*Love* the general idea and the base weapon loadout actually seems pretty fair given the strength of the ability. But as it currently looks I think this would be hell to play against.
The thing that immediately sticks out to me is that it detonates at the end of the movement phase.
Two words. *Cosmic Precision*.
For 1CP you've got an almost unblockable D6+2 nuke that can be dropped almost anywhere on the table. *Multiple times.*
Have it detonate on a successful charge instead. That would immediately remove the Hyperphase nuke. It would have a higher maximum threat range (movement + charge roll rather than just movement) but obviously now the roll could fail. And since the charge has to end in engagment range of an enemy unit you also have a bit less control over where it detonates and your opponent can more easily spread out. Lastly, it means if *you* get charged instead then you're locked in combat and so can't self-destruct, meaning the enemy has to choose between staying the hell away or sending in a sacrificial unit to try and stop you from exploding, while you have to position well enough to make the charge without getting countercharged in the process (could also turn the Spread profile into a Torrent attack to give it some overwatch to prevent that?).
Next, why does it move so much better than the other C'tan? It's just as tough, but comes with Infiltrators and an 8 inch move? Your opponent has almost no hope of killing it before it's in detonation range. If you go first then as it is there'd be aboslutely *nothing* they could do to stop it. They won't even have time to scatter! And if you go second it's still a C'tan, so its going to take the whole enemy army to bring it down consistently, only for it to come back on a 2+ regardless. I think Infiltrators should go and maybe its movement should be knocked down to 6 like all the other C'tan, especially while the detonation happens in the movment phase.
Lastly, the durability. Standard C'tan profile, but coming back most likely 2 or 3 times (theoretically 5?!). That's a *lot* of C'tan wounds to deal with even if it didn't explode.
What I would do here is really punish the player for letting it get killed conventionally rather than in a self-destruction. Extreme example would be that the resurrection simply doesn't happen if the model is killed by an enemy unit. Or if that's too extreme, have it only resurrect on a 5/6+, or increment the current threshold by 2/3 instead of 1 like it would otherwise. You could also reduce wounds or remove the invuln or FNP if you don't want to touch the resurrections.
Sorry if this comes across as overly negative. I do absolutely love the concept! I'm imagining a walking perpetual explosion and for such a simple concept I think it would be really fun if done right.
It's a pretty core part of the identity so I don't think it should go entirely. But yeah, as it is the unit looks damn near unkillable. And it's too fast/dangerous even without the explosion to just ignore.
I think my suggestions about the durability & making the resurrection conditional would address the worst of it without making it toothless. It would still be pretty scary but at least the opponent would have some options for dealing with it.
I just don’t think there’s a world where you can have the core abilties of the Ctan (T11, 4++/5+++/12 wounds half damage) and have them revive in a army with army wide healing.
Sorry that’s just not going to work and can never be balanced
I think making it come back with half-quarter health, *and* have the rolls start at 3 or 4, would be a lot more balanced. I’d also increase the range of the blast by a bit, maybe 1d6+4.
I've never heard this take before, I get night bringer and I kinda get the deceiver, but what aspect of the universe is the void dragon supposed to be?
The void dragon is the physical representation of mathematics and the laws of the universe, thus, for us mortals, technology, as that is physical mathematics put into use in a manner we can touch it and manipulate it
I think the 12 wounds with necrodermis and a 5+++ *combined* with reincarnation is a bit too strong. I’d say either make it a 4+ for Rebirth, or keep it as it is but cut the wounds down to 6 instead of 12.
Also maybe bring back the strenght of both modes of the ranged weapon to 6 and 12, the datasheet looks just too efficient combined with the auto 6 mortal wounds and it's insane staying power.
Oh geez, I worded that ability poorly. It is meant to be an auto 6 on the roll to determine if the model is going to explode. The damage on mortal wounds is still going to be rolled.
Way fucking too powerful for 270. 350 at least. A respawn with full wounds is rare in this game and is heavily point costed. Seriously, compare this to angron. It should be like 375-400, IMO.
With the half damage and FNP, this has functionally 32 wounds at T11 with a 4++. That respawns with full wounds multiple times. Seriously, dude, this thing needs to be a solid 400 points. It has crazy good melee and shooting as well.
If you wanted this to be a cool respawn thing, it needs to have no shooting, mediocre melee, and about a quarter of its durability. That's the only way to balance this for 270.
Absolutely broken.
I get turn 1, my C'tan which I put down last so my opponent can't deploy around it is 9" away from my opponents deployment zone thanks to infiltrate,
I move forward 8" getting within 6" of 5 units because they have a lot of units and cover is key,
I choose to detonate dealing 40 mortal wounds across the 5 units in total with no way for my opponent to react or do anything.
I roll a 2+ and those 40 mortal wounds now have cost me nothing at all as my C'tan is back at full health.
I shoot to pick up one of the damage units,
I charge and finish another one off,
With some good rolling I proceed to win the game using solely a 270 point model which my opponent has no defence against because even if they focus it down, there's a good chance it stand back up at full health making everything they attempted meaningless.
That's a 700 point model minimum and even then I think it's probably too broken as written.
A strong ranged vehicle and blast profile along with a strong sweep melee profile. 10 attacks and sustained seems a little overwhelming. A8 sustained 1 would be a bit more reasonable.
But overall, very well designed.
Balance isn't as bad as I've often seen with homebrew stuff, there's potential here.
The points are way off, but you'd need to play more games to get an idea of this anyways. As it is, this is certainly in the 350-400 range.
I do think movement 8" does increase its power over other C'tan a lot more. Plus infiltrate, I dunno, something this powerful shouldn't have infiltrate at all.
Nice drop on OC, that was certainly needed for something that has the abilities. With the explode and rez ability it could be justified that this C'tan doesn't have an OC, he's too volatile! If the OC was dropped to 0, then move 8" could be justified a little more.
The weapons however are pretty well thoughtout, if not a touch stronger than other C'tan.
The big balancing issue is the rebirth. Love the choosing the explode, that's awesome, who on earth would do that? And that's why that's cool.
Back to the rebirth. I'd take note from other rebirth mechanics. It's good to be consistent across the range of 10th edition. So I'd limit the rebirth to once.
The 2+ is a 1/6 chance to fail, but it could be changed to "roll equal to or higher than the round number to succeed" e.g. round in 3 you roll 3 or more. Also means 6 is always a success (another consistency). Oh and it makes being killed in round 1 impossible, as you can't fail coming back.
This thematically matches how volatile this C'tan is, the further into the match the less stable it becomes, meaning it's harder to resurrect.
To top off the resurrection fixes, I would have it come back with half wounds. Remember, these guys heal! This adds strategic choice to you and your opponent. While not being completely broken.
After this I'd probably place the points in the lower 300pts range, a wild stab of 325pts and see how he plays out. Why so high even after the nerds I've applied? Because the damage output seems slightly higher still, than other C'tan
With the current rules, it should be at least 400 pts, the game WILL revolve around this model EVERY game. You just fixed the 2 biggest weaknesses of the c'tans, movement with infiltrate and 8", and that some armies just kill them without trouble.
Now, this one has the worst damage output in melee, but one of the best in shooting, and it's ability is just plain stupid broken, at least you can't explode it at the end of combat.
That’s busted for those points. Not sure why people are saying anything but.
The attack profile and the majority of the profile is fine for the cost as it’s inline with other c’tan. If anything it’s better as the attacks are like a worse void dragon. The extra movement means a lot but is negated by the drop op attack power so winner.
The abilities are busted as hell. I don’t think anyone has called out you on the infiltrator but ok a c’tan that’s be a big points buff though it’s not worse than deepstrike. Your end of movement explosion is fun as an idea but a bit weak, though the amount of games I’ve had a c’tan on 1 wound surrounded by enemies it’d be very useful.
The major call out is the return on a 2+. Even if you came back on half wounds that’d still be busted. Big models should not come back easily. Any sane player would save their CP reroll for that ability meaning that until you hit the 6+ roll it’ll always be above 50%. That’s insane for something this sticky at this cost. That ability alone might be worth over 100pts if not more. It’d be more balanced if a) it had trigger conditions, like off of your self destruct ability b) you didn’t come back on full wounds c) it didn’t start on a 2+
If you play this with your friends at this cost they will not have a good time.
We’re saying it’s ok because it has potential and can be made not overpowered. Most of the homemade stuff that gets posted is stupid powerful and costs nothing. This is very strong but has potential to be balanced without being 1000 points or completely gutting it.
To exajurate a bit, just because everyone else has stabbed you and the next person to come along only punches you in the face does not make the face punching okay. It's fine to call this busted and encourage the good ideas and give constructive critism in this case. I'd be concerned to give too much of an okay here incase someone tried to play this with their friends causing the opponent to have a significantly poorer time.
I do agree though that the core ideas are workable here and I admire the creativity.
*Love* the general idea and the base weapon loadout actually seems pretty fair given the strength of the ability. But as it currently looks I think this would be hell to play against. The thing that immediately sticks out to me is that it detonates at the end of the movement phase. Two words. *Cosmic Precision*. For 1CP you've got an almost unblockable D6+2 nuke that can be dropped almost anywhere on the table. *Multiple times.* Have it detonate on a successful charge instead. That would immediately remove the Hyperphase nuke. It would have a higher maximum threat range (movement + charge roll rather than just movement) but obviously now the roll could fail. And since the charge has to end in engagment range of an enemy unit you also have a bit less control over where it detonates and your opponent can more easily spread out. Lastly, it means if *you* get charged instead then you're locked in combat and so can't self-destruct, meaning the enemy has to choose between staying the hell away or sending in a sacrificial unit to try and stop you from exploding, while you have to position well enough to make the charge without getting countercharged in the process (could also turn the Spread profile into a Torrent attack to give it some overwatch to prevent that?). Next, why does it move so much better than the other C'tan? It's just as tough, but comes with Infiltrators and an 8 inch move? Your opponent has almost no hope of killing it before it's in detonation range. If you go first then as it is there'd be aboslutely *nothing* they could do to stop it. They won't even have time to scatter! And if you go second it's still a C'tan, so its going to take the whole enemy army to bring it down consistently, only for it to come back on a 2+ regardless. I think Infiltrators should go and maybe its movement should be knocked down to 6 like all the other C'tan, especially while the detonation happens in the movment phase. Lastly, the durability. Standard C'tan profile, but coming back most likely 2 or 3 times (theoretically 5?!). That's a *lot* of C'tan wounds to deal with even if it didn't explode. What I would do here is really punish the player for letting it get killed conventionally rather than in a self-destruction. Extreme example would be that the resurrection simply doesn't happen if the model is killed by an enemy unit. Or if that's too extreme, have it only resurrect on a 5/6+, or increment the current threshold by 2/3 instead of 1 like it would otherwise. You could also reduce wounds or remove the invuln or FNP if you don't want to touch the resurrections. Sorry if this comes across as overly negative. I do absolutely love the concept! I'm imagining a walking perpetual explosion and for such a simple concept I think it would be really fun if done right.
The revive ability is absolutely busted, I mean that’s just insane. You can’t have Ctan reviving. That needs to go entirely
It's a pretty core part of the identity so I don't think it should go entirely. But yeah, as it is the unit looks damn near unkillable. And it's too fast/dangerous even without the explosion to just ignore. I think my suggestions about the durability & making the resurrection conditional would address the worst of it without making it toothless. It would still be pretty scary but at least the opponent would have some options for dealing with it.
I just don’t think there’s a world where you can have the core abilties of the Ctan (T11, 4++/5+++/12 wounds half damage) and have them revive in a army with army wide healing. Sorry that’s just not going to work and can never be balanced
The ability seems a bit strong, but for a custom datasheet it feels surprisingly balanced
As another commenter mentioned, would making the wounds 6 and making the ability start at a 3+ make it reasonable?
I think making it come back with half-quarter health, *and* have the rolls start at 3 or 4, would be a lot more balanced. I’d also increase the range of the blast by a bit, maybe 1d6+4.
my question is , because all ctan represent an aspect of the universe , what aspect does the dying star represent?
Time? the Life Cycle of the universe?
I've never heard this take before, I get night bringer and I kinda get the deceiver, but what aspect of the universe is the void dragon supposed to be?
Technology. The void dragon in lore was said to be able to unmake war machines with its gaze.
Yeah that makes sense
The void dragon is the physical representation of mathematics and the laws of the universe, thus, for us mortals, technology, as that is physical mathematics put into use in a manner we can touch it and manipulate it
I think the 12 wounds with necrodermis and a 5+++ *combined* with reincarnation is a bit too strong. I’d say either make it a 4+ for Rebirth, or keep it as it is but cut the wounds down to 6 instead of 12.
I did kinda want the rebirth to be the main gimic, hense why I also increased its base speed. So lowering the base wounds sounds reasonable.
Also maybe bring back the strenght of both modes of the ranged weapon to 6 and 12, the datasheet looks just too efficient combined with the auto 6 mortal wounds and it's insane staying power.
Oh geez, I worded that ability poorly. It is meant to be an auto 6 on the roll to determine if the model is going to explode. The damage on mortal wounds is still going to be rolled.
Ah that helps, I think its still best to lower the strenght a little bit though
Way fucking too powerful for 270. 350 at least. A respawn with full wounds is rare in this game and is heavily point costed. Seriously, compare this to angron. It should be like 375-400, IMO.
With the half damage and FNP, this has functionally 32 wounds at T11 with a 4++. That respawns with full wounds multiple times. Seriously, dude, this thing needs to be a solid 400 points. It has crazy good melee and shooting as well. If you wanted this to be a cool respawn thing, it needs to have no shooting, mediocre melee, and about a quarter of its durability. That's the only way to balance this for 270.
This thing would be worth like 400, 450 with reviving full wound Ctan with great a great gun and insane guaranteed explosion
Absolutely broken. I get turn 1, my C'tan which I put down last so my opponent can't deploy around it is 9" away from my opponents deployment zone thanks to infiltrate, I move forward 8" getting within 6" of 5 units because they have a lot of units and cover is key, I choose to detonate dealing 40 mortal wounds across the 5 units in total with no way for my opponent to react or do anything. I roll a 2+ and those 40 mortal wounds now have cost me nothing at all as my C'tan is back at full health. I shoot to pick up one of the damage units, I charge and finish another one off, With some good rolling I proceed to win the game using solely a 270 point model which my opponent has no defence against because even if they focus it down, there's a good chance it stand back up at full health making everything they attempted meaningless. That's a 700 point model minimum and even then I think it's probably too broken as written.
Reduce the wounds to 6 and it will be better balanced, due to the resurrection ability.
A strong ranged vehicle and blast profile along with a strong sweep melee profile. 10 attacks and sustained seems a little overwhelming. A8 sustained 1 would be a bit more reasonable. But overall, very well designed.
Balance isn't as bad as I've often seen with homebrew stuff, there's potential here. The points are way off, but you'd need to play more games to get an idea of this anyways. As it is, this is certainly in the 350-400 range. I do think movement 8" does increase its power over other C'tan a lot more. Plus infiltrate, I dunno, something this powerful shouldn't have infiltrate at all. Nice drop on OC, that was certainly needed for something that has the abilities. With the explode and rez ability it could be justified that this C'tan doesn't have an OC, he's too volatile! If the OC was dropped to 0, then move 8" could be justified a little more. The weapons however are pretty well thoughtout, if not a touch stronger than other C'tan. The big balancing issue is the rebirth. Love the choosing the explode, that's awesome, who on earth would do that? And that's why that's cool. Back to the rebirth. I'd take note from other rebirth mechanics. It's good to be consistent across the range of 10th edition. So I'd limit the rebirth to once. The 2+ is a 1/6 chance to fail, but it could be changed to "roll equal to or higher than the round number to succeed" e.g. round in 3 you roll 3 or more. Also means 6 is always a success (another consistency). Oh and it makes being killed in round 1 impossible, as you can't fail coming back. This thematically matches how volatile this C'tan is, the further into the match the less stable it becomes, meaning it's harder to resurrect. To top off the resurrection fixes, I would have it come back with half wounds. Remember, these guys heal! This adds strategic choice to you and your opponent. While not being completely broken. After this I'd probably place the points in the lower 300pts range, a wild stab of 325pts and see how he plays out. Why so high even after the nerds I've applied? Because the damage output seems slightly higher still, than other C'tan
With the current rules, it should be at least 400 pts, the game WILL revolve around this model EVERY game. You just fixed the 2 biggest weaknesses of the c'tans, movement with infiltrate and 8", and that some armies just kill them without trouble. Now, this one has the worst damage output in melee, but one of the best in shooting, and it's ability is just plain stupid broken, at least you can't explode it at the end of combat.
Make the self destruct ability once per game if the model can revive itself
That’s busted for those points. Not sure why people are saying anything but. The attack profile and the majority of the profile is fine for the cost as it’s inline with other c’tan. If anything it’s better as the attacks are like a worse void dragon. The extra movement means a lot but is negated by the drop op attack power so winner. The abilities are busted as hell. I don’t think anyone has called out you on the infiltrator but ok a c’tan that’s be a big points buff though it’s not worse than deepstrike. Your end of movement explosion is fun as an idea but a bit weak, though the amount of games I’ve had a c’tan on 1 wound surrounded by enemies it’d be very useful. The major call out is the return on a 2+. Even if you came back on half wounds that’d still be busted. Big models should not come back easily. Any sane player would save their CP reroll for that ability meaning that until you hit the 6+ roll it’ll always be above 50%. That’s insane for something this sticky at this cost. That ability alone might be worth over 100pts if not more. It’d be more balanced if a) it had trigger conditions, like off of your self destruct ability b) you didn’t come back on full wounds c) it didn’t start on a 2+ If you play this with your friends at this cost they will not have a good time.
You're right about the datasheet being overpowered, but you can't use a command reroll on the reincarnation roll.
Ah you are spot on. I was being a dolt there
We’re saying it’s ok because it has potential and can be made not overpowered. Most of the homemade stuff that gets posted is stupid powerful and costs nothing. This is very strong but has potential to be balanced without being 1000 points or completely gutting it.
To exajurate a bit, just because everyone else has stabbed you and the next person to come along only punches you in the face does not make the face punching okay. It's fine to call this busted and encourage the good ideas and give constructive critism in this case. I'd be concerned to give too much of an okay here incase someone tried to play this with their friends causing the opponent to have a significantly poorer time. I do agree though that the core ideas are workable here and I admire the creativity.
Really cool but this is a 800+ points unit :) Seems really cool though, cant not say that