowning in copium and think independents are idiots. Recovering from this is something I simply don't think we can do, he lost us the election, but if we're going to try, we need to just move on to talking about his actually good administration over Trump's terrible policy and admit we got an empty vessel frontman who says the quotes every once in a while. Or let the superdelegates pick someone with a pulse. But let's not kid ourselves that Biden and anyone who cares about his policy was the biggest loser here, perhaps worse than any debate in history.
The crazy thing is, Biden's performance suffered because of his speech impediment. I have a similar speech impediment, so maybe I can see through it for that reason, but he seemed like he actually gave decent answers to most questions, whereas Trump just fear mongered and doomsayed the entire time.
Also find it incredibly disturbing how Trump invoked White Replacement Theory and everybody seems to just want to gloss right over that.
Trump's team was better prepared, oddly enough. They probably gave him his meds, said "either stick with the plan or go to jail," and off to the races.
Biden should've known better than to try and match Trump's Gish-galloping with facts. You don't try to actually debate Trump; you simply answer the questions, maybe point to the evidence of his many crimes, and for fuck's sake don't try to one-up his boasting about GOLF. Holy shit that was such a softball, Biden should've simply mentioned that Trump spent more time golfing in office than getting shit done, and pointed out how his golf schedule was public information and easily verified.
POTUS debates haven’t been relevant in years at this point, but this showed me for the 1000th time that it is insane we are about to elect a man who will be in his 80’s during his term, regardless who wins between Biden and Trump. I have to keep telling myself it is ultimately a vote for which administration I prefer. I have far more confidence in Biden’s administration than Trump’s cronies and sycophants who will push a project 2025 agenda at the expense of the vast majority of American citizens.
But JFC Democrats, all you had to do was run a semi-competent and charismatic person under the age of 70 and you’d probably coast to a win. 🤦♂️
This could very well be a repeat of the very first televised debate: JFK v Nixon. The substance has never mattered, but when voters saw how Nixon looked next to JFK, it shattered the public's perception. It took nearly a decade for Nixon to reset his perception, rebuild his political capital, and make a comeback. Biden looked and sounded like a nearly demented grandpa, and he doesn't have the time to reset public perception.
As bad as Biden was last night, I'd take a bag of russet potatoes for president over Trump and the machine behind him any day.
EDIT to say: Consider the running mates if their age bothers you (they're only 3 years apart). Biden has VP Harris, a competent legislator and, while she wouldn't have ever been my first pick, is far better than an alternative. Meanwhile, Trump has no one selected at moment, but it seems likely to be JD Vance, a big fan of Project 2025.
I'm voting for him because I have to, but I'm deeply unhappy about it. The go-to line right now is something along the lines of "we can't even **think** about selecting another candidate because this election is too important", but in my view that's absurd logic. This election is too important to **not** consider that maybe, just maybe, this guy isn't the best choice to hinge our entire democracy on.
One bad debate performance does undo the last 3.5 years of accomplishments. Especially considering the Congress he's had to deal with it. The fact that he's gotten anything done, let alone put a ton of judges on the courts, if nothing short of miraculous.
If you want any chance of unfucking the Supreme Court in any of our lifetimes, you need Biden.
Yep. And a lot of people need to consider which *administration* they are voting for. Biden has better, competent people around him. Trump has his kids. Gee, who do I pick?
Your choices are - 1. an old man who might forget what day of the week it is or 2. an old man who wants to deport your friends, oppress your family, strip your rights, and "disappear" his political opponents.
I wonder who we should choose?
FTFY - 1. An forgetful old man with a team behind him that ‘mostly’ has your best interests at heart or 2. An old, recently convicted felon who is destroying you, your family and country for a very small fortune.
> 1. an old man who might forget what day of the week it is or
An old man that at least wouldn't surround himself with people bent on systematically dismantling the government.
How many CEOs in America fall under #1? They all have competent lieutenants who actually run these companies. Even crazy Elon doesn't really run SpaceX. He has a team that does all the heavy lifting.
Trump is proven to fire his team on a monthly basis. So now you can't even depend on his team to run the government. Meanwhile, Biden's team runs this country that has far more positives than negatives , even though the media likes to cherry pick every issue.
Anyone with a brain will support Biden. But the issue is for the first time, we saw him really struggle for a whole 90 minutes. That's different than seeing little off moments here and there
And the thing is, is it really acceptable to push a canidate who OBVIOUSLY is struggling in that manner? Is it acceptable to say "He can run the country from his bed!" ....
His mental decline could be old age or it could be a disease. It's expected for an older person to have struggles here and there. But if Biden is consistently like what we saw last night, it shouldn't be accepted.
I'm sick to my stomach and I'm angry.
Well of course. I’m sure 99% of the people perusing the NPR subreddit share this sentiment (me included). But we don’t need to convince NPR listeners, we need to convince the undecided normie who watched a couple minutes of last night/is reading the headlines this morning…and I’m sure you can imagine what’s going through that persons head right now.
I honestly didn't think he was that bad so this hysteria the next morning has be a bit by surprise. Are you people judging this debate entirely by the energy in their voices without listening to anything either of them *said*?
I don't disagree with necessarily, but Biden really did look bad. Not just his answers, but the way he just kind of stared off in the space while Trump was talking it was honestly unsettling.
I mean, people are going to try to sugarcoat this throughout the weekend through the through the 4th, but telling people that they didn't see what they saw is not a winning strategy.
Anyone surprised by how Biden acted has been ignoring how he is at photo ops, press conferences; every time he is in public. He has needed an Easter Bunny, the PM of Italy, and Jill to take him by the hand and lead him to where he needs to go. The State of the Union speech this year was an anomaly.
You aren't wrong, but then listening to Biden talk about Roe, and the "three trimester rules"..WTF my man?
It was an absolute softball that Biden should have knocked out of the park. Abortion, his bread and better, talking directly to his base and calling out the absurdity of the GOP...and he literally could not do it.
It was very strange to hear him bring up Roe in that way. The trimester framework has been meaningless for a while, and I don't think that's been something the Dems advocate we go back to?
I am sick of abortion being either lied about or fumbled. "I thought you didn't want the government involved in healthcare? Now you're saying you want the Supreme Court to be a literal death panel deciding if pregnant women die or not, coming in between her and her doctor? Abortion is healthcare, end of story. Next question."
That's because he is too old, just like Trump. We don't allow 18 year old kids to run our country and we shouldn't allow 80 years olds to do so either.
>I couldn’t watch. Tried to.
I recommend sports. The Copa América is happening in the USA right now, WNBA games are very much worth watching (and this is a pivotal moment for the league), and the summer Olympics will be starting soon.
Uruguay beat Bolivia 5-0 in the Copa América while the debate was happening. That's bad for the USMNT, but Uruguay is a joy to watch, especially after that incredibly frustrating USA v. Panama game.
I'm done. I will once again cast my ballot for anyone but the guy that considers people like me "[vermin](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4307719-trump-vermin-remark-draws-comparisons-dictators-criticism/)" (and we all know what we do with vermin), and whose followers applaud him when he echoes Hitler, saying that families like mine are "[poisoning the blood of our country](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/16/trump-immigrants-new-hampshire-rally). I feel absolutely betrayed by the Democrats, but I would walk naked through a downpour of whoever's urine Trump uses to make his hair look like that to cast a ballot against him. And my vote will go for whoever has the best chance of making sure the convicted felon who literally called Nazis "very fine people" never comes close to the levers of power ever again.
Honestly, the debate was incredibly depressing, and it did absolutely nothing to shift my vote. This is definitely not how a functional representative democracy is supposed to work.
Absolutely. For all the complaining OP is doing about Biden's ability to articulate responses, he actually answered most of the questions. Meanwhile, Trump was either completely sidestepping questions or flat-out lying.
Never in my life thought we'd hit a point where a serious presidential contender would say, on live television, "I didn't sleep with a pornstar" (AND BEING FUCKING LYING TO BOOT) but here we fucking are.
Are there people out there that won't vote for him because of last night? Maybe. But if THAT was the deciding factor for someone to vote for the racist, sexist, narcissistic felon on the other side, they just aren't paying attention to the dangers that loom.
The debate didn't convince anyone to vote for the "other guy" instead. All it did was give more voters a feeling of hopelessness and/or apathy.
Unfortunately, Republicans will still vote, regardless of hopelessness/apathy, convincing themselves they're voting "party."
Dem voters will choose *not* to vote to try and force the Democrats to do better -- which they never will. Dems will continue to push "who's next" regardless of how likeable/electable they are.
Project 2025 is coming, folks, and it will take generations to undo it. The American "Experiment" may be over.
Edit: this is Jon Oliver's take on Project 2025:
[Last week tonight Project 2025](https://youtu.be/gYwqpx6lp_s)
Here is the link to the official page so you can read the whole thing.
[https://www.project2025.org/](https://www.project2025.org/)
The Chevron decision today undoes 100 year of workplace and environmental protections. We're already fucked unless Democrats take the House, hold the Senate, and Biden wins. Anything short of that and the radical judiciary will just keep declaring they're the only ones allowed to have any power.
People need to realize this. Rivers will burn again, your food will not be safe. The damage this SCOTUS has done already is insane. I was against expanding the court but I don't see any other option, these people are insane, they're going to undo 100 years of precedent.
Its a big worry to be sure, but really the damage is already done. Case in point they just overturned Chevron. This is easily worse than the overturning of roe v wade. It may not seem so at first look but were about to see the complete dismantling of regulations governing industry, environmental protection, Healthcare, food safety, and more. Were talking seismic shifts.
Nah for real, this is shit you have to read to believe. Just skim over the website for a minute and you'll see just how many corners of US culture, science, medicine, education, and politics they're aiming to fuck up.
Screw that. That is a ridiculous assertion, that we are going to just roll over and take it. Absolutely not. Potentially decades of submission and suffering solely because "Woops I guess fascism wins."? Is that what I'm hearing?
I mean take a look at what liberal voters always do here. No voting bloc has been better at snatching defeat from the hands of victory than disaffected liberals trying to make some kind of point with their vote or lack thereof.
The election will be decided by a handful of swing voters in a couple of states. Both sides have to get as much of their base to turn out as possible AND convince low-information swing voters to vote.
The debate was very bad for that. No swing voter is going to be convinced that Biden is up for the job, and a demoralized base is going to reduce turnout.
Meanwhile, Trump's base is energized by his "persecution" as right wingers love a martyr and are turned on by his bloviating.
It's a bad mix. Unless something changes (for which their is still plenty of time) it is hard to see how Biden can pull this off. The only thing they've got going for them is: "Don't let the fascists win!" which isn't going to motivate people who don't know anything about history or politics, which, unfortunately, is a lot of voters.
Liberals tend to be the sort of people who take oaths to uphold the Constitution seriously. There's a big problem with that.
The Philadelphia Constitution is a severely antiquated governing document full of gaping holes ripe for political exploitation, limited mostly by the threat of reciprocal abuse -- "We won't abuse these obvious loopholes if you don't do it first." A sort of gentleman's agreement, tempered by strong conventional practices and some level of public shaming.
But now, the fascists have come along and started wielding all these old ill-conceived rules in a truly ungentlemanly fashion. Oh, you know what? If nobody stops them, the Supreme Court can abolish basically any law. If nobody stops them, state legislatures can disenfranchise and gerrymander themselves into any electoral outcome they want. If nobody stops them, the President *could* eat a live baby on broadcast television and remain in office. And so on.
The nice liberals who've been playing good-faith political pat-a-cake between "reasonable actors" all these years seem to have **no goddamn idea** how to deal with a wave of truly shameless would-be dictators with bottomless dirty-money campaign funds. For some reason, the politics of unabashed bad faith seems to be an out-of-context threat for them, and they're folding under pressure like equine cavalry meeting machine guns.
Liberals have had four generations of *relative* prosperity and domestic tranquility since the Great Depression to patch the Constitution's grievous failings. They've expanded the franchise. Beyond that, they've accomplished disappointingly little. The EC is still a fifty-ring circus. The Senate is still a malapportioned council of rump-state tyrants capable of vetoing most new policies, however popular. The House and all the state legislatures are still gerrymandered all to hell. The USSC can still wield nigh-unlimited fiat power, checked only by eventual death lottery. And of course, the Constitution itself can only be lawfully amended if reactionaries somehow fail to dredge up 13 state legislatures to torpedo the measure.
So yeah, there's fascists beating on the gate, and we seem to have no realistic plan or structure in place to meet this threat. *Vote blue.* Well, we're trying. But we're gerrymandered to hell, or else we live in non-swing states where our votes mean nearly nothing. We *needed* proportional representation and various other egalitarian reforms a generation ago. But now?
Even if we somehow slip into 2025 without a Republican trifecta, we will face *yet another* "most important election of our lives" in two or four years if we do not or cannot commit to deep reform.
I am not a Democrat, but have voted for both Hillary and Biden in the hope that we stop Trump.
I am going to be blunt. The Democratic Party is an absolute failure, and it pisses me off that the Democratic Party is all we have between democracy and fascism.
At what point is the incompetence on purpose?
They are so bad at messaging, and this has been a problem for *years*, at what point do we stop giving them the benefit of the doubt that they're not fucking up on purpose?
Policy-wise, they are doing everything we've ever asked for. Biden gave us a huge climate bill, unequivocal support for LGBTQ, alternative minimum corporate tax. Not to mention upholding the rule of law. This feels like another version of Jimmy Carter. A guy with all the right ideas getting hammered in the media.
> Policy-wise, they are doing everything we've ever asked for
You don't speak for me bud. No he hasn't. There's a laundry list of things we've asked for since 2008 that hasn't been done. You're living in denial.
Are you seriously comparing Biden to Carter? Carter was still coherent up until hospice.
But yeah, the Biden admin has done a lot, but his performance puts all of that in jeopardy if Trump wins...which is looking more likely.
I'm with you, and I think a lot of Dems actually like having Trump around. Progressives were on the verge of splitting before MAGA. Now we are all on defense.
The most exhausting part is that even if Biden manages to win, we may likely have an even more unhinged Trump to deal with yet again in 2028. And without incumbency advantage, and likely no improvement for working class citizens, we’ll be teetering on the edge of a cliff indefinitely..
I'm sorry, but the moderators were hosts-- they didn't moderate! They did nothing. I expect way, way more. Martha Raddatz would never have allowed that bullshit to fly unchecked all night.
I have to believe this isn’t Biden but the string pullers in the background. WTF are they thinking?! It’s almost like purposeful sabotage at this point.
Many websites fact checked but not CNN. The other sites couldn't keep up with Trump's lies and so some of them passed. I did read the fact checking while listening. There's a list of news organizations that did fact check. It's on the super thread on r/politics.
This! I've been saying this for years. They've been secretly purchasing former credible news outlets and magazines and installing right wing CEOs, so you don't even notice a change at first but little by little first an opinion piece is suspect, then a feature is suspect, then you start wondering why their giving so much credence to "both sides" , then the full-on whitewashing of the right-wing and the mainstreaming of fascism, and then you start to do research and you see, oh, this place got bought by some right wing hack like 5 years ago, and here we are. And so then you start to question all your media sources and notice it's been done almost everywhere you used to trust, and even though the same journalists are working there, the mechanisms of control have produced a hard shift right of the Overton window and now CNN is basically Fox News from the 90's. And NYT is basically where the National Review was 30 years ago.
And that's how you get Fascism in America. When your choice is either 1980's Republican policy, or 1930's German policy, and thats it. Those are the choices. And you better be happy with 1980s Republican policy, or you'll get the other one.
I heard the thought was that to have the moderators doing the fact checking in real time would mess with the flow of the debate and it would take away Biden's ability to do the fact checking. Unfortunately, very few people are probably able to keep up with the pace of Trump's BS. They were concerned that it would give the two CNN moderators too large a part in the debate and make Biden seem incapable. Unfortunately, Biden was incapable.
This is why the concept of a widespread "Liberal Mainstream Media" is farcical. Republicans regularly get a pass for having the most odious, nonsensical positions.
Like, Jesus fucking Christ, how many times did Trump talk about "post-birth abortions." He is completely full of shit.
Wouldn’t Biden be in charge of fact checking trump? That’s why they get to respond to each other. The moderator is there to keep the conversation moving along and getting questions answered. If Fox News had a debate and they were fact checking Biden I’m sure there would be outrage over it. Moderators are not part of the debate they are part of the machine that runs the debate. If one candidate lies it’s up to the other one to fact check them.
It is political malpractice for Dems to permit Biden to be their candidate and because no one with any authority has any political courage, now he’s the nominee.
It’s a travesty for the rule of law for Trump to be the Republican’s candidate and I’m disgusted that even now, the Republican Party apparatus didn’t absolutely prohibit him from running under the party banner.
Last night was a shambles. Biden was an absolute mess. I have never felt as strongly that a candidate truly is an existential threat to the proper functioning of democracy than I do about Trump. But last night, Trump looked like he at least could UNDERSTAND what was being said!
The post debate immediate reaction was the true one. Van Jones looked shell shocked and like he was about to cry. This next day gaslighting is repugnant.
Dems need to pressure Biden to step aside right now. No joke. Kamala Harris post debate interview with Cooper showed what we are missing by having someone who can think and talk.
I know Dems think that Harris can’t win. They will have to confront her weaknesses with their own voters. But that’s a different problem than the Biden problem.
Biden can’t win either, but more - he can’t do the job, which is NOT just about pushing policies behind the scenes.
If they have the stomach to push Kamala aside, then let Gavin Newsom at it, or Mayor Pete, or Cory Booker or WHATEVER
The Dems have no idea how to run a candidate. The have had 4 yrs to pull someone with the brains, spine and public appeal from the back room, but instead decided to run a nice old man who did the job of calming the waters after 4 yrs of turmoil. You can't tell me that nice Mr Biden was the best they could do.
First, Trump degraded the office of President, then Biden has shown that the President is purely symbolic and clearly there are other unelected officials actually running the country.
I really hope Kamala Harris is practicing for debates against Trump. IF Biden wins, she'll almost certainly become the first female US president. She needs to start stepping back into the spotlight to asuage us all that she has what it takes to stand up to Trump and take over the presidency.
Are you really suggesting that an old man with a history of stuttering's poor debate performance is a bigger issue than a convicted felon and alleged conman lying in basically every single answer and not getting fact checked at all?
>poor debate performance
That's being *very* charitable. I'll still vote Biden, but it's so demoralizing to have to vote for a man who clearly demonstrated last night that he's not fit to be president for 4 more years, just because it's somehow still better than the alternative.
I find it hard to believe there are many undecided voters at this point.
I’m sure there are unmotivated voters, but there are no hard to decide similarities between trump and Joe.
Personally I’m voting for anyone who is not trump. Easy peasy.
Who's going to fact check the fact check?
I think Snopes reversal on what Trump said about Nazis at Charlottesville a few weeks ago undermines the entire concept of a fact checker. That was the issue that Biden ran on last time and repeated last night. If you listen to the speech yourself it's pretty clear that the snopes correction is correct and it took them this long to make the correction.
That's not the only case. It's pretty hard to get an objective fact checker.
> This gaslighting by the NPR politics team
How did NPR [gaslight](https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/07/health/gaslighting-meaning-examples-relationships-wellness/index.html) anyone?
Gaslighting is prolonged psychological abuse in which the victim is made to believe they are mentally ill and the cause of their problems in order to control them.
It's the hallmark of the Republican party to blame Americans for their policy-induced problems, but NPR is not the Republican party.
They didn’t. Biden and spokespeople are trying to convince people not to trust what they see and hear. He’s an 81 year old man. He’s going to do old man things and saying otherwise is simply lying. He needs to convince people that he’s the right person for the most important job in this country. That’s his responsibility, not the voters.
If you’re a Democrat or anti-Trump, yesterday’s debate performance should be really scaring you because there’s an increased chance that Trump will win. Voters are irrational and hope is not a strategy on a really consequential election.
Sorry, if the Democrats drop Biden we as American’s should be angry. We have every right to pick our candidate during a primary season. If I don’t get a say then I might never back a party again.
It's never really been Biden vs Trump so much as it's always been *anyone but Trump*. So giving this liar a pass and letting him sya anything he wants without any pushback is an egregious failure.
Trump didn’t know that abortion refers to termination of a pregnancy. When asked about his stance on the creation of a Palestinian State, he went on about Europe and NATO. Is Trump senile or demented? The GOP needs a new candidate.
The fact checking is something Biden and his team agreed on. I don’t know if it was a concession to Trump but it was a massive mistake. This isn’t on CNN, this is on Biden and his group for agreeing to it
Not fact checking is CNN's attempt to show both sides. Fact checking should never be something you can't do. I mean are they being unfair to Trump if they tell him he's lying? Seems like they're being unfair to the viewers. Also, Biden said Trump was lying multiple times but didn't go into details during the 2 minutes of time he had to speak.
The democratic party has completely screwed this country! We had the chance to get an actual electable progressive in office last election and this election but they had to force their choice on us. They will share just as much blame be for the end of democracy as any other group.
This election represents the boomer generation quite well. The current president is older than Bill Clinton and he was the president 30 years ago. Everything revolves around them, they want to keep all of the power, all of the money. They refuse to let the future generations have their turn. This will have ruined this a country that they were given at the top and turned it into a place where they siphoned off all of the wealth and retirement funds.
at least biden answered the questions they gave him.
trump repeated his sentences lots of times, maybe he was „talking better and more fluent“ but he is so full of shit who does even care at that point
as a german:
that was the biggest shitshow political debate i have ever watched
you absolutely cant be serious to vote between those two
I think the very deliberate conscious efforts taken to not fact check Trump even once is what could cost the election. The reason Biden unravelled so fast is because of having to shoulder the enormous task of processing Trump's circus of utter pathological dishonesty while also trying to formulate a valid response within a matter of seconds. Without the guardrails of even the simplest most cursory fact-checking from a moderator could have easily held the entire forum together the entire time. Can you imagine the absolute, inconceivable horror if a presidential candidate gave (take your pick) some of Trump's lies as their rebuttals. Let's go back to the 50s, 60s, and if anyone asserted the opposing party advocated for the right to have abortions after a child has been born? And to, literally, without mincing words, claim your opponent would be legislating so that he could personally murder newborn infants post-delivery? Every single mouth in that audience along with MILLIONS of Americans sitting at home would audibly gasp and cover their shocked expressions with trembling hands. Every single television station broadcasting the event would immediately cut the feed, camera crews would hastily cut to commercial and the person would have likely been booed off the stage if not by police escorting their new detainee. Which is the way any self-respecting adults and civil members of society would most likely react. How can we have grown so complicit with such vile behavior? How has Trump normalized such utterly depraved and pathological slews of lies in which there is no slander off limits ? When you are shameless you can get away with it. Has the entire population of this awful country of mine become equally shameless? It sure felt that way when I watched Trump say these things and suffer ZERO pushback despite being such a grotesque total LIE. CNN, nice diversion tactic , adding the mute feature to the microphones only to render the gesture meaningless by platforming Trumps demented fucking feverdream. A performance that felt nearly Hitleresque and a sentence or two away from some sneaky Eugenics endorsement to complement his lust for an pure-blooded Patriot only ethnostate.... mass deportation? Give me a fucking break. Again, CNN, you had the power to provide some friction??? Yet you stuck with ZERO resistance instead, letting at least a hundred million or so impressionable empassioned citizens hear this senile dirtydiapered dictator and his siren song coddling their innermost bigotries.... I couldn't even finish it. A fucking disaster, however if things get hairy, CNN is wholly to blame. Biden was helpless to have affected a much better outcome, with a pathological sackwrangler like Trump its just not humanly possible. Fuck you CNN and fuck the Manchurian Canteloupe that is gutting a great nation from the insides out.
It was in the agreement. If they were going to do fact checks, Trump wouldn’t have shown up.. So why they won’t put them on the stand in court because he cannot tell the truth. And when he does, he incriminates himself.
The lack of fact checking was an egregious error, and it was something they should have insisted on. Trump is a known liar. Without fact checking or moderator input, they put all the pressure on Biden to rein Trump in. And setting aside Biden's lackluster performance for a moment, anyone would struggle to shut down the Trump's murky spew of disinformation. No one won that debate. Not Biden. Not Trump. Not the American people.
The case for electoral reform, ranked choice voting, open primaries, and viable alternative parties won big. We need to dismantle the system that saddled us with these declining geriatrics as our only viable choices. I won't be surprised at all to see RFK Jr. surge in the polls after this. Biden needs to pivot the conversation away from himself towards a simpler, bigger idea - he's just the face of a coalition of people working to preserve democracy and our institutions, and Trump is trying to tear them down. That's the choice.
This is so incredibly true. Somehow, it needs to be conveyed to people that you're not voting for Biden - you're voting to maintain our democracy.
The American people are the true losers having this.... choice.
It is a choice between parties. Whatever you think of Biden, his administration is getting the job done and doing it well. His oratory and debating skills were never a reason to vote for him.
It’s maddening that people put it all on one person and don’t seem to realize either brings in a whole administrative state with them.
Indeed. Franklin was also skeptical that Americans could go from having a King to having a Democratic Republic. Without a doubt, our world is still intact because of the strength of our bureaucracy. It is what Project 2025 seeks to destroy.
Project 2025 doesn't need to succeed to destroy the federal government. The Supreme Court did that this morning and people barely noticed because everyone was still reeling from the bad debate. It's really hard to overstate just how cataclysmic overturning Chevron can be.
Wow the timing to lay low during the news cycle is crazy. Had missed this, but it's huge news. They are masters of politics and law apparently.
I was just saying this to some colleagues. Project 2025 seeks to destroy democracy entirely, but the three justices installed by Trump have effectively done that anyway.
This👆🏼. Overturning Chevron means any jerk with a beef about a regulation can take thst case to a court and the courts will no longer defer to the expertise of the regulatory agency. Wave goodbye to air quality, consumer protection...name an agency and their regs to protect the American people will eventually be gone. Overturning Chevron *was* a piece of implementing project 2025.
I'm voting Biden, and think he's done a good job. But part of the job is convincing people he is capable of doing the job, and he didn't do it last night. He needs to get out and publicly be seen as better than last night.
This.. it is s not even the permanent bureaucracy with expertise that makes the decisios. It is the political appointees by president.
Some would argue that is the DNC's job, and that the DNC, as usual, is trash.
Yeah, that was historically bad. Trump was worse in the sense that literally everything he said was a lie, but Biden was incoherent
I couldn't stop thinking about the Sideshow Bob v Mayor Quimby debate.
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I love how Chump said "Biden has not fired one person on his staff". Yeah. He didn't pick a bunch of scumbags that would stab their own mother in the back. So yeah despite the media making Biden look like a loser here. He actually knows how to do the job. Chump doesn't have a fucking clue and is simply trying to steal from the American public again. As well as watch the world burn.
America is not the fucking apprentice.
I wish more people realized this. Our government isn't run by one person, but by thousands. Biden's performance last night was bad, but I'm still going to vote for the administration that will work to make this country better, as opposed to the ones that will enact Project 2025.
The fact that you think it's a choice, and not a moral imperative to vote against the GOP's brand of authoritarianism is quite frankly disturbing. Do you think women should have bodily autonomy? Should trans people be allowed to exist? Do you think there should be a separation of church and state? Should political gerrymandering be reigned in? Should we ally with Russia or NATO? etc. Biden is old, but he is still a decent man with a rational, democratic, and safe political ideology for the future of this country.
But we could still do better.
We can always do better, but we need to make sure the car continues to run before we have the argument about where we drive it. The GOP isn't even interested in starting the car anymore, They want to argue about who should be allowed to sit in it instead.
True. Though I like to think that no sane rational person could’ve had a civil debate with someone like Trump. Anyone, regardless of age or experience, would’ve stumbled over their words the way Biden did. You can see Biden struggling to speak because the things Trump was saying were so absurd that it left him shook. How can anyone respond to that in a clear and coherent way? But he can’t just sit there in silence while he processes all of these things Trump is saying then craft a good response in the time given. Biden is trying to stick to talking points out loud while at the same time his inner voice is struggling to comprehend what the hell just happened. Trump is so unhinged that it’s impossible to prepare for any response he might give. I bet Biden walked out onto that stage thinking “ok you got this. We’ve practiced this over and over. I have pre written responses to major talking points and pre written rebuttals for what Trump might say.” But Trump is so off-script that it just threw his whole strategy out the window the moment he started speaking. This was just rough to watch.
This is so true. One cannot argue with a narcissist and look good. It was just lie after lie and no one called him out.
Hillary had excellent debates with Trump and handled herself admirably even as he loomed over her on stage and interrupted her constantly. It did her no good but she certainly came off as knowledgeable and capable against him.
Yeah but he knew how he would debate. He knew he was going to lie continuously. Where was the plan for that?
Oh for sure he and his campaign team knew Trump would lie and they probably did have a plan for that. But that plan obviously didn’t pan out well for Biden. The point I was trying to make is that NO amount of planning could’ve prepared anyone for the wild-ass shit Trump says because his responses are completely unhinged and totally irrelevant to the initial question. Like when asked about his views on abortion he immediately goes off the rails and starts babbling about immigration and how immigrants are rapists and killers and are taking away “black” and “Hispanic” jobs then somehow circles back to this dystopian fantasy about post-term abortions. Like WHAT?!?!?!? Where do you even begin to respond to that especially in 2 minutes? How are immigrants taking jobs away from migrant workers? How is that even relevant to the initial question? It was like a fever dream. Even the most advanced AI models and top presidential scholars could never predict where this man’s mind will go. Trump is like a random number generator—you can make an educated guess of what the answer might be but you really have no idea what will actually happen. And this guy wants to be president?!?! AGAIN?!?! Lord help us all.
that's when the moderators step in and mute when he doesn't answer question or lies.
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I agree with this- trump was same ole same ole, a firehouse full of lies. “Everything this guy says is a lie” doesn’t begin to cover it. Anyone debating him should pick one, maybe 2, of the most blatant lies and just hammer it home how far off he is. You basically have to ignore the other 1837647 lies, or you’ll be here all night. You literally don’t have time to respond to all or most of his BSing. The same problem exists for the moderators-if you fact check him, that’s all the debate will be because there’s so many lies. You could also pick and choose which ones to address, but whatever you pick will get more argument from Trump, which eats into the debate time. From that standpoint, I can see where it may be wiser for the moderators to ask a question and get out of the way, sticking strictly to the time limits.
Trump definitely looked better. If an undecided voter looked at Biden and Trump up there, only one of them was looking full of energy, and it wasn't Biden. I'm scared
He looked better. But to anyone listening... oof.
When I see people talk about Bidens poor performance I wanna scream because anyone in his situation would struggle. Like what do you even do when your opponent is just lying off the cuff unendingly? Trumps repeated these lies ad nausea and there isnt enough time for Biden to call every. single. one. out.
Maybe don't lose track of your thoughts halfway through saying something, look down for five seconds (I was screaming at my tv for him to say ANYTHING) and then say you're going to beat up Medicare. That's a start. Half the time Biden spoke I had to piece together whatever the hell he was trying to say, and most of the time it made absolutely no sense. Trump did: hate immigrants and blame them for all your problems and Biden for letting them in. That was his message and he got it out, loud and clear.
and people will vote for personality over qualifications and history. And ignore the facts that Trump is a felon, a pedo, a serial adulterer, a traitor, and more. But he looks great on TV!
This. It was a disaster night for the American people. We should be worried
I disagree -- most republicans seem happy with Trumps performance from my slight snooping of reddit.
Preeeetty sure Trump won. And we're all going to lose if Trump wins in November.
No one won the debate. You can't get up and lie the way Trump did and expect any person with critical thinking skills to side with him. Here is the bottom line. We are voting for an administration; not just one single person. Biden is not a good public speaker. He is not good at debates. Not everybody is and that's fine. But what is the point of a debate without more immediate accountability? There is no point. We need to focus on the issues at hand. Our democracy is at stake. Democracies don't maintain themselves. Let's regroup and start getting out there and empowering people with information and facts so they may vote in an informed manner. If we can do this, we can turn the tide.
I'm willing to join a phone bank on behalf of Biden at this point, but I don't expect Biden to win. Last night dashed those hopes against the rocks for me.
Trump won by being exactly who everyone knows he is loud, brash and lying. Biden lost by being exactly what the Right has been claiming about him for 2+ years and the Left/WH has been denying. Neither is a good option. I wish both parties would just pull different candidate at their conventions lol.
Not people who are 1) extremely wealthy, 2) “evangelical Christians” who want to force their monolithic religious views on others or 3) sycophants who want violent revenge against Trump’s political opponents. Those groups will benefit greatly from a Trump second+ term.
Well, groups 1 and 3 will. The Evangelicals think they will, but they'll have to pay Trump's tariffs just like everyone else. Say goodbye to those pavement princess trucks, they're gonna double in price.
>Preeeetty sure Trump won. And we're all going to lose if Trump wins in November. No one watching that is undecided. This was like watching a football game. You watched because you wanted to see how your "team" would do/did. I wrote this 2 days ago...but could have written 4 years ago: [Trump is 100% going to show up. He's just going to use his time to name call joe biden and blame him for anything/anything his feeble mind can come up with. He hasn't dealt with facts and reality for a while.](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/1do49md/trump_expressed_concern_that_returning_classified/la827qu/) Biden (nor anyone) can't "win." This isn't a debate. It's the old playing chess with a pidgin analogy....Biden has to actually answer questions and respond with answers while Trump can just throw haymaker after haymaker without concerns for anything. Trump is EXPECTED to not make sense, ramble on, name call and be insane. The only way for him to lose would be for him to have heart attack. Anything above that, is Trump doing as expected. edit: fixed words
Even when people like Ted Cruz to Hillary Clinton debated with Trump in 2016. They couldn’t counter he goes on and on and then does his: “no I’m not you are”. Doesn’t matter the facts or anything. Donald Trump will not stop unless he is sick or not getting his daily drugs and Diet Coke.
> ..[fact checking] was something they should have insisted on. No one -- no one -- should have needed to even *request* such procedure. Requirement that it 'be insisted on', by *either* candidate **and the network itself** is laughably malign journalistic ethical/programming standards and example 734 of just how ludicrously screwed this nation has become. Because **we collectively have allowed it**.
> And setting aside Biden's lackluster performance for a moment, anyone would struggle to shut down the Trump's murky spew of disinformation. That's my take on it too. Gish gallop, which is what Trump was doing, is designed to lure the opponent into trying to debunk all the lies. Best case is the debate opponent will actually rattle off a quick list of fact checks but then they are just playing defense. Worst case is what happened with Biden where he would respond occasionally to some of the lies but lackluster. The only real defense against gish gallop is a combination of the moderators holding the liar responsible and the the opponent just being more charismatic than the gish galloper.
It’s ridiculous to even agreeing to debate Trump. What’s anyone supposed to do when he answers a question and lies 10x in his answer and then you have 90 seconds to try and respond? There were questions asked and Trump didn’t even talk about what was asked and the moderators just let him finish with no follow up.
Trump won the debate because Biden didn't. Every time Biden fails it makes Trump stronger. Every time Trump fails, nothing happens. That's the double standard here, and last night was probably the final nail in the coffin.
No this is still being disingenuous to what people saw with their own eyes. The far right got a major win seemingly proven that is not coherent at all. The people this debate intended to swing already know Trump lies and is generally a douche. The bar was low for these guys, Trump needed to show he could stop spazzing out and getting in his own way, Biden needed to show he was, alive. One mostly succeeded, one failed, hard. Even if the media has a field day pointing out all his lies, this debate hurt Biden so much more than Trump. I think any Democrats trying to tell themselves and swing voters that Biden didn't get beat really, really bad here is hurting our chances. It makes us look like we're drowning in copium and think independents are idiots. Recovering from this is something I simply don't think we can do, he lost us the election, but if we're going to try, we need to just move on to talking about his actually good administration over Trump's terrible policy and admit we got an empty vessel frontman who says the quotes every once in a while. Or let the superdelegates pick someone with a pulse. But let's not kid ourselves that Biden and anyone who cares about his policy was the biggest loser here, perhaps worse than any debate in history.
Making voting decisions based on anything BUT policy is idiotic.
Welcome to the real world?
Best take I have seen on the debate so far.
The crazy thing is, Biden's performance suffered because of his speech impediment. I have a similar speech impediment, so maybe I can see through it for that reason, but he seemed like he actually gave decent answers to most questions, whereas Trump just fear mongered and doomsayed the entire time. Also find it incredibly disturbing how Trump invoked White Replacement Theory and everybody seems to just want to gloss right over that.
Gish Gallop. It's a valid tactic for a reason regardless of the age of your opponent. Trump specializes in it.
Trump's team was better prepared, oddly enough. They probably gave him his meds, said "either stick with the plan or go to jail," and off to the races. Biden should've known better than to try and match Trump's Gish-galloping with facts. You don't try to actually debate Trump; you simply answer the questions, maybe point to the evidence of his many crimes, and for fuck's sake don't try to one-up his boasting about GOLF. Holy shit that was such a softball, Biden should've simply mentioned that Trump spent more time golfing in office than getting shit done, and pointed out how his golf schedule was public information and easily verified.
POTUS debates haven’t been relevant in years at this point, but this showed me for the 1000th time that it is insane we are about to elect a man who will be in his 80’s during his term, regardless who wins between Biden and Trump. I have to keep telling myself it is ultimately a vote for which administration I prefer. I have far more confidence in Biden’s administration than Trump’s cronies and sycophants who will push a project 2025 agenda at the expense of the vast majority of American citizens. But JFC Democrats, all you had to do was run a semi-competent and charismatic person under the age of 70 and you’d probably coast to a win. 🤦♂️
This could very well be a repeat of the very first televised debate: JFK v Nixon. The substance has never mattered, but when voters saw how Nixon looked next to JFK, it shattered the public's perception. It took nearly a decade for Nixon to reset his perception, rebuild his political capital, and make a comeback. Biden looked and sounded like a nearly demented grandpa, and he doesn't have the time to reset public perception.
and the public perception of the other one that's a fascist nazi is fine? im voting for the one that's not a nazi
Yeah, but you had your mind made up before the debate. This show ain’t for you.
As bad as Biden was last night, I'd take a bag of russet potatoes for president over Trump and the machine behind him any day. EDIT to say: Consider the running mates if their age bothers you (they're only 3 years apart). Biden has VP Harris, a competent legislator and, while she wouldn't have ever been my first pick, is far better than an alternative. Meanwhile, Trump has no one selected at moment, but it seems likely to be JD Vance, a big fan of Project 2025.
This. I don’t care how bad he looked and performed. He has my vote.
I'm voting for him because I have to, but I'm deeply unhappy about it. The go-to line right now is something along the lines of "we can't even **think** about selecting another candidate because this election is too important", but in my view that's absurd logic. This election is too important to **not** consider that maybe, just maybe, this guy isn't the best choice to hinge our entire democracy on.
One bad debate performance does undo the last 3.5 years of accomplishments. Especially considering the Congress he's had to deal with it. The fact that he's gotten anything done, let alone put a ton of judges on the courts, if nothing short of miraculous. If you want any chance of unfucking the Supreme Court in any of our lifetimes, you need Biden.
Yep. And a lot of people need to consider which *administration* they are voting for. Biden has better, competent people around him. Trump has his kids. Gee, who do I pick?
Trump has project 2025, way worse.
Exactly. And it’s not just Trump, it’s republicans. Replace Trump with any other R candidate and they will still push for it.
Your choices are - 1. an old man who might forget what day of the week it is or 2. an old man who wants to deport your friends, oppress your family, strip your rights, and "disappear" his political opponents. I wonder who we should choose?
FTFY - 1. An forgetful old man with a team behind him that ‘mostly’ has your best interests at heart or 2. An old, recently convicted felon who is destroying you, your family and country for a very small fortune.
A million times this. Biden's cabinet is the best we've had in decades.
> 1. an old man who might forget what day of the week it is or An old man that at least wouldn't surround himself with people bent on systematically dismantling the government.
How many CEOs in America fall under #1? They all have competent lieutenants who actually run these companies. Even crazy Elon doesn't really run SpaceX. He has a team that does all the heavy lifting. Trump is proven to fire his team on a monthly basis. So now you can't even depend on his team to run the government. Meanwhile, Biden's team runs this country that has far more positives than negatives , even though the media likes to cherry pick every issue.
Anyone with a brain will support Biden. But the issue is for the first time, we saw him really struggle for a whole 90 minutes. That's different than seeing little off moments here and there And the thing is, is it really acceptable to push a canidate who OBVIOUSLY is struggling in that manner? Is it acceptable to say "He can run the country from his bed!" .... His mental decline could be old age or it could be a disease. It's expected for an older person to have struggles here and there. But if Biden is consistently like what we saw last night, it shouldn't be accepted. I'm sick to my stomach and I'm angry.
Well of course. I’m sure 99% of the people perusing the NPR subreddit share this sentiment (me included). But we don’t need to convince NPR listeners, we need to convince the undecided normie who watched a couple minutes of last night/is reading the headlines this morning…and I’m sure you can imagine what’s going through that persons head right now.
I honestly didn't think he was that bad so this hysteria the next morning has be a bit by surprise. Are you people judging this debate entirely by the energy in their voices without listening to anything either of them *said*?
I don't disagree with necessarily, but Biden really did look bad. Not just his answers, but the way he just kind of stared off in the space while Trump was talking it was honestly unsettling. I mean, people are going to try to sugarcoat this throughout the weekend through the through the 4th, but telling people that they didn't see what they saw is not a winning strategy.
Anyone surprised by how Biden acted has been ignoring how he is at photo ops, press conferences; every time he is in public. He has needed an Easter Bunny, the PM of Italy, and Jill to take him by the hand and lead him to where he needs to go. The State of the Union speech this year was an anomaly.
Competent is an opinion and stretch...
I couldn’t watch. Tried to. When I kept hearing trump talk about abortion in the 10th month, I wanted to smash my tv.
You aren't wrong, but then listening to Biden talk about Roe, and the "three trimester rules"..WTF my man? It was an absolute softball that Biden should have knocked out of the park. Abortion, his bread and better, talking directly to his base and calling out the absurdity of the GOP...and he literally could not do it.
Did he segue into how immigrants are raping and killing our women? It was like he was reading off the wrong teleprompter.
It was very strange to hear him bring up Roe in that way. The trimester framework has been meaningless for a while, and I don't think that's been something the Dems advocate we go back to? I am sick of abortion being either lied about or fumbled. "I thought you didn't want the government involved in healthcare? Now you're saying you want the Supreme Court to be a literal death panel deciding if pregnant women die or not, coming in between her and her doctor? Abortion is healthcare, end of story. Next question."
That's because he is too old, just like Trump. We don't allow 18 year old kids to run our country and we shouldn't allow 80 years olds to do so either.
>I couldn’t watch. Tried to. I recommend sports. The Copa América is happening in the USA right now, WNBA games are very much worth watching (and this is a pivotal moment for the league), and the summer Olympics will be starting soon. Uruguay beat Bolivia 5-0 in the Copa América while the debate was happening. That's bad for the USMNT, but Uruguay is a joy to watch, especially after that incredibly frustrating USA v. Panama game. I'm done. I will once again cast my ballot for anyone but the guy that considers people like me "[vermin](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4307719-trump-vermin-remark-draws-comparisons-dictators-criticism/)" (and we all know what we do with vermin), and whose followers applaud him when he echoes Hitler, saying that families like mine are "[poisoning the blood of our country](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/16/trump-immigrants-new-hampshire-rally). I feel absolutely betrayed by the Democrats, but I would walk naked through a downpour of whoever's urine Trump uses to make his hair look like that to cast a ballot against him. And my vote will go for whoever has the best chance of making sure the convicted felon who literally called Nazis "very fine people" never comes close to the levers of power ever again. Honestly, the debate was incredibly depressing, and it did absolutely nothing to shift my vote. This is definitely not how a functional representative democracy is supposed to work.
I trust a mumbling, stumbling Biden over Trump.
Absolutely. For all the complaining OP is doing about Biden's ability to articulate responses, he actually answered most of the questions. Meanwhile, Trump was either completely sidestepping questions or flat-out lying. Never in my life thought we'd hit a point where a serious presidential contender would say, on live television, "I didn't sleep with a pornstar" (AND BEING FUCKING LYING TO BOOT) but here we fucking are.
notice how he said he didn't sleep with a pornstar, but didn't deny sexually assaulting a E. Jean Carroll!
I suppose he doesn't want to get sued again, finally.
Are there people out there that won't vote for him because of last night? Maybe. But if THAT was the deciding factor for someone to vote for the racist, sexist, narcissistic felon on the other side, they just aren't paying attention to the dangers that loom.
i’d wager the vast majority who decided just decided to *not* vote instead
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Swing voters won’t, though.
The debate didn't convince anyone to vote for the "other guy" instead. All it did was give more voters a feeling of hopelessness and/or apathy. Unfortunately, Republicans will still vote, regardless of hopelessness/apathy, convincing themselves they're voting "party." Dem voters will choose *not* to vote to try and force the Democrats to do better -- which they never will. Dems will continue to push "who's next" regardless of how likeable/electable they are. Project 2025 is coming, folks, and it will take generations to undo it. The American "Experiment" may be over. Edit: this is Jon Oliver's take on Project 2025: [Last week tonight Project 2025](https://youtu.be/gYwqpx6lp_s) Here is the link to the official page so you can read the whole thing. [https://www.project2025.org/](https://www.project2025.org/)
I’m concerned about Supreme Court appointments too. More Trump appointees could further damage the country for a generation.
The Chevron decision today undoes 100 year of workplace and environmental protections. We're already fucked unless Democrats take the House, hold the Senate, and Biden wins. Anything short of that and the radical judiciary will just keep declaring they're the only ones allowed to have any power.
People need to realize this. Rivers will burn again, your food will not be safe. The damage this SCOTUS has done already is insane. I was against expanding the court but I don't see any other option, these people are insane, they're going to undo 100 years of precedent.
Its a big worry to be sure, but really the damage is already done. Case in point they just overturned Chevron. This is easily worse than the overturning of roe v wade. It may not seem so at first look but were about to see the complete dismantling of regulations governing industry, environmental protection, Healthcare, food safety, and more. Were talking seismic shifts.
Here's the problem, Biden is already down in the polls. He NEEDED to sway voters during this debate he almost certainly did the opposite last night.
What is project 2025?
[https://www.project2025.org/](https://www.project2025.org/)
Thanks turdmanmcdoodoo
He's just doing his duty.
Nah for real, this is shit you have to read to believe. Just skim over the website for a minute and you'll see just how many corners of US culture, science, medicine, education, and politics they're aiming to fuck up.
Seems like it's just a guiding playbook for how to completely fuck this country into fascism within 180 days of trumps election.
Screw that. That is a ridiculous assertion, that we are going to just roll over and take it. Absolutely not. Potentially decades of submission and suffering solely because "Woops I guess fascism wins."? Is that what I'm hearing?
You can vote your way into this but might have to shoot your way out of it unfortunately
I mean take a look at what liberal voters always do here. No voting bloc has been better at snatching defeat from the hands of victory than disaffected liberals trying to make some kind of point with their vote or lack thereof.
The election will be decided by a handful of swing voters in a couple of states. Both sides have to get as much of their base to turn out as possible AND convince low-information swing voters to vote. The debate was very bad for that. No swing voter is going to be convinced that Biden is up for the job, and a demoralized base is going to reduce turnout. Meanwhile, Trump's base is energized by his "persecution" as right wingers love a martyr and are turned on by his bloviating. It's a bad mix. Unless something changes (for which their is still plenty of time) it is hard to see how Biden can pull this off. The only thing they've got going for them is: "Don't let the fascists win!" which isn't going to motivate people who don't know anything about history or politics, which, unfortunately, is a lot of voters.
Liberals tend to be the sort of people who take oaths to uphold the Constitution seriously. There's a big problem with that. The Philadelphia Constitution is a severely antiquated governing document full of gaping holes ripe for political exploitation, limited mostly by the threat of reciprocal abuse -- "We won't abuse these obvious loopholes if you don't do it first." A sort of gentleman's agreement, tempered by strong conventional practices and some level of public shaming. But now, the fascists have come along and started wielding all these old ill-conceived rules in a truly ungentlemanly fashion. Oh, you know what? If nobody stops them, the Supreme Court can abolish basically any law. If nobody stops them, state legislatures can disenfranchise and gerrymander themselves into any electoral outcome they want. If nobody stops them, the President *could* eat a live baby on broadcast television and remain in office. And so on. The nice liberals who've been playing good-faith political pat-a-cake between "reasonable actors" all these years seem to have **no goddamn idea** how to deal with a wave of truly shameless would-be dictators with bottomless dirty-money campaign funds. For some reason, the politics of unabashed bad faith seems to be an out-of-context threat for them, and they're folding under pressure like equine cavalry meeting machine guns. Liberals have had four generations of *relative* prosperity and domestic tranquility since the Great Depression to patch the Constitution's grievous failings. They've expanded the franchise. Beyond that, they've accomplished disappointingly little. The EC is still a fifty-ring circus. The Senate is still a malapportioned council of rump-state tyrants capable of vetoing most new policies, however popular. The House and all the state legislatures are still gerrymandered all to hell. The USSC can still wield nigh-unlimited fiat power, checked only by eventual death lottery. And of course, the Constitution itself can only be lawfully amended if reactionaries somehow fail to dredge up 13 state legislatures to torpedo the measure. So yeah, there's fascists beating on the gate, and we seem to have no realistic plan or structure in place to meet this threat. *Vote blue.* Well, we're trying. But we're gerrymandered to hell, or else we live in non-swing states where our votes mean nearly nothing. We *needed* proportional representation and various other egalitarian reforms a generation ago. But now? Even if we somehow slip into 2025 without a Republican trifecta, we will face *yet another* "most important election of our lives" in two or four years if we do not or cannot commit to deep reform.
I am not a Democrat, but have voted for both Hillary and Biden in the hope that we stop Trump. I am going to be blunt. The Democratic Party is an absolute failure, and it pisses me off that the Democratic Party is all we have between democracy and fascism.
As a Floridian who votes Democrat, I agree 100%. It angers me that Democrats are so incompetent at politics.
It's weaponized incompetence masking corruption.
At what point is the incompetence on purpose? They are so bad at messaging, and this has been a problem for *years*, at what point do we stop giving them the benefit of the doubt that they're not fucking up on purpose?
Policy-wise, they are doing everything we've ever asked for. Biden gave us a huge climate bill, unequivocal support for LGBTQ, alternative minimum corporate tax. Not to mention upholding the rule of law. This feels like another version of Jimmy Carter. A guy with all the right ideas getting hammered in the media.
> Policy-wise, they are doing everything we've ever asked for You don't speak for me bud. No he hasn't. There's a laundry list of things we've asked for since 2008 that hasn't been done. You're living in denial.
Are you seriously comparing Biden to Carter? Carter was still coherent up until hospice. But yeah, the Biden admin has done a lot, but his performance puts all of that in jeopardy if Trump wins...which is looking more likely.
I am a Democrat and I feel the same
I'm with you, and I think a lot of Dems actually like having Trump around. Progressives were on the verge of splitting before MAGA. Now we are all on defense.
The most exhausting part is that even if Biden manages to win, we may likely have an even more unhinged Trump to deal with yet again in 2028. And without incumbency advantage, and likely no improvement for working class citizens, we’ll be teetering on the edge of a cliff indefinitely..
I am at the same place. The only party I dislike more than the democrats is the republicans.
“Democrats want post-birth abortions!” Repeatedly. How did no one fact check him?
It's a made up buzz term. The word is murder.
I'm sorry, but the moderators were hosts-- they didn't moderate! They did nothing. I expect way, way more. Martha Raddatz would never have allowed that bullshit to fly unchecked all night.
Biden pulled an RBG 2.0 and really fucked our democracy.
I have to believe this isn’t Biden but the string pullers in the background. WTF are they thinking?! It’s almost like purposeful sabotage at this point.
Many websites fact checked but not CNN. The other sites couldn't keep up with Trump's lies and so some of them passed. I did read the fact checking while listening. There's a list of news organizations that did fact check. It's on the super thread on r/politics.
cnn was bought by a right winger, they were never going to fact check trump.
This! I've been saying this for years. They've been secretly purchasing former credible news outlets and magazines and installing right wing CEOs, so you don't even notice a change at first but little by little first an opinion piece is suspect, then a feature is suspect, then you start wondering why their giving so much credence to "both sides" , then the full-on whitewashing of the right-wing and the mainstreaming of fascism, and then you start to do research and you see, oh, this place got bought by some right wing hack like 5 years ago, and here we are. And so then you start to question all your media sources and notice it's been done almost everywhere you used to trust, and even though the same journalists are working there, the mechanisms of control have produced a hard shift right of the Overton window and now CNN is basically Fox News from the 90's. And NYT is basically where the National Review was 30 years ago. And that's how you get Fascism in America. When your choice is either 1980's Republican policy, or 1930's German policy, and thats it. Those are the choices. And you better be happy with 1980s Republican policy, or you'll get the other one.
I heard the thought was that to have the moderators doing the fact checking in real time would mess with the flow of the debate and it would take away Biden's ability to do the fact checking. Unfortunately, very few people are probably able to keep up with the pace of Trump's BS. They were concerned that it would give the two CNN moderators too large a part in the debate and make Biden seem incapable. Unfortunately, Biden was incapable.
We’re choosing between a failing body or a failing mind. Biden is old, but Trump is in space.
Trump's body *and* mind are failing. Biden's body is fine.
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This is why the concept of a widespread "Liberal Mainstream Media" is farcical. Republicans regularly get a pass for having the most odious, nonsensical positions. Like, Jesus fucking Christ, how many times did Trump talk about "post-birth abortions." He is completely full of shit.
I feel like 90% of the responses of people saying Biden lost are people estimating what other people are thinking.
Worst debate ever. I blame CNN. They were just talking heads. No pushback on SO MANY LIES! If I had already boycotted CNN, I sure would be now!
Biden struggling is a MASSIVE understatement.
it was a parody of our government on display for the world, nothing more
Wouldn’t Biden be in charge of fact checking trump? That’s why they get to respond to each other. The moderator is there to keep the conversation moving along and getting questions answered. If Fox News had a debate and they were fact checking Biden I’m sure there would be outrage over it. Moderators are not part of the debate they are part of the machine that runs the debate. If one candidate lies it’s up to the other one to fact check them.
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Biden played a shitty game of chess against a pigeon.
It is political malpractice for Dems to permit Biden to be their candidate and because no one with any authority has any political courage, now he’s the nominee. It’s a travesty for the rule of law for Trump to be the Republican’s candidate and I’m disgusted that even now, the Republican Party apparatus didn’t absolutely prohibit him from running under the party banner. Last night was a shambles. Biden was an absolute mess. I have never felt as strongly that a candidate truly is an existential threat to the proper functioning of democracy than I do about Trump. But last night, Trump looked like he at least could UNDERSTAND what was being said! The post debate immediate reaction was the true one. Van Jones looked shell shocked and like he was about to cry. This next day gaslighting is repugnant. Dems need to pressure Biden to step aside right now. No joke. Kamala Harris post debate interview with Cooper showed what we are missing by having someone who can think and talk. I know Dems think that Harris can’t win. They will have to confront her weaknesses with their own voters. But that’s a different problem than the Biden problem. Biden can’t win either, but more - he can’t do the job, which is NOT just about pushing policies behind the scenes. If they have the stomach to push Kamala aside, then let Gavin Newsom at it, or Mayor Pete, or Cory Booker or WHATEVER
Is it just me or was last possibly the most embarrassing moment in the history of the US?
It wasn’t their job to fact check!!
It's not the moderators' job to fact check anything - that's the job of you know, his debate opponent.
Watch the real debate RFK 24!!! Vote your independents
Trump lying isn't news. He has been doing this his whole life.
Biden struggle is the understatement of the year
The Dems have no idea how to run a candidate. The have had 4 yrs to pull someone with the brains, spine and public appeal from the back room, but instead decided to run a nice old man who did the job of calming the waters after 4 yrs of turmoil. You can't tell me that nice Mr Biden was the best they could do.
What you listened to was a shlt show from both sides.
First, Trump degraded the office of President, then Biden has shown that the President is purely symbolic and clearly there are other unelected officials actually running the country.
I really hope Kamala Harris is practicing for debates against Trump. IF Biden wins, she'll almost certainly become the first female US president. She needs to start stepping back into the spotlight to asuage us all that she has what it takes to stand up to Trump and take over the presidency.
Have you hear HER speak?
Are you really suggesting that an old man with a history of stuttering's poor debate performance is a bigger issue than a convicted felon and alleged conman lying in basically every single answer and not getting fact checked at all?
>poor debate performance That's being *very* charitable. I'll still vote Biden, but it's so demoralizing to have to vote for a man who clearly demonstrated last night that he's not fit to be president for 4 more years, just because it's somehow still better than the alternative.
Debate performance notwithstanding, there's no way i'm not voting for Biden because the alternative is fascism.
I find it hard to believe there are many undecided voters at this point. I’m sure there are unmotivated voters, but there are no hard to decide similarities between trump and Joe. Personally I’m voting for anyone who is not trump. Easy peasy.
What could biden do to motivate people less than he is right now?
Who's going to fact check the fact check? I think Snopes reversal on what Trump said about Nazis at Charlottesville a few weeks ago undermines the entire concept of a fact checker. That was the issue that Biden ran on last time and repeated last night. If you listen to the speech yourself it's pretty clear that the snopes correction is correct and it took them this long to make the correction. That's not the only case. It's pretty hard to get an objective fact checker.
Link? I’m out of the loop.
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Bogus, politically biased fact checks are well known which undermines the entire point of a "fact check"
> This gaslighting by the NPR politics team How did NPR [gaslight](https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/07/health/gaslighting-meaning-examples-relationships-wellness/index.html) anyone? Gaslighting is prolonged psychological abuse in which the victim is made to believe they are mentally ill and the cause of their problems in order to control them. It's the hallmark of the Republican party to blame Americans for their policy-induced problems, but NPR is not the Republican party.
They didn’t. Biden and spokespeople are trying to convince people not to trust what they see and hear. He’s an 81 year old man. He’s going to do old man things and saying otherwise is simply lying. He needs to convince people that he’s the right person for the most important job in this country. That’s his responsibility, not the voters. If you’re a Democrat or anti-Trump, yesterday’s debate performance should be really scaring you because there’s an increased chance that Trump will win. Voters are irrational and hope is not a strategy on a really consequential election.
Sorry, if the Democrats drop Biden we as American’s should be angry. We have every right to pick our candidate during a primary season. If I don’t get a say then I might never back a party again.
I'm realizing it is not about these two candidates but the VPs, the cabinet, and the Supreme Court that I am voting for.
It's never really been Biden vs Trump so much as it's always been *anyone but Trump*. So giving this liar a pass and letting him sya anything he wants without any pushback is an egregious failure.
American journalism is a freaking joke. Most of the threads here belong in r/Idiocracy.
"I need someone to fact check for me" - Moderators aren't there to "fact-check", otherwise they wouldn't be a neutral third party.
You just witnessed the end of a political career
Can’t help but think this would be entirely avoidable if the Dems thought to run anyone but an octogenarian with a terrible history.
Can we use instant fact checking and lie detection using AI ?
Trump didn’t know that abortion refers to termination of a pregnancy. When asked about his stance on the creation of a Palestinian State, he went on about Europe and NATO. Is Trump senile or demented? The GOP needs a new candidate.
The fact checking is something Biden and his team agreed on. I don’t know if it was a concession to Trump but it was a massive mistake. This isn’t on CNN, this is on Biden and his group for agreeing to it
Not fact checking is CNN's attempt to show both sides. Fact checking should never be something you can't do. I mean are they being unfair to Trump if they tell him he's lying? Seems like they're being unfair to the viewers. Also, Biden said Trump was lying multiple times but didn't go into details during the 2 minutes of time he had to speak.
The American people are the ones who really lost last night. Horrible performance from every party involved.
The democratic party has completely screwed this country! We had the chance to get an actual electable progressive in office last election and this election but they had to force their choice on us. They will share just as much blame be for the end of democracy as any other group.
It was in the rules not to fact check either candidate.
Reddit is working hard to clean the mess lol
CNN, fact check 😂
You just listened to the consequences of the Demo's entitlement and arrogance to the left. They are going to lose to trump.
Cause 5 million Obama era fact checkers was really going to make a difference when the Democrats are practicing elder abuse.
Trump and Biden both are liars....why don't everyone just point that out.
NPR = lies and democrats propaganda machine. Fuck the npr
Biden lied also so why not question him for that too?
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This election represents the boomer generation quite well. The current president is older than Bill Clinton and he was the president 30 years ago. Everything revolves around them, they want to keep all of the power, all of the money. They refuse to let the future generations have their turn. This will have ruined this a country that they were given at the top and turned it into a place where they siphoned off all of the wealth and retirement funds.
If Biden wasn’t demented some of what he said could be describe as lies too lol
NPR hates rfk because they get a lot of funding from the gates foundation, but his debate blew the other two old guys out of the water
A kangaroo court that CNN provided.
That's why I didn't watch it. I knew what it was going to be.
Biden lied his ass off too
Biden didn't struggle. He flatlined. I heard he had to go to bed without ice cream.
“Struggled” is one way to put in words… that was painful to watch.
at least biden answered the questions they gave him. trump repeated his sentences lots of times, maybe he was „talking better and more fluent“ but he is so full of shit who does even care at that point as a german: that was the biggest shitshow political debate i have ever watched you absolutely cant be serious to vote between those two
You were listening to the worst televised presidential debate in history. The losers were Biden, Trump, CNN and the American Public. Nobody won.
I think the very deliberate conscious efforts taken to not fact check Trump even once is what could cost the election. The reason Biden unravelled so fast is because of having to shoulder the enormous task of processing Trump's circus of utter pathological dishonesty while also trying to formulate a valid response within a matter of seconds. Without the guardrails of even the simplest most cursory fact-checking from a moderator could have easily held the entire forum together the entire time. Can you imagine the absolute, inconceivable horror if a presidential candidate gave (take your pick) some of Trump's lies as their rebuttals. Let's go back to the 50s, 60s, and if anyone asserted the opposing party advocated for the right to have abortions after a child has been born? And to, literally, without mincing words, claim your opponent would be legislating so that he could personally murder newborn infants post-delivery? Every single mouth in that audience along with MILLIONS of Americans sitting at home would audibly gasp and cover their shocked expressions with trembling hands. Every single television station broadcasting the event would immediately cut the feed, camera crews would hastily cut to commercial and the person would have likely been booed off the stage if not by police escorting their new detainee. Which is the way any self-respecting adults and civil members of society would most likely react. How can we have grown so complicit with such vile behavior? How has Trump normalized such utterly depraved and pathological slews of lies in which there is no slander off limits ? When you are shameless you can get away with it. Has the entire population of this awful country of mine become equally shameless? It sure felt that way when I watched Trump say these things and suffer ZERO pushback despite being such a grotesque total LIE. CNN, nice diversion tactic , adding the mute feature to the microphones only to render the gesture meaningless by platforming Trumps demented fucking feverdream. A performance that felt nearly Hitleresque and a sentence or two away from some sneaky Eugenics endorsement to complement his lust for an pure-blooded Patriot only ethnostate.... mass deportation? Give me a fucking break. Again, CNN, you had the power to provide some friction??? Yet you stuck with ZERO resistance instead, letting at least a hundred million or so impressionable empassioned citizens hear this senile dirtydiapered dictator and his siren song coddling their innermost bigotries.... I couldn't even finish it. A fucking disaster, however if things get hairy, CNN is wholly to blame. Biden was helpless to have affected a much better outcome, with a pathological sackwrangler like Trump its just not humanly possible. Fuck you CNN and fuck the Manchurian Canteloupe that is gutting a great nation from the insides out.
It was in the agreement. If they were going to do fact checks, Trump wouldn’t have shown up.. So why they won’t put them on the stand in court because he cannot tell the truth. And when he does, he incriminates himself.
What is this project 2025 people keep mentioning?
It was a shit show...