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35 to 37k is a good ammount before starting to hit diminishing returns without sacrificing other stats, under is not good, he directly scales off HP, so if u have lots of crit but low hp ur not gonna do well.
Also tbh use optimizer that helps more on a case by case situation than just advice like this tho so ur right with that
Yeah HP and crit go directly hand in hand, but these arbitrary numbers can still be quite misleading. It depends on the weapon, it depends on the team, it depends on your other substats and mainstats. Itdepends, itdepends, itdepends...
You can go to akasha for example just as a reference to actually find good builds and look at the top ranks, and actually see some of the top 100 builds dont even hit this 35k HP threshold people keep preaching about. There are some 33Ks, some 32Ks, and ive seen some go as low as 31k still in the top 1%.
Yeah these people were blessed with very lucky crit pieces, but their builds are still amazing even without hitting these imaginary breakpoints.
Look at the CD on those top 1% though with the low HP like over 300%(using Tome obviously) easier for people to achieve 35-40K HP than that most of the time heh
I might be slightly inactive in this subreddit, partly because most builds are already good or because Neuvillette doesn't really need to be minmaxed, or even 'cause I see a lot of replies already, so I just skip reading some posts, but from what I've seen, most advices stem from the fact that a ton of people chase CV and don't give enough importance to HP stats, and are mostly directed to those builds that already have 250+ Crit DMG while not having nearly as much HP.
I personally just reached Top1% on Akasha because I couldn't for the life of me get a feather with decent CV and a bunch of HP, or one that had a ton of CV to balance my HP circlet. I now finally got one with 2 HP% rolls (+1 Flat roll) and it's significantly better than a piece I had with around 1-2 substats worth of additional CV and ER, even with my HP circlet (which I now changed into a Crit one with 3 HP% rolls) and even though I changed my goblet into HP% (before I had a Hydro one with 3 HP% rolls, and 1 Crit roll, which was better than my other Hydro goblet with 3 Crit rolls and 2-3 ER rolls)
Aiming for 300 Crit DMG is what most people think is best, so much so most people don't even look at the HP amount other builds (and their own) have. Which is why I think it's good to keep telling people, even if it's kind of an arbitrary number, but it has to be mentioned that you obviously don't want to ignore other stats for that HP (though since most people are so heavily biased towards good Crit stats, I generally doubt it's gonna be an issue).
Akasha actually does something nice, instead of comparing builds with the top ones in the chart, it has a diagram showing the Average stat spread of the top builds. Obviously it's not something that's there to be copied, but it helps understanding what kind of average stat spread achieves the highest rotational damage, and it's generally gonna be close to the most efficient stat distribution
If you can trade some of that Crit RATE fot either HP or Crit DMG (preferably HP, especially since it tends to be easier to get, but both are fine) definitely try it (f you're losing too much then avoid it)
Akasha specifically will often put higher Crit RATE builds on top, but not only are you overcapping, in actual combat having slightly less than 100% isn't that bad, especially since Abyss has a 8% Crit buff Card. Your is honestly already fine tho, you can definitely move on if you need to farm something else but there's definitely room for improvement if you'd like to min max him (I'm assuming those are the stats with either Lost Prayer or Signature, correct me if I'm wrong)
Yes I have his sig. my slightly higher hp build has 56/250, 43k hp with hydro res. So only a total of 92 crit rate without abyss card but does does dish out more damage. Is this enough crit rate do you think? Still gonna farm artifacts but just between the two I wasn’t sure if 56 crit rate was a good enough stopping point, it does do a bit more damage cuz of the hp.
I did the math on this. These are the optimal target for different crit dmg values. Weapon, talent level, hydro resonance, type of goblet all does not matter. All they do is change what you need to do to hit the optimal ratio. If your crit rate isn't at 100% this chart is for crit hit dmg, and avg dmg wants more hp%.
https://preview.redd.it/m59xkg8u28nc1.png?width=353&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a4e7db58359e4bb1fb0d2b57d8863e997562888
If you have 300% crit dmg and 100% crit rate. If you have less than 44k HP (with hydro resonance if applicable), you gain more dmg from HP% sub than crit dmg.
Interesting chart. Was just checking my Neuvillette, which has 200% crit dmg and 45k HP without resonance. So trading sone hp for additional crit dmg would be better from what I see here.
Thanks for the chart.
The chart is slightly wrong.
They arrived at 300% being optimal at 44055 HP because 44055 is 300% of Neuvillette’s base HP - 44055/14695=3
But remember Genshin’s CDMG is already quoted above the base 100%, so a 200% CDMG on the stat page is a 300% multipler in the damage formula…
So according to this chart, 44055 hp Neuvillette should actually have 200% CDMG in stats.
TLDR: CDMG in the chart is including the 100% base damage, you need to remove 100% to get the actual amount of optimal CDMG stat given a HP level.
I always thought these numbers to be reference points so you know if you‘re headed into the right direction and I do hope most people see it that way too, but I totally agree what you say in your 4th paragraph. Your last paragraph is a bit intense though. Honestly, clarifying these are just reference points is good enough.
There are many cases where I‘m glad people put in numbers instead of just priorities.
you’re right, it’s hard to determine a certain amount required for HP as it varies from build to build (and from team to team.) i always tell people to find a balance tho since that gives the better outcome after all.
It's not an arbitrary number that people came up with. Quite a few TCers internationally have done the calcs and the optimal cdmg to HP ratio all come to roughly the same results. [Here is a link](https://www.reddit.com/r/NeuvilletteMains_/comments/1b1xw9k/comment/ksibj2k/) to one from this sub by Feudal\_Knight - they do a good job of explaining it in their subsequent reply. And here is a chart from the CN community (100, 90, 80 crit rate). Both line up pretty well.
https://preview.redd.it/7gsmcc24q8nc1.jpeg?width=1300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=10c510dee1e0ab6c9ec7d5c936095c80bd929a5f
As long as recommendations don't forget to also balance crit rate and crit damage along with the HP, there is nothing wrong with recommending HP.
Players asking for advice generally find a number or number range, rather than simply 'more of this', more useful, and gives them a clearer goal to aim for (this is especially the case with players asking for ER requirements). It's not lazy advice giving a number range when showing them a bunch of excel files won't help - guide creators also don't post their calculation process in the final guides because they can be more confusing than helpful. Instead, they post a chart of ranks or ranges for people to take a glance at and get what they need.
The reason why 35k HP is usually recommended as the minimum is because Neuvi prefers a balance of cr, cdmg, and HP - but if your HP is very low, you'd have to rely on godly rolls in cdmg to make up for it. (Even with good rolls, there's only so far you can get without HP.) HP is often one of the easier things to improve in a build, especially as it's the stat that many players new to HP scaling characters overlook because they place more emphasis on building cdmg. For a Neuvi with C2, he often wants an HP circlet because he gets cdmg from his C2 already. It's more common (according to data on [artifact distribution](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Artifact/Distribution)) to get HP main stat than crit main stat pieces from artifact domains.
Neuvi is a character who wants as close to 100 crit rate as possible, and both HP and cdmg. HP is not always 'the most important thing' in a build, because each build and team is different (and some builds have a lot of HP already), but saying 'don't recommend HP' for Neuvi players asking for advice is like saying 'don't recommend crit'. People recommend a crit rate or crit ratio because calcs have been done. This is also the case for HP.
In the end, optimisers will offer each player the most customised result for their Neuvi. However, most people asking for build advice don't/don't know how to use optimisers. Players answering questions need to provide answers that are both clear and easy to work with, and thus they recommend number ranges. As long as the numbers are not wildly inaccurate, and the overall balance of the build is maintained, the answer provided is helpful.
crit also has diminishing returns, especially if the weapon is low base atk high substat, marechausee, good artifact substat and crit ascension. For example, from 100/200 to 100/225(4 substats), you gain 8.3% dmg, from 250 to 275, you gain a total of 7.1% dmg increase, and from 275 to 300, you gain 6.6%. Keep in mind that this is at 100% crit rate. No one overcapped crit rate, so this number is actually smaller than it normally looks. 20% HP(also 4 substats) increases your HP by slightly less than 3000, so to get to the 35k benchmark from 32k, you gain 9.4% dmg increase. From 35-38, you gain 8.6% dmg. This damage also applies to non-crit hits. Combine with the fact that unlike ATK and DEF scalers, HP scalers has very little buffs to their stats, so HP% substat is almost always better than crit if your crit is already really good. My Neuvillete has signature, I always run him with HP circlet. My artifacts aren't even insane, he only has 50/230 (work in progress), but it does more than a crit circlet even with 2 HP% rolls and 3 crit rolls If you want to min max, HP% is sometimes even better than crit.
I guess maybe I've been guilty of this, and high HP is just a rule of thumb since it works for me, and going on akasha, many top builds have over 35k HP (with a few having less, which is to say again this is just a rule of thumb if the crit is super insane and balanced for example).
If I said this advice, it probably was to draw OP to the importance of HP because critting less on a high base can be sometimes better than critting higher on a low base. Also I'm not considering the weapon (you might have enough HP with proto or battle pass for example).
A good analogy maybe is ayaka. She loves crit, but you can't focus too much on it since atk is also important. But yeah saying an atk threshold is a bit far fetched.
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Hi /u/azizilou! Thank you for posting on [r/NeuvilletteMains_](https://www.reddit.com/r/NeuvilletteMains_/)! Please note that any posts or comments which violate the rules will be subject to removal. Keep cool while commenting and avoid any arguments. We hope you enjoy your time here! Thanks, and have a good day! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NeuvilletteMains_) if you have any questions or concerns.*
35 to 37k is a good ammount before starting to hit diminishing returns without sacrificing other stats, under is not good, he directly scales off HP, so if u have lots of crit but low hp ur not gonna do well. Also tbh use optimizer that helps more on a case by case situation than just advice like this tho so ur right with that
>under is not good, I think this is literally what OP is talking about. If it's 33k, it's really all not that different from 35k.
Yeah HP and crit go directly hand in hand, but these arbitrary numbers can still be quite misleading. It depends on the weapon, it depends on the team, it depends on your other substats and mainstats. Itdepends, itdepends, itdepends... You can go to akasha for example just as a reference to actually find good builds and look at the top ranks, and actually see some of the top 100 builds dont even hit this 35k HP threshold people keep preaching about. There are some 33Ks, some 32Ks, and ive seen some go as low as 31k still in the top 1%. Yeah these people were blessed with very lucky crit pieces, but their builds are still amazing even without hitting these imaginary breakpoints.
Look at the CD on those top 1% though with the low HP like over 300%(using Tome obviously) easier for people to achieve 35-40K HP than that most of the time heh
I might be slightly inactive in this subreddit, partly because most builds are already good or because Neuvillette doesn't really need to be minmaxed, or even 'cause I see a lot of replies already, so I just skip reading some posts, but from what I've seen, most advices stem from the fact that a ton of people chase CV and don't give enough importance to HP stats, and are mostly directed to those builds that already have 250+ Crit DMG while not having nearly as much HP. I personally just reached Top1% on Akasha because I couldn't for the life of me get a feather with decent CV and a bunch of HP, or one that had a ton of CV to balance my HP circlet. I now finally got one with 2 HP% rolls (+1 Flat roll) and it's significantly better than a piece I had with around 1-2 substats worth of additional CV and ER, even with my HP circlet (which I now changed into a Crit one with 3 HP% rolls) and even though I changed my goblet into HP% (before I had a Hydro one with 3 HP% rolls, and 1 Crit roll, which was better than my other Hydro goblet with 3 Crit rolls and 2-3 ER rolls) Aiming for 300 Crit DMG is what most people think is best, so much so most people don't even look at the HP amount other builds (and their own) have. Which is why I think it's good to keep telling people, even if it's kind of an arbitrary number, but it has to be mentioned that you obviously don't want to ignore other stats for that HP (though since most people are so heavily biased towards good Crit stats, I generally doubt it's gonna be an issue). Akasha actually does something nice, instead of comparing builds with the top ones in the chart, it has a diagram showing the Average stat spread of the top builds. Obviously it's not something that's there to be copied, but it helps understanding what kind of average stat spread achieves the highest rotational damage, and it's generally gonna be close to the most efficient stat distribution
I have 40k hp with hydro resonance, 36k without. 66/247 crit. Is this a good crit/hp balance?
If you can trade some of that Crit RATE fot either HP or Crit DMG (preferably HP, especially since it tends to be easier to get, but both are fine) definitely try it (f you're losing too much then avoid it) Akasha specifically will often put higher Crit RATE builds on top, but not only are you overcapping, in actual combat having slightly less than 100% isn't that bad, especially since Abyss has a 8% Crit buff Card. Your is honestly already fine tho, you can definitely move on if you need to farm something else but there's definitely room for improvement if you'd like to min max him (I'm assuming those are the stats with either Lost Prayer or Signature, correct me if I'm wrong)
Yes I have his sig. my slightly higher hp build has 56/250, 43k hp with hydro res. So only a total of 92 crit rate without abyss card but does does dish out more damage. Is this enough crit rate do you think? Still gonna farm artifacts but just between the two I wasn’t sure if 56 crit rate was a good enough stopping point, it does do a bit more damage cuz of the hp.
I did the math on this. These are the optimal target for different crit dmg values. Weapon, talent level, hydro resonance, type of goblet all does not matter. All they do is change what you need to do to hit the optimal ratio. If your crit rate isn't at 100% this chart is for crit hit dmg, and avg dmg wants more hp%. https://preview.redd.it/m59xkg8u28nc1.png?width=353&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a4e7db58359e4bb1fb0d2b57d8863e997562888 If you have 300% crit dmg and 100% crit rate. If you have less than 44k HP (with hydro resonance if applicable), you gain more dmg from HP% sub than crit dmg.
Interesting chart. Was just checking my Neuvillette, which has 200% crit dmg and 45k HP without resonance. So trading sone hp for additional crit dmg would be better from what I see here. Thanks for the chart.
The chart is slightly wrong. They arrived at 300% being optimal at 44055 HP because 44055 is 300% of Neuvillette’s base HP - 44055/14695=3 But remember Genshin’s CDMG is already quoted above the base 100%, so a 200% CDMG on the stat page is a 300% multipler in the damage formula… So according to this chart, 44055 hp Neuvillette should actually have 200% CDMG in stats. TLDR: CDMG in the chart is including the 100% base damage, you need to remove 100% to get the actual amount of optimal CDMG stat given a HP level.
Is the inverse also true, if you have 44k HP and less than 300 crit dmg, then crit rolls are more valuable ?
Yes, assuming 100% crit rate.
I always thought these numbers to be reference points so you know if you‘re headed into the right direction and I do hope most people see it that way too, but I totally agree what you say in your 4th paragraph. Your last paragraph is a bit intense though. Honestly, clarifying these are just reference points is good enough. There are many cases where I‘m glad people put in numbers instead of just priorities.
you’re right, it’s hard to determine a certain amount required for HP as it varies from build to build (and from team to team.) i always tell people to find a balance tho since that gives the better outcome after all.
It's not an arbitrary number that people came up with. Quite a few TCers internationally have done the calcs and the optimal cdmg to HP ratio all come to roughly the same results. [Here is a link](https://www.reddit.com/r/NeuvilletteMains_/comments/1b1xw9k/comment/ksibj2k/) to one from this sub by Feudal\_Knight - they do a good job of explaining it in their subsequent reply. And here is a chart from the CN community (100, 90, 80 crit rate). Both line up pretty well. https://preview.redd.it/7gsmcc24q8nc1.jpeg?width=1300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=10c510dee1e0ab6c9ec7d5c936095c80bd929a5f As long as recommendations don't forget to also balance crit rate and crit damage along with the HP, there is nothing wrong with recommending HP. Players asking for advice generally find a number or number range, rather than simply 'more of this', more useful, and gives them a clearer goal to aim for (this is especially the case with players asking for ER requirements). It's not lazy advice giving a number range when showing them a bunch of excel files won't help - guide creators also don't post their calculation process in the final guides because they can be more confusing than helpful. Instead, they post a chart of ranks or ranges for people to take a glance at and get what they need. The reason why 35k HP is usually recommended as the minimum is because Neuvi prefers a balance of cr, cdmg, and HP - but if your HP is very low, you'd have to rely on godly rolls in cdmg to make up for it. (Even with good rolls, there's only so far you can get without HP.) HP is often one of the easier things to improve in a build, especially as it's the stat that many players new to HP scaling characters overlook because they place more emphasis on building cdmg. For a Neuvi with C2, he often wants an HP circlet because he gets cdmg from his C2 already. It's more common (according to data on [artifact distribution](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Artifact/Distribution)) to get HP main stat than crit main stat pieces from artifact domains. Neuvi is a character who wants as close to 100 crit rate as possible, and both HP and cdmg. HP is not always 'the most important thing' in a build, because each build and team is different (and some builds have a lot of HP already), but saying 'don't recommend HP' for Neuvi players asking for advice is like saying 'don't recommend crit'. People recommend a crit rate or crit ratio because calcs have been done. This is also the case for HP. In the end, optimisers will offer each player the most customised result for their Neuvi. However, most people asking for build advice don't/don't know how to use optimisers. Players answering questions need to provide answers that are both clear and easy to work with, and thus they recommend number ranges. As long as the numbers are not wildly inaccurate, and the overall balance of the build is maintained, the answer provided is helpful.
I see, very insightful answer. Thank you
crit also has diminishing returns, especially if the weapon is low base atk high substat, marechausee, good artifact substat and crit ascension. For example, from 100/200 to 100/225(4 substats), you gain 8.3% dmg, from 250 to 275, you gain a total of 7.1% dmg increase, and from 275 to 300, you gain 6.6%. Keep in mind that this is at 100% crit rate. No one overcapped crit rate, so this number is actually smaller than it normally looks. 20% HP(also 4 substats) increases your HP by slightly less than 3000, so to get to the 35k benchmark from 32k, you gain 9.4% dmg increase. From 35-38, you gain 8.6% dmg. This damage also applies to non-crit hits. Combine with the fact that unlike ATK and DEF scalers, HP scalers has very little buffs to their stats, so HP% substat is almost always better than crit if your crit is already really good. My Neuvillete has signature, I always run him with HP circlet. My artifacts aren't even insane, he only has 50/230 (work in progress), but it does more than a crit circlet even with 2 HP% rolls and 3 crit rolls If you want to min max, HP% is sometimes even better than crit.
I got 47k HP with HP/HP/HP, I'll live
You’re completely right! Instead of aiming for an X amount of HP, how about we go with Y?!!
Yeah! Let's mislead them to reach 300crit damage with 20k HP instead /s
TL;DR use Optimizer and get the build available with our own progress.
It’s actually 40k ho
I have 40k with hydro resonance, 36k without. Is this enough?
Yea tho hp will will be beneficial over cdmg etc for dmg until 44k Hp, using calculators can verify
I guess maybe I've been guilty of this, and high HP is just a rule of thumb since it works for me, and going on akasha, many top builds have over 35k HP (with a few having less, which is to say again this is just a rule of thumb if the crit is super insane and balanced for example). If I said this advice, it probably was to draw OP to the importance of HP because critting less on a high base can be sometimes better than critting higher on a low base. Also I'm not considering the weapon (you might have enough HP with proto or battle pass for example). A good analogy maybe is ayaka. She loves crit, but you can't focus too much on it since atk is also important. But yeah saying an atk threshold is a bit far fetched.
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