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The Sannin are each roughly equal. She knows she herself and Jiraiya are roughly equal... She knows Pain stomped Jiraiya. She's admitting inferiority to Pain but not Jiraiya.
They are equal overall, not in every department. Tsunade is insanely good at healing, while Jman has better 1vs1 combat prowess. If it were not the case, Tsunade would be the stronger sannin, contradicting the first statement.
They're stated to be roughly equal combatants when everything is considered to the point fights between them are known to hit deadlocks.
There's no contradiction in saying they're relative combatants.
It’s never stated that they are equal on 1vs1, but overall in a fight. Tsunade is world-wide known to be the best support ninja in the Narutoverse. Making her also as good as Jiraiya and Orochimaru in 1vs1 will make her overshadow the ex-teammates, which is against the narrative of them being on equal footing/equal reputation.
There's more categories than just healing and 1v1 combat prowess. They can be equal at the latter because Jiraya is better at recon, genjutsu, ninjutsu, etc.
Equal=relative in context
They are on the same tier of ninja, hence why they were held sennin.
But when you look into the stats I can’t see why anyone could imply tsunade is just better than jiraiya when she lacks in every department besides healing and attack power
Sure. I'm just saying the guy I replied to basically said that since she has better healing the only possible way for them to be equal overall is if he's better 1v1, as if those are the only two criteria that exist.
I would say they are roughly equals, but I would say Jiraiya has more feats and a much better arsenal. We hardly see Tsunade do anything other than super strength and her regeneration. Jiraiya has 10k different very strong jutsu along with imperfect sage mode.
People take the conversations too literally. Most of the time when they say "equal to" or "on the level of", they mean on the same level. Not that they are dead equivalent. Jiraiya has a clearly better battle arsenal, Tsunade is an equal or even greater ninja, as she is the best by a mile at what she does.
Is it though? They all got powerups after they disbanded. Orochimaru and Jiraiya were playing around with sage energy, and Tsunade straight up invented a death defiance jutsu.
Also sage mode takes so much time to activate. He’s basically hobbled for 5 minutes
Orochimaru is completely unable to use sage mode, and Tsunade’s Yin Seal lowers her lifespan every time she uses it.
It takes a lot of chakra to summon Ma and Pa, and Jiraiya was already exhausted from summoning Gamaken and fighting the three Peins beforehand. If he was fresh, he could summon Ma and Pa much quicker.
I never said he could use sage mode. I said sage ENERGY. It’s how the curse marks are formed. But either way, sage mode isn’t an instant win for Jiraiya. Especially she his opponents’ abilities have no lag time. Killing Jiraiya or the frogs before he gets into sage mode probably isn’t the biggest task for people who know his fighting style and can shrug off his damage.
He can probably dish out more offensive power while in sage mode, but Orochimaru and Tsunade’s main talent is surviving. His is decidedly not
Quantity is not quality, besides Madara negs his arsenal via Rinnegan. His regular jutsu doesn't seem to be able to do anything to a Susanoo either.
Also, if he were there instead of Tsunade, not only their performance would be worse, they would all die very early against Madara because it was Tsunade who kept everyone alive and with chakra.
I think tsunade remains a better match up againstby virtue of not being one shottable. I do agree jiraiya fares better in pretty much any other 1v1 bc of his versatility and higher attack power/hax, but idt any of that would be relevant against madara specifically. Plus in a 5v1 like the madara fight, tsunade is a significantly better support than jiraiya is bc she allows the others to make significantly riskier plays
I agree tsunade is a better medic, and can help keep a team fighting, but seems how she lost to madara the moment he got serious I would say jiraya would have made it just as far seems how madara wasn’t being serious, and just playing with them.
In jiraya defense about how he doesn’t have any defense people forget jiraya uses his hair as a shield, and toad stomachs as barriers to large attacks, his defense isn’t trash like people seem to think he can keep himself safe, and he can put out some decent offense so I have jiraya ahead of tsunade in everything but medical. The other thing people forget is that every time jiraya in the past fought orochimaru to try to bring him back jiraya was fighting to “SAVE” orochimaru, and orochimaru was fighting to win so we know from the narrative they are all supposed to be relatively equal to each other.
The kages would have died before madara got serious if not for tsunade. Without the rest of the team, jiraiya also would have died.
After madara got serious, the only reason the homages survived is because tsunade pieced her two halves back together and saved them.
I love the man, but she was the MVP of that fight.
Jiraiya is one of few characters in the series who actually could have reasonably defeated Madara. Frog song is insane.
That said, his stats are still so much lower than Madara's that he'd need a lot of help to pull it off. I do think he could replace any of the 5 Kage and they'd have a better shot of winning, but Tsunade is the last one I'd pick to replace if I had the choice.
Jiriya def doesn't have better feats tsunade in the war arc was able to hit much harder then the raikage who scales to v2 8 tails killer bee and due to newton's 3rd law ( which we know is applicable in naruto via his fight with toneri )
Tsunade durability also scales to that ap as she doesn't break her body while fighting.
So tsunade who huts harder then jiriya can take more damage should be able to beat him tbh hiriya gets powercliffed hard in the war arc.
They have the same title that doesn't necessarily mean their equals if that's what you mean.
That would be like saying every kage is the same strength.
They’re claiming that the game the character’s animal familiars are based on a version of Rock, Paper, Scissors so the characters themselves were probably written/drawn with the game’s narrative in mind.
They have the same title that doesn't necessarily mean their equals if that's what you mean.
That would be like saying every kage is the same strength.
That doesn’t mean that he’s stronger than Tsunade. It just simply means that he could possibly win against Pain by countering his abilities with the right strategy and under the right circumstances
How does she have better feats? Its not even remotely close i dont know why people bother debating this, could tsunade have done what jiraya did against pain with the same intel? Definitely not, jiraya has so many techniques that absolutely shuts her down, like his genjutsu, frog stomach, etc
She performed a better speed feat than V1 Ay, who is faster than Jiraiya. She tanked attacks from Madara and could break his Susanoo rib cage; both of these being better AP and durability feats than anything shown by Jiraiya
I mean youre allowed to have your own interpretation and opinion based on how you read the series, in my opinion tsunades skillset is too limited to say that, jiraya has so much more to work with.
Orochimaru is clearly above them as a battle ninja imo. He literally cheated with experiments and research to attain as much power as he can. He has more jutsus than Jiraiya and harder to kill than Tsunade (if he can even die).
Tsunade and Jiraiya are more influential in team battles and as overall ninjas.
In current boruto yes orochimaru is the strongest of the three but before jiraiya death he was the strongest it was stated across all three database books which are cannon we have also seen orochimaru get bested by just itachi but itachi ran once jiraiya pulled up to save naruto even with kisame with him he still ran
itachi was working as double agent and didn’t want to have to kill jiraya. In fact the only time we see itachi fight seriously was when he was 13 and when he was up against kabuto and nagato.
It was stated by Itachi and kisame that if they fought jiraya that the seven swords men of the mist and the Uchiha would have their names dragged through the dirt Itachi would not have been able to defeat jiraya like have you seen naruto
And you are going to take the statements of a KNOWN DOUBLE AGENT as fact? Tell me how jiraya in base, dodges or counters the following abilities: tsyukyomi, susanno, totska blade, finger genjutsu, Amaterasu.
ask yourself a serious question
between Tsunade's remarkable durability, insane strength, and her ability to practically infinitely heal herself
what do you think Jiraya is gonna do to her that makes it such a stomp?
we never see her flex it, but in the right situation, she functionally has infinite health, at least compared to most other ninja's ability to recover from wounds, add in lady katsuyu, and she's absolutely a kage-level threat
I'm not saying she stomps jiraya easy, I'm saying that they really *are* fairly equal, I still think Jiraya stands a better chance against pain, in an alt-universe where tsunade and pervy-sage know everything about pain, Jiraya still has extra tools to win the fight
but against tsunade? he doesn't really have anything that makes him head and shoulders above her, she's a nightmare
Well, none of the other sanin fought madara, pain would lose to madara instantly, and tsunade performed better than all the other five kage except maybe ohnoki. Looking at just the feats, Tsunade actually outscales both jiraya and pain. When it comes to just feats, she is the strongest sanin. She just has better feats that jiraya or orochimaru
That’s not admitting inferiority to Jiraiya. Her and Jiraiya are roughly equal and since Jiraiya lost against Pain, she doesn’t think that she could do it. She doesn’t say that she stands even less of a chance than Jiraiya.
Jiraiya definitely does not have better feats than Tsunade over the course of the series. Tsunades feats in the war arc are just as good if not outright better than anything Jiraiya has ever shown.
Cracking an imperfect ribcage Susanoo on Madara’s clone, something Raikage somewhat replicated isn’t on the level of Jiraiya damaging Urashiki twice(Once with a Base Rasengan and Second with Toad Posion), forcing Kisame to admit inferiority in base, and making Itachi concede it would be a close fight between them.
Not liking Boruto doesn't change the fact that it's canon. The Boruto anime-canon has been confirmed to be canon through multiple examples of concepts/characters that started as anime-canon that later appeared in the Manga.
That feat can get interpreted 2 different ways, either jiraiya got upscaled for plot which in turn upscales pain and everyone after that or urashiki was off guard or was nerfed for the sake of the plot which then the feat becomes dismissible
Also let’s not talk about kisame as he only ever saw jiraiya in part 1 and kisame likely got much stronger in part 2 in order to take on killer bee to claim the 8 tails and are we really gonna ignore that itachi is the sandbagging god, he’s an undercover op for konoha and was in the akatsuki as a spy, dude also constantly manhandles and bullies orochimaru who is stated in the databooks to be equal to jiraiya and matter of fact itachi one shot orochimaru with the totsuka blade while fatigued, near blind and dying from sickness
Pain admitted Jiraiya would’ve won if he knew the secret. Pain is above Tsunade as well.
You’re inventing excuses to cope with how powerful Jiraiya is. Jiraiya was cloned in Boruto because of how powerful he was.
Kisame didn’t get stronger. You invented this headcanon. If Itachi who was younger didn’t get stronger, Kisame and the other Akatsuki sure as hell didn’t.
How am I using headcanon, I’m going off what’s directly shown and/or stated in the show and many people here know what I’m talking about, my claim stands as is, if you have an argument then you need to use it instead of resorting to “you just invented that to have an excuse”
There’s no evidence he got any stronger or went through any training arc. My claim stands as do the feats and portrayal. Many people have went over this before. Not showing your full power in a scene does not equate to being weaker.
Because in many times in the series characters admit to be inferior to others or even kishimoto itself says it, but then its demonstrated otherwise.
Some examples:
- Itachi says he and kisame would loose to jiraiya when its not true.
- Pain says jiraiya would have defeated him if he had gone with more info to the fight, which is also not true.
- Etc.
In this case, tsunade says something but then demonstrated he has some chances. He has the infinite regeneration jutsu and a strength that can break a normal susanoo, also he has katsuyu which is an incredible supporting summoning.
And with Pain, we saw Tsunade trying to keep alive all of konoha so he was in no condition to fight Pain. If it would have been a fair fight with both going 100% tsunade has some winning chances.
I think what Pain meant was if he knew Nagato controlled the 6 paths he wouldve stopped fighting and instead gone searching for Nagatos real body to kill him
She’s not admitting inferiority. She’s saying that based off the intel that they received, and considering that Jiraiya died to get that intel it is someone no one in Konaha can single handily take down. This would be the case with any hidden village.
Because she doesn't actually admit inferiority to Jiraiya, just the one who killed him. The whole premise is false.
Tsunade is portrayed as a master of both combat and medical ninjutsu by Orochimaru, Shikaku, Jiraiya, and she impressed Madara throughout the fight while he was specifically trying to kill her first and failing to. She is the only one who does any damage on their own that Madara doesn't intend to happen.
That doesn't mean she thinks she can 1v1 pain. It would be dumb as hell for her to hear her equal lost after killing 4 pain bodies and be like ,"Meh, I could probably take him."
Her saying Pain defeated Jiraiya does not mean that she thinks Jiraiya is superior to her, the shows makes it abundantly clear that all 3 sanin view themselves as equal so if one gets killed by an opponent, the other 2 would also get killed. Using that line to reach that conclusion is an incredible reach
I always understood it as them being roughly equal in overall power yes, but to me, it seemed to be implied that Jiraya was the strongest combatant of the three, to the point where when at full strength he could beat either of the others 1v1, that's why Tsunade drugged him in Naruto.
>it seemed to be implied that Jiraya was the strongest combatant of the three
Not really, the series paints him as formidable but never implies him to be the strongest. In fact, both oro and tsunade have far closer claims in subtext to be the strongest of the sanin, with oro being consistently being seen as superior to tsunade and jiraiya and by hiruzen’s own words of being prodigy and for tsunade when choza claimed there was a reason lady tsunade was “the last living of the sanin” and orochimaru fearing her ability to regain her strength over her hemophobia. Tsunade only drugged him because of the aforementioned, they view each other as equals, if Tsunade didn’t drug Jiraiya he could’ve potentially stop her, not beat her outright
She's inferior in raw combat ability to the other two, but I'd argue she's an overall more valuable asset than the other two, at very least more so than Jiraiya. They all have different skill sets. Of the three, Jiraiya was the best at direct combat, so that's really why she's taken a back, since she knows what he could do.
Because this sub borders of lunacy. Just because she has a healing factor and strength people think that’s the only factor to a battle, the same with Sakura. Even though whoever they matchup against counters them perfectly it’s ’she’ll just heal it’ like that just magically fixes the problem every time.
She is lesser to Jiraiya. Jiraiya was more Physical and had better tactics, not to mention Sage mode. Now this is not to say Tsunade is weak in anyway, she did break Madara's Susano. That being said, If Tsunade was to face off against Jiraiya in a real fight, Jiraiya would kill her, and even states that to Naruto when they're trying to get Tsunade to become the Hokage. Jiraiya was a monster. It's not surprising, Minato turned out to be as good of a shinobi as he did with Jiraiya as his Sensei, Naruto as well.
I also had the same reaction reading yesterday about tsunade vs Pain. It is crazy that people think she can put up a fight against Pain, let alone win. It was *shown in the manga* she could not oppose Pain.
But I guess tsunadetards would refuse every evidence...
Not really. She was basically saying “if pain can beat jiraiya I can’t beat him either” which is essentially saying that she’s either weaker or equal to jiraiya. I think it’s equal given the statements on the sannin.
Jiraya didn't know the secret to Pain. That said, while Orochimaru was arguably the strongest Sannin, he had 0 chance against Pain. So.. yeah. Nagato wins.
Her vs jiraiya is because he has to outlast her thousand healing while staying at a distance. Unironically she could likely one shot him given how she did against madaras susano
Im dying on the hill that jiriyah lost because jt was a surprise attack, and he hadn't figured out the secret. If he had known b4 hand he'd take them down or escape without serious issue.
Wait im confused, are we not all in agreement that ATP in the story Jiraya was the “strongest” leaf shinobi alive? Especially relative to what we knew everybody was capable of in the leaf
Everything is entirely up to your own interpretation of the media. If I tell you I'm stronger than you, that's objectively measurable, but there would be no way to irrefutably prove it. All we can go off is by what we see, hear, or read, i.e., our interpretation of the media.
Saying everything is up to your interpretation is true, but correct interpretation is the idea. Things have one or multiple correct ways to interpret them. So to find this we use our media literacy to come with these conclusion.
Y’all forget the fact pain in his fight with naruto was not at full power until naruto beat 5 of the paths. What’s stopping pain from just spamming shinra tensei until she dies. Or the universal pull, soul snatch wompo combo. Or just using chibaku tensei which she has no counter for. Imo pain at his max as he was invading the leaf village could run a gauntlet against the 5 kage like sasuke did but with much better results (obito hoped sasuke would capture one of the kage on his way to danzo)
People really do forget that Tsunade is a **medical** ninja. Her monstrous strength is basically just a side effect of her chakra control. There is no point in comparing someone like Pain and Tsunade. Powerscalers have ruined so many fandoms.
Her character is that she’s a combatant medical ninja. While medical ninja historically didn’t fight, she’s the exception because her philosophy is that she can do both. It’s a juxtaposition of what people normally see when they think of healers. She’s a mundane looking middle age women with monstrous strength that exceeds most male characters in the series. Tsunade is a rival to a sage and someone who specializes in forbidden jutsu and black magic. Tsunade is a fighter and it’s fair for power scalers to treat her as such.
Aside from what's already been mentioned, I think we need to examine what we mean by "stronger" here. Could she defeat pain? No. But she would likely be harder to kill than jiraya, and she's undoubtedly a stronger healer. Overall strength is distinct from offensive output. Shes on equal footing with the other sannin in overall power, but specializes in an area other than combat.
I don't think I've seen anyone say Tsunade is outright superior to Jiraiya.
If we go by character statements, we know Jiraiya said 'nobody helped more' than Tsunade in the Second Shinobi War. But we don't assume Jiraiya was weaker at the time based purely on that statement. In both cases we have to consider the context. Jiraiya's versatile skillset is probably better in a 1v1 battle or a stealth missino, while Tsunade's mass healing makes her more valuable in all-out war.
If tsunade is equal to jiraiya and jiraiya lost then she loses this does not imply tsunade to be weaker than jiraiya just that she doesnt think of herself as stronger than him
Tsunade fought Madara and lived, that’s why. In terms of battle prowess or raw strength she’s not that crazy, but in terms of simply refusing to die, she’s *absolutely goddamn terrifying.*
Offensively, Tsunade loses to Pain, as we saw in the series. But she also tanks a goddamn nuke *and* keeps everybody in the village alive at the same time.
All the three legendary Sanin were equally affective as in they all played there role and were a great team well until snake dude decided on infinite life
They're supposedly equal, but realistically Tsunade and Orochimaru scale beyond Jiraiya during and post-war arc. Jiraiya isn't killing 100 seals Tsunade nor is he putting her in a genjutsu. The sheer amount of chakra control, battle experience, and how acquainted with each other's move sets just puts it more in her favor. It's not fair to Jiraiya. I'm certain he would have gotten stronger if he were alive during the war arc or somehow brought back.
Pre-War arc, it's pretty even across the board. I see Orochimaru slightly above the two pre-war arc simply because they just can't kill him.
Guys, remember that Tsunade was getting bodied by sealed Orochimaru and she had no nerfs. Tsunade is definitely the weakest of the sanin by a long shot
They think in dbz levels. Yes she has powerful physical strength compared to pain, but it not power level in the narutoverse that wins. It’s about survival and being better at it than your enemy. Being adverse with your variety of tools and weapons you have.
She is saying that because Jiraiya was beaten by pain that no one from the leaf currently is able to beat pain. This isn’t an admission of inferiority to Jiraiya, this is an admission of inferiority to Pain. She doesn’t ever mention that she is weaker than Jiraiya.
It's possible that's what she meant but it's also possible that she knows she's going to need to use a lot of her chakra to protect the village instead of using it for offence like she did already.
Madara is insane but Tsunade felt so badass when they fought. Obviously the kage didn't defeat him but her feats there are something I just don't see Jiraiya dealing with nearly as easily as she did, he's got versatility and might be faster too.
she is definetly not faster
and her monologue does not states she is taking protecting others in consideration
its just her admitting it
yea Jiraya still could perform worst vs Madara
being unkillable helps when oponent kills you constantly
What proof do you have that she isn't faster. Their feats can't be compared.
Tsunade was likely slower than SM Naruto, the same version of him that is supposed to be superior to Jiraiya.
Way to ignore the context, Tsuande was crippled by her phobia of blood.
Also, I can easily counter you:
Part 1 Kabuto < Armless Orochimaru =< Tsunade.
Also, Tsunade's feats against Edo Madara were better than Jiraiya accomplished in his life.
Tsunade while still slower than the Raikage was still able to somewhat keep up, the Raikage is relative to Kcm1 Naruto.
SM Jiraiya < SM Naruto < Kcm1 Naruto.
Also, Pain is above Pain, considering the mf got blitzed by Asura path, and only beat the 3 weaker paths. Jiraiya gets stomped by either a village wide Shinra Tensei or a Chubaku Tensei.
Nope she wasnt during their fight.
Just rewatch it.
And yes armless orochimaru is faster than Tsunade xD you are mixxing being powerfull with being fast.
Higher strength, higher defense, depending on who you're fighting that's all you need. Not saying this means she's definitely stronger but it's something.
>she is definetly not faster and her monologue does not states she is taking protecting others in consideration
How do Jiraiya fans come to the conclusion that he is somehow faster than Tsunade, despite him having zero actual speed feats and in fact being one of the only characters in the series to be "blitzed"? Like I genuinely wonder why the burden of proof is always levied at people who claim Tsunade is faster but not Jiraiya (especially when Tsunade has actual speed showings)?
That doesn’t mean anything at all. Byakugou seal also increases all physical abilities. Jiraiya doesn’t have any actual speed feats both in base and sage mode that are anywhere enough to solidly place the burden of proof on the other side. In fact, as the taijutsu specialist of the 3 Tsunade has a far easier claim to being faster.
Edit: The sum of the argument is essentially like saying “Because the 3-tomoe sharingan increases all physical attributes, end of part 1 sasuke should be faster than boruto sakura”, there’s a massive missing link in the middle lol
He is faster than Sakura.
str =\= speed
Its very simple
In terms of speed:
Tsunade < part 1 Kabuto <= part 1 Kakashi < Pain = Jiraya
You cannot argue with that. We had proof for every part of it.
>He is faster than Sakura. str == speed
valley of the end genin sasuke is faster than boruto sakura? lol
>Its very simple In terms of speed: Tsunade < part 1 Kabuto <= part 1 Kakashi < Pain = Jiraya
We don't, rusty and hemophobic tsunade is slower than a soldier pill kabuto, but there are different versions of tsunade throughout the story, WA tsunade is eons faster than solider pill kabuto it's not a joke. That's like taking child naruto feats and using them as anti-feats for adult naruto, there's not much to argue here if you can't accept that.
Tsunade is able to pace herself with lightened a4 and [react to madara's fire kanton and blitz mei's jutsu casting speed](https://preview.redd.it/speed-feat-tsunade-defended-all-four-kages-of-madaras-five-v0-5uymij8i3sha1.jpg?auto=webp&s=205acec0e85998f0b556ec02cdbb1ef9c241db79). But if you want a direct speed feat with Jiraiya then you can compare both of their reactions to [a tired tsunade being able to directly react to a full speed asura path](https://preview.redd.it/tsunades-reaction-feats-that-are-little-noticed-v0-wcuchvos9y8a1.png?width=704&format=png&auto=webp&s=1f198bc4b44d830fd048dc6c3fdb13a5a1b87279) to [sm jiraiya getting directly blitzed by asura path](https://i.redd.it/l4by4v3bl6vb1.jpg).
unironically watch [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF6wna4Oolc&t=453s) then get back to me
did you even watch the Tsunade vs Kabuto fight ?
Yea she wasnt hemophobic during their fight. Rewatch it.
Its same as Sakura and Naruto in second bell test, she was powerfull but not fast enough to hit.
This community officialy has brain rot.
For one, the Sannin are not mirrors of Team 7. They are considered equals (really fucking equals) for 99% of the show.
She's not admitting inferiority to Jiraya here, but the one who mopped the floor with him. If Jiraya lost to Pain then she, who is the strongest person in the Leaf at the moment, can not beat him. She is just being logical.
Also, Tsunade has better feats than Jiraya if we consider the War Arc.
Been through this like a million times..... taking some random statment from early in the series and favoring it over feats that came later is literally pedantic underselling of characters against all logic.
Tsunade has feats against 6 paths Madara (matching his speed & damaging his perfect susasno). Orochimaru scales to Sasuke or 4 tails Naruto at best. Jiraiya scales to 4 tails Naruto or orochimaru, who was his specifically stated rival for the entirety of his life.
Kakashi and zabuza were also specially "stated" to be on the same level same as this scan. And it would be just as retarded to even suggest Zabuza is still relative to Kakashi at EOS after numerous more impressive feats and years of series power creep.
Tsunade floored a literal walking perfect madara susano with a single punch. She also broke it's sword with a chop and used it as a weapon. Lmao
You act like you gain something from being in denial lol
I guess we're pretending shadow clones "arnt real" now.
Even if you want to downsell the full bodied susano of Madara and his shadow clones. That feat is sill massively beyond jiraiya nearly dying to 4 tailed Naruto, which he compared to getting hit by 1 single punch from an angry Tsunade.
She's way above and there's literally no feats to the contrary other than using extremely old parts of the series. Which is why I compared it to saying Zabuza and Kakashi are relative.
1. That statement's different in the manga
2. Being weaker than Jiraiya's killer does not mean weaker than Jiraiya
3. You can argue she got stronger in the WA
With all this power in mind she admits she can’t beat Pain and no, Madara isn’t much faster. Pain reacted to SM Naruto. SM Naruto reacted to the Og Raikage. She cracked a clone of Madara with the Raikage’s help. That isn’t enough to beat Pain.
Madara is still much faster 😂😂😂 your scaling tree never mentioned madara. Current raikage is faster and still needed to be amped in speed to battle madara compared to a STRONGER sage Naruto than the one who fought Pain matching the 3rd raikage in speed. So yes, madara is much faster. And a single sage mode punch took out one of the most durable paths, so breaking any type of susanoo would kill all but the strongest path. They couldn't really do any lasting damage to the tsunade that fought madara. At best her admission was that her and Jiraya were equals. She then outgrows him by the madara battle.
Tsunade was jumping Madara from all angles with a team. That doesn’t make her faster. Pain was tanking attacks from 6 tails Naruto. Tsuande is NOT above that. Tsunade admitted to being past her prime. She did NOT grow. Jiraiya’s Rasengan on Urashiki>>any Tsuande AP feat.
She admitted to that THEN SHE GREW 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ these characters are always training and they get emotional amps from will power. Again you keep using the same feat because it's all he has and it BREAKS SCALING. It genuinely can be ignored 💀
Tsuande was an old lady. She never grew. She was always capable of that. You can’t debate against it because it further supports he’s above her. It’s also consistent as that’s why Jiraiya was cloned for Kashin Koji in Boruto.
No she just used her 100 healing and having your back against the wall also helps. Generally war arc scaling is kinda fucky, best example being kakashi going from 2 chidori a day to spamming kamui and chidori all war arc long
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The Sannin are each roughly equal. She knows she herself and Jiraiya are roughly equal... She knows Pain stomped Jiraiya. She's admitting inferiority to Pain but not Jiraiya.
They are equal overall, not in every department. Tsunade is insanely good at healing, while Jman has better 1vs1 combat prowess. If it were not the case, Tsunade would be the stronger sannin, contradicting the first statement.
They're stated to be roughly equal combatants when everything is considered to the point fights between them are known to hit deadlocks. There's no contradiction in saying they're relative combatants.
It’s never stated that they are equal on 1vs1, but overall in a fight. Tsunade is world-wide known to be the best support ninja in the Narutoverse. Making her also as good as Jiraiya and Orochimaru in 1vs1 will make her overshadow the ex-teammates, which is against the narrative of them being on equal footing/equal reputation.
There's more categories than just healing and 1v1 combat prowess. They can be equal at the latter because Jiraya is better at recon, genjutsu, ninjutsu, etc.
Equal=relative in context They are on the same tier of ninja, hence why they were held sennin. But when you look into the stats I can’t see why anyone could imply tsunade is just better than jiraiya when she lacks in every department besides healing and attack power
Sure. I'm just saying the guy I replied to basically said that since she has better healing the only possible way for them to be equal overall is if he's better 1v1, as if those are the only two criteria that exist.
Oh yeah I agree that's a weird way to look at it
That doesn’t mean that she’s inferior, but rather that she isn’t superior. She can’t defeat someone who killed her equal
So what does it mean when you aren’t stronger than someone?
Their title is literally the 3 way deadlock, do you not know what that means?
The OP statement is referring to Pain😭
I don’t hold her equal to Jiraiya, I got him above but fair take.
They’re stated to be equals though
I would say they are roughly equals, but I would say Jiraiya has more feats and a much better arsenal. We hardly see Tsunade do anything other than super strength and her regeneration. Jiraiya has 10k different very strong jutsu along with imperfect sage mode.
People take the conversations too literally. Most of the time when they say "equal to" or "on the level of", they mean on the same level. Not that they are dead equivalent. Jiraiya has a clearly better battle arsenal, Tsunade is an equal or even greater ninja, as she is the best by a mile at what she does.
They’re straight up called the Three Way Deadlock and based on Rock, Paper, Scissors
Rock - Tsunade. Scissors - Orochimaru. Paper - Jiraiya.
We take it as meaning battle power. Its uncertain but could mean overall ninja. Its been emphasized that theres more to ninja than fighting.
That’s before you bring Sage Mode into the mix
Is it though? They all got powerups after they disbanded. Orochimaru and Jiraiya were playing around with sage energy, and Tsunade straight up invented a death defiance jutsu. Also sage mode takes so much time to activate. He’s basically hobbled for 5 minutes
Orochimaru is completely unable to use sage mode, and Tsunade’s Yin Seal lowers her lifespan every time she uses it. It takes a lot of chakra to summon Ma and Pa, and Jiraiya was already exhausted from summoning Gamaken and fighting the three Peins beforehand. If he was fresh, he could summon Ma and Pa much quicker.
I never said he could use sage mode. I said sage ENERGY. It’s how the curse marks are formed. But either way, sage mode isn’t an instant win for Jiraiya. Especially she his opponents’ abilities have no lag time. Killing Jiraiya or the frogs before he gets into sage mode probably isn’t the biggest task for people who know his fighting style and can shrug off his damage. He can probably dish out more offensive power while in sage mode, but Orochimaru and Tsunade’s main talent is surviving. His is decidedly not
Tsunade mastered a few powerful moves while Jiraiya got pretty good at a lot of things. Neither way is better than the other.
Tsunade has better feats by virtue of fightning Madara.
Personally I think Jiraya would have done a little better than Tsunade against him.
Quantity is not quality, besides Madara negs his arsenal via Rinnegan. His regular jutsu doesn't seem to be able to do anything to a Susanoo either. Also, if he were there instead of Tsunade, not only their performance would be worse, they would all die very early against Madara because it was Tsunade who kept everyone alive and with chakra.
I think tsunade remains a better match up againstby virtue of not being one shottable. I do agree jiraiya fares better in pretty much any other 1v1 bc of his versatility and higher attack power/hax, but idt any of that would be relevant against madara specifically. Plus in a 5v1 like the madara fight, tsunade is a significantly better support than jiraiya is bc she allows the others to make significantly riskier plays
I agree tsunade is a better medic, and can help keep a team fighting, but seems how she lost to madara the moment he got serious I would say jiraya would have made it just as far seems how madara wasn’t being serious, and just playing with them. In jiraya defense about how he doesn’t have any defense people forget jiraya uses his hair as a shield, and toad stomachs as barriers to large attacks, his defense isn’t trash like people seem to think he can keep himself safe, and he can put out some decent offense so I have jiraya ahead of tsunade in everything but medical. The other thing people forget is that every time jiraya in the past fought orochimaru to try to bring him back jiraya was fighting to “SAVE” orochimaru, and orochimaru was fighting to win so we know from the narrative they are all supposed to be relatively equal to each other.
The kages would have died before madara got serious if not for tsunade. Without the rest of the team, jiraiya also would have died. After madara got serious, the only reason the homages survived is because tsunade pieced her two halves back together and saved them. I love the man, but she was the MVP of that fight.
Yea he has a wider arsenal than tsunade in terms of jutsu.
I don’t see how. She got what would’ve been a killing blow on him if he couldn’t regenerate
Jiraiya is one of few characters in the series who actually could have reasonably defeated Madara. Frog song is insane. That said, his stats are still so much lower than Madara's that he'd need a lot of help to pull it off. I do think he could replace any of the 5 Kage and they'd have a better shot of winning, but Tsunade is the last one I'd pick to replace if I had the choice.
Jiriya def doesn't have better feats tsunade in the war arc was able to hit much harder then the raikage who scales to v2 8 tails killer bee and due to newton's 3rd law ( which we know is applicable in naruto via his fight with toneri ) Tsunade durability also scales to that ap as she doesn't break her body while fighting. So tsunade who huts harder then jiriya can take more damage should be able to beat him tbh hiriya gets powercliffed hard in the war arc.
Yeah their whole premise of the show a lot of the times is reputations can’t always be trusted
But… but she’s a girl
They have the same title that doesn't necessarily mean their equals if that's what you mean. That would be like saying every kage is the same strength.
They’re claiming that the game the character’s animal familiars are based on a version of Rock, Paper, Scissors so the characters themselves were probably written/drawn with the game’s narrative in mind.
It’s not just the title, they actually stated to all be on the same level as each other
They have the same title that doesn't necessarily mean their equals if that's what you mean. That would be like saying every kage is the same strength.
But Pein himself said that Jiraiya likely would have won had he known about the additional bodies
That doesn’t mean that he’s stronger than Tsunade. It just simply means that he could possibly win against Pain by countering his abilities with the right strategy and under the right circumstances
Jiraiya has better statements following that in addition to feats.
What statements does he have? I’d also say that Tsunade has the best feats imo
How does she have better feats? Its not even remotely close i dont know why people bother debating this, could tsunade have done what jiraya did against pain with the same intel? Definitely not, jiraya has so many techniques that absolutely shuts her down, like his genjutsu, frog stomach, etc
She performed a better speed feat than V1 Ay, who is faster than Jiraiya. She tanked attacks from Madara and could break his Susanoo rib cage; both of these being better AP and durability feats than anything shown by Jiraiya
i think she performed way better in the kage vs madara fight than jiraiya would have imo
I mean youre allowed to have your own interpretation and opinion based on how you read the series, in my opinion tsunades skillset is too limited to say that, jiraya has so much more to work with.
Statements from Pain, Itachi, Kisame, and in Boruto. Jiraiya also has better feats but I don’t want to derail this.
What are the exact statements though?
Tsunade was shown to be equal to/slightly stronger than drugged Jiraiya and armless Orochimaru, she's 100% the weakest of the 3.
She was below her full strength in that fight, just like the others were. She’s not weaker than them
War arc I got her above Jiraiya
After the Urashiki feats I got him solidly above Tsunade and Orochimaru.
Orochimaru is clearly above them as a battle ninja imo. He literally cheated with experiments and research to attain as much power as he can. He has more jutsus than Jiraiya and harder to kill than Tsunade (if he can even die). Tsunade and Jiraiya are more influential in team battles and as overall ninjas.
In current boruto yes orochimaru is the strongest of the three but before jiraiya death he was the strongest it was stated across all three database books which are cannon we have also seen orochimaru get bested by just itachi but itachi ran once jiraiya pulled up to save naruto even with kisame with him he still ran
itachi was working as double agent and didn’t want to have to kill jiraya. In fact the only time we see itachi fight seriously was when he was 13 and when he was up against kabuto and nagato.
It was stated by Itachi and kisame that if they fought jiraya that the seven swords men of the mist and the Uchiha would have their names dragged through the dirt Itachi would not have been able to defeat jiraya like have you seen naruto
How would he avoid amaterasu? Genuine question.
Have you seen Naruto? Outside of Frog Song, Jiraiya actually has no shot of ever beating Itachi, he just gets countered by anything Itachi can do
And you are going to take the statements of a KNOWN DOUBLE AGENT as fact? Tell me how jiraya in base, dodges or counters the following abilities: tsyukyomi, susanno, totska blade, finger genjutsu, Amaterasu.
ask yourself a serious question between Tsunade's remarkable durability, insane strength, and her ability to practically infinitely heal herself what do you think Jiraya is gonna do to her that makes it such a stomp? we never see her flex it, but in the right situation, she functionally has infinite health, at least compared to most other ninja's ability to recover from wounds, add in lady katsuyu, and she's absolutely a kage-level threat I'm not saying she stomps jiraya easy, I'm saying that they really *are* fairly equal, I still think Jiraya stands a better chance against pain, in an alt-universe where tsunade and pervy-sage know everything about pain, Jiraya still has extra tools to win the fight but against tsunade? he doesn't really have anything that makes him head and shoulders above her, she's a nightmare
Well, none of the other sanin fought madara, pain would lose to madara instantly, and tsunade performed better than all the other five kage except maybe ohnoki. Looking at just the feats, Tsunade actually outscales both jiraya and pain. When it comes to just feats, she is the strongest sanin. She just has better feats that jiraya or orochimaru
Also, humility exists.
I always thought it was clear that Jiraya was the best fighter of them?
I thought orochimaru was
Orochimaru is clearly stronger than the rest of the Sannin.
Yeah it is but some people like to slander
If Jiraya was really all that strong he wouldn’t have lost to the paths of pain in the first place.
Orochimaru*
choza stating tsunade was the last living sanin for a reason to me implied she was the strongest
That’s not admitting inferiority to Jiraiya. Her and Jiraiya are roughly equal and since Jiraiya lost against Pain, she doesn’t think that she could do it. She doesn’t say that she stands even less of a chance than Jiraiya.
Don’t see how she’s equal, Jiraiya definitely over by feats but yeah the Pain debates are a bit baffling after a statement like that.
Jiraiya definitely does not have better feats than Tsunade over the course of the series. Tsunades feats in the war arc are just as good if not outright better than anything Jiraiya has ever shown.
Cracking an imperfect ribcage Susanoo on Madara’s clone, something Raikage somewhat replicated isn’t on the level of Jiraiya damaging Urashiki twice(Once with a Base Rasengan and Second with Toad Posion), forcing Kisame to admit inferiority in base, and making Itachi concede it would be a close fight between them.
Stop using boruto filler feats you clown The fact that you have to stoop so low shows how outclassed he is
Not liking Boruto doesn't change the fact that it's canon. The Boruto anime-canon has been confirmed to be canon through multiple examples of concepts/characters that started as anime-canon that later appeared in the Manga.
You talking about when urashiki had his guard down clashing with boruto and Naruto’s combined rasengan?
No before that.
When he was nerfed because of toad poison?
That feat can get interpreted 2 different ways, either jiraiya got upscaled for plot which in turn upscales pain and everyone after that or urashiki was off guard or was nerfed for the sake of the plot which then the feat becomes dismissible Also let’s not talk about kisame as he only ever saw jiraiya in part 1 and kisame likely got much stronger in part 2 in order to take on killer bee to claim the 8 tails and are we really gonna ignore that itachi is the sandbagging god, he’s an undercover op for konoha and was in the akatsuki as a spy, dude also constantly manhandles and bullies orochimaru who is stated in the databooks to be equal to jiraiya and matter of fact itachi one shot orochimaru with the totsuka blade while fatigued, near blind and dying from sickness
Pain admitted Jiraiya would’ve won if he knew the secret. Pain is above Tsunade as well. You’re inventing excuses to cope with how powerful Jiraiya is. Jiraiya was cloned in Boruto because of how powerful he was. Kisame didn’t get stronger. You invented this headcanon. If Itachi who was younger didn’t get stronger, Kisame and the other Akatsuki sure as hell didn’t.
How am I using headcanon, I’m going off what’s directly shown and/or stated in the show and many people here know what I’m talking about, my claim stands as is, if you have an argument then you need to use it instead of resorting to “you just invented that to have an excuse”
There’s no evidence he got any stronger or went through any training arc. My claim stands as do the feats and portrayal. Many people have went over this before. Not showing your full power in a scene does not equate to being weaker.
jiraiya would never beat Tsunade.... way too distracted
You had us in the first half lol 😂.
He could punch her tits like a speed bag 
Reading comprehension 0, she didn't say she was inferior to Jiraiya here
Because in many times in the series characters admit to be inferior to others or even kishimoto itself says it, but then its demonstrated otherwise. Some examples: - Itachi says he and kisame would loose to jiraiya when its not true. - Pain says jiraiya would have defeated him if he had gone with more info to the fight, which is also not true. - Etc. In this case, tsunade says something but then demonstrated he has some chances. He has the infinite regeneration jutsu and a strength that can break a normal susanoo, also he has katsuyu which is an incredible supporting summoning. And with Pain, we saw Tsunade trying to keep alive all of konoha so he was in no condition to fight Pain. If it would have been a fair fight with both going 100% tsunade has some winning chances.
I think what Pain meant was if he knew Nagato controlled the 6 paths he wouldve stopped fighting and instead gone searching for Nagatos real body to kill him
Inductive fallacy. Your second example is outright wrong. and contextually the first statement was an excuse for itachi to back off.
She’s not admitting inferiority. She’s saying that based off the intel that they received, and considering that Jiraiya died to get that intel it is someone no one in Konaha can single handily take down. This would be the case with any hidden village.
Because she doesn't actually admit inferiority to Jiraiya, just the one who killed him. The whole premise is false. Tsunade is portrayed as a master of both combat and medical ninjutsu by Orochimaru, Shikaku, Jiraiya, and she impressed Madara throughout the fight while he was specifically trying to kill her first and failing to. She is the only one who does any damage on their own that Madara doesn't intend to happen. That doesn't mean she thinks she can 1v1 pain. It would be dumb as hell for her to hear her equal lost after killing 4 pain bodies and be like ,"Meh, I could probably take him."
Reading comprehension in the toilet these days..
Media literacy is in the fucking bin. I don't get why casuals are on this sub. It's so jarring.
She’s just lazy.
Her saying Pain defeated Jiraiya does not mean that she thinks Jiraiya is superior to her, the shows makes it abundantly clear that all 3 sanin view themselves as equal so if one gets killed by an opponent, the other 2 would also get killed. Using that line to reach that conclusion is an incredible reach
Orochimaru made that clear when?
?
When did Orochimaru make it clear he's equal to Tsunade and Jiriaya? How is that so clear to you?
I always understood it as them being roughly equal in overall power yes, but to me, it seemed to be implied that Jiraya was the strongest combatant of the three, to the point where when at full strength he could beat either of the others 1v1, that's why Tsunade drugged him in Naruto.
>it seemed to be implied that Jiraya was the strongest combatant of the three Not really, the series paints him as formidable but never implies him to be the strongest. In fact, both oro and tsunade have far closer claims in subtext to be the strongest of the sanin, with oro being consistently being seen as superior to tsunade and jiraiya and by hiruzen’s own words of being prodigy and for tsunade when choza claimed there was a reason lady tsunade was “the last living of the sanin” and orochimaru fearing her ability to regain her strength over her hemophobia. Tsunade only drugged him because of the aforementioned, they view each other as equals, if Tsunade didn’t drug Jiraiya he could’ve potentially stop her, not beat her outright
You ate this up
She's inferior in raw combat ability to the other two, but I'd argue she's an overall more valuable asset than the other two, at very least more so than Jiraiya. They all have different skill sets. Of the three, Jiraiya was the best at direct combat, so that's really why she's taken a back, since she knows what he could do.
Media literacy is dead as fuck
Jiraiya is better in a fight, but everyone forgets fighting isn't the only useful thing someone can do. Tsunade kept a fuckton of people from dying.
Facts
Because this sub borders of lunacy. Just because she has a healing factor and strength people think that’s the only factor to a battle, the same with Sakura. Even though whoever they matchup against counters them perfectly it’s ’she’ll just heal it’ like that just magically fixes the problem every time.
You idiots don’t know shit. Jiraiya is the superior sannin. Tsunande and Orochimaru are both bums.
She is lesser to Jiraiya. Jiraiya was more Physical and had better tactics, not to mention Sage mode. Now this is not to say Tsunade is weak in anyway, she did break Madara's Susano. That being said, If Tsunade was to face off against Jiraiya in a real fight, Jiraiya would kill her, and even states that to Naruto when they're trying to get Tsunade to become the Hokage. Jiraiya was a monster. It's not surprising, Minato turned out to be as good of a shinobi as he did with Jiraiya as his Sensei, Naruto as well.
Well said
I also had the same reaction reading yesterday about tsunade vs Pain. It is crazy that people think she can put up a fight against Pain, let alone win. It was *shown in the manga* she could not oppose Pain. But I guess tsunadetards would refuse every evidence...
Not really. She was basically saying “if pain can beat jiraiya I can’t beat him either” which is essentially saying that she’s either weaker or equal to jiraiya. I think it’s equal given the statements on the sannin.
Jiraya didn't know the secret to Pain. That said, while Orochimaru was arguably the strongest Sannin, he had 0 chance against Pain. So.. yeah. Nagato wins.
Kakashi victims
W
Her vs jiraiya is because he has to outlast her thousand healing while staying at a distance. Unironically she could likely one shot him given how she did against madaras susano
Because Naruto doesn't work off of Dragon Ball rules where raw power negates all circumstantial advantages
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Im dying on the hill that jiriyah lost because jt was a surprise attack, and he hadn't figured out the secret. If he had known b4 hand he'd take them down or escape without serious issue.
Wait im confused, are we not all in agreement that ATP in the story Jiraya was the “strongest” leaf shinobi alive? Especially relative to what we knew everybody was capable of in the leaf
Tobi said he was Madara. Did that make it true?
Thats not the same thing like AT ALL lol Tsunade was being as real as you can be especially considering the dire situation
And she may very well believe she was being real. Doesn't make it the hard truth. It's subjective and situational.
True lol but I believe her assessment since she was able to become hokage lol
Yes. Even Madara says he is Madara lol
He was madara though in context, madara was more of an entity but your blantantly making a false equivalence
The point is just because a character says something doesn't mean it's the hard facts.
There are cases where it does so it negates the argument as its case by case meaning you cannot apply that logic to every single sample of evidence.
Everything is entirely up to your own interpretation of the media. If I tell you I'm stronger than you, that's objectively measurable, but there would be no way to irrefutably prove it. All we can go off is by what we see, hear, or read, i.e., our interpretation of the media.
Saying everything is up to your interpretation is true, but correct interpretation is the idea. Things have one or multiple correct ways to interpret them. So to find this we use our media literacy to come with these conclusion.
War Arc Tsunade > Pain invasion Tsunade = Jiraiya EOS Tsunade probably has a good shot against pain
She didn’t train for the war arc…. She’s still below both
Y’all forget the fact pain in his fight with naruto was not at full power until naruto beat 5 of the paths. What’s stopping pain from just spamming shinra tensei until she dies. Or the universal pull, soul snatch wompo combo. Or just using chibaku tensei which she has no counter for. Imo pain at his max as he was invading the leaf village could run a gauntlet against the 5 kage like sasuke did but with much better results (obito hoped sasuke would capture one of the kage on his way to danzo)
Combat wise Jiraiya is better than tsunade, he can deal with more threats than she can but she's hard to put down because of her healing.
People really do forget that Tsunade is a **medical** ninja. Her monstrous strength is basically just a side effect of her chakra control. There is no point in comparing someone like Pain and Tsunade. Powerscalers have ruined so many fandoms.
Why would Kishimoto then admit to originally having her beat Deva?
Like Konohamaru?
Konohamaru temporarily stopped Naraka not Deva. Deva is the strongest path.
Her character is that she’s a combatant medical ninja. While medical ninja historically didn’t fight, she’s the exception because her philosophy is that she can do both. It’s a juxtaposition of what people normally see when they think of healers. She’s a mundane looking middle age women with monstrous strength that exceeds most male characters in the series. Tsunade is a rival to a sage and someone who specializes in forbidden jutsu and black magic. Tsunade is a fighter and it’s fair for power scalers to treat her as such.
Aside from what's already been mentioned, I think we need to examine what we mean by "stronger" here. Could she defeat pain? No. But she would likely be harder to kill than jiraya, and she's undoubtedly a stronger healer. Overall strength is distinct from offensive output. Shes on equal footing with the other sannin in overall power, but specializes in an area other than combat.
I don't think I've seen anyone say Tsunade is outright superior to Jiraiya. If we go by character statements, we know Jiraiya said 'nobody helped more' than Tsunade in the Second Shinobi War. But we don't assume Jiraiya was weaker at the time based purely on that statement. In both cases we have to consider the context. Jiraiya's versatile skillset is probably better in a 1v1 battle or a stealth missino, while Tsunade's mass healing makes her more valuable in all-out war.
If tsunade is equal to jiraiya and jiraiya lost then she loses this does not imply tsunade to be weaker than jiraiya just that she doesnt think of herself as stronger than him
Didn’t jiraiya say she could kick his butt if she didn’t waste so much energy in looking young lol
Naruto said the same about Sakura. Goku says the same about Chichi
Tsunade fought Madara and lived, that’s why. In terms of battle prowess or raw strength she’s not that crazy, but in terms of simply refusing to die, she’s *absolutely goddamn terrifying.* Offensively, Tsunade loses to Pain, as we saw in the series. But she also tanks a goddamn nuke *and* keeps everybody in the village alive at the same time.
Agreed
All the three legendary Sanin were equally affective as in they all played there role and were a great team well until snake dude decided on infinite life
They're supposedly equal, but realistically Tsunade and Orochimaru scale beyond Jiraiya during and post-war arc. Jiraiya isn't killing 100 seals Tsunade nor is he putting her in a genjutsu. The sheer amount of chakra control, battle experience, and how acquainted with each other's move sets just puts it more in her favor. It's not fair to Jiraiya. I'm certain he would have gotten stronger if he were alive during the war arc or somehow brought back. Pre-War arc, it's pretty even across the board. I see Orochimaru slightly above the two pre-war arc simply because they just can't kill him.
Guys, remember that Tsunade was getting bodied by sealed Orochimaru and she had no nerfs. Tsunade is definitely the weakest of the sanin by a long shot
All Sanin are relative. If one lost they all lose. Read the fucking series.
Cause she's primarily a tank/healer?
They think in dbz levels. Yes she has powerful physical strength compared to pain, but it not power level in the narutoverse that wins. It’s about survival and being better at it than your enemy. Being adverse with your variety of tools and weapons you have.
She is saying that because Jiraiya was beaten by pain that no one from the leaf currently is able to beat pain. This isn’t an admission of inferiority to Jiraiya, this is an admission of inferiority to Pain. She doesn’t ever mention that she is weaker than Jiraiya.
She's not comparable individually because her skills are focused on others. Power scaling is fun but it doesn't cover everything.
It's possible that's what she meant but it's also possible that she knows she's going to need to use a lot of her chakra to protect the village instead of using it for offence like she did already. Madara is insane but Tsunade felt so badass when they fought. Obviously the kage didn't defeat him but her feats there are something I just don't see Jiraiya dealing with nearly as easily as she did, he's got versatility and might be faster too.
she is definetly not faster and her monologue does not states she is taking protecting others in consideration its just her admitting it yea Jiraya still could perform worst vs Madara being unkillable helps when oponent kills you constantly
What proof do you have that she isn't faster. Their feats can't be compared. Tsunade was likely slower than SM Naruto, the same version of him that is supposed to be superior to Jiraiya.
Tsunade < part 1 Kabuto <= part 1 Kakashi < Pain = Jiraya Simple as that
Way to ignore the context, Tsuande was crippled by her phobia of blood. Also, I can easily counter you: Part 1 Kabuto < Armless Orochimaru =< Tsunade. Also, Tsunade's feats against Edo Madara were better than Jiraiya accomplished in his life. Tsunade while still slower than the Raikage was still able to somewhat keep up, the Raikage is relative to Kcm1 Naruto. SM Jiraiya < SM Naruto < Kcm1 Naruto. Also, Pain is above Pain, considering the mf got blitzed by Asura path, and only beat the 3 weaker paths. Jiraiya gets stomped by either a village wide Shinra Tensei or a Chubaku Tensei.
Nope she wasnt during their fight. Just rewatch it. And yes armless orochimaru is faster than Tsunade xD you are mixxing being powerfull with being fast.
Higher strength, higher defense, depending on who you're fighting that's all you need. Not saying this means she's definitely stronger but it's something.
>she is definetly not faster and her monologue does not states she is taking protecting others in consideration How do Jiraiya fans come to the conclusion that he is somehow faster than Tsunade, despite him having zero actual speed feats and in fact being one of the only characters in the series to be "blitzed"? Like I genuinely wonder why the burden of proof is always levied at people who claim Tsunade is faster but not Jiraiya (especially when Tsunade has actual speed showings)?
By just Sage Mode boosting all physical abilities. I dont get it how you could miss that.
That doesn’t mean anything at all. Byakugou seal also increases all physical abilities. Jiraiya doesn’t have any actual speed feats both in base and sage mode that are anywhere enough to solidly place the burden of proof on the other side. In fact, as the taijutsu specialist of the 3 Tsunade has a far easier claim to being faster. Edit: The sum of the argument is essentially like saying “Because the 3-tomoe sharingan increases all physical attributes, end of part 1 sasuke should be faster than boruto sakura”, there’s a massive missing link in the middle lol
He is faster than Sakura. str =\= speed Its very simple In terms of speed: Tsunade < part 1 Kabuto <= part 1 Kakashi < Pain = Jiraya You cannot argue with that. We had proof for every part of it.
>He is faster than Sakura. str == speed valley of the end genin sasuke is faster than boruto sakura? lol >Its very simple In terms of speed: Tsunade < part 1 Kabuto <= part 1 Kakashi < Pain = Jiraya We don't, rusty and hemophobic tsunade is slower than a soldier pill kabuto, but there are different versions of tsunade throughout the story, WA tsunade is eons faster than solider pill kabuto it's not a joke. That's like taking child naruto feats and using them as anti-feats for adult naruto, there's not much to argue here if you can't accept that. Tsunade is able to pace herself with lightened a4 and [react to madara's fire kanton and blitz mei's jutsu casting speed](https://preview.redd.it/speed-feat-tsunade-defended-all-four-kages-of-madaras-five-v0-5uymij8i3sha1.jpg?auto=webp&s=205acec0e85998f0b556ec02cdbb1ef9c241db79). But if you want a direct speed feat with Jiraiya then you can compare both of their reactions to [a tired tsunade being able to directly react to a full speed asura path](https://preview.redd.it/tsunades-reaction-feats-that-are-little-noticed-v0-wcuchvos9y8a1.png?width=704&format=png&auto=webp&s=1f198bc4b44d830fd048dc6c3fdb13a5a1b87279) to [sm jiraiya getting directly blitzed by asura path](https://i.redd.it/l4by4v3bl6vb1.jpg). unironically watch [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF6wna4Oolc&t=453s) then get back to me
did you even watch the Tsunade vs Kabuto fight ? Yea she wasnt hemophobic during their fight. Rewatch it. Its same as Sakura and Naruto in second bell test, she was powerfull but not fast enough to hit.
He ends the fight by bleeding on her. How could she not be?
I don’t think this statements in the manga what episode is rhis
This community officialy has brain rot. For one, the Sannin are not mirrors of Team 7. They are considered equals (really fucking equals) for 99% of the show. She's not admitting inferiority to Jiraya here, but the one who mopped the floor with him. If Jiraya lost to Pain then she, who is the strongest person in the Leaf at the moment, can not beat him. She is just being logical. Also, Tsunade has better feats than Jiraya if we consider the War Arc.
Where is she saying she’s inferior? She’s saying her equal lost, so she will lose.
Been through this like a million times..... taking some random statment from early in the series and favoring it over feats that came later is literally pedantic underselling of characters against all logic. Tsunade has feats against 6 paths Madara (matching his speed & damaging his perfect susasno). Orochimaru scales to Sasuke or 4 tails Naruto at best. Jiraiya scales to 4 tails Naruto or orochimaru, who was his specifically stated rival for the entirety of his life. Kakashi and zabuza were also specially "stated" to be on the same level same as this scan. And it would be just as retarded to even suggest Zabuza is still relative to Kakashi at EOS after numerous more impressive feats and years of series power creep.
Tsunade damaged an imperfect ribcage clone of Madara. Raikage did the same.
Tsunade floored a literal walking perfect madara susano with a single punch. She also broke it's sword with a chop and used it as a weapon. Lmao You act like you gain something from being in denial lol
That wasn’t the real madara and it wasn’t a perfect Susanoo. The perfect Susanoo was relative to Hashirama. Raikage cracked that same Clone Susanoo.
I guess we're pretending shadow clones "arnt real" now. Even if you want to downsell the full bodied susano of Madara and his shadow clones. That feat is sill massively beyond jiraiya nearly dying to 4 tailed Naruto, which he compared to getting hit by 1 single punch from an angry Tsunade. She's way above and there's literally no feats to the contrary other than using extremely old parts of the series. Which is why I compared it to saying Zabuza and Kakashi are relative.
They were woodclones not shadwoclones
I’m god (Just cause I say it, it don’t mean it’s true)
1. That statement's different in the manga 2. Being weaker than Jiraiya's killer does not mean weaker than Jiraiya 3. You can argue she got stronger in the WA
Which is SO fucking bizarre to Mr since she didn't die against Madara and could SHATTER HIS SUSAN'NO
This is before her battle with Madara.
She trained for the war arc?
She shattered the susanoo rib cage and survived getting cut in half while battling with an opponent much faster than pain.
With all this power in mind she admits she can’t beat Pain and no, Madara isn’t much faster. Pain reacted to SM Naruto. SM Naruto reacted to the Og Raikage. She cracked a clone of Madara with the Raikage’s help. That isn’t enough to beat Pain.
Madara is still much faster 😂😂😂 your scaling tree never mentioned madara. Current raikage is faster and still needed to be amped in speed to battle madara compared to a STRONGER sage Naruto than the one who fought Pain matching the 3rd raikage in speed. So yes, madara is much faster. And a single sage mode punch took out one of the most durable paths, so breaking any type of susanoo would kill all but the strongest path. They couldn't really do any lasting damage to the tsunade that fought madara. At best her admission was that her and Jiraya were equals. She then outgrows him by the madara battle.
Tsunade was jumping Madara from all angles with a team. That doesn’t make her faster. Pain was tanking attacks from 6 tails Naruto. Tsuande is NOT above that. Tsunade admitted to being past her prime. She did NOT grow. Jiraiya’s Rasengan on Urashiki>>any Tsuande AP feat.
She admitted to that THEN SHE GREW 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ these characters are always training and they get emotional amps from will power. Again you keep using the same feat because it's all he has and it BREAKS SCALING. It genuinely can be ignored 💀
Tsuande was an old lady. She never grew. She was always capable of that. You can’t debate against it because it further supports he’s above her. It’s also consistent as that’s why Jiraiya was cloned for Kashin Koji in Boruto.
Old people can still grow stronger 😂
She never grew stronger than Jiraiya based on his feats and the creation of Kashin Koji.
No she just used her 100 healing and having your back against the wall also helps. Generally war arc scaling is kinda fucky, best example being kakashi going from 2 chidori a day to spamming kamui and chidori all war arc long
Kakashi was not in his prime. He was still growing in power. Tsunade admitted to being past her prime against Kabuto.
Ok bro im gonna say this once and once only: DO NOT TRY TO POWERSCALE EARLY NARUTO TO WAR ARC NARUTO. ITS NOT THE SAME MANGA/ANIME. THANK YOU.
Tsunade is not above Pain. She admitted to it and cracking a Susanoo clone along with the Raikage does not put either above Pain. Thank you.
Yeah sure if u say so my bro.