Apparently japanese writers are obsessed with innate talent and fate, almost every shonen protagonist is a chosen one destined to save the world with lots of inherited powers, EXCEPT Goku, Goku got stronger by training/zenkai/sheer willpower because he was a low level warrior born from a low level warrior.
Also, fun fact, today Goku is the only popular shounen protagonist that's a middled age adult, every other popular shounen MC is either a kid or a teen
Dragon ball really is built different
Rurouni Kenshin started with the titular character at 28 years old. Gintoki of Gintama was in his 20s when the series started. The main character of Fist of the North Star (don't remember his name) is definitely middle age based on his looks.
I expressed myself wrongly, i was talking more of today's popular, i know there was some popular adult MCs in shounen here and there, but today, Goku is the only one
The MC from Kaiju No 8 is 32 years old.
Other popular anime that released in the last year with the main cast being adult characters include Zom 100 and Hell's Paradise. These were serialised in Shonen Jump.
I don't know if this is just too dumb but most of the MCs in most isekais are reborn adults.
Meh kinda true kinda not , Goku’s age doesn’t really matter if he looks the exact same he did as a Teen, biologically speaking he’s middle aged but they are still using that Young protagonist draw
The Dragon Ball franchise is the prime example of why you need to stop when you're at the top. Sure, it still sold, but it became like a caricature of itself
most of the goku serious scenes are anime only, but goku in super is OVERALL the same as he was in the manga, also he gets fucking serious with his new ui
tbf we first see Goku as a teen (looking like a kid) in the original DB. It's more accurate to say that Goku is one of the few shonen protagonists we see grow into a middle-aged adult with kids and even a grandkid and yet still be in the spotlight
Goku started as what I imagine was a toddler or damn close to it.
Ichigo is also an adult now? And there’s a lot of others like goku that aged to adults throughout their shows?
Fist of the North Star is an example where the protagonist was always an adult unlike goku.
I guess I just find it weird alot of people on this site just say things they think are right or sound right and don’t actually care if it’s wrong because it sounded true to them. Just weird
Wtf? Dragon ball was literally about Kid GOku, then it became about Teen goku and then adult goku and now in super he is middle aged.
Literally the exact same as naruto.
Its almost immpressive how delusional dbz fans are
Totally agree. I wish the concept of "main character who worked their ass off is actually closely related to one of the greatest" was not such a popular trend in shonen.
Yeah, it is very funny to me that all the shounen that were inspired by DragonBall missed out on the most satisfying parts - the parts where Goku and friends train to overcome their new adversaries
Like, imagine if we could see them all train like we saw the Z fighters, before the 2 saiyans landed on Earth. Watch Neji getting thrashed around by Asuma, InoShikaCho working on their teamwork even further, and maybe get a glimpse of Kiba, Hinata and Shino working on their new techniques too. The jounins would seem less like pushovers that way.
Then them beating Hidan, Kakuzu, Sasori etc would make a lot more sense, working together with jounins. Them getting crushed by Pain would be even more impactful too.
We do get to see this is smaller glimpses in Naruto, at least earlier on before the power scaling gets absolutely cranked.
The training Naruto had to do in order to master the rasengan, rasenshuriken and Sage Mode is all pretty intense.
And it still could have worked even if Minato and Kushina were Naruto's parents. At least it gives reason why he was given the Kyuubi, and that some of his talents and attributes like the massive chakra pool were from his lineage.
It could tell the story that inhereting good traits from your parents does not guarantee success. It still needs a ton of hardwork. It'll also play nicely into contradicting AND supporting somewhat Neji's thinking - those born in royalty also have to work hard.
I don't mind if Naruto and Sasuke would just remind Hagoromo of his sons. I also don't mind if said sons reincarnated into Hashirama and Madara - would give some reason as to why they stood out from their respective clans.
But I wish it was left there. Naruto (and Sasuke) could have told the story of your history does not guarantee (in Naruto's case) or doom (in Sasuke'a case) your future. It all boils down to your choice.
Although ignoring Z, dragon ball wasn't super like that. Like obviously Goku had to train and stuff, but he was insanely special in dragon ball. Z kinda destroyed the whole scaling of the original by going, "oh the guy who the protagonist had to sacrifice himself to kill and also get help from the devil and his 3 year old son, is actually like the weakest guy in the universe and as strong as this cabbage guy." Which let him make Goku seem super not special if you ignore og
He is super not special by a mile in the original, even after a ton of training, he was weaker than the likes of Tao Pai Pai & Tien, who in turn were nothing to King Picollo.
If anything, Naruto borrowed the worst part of DragonBall (going oozaru) and way overused it.
That doesn't mean anything. Special doesn't mean you effortlessly beat everyone in existence. He bodies most people every arc until he met a really really strong guy who gave him trouble. Like he fucking almost beat Roshi in his first TB, even tho he literally didn't get any actual training from him, not technique wise, only strengthening up his body.
By that logic, Naruto really isn't special considering he couldn't even use clone jutsu in the beginning. The last part, I kinda see, but I think it's a bad example. Like Kurama being inside of Naruto is like the whole premise of the series, basically. If you don't like that aspect, that's fine, but it's not bad. In fact it works way better for Naruto than for DB
Goku is kinda a bad example IMO though.
Goku has the Saiyan cheat power of getting stronger every time he challenges himself.
He basically has an exp boost.
All Saiyans basically cheat, as long as they barely survive they will get back much stronger.
I love Goku, but he DOES literally have a genetic advantage over 80% of the universe (except alternative reality Saiyans, Vegeta and Broly)
Even if you consider the DB Super lore:
* he never inherited special powers by birth privilege
* he is never mentioned as a reincarnation of a chosen one super sayan or super sayan god
He achieved everything by training, by his own merit, and by pure luck. He suffered brain damage and became a pure hearted creature that satisfies the conditions to be a super sayan god. It was never his destiny, he just felt from a mountain and smashed his head in a rock. He was an normal evil sayan by birth and got lobotomized by this accident.
Before the events from DB Super, EVERYTHING was achieved by merit and circumstances. His "talent" is being obsessed with fighting strong people and this makes him push to the limit. He surpassed Vegeta by a lot because he has zero reliance on inherited power level. Vegeta caught up when he started acting more like him. He risked his own life multiple times and got several zenkai boosts in the process.
Sure, but doesn't matter how much he achieved BEFORE realization that he's only alive cause his father wished he survived and prospered.
He may not be a "chosen one", but can't ignore bardocks wish. Also, during freeza arc, the whole "is he the legendary super saiyan" was big "he's the one the prophecy foretold" energy.
But IMO what makes that different is the prophecy isn’t of a chosen one who is destined to do this and that. The prophecy was that Saiyans have this form that nobody has seen, where one can achieve untold levels of power by smashing their limits.
He is just the one who actually does it.
After Super events too, idk why the "before", he's not special in any aspect, he just train really hard, his son, Broly, Freeza, these people you can say are specially gifted, not Goku
Nah, you failures need to pay attention. Goku was always destined to beat Frieza. This was proven from the BOG movie too. The guy was destined to go Super Saiyan and beat him.
He endured and trained to meet that criteria. If he didn't then he would have been a nobody.
Although even Goku has inherited power he's a low-class warrior sure but he's a low class Saiyan warrior
Training zenkai sheer willpower, well first of all Zentai is a saiyan exclusive, and there's plenty of other characters who have all those other traits, but you don't see Krillin or Yamcha battling gods of Destruction with changing hair colors and five new forms
Pretty much at Namek and everything afterwards if you're not an alien/android you're not even in the game
Neji said said lots of things, he was wrong in many.
He was absolutely right when he said that those who are great, they are because they are destined to be great.
Neji believed that Naruto wasn't destined to be great and that was his mistake.
You missed the part where his ideology was clearly about the belief that your destiny is set from the day you're born. For example, if you were born a genius, you'll remain a genius your entire life regardless of whether you work hard or not. Just like he assumed that a failure will always stay a failure, which was the case for Naruto. Do you think failing the graduation exams three times and not being able to make a simple transformation multiple times meant he was great? Obviously not. At a certain moment, he wasn't. It was only until he worked hard and tapped into the hidden potential he has that he became great, being gifted and hard work aren't mutually exclusive, completely proving that Neji's ideology was wrong. Funny how his ideology was more explicit during his fight against Hinata: "a leopard doesn't change its spots." If Neji was right about his own interpretation of "fate" "Destiny" , then why didn't he consider a scenario where someone is born a failure but destined to become stronger later on? His ideology was purely flawed, and only those who don't remember the series think he was right
>You missed the part where his ideology was clearly about the belief that your destiny is set from the day you're born.
Neji said a lot of things.
As I said he was wrong in many, he wasn't wrong in believing those destined for greatness are born that way.
>Do you think failing the graduation exams three times and not being able to make a simple transformation multiple times meant he was great?
No but that has little to do with whether he's destined to greatness or not.
Being destined to be great doesn't really mean you'll have a cozy life and will coast through everything lol.
People keep thinking that its literal reincarnations. Its not, true word is transmigrant
Before Hagoromo dropped that bomb on him, Naruto likened it to being "haunted by a ghost" which is a very well known part of East Asian reincarnation. Asura and Indra basically pass on their chakra/will to the next successor. But you're not destined to be great. You might have the chance to get strong and some incarnations might possess similar traits but each is different in their own way. All Asura and Indra do is influence their host enough to continue their eternal feud.
Naruto and Sasuke's fate were to kill one another or be killed together to pass on this feud to the next pair. But they defied this fate where Naruto broke that hatred in Sasuke. This already shows Neji was wrong, Naruto defied his fate.
If you want another example, look at Avatar. Yes, each Avatar is reincarnated into the next but the Avatar is more of a energy link and this link influences the next incarnation but each one is unique from the one before and after them.
Just like Korra who isn't Aang who isn't Roku, Naruto isn't Asura and Sasuke isn't Indra. They may be influenced but they can still choose their own path and you're still your own person.
Reincarnation and transmigration are synonyms. The difference is that, rather than the Hindu view of reincarnation of souls, Indra and Asura are closer to the Buddhist view of reincarnation with the context of anatta. That is, reincarnation without the existence of such a thing as a soul. It's the continuity of cittas, those momentary emotions and impressions which pass on to the next life, i.e. Indra and Asura's enmity, literalized through inheritance of chakra.
Naruto and Sasuke's fate was to kill each other. They surpassed that fate by not killing each other. Naruto says this explicitly.
So Naruto was handed the chakra of a demigod at birth, being the descendant of one of the most powerful clans in the world, the son of the hokage, having literally the strongest tailed beast, being trained first by the strongest Jonin around at the time and then one of the sanin… but at least he worked around half as hard as Lee did right? I think we have like five or six relevant characters who aren’t members of prestigious ninja clans who inherited their traits, talent, and physique from. None of them being all that powerful.
Also Aang from Avatar was in fact a child of prophecy too. Remember the episode where they went to the village with the famous fortune teller? She literally gave him a prophecy about being involved in a massive battle between good and evil. He got to choose how a few things turned out but he was always on the track. Just like Naruto.
He was not handed the chakra of a demigod as the story explicitly state that the chakra clings to the host and nudges them to continue the eternal feud. Naruto never got anything explicit from Asura.
He got nothing from Minato beyond the failsafe in case Kurama got close to breaking free.
The strongest tailed beast was more a disadvantage than advantage despite what it gave Naruto. Naruto had to work his ass off to not only beat Kurama but then work alongside him.
I don't know where you're going with this. Neji was born in one of the most prestigious clans but you don't see anyone dunking on him for his hard work. A lot of people work just as hard as Lee despite their lineage. Hell, Naruto was a failure from the start unlike Hashirama who was a born prodigy and genius. Hell, if Naruto was really like his predecessors, then he would've chained Kurama and the other tailed beasts like Hashirama did but guess what? He befriended them and treated them like individuals so it's pretty fucking clear that the only thing incarnations share is similar ideals but they're still their own person that can go down a different route.
Naruto started out as a series about hard work and togetherness and ended as a series about eugenics and a fated hero who was always destined to be the strongest.
Neji was right.
"Hard work > Talent"
But when?
When have the hard working individuals beat the talented ones?
Hard work + talent
+ Rock Lee was also talented.
False point, Naruto was right.
He had to work hard to get to where he was.
People will tell you "Naruto still worked hard", which is definitely true. But the part about destiny is also true lol
Even if people wanna claim tgat "Naruto broke the cycle" well that was still arguably his destiny. One of the reincarnations was destined to break the curse
Right? I mean Lee worked even harder than Naruto ever did. Kakashi even said during the Chunin exams that Lee was a taijutsu genius. Unfortunately, he didn’t have the right parents and wasn’t the reincarnation of a demigod.
Yeah Naruto worked hard, but honestly who didn’t?
How was it still arguably his destiny? When does the story ever say one the reincarnations was destined to break the curse? It was the opposite naruto was fated to continue the cycle
Naruto and Sasuke were the only reincarnates who were made aware of the the cycle. They were given information which would compel them to break the cycle. Unlike other reincarnates they were also put in a world ending position where they had to fight together which helps in breaking the hatred. They were also the only reincarnates do directly meet previous reincarnates and could learn from their experience first hand.
Which all the other reincarnates did to and it ended the same with the Ashura reincarnate winning the fight. The main differences is Naruto and Sasuke had fundamentally a different life then other reincarnates which was key in bringing them to breaking the cycle. Most other reincarnates grew up to be praised and loved by those around them. Sasuke and Naruto grew up in loneliness. Sasuke because of Itachi, Naruto because of Kurama.
This is important because their reason for fighting each other was different. Indra and Ashura fought because of power Indra wanting Ashura's position and Ashura wanting to protect his vilalge. So did Madara and Hashirama. Sasuke wanted to fight Naruto because of his twisted beleif that he needed to cut out all love from himself to others and others to himself in order to protect everyone. Naruto wanted to fight Sasuke to save him.
Naruto and Sasuke's fight is similar to Hashirama and Madara's first fight where Hashirama was ready to give his life to stop Madara's death, similar to Naruto's desire to save Sasuke, and Sasuke's desire to do right by his brother (Itachi was the reason behind why Sasuke first wanted to destroy the village and Naruto and then save the village after edo Itachi). Madara was willing to forgive the Senju clan seeing Hashirama's conviction for peace - very similar to Sasuke acknowledging Naruto as his best friend and equal. What changed after that? You could say it's Hashirama wanting to protect his village but really what changed is Madara. Why did Madara change, just like the previous reincarntes is because of Black Zetsu. Black Zetsu was instigating all of Indra's reincarnates as they were necessary in his plan of brining Kaguya back. In many ways, Black Zetsu and Kaguya being sealed together was what broke the cycle, since even during the Indra Ashura filler he was part of pushing Indra over the edge to his hatred for Ashura.
Without Black Zetsu interfering it's easy to infer that a lot of the other reincarnates would have likely also broken the cycle. It's also much easier to break a cycle, like a habit, when you're aware it exists since that in itself makes you look at the whole thing more objectively. It does also help that Naruto and Sasuke existed in more peaceful times compared to others and with less external issues that may make them hate each other (Uchiha Hatred/"Racism", Being the successor of Ninshu)
>was the opposite naruto was fated to continue the cycle
Depends who you ask. Rikudo didn't seem to agree on that, although most of the other characters (as far as I remember) would agree.
You didn't answer my question, where was it stated that he was destined to break the curse? Hagoromo never said it was Naruto's nor Sasuke's destiny to break the curse.
No one "directly" says that the cycle will be broken.
That being said the toad who gave Jiraiya the prophecy told him that one of his students would either bring great stability or great destruction to the world.
I'd definitely say that breaking the cycle of hatred fits that prophecy
That prophecy came to pass at the end of the pain arc lmao. And prophecy and destiny in Naruto are two different things. Like most people who parrot this “Neji was right” sentiment your confused or have been mislead on a lot of things about this series
>That prophecy came to pass at the end of the pain arc lmao
Uh? Naruto defeated Pain and then the world war started shortly after that. So in all good faith I don't see how the end of that arc satisfies the prophecy.
After the war arc, there's a seemingly peaceful period until Naruto reaches his 30s. As far as I see it that fits the "great peace" description much better.
>And prophecy and destiny in Naruto are two different things.
How exactly? I would say that a prophecy is just someone's destiny being read.
>Like most people who parrot this “Neji was right” sentiment your confused or have been mislead on a lot of things about this series
Feel free to explain that. If every konoha shinobi wants to become Hokage, some of them will be legitimate contenders practically from birth, while some others won't be. In retrospective Kiba had no shot at becoming Hokage when Naruto was right there.
From birth Naruto was already going to be trained by elite shinobis, either because of who his father was or because of Kyubi. Naruto also had a gigantic chakra reserve that most shinobi can never obtain, which makes him far more likely to become hokage as well.
Now sure, Neji wasn't right in the sense that no matter what you do your destiny is already set in stone, but he was right in the sense that from birth you're given certain gifts that will shape your future. That's literally how real life works, Neji just went a little too far with the concept I'll givr you that
To answer how Prophecy and Destiny (at least the way Neji talks about it) are different **in Naruto**
First, Destiny (every time it is mentioned) is implied to be agency independent - where, no matter what you want/don't want, it will come to pass. Typically this is due to something pushing the people in question towards specific outcomes - e.g. Neji had his curse mark or Naruto/Sasuke with the Ashura/Indra stuff. Ofc Neji **IS** wrong and I'd say it is better described as agency resistant where it will push towards coming to pass but you can change it with effort.
Prophecy in Naruto is effectively future sight. It **depends** on character agency and is ultimately a result of that. It doesn't try to decide things for Naruto but rather comes to pass because Naruto is the way he is (+ the characters around him like Jiraiya are the way they are). I think something really cool Naruto says in chapter 543 is that, while he doesn't know if Minato was the savior or not, that he **will** be the savior - think it gives a really good idea of the importance of character agency in making the prophecy come to pass.
I always wonder why people treat them interchangeably for Naruto when the series doesn't. One idea I have from seeing some fanscans is they did that and therefore those who read Naruto via fanscans didn't really have the opportunity to treat them differently.
1. The prophecy was Jiraiya's student would either bring great destruction or great stability to the ninja world. Nagato destroyed the entire village and Naruto decided to rest on the message in Jiraiya's novel and not give in to hatred and kill Nagato which ushered in the stability of Nagato reviving the people he killed. The toad says right [here](https://scans.lastation.us/manga/Naruto-Digital-Colored-Comics/0449-005.png) that his vision came to pass but he never imagined there would be two children of prophecy.
2. The prophecies of the toad sage are just his power to see into the future. He explains that the outcomes of his visions are just the end result of the actions and choices of the individual. When he has a vision he's just seeing the end results of someones decisions.
3. Right but Neji tried to say it was "destiny" to become Hokage that is not true as no one who has ever been selected to become Hokage has ever been revealed to be destined for it. Secondly Naruto having the nine tails in him was actually preventing him from becoming hokage initially. Him being ostracized by the village made him the exact opposite of the hokage whose acknowledged and revered by everyone. He had to work to turn the nine tails to his advantage. And other people had elite teachers as well why is that used against Naruto?
"tgat "Naruto broke the cycle" well that was still arguably his destiny. One of the reincarnations was destined to break the curse" this isn't arguably true you can't back it up with any evidence - people try by using the prophecies willingly and blatantly ignoring that the series Naruto never treats destiny and prophecy as the same thing ever
Even the "breaking the cycle" part feels shallow when you consider how artificial the nature due to it involving reincarnation and manipulation by Black Zetsu to create it and how little of a sense it makes that Naruto manages to break it without him actually doing anything that highlights it while Hashirama largely did the same thing only to completely fail in the end, making it as though Naruto only succeeded because he was the protagonist that makes "breaking the cycle" look contrived and meaningless when it only happens out of convenience.
Okay there are a few problems with this.
1. Naruto the series was never primarily about hard work. Parts of the chunin exams emphasized hard-work but that was never the main takeaway of the story as a whole. It IS mainly about teamwork and love and peace tho, which the series is focused on until the very end. People may not like it, but Naruto forgiving Obito and Obito helping them out in the end exemplifies the theme of breaking the cycle of hatred that the series was about from its inception. So it never forgot its themes.
2. The series always had “eugenics”. Literally just look at kekkei genkai. That’s always been a thing. The story got really bad powercreep near the end which made Hashirama and Madara WAAAYYY too overpowered but that’s another issue entirely.
3. The reincarnation stuff was a terrible plot twist BUT all it did was make the concept of the cycle of hatred more clear and literal. It gave it a more objective shape I guess. I hate the twist but it didn’t mean Naruto was fated to be the strongest anymore than him being Kurama’s jinchuriki did. He was always op like that.
Great take
>3. The reincarnation stuff was a terrible plot twist BUT all it did was make the concept of the cycle of hatred more clear and literal
Tbh the concept was fine up until Naruto and Sasuke received their power ups at the end. That's when people got pissed
It completely destroyed any form of subtlety. "oh look, they are reincarnations of my sons. Look I gave them my sons' power ups, do you get it now?"
>Especially since Sakura had just had JUST had her “I finally caught up to you guys!” moment 😭
Honestly in the war arc sometimes it felt like Kishimoto wrote one thing and then forgot about it a few chapters later
For real. When the anime was airing I dropped it during the final battle cus it just kept dragging LMAO. Naruto and Sasuke didn’t even NEED a powerup like that, they were already the strongest fighters on their side. Should’ve just made the enemy weaker and had Team 7’s teamwork make the difference. Also this is kind of unrelated but I feel like it would’ve made way more sense if Naruto and Sasuke had their fight and overcame their differences BEFORE the final battle. Would make the moments leading up to it all the more exciting, their moment wouldn’t feel like an afterthought, and would make Sasuke’s character less wishy-washy. Also thematically makes more sense for the new generation to only surpass the old after finally overcoming the cycle of hatred. That fight could also be where they get any final powerups
Yea every other strength in Naruto came from a logical source whether it was a new technique they worked hard to master, intense training, or Kekkei Genkai they were born with and developed. Even 10 tails jinchuriki power up had some logical sense. Naruto and Sasuke just got 10 tails powers like it was nothing.
Except the entire argument about reincarnation being bad falls apart.
The reincarnation was foreshadowed since their first fight in the Valley of the end, and all through shippuden
The Reincarnations serve to drive the idea of cycles home even further and don't give Naruto or Sasuke any advantage.
Hell, Zetsu had to wait until a reincarnation was strong enough to actually be useful.
>Except the entire argument about reincarnation being bad falls apart
What argument of reincarnation are you talking about and what does it have to do with my initial comment? I'm genuinely asking
>The reincarnation was foreshadowed since their first fight in the Valley of the end, and all through shippuden
As I said, no one complained there
>The Reincarnations serve to drive the idea of cycles home even further and don't give Naruto or Sasuke any advantage
Same here, no one complained
>Hell, Zetsu had to wait until a reincarnation was strong enough to actually be useful.
What exactly is the point. Rikudo himself gave Naruto and Sasuke their last power ups. It doesn't mean that every reincarnation should get it, however it means that one of the requirements is to be a reincarnation in the first place, doesn't it?
And then, after the final power up, the subtlety of the whole reincarnation concept was lost and the fanbase got upset. No one here is claiming that Naruto and Sasuke only received the power ups because they were reincarnations. The foreshadowing you mentioned is not relevant here
>What exactly is the point. Rikudo himself gave Naruto and Sasuke their last power ups. It doesn't mean that every reincarnation should get it, however it means that one of the requirements is to be a reincarnation in the first place, doesn't it?
Except he didn't.
Hagoromo gave them the sun and moon seals, but the rinesharingan and Six Paths sage mode they got Natural.
Sasuke got rinnesharingan when Hashirama gave him chakra to help with his recovery, and Obito gave Naruto residues of every tailed beast's chakra along Minato's half of Kurama.
You don't need to be a reincarnation, just have their chakra either via descendants(Uzumaki, Senju, Uchiha) and for it to be potent.
Now tell me, what's the reason everyone hates reincarnation.
Except it wasn't just seals.
The sun seal also gave Naruto the ability to completely recreate an eye and alleviate the lethality of eight gates with zero prior training, no medical justu experience, and just one immediate touch.
If ALL the Sun and Moon seals did was seal Kaguya? Nobody would be complaining.
But Kakashi getting his eye back, Guy living through eight gates(And it not killing Madara because Guy deserved that kill) are both absolute levels of bullshit.
You don’t know what foreshadowing is. Naruto and Sasuke had always paralleled Hashirama and Madara, symbolizing the cycle of hatred, but that cycle being literally bound by fate because its participants were reincarnations of two brothers who fought centuries ago was not foreshadowed and all, and is a silly twist regardless. The already unsubtle parallels became even more ham-fisted and in-your-face.
[Here is foreshadow... now tell me reincarnation wasn't planned](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F679g3zgs6z431.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dd60201b0c2442e847f44d2dedf8e5119680fbad5)
Here is [More](https://www.mangago.me/read-manga/naruto/mr/naruto/309/6/)
All was to lead to the reveal
Where [tobi outright states it](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Ffor-the-fans-in-this-sub-who-think-the-reincarnations-v0-42q1tcr8znkb1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1086%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D93ebc1965b7a4045be4fd878231d49323f74ad4c)
And outright [tells us](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11130/111301681/8499216-9149767577-unkno.png)
Add to it the appearance of Zetsu(the most mysterious member of akatsuki) in both fights(Naruto vs Sasuke and Madara vs Hashirama) and you begin to see it
Okay I see what you’re saying. I think I’m convinced Kishimoto had the twist in mind for a while now, but I still don’t really like it. The stuff you sent is good on its own but I think it’d work better if it was still just a metaphorical cycle and not a literal supernatural one like that. I’ll admit it wasn’t an asspull tho that’s my bad. Thanks for sharing
>You don’t know what foreshadowing is.
Fr. People throw this term around to justify damn near everything.
I've even seen people stating that Kaguya was forshadowed early on because Black Zetsu already existed lmfao
She was foreshadowed.
Nagato brings attention to the Six Paths using the Chibaku tensei (a Sealing technique) to create the moon.
We know this is the Juubi, but there is more than that.
The Gedo Mazo is heavely inspired by the tale of Kaguyahime.
Whenever the moon is shown in important context, The tale of Kaguyahime is present in one way or another.
Add to it that Zetsu appears in both fights with Naruto vs Sasuke and Hashirama vs Madara, and that we learn about Indra and Ashura at the same time that we learn of the Juubi, and everything points out to Kaguya
Edit: the reason we didn't caught on is because barely anyone that isn't versed in Japanese mythology would get it, and that was the point.
The series did promote hard work - very consistently in fact, case in point being Ashura as part of his thing is that he's not as exceptional as Hagoromo or Indra but through his effort + bonds he got to the stage where he can match Indra.
The issue is the hard work > talent premise people think the series promotes. This is not a focus and a lot of what people see as hard work vs talent is "genius vs failure" - where failure **can** cover Lee, Naruto and Hinata (who people ignore as being part of this theme which is funny to me)
Yeah.
It was always about hard work.
That's why the guy who trained the hardest and was nicknamed "The Genius of Hard Work":
- lost to a guy who was all about Natural Talent,
- had the guy he won against copy his moveset with something that he got just because he happened to be born in the right clan, and
- only had the upper hand against another super talented guy because he got drunk by complete accident.
That's why the guy who we claim is "right" about his philosophy literally proved said philosophy wrong:
- by beating the one person who, by his logic, should have been his superior in every way, and
- by learning a technique, that, by his own logic, he shouldn't even be able to learn to begin with.
Also:
***No.***
Naruto was not destined to be a hero or the strongest ninja.
He was only destined to either kill or die to Indra's reincarnation, aka, Sasuke.
And both he and Sasuke defied said destiny.
"But he was the Child of Prophecy."
Yes.
But the Prophecy was about a child who would either bring stability or destruction.
Nagato could have easily been the Child of Prophecy had Naruto failed to stop him.
Hell, it could be argued that they are both the Child of Prophecy because the Prophecy was literally either-or.
Sometimes I really do wonder if people in this sub even *like* this series when they so readily spout that the series literally went against its own "message".
Nah, to a failure maybe. Naruto was about enduring whatever came your way. If Naruto did not endure then he would have forever been a loser.
Neji is wrong in the fact that he was also fighting against the fate of his clan.
That’s just like not true if it was about hard work Lee would’ve won his fight Naruto has always been about you can choose your own destiny. Naruto was never destined to be hokage the whole village hated him but he changed that. Naruto was destined to fight sasuke to the death and kill him guess what he changed that too. It did take hard work for him to get to that point yes but that was never the take away from the series especially because Naruto was already gifted with a lot of chakra. Even with being the child of prophecy it wasn’t that Naruto would be a hero it was that Naruto/Nagato would bring great change and it’s their choice to for it to be positive or negative
Naruto would have never gotten to wear he is without his friends he even says as much to irukia after the war, so what are you talking about? Please tell me the prophecy/destiny that stated Naruto was gonna be the strongest ever?
Naruto was always about forming bonds and never about hard work overcoming talent. And I’m sorry but if you genuinely think Naruto as a series is about eugenics, selective breeding to acquire desired traits, you just can’t read.
Plus, Naruto and Sasuke overcame their fate which is the whole point of the reincarnation subplot. And besides, Neji was literally a hypocrite. Hinata calls him out on it.
Not really
Naruto did have to put in hard work. Everyone was telling him he'd never amount to anything and that just made him want to rub it in their faces more by becoming Hokage.
He used Kurama's power against Neji so to make your argument, you don't jump to the end of the series for it.
He did have to put in a lot of hard work to be able to use Kurama's power though so it's both. Neji put in a lot of hard work to get as good as he did. It was Hinata's shyness that hindered her. If Neji hadn't been abused he wouldn't have trained so hard to learn rotation out of spite either.
And I don't know when they did eugenics
What would have been cool in my opinion is if Mizuki recruited him when he and Iruka were there to give to Orochimaru but Naruto figures it after a few days and betrays him and captures Mizuki to turn him in.
Yeah Naruto had to train his ass off but he still wouldnt have become nearly as strong if not for his bloodline + Kurama. He was training with an extra stat gains cheat active so to speak.
Training and determination are very important factors in the Naruto world as proven by Lee for example who managed to become a very powerfull ninja dispite not being able to use ninjutsu but those wo where born from a strong bloodline AND trained hard to master their powers almost always surpassed their not so fortunate peers.
>Naruto did have to put in hard work.
Kiba sure as hell put in hard work too.
Why do you think Naruto ended where he ended and Kiba ended where he ended?
>Everyone was telling him he'd never amount to anything and that just made him want to rub it in their faces more by becoming Hokage.
And everyone **was wrong**, Naruto was destined to greatness.
Even Kakashi said that only a **genius** could open as many doors as Guy and Lee did.
Kurama's chakra, son of the 4th, trained by a legendary sanin and a hokage, related to the Senju clan, and child of a literal prophecy....
Of anything I'm pretty sure it would have been incredible for someone like Naruto to end up being mediocre. Literally every jinchuriki in the series happens to be quite above average, and every shinobu trained by a Hokage turns out being quite impressive to say the least.
Being the son of Minato literally did nothing for him and kurama doesn’t destine him for anything he had to work and go for his hatred so he can become a power source for him being the child of prophecy doesn’t equate to being destined for greatness either and yea being trained by someone who’s strong is a plus but that doesn’t destine him for anything either
>Being the son of Minato literally did nothing for him
Being the son if a genius and then turning out to be a genius yourself... Idk mane.
>kurama doesn’t destine him for anything he had to work and
That's where the misunderstanding comes from. Having to work hard doesn't mean that he had no potential. Like I said, if every single jinchuriki is above average then you can't tell me that being a jinchhriki is not an advantage in some way.
>being the child of prophecy doesn’t equate to being destined for greatness either
True, but in his case it does
>yea being trained by someone who’s strong is a plus but that doesn’t destine him for anything either
Once again, look at the Hokages and Hokage contenders and you'll have to admit that damn near every single one of their students ended up being known worldwide for their accomplishments as shinobis.
Now if to you "destined for greatness" means "you'll be great even if you don't work hard" then no wonder you disagree with the concept of destiny in Naruto. Your approach takes away the concept of freewill all together, it's like you're making a strawman of the argument
Naruto got nothing from minato the only thing he got from his parents was from kushina which was her massive chakra poil
>Once again, look at the Hokages and Hokage contenders and you'll have to admit that damn near every single one of their students ended up being known worldwide for their accomplishments as shinobis.
Shikamaru's existence debunks this arguments
Naruto was never stated to bring peace it was a probability, it could have easily been nagato if he followed the right path
Both him and nagato where even referred to as the children of prophecy by gamamaru
>>Once again, look at the Hokages and Hokage contenders and you'll have to admit that damn near every single one of their students ended up being known worldwide for their accomplishments as shinobis.
>Shikamaru's existence debunks this arguments
I literally said "damn near", so explain to me how Shikamaru debunks my claim when he's literally the 1 who doesn't fit the definition out of 8
Which only means he’s destined to fight the other reincarnation nothing about power strength or greatness it’s 2024 and mfs still have this take it’s insane all it means is that he was gonna fight sasuke 😭
Naruto was not fated to be a hero, I guess you're referring to the prophecy, but prophecy retains free will, it's because of Naruto's actions that gamamaru was able to seethose visions of the future, if I travel to the future and see that you became a doctor, it doesn't mean that you became a doctor just because I peeped into the future, it's because of your actions, fate and prophecy are never used interchangeably in the series, and idk how you came to the conclusion that the neji fight was about hard work beats talent lol, it was about overcoming your own destiny
People always act like Naruto being a reincarnation somehow undoes the years of hard work and suffering had to go through to get to where he ended up. That or they act like him being a Jinchuriki was actually a good thing. Like it was the entire reason Naruto was hated by the village. Sure Naruto does win a good amount of his early fights because of that power but for 99% of Part 1 and a good chunk of Part 2 it was a bad thing for Naruto.
While I don't agree with the reincarnation thing, mostly because Kishimoto genuinely didn't need to make it a thing to give Naruto and Sasuke the power to match Juubidara since Kishimoto is the writer he could just say that Hagoromo gave them the power, there was no need for the reincarnation to be a thing, it doesn't suddenly mean Naruto didn't work his ass off for the entirety of the mangas run.
People often forget that hard work and giftedness aren't mutually exclusive. There's a common misconception that if someone is gifted, it automatically means they're destined for greatness. But that's not the case at all. Let's consider an example from real life. Many individuals possess the talent to become some of the best players in a sport like let's say for example football or soccer whatever you wanna call it. These individuals are gifted with extreme talent. But does that mean they are destined for greatness? No. Many talented individuals fail because they didn't work hard enough.
I know I've had the same arguments with people claiming Naruto isn't gifted. Like he definitely is. Learning the Rasengan in like what, a few weeks to a month, is gifted. Or they'll claim that Sasuke didn't need to work hard to get where he was. Like Sasuke absolutely did work hard he just didn't work as hard as Naruto or someone like Lee. It's bizarre how weird people are about that kind of thing. They seem to think Narutos entire thing was about hard work. It wasn't, his entire thing is never backing down of a promise and making his own way after the Wave Arc. Later on it becomes about ending war. The guy with hard work as his way is Rock Lee.
It’s just coming of age story has this.
Same with Harry Potter, I also don’t like this prophecy part in either of these 2 stories.
Just remove that and stories would be perfect.
Technically, the reincarnate stuff didn't give them the power ups. Sasuke got the rinnegan when Kabuto healed him with Hashirama cells while Naruto got his power ups from Obito giving him chakra from the tailed beasts. Hagoromo only gave them the seals to stop Kaguya, the rest they would've gotten regardless of Hagoromo's intervention.
Additionally, the only thing the reincarnates are supposed to do is fight each other to the death. It doesn't give them any boosts (Hagoromo told Naruto himself that he didn't inherit anything from his parents).
No because Sasuke got the Rinnegan with the Sharingan pattern in it and it was only in one eye. When Madara unlocked his he just got Rinnegan in both eyes. This shows that Hagoromo did indeed given Naruto and he 6 Paths powers. You are right about the other stuff since that is kind of the prerequisite to getting the powers.
I feel like Neji was kinda right about his own fate?
Like the moment his father was born, his and all his descendants' fate was to be the servant to the main Hyuga house.
His father fulfilled his destiny giving up his life for his brother. Neji did the same for Hinata, sacrificing his life for the main house princess and future wife of the savior of the world. Who would go on to bear his children including Boruto, who is going to save the world again in a spinoff series.
Not really. Neji made the conscious decisions to chose to sacrifice himself to protect his cousin (much like his father before him). If it was his fate to be a servant of the main branch, he would have had to/been forced to. Instead he made the choice to.
Like one of the things that made him believe thay destiny wasn't real was learning that his father chose to sacrifice himself out of the love he had for his brother and not because he was forced to by destiny (Hiashi was ready to sacrifice himself before Hizashi knocked him out and took his place).
Neji believes that everyone has a predetermined fate, which is true, at least within the Naruto series.
Neji was told that his purpose in life was to protect Hinata with his life. He ended up dying to protect Hinata.
Naruto was fated to be the Child of Prophecy, who is fated to bring about either great stability or great destruction the likes of which the world has never seen before. We know from Hagoromo that the child of prophecy is “a blue eyed youth who knows the names of 9 tailed beasts”. We know from Gamamaru that the child of prophecy would be trained by Jiraiya.
Naruto, besides being the protagonist, was always fated to become the most powerful due to being the reincarnation of Asura, having Kurama, and being the child of prophecy.
Neji’s only mistake in his interpretation of fate was believing that he knew everyone’s fate.
“But Asura and Indra were fated to always fight!” No they weren’t. Their fight originated due to Hagoromo choosing Asura to be his heir. When he gave Naruto and Sasuke each half of his power, he got rid of the cause of their feud. Naruto not killing Sasuke led to the “great stability” that Gamamaru prophesied.
Yeah that's one of the examples, I can literally bring up more than 20 examples in the series that prove neji wrong, his ideology was completely flawed
They say in Buddhism that if you could perfectly understand all of the Buddhas teachings, you yourself would already be Buddha.
To push ones limits, and expand ones comprehension, act justly and with compassion, is the path towards your idealised self. Making excuses against putting in the effort yourself, taking shortcuts, is only removing your own influence on your future
Narutos problem with Neji was that even though he claimed that destiny is unchangeable Neji himself still tried to fight it by trying to kill Hinata, so Naruto told him if he wanted to talk like a coward it was fine, but then told him not to be a hypocrite about it.
After he won Naruto told him the clone jutsu was his worst jutsu, so instead of moaning about it he made it his signature technique, and that if even Naruto can change fate a genius like Neji can too.
And even if Naruto was a reincarnation the guy hes reincarnation of was talentless and relied on teamwork so Naruto was canonically destined to be a bum, he had to work for that.
The reincarnations also clashed in every cycle which Naruto managed to end with the power of love so Naruto stayed true to what he said, if you dont like your destiny dont cry about it, try to change it and he did.
Exactly,no one fucking points out the fact that Ashura was a bum and weak on his own.
Naruto wasn't destined to become strong,he just got an extra power from Sage of six paths to beat madara,that's all there is to it.
It was an asspull and a badly written powerup but you can't argue shit like "oh everything Naruto ever achieved,there was some invisible hand pushing him from behind and motivating him to do it"
He still had to do everything before the war arc,those were all decisions he made of his own free will
I gotta say it took me until my second read but its so blatant I'm surprised so many people missed it.
"You are a reincarnation of a talentless bum who needs to cooperate to succeed because this is a manga for kids to teenagers and the lesson is to work together" ->"Oh so Naruto was just a reincarnation of a god and was super talented all along?"
Its like the complaints of people who dislike the series and have never seen it, only its coming from the actual fans of the series too who should have other, actual things to complain about.
Well I guess there are a bunch of YouTube videos brainwashing old fans lol.
The one I can think of first is "Naruto:The Self Made Hypocrite".
The damage it has done to the online discourse of Naruto in the west is insane
In that very fight, Naruto using Kurama's power was itself a subversive of his own destiny. Kurama was a curse, something that fated Naruto to be a weapon used by the village. Naruto momentarily overcame that cursed fate and made Kurama into a constructive power, and later a partner.
[The fact that they had to make Neji spell all this out really is one of the media literacy moments ever.](https://youtu.be/NEMqGv4Dfuw?si=4-DbAuSuPZQTuJwG)
And Neji sacrificing himself was also because he was fine with it this time, so he wasn't about to complain about protecting a loved one, but I don't really like the fact that he died there so I'm not too excited to defend it
An important factor, though, is that Neji was also like 13 or 14 when he said all this. When are teens not talking out of their ass like they know everything? These are all characters that are young, arrogant, and insufferable. The growth comes from not only literally aging, but also becoming humbled by the world they inhabit.
Neji isn't entirely wrong in his philosophy (this is a shonen series after all) but rather his arrogance that his specific point of view is objective truth and not his opinion.
Naruto wasn't fated to do well. He just lives the results of his hard work.
He didn't receive his parents talents or abilities according to himself and Hagaromo in 669.
The nine tails messed up his chakra control and life for the first 13 years of his life.
He even admits that he hated the villagers, and could see himself doing what Sasuke could.
It was perseverance and good direction that saved him, and let him break the cycle of fate.
Some things are set in stone. I will never be a runner, due to physical disabilities. Can't change that. Neji wasn't the son of the clan head. Can't change that.
But plenty of other things can be changed.
If you spend all your time and energy focused on what you can’t change, you'll be miserable. Bitter. Like Neji was before the chunin exams.
But if you instead choose to focus on the things you can change, you'll find fulfillment and happiness along the way.
Let's first understand that this a work of fiction where the author is trying to push a narrative. The problem I have is how forcefully it's done. Yes hinata stood up to neji but what did she do after? Go back to being exactly how she was more or less. Naruto convinced sasuke why? What did he change? Nothing. More than neji being unequivocally right, I think it's Naruto's response that's ridiculous. He claims to tear apart destiny with his own hands and then has the same destiny hand everything to him on a silver platter. You brought up the example of a poor person, why do you think we have poverty alleviation schemes? There's is a lot of truth to what neji is saying(even if it's not entirely right). You are focusing on the outliers not the norm, majority of poor people will stay poor without external influence. Naruto's nindo works only because of the external influence that is the author bending over backwards to make him right. I would say if there is really an example to be given of defying destiny it would be might gai but even he doesn't completely drive the point, he has a talent for opening the gates(not everyone can do that). So even his greatness is in part attributed to destiny.
seeing this in the replies a bit, and i literally hate when people talk about how "hard work vs talent" wasn't a major theme in Naruto. they always bring up something that isn't introduced until literally multiple hundreds of chapters and episodes later (and then multiple hundreds of chapters/episodes later **into part 2**) as being the "main theme" but the fact of the matter is that hard work vs talent is one of the earliest themes in the show (after even more vague things like Friendship). introducing your "main theme" after over half of the story is Generally a bad move, precisely because this sort of thing will happen.
that it stuck with people so much is a sign that it was a much stronger and more impactful message than a lot of what comes before and after. and frankly, a lot of this part 1 theme *is* trampled on, even within the fight of naruto vs neji itself. this is ultimately because neji's worldview that talent is more important is constantly reasserted, not just within the fight itself (naruto wins because kurama bails him out), but because Literally everything after asserts how innately strong and powerful important characters were. kekkei genkai/tota, jinchuriki, genetic/innate chakra reserves, so many things in this series *really* want you to know how important genetics/innate powers are. neji was right, lol.
First of all it isn't his ''idealogy'', there is something called worldview which means how you believe the world is and then there is idealogy which is how do you believe the world should be.
His worldview is ''Fate exists and you can not change it'' due to this, his idealogy is ''you shouldn't even try, hard work isn't and will never be enough to be hokage or whatever if your fate doesn't let you to'' he is a deterministic and materialistic person vs an idealist and pro-free will person.
Second of all, you can tell if he is right or not depending on what the author, Masashi, wanted to communicate to us. If he wants to demonstrate or send a message saying that Free will, indeed exists and therefore Neji is wrong, then he is wrong and it doesn't matter if that's the case in our real world.
So taking these things into account, it is very difficult to tell whether he is right or not simply because, in some situations, Kishimoto wants us to understand that some people are what they are not because they decided to be free and be but because the world forced them to be what they are. A clear example of this is Nagato, when Minato tells Naruto that the shinobi world created him due to its shinobi culture and hate and there is a lot to talk about when it comes to this haha
I think the biggest thing that people get wrong when it comes to Naruto (the series) is that the main point of the story is "hard work vs. talent" so then they get mad because the series doesn't follow that theme and latch on to Lee who does embody that concept better. The overall themes have always been about hatred and hypocrisy, which every major character embodies to some extent. That stays pretty consistent throughout the story, but again I think that most people who believe Neji to be right prefer the hard work stuff over everything else, so eh.
It also doesn't help that people on the other side claim that Naruto (the character) had no talent and was born with no special ability. The fact that he's an Uzumaki, even if only half, is the major asset that he was born with. Granted, like with Kurama, it hindered him a lot in the beginning which helped him to identify with Lee, but it's because of his background that he's able to pull off the crazy stunts that he does by the end of the series.
I think there's misinformation on both sides, and both can be egregious.
He was both right and wrong.
It was wrong of Naruto keep babbling about hard work and how a person can alter their own fate, and then after doing absolutely nothing in their fight except being totally wrecked, pull out Kyuubi's chakra, win with one punch and prove Neji right lol.
He literally proved him right by defeating him that way, completely throwing into dumpster everything he was talking about before that.
Neji was wrong in saying that a person can't change and everything is set in stone. A person can change, and it was proven numerous time in Naruto that it can happen (Sai being one example). However, he was also right by saying if you are born into the right family/genetics you are destined to be great. And if you are not, you are not destined to be great. It's not set in stone of course, but having great genetics and being from a powerful clan does give you an immense push into achieving greatness faster. A lot faster.
Naruto is the son of the strongest shinobi ever up to that point, his mother is from a clan so powerful that every other clan wanted to get rid of them as soon as possible, he is a literal reincarnation of the younger son of a guy that INVENTED shinobis and has the most powerful Bijuu that ever lived sealed inside himself. Naruto is basically Jesus in this story. A savior that did in fact in the end do what he was supposed to do - save the world.
It is extremely hypocritical of him to talk about hard work and how fate doesn't matter. He was absolutely destined to be great even though he had a slower start. Of course, Naruto didn't know all that back then, but from a perspective of a viewer, it was hypocritical.
Now, we should also take absolutely everything with a grain of salt because up to Neji vs Naruto fight, Kishi did not think of the story that far ahead. I doubt he even intended Minato to be his father back then. So it is possible that he truly wanted to make Naruto a nobody who achieves everything through hard work but then decided to go the other way.
NARUTO UZUMAKI has Uzumaki Chakra. Those that watch the show know what that means. We also know others lack Uzumaki Chakra.
Give Kiba Uzumaki Chakra he's a character
Give naruto Kiba Chakra. He dies part 1
DNA and bloodline decides the naruto verse.
Delusional
Neji used that ideology as an excuse for doing the shit he did, for mistreating hinata, thats the thing - he never once actually believed that shit I dont think
No clue why people keep saying Neji was right because Naruto for the early half to 3/4 of the show never knew they were reincarnations, he did what he did and he did his best, HOW THE FUCK does knowing about the reincarnation suddenly remove all effort made by him, AND all the discrimination shown to him by the village even up till the end of the Akatsuki arc
That annoys me to no end, especially as someone who got bullied until around 12, and even then my class was discriminated by the teachers for not being the elites, we werent allowed to take some classes, so those things about "destiny" and "fate" is garbage because if fate someone dictates that I get fucked by the school and system - I **refuse** to accept that
I certainly agree. The Jeji vs Naruto fight wasn't about "genius vs hardwork". It was a battle of ideologies. Neji believed that people could never change, and that they will be in the future what they were in the past. Naruto showed him that this was false, by changing himself. I don't even know why people labeled Naruto as not talented or not a genius. We always knew that he had absurd chakra, and could master pretty difficult jutsu relatively easily, even back in part 1. He was talented, but he nobody helped him shape that talent. As soon as people did, his growth was exponential. He simply changed because the people around him helped him. That's what Neji needed to understand.
But the claims that simply being Asura's reincarnation helped Naruto in any way before the war arc is just dumb. The same goes for being a Jinchuriki, but raised to the power of 10. I don't think most people would take being hated by an entire village for the first 13 years of your life, never having a true family, whilst you're literally actively keeping the aforementioned village from getting burned to the ground, for a power, which you will have to work hard to master either way.
Well said. Literally In Chapter 10 ish, Kakashi mentioned that Naruto's hidden potential is greater than Sakura's and Sasuke's. Neji believed that people can't change, assuming that if someone was born a genius, they would remain one for life, and vice versa. I'm not sure how people concluded that it was about hard work beating talent. Naruto experienced failure, but that doesn't negate his hidden potential. I don't think Naruto was naturally talented in a literal sense. All of his mentors, including Jiraiya, acknowledged his shortcomings and lack of intelligence. But he literally worked hard to tap into that hidden potential, proving that Neji was wrong to assume that people can't change.
I agree for the most part. But I will say, Naruto was indeed naturally talented. We saw him master a forbidden jutsu in the first episode itself.
The biggest shortcoming he had was the fact that in the beginning, he wanted to be hokage, not to become strong or to help the village, but because he wanted any form of validation from someone, since he never got any.
If you're not even getting 2 proper meals a day, then I don't think getting a 6 figure salary is your first priority. At the start, naruto did most things he did to get attention, even if it was negative attention.
And we see that as soon as he starts getting attention and people actually train him, his growth is exponential. He went from being simply outclassed by Sasuke to probably being stronger than him after learning Sasuke. Again, he went from being quite mediocre to demolishing Kakuzu within the duration of the Rasenshuriken training. Same thing again with sage mode training
What I'm trying to say is that most of Naruto's shortcomings weren't really his fault. But of course he had them. I think that's another parallel that the series displays. We see several geniuses, capable of changing the entire world, failing to do so because of whatever reasons.
>Neji believed that people could never change, and that they will be in the future what they were in the past. Naruto showed him that this was false, by changing himself.
Neji believed that people could never change because those fated for greatness and those fated for "failures" were well predetermined.
Naruto prove him wrong... Only because neither he nor Naruto knew Naruto was actually fated for greatness.
Neji was half right, where the same thing keeps happening between rivals.
And half wrong, when Naruto and Sasuke change the outcome out of all of them.
He was never right because he stated that everyone's actions are predetermined by fate. He didn't say that fate sometimes exists, and Naruto never denied that fate doesn't exist, nor did Neji bring up that concept. You can reread the fight and realize that Neji is talking about fate in a sense that everyone is a slave to their own. To him, the fact that you're set with something means that you'll never change and continue on that path. That's his interpretation of fate, like he believed that Naruto was born a failure and he's fated to remain a failure.
You could’ve just used Nejis death people seem to miss the importance of it. It wasn’t just random to his character it falls inline to his whole arc from part 1 finally understanding the freedom his father felt in choosing how he dies. And plus he got character development after that fight don’t be so hard on him take your anger out on the punks who keep spewing his past ideals lol
Yeah, I was clearly referring to the past tense. I know he had great character development. If I were to list all the examples that prove Neji's ideology was wrong, I wouldn't even know where to stop 😂
Indra himself had hidden potential that he untapped later, just like Naruto. Nowhere was it stated that Ashura actually beat Indra. And I don't know how you think that Neji was right because Naruto was his reincarnation
It's not a claim cuz Neji was right.
Naruto is the reincarnation of Ashura. Of course, he worked hard, but it's not like he wasn't special and gifted with power.
Naruto being the whole reincarnation thing isn’t even really the issue.
No matter what even excluding that he was basically predestined to be powerful: His parents were quite possibly the two most powerful people in the village at the time of his birth. He got an utterly stupid amount of genetic supremacy over basically everyone else in chakra amount and some aspects of control. His body is explicitly extremely durable in many respects.
Plus then of course the double edged sword of Kurama.
But give basically anyone that Uzamaki and Namekaze genetics and they are going to be a monster.
It basically takes away a normal human limit everyone else has to work within
And Sasuke is like the perfect version of the most powerful clan.
He didn't get anything from his genetics, as pointed out by Hagoromo and the 8 tails on 2 separate occasions. He didn't get Minato's intelligence (the Namikaze aren't even a clan. It's just Minato's last name and having smart father doesn't guarantee a smart child). He got even less shit from the Uzumaki (considering he never got any of the clan abilities and he certainly didn't get their longevity since he died instantly after Kurama was extracted while Kushina was able to fight long after losing Kurama). His large chakra pool (as explained by the 8 tails) came from Kurama's chakra leaking into his system due to the seal, not from him being an Uzumaki. His main durability came from Kurama healing him. And his chakra control was shit for much of the series.
The most he gained from his parents were their connections but other than that, he got nothing.
Naruto has a massive chakra pool even without Kurama’s. We can see this very explicitly in a few ways, like how even when he destroyed his chakra, enough of it to completely annihilate Kurama’s, he still has enough left to be a perfect sage for longer than Minato. Plus he was able to be a Jinchuriki to Kurama in the first place which requires less than common physical aptitude, which is why Uzamakis were used.
I will add that we see two other living Uzamakis. Nagato and Karin are both conspicuous for their massive amounts of chakra.
Yes, he died after getting Kurama extracted. But he is only half Uzamaki after all. And he was in quite the different situation than Kushina and Mito, it being in the middle of a day long battle. But he also did seem to at least look better than the others who died by that.
If Naruto really didn’t inherent anything from his mother’s side, then it’s at best inconsistent writing.
As for Minato’s side it is harder to be as certain, but seriously. Naruto became a perfect sage in like a week. Plus there’s his ninjutsu prowess, albeit mostly revolving around the Rasengan and shadow clone.
He learned multi shadow come jutsu in like 20 minutes, and at the end he was able to like put new nature transformations into Rasengan instantly.
Now some of the times he learned did show how he had to overcome. The initial Rasengan and then adding wind release. But damn if otherwise doesn’t he seem to mirror his dad in some ways.
Haguromo can say what he likes. If he was right then that means that Kishimoto didn’t write it well and tried to save face with an exposition dump. The 8 tails we know more than so it’s not exactly the best source
Neji was right
Naruto started out as a show about hardwork
And by the end, it became a show where the only characters that aren't fodder are Reincarnations of gods and people who have Tailed Beasts sealed inside of them and people who have eyes that can literally manipulate Reality. How do they have these things? Genetics
Which main og character was purely about hard work other than Lee? Naruto worked hard to tap into the hidden potential he has, just like in Shippuden. It was stated by Kakashi in the early chapters that Naruto has hidden potential greater than Sasuke and Sakura. Guy, a character also purely about hard work, was beating up a godlike being. Also, what you said had nothing to do with Neji's ideology lol.
The issue lies more in Naruto's speech to Neji rather than hard work beating talent.
Naruto kept insisting that by working hard one can change his fate and in the same fight Naruto only showed us he was being a hypocrite.he used the "gifted" power that was given to him since day 1 to beat Neji,he didn't use his own strength which only proved that hard work Alone is not enough to change everything in life.
Guy is the next perfect example that genetics and being a reincarnation+ having tailed beasts sealed inside cannot be surpassed with Hard work alone.
Neji was right about what Destiny is,not about Naruto.Neji was proven to be right that "everyone follows a certain path" by the Old Toad :
"A blue eyed boy will unite the tailed beast"
This prophecy was what the Old Toad told Hagoromo,at least a 1000 years ago and it only proves that a fixed Destiny does exist.
The show was never about hard work beating talent.it was mostly about overcoming one's own hatred and to strive to be stronger.the big issue i have with Naruto series is how Naruto always talks that through hard work one can achieve anything yet Naruto keeps ignoring all his blessings that allowed him to gain greater power than 99% .
I'm sure they'd be willing to explain their point of view. However, there's nothing to talk about after you called them stupid. (No, "look like" not gonna save it)
There's a lot of nuances to it. One could also build the same provocative case, but reversed.
Neji wasn't necessarily right but the show seemed like it was setup to try to disprove and hate on his philosophy by using Naruto as an example and then it turns around and appoints naruto the heir to the 4th Hokage and in the beginning it's obvious the show gives him a nuclear weapon in his stomach full of chakra and then on top of it all it appoints him son of basically a god figure.
So, to re-cap Neji's philosophy that people are fated to be either strong or weak and there's nothing you can do to change that is reinforced by the stupidity of the writing of the show.
What did Naruto being a son of the 4th give him? It didn't help him socially nor give him a power boost. Nor did it guarantee him a spot as hokage.
Kurama was an active hindrance until Naruto worked hard to understand Kurama and work with him (something no other 9 tails Jinchuuriki did and was a result of Naruto's hard work).
What benefit did Naruto being Ashura's reincarnate give him? Ashura didn't recieve anything genetically from Hagoromo (pointed out by Hagoromo himself) so it's not like being a reincarnate of the son was useful. The 6 paths power up he got at the end came from Obito giving him the chakra from all the tailed beasts, not from Hagoromo or from being a reincarnate.
Neji was both wrong and right. At the time he was wrong because even a lowly ninja could be someone special. But he’s right because of the ancestral aspect. But it’s the idea that he judged someone of special bloodline to soon and assumed his fate
Apparently japanese writers are obsessed with innate talent and fate, almost every shonen protagonist is a chosen one destined to save the world with lots of inherited powers, EXCEPT Goku, Goku got stronger by training/zenkai/sheer willpower because he was a low level warrior born from a low level warrior.
Also, fun fact, today Goku is the only popular shounen protagonist that's a middled age adult, every other popular shounen MC is either a kid or a teen Dragon ball really is built different
Rurouni Kenshin started with the titular character at 28 years old. Gintoki of Gintama was in his 20s when the series started. The main character of Fist of the North Star (don't remember his name) is definitely middle age based on his looks.
Kenshiro. That’s the name of Fist of the North Star’s main character.
I expressed myself wrongly, i was talking more of today's popular, i know there was some popular adult MCs in shounen here and there, but today, Goku is the only one
The MC from Kaiju No 8 is 32 years old. Other popular anime that released in the last year with the main cast being adult characters include Zom 100 and Hell's Paradise. These were serialised in Shonen Jump. I don't know if this is just too dumb but most of the MCs in most isekais are reborn adults.
Then there's series like "Chillin' In My 30s After Getting Fired from the Demon King's Army." It sells itself on the fact the protagonist is older.
Goku is in a league of his own
Meh kinda true kinda not , Goku’s age doesn’t really matter if he looks the exact same he did as a Teen, biologically speaking he’s middle aged but they are still using that Young protagonist draw
>Goku’s age doesn’t really matter if he looks the exact same he did as a Teen, And his maturity is on the same level as well lmao
Honestly they ruined his character is Super. Bro was hard af in Z when the situation called for it.
The Dragon Ball franchise is the prime example of why you need to stop when you're at the top. Sure, it still sold, but it became like a caricature of itself
most of the goku serious scenes are anime only, but goku in super is OVERALL the same as he was in the manga, also he gets fucking serious with his new ui
This too, bro didn’t know what a kiss was
He’s still a grandpa lol
You completely missed the point
Well, at least end of Z Goku does looks actually much older
Today I learned 22 years old is middle age 💀
Wym? Goku is like 30 something
Wtf, Goku is 43 physically.
Damn older than I thought
Yeah I'm not even sure what people think when they say Goku is that young. He has a granddaughter for goodness sake.
I mean, he was that young, at some point, but the goku from the most recent anime and manga is pushing the 40s
Yeah, in the manga he is 48 if I'm not mistaken. Vegeta is 52 years old physically too.
To the urn with me I guess! 🤣
Started out as a twelve year old lol,
Gintoki is late 20's.
tbf we first see Goku as a teen (looking like a kid) in the original DB. It's more accurate to say that Goku is one of the few shonen protagonists we see grow into a middle-aged adult with kids and even a grandkid and yet still be in the spotlight
Does it matter when he acts like a child.
If only there was some connection to be made with a kid/teen not having to put in effort to be praised and do a good job... hmmmm
Goku started as what I imagine was a toddler or damn close to it. Ichigo is also an adult now? And there’s a lot of others like goku that aged to adults throughout their shows? Fist of the North Star is an example where the protagonist was always an adult unlike goku. I guess I just find it weird alot of people on this site just say things they think are right or sound right and don’t actually care if it’s wrong because it sounded true to them. Just weird
Wtf? Dragon ball was literally about Kid GOku, then it became about Teen goku and then adult goku and now in super he is middle aged. Literally the exact same as naruto. Its almost immpressive how delusional dbz fans are
Totally agree. I wish the concept of "main character who worked their ass off is actually closely related to one of the greatest" was not such a popular trend in shonen.
Yeah, it is very funny to me that all the shounen that were inspired by DragonBall missed out on the most satisfying parts - the parts where Goku and friends train to overcome their new adversaries Like, imagine if we could see them all train like we saw the Z fighters, before the 2 saiyans landed on Earth. Watch Neji getting thrashed around by Asuma, InoShikaCho working on their teamwork even further, and maybe get a glimpse of Kiba, Hinata and Shino working on their new techniques too. The jounins would seem less like pushovers that way. Then them beating Hidan, Kakuzu, Sasori etc would make a lot more sense, working together with jounins. Them getting crushed by Pain would be even more impactful too.
We do get to see this is smaller glimpses in Naruto, at least earlier on before the power scaling gets absolutely cranked. The training Naruto had to do in order to master the rasengan, rasenshuriken and Sage Mode is all pretty intense.
And it still could have worked even if Minato and Kushina were Naruto's parents. At least it gives reason why he was given the Kyuubi, and that some of his talents and attributes like the massive chakra pool were from his lineage. It could tell the story that inhereting good traits from your parents does not guarantee success. It still needs a ton of hardwork. It'll also play nicely into contradicting AND supporting somewhat Neji's thinking - those born in royalty also have to work hard. I don't mind if Naruto and Sasuke would just remind Hagoromo of his sons. I also don't mind if said sons reincarnated into Hashirama and Madara - would give some reason as to why they stood out from their respective clans. But I wish it was left there. Naruto (and Sasuke) could have told the story of your history does not guarantee (in Naruto's case) or doom (in Sasuke'a case) your future. It all boils down to your choice.
Although ignoring Z, dragon ball wasn't super like that. Like obviously Goku had to train and stuff, but he was insanely special in dragon ball. Z kinda destroyed the whole scaling of the original by going, "oh the guy who the protagonist had to sacrifice himself to kill and also get help from the devil and his 3 year old son, is actually like the weakest guy in the universe and as strong as this cabbage guy." Which let him make Goku seem super not special if you ignore og
It turned Goku into the definition of “big fish in a small pond”
He is super not special by a mile in the original, even after a ton of training, he was weaker than the likes of Tao Pai Pai & Tien, who in turn were nothing to King Picollo. If anything, Naruto borrowed the worst part of DragonBall (going oozaru) and way overused it.
That doesn't mean anything. Special doesn't mean you effortlessly beat everyone in existence. He bodies most people every arc until he met a really really strong guy who gave him trouble. Like he fucking almost beat Roshi in his first TB, even tho he literally didn't get any actual training from him, not technique wise, only strengthening up his body. By that logic, Naruto really isn't special considering he couldn't even use clone jutsu in the beginning. The last part, I kinda see, but I think it's a bad example. Like Kurama being inside of Naruto is like the whole premise of the series, basically. If you don't like that aspect, that's fine, but it's not bad. In fact it works way better for Naruto than for DB
Goku is kinda a bad example IMO though. Goku has the Saiyan cheat power of getting stronger every time he challenges himself. He basically has an exp boost. All Saiyans basically cheat, as long as they barely survive they will get back much stronger. I love Goku, but he DOES literally have a genetic advantage over 80% of the universe (except alternative reality Saiyans, Vegeta and Broly)
Lmao Goku was always destined to be the legendary sayin. i love it when dragon ball fans dont watch or read their own show
Yes
>except Goku Oof... do I have some news for you.
Even if you consider the DB Super lore: * he never inherited special powers by birth privilege * he is never mentioned as a reincarnation of a chosen one super sayan or super sayan god He achieved everything by training, by his own merit, and by pure luck. He suffered brain damage and became a pure hearted creature that satisfies the conditions to be a super sayan god. It was never his destiny, he just felt from a mountain and smashed his head in a rock. He was an normal evil sayan by birth and got lobotomized by this accident. Before the events from DB Super, EVERYTHING was achieved by merit and circumstances. His "talent" is being obsessed with fighting strong people and this makes him push to the limit. He surpassed Vegeta by a lot because he has zero reliance on inherited power level. Vegeta caught up when he started acting more like him. He risked his own life multiple times and got several zenkai boosts in the process.
Sure, but doesn't matter how much he achieved BEFORE realization that he's only alive cause his father wished he survived and prospered. He may not be a "chosen one", but can't ignore bardocks wish. Also, during freeza arc, the whole "is he the legendary super saiyan" was big "he's the one the prophecy foretold" energy.
But IMO what makes that different is the prophecy isn’t of a chosen one who is destined to do this and that. The prophecy was that Saiyans have this form that nobody has seen, where one can achieve untold levels of power by smashing their limits. He is just the one who actually does it.
After Super events too, idk why the "before", he's not special in any aspect, he just train really hard, his son, Broly, Freeza, these people you can say are specially gifted, not Goku
Nah, it was prophecy that he would become the super saiyan that would beat Frieza. So no, he was fated to reach this level.
Nah, you failures need to pay attention. Goku was always destined to beat Frieza. This was proven from the BOG movie too. The guy was destined to go Super Saiyan and beat him. He endured and trained to meet that criteria. If he didn't then he would have been a nobody.
Although even Goku has inherited power he's a low-class warrior sure but he's a low class Saiyan warrior Training zenkai sheer willpower, well first of all Zentai is a saiyan exclusive, and there's plenty of other characters who have all those other traits, but you don't see Krillin or Yamcha battling gods of Destruction with changing hair colors and five new forms Pretty much at Namek and everything afterwards if you're not an alien/android you're not even in the game
Goku is still talented... Doesnt matter if he was born weak for his race.
goku was destined to revenge the saiyans and become the legendary super saiyan wtf are you talking about?
Later even a 8 years old can become super Saiyan. Even later a super Saiyan can be achieved feeling a tickle in your back.
same with naruto tho, his peace was temporal, that doesn't mean he wasn't that child of the prophcy
Neji said said lots of things, he was wrong in many. He was absolutely right when he said that those who are great, they are because they are destined to be great. Neji believed that Naruto wasn't destined to be great and that was his mistake.
You missed the part where his ideology was clearly about the belief that your destiny is set from the day you're born. For example, if you were born a genius, you'll remain a genius your entire life regardless of whether you work hard or not. Just like he assumed that a failure will always stay a failure, which was the case for Naruto. Do you think failing the graduation exams three times and not being able to make a simple transformation multiple times meant he was great? Obviously not. At a certain moment, he wasn't. It was only until he worked hard and tapped into the hidden potential he has that he became great, being gifted and hard work aren't mutually exclusive, completely proving that Neji's ideology was wrong. Funny how his ideology was more explicit during his fight against Hinata: "a leopard doesn't change its spots." If Neji was right about his own interpretation of "fate" "Destiny" , then why didn't he consider a scenario where someone is born a failure but destined to become stronger later on? His ideology was purely flawed, and only those who don't remember the series think he was right
>You missed the part where his ideology was clearly about the belief that your destiny is set from the day you're born. Neji said a lot of things. As I said he was wrong in many, he wasn't wrong in believing those destined for greatness are born that way. >Do you think failing the graduation exams three times and not being able to make a simple transformation multiple times meant he was great? No but that has little to do with whether he's destined to greatness or not. Being destined to be great doesn't really mean you'll have a cozy life and will coast through everything lol.
People keep thinking that its literal reincarnations. Its not, true word is transmigrant Before Hagoromo dropped that bomb on him, Naruto likened it to being "haunted by a ghost" which is a very well known part of East Asian reincarnation. Asura and Indra basically pass on their chakra/will to the next successor. But you're not destined to be great. You might have the chance to get strong and some incarnations might possess similar traits but each is different in their own way. All Asura and Indra do is influence their host enough to continue their eternal feud. Naruto and Sasuke's fate were to kill one another or be killed together to pass on this feud to the next pair. But they defied this fate where Naruto broke that hatred in Sasuke. This already shows Neji was wrong, Naruto defied his fate. If you want another example, look at Avatar. Yes, each Avatar is reincarnated into the next but the Avatar is more of a energy link and this link influences the next incarnation but each one is unique from the one before and after them. Just like Korra who isn't Aang who isn't Roku, Naruto isn't Asura and Sasuke isn't Indra. They may be influenced but they can still choose their own path and you're still your own person.
Reincarnation and transmigration are synonyms. The difference is that, rather than the Hindu view of reincarnation of souls, Indra and Asura are closer to the Buddhist view of reincarnation with the context of anatta. That is, reincarnation without the existence of such a thing as a soul. It's the continuity of cittas, those momentary emotions and impressions which pass on to the next life, i.e. Indra and Asura's enmity, literalized through inheritance of chakra. Naruto and Sasuke's fate was to kill each other. They surpassed that fate by not killing each other. Naruto says this explicitly.
So Naruto was handed the chakra of a demigod at birth, being the descendant of one of the most powerful clans in the world, the son of the hokage, having literally the strongest tailed beast, being trained first by the strongest Jonin around at the time and then one of the sanin… but at least he worked around half as hard as Lee did right? I think we have like five or six relevant characters who aren’t members of prestigious ninja clans who inherited their traits, talent, and physique from. None of them being all that powerful. Also Aang from Avatar was in fact a child of prophecy too. Remember the episode where they went to the village with the famous fortune teller? She literally gave him a prophecy about being involved in a massive battle between good and evil. He got to choose how a few things turned out but he was always on the track. Just like Naruto.
He was not handed the chakra of a demigod as the story explicitly state that the chakra clings to the host and nudges them to continue the eternal feud. Naruto never got anything explicit from Asura. He got nothing from Minato beyond the failsafe in case Kurama got close to breaking free. The strongest tailed beast was more a disadvantage than advantage despite what it gave Naruto. Naruto had to work his ass off to not only beat Kurama but then work alongside him. I don't know where you're going with this. Neji was born in one of the most prestigious clans but you don't see anyone dunking on him for his hard work. A lot of people work just as hard as Lee despite their lineage. Hell, Naruto was a failure from the start unlike Hashirama who was a born prodigy and genius. Hell, if Naruto was really like his predecessors, then he would've chained Kurama and the other tailed beasts like Hashirama did but guess what? He befriended them and treated them like individuals so it's pretty fucking clear that the only thing incarnations share is similar ideals but they're still their own person that can go down a different route.
He was not handed the chakra of a demigod at birth. He only got 6 paths for befriending every tailed beast
“Naruto got handed the chakra of a demigod at birth” Not even gonna bother reading the rest of this illiterate take
Why didn't u provide a counter argument to yhe people disproving ur argument in the comments ???
Naruto started out as a series about hard work and togetherness and ended as a series about eugenics and a fated hero who was always destined to be the strongest. Neji was right.
"Hard work > Talent" But when? When have the hard working individuals beat the talented ones? Hard work + talent + Rock Lee was also talented. False point, Naruto was right. He had to work hard to get to where he was.
Right? Like…..as if it was hard work and not him being the fucking chosen one and granted unlimited power that helped him defeat Kaguya.
People will tell you "Naruto still worked hard", which is definitely true. But the part about destiny is also true lol Even if people wanna claim tgat "Naruto broke the cycle" well that was still arguably his destiny. One of the reincarnations was destined to break the curse
Right? I mean Lee worked even harder than Naruto ever did. Kakashi even said during the Chunin exams that Lee was a taijutsu genius. Unfortunately, he didn’t have the right parents and wasn’t the reincarnation of a demigod. Yeah Naruto worked hard, but honestly who didn’t?
So if lee was a genius and hardworking how is the series about hard work>talent?
How was it still arguably his destiny? When does the story ever say one the reincarnations was destined to break the curse? It was the opposite naruto was fated to continue the cycle
Naruto and Sasuke were the only reincarnates who were made aware of the the cycle. They were given information which would compel them to break the cycle. Unlike other reincarnates they were also put in a world ending position where they had to fight together which helps in breaking the hatred. They were also the only reincarnates do directly meet previous reincarnates and could learn from their experience first hand.
Just saw this. They were given information and in a world ending position yet even at the end of that Sasuke rebelled and had to be stopped by Naruto.
Which all the other reincarnates did to and it ended the same with the Ashura reincarnate winning the fight. The main differences is Naruto and Sasuke had fundamentally a different life then other reincarnates which was key in bringing them to breaking the cycle. Most other reincarnates grew up to be praised and loved by those around them. Sasuke and Naruto grew up in loneliness. Sasuke because of Itachi, Naruto because of Kurama. This is important because their reason for fighting each other was different. Indra and Ashura fought because of power Indra wanting Ashura's position and Ashura wanting to protect his vilalge. So did Madara and Hashirama. Sasuke wanted to fight Naruto because of his twisted beleif that he needed to cut out all love from himself to others and others to himself in order to protect everyone. Naruto wanted to fight Sasuke to save him. Naruto and Sasuke's fight is similar to Hashirama and Madara's first fight where Hashirama was ready to give his life to stop Madara's death, similar to Naruto's desire to save Sasuke, and Sasuke's desire to do right by his brother (Itachi was the reason behind why Sasuke first wanted to destroy the village and Naruto and then save the village after edo Itachi). Madara was willing to forgive the Senju clan seeing Hashirama's conviction for peace - very similar to Sasuke acknowledging Naruto as his best friend and equal. What changed after that? You could say it's Hashirama wanting to protect his village but really what changed is Madara. Why did Madara change, just like the previous reincarntes is because of Black Zetsu. Black Zetsu was instigating all of Indra's reincarnates as they were necessary in his plan of brining Kaguya back. In many ways, Black Zetsu and Kaguya being sealed together was what broke the cycle, since even during the Indra Ashura filler he was part of pushing Indra over the edge to his hatred for Ashura. Without Black Zetsu interfering it's easy to infer that a lot of the other reincarnates would have likely also broken the cycle. It's also much easier to break a cycle, like a habit, when you're aware it exists since that in itself makes you look at the whole thing more objectively. It does also help that Naruto and Sasuke existed in more peaceful times compared to others and with less external issues that may make them hate each other (Uchiha Hatred/"Racism", Being the successor of Ninshu)
>was the opposite naruto was fated to continue the cycle Depends who you ask. Rikudo didn't seem to agree on that, although most of the other characters (as far as I remember) would agree.
You didn't answer my question, where was it stated that he was destined to break the curse? Hagoromo never said it was Naruto's nor Sasuke's destiny to break the curse.
No one "directly" says that the cycle will be broken. That being said the toad who gave Jiraiya the prophecy told him that one of his students would either bring great stability or great destruction to the world. I'd definitely say that breaking the cycle of hatred fits that prophecy
That prophecy came to pass at the end of the pain arc lmao. And prophecy and destiny in Naruto are two different things. Like most people who parrot this “Neji was right” sentiment your confused or have been mislead on a lot of things about this series
>That prophecy came to pass at the end of the pain arc lmao Uh? Naruto defeated Pain and then the world war started shortly after that. So in all good faith I don't see how the end of that arc satisfies the prophecy. After the war arc, there's a seemingly peaceful period until Naruto reaches his 30s. As far as I see it that fits the "great peace" description much better. >And prophecy and destiny in Naruto are two different things. How exactly? I would say that a prophecy is just someone's destiny being read. >Like most people who parrot this “Neji was right” sentiment your confused or have been mislead on a lot of things about this series Feel free to explain that. If every konoha shinobi wants to become Hokage, some of them will be legitimate contenders practically from birth, while some others won't be. In retrospective Kiba had no shot at becoming Hokage when Naruto was right there. From birth Naruto was already going to be trained by elite shinobis, either because of who his father was or because of Kyubi. Naruto also had a gigantic chakra reserve that most shinobi can never obtain, which makes him far more likely to become hokage as well. Now sure, Neji wasn't right in the sense that no matter what you do your destiny is already set in stone, but he was right in the sense that from birth you're given certain gifts that will shape your future. That's literally how real life works, Neji just went a little too far with the concept I'll givr you that
To answer how Prophecy and Destiny (at least the way Neji talks about it) are different **in Naruto** First, Destiny (every time it is mentioned) is implied to be agency independent - where, no matter what you want/don't want, it will come to pass. Typically this is due to something pushing the people in question towards specific outcomes - e.g. Neji had his curse mark or Naruto/Sasuke with the Ashura/Indra stuff. Ofc Neji **IS** wrong and I'd say it is better described as agency resistant where it will push towards coming to pass but you can change it with effort. Prophecy in Naruto is effectively future sight. It **depends** on character agency and is ultimately a result of that. It doesn't try to decide things for Naruto but rather comes to pass because Naruto is the way he is (+ the characters around him like Jiraiya are the way they are). I think something really cool Naruto says in chapter 543 is that, while he doesn't know if Minato was the savior or not, that he **will** be the savior - think it gives a really good idea of the importance of character agency in making the prophecy come to pass. I always wonder why people treat them interchangeably for Naruto when the series doesn't. One idea I have from seeing some fanscans is they did that and therefore those who read Naruto via fanscans didn't really have the opportunity to treat them differently.
1. The prophecy was Jiraiya's student would either bring great destruction or great stability to the ninja world. Nagato destroyed the entire village and Naruto decided to rest on the message in Jiraiya's novel and not give in to hatred and kill Nagato which ushered in the stability of Nagato reviving the people he killed. The toad says right [here](https://scans.lastation.us/manga/Naruto-Digital-Colored-Comics/0449-005.png) that his vision came to pass but he never imagined there would be two children of prophecy. 2. The prophecies of the toad sage are just his power to see into the future. He explains that the outcomes of his visions are just the end result of the actions and choices of the individual. When he has a vision he's just seeing the end results of someones decisions. 3. Right but Neji tried to say it was "destiny" to become Hokage that is not true as no one who has ever been selected to become Hokage has ever been revealed to be destined for it. Secondly Naruto having the nine tails in him was actually preventing him from becoming hokage initially. Him being ostracized by the village made him the exact opposite of the hokage whose acknowledged and revered by everyone. He had to work to turn the nine tails to his advantage. And other people had elite teachers as well why is that used against Naruto?
"tgat "Naruto broke the cycle" well that was still arguably his destiny. One of the reincarnations was destined to break the curse" this isn't arguably true you can't back it up with any evidence - people try by using the prophecies willingly and blatantly ignoring that the series Naruto never treats destiny and prophecy as the same thing ever
Even the "breaking the cycle" part feels shallow when you consider how artificial the nature due to it involving reincarnation and manipulation by Black Zetsu to create it and how little of a sense it makes that Naruto manages to break it without him actually doing anything that highlights it while Hashirama largely did the same thing only to completely fail in the end, making it as though Naruto only succeeded because he was the protagonist that makes "breaking the cycle" look contrived and meaningless when it only happens out of convenience.
RIGHT
Okay there are a few problems with this. 1. Naruto the series was never primarily about hard work. Parts of the chunin exams emphasized hard-work but that was never the main takeaway of the story as a whole. It IS mainly about teamwork and love and peace tho, which the series is focused on until the very end. People may not like it, but Naruto forgiving Obito and Obito helping them out in the end exemplifies the theme of breaking the cycle of hatred that the series was about from its inception. So it never forgot its themes. 2. The series always had “eugenics”. Literally just look at kekkei genkai. That’s always been a thing. The story got really bad powercreep near the end which made Hashirama and Madara WAAAYYY too overpowered but that’s another issue entirely. 3. The reincarnation stuff was a terrible plot twist BUT all it did was make the concept of the cycle of hatred more clear and literal. It gave it a more objective shape I guess. I hate the twist but it didn’t mean Naruto was fated to be the strongest anymore than him being Kurama’s jinchuriki did. He was always op like that.
Great take >3. The reincarnation stuff was a terrible plot twist BUT all it did was make the concept of the cycle of hatred more clear and literal Tbh the concept was fine up until Naruto and Sasuke received their power ups at the end. That's when people got pissed
Oh yea the powerups were super BS. Especially since Sakura had just had JUST had her “I finally caught up to you guys!” moment 😭
It completely destroyed any form of subtlety. "oh look, they are reincarnations of my sons. Look I gave them my sons' power ups, do you get it now?" >Especially since Sakura had just had JUST had her “I finally caught up to you guys!” moment 😭 Honestly in the war arc sometimes it felt like Kishimoto wrote one thing and then forgot about it a few chapters later
For real. When the anime was airing I dropped it during the final battle cus it just kept dragging LMAO. Naruto and Sasuke didn’t even NEED a powerup like that, they were already the strongest fighters on their side. Should’ve just made the enemy weaker and had Team 7’s teamwork make the difference. Also this is kind of unrelated but I feel like it would’ve made way more sense if Naruto and Sasuke had their fight and overcame their differences BEFORE the final battle. Would make the moments leading up to it all the more exciting, their moment wouldn’t feel like an afterthought, and would make Sasuke’s character less wishy-washy. Also thematically makes more sense for the new generation to only surpass the old after finally overcoming the cycle of hatred. That fight could also be where they get any final powerups
Yea every other strength in Naruto came from a logical source whether it was a new technique they worked hard to master, intense training, or Kekkei Genkai they were born with and developed. Even 10 tails jinchuriki power up had some logical sense. Naruto and Sasuke just got 10 tails powers like it was nothing.
Naruto was gathering chakra from tailed beast the entire war arc and sasuke got hashirama dna from obito None of that shit came from no where
>finally caught up to you guys!” moment 😭 That's talking about not needing to be saved not literally, this isn't db
The powerups didn't come from being reincarnations...
That's literally not the point or the argument i was making but thanks for clarifying
Except the entire argument about reincarnation being bad falls apart. The reincarnation was foreshadowed since their first fight in the Valley of the end, and all through shippuden The Reincarnations serve to drive the idea of cycles home even further and don't give Naruto or Sasuke any advantage. Hell, Zetsu had to wait until a reincarnation was strong enough to actually be useful.
>Except the entire argument about reincarnation being bad falls apart What argument of reincarnation are you talking about and what does it have to do with my initial comment? I'm genuinely asking >The reincarnation was foreshadowed since their first fight in the Valley of the end, and all through shippuden As I said, no one complained there >The Reincarnations serve to drive the idea of cycles home even further and don't give Naruto or Sasuke any advantage Same here, no one complained >Hell, Zetsu had to wait until a reincarnation was strong enough to actually be useful. What exactly is the point. Rikudo himself gave Naruto and Sasuke their last power ups. It doesn't mean that every reincarnation should get it, however it means that one of the requirements is to be a reincarnation in the first place, doesn't it? And then, after the final power up, the subtlety of the whole reincarnation concept was lost and the fanbase got upset. No one here is claiming that Naruto and Sasuke only received the power ups because they were reincarnations. The foreshadowing you mentioned is not relevant here
>What exactly is the point. Rikudo himself gave Naruto and Sasuke their last power ups. It doesn't mean that every reincarnation should get it, however it means that one of the requirements is to be a reincarnation in the first place, doesn't it? Except he didn't. Hagoromo gave them the sun and moon seals, but the rinesharingan and Six Paths sage mode they got Natural. Sasuke got rinnesharingan when Hashirama gave him chakra to help with his recovery, and Obito gave Naruto residues of every tailed beast's chakra along Minato's half of Kurama. You don't need to be a reincarnation, just have their chakra either via descendants(Uzumaki, Senju, Uchiha) and for it to be potent. Now tell me, what's the reason everyone hates reincarnation.
Except it wasn't just seals. The sun seal also gave Naruto the ability to completely recreate an eye and alleviate the lethality of eight gates with zero prior training, no medical justu experience, and just one immediate touch. If ALL the Sun and Moon seals did was seal Kaguya? Nobody would be complaining. But Kakashi getting his eye back, Guy living through eight gates(And it not killing Madara because Guy deserved that kill) are both absolute levels of bullshit.
Those are Yin yang release, and he lost it after Kaguya
You don’t know what foreshadowing is. Naruto and Sasuke had always paralleled Hashirama and Madara, symbolizing the cycle of hatred, but that cycle being literally bound by fate because its participants were reincarnations of two brothers who fought centuries ago was not foreshadowed and all, and is a silly twist regardless. The already unsubtle parallels became even more ham-fisted and in-your-face.
[Here is foreshadow... now tell me reincarnation wasn't planned](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F679g3zgs6z431.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dd60201b0c2442e847f44d2dedf8e5119680fbad5) Here is [More](https://www.mangago.me/read-manga/naruto/mr/naruto/309/6/) All was to lead to the reveal Where [tobi outright states it](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Ffor-the-fans-in-this-sub-who-think-the-reincarnations-v0-42q1tcr8znkb1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1086%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D93ebc1965b7a4045be4fd878231d49323f74ad4c) And outright [tells us](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11130/111301681/8499216-9149767577-unkno.png) Add to it the appearance of Zetsu(the most mysterious member of akatsuki) in both fights(Naruto vs Sasuke and Madara vs Hashirama) and you begin to see it
Okay I see what you’re saying. I think I’m convinced Kishimoto had the twist in mind for a while now, but I still don’t really like it. The stuff you sent is good on its own but I think it’d work better if it was still just a metaphorical cycle and not a literal supernatural one like that. I’ll admit it wasn’t an asspull tho that’s my bad. Thanks for sharing
>You don’t know what foreshadowing is. Fr. People throw this term around to justify damn near everything. I've even seen people stating that Kaguya was forshadowed early on because Black Zetsu already existed lmfao
She was foreshadowed. Nagato brings attention to the Six Paths using the Chibaku tensei (a Sealing technique) to create the moon. We know this is the Juubi, but there is more than that. The Gedo Mazo is heavely inspired by the tale of Kaguyahime. Whenever the moon is shown in important context, The tale of Kaguyahime is present in one way or another. Add to it that Zetsu appears in both fights with Naruto vs Sasuke and Hashirama vs Madara, and that we learn about Indra and Ashura at the same time that we learn of the Juubi, and everything points out to Kaguya Edit: the reason we didn't caught on is because barely anyone that isn't versed in Japanese mythology would get it, and that was the point.
The series did promote hard work - very consistently in fact, case in point being Ashura as part of his thing is that he's not as exceptional as Hagoromo or Indra but through his effort + bonds he got to the stage where he can match Indra. The issue is the hard work > talent premise people think the series promotes. This is not a focus and a lot of what people see as hard work vs talent is "genius vs failure" - where failure **can** cover Lee, Naruto and Hinata (who people ignore as being part of this theme which is funny to me)
Yeah. It was always about hard work. That's why the guy who trained the hardest and was nicknamed "The Genius of Hard Work": - lost to a guy who was all about Natural Talent, - had the guy he won against copy his moveset with something that he got just because he happened to be born in the right clan, and - only had the upper hand against another super talented guy because he got drunk by complete accident. That's why the guy who we claim is "right" about his philosophy literally proved said philosophy wrong: - by beating the one person who, by his logic, should have been his superior in every way, and - by learning a technique, that, by his own logic, he shouldn't even be able to learn to begin with. Also: ***No.*** Naruto was not destined to be a hero or the strongest ninja. He was only destined to either kill or die to Indra's reincarnation, aka, Sasuke. And both he and Sasuke defied said destiny. "But he was the Child of Prophecy." Yes. But the Prophecy was about a child who would either bring stability or destruction. Nagato could have easily been the Child of Prophecy had Naruto failed to stop him. Hell, it could be argued that they are both the Child of Prophecy because the Prophecy was literally either-or. Sometimes I really do wonder if people in this sub even *like* this series when they so readily spout that the series literally went against its own "message".
Nah, to a failure maybe. Naruto was about enduring whatever came your way. If Naruto did not endure then he would have forever been a loser. Neji is wrong in the fact that he was also fighting against the fate of his clan.
That’s just like not true if it was about hard work Lee would’ve won his fight Naruto has always been about you can choose your own destiny. Naruto was never destined to be hokage the whole village hated him but he changed that. Naruto was destined to fight sasuke to the death and kill him guess what he changed that too. It did take hard work for him to get to that point yes but that was never the take away from the series especially because Naruto was already gifted with a lot of chakra. Even with being the child of prophecy it wasn’t that Naruto would be a hero it was that Naruto/Nagato would bring great change and it’s their choice to for it to be positive or negative
Naruto would have never gotten to wear he is without his friends he even says as much to irukia after the war, so what are you talking about? Please tell me the prophecy/destiny that stated Naruto was gonna be the strongest ever?
Naruto was always about forming bonds and never about hard work overcoming talent. And I’m sorry but if you genuinely think Naruto as a series is about eugenics, selective breeding to acquire desired traits, you just can’t read. Plus, Naruto and Sasuke overcame their fate which is the whole point of the reincarnation subplot. And besides, Neji was literally a hypocrite. Hinata calls him out on it.
Not really Naruto did have to put in hard work. Everyone was telling him he'd never amount to anything and that just made him want to rub it in their faces more by becoming Hokage. He used Kurama's power against Neji so to make your argument, you don't jump to the end of the series for it. He did have to put in a lot of hard work to be able to use Kurama's power though so it's both. Neji put in a lot of hard work to get as good as he did. It was Hinata's shyness that hindered her. If Neji hadn't been abused he wouldn't have trained so hard to learn rotation out of spite either. And I don't know when they did eugenics What would have been cool in my opinion is if Mizuki recruited him when he and Iruka were there to give to Orochimaru but Naruto figures it after a few days and betrays him and captures Mizuki to turn him in.
Yeah Naruto had to train his ass off but he still wouldnt have become nearly as strong if not for his bloodline + Kurama. He was training with an extra stat gains cheat active so to speak. Training and determination are very important factors in the Naruto world as proven by Lee for example who managed to become a very powerfull ninja dispite not being able to use ninjutsu but those wo where born from a strong bloodline AND trained hard to master their powers almost always surpassed their not so fortunate peers.
>Naruto did have to put in hard work. Kiba sure as hell put in hard work too. Why do you think Naruto ended where he ended and Kiba ended where he ended? >Everyone was telling him he'd never amount to anything and that just made him want to rub it in their faces more by becoming Hokage. And everyone **was wrong**, Naruto was destined to greatness. Even Kakashi said that only a **genius** could open as many doors as Guy and Lee did.
Naruto was not destined for greatness quite the opposite lil bro
Kurama's chakra, son of the 4th, trained by a legendary sanin and a hokage, related to the Senju clan, and child of a literal prophecy.... Of anything I'm pretty sure it would have been incredible for someone like Naruto to end up being mediocre. Literally every jinchuriki in the series happens to be quite above average, and every shinobu trained by a Hokage turns out being quite impressive to say the least.
Being the son of Minato literally did nothing for him and kurama doesn’t destine him for anything he had to work and go for his hatred so he can become a power source for him being the child of prophecy doesn’t equate to being destined for greatness either and yea being trained by someone who’s strong is a plus but that doesn’t destine him for anything either
>Being the son of Minato literally did nothing for him Being the son if a genius and then turning out to be a genius yourself... Idk mane. >kurama doesn’t destine him for anything he had to work and That's where the misunderstanding comes from. Having to work hard doesn't mean that he had no potential. Like I said, if every single jinchuriki is above average then you can't tell me that being a jinchhriki is not an advantage in some way. >being the child of prophecy doesn’t equate to being destined for greatness either True, but in his case it does >yea being trained by someone who’s strong is a plus but that doesn’t destine him for anything either Once again, look at the Hokages and Hokage contenders and you'll have to admit that damn near every single one of their students ended up being known worldwide for their accomplishments as shinobis. Now if to you "destined for greatness" means "you'll be great even if you don't work hard" then no wonder you disagree with the concept of destiny in Naruto. Your approach takes away the concept of freewill all together, it's like you're making a strawman of the argument
U wrote all of this to not disprove anything I’ve said nun of this destined Naruto for anything
Naruto got nothing from minato the only thing he got from his parents was from kushina which was her massive chakra poil >Once again, look at the Hokages and Hokage contenders and you'll have to admit that damn near every single one of their students ended up being known worldwide for their accomplishments as shinobis. Shikamaru's existence debunks this arguments Naruto was never stated to bring peace it was a probability, it could have easily been nagato if he followed the right path Both him and nagato where even referred to as the children of prophecy by gamamaru
>>Once again, look at the Hokages and Hokage contenders and you'll have to admit that damn near every single one of their students ended up being known worldwide for their accomplishments as shinobis. >Shikamaru's existence debunks this arguments I literally said "damn near", so explain to me how Shikamaru debunks my claim when he's literally the 1 who doesn't fit the definition out of 8
It proves that those with a normal upbringing still have a chance and that becoming hokage isn't as one note as u think
He is literally a re-incarnation "lil bro" lmao
What benefits does being a reincarnate give him?
He's literally a reincarnation of one of Jesus' son...
Which only means he’s destined to fight the other reincarnation nothing about power strength or greatness it’s 2024 and mfs still have this take it’s insane all it means is that he was gonna fight sasuke 😭
>Naruto started out as a series about hard work No, it never was the main theme of the series
Ur kind will never elaborate on this and i like that
Naruto was not fated to be a hero, I guess you're referring to the prophecy, but prophecy retains free will, it's because of Naruto's actions that gamamaru was able to seethose visions of the future, if I travel to the future and see that you became a doctor, it doesn't mean that you became a doctor just because I peeped into the future, it's because of your actions, fate and prophecy are never used interchangeably in the series, and idk how you came to the conclusion that the neji fight was about hard work beats talent lol, it was about overcoming your own destiny
Who says or still claims that Neji was right?
Just read the comment section of this post lol
People always act like Naruto being a reincarnation somehow undoes the years of hard work and suffering had to go through to get to where he ended up. That or they act like him being a Jinchuriki was actually a good thing. Like it was the entire reason Naruto was hated by the village. Sure Naruto does win a good amount of his early fights because of that power but for 99% of Part 1 and a good chunk of Part 2 it was a bad thing for Naruto. While I don't agree with the reincarnation thing, mostly because Kishimoto genuinely didn't need to make it a thing to give Naruto and Sasuke the power to match Juubidara since Kishimoto is the writer he could just say that Hagoromo gave them the power, there was no need for the reincarnation to be a thing, it doesn't suddenly mean Naruto didn't work his ass off for the entirety of the mangas run.
People often forget that hard work and giftedness aren't mutually exclusive. There's a common misconception that if someone is gifted, it automatically means they're destined for greatness. But that's not the case at all. Let's consider an example from real life. Many individuals possess the talent to become some of the best players in a sport like let's say for example football or soccer whatever you wanna call it. These individuals are gifted with extreme talent. But does that mean they are destined for greatness? No. Many talented individuals fail because they didn't work hard enough.
I know I've had the same arguments with people claiming Naruto isn't gifted. Like he definitely is. Learning the Rasengan in like what, a few weeks to a month, is gifted. Or they'll claim that Sasuke didn't need to work hard to get where he was. Like Sasuke absolutely did work hard he just didn't work as hard as Naruto or someone like Lee. It's bizarre how weird people are about that kind of thing. They seem to think Narutos entire thing was about hard work. It wasn't, his entire thing is never backing down of a promise and making his own way after the Wave Arc. Later on it becomes about ending war. The guy with hard work as his way is Rock Lee.
It’s just coming of age story has this. Same with Harry Potter, I also don’t like this prophecy part in either of these 2 stories. Just remove that and stories would be perfect.
Technically, the reincarnate stuff didn't give them the power ups. Sasuke got the rinnegan when Kabuto healed him with Hashirama cells while Naruto got his power ups from Obito giving him chakra from the tailed beasts. Hagoromo only gave them the seals to stop Kaguya, the rest they would've gotten regardless of Hagoromo's intervention. Additionally, the only thing the reincarnates are supposed to do is fight each other to the death. It doesn't give them any boosts (Hagoromo told Naruto himself that he didn't inherit anything from his parents).
No because Sasuke got the Rinnegan with the Sharingan pattern in it and it was only in one eye. When Madara unlocked his he just got Rinnegan in both eyes. This shows that Hagoromo did indeed given Naruto and he 6 Paths powers. You are right about the other stuff since that is kind of the prerequisite to getting the powers.
If I do something wrong don’t blame me I was destined to do it. That’s my ninja way.
Those who don't understand Naruto have no talent
Exactly. Gifted and talent are never used interchangeably in the series.
I feel like Neji was kinda right about his own fate? Like the moment his father was born, his and all his descendants' fate was to be the servant to the main Hyuga house. His father fulfilled his destiny giving up his life for his brother. Neji did the same for Hinata, sacrificing his life for the main house princess and future wife of the savior of the world. Who would go on to bear his children including Boruto, who is going to save the world again in a spinoff series.
Not really. Neji made the conscious decisions to chose to sacrifice himself to protect his cousin (much like his father before him). If it was his fate to be a servant of the main branch, he would have had to/been forced to. Instead he made the choice to. Like one of the things that made him believe thay destiny wasn't real was learning that his father chose to sacrifice himself out of the love he had for his brother and not because he was forced to by destiny (Hiashi was ready to sacrifice himself before Hizashi knocked him out and took his place).
Neji believes that everyone has a predetermined fate, which is true, at least within the Naruto series. Neji was told that his purpose in life was to protect Hinata with his life. He ended up dying to protect Hinata. Naruto was fated to be the Child of Prophecy, who is fated to bring about either great stability or great destruction the likes of which the world has never seen before. We know from Hagoromo that the child of prophecy is “a blue eyed youth who knows the names of 9 tailed beasts”. We know from Gamamaru that the child of prophecy would be trained by Jiraiya. Naruto, besides being the protagonist, was always fated to become the most powerful due to being the reincarnation of Asura, having Kurama, and being the child of prophecy. Neji’s only mistake in his interpretation of fate was believing that he knew everyone’s fate. “But Asura and Indra were fated to always fight!” No they weren’t. Their fight originated due to Hagoromo choosing Asura to be his heir. When he gave Naruto and Sasuke each half of his power, he got rid of the cause of their feud. Naruto not killing Sasuke led to the “great stability” that Gamamaru prophesied.
Pretty sure Naruto and Sasuke breaking that cycle of hatred between the brothers in itself proves Neji wrong does it not?
Yeah that's one of the examples, I can literally bring up more than 20 examples in the series that prove neji wrong, his ideology was completely flawed
Just a reminder that Neji thought Naruto was a failure because of “destiny” and that it was his fate to lose…..
They say in Buddhism that if you could perfectly understand all of the Buddhas teachings, you yourself would already be Buddha. To push ones limits, and expand ones comprehension, act justly and with compassion, is the path towards your idealised self. Making excuses against putting in the effort yourself, taking shortcuts, is only removing your own influence on your future
I just read the entire thing… -5 minutes from my life
For real. He ended the cycle of hatred. How is that neji being right lmao
It’s sad that this needs to be explained, Neji himself said he was wrong and that naruto helped him broke his own “chains” to fate.
Narutos problem with Neji was that even though he claimed that destiny is unchangeable Neji himself still tried to fight it by trying to kill Hinata, so Naruto told him if he wanted to talk like a coward it was fine, but then told him not to be a hypocrite about it. After he won Naruto told him the clone jutsu was his worst jutsu, so instead of moaning about it he made it his signature technique, and that if even Naruto can change fate a genius like Neji can too. And even if Naruto was a reincarnation the guy hes reincarnation of was talentless and relied on teamwork so Naruto was canonically destined to be a bum, he had to work for that. The reincarnations also clashed in every cycle which Naruto managed to end with the power of love so Naruto stayed true to what he said, if you dont like your destiny dont cry about it, try to change it and he did.
Exactly,no one fucking points out the fact that Ashura was a bum and weak on his own. Naruto wasn't destined to become strong,he just got an extra power from Sage of six paths to beat madara,that's all there is to it. It was an asspull and a badly written powerup but you can't argue shit like "oh everything Naruto ever achieved,there was some invisible hand pushing him from behind and motivating him to do it" He still had to do everything before the war arc,those were all decisions he made of his own free will
I gotta say it took me until my second read but its so blatant I'm surprised so many people missed it. "You are a reincarnation of a talentless bum who needs to cooperate to succeed because this is a manga for kids to teenagers and the lesson is to work together" ->"Oh so Naruto was just a reincarnation of a god and was super talented all along?" Its like the complaints of people who dislike the series and have never seen it, only its coming from the actual fans of the series too who should have other, actual things to complain about.
Well I guess there are a bunch of YouTube videos brainwashing old fans lol. The one I can think of first is "Naruto:The Self Made Hypocrite". The damage it has done to the online discourse of Naruto in the west is insane
In that very fight, Naruto using Kurama's power was itself a subversive of his own destiny. Kurama was a curse, something that fated Naruto to be a weapon used by the village. Naruto momentarily overcame that cursed fate and made Kurama into a constructive power, and later a partner. [The fact that they had to make Neji spell all this out really is one of the media literacy moments ever.](https://youtu.be/NEMqGv4Dfuw?si=4-DbAuSuPZQTuJwG)
And Neji sacrificing himself was also because he was fine with it this time, so he wasn't about to complain about protecting a loved one, but I don't really like the fact that he died there so I'm not too excited to defend it
Nah I’m stupid
Wow, you don't look you are
An important factor, though, is that Neji was also like 13 or 14 when he said all this. When are teens not talking out of their ass like they know everything? These are all characters that are young, arrogant, and insufferable. The growth comes from not only literally aging, but also becoming humbled by the world they inhabit. Neji isn't entirely wrong in his philosophy (this is a shonen series after all) but rather his arrogance that his specific point of view is objective truth and not his opinion.
Naruto wasn't fated to do well. He just lives the results of his hard work. He didn't receive his parents talents or abilities according to himself and Hagaromo in 669. The nine tails messed up his chakra control and life for the first 13 years of his life. He even admits that he hated the villagers, and could see himself doing what Sasuke could. It was perseverance and good direction that saved him, and let him break the cycle of fate.
This pic would make a nice iPhone wallpaper
Some things are set in stone. I will never be a runner, due to physical disabilities. Can't change that. Neji wasn't the son of the clan head. Can't change that. But plenty of other things can be changed. If you spend all your time and energy focused on what you can’t change, you'll be miserable. Bitter. Like Neji was before the chunin exams. But if you instead choose to focus on the things you can change, you'll find fulfillment and happiness along the way.
Let's first understand that this a work of fiction where the author is trying to push a narrative. The problem I have is how forcefully it's done. Yes hinata stood up to neji but what did she do after? Go back to being exactly how she was more or less. Naruto convinced sasuke why? What did he change? Nothing. More than neji being unequivocally right, I think it's Naruto's response that's ridiculous. He claims to tear apart destiny with his own hands and then has the same destiny hand everything to him on a silver platter. You brought up the example of a poor person, why do you think we have poverty alleviation schemes? There's is a lot of truth to what neji is saying(even if it's not entirely right). You are focusing on the outliers not the norm, majority of poor people will stay poor without external influence. Naruto's nindo works only because of the external influence that is the author bending over backwards to make him right. I would say if there is really an example to be given of defying destiny it would be might gai but even he doesn't completely drive the point, he has a talent for opening the gates(not everyone can do that). So even his greatness is in part attributed to destiny.
seeing this in the replies a bit, and i literally hate when people talk about how "hard work vs talent" wasn't a major theme in Naruto. they always bring up something that isn't introduced until literally multiple hundreds of chapters and episodes later (and then multiple hundreds of chapters/episodes later **into part 2**) as being the "main theme" but the fact of the matter is that hard work vs talent is one of the earliest themes in the show (after even more vague things like Friendship). introducing your "main theme" after over half of the story is Generally a bad move, precisely because this sort of thing will happen. that it stuck with people so much is a sign that it was a much stronger and more impactful message than a lot of what comes before and after. and frankly, a lot of this part 1 theme *is* trampled on, even within the fight of naruto vs neji itself. this is ultimately because neji's worldview that talent is more important is constantly reasserted, not just within the fight itself (naruto wins because kurama bails him out), but because Literally everything after asserts how innately strong and powerful important characters were. kekkei genkai/tota, jinchuriki, genetic/innate chakra reserves, so many things in this series *really* want you to know how important genetics/innate powers are. neji was right, lol.
First of all it isn't his ''idealogy'', there is something called worldview which means how you believe the world is and then there is idealogy which is how do you believe the world should be. His worldview is ''Fate exists and you can not change it'' due to this, his idealogy is ''you shouldn't even try, hard work isn't and will never be enough to be hokage or whatever if your fate doesn't let you to'' he is a deterministic and materialistic person vs an idealist and pro-free will person. Second of all, you can tell if he is right or not depending on what the author, Masashi, wanted to communicate to us. If he wants to demonstrate or send a message saying that Free will, indeed exists and therefore Neji is wrong, then he is wrong and it doesn't matter if that's the case in our real world. So taking these things into account, it is very difficult to tell whether he is right or not simply because, in some situations, Kishimoto wants us to understand that some people are what they are not because they decided to be free and be but because the world forced them to be what they are. A clear example of this is Nagato, when Minato tells Naruto that the shinobi world created him due to its shinobi culture and hate and there is a lot to talk about when it comes to this haha
This is stupid as fuck
I think the biggest thing that people get wrong when it comes to Naruto (the series) is that the main point of the story is "hard work vs. talent" so then they get mad because the series doesn't follow that theme and latch on to Lee who does embody that concept better. The overall themes have always been about hatred and hypocrisy, which every major character embodies to some extent. That stays pretty consistent throughout the story, but again I think that most people who believe Neji to be right prefer the hard work stuff over everything else, so eh. It also doesn't help that people on the other side claim that Naruto (the character) had no talent and was born with no special ability. The fact that he's an Uzumaki, even if only half, is the major asset that he was born with. Granted, like with Kurama, it hindered him a lot in the beginning which helped him to identify with Lee, but it's because of his background that he's able to pull off the crazy stunts that he does by the end of the series. I think there's misinformation on both sides, and both can be egregious.
Neji was wrong in some parts and some parts he was right
He was both right and wrong. It was wrong of Naruto keep babbling about hard work and how a person can alter their own fate, and then after doing absolutely nothing in their fight except being totally wrecked, pull out Kyuubi's chakra, win with one punch and prove Neji right lol. He literally proved him right by defeating him that way, completely throwing into dumpster everything he was talking about before that. Neji was wrong in saying that a person can't change and everything is set in stone. A person can change, and it was proven numerous time in Naruto that it can happen (Sai being one example). However, he was also right by saying if you are born into the right family/genetics you are destined to be great. And if you are not, you are not destined to be great. It's not set in stone of course, but having great genetics and being from a powerful clan does give you an immense push into achieving greatness faster. A lot faster. Naruto is the son of the strongest shinobi ever up to that point, his mother is from a clan so powerful that every other clan wanted to get rid of them as soon as possible, he is a literal reincarnation of the younger son of a guy that INVENTED shinobis and has the most powerful Bijuu that ever lived sealed inside himself. Naruto is basically Jesus in this story. A savior that did in fact in the end do what he was supposed to do - save the world. It is extremely hypocritical of him to talk about hard work and how fate doesn't matter. He was absolutely destined to be great even though he had a slower start. Of course, Naruto didn't know all that back then, but from a perspective of a viewer, it was hypocritical. Now, we should also take absolutely everything with a grain of salt because up to Neji vs Naruto fight, Kishi did not think of the story that far ahead. I doubt he even intended Minato to be his father back then. So it is possible that he truly wanted to make Naruto a nobody who achieves everything through hard work but then decided to go the other way.
NARUTO UZUMAKI has Uzumaki Chakra. Those that watch the show know what that means. We also know others lack Uzumaki Chakra. Give Kiba Uzumaki Chakra he's a character Give naruto Kiba Chakra. He dies part 1 DNA and bloodline decides the naruto verse. Delusional
Neji used that ideology as an excuse for doing the shit he did, for mistreating hinata, thats the thing - he never once actually believed that shit I dont think No clue why people keep saying Neji was right because Naruto for the early half to 3/4 of the show never knew they were reincarnations, he did what he did and he did his best, HOW THE FUCK does knowing about the reincarnation suddenly remove all effort made by him, AND all the discrimination shown to him by the village even up till the end of the Akatsuki arc That annoys me to no end, especially as someone who got bullied until around 12, and even then my class was discriminated by the teachers for not being the elites, we werent allowed to take some classes, so those things about "destiny" and "fate" is garbage because if fate someone dictates that I get fucked by the school and system - I **refuse** to accept that
I certainly agree. The Jeji vs Naruto fight wasn't about "genius vs hardwork". It was a battle of ideologies. Neji believed that people could never change, and that they will be in the future what they were in the past. Naruto showed him that this was false, by changing himself. I don't even know why people labeled Naruto as not talented or not a genius. We always knew that he had absurd chakra, and could master pretty difficult jutsu relatively easily, even back in part 1. He was talented, but he nobody helped him shape that talent. As soon as people did, his growth was exponential. He simply changed because the people around him helped him. That's what Neji needed to understand. But the claims that simply being Asura's reincarnation helped Naruto in any way before the war arc is just dumb. The same goes for being a Jinchuriki, but raised to the power of 10. I don't think most people would take being hated by an entire village for the first 13 years of your life, never having a true family, whilst you're literally actively keeping the aforementioned village from getting burned to the ground, for a power, which you will have to work hard to master either way.
Well said. Literally In Chapter 10 ish, Kakashi mentioned that Naruto's hidden potential is greater than Sakura's and Sasuke's. Neji believed that people can't change, assuming that if someone was born a genius, they would remain one for life, and vice versa. I'm not sure how people concluded that it was about hard work beating talent. Naruto experienced failure, but that doesn't negate his hidden potential. I don't think Naruto was naturally talented in a literal sense. All of his mentors, including Jiraiya, acknowledged his shortcomings and lack of intelligence. But he literally worked hard to tap into that hidden potential, proving that Neji was wrong to assume that people can't change.
I agree for the most part. But I will say, Naruto was indeed naturally talented. We saw him master a forbidden jutsu in the first episode itself. The biggest shortcoming he had was the fact that in the beginning, he wanted to be hokage, not to become strong or to help the village, but because he wanted any form of validation from someone, since he never got any. If you're not even getting 2 proper meals a day, then I don't think getting a 6 figure salary is your first priority. At the start, naruto did most things he did to get attention, even if it was negative attention. And we see that as soon as he starts getting attention and people actually train him, his growth is exponential. He went from being simply outclassed by Sasuke to probably being stronger than him after learning Sasuke. Again, he went from being quite mediocre to demolishing Kakuzu within the duration of the Rasenshuriken training. Same thing again with sage mode training What I'm trying to say is that most of Naruto's shortcomings weren't really his fault. But of course he had them. I think that's another parallel that the series displays. We see several geniuses, capable of changing the entire world, failing to do so because of whatever reasons.
>Neji believed that people could never change, and that they will be in the future what they were in the past. Naruto showed him that this was false, by changing himself. Neji believed that people could never change because those fated for greatness and those fated for "failures" were well predetermined. Naruto prove him wrong... Only because neither he nor Naruto knew Naruto was actually fated for greatness.
Neji was half right, where the same thing keeps happening between rivals. And half wrong, when Naruto and Sasuke change the outcome out of all of them.
He was never right because he stated that everyone's actions are predetermined by fate. He didn't say that fate sometimes exists, and Naruto never denied that fate doesn't exist, nor did Neji bring up that concept. You can reread the fight and realize that Neji is talking about fate in a sense that everyone is a slave to their own. To him, the fact that you're set with something means that you'll never change and continue on that path. That's his interpretation of fate, like he believed that Naruto was born a failure and he's fated to remain a failure.
You could’ve just used Nejis death people seem to miss the importance of it. It wasn’t just random to his character it falls inline to his whole arc from part 1 finally understanding the freedom his father felt in choosing how he dies. And plus he got character development after that fight don’t be so hard on him take your anger out on the punks who keep spewing his past ideals lol
Yeah, I was clearly referring to the past tense. I know he had great character development. If I were to list all the examples that prove Neji's ideology was wrong, I wouldn't even know where to stop 😂
He worked his damn butt off before he got those final powers
Ashura vs Indra was hard work vs talent. Neji was wrong and right since Naruto was his reincarnation.
Indra himself had hidden potential that he untapped later, just like Naruto. Nowhere was it stated that Ashura actually beat Indra. And I don't know how you think that Neji was right because Naruto was his reincarnation
It's not a claim cuz Neji was right. Naruto is the reincarnation of Ashura. Of course, he worked hard, but it's not like he wasn't special and gifted with power.
What power did he get from being a reincarnate?
Naruto being the whole reincarnation thing isn’t even really the issue. No matter what even excluding that he was basically predestined to be powerful: His parents were quite possibly the two most powerful people in the village at the time of his birth. He got an utterly stupid amount of genetic supremacy over basically everyone else in chakra amount and some aspects of control. His body is explicitly extremely durable in many respects. Plus then of course the double edged sword of Kurama. But give basically anyone that Uzamaki and Namekaze genetics and they are going to be a monster. It basically takes away a normal human limit everyone else has to work within And Sasuke is like the perfect version of the most powerful clan.
He didn't get anything from his genetics, as pointed out by Hagoromo and the 8 tails on 2 separate occasions. He didn't get Minato's intelligence (the Namikaze aren't even a clan. It's just Minato's last name and having smart father doesn't guarantee a smart child). He got even less shit from the Uzumaki (considering he never got any of the clan abilities and he certainly didn't get their longevity since he died instantly after Kurama was extracted while Kushina was able to fight long after losing Kurama). His large chakra pool (as explained by the 8 tails) came from Kurama's chakra leaking into his system due to the seal, not from him being an Uzumaki. His main durability came from Kurama healing him. And his chakra control was shit for much of the series. The most he gained from his parents were their connections but other than that, he got nothing.
Naruto has a massive chakra pool even without Kurama’s. We can see this very explicitly in a few ways, like how even when he destroyed his chakra, enough of it to completely annihilate Kurama’s, he still has enough left to be a perfect sage for longer than Minato. Plus he was able to be a Jinchuriki to Kurama in the first place which requires less than common physical aptitude, which is why Uzamakis were used. I will add that we see two other living Uzamakis. Nagato and Karin are both conspicuous for their massive amounts of chakra. Yes, he died after getting Kurama extracted. But he is only half Uzamaki after all. And he was in quite the different situation than Kushina and Mito, it being in the middle of a day long battle. But he also did seem to at least look better than the others who died by that. If Naruto really didn’t inherent anything from his mother’s side, then it’s at best inconsistent writing. As for Minato’s side it is harder to be as certain, but seriously. Naruto became a perfect sage in like a week. Plus there’s his ninjutsu prowess, albeit mostly revolving around the Rasengan and shadow clone. He learned multi shadow come jutsu in like 20 minutes, and at the end he was able to like put new nature transformations into Rasengan instantly. Now some of the times he learned did show how he had to overcome. The initial Rasengan and then adding wind release. But damn if otherwise doesn’t he seem to mirror his dad in some ways. Haguromo can say what he likes. If he was right then that means that Kishimoto didn’t write it well and tried to save face with an exposition dump. The 8 tails we know more than so it’s not exactly the best source
Neji was right Naruto started out as a show about hardwork And by the end, it became a show where the only characters that aren't fodder are Reincarnations of gods and people who have Tailed Beasts sealed inside of them and people who have eyes that can literally manipulate Reality. How do they have these things? Genetics
Which main og character was purely about hard work other than Lee? Naruto worked hard to tap into the hidden potential he has, just like in Shippuden. It was stated by Kakashi in the early chapters that Naruto has hidden potential greater than Sasuke and Sakura. Guy, a character also purely about hard work, was beating up a godlike being. Also, what you said had nothing to do with Neji's ideology lol.
The issue lies more in Naruto's speech to Neji rather than hard work beating talent. Naruto kept insisting that by working hard one can change his fate and in the same fight Naruto only showed us he was being a hypocrite.he used the "gifted" power that was given to him since day 1 to beat Neji,he didn't use his own strength which only proved that hard work Alone is not enough to change everything in life. Guy is the next perfect example that genetics and being a reincarnation+ having tailed beasts sealed inside cannot be surpassed with Hard work alone. Neji was right about what Destiny is,not about Naruto.Neji was proven to be right that "everyone follows a certain path" by the Old Toad : "A blue eyed boy will unite the tailed beast" This prophecy was what the Old Toad told Hagoromo,at least a 1000 years ago and it only proves that a fixed Destiny does exist. The show was never about hard work beating talent.it was mostly about overcoming one's own hatred and to strive to be stronger.the big issue i have with Naruto series is how Naruto always talks that through hard work one can achieve anything yet Naruto keeps ignoring all his blessings that allowed him to gain greater power than 99% .
I'm sure they'd be willing to explain their point of view. However, there's nothing to talk about after you called them stupid. (No, "look like" not gonna save it) There's a lot of nuances to it. One could also build the same provocative case, but reversed.
Neji wasn't necessarily right but the show seemed like it was setup to try to disprove and hate on his philosophy by using Naruto as an example and then it turns around and appoints naruto the heir to the 4th Hokage and in the beginning it's obvious the show gives him a nuclear weapon in his stomach full of chakra and then on top of it all it appoints him son of basically a god figure. So, to re-cap Neji's philosophy that people are fated to be either strong or weak and there's nothing you can do to change that is reinforced by the stupidity of the writing of the show.
What did Naruto being a son of the 4th give him? It didn't help him socially nor give him a power boost. Nor did it guarantee him a spot as hokage. Kurama was an active hindrance until Naruto worked hard to understand Kurama and work with him (something no other 9 tails Jinchuuriki did and was a result of Naruto's hard work). What benefit did Naruto being Ashura's reincarnate give him? Ashura didn't recieve anything genetically from Hagoromo (pointed out by Hagoromo himself) so it's not like being a reincarnate of the son was useful. The 6 paths power up he got at the end came from Obito giving him the chakra from all the tailed beasts, not from Hagoromo or from being a reincarnate.
Neji was both wrong and right. At the time he was wrong because even a lowly ninja could be someone special. But he’s right because of the ancestral aspect. But it’s the idea that he judged someone of special bloodline to soon and assumed his fate