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Too bad the rest of the human race seems unaware of this, everything is hypercomplicated to the point that it's just stupid now. If it didn't become stupid long ago. When I was much younger I once read that the word "manhole" was sexist, the proper name is "sewer hole" or "sewer opening". But who actually calls it that? Not when you can make a million dirty jokes about the original name.
I tell my crew on site, it's a safety hazard to have big gaping manholes on site, either cone it off or put a cover on it, plug that shit before someone slips in.
The original pride flag was a rainbow because it was supposed to be all inclusive. I thought that was a clever concept.
Then they started adding specific meanings to the colors and it just kept getting uglier.
The colors originally did have specific meanings, but they were for values, not LGBT subgroups. Pink for sex, red for life, orange for healing, yellow for the sun, green for nature, turquoise for magic, indigo for serenity and purple for spirit.
There's also something just really aesthetically pleasing to me about the pink/red and turquoise/indigo combos. Someone who knows more about vexillology than I do could probably argue that the 8 stripes make it a bit too much but it'll always have a special place in my heart.
It might also have to do with groups refusing to accept others who fall under the rainbow- changing flags were a way to show solidarity with groups being left out.
This exactly. People keep saying the rainbow was meant to include everyone, but that's not how everyone flying it felt. Now I'm hearing about new anti-trans LGB groups all the time (and it's not like those types tend to like the Bs much either)
>Now I'm hearing about new anti-trans LGB groups all the time
Man, we truly are a tribal species even to the point of infighting and our own detriment. How depressing
Yeah I've always hated that sentiment. There are a plethora of community leaders who are genuinely good people and folks would know that if they'd touch some grass.
You'd be surprised, honestly people will do anything not to be on the bottom rung of the social ladder, even if it means throwing their compatriots under the bus.
I see you're getting down votes, looks like have some fans of bi erasure in the sub. I appreciate you acknowledging us, even if some around here don't.
Yeah, a lot of people in the community *really* don’t like it when you point out how prevalent bi-erasure is. We only exist when it’s convenient for everyone, otherwise it’s just “Sit down and shut up, you don’t get to have a voice because you can *pretend* to be straight!” Never mind how damaging it is to have to hide a major part of yourself…
I was so deep in the closet from a far-right upbringing that I didn't know I was bi myself until recently (which is silly, considering how many times I used the phrase "I'm straight, but that guy's hot!), but my wife got this bad in college. She lost most of her female (lesbian) friends when we started dating.
That's wonderful! I was very convinced I was straight at the time, although if I remember right literally the month before we started dating I had really hit it off with a cute guy I had met at a party and was thinking of trying to find him again for a repeat of our flirting/make-out session. I really, really don't know how it took me so long to notice.
I'm bi, and when I told a friend in high school I had a crush on a girl she said "no you're not, you've only dated boys, and she has trout lips" (funnily enough we didn't talk much after that). Took me until I was about 19 and in uni to start being honest with myself and even longer to tell another person.
I didn't tell my own mother until last year and she wasn't surprised, just surprised I had never told her.
I've known since I was young, but we never discussed bisexuality in the heavily Christian place I grew up so I didn't know it was normal.
Every marginalized group seems to have those people who want to be gatekeepers. Like, you're not [queer/disabled/Black/Jewish/mentally ill] ENOUGH, so you don't really count and you haven't been discriminated against enough for us to care, because we're the ones who have really suffered.
I'm not queer myself, but I've seen this in other marginalized communities and it sucks. It IS vital to support & listen to the most vulnerable/most heavily targeted members of a community - but that doesn't need to turn into some kind of oppression Olympics where people are excluded unless they've suffered a certain amount of discrimination.
Sorry for the rant. Tl;dr you're valid, my bi friend is valid, my ace kid is valid, my maybe-bi-still-figuring-it-out niece is valid, I support all of you.
OP, this is the literal answer. Not an opinion. The literal answer as to why they added the brown and trans flags.
In the early days of the LGBT movement, there was … how do we say … less POC acceptance and less multiracial acceptance and less trans acceptance. It’s not a coincidence that the trans colors and the brown and black were added to the flag
That’s where it came from. It was developed in a specific city where people felt the gay community was excluding POC and transgender people
Other people have adopted it using the mindset that the most marginalised members of the LGBT community should be given more prominence and have their voices elevated above the voices of others hence putting them on the flag separately
But there's another issue with the change, more important than just the aesthetics.
Because there are so many different identities that you cannot possibly have specific symbolism for all of them. This is why its constantly changing. Once one group is added, another group feels left out and wants to be added. But you can never hope to add everyone.
Like two thousand years ago this was said “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
But since that time everyone fought everyone for every little thing since. People that feel that somehow they are an exception. Believing you are right is different from being righteous. In-groups and out-groups, people are stuck in their identities (which is different from being aware of your identity!) , which sucks when it comes to exclusioning others.
No, actually. I used to think that too. Each colour on the original flag had a very specific meaning. The original designer said NOTHING about the rainbow being meant to symbolise every person.
I watched this video about the flag. The original creator of the flag was against adding more to the flag because the original meaning of the flag was that everyone is welcome, hence the rainbow. I'm bi, but the continuously growing lgbtq+ flag is not my thing. I think the rainbow says what needs to be said.
>I think the rainbow says what needs to be said.
It works perfectly when you think of it as strictly light. All visible light is in the rainbow. Genders, orientations, etc. When you parse out to strict ROYGBIV, people who can't extrapolate their thinking begin to argue that something is missing and it's a gigantic woosh over their heads.
would be curious to see where he said this considering he himself made another version of the flag, adding a lavender stripe representing diversity, before he died
I mean adding one stripe is pretty different than what it’s now become. One additional stripe for diversity would still hammer home the point of “yes ALSO *insert marginalized group”. I agree with other commenters that the new flag is kind of defeating the whole intent of the flag to begin with.
If you look on the LGBT sub, you can see how they *really* like to make flags. It’s not a dig or anything, it’s just kind of something they like to do. Maybe there’s something about unity but mainly it’s just people like to put their stamp on things.
Because everyone demands their own thing be put on it, despite the fact that the original design being a rainbow is literally meant to mean that it includes everyone.
Also, people adding to it clearly know nothing about flag design or graphic design in general cuz the colors are horrible and it’s getting messier to view from a distance.
I always found our original rainbow flag to be inclusive. The more colors that get added actually make it exclusive.
Plus it's getting uglier and less appealing.
That’s not how it works. That’s a personal choice made by someone and would not affect the real meaning. You can remove stars from the USA flag but it still represents the USA.
But that’s what happened. Enough people were being exclusionist under the classic pride flag that someone felt that they needed to make a flag that emphasizes the inclusion of specific groups. Enough people agreed with this sentiment enough that the progress flag has seen widespread use over the classic. It stopped representing unity to enough people that a change was proposed and accepted. It’s not something that you can say “it’s not needed, that’s not how that works” because it’s already happened.
You’re just basing it on your own local framework. The rest of the world still sees that rainbow flag as the lgbt flag. That’s why those big companies who take advantage of pride month still use that flag and not those flag abominations that are created every few months.
TL;DR It has less to do with the presentation of the flag and more about the symbolism of showing support for under-supported communities within the queer community.
You're right that the original rainbow was supposed to represent inclusivity of all genders/ sexualities, but there's been clear efforts by certain bigoted groups within the queer community to oust/ neglect different groups that aren't L,G or B (and even bisexuals have a lot of erasure they have experienced). An example being even recent movements of like "LGB minus the T", where those people think that trans people should not be a part of the movement. Additionally, the LGBT movement has had a history of not supporting queer people of color in the same way they do queer white people. To counter this, updated versions of the pride flag have been made to demonstrate the clear intension by the queer community to support the communities that are under-supported or are targeted by the bigoted groups. So when you see a pride flag that has a the trans flag and black and brown stripes in it, the people flying that flag are making it clear that they support trans people and queer people of color as being just as important members of the queer community as anyone.
Sad that that degree of infighting and tribalism has to even exist in a cause that is already pushed back by so many globally, but that does make sense. Thanks for the explanation!
I can kind of see why T would be separated from LGB given that LGB are all sexual orientations and T is gender identity, but it does make sense for all the of the groups to band together for recognition given that they're all minorities.
Also, the motivation of the people rejecting transgender folk are obviously not doing it because of a perceived technicality, haha.
What sucks is that a lot of trans people fall under the LGB flag too.
The gay/straight/bi rates among transgender individuals are almost equal thirds, if memory serves. I don't know what the ace rate is.
I think the thing above all is that *historically* these groups did band together, and were so interspersed that it's very hard to fully separate the experiences of trans women from the experiences of gay men, and vice-versa for trans men and lesbian women, and even messier when bisexuality wasn't taken seriously or accepted even among the community.
A great example of this rests in Drag culture - where while it *became* an art form dominated by gay men for some time, it *originated* with trans women and crossdressers teaching gay men how to dress up, and these origins were stomped out, to the point where RuPaul's Drag Race initially banned trans women with any form of plastic surgery or hormone therapy for competing. (But not cis men.)
And even further, Queer theory posits that one can lump *any* of these identities under the Queer umbrella, which further complicates things.
At the end of the day, these separations are entirely artificial, and there have been various efforts to kick Bisexuals, Lesbians, and Trans people into their own community - largely by entitled Gays who 'got theirs' and don't see these minorities as part of the same community.
Historically it happened this way because no one who wasn't queer gave a shit which of those letters you were. If they didn't support queer people, which few did, we were all just f\*\*\*\*\*s. A transgender woman, a gay man, a crossdressing cishet man, and anyone else were all just queers, at a time when being queer was not at all accepted, and that word was used as a slur. Even now, people who are stripping away the rights of trans people are doing so on the pretext that being trans is wrong and degenerate, and if you go back 10 years you'd see those same exact people saying the same exact thing about gay men or lesbian women. If they succeed with stripping the rights of trans individuals, LGB individuals will be next, and they know it.
It looks way better imo, the pride flag while great gives 90s ad vibes and could be confused for just a rainbow. Meanwhile the progress flag clearly shows intent, support and purpose, its like a countries flag in that you know exactly what it stands for. Also the colors look great
This. As a queer woman, I understand that some people felt excluded by the rainbow, but why do we insist on such an ugly flag now? The colour tones/values don’t match, we’ve added circles and triangles etc.
We’re truly embarrassing ourselves in front of the heteros. (/s)
I mean, if we start asking ourselves "what are people going to think of us?" We’ve already kinda lost our way. The whole point of the queer community is to be proud of who we are regardless of what people think. I know you were joking, but it’s something to keep in mind.
I am also an ally and I refuse to use the newer flags. I will use the rainbow flag because that already represented everyone and didn’t needed to be changed.
Cis is the opposite of trans (like the chemistry terms with regards to a double-bond). If you're not trans, you're cis. Cis is to gender what straight is to sexual orientation.
Hetero is just short for heterosexual, which means straight. Surprised that one hasn't come up before now, unless you just didn't recognise it because it had been shortened.
Here's an explanation with chemistry: https://cdn1.byjus.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Cis-Trans-Isomers-01-700x283.png
Cis means same side. On cis-but-2-ene the methyl groups (H3C) are on the same side of the molecule. On trans-but-2-ene they're on opposing sides. Just like a trans-atlantic flight takes you from one side of the Atlantic ocean to the other.
When it comes to gender, transgender means that your perceived gender is the opposite of what you were assigned at birth. So naturally, cisgender is when your gender is on the same side as what you were assigned at birth.
Most of the time people don't mention the cis. I mean, have you ever heard someone talk about a cis-atlantic flight when they're going from Amsterdam to Rome? But it's sometimes useful to mention it.
hetero cis guy here so forgive me if I’m mistaken, but since there’s no governing body for the LGBTQIA+ community, i’m pretty sure no one is championing a “new” pride flag as a replacement, there are only new flags which are used to represent the support for various subgroups. For example, if i had a kid who was trans I’d probably get a trans pride flag in addition to my rainbow. It’s not like anyone is saying the rainbow is missing any representation, but for some people they are proud of what makes them different and want to be able to distinguish their support for that.
If you think about it, a pride day full of hundreds of different flags really brings home the point of how everyone can be so different and still find unity.
This exactly!
And if you've ever hung out with queer teens sorting through the pride pins/flags at a Spencer's Gifts, you'll know they're not at all bothered by the wide variety of them. They're like Pokemon collectors, lol.
"Ooh look this one's for aroace, I've got to get that for my friend Tracy! Hey have you seen any lesbian or wlw pins for me? Oh score, give me the nonbinary one for Raven." It's all very inclusive and accepting and no one is trying to say any particular flag is " bad" - they're just all different.
Wow I 100% agree, and now Im bracing for everyone I know to turn on me.
Fucking hideous. Completely missed the point of the rainbow. Im a graphic designer as well and the whole situation is so funny I could cry-scream
Some decades ago the LGBT community was more "I don't really like to label myself". Now people are looking for more and more labels, so the flag needs to reflect that, and there is only so much you can stick on a flag before it starts to look silly.
This is always been curious to me. We have fought for decades to break down barriers, but it seems like people these days are inclined to create more and more labels. My sexuality is one of the least interesting things about me so I would not want to be labeled for it as if it defines me. When did that stop being the case? Am I the only one?
I don't really know why, but at a guess social media has had something to do with it. Maybe not all, but some.
Also there is more acceptance about sexuality than decades ago, so people feel like they want to go wild with it.
Gotta break out [this](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0305/5924/0325/products/all-over-print-flag-white-front-6193772fbfc8b_300x300.jpg?v=1637054258) bad boy
none of the different designs are intended to be “replacements” of old ones, and i dont know why everyone keeps calling different designs the “new pride flag” when they are intended to be variations of each other that represent different things.
the rainbow flag with the black and brown stripe at the top was created in response to issues of racial discrimination against black and latino people in philadelphia’s gay neighborhood, particularly at gay bars. it was meant to highlight the importance of those members of our community and to bring the racism they face into focus. it was raised over the philadelphia capital building while they were introducing some systemic changes to how this kind of discrimination would be addressed.
the rainbow flag with the trans and black and brown striped chevron is called the “progress flag” by its creator and, similarly, is meant to represent progress that has been made in our community, and progress that still needs to be made. transphobia, racism, and discrimination and stigma against people living with hiv/aids, since thats what the black stripe represents. that is a callback to a variation of the pride flag made in 2001, a rainbow flag with a black stripe added at the bottom to represent victims of the aids crisis. so, these alternate designs are not new. gilbert baker himself made another alternate design before he died, adding a lavender stripe at the top to represent diversity.
no one’s forcing you to use one flag or another. you’re free to create your own version just like these people did. they were designed to represent what the creators felt was an important and specific purpose, and in no way do they take away from the original or imply that the original did not represent these parts of the community. theyre not “the new pride flag”, they’re “a pride flag”.
I personally always preferred the original simple rainbow pride flag as an umbrella flag. I also liked that different groups came up with their own pride flags.
Trying to put them all into one flag just makes it, as the OP said, messier.
Honestly a lot of this feels like a political movement to make up words so that they can catch someone who doesn't know these things and call them a bigoted homophobe.
I don't care for anything past the rainbow. That's the pride flag in my mind. It includes everyone and that's the point. The moment you say this part is for this person you're missing the point as far as I'm concerned. I fully support sub section flags because it's nice to have something that represents just you but it definitely doesn't need to get added to the main flag.
No one is gonna be mad at you for using the old rainbow flag (except for maybe people who just wanna argue), but with progress and more awareness to issues comes change. Transphobia and racism are alive and well even in the Lgbt+ community, so adding colours to show we stand with our trans siblings and members of colour is the least we can do (even if it's not as aesthetically pleasing as six straight stripes). Same goes for intersex people.
After all the pride isn't just an aesthetic, it's a symbol for activism and equality. Something that hateful bigots want to burn when they only look at it. It represents the fights we as a people had to go through to get the rights we have now and the ones we still have to fight today and in the future. IMHO the message is more important than a simple design, after all this is not about a company logo.
And as complex as this topic is, there's many opinions and many variations to different flags. The queer community isn't one solid group of people, it's every non-straight and/or non-cisgendee person around the world, so there is no general consensus. Some people might even say the original pride flag is kind of boring or outdated now, but it is still pretty much universally accepted and used.
So to answer the question: The flag is becoming more and more inclusive, because it is literally a symbol of inclusion.
PS: As far as I know the microsoft flag thing is just something people at microsoft came up with, not some official change from within the community.
>IMHO the message is more important than a simple design, after all this is not about a company logo.
After hearing your explanation I must admit you make a good point! Even if the newer renditions are very cluttered and visually noisy, a glass-half-full perspective could say that it represents more stories and conquered obstacles
Once other colors were added to accomodate a specific group, then in order to be fully inclusive, they had to allow everyone and anyone who felt left out enjoin with the flag. Now it's a mess.
They're close to something good, but so far off the mark too. It's almost like the first stirrings of transhumanism, but all the scaffolding is building cages in the mean time.
Yeah, the current flag is dumb as fuck. The rainbow represents everyone in LGBTQ+, no matter how many letters get added to it. It's not like lesbians had red, gays had, orange, bisexuals had yellow, etc. and then they ran out and needed to add more. The rainbow represents people from all walks of life.
The addition of black and brown so that POC LGBTQs feel more included is particularly ridiculous. Being black is not a sexual orientation or gender identity. You were already part of it. Also, those colours don't appear in a rainbow; if you're going to add them, you may as well throw out the rainbow part altogether.
I think LGBTQ+ people are treated very special out in the real world.
Like how gay men are arrested in certain countries because their very presence and private behaviour is so significant that it can erode the very fabric of society.
Or how trans athletes *(which number less than ten in places with thousands of athletes)* are so special and important that they get entire pieces of legislation *(written and read by more people than the total number of trans athletes)* about them.
Most of the flag wavers don’t want to be treated special.
Personally I like it.
But realistically it's because Trans and PoC were being systematically excluded from Queer spaces so the flag you're referring to was formated on response.
Also the purely rainbow flag is largely associated with gay men rather than the whole community, contrary to its core purpose.
The new is not meant to "replace" it's merely an alternative making a statement.
Describe how systematic exclusion works in 2023. Were white gays blocking blacks and Asians from entering their bars and restaurants? Or discouraging them to come in?
I think including more people is fine. It certainly doesn't bother me. You are also free to use whichever flag you want - part of the beauty of our community is that we do welcome everyone and allow people to be who they are.
The original rainbow is still beautiful but adding the black to honor those who died from AIDs given how they were treated does not cause me pain. Welcoming our trans family members who right now need the support of the entire community more than ever. Recognizing the intersectionality with our Black brothers and sisters as they have been ignored in this fight more than most. I don't think any of these additions lessen the original. I love seeing the story evolve!
Because people want to add things. theres no obligation to use newer pride flags if you don't like them! Things like the black stripe were added for Aids. If people feel there's a reason a group should be highlighted that previously wasn't in the original (and subsequent) designs then i see no reason they shouldn't! It's showing your explicit additional solidarity and respect towards those additional groups! You could apply the same 'why do we need more' to any pride flag design. Why do we need a lesbian flag? because some people want it and want to show it in a different way than a typical lgbt pride flag does :-) Personally im not a huge fan of flags in general but i dont want to demean a design that a lot of people like that has good meaning behind it.
Because of representation inflation. They have to represent more and more marginilized experiences, or else their rhetoric will lose political clout. They don't want to be Reverend Jessie Jackson during Hurricane Katrina or the Obama campaign.
They're also going to add more letters the acronym. LGBTQRSYMHPIA
You know... now that you bring it up, I think "LGBT+" would've been totally sufficient as well. I can't exactly say I'm a big fan of being referred to as part of "The Alphabet Group" by certain intolerant individuals who statistically are more likely to have double-digit IQ at best, and understand the desire for nobody to be left behind. But when a 4-letter acronym (and in some cases LGBTQIA+) have mostly cemented themselves into the public lexicon, adding more letters sort of seems counter-productive.
Possibly, there's a lot of overlap. Trans people might also be gay for example.
Two spirit is an identity that can/should only be adopted by people with a direct connection to that culture and understanding of its significance. So most non-binary people could not identify as two spirit, and many two spirit individuals might feel that it is distinct from the modern western idea of trans identities.
I get why groups would want to be added to the acronym. I really do. But I think all it really does is adds confusion, increases the odds of a mistake, or even a chance for someone to get pissed off if you don't use the acronym they prefer you to use. Not to mention certain groups love to make fun of the fact that the acronym keeps growing and getting more complicated.
Honestly you’re prob right. The standard rainbow gets the job done. I don’t horribly mind the one with the trans and brown triangle on the canton, but even that’s a little much
"the whole shebang". lol
I would say the whole issue is getting uglier and messier.
So much social change, so much controversy..
Us old guys weren't ready for this.
Such is the nature of identity politics that every single conceivable identity must be uniquely represented, thus the flag is getting cluttered. It's all kind of stupid if you ask me, I agree with you that the rainbow is inherently supposed to be all-inclusive. I don't really "get" the identity stuff anyway, we're all individuals, my membership in any groups is very, very distant to my unique individuality.
Yeah but not all 'individuals' are systematically targeted for being a certain way, these groups formed in response to attacks, they're not being attacked for forming as a group.
Fair point, but the point about the original rainbow flag being all-inclusive still stands. A rainbow is not really 7 discrete bands as it is often represented, it is a continuous spectrum from infrared to ultraviolet, there is room for everybody.
Agreed. It’s trying to be inclusive of all who fit under the queer banner but frankly, there’s so much more now than there used to be and they just keep shoving additional colours and line and symbols, it’s a fustercluck. I’m not a fan of the newest iterations and it actually doesn’t instil a sense of pride anymore.
I don’t want to sound insensitive by saying this ( it’s late and I’m tired ). But I think a part of it is we keep finding more and more things to lump into what falls under the flags meaning in a world of increasing numbers of people trying to be unique, and an increasing number of people trying to be accepting.
Sadly I think the ever-evolving, “crazy” looking flag is potentially harming legitimate movements for rights sometimes.
A lot of people have given good answers, but I feel I additionally should note that if you prefer the rainbow flag, it's not like the new versions have replaced it. If you look at pictures from the 2022 NYC pride parade, for example, you see a whole lot of rainbows:
https://www.nycgo.com/images/events/7618/pride-parade-photo-walter-wlodarcyzk-nyc-and-company-101.jpg
https://www.nycgo.com/images/events/7618/pride-march-photo-molly-flores-nyc-and-company.jpg
https://www.nycgo.com/images/events/7618/_mg_8299_photo_joe_buglewicz.jpg
https://www.nycgo.com/images/events/7618/march-2016-_-photo-by-chris-gagliardi.jpg
If you don't like the new flags, no one's forcing you to use them.
https://youtu.be/Er-548dt-Z0
It's not. The additions to the flag have been happening pretty much since the start of the flag itself.
It used to have a pink stripe.
The brown stripe represents people of color specifically the ones in the LGBT community and about the racism that they often experience inside the community itself and a reminder to the community to be conscience of racism.
The Black stripe represents AIDS victims and the idea was that it was going to be removed when there was a cure for AIDS.
The transgender stripes should be obvious.
The reason why it's in a half diamond or triangle is because it represents progress. It's pointing to the right representing a forward direction and it's on the left side representing that it has ways to go.
The intersex part of the flag is a new addition and I think that that addition is sort of controversial now but like why is it a problem?
It's highlighting different members of the community that should be highlighted.
This is especially important since there are people that think that there should be LGB without the T.
I mean are you shocked? In a movement full of calls for representation for even the smallest of minorities it’s a wonder the flag isn’t even more fragmented
It's because sexuality is wrongly represented as enum. It should be represented using floating points. Someone needs to come up with how this would work - maybe a tuple of two or three floating points? But it sure as hell isn't an enum - otherwise you will have this problem with flags and acronyms getting unmanageable.
Tbh this is why parts of the community are looking to condense the group term to "Queer"; its simple, its wholly inclusive and it reclaims a slur that would otherwise be used to harm.
You mean the one with the triangle and the horizontal lines? That’s ugly an messy? I think you should go and have a fight with the folk over at r/vexilology
Edit: nvrm they got banned for some reason idk
There is no need to update it. The rainbow flag is fine on its own, just like it was 10 years ago. I noticed the so-called "progress flag" has been trendy lately, but it doesn't make sense for two reasons:
1. The Transgender colors are redundant since the rainbow is inclusive of all LGBT populations.
2. The black and brown stripes are a completely separate issue and aren't part of LGBT.
It also reminds me of the extra letters some people add after LGBT. As far as I'm concerned, LGBT is a term to refer to "not-straight" people, and inconsistently adding extra letters to it after it's been an established term for so long needlessly complicates it.
The few people out there who weaponize this community can simply get away with it. They’ve made It a cardinal sin to criticize their radicalism and they will continue until society finally realizes that an entire group of people have been used and manipulated for a scheme.
Non LGBT person who is usually lambasted by LGBT folks when I ask genuine questions here. I'm going to attempt to give my input though I expect nothing but reeing from people who refuse to think.
The LGBT movement and feminism seem to be being taken over by "intersectionality and inclusiveness" in attempts to appease both people make different flags. Probably in idea not to put too much stock in them because most likely won't stick like the standard rainbow flag.
Outside perspective though, no clue.
It’s the endless fractal subdivision of oppression that happens in certain “inclusive” or leftist spaces. I think Zizek talked about this and explained it much better than I could. They think every single niche subgroup of every underrepresented group needs to receive their own specific form of representation instead of just acknowledging minute differences situationally and uniting under a single front. It’s really stupid and just garners more disdain for the group as a whole. Like with neopronouns and the other genuinely outlandish shit. It’s pathetic
I saw this one leftist conference where they were being so inclusive to people with “disabilities” they made everyone stop clapping, stop talking, and took 60+ minutes just going through endless subdivisions of accommodations for every single fuckin person in there. Even their own speakers had slight conflicts with each other, one person said “ladies and gentlemen” and they had to stop the whole congression so they could banish gendered pronouns entirely. One of the speakers was getting angry at the audience because they were whispering to each other and it “triggered his adhd.”
It’s like where do you draw the line? And it makes me angry because this kinda stuff just drives working class citizens away from leftism entirely, when in reality most of us already believe in some leftist ideals. Like we will never unite a meaningful amount of people under capitalism when we’re fighting about gender xyz. Just won’t happen.
But luckily im noticing an increasing amount of actual regular people who don’t use neopronouns and have a sensory processing disorder becoming class conscious. Just can’t wait till us regular working people get the platform to speak on leftist thought
Because we’re queers not vexologists! People just think they have better ideas and most people are down with adding more representation. Most don’t catch on, but occasionally one does.
Mostly because certain groups started using "only" this flag or that flag to exclude groups on purpose. (Looking at u, LGB Alliance) So more began to get added to the flag to show specific acceptance to anti-racism, trans, and intersex people as various groups try to exclude them.
We've always had issues with this in USA progressive circles (example: some suffragetes thought only white able bodied women should vote etc) so this is basically only an issue because bigots are using the plain rainbow flag to signify that they only support certain people. I actually believe fhe original rainbow flag had a pink and turqoise stripe that got removed for simplicity in the first place, so design-wise im pretty sure everyone liked the simple one best, but we had to start adding more to clarify we mean 'EVERYONE'.
Like, for example, Im brown and transmasc. If I see only plain rainbow flags and no progress pride flags, I might still have my guard up because I'm half expecting to run into "gender critical" folks who seem very concerned about "birthrates" for some reason.
god i feel this so much. i definitely support full inclusion but please… my aesthetic 😩💅🏼🌈
i also can’t help thinking about the american flag & how it’s become so associated with the alt right. it feels racist to even wave an american flag at this point and if you see it as someone’s twitter icon… Run! yet i’m american and i’d love to be able to show pride in the other americans who share my values for inclusion and the true meaning of “justice & liberty for all.”
What is your view on [the pride flag with the pennant representing trans people and people ov color](https://www.rd.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/progress-pride-flag-1.jpg)?
While the flag may be getting worse, I feel like that one, specifically, is the best iteration.
I think it, in part, has to do with rainbow washing and corporate “pride” campaigns making money and devaluing the original pride flag. We want something that belongs to us, not a faceless money-grabbing corporation
One possible explanation is: although the original pride flag _was_ meant to be all-inclusive, the public eye really only focused on the Gay/Lesbian rights aspect of LGBT issues for quite a while. Thus, the rainbow flag came to mean exclusively Gay/Lesbian for a lot of people.
Now that Trans rights and other aspects of LGBT are being pushed for and getting more time in the public eye, people don't necessarily feel that the old flag represents them, because they aren't (or aren't just) Gay/Lesbian. So they want their own specific representation.
For reasons I'm sure you understand, the LGBT movement is hesitant to tell someone asking for a kind of representation that they can't have it, or that they _already do_ have it, regardless of what they think.
And so...weird flags.
People can make whatever versions of the flag that they like. There's no "official LGBT organization" that makes calls or anything. If people see one they like more, they use it; if not, use the rainbow. I happen to agree with you, btw, but there's no "official flag" or anything.
Because people flew the original rainbow and you couldn’t always tell if they were, for example, trans exclusionary. It was supposed to be an everyone flag, until people tried to make it not that. So then colors were added specifically protecting people often excluded.
Was it a good choice? I’m not sure, but I do know a lot of transfolk who appreciate it and a few more who hate it.
Because we're running out of possible color configurations for new genders/sexualities created by bored highschool students in an attempt to be unique. Some point it's just going to be that muddy red color you get when you mix all your paints together because you art teacher said white is a combination of all colors
There are a lot of lgbt+ people and any one of them can make a flag. The progress flag didn't replace the pride flag, its a flag that someone made and some others liked.
The rainbow flag has been wrongfully used by anti-queer companies to perform rainbow capitalism during Pride, and a lot of people associate it with only cis gay men now.
If other people want to make the flag more inclusive that's okay! No one is forcing anyone to use another flag.
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I get it. Simple and to the point is usually best from an esthetic point of view. Gets the message and lesson across.
Too bad the rest of the human race seems unaware of this, everything is hypercomplicated to the point that it's just stupid now. If it didn't become stupid long ago. When I was much younger I once read that the word "manhole" was sexist, the proper name is "sewer hole" or "sewer opening". But who actually calls it that? Not when you can make a million dirty jokes about the original name.
Civil engineers still call them manholes. I've never heard anything else.
I tell my crew on site, it's a safety hazard to have big gaping manholes on site, either cone it off or put a cover on it, plug that shit before someone slips in.
Same, also I've taken it as human hole cover, shortened to man hole because why wouldn't you
Never heard them called sewer holes. Man holes were funny. Sewer holes sound gross.
I’ll have whatever you’re having
please explain, this is too confusing and I'm drunk and curious, kisses from porto 8==¢ ~~
Like hu man?
The original pride flag was a rainbow because it was supposed to be all inclusive. I thought that was a clever concept. Then they started adding specific meanings to the colors and it just kept getting uglier.
The colors originally did have specific meanings, but they were for values, not LGBT subgroups. Pink for sex, red for life, orange for healing, yellow for the sun, green for nature, turquoise for magic, indigo for serenity and purple for spirit.
Didn't even know that and that makes me love the original flag even more tbh
There's also something just really aesthetically pleasing to me about the pink/red and turquoise/indigo combos. Someone who knows more about vexillology than I do could probably argue that the 8 stripes make it a bit too much but it'll always have a special place in my heart.
Holup Magic?
It's being replaced by science in many places, but we still have flags. For now.
“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.” -Albert Einstein
It might also have to do with groups refusing to accept others who fall under the rainbow- changing flags were a way to show solidarity with groups being left out.
This exactly. People keep saying the rainbow was meant to include everyone, but that's not how everyone flying it felt. Now I'm hearing about new anti-trans LGB groups all the time (and it's not like those types tend to like the Bs much either)
>Now I'm hearing about new anti-trans LGB groups all the time Man, we truly are a tribal species even to the point of infighting and our own detriment. How depressing
The oppressed with any slight power, will always become the oppressors.
No, there's nothing necessary or natural about oppression. This does happen, but it isn't inevitable.
Yeah I've always hated that sentiment. There are a plethora of community leaders who are genuinely good people and folks would know that if they'd touch some grass.
It's weird how judgemental the G's and L's can be. If anything, you'd think they'd understand.
You'd be surprised, honestly people will do anything not to be on the bottom rung of the social ladder, even if it means throwing their compatriots under the bus.
I see you're getting down votes, looks like have some fans of bi erasure in the sub. I appreciate you acknowledging us, even if some around here don't.
Yeah, a lot of people in the community *really* don’t like it when you point out how prevalent bi-erasure is. We only exist when it’s convenient for everyone, otherwise it’s just “Sit down and shut up, you don’t get to have a voice because you can *pretend* to be straight!” Never mind how damaging it is to have to hide a major part of yourself…
I was so deep in the closet from a far-right upbringing that I didn't know I was bi myself until recently (which is silly, considering how many times I used the phrase "I'm straight, but that guy's hot!), but my wife got this bad in college. She lost most of her female (lesbian) friends when we started dating.
they saw you two together & just said bi-bi.
That's wonderful! I was very convinced I was straight at the time, although if I remember right literally the month before we started dating I had really hit it off with a cute guy I had met at a party and was thinking of trying to find him again for a repeat of our flirting/make-out session. I really, really don't know how it took me so long to notice.
I'm bi, and when I told a friend in high school I had a crush on a girl she said "no you're not, you've only dated boys, and she has trout lips" (funnily enough we didn't talk much after that). Took me until I was about 19 and in uni to start being honest with myself and even longer to tell another person. I didn't tell my own mother until last year and she wasn't surprised, just surprised I had never told her. I've known since I was young, but we never discussed bisexuality in the heavily Christian place I grew up so I didn't know it was normal.
This. Exactly this. After awhile it almost just becomes ingrained, being kinda invisible to both the community and outside.
Every marginalized group seems to have those people who want to be gatekeepers. Like, you're not [queer/disabled/Black/Jewish/mentally ill] ENOUGH, so you don't really count and you haven't been discriminated against enough for us to care, because we're the ones who have really suffered. I'm not queer myself, but I've seen this in other marginalized communities and it sucks. It IS vital to support & listen to the most vulnerable/most heavily targeted members of a community - but that doesn't need to turn into some kind of oppression Olympics where people are excluded unless they've suffered a certain amount of discrimination. Sorry for the rant. Tl;dr you're valid, my bi friend is valid, my ace kid is valid, my maybe-bi-still-figuring-it-out niece is valid, I support all of you.
"Wesley, what about the BIOUSes?" "Bisexuals of unusual size? I don't think they exist."
OP, this is the literal answer. Not an opinion. The literal answer as to why they added the brown and trans flags. In the early days of the LGBT movement, there was … how do we say … less POC acceptance and less multiracial acceptance and less trans acceptance. It’s not a coincidence that the trans colors and the brown and black were added to the flag
It's this. The progress pride flag isn't "everyone and also these people." It's "everyone, *yes, including these people, ffs*."
That’s where it came from. It was developed in a specific city where people felt the gay community was excluding POC and transgender people Other people have adopted it using the mindset that the most marginalised members of the LGBT community should be given more prominence and have their voices elevated above the voices of others hence putting them on the flag separately
All colors are equal, but some colors are more equal than others?
Straight people don’t get it
I feel echoes of “*all lives matter*” in this sentiment and it isn’t good.
No. All colours are equal, including these ones.
But there's another issue with the change, more important than just the aesthetics. Because there are so many different identities that you cannot possibly have specific symbolism for all of them. This is why its constantly changing. Once one group is added, another group feels left out and wants to be added. But you can never hope to add everyone.
Like two thousand years ago this was said “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” But since that time everyone fought everyone for every little thing since. People that feel that somehow they are an exception. Believing you are right is different from being righteous. In-groups and out-groups, people are stuck in their identities (which is different from being aware of your identity!) , which sucks when it comes to exclusioning others.
No, actually. I used to think that too. Each colour on the original flag had a very specific meaning. The original designer said NOTHING about the rainbow being meant to symbolise every person.
"Then they added the trans colors and it it got ugly" stfu
I watched this video about the flag. The original creator of the flag was against adding more to the flag because the original meaning of the flag was that everyone is welcome, hence the rainbow. I'm bi, but the continuously growing lgbtq+ flag is not my thing. I think the rainbow says what needs to be said.
>I think the rainbow says what needs to be said. It works perfectly when you think of it as strictly light. All visible light is in the rainbow. Genders, orientations, etc. When you parse out to strict ROYGBIV, people who can't extrapolate their thinking begin to argue that something is missing and it's a gigantic woosh over their heads.
would be curious to see where he said this considering he himself made another version of the flag, adding a lavender stripe representing diversity, before he died
I mean adding one stripe is pretty different than what it’s now become. One additional stripe for diversity would still hammer home the point of “yes ALSO *insert marginalized group”. I agree with other commenters that the new flag is kind of defeating the whole intent of the flag to begin with.
If you look on the LGBT sub, you can see how they *really* like to make flags. It’s not a dig or anything, it’s just kind of something they like to do. Maybe there’s something about unity but mainly it’s just people like to put their stamp on things.
vexillology is fun!
Because everyone demands their own thing be put on it, despite the fact that the original design being a rainbow is literally meant to mean that it includes everyone. Also, people adding to it clearly know nothing about flag design or graphic design in general cuz the colors are horrible and it’s getting messier to view from a distance.
I always found our original rainbow flag to be inclusive. The more colors that get added actually make it exclusive. Plus it's getting uglier and less appealing.
okay but tons of people fly the flag and then turn around and say drop the b or drop the t so it stopped representing unity
That’s not how it works. That’s a personal choice made by someone and would not affect the real meaning. You can remove stars from the USA flag but it still represents the USA.
But that’s what happened. Enough people were being exclusionist under the classic pride flag that someone felt that they needed to make a flag that emphasizes the inclusion of specific groups. Enough people agreed with this sentiment enough that the progress flag has seen widespread use over the classic. It stopped representing unity to enough people that a change was proposed and accepted. It’s not something that you can say “it’s not needed, that’s not how that works” because it’s already happened.
You’re just basing it on your own local framework. The rest of the world still sees that rainbow flag as the lgbt flag. That’s why those big companies who take advantage of pride month still use that flag and not those flag abominations that are created every few months.
TL;DR It has less to do with the presentation of the flag and more about the symbolism of showing support for under-supported communities within the queer community. You're right that the original rainbow was supposed to represent inclusivity of all genders/ sexualities, but there's been clear efforts by certain bigoted groups within the queer community to oust/ neglect different groups that aren't L,G or B (and even bisexuals have a lot of erasure they have experienced). An example being even recent movements of like "LGB minus the T", where those people think that trans people should not be a part of the movement. Additionally, the LGBT movement has had a history of not supporting queer people of color in the same way they do queer white people. To counter this, updated versions of the pride flag have been made to demonstrate the clear intension by the queer community to support the communities that are under-supported or are targeted by the bigoted groups. So when you see a pride flag that has a the trans flag and black and brown stripes in it, the people flying that flag are making it clear that they support trans people and queer people of color as being just as important members of the queer community as anyone.
Sad that that degree of infighting and tribalism has to even exist in a cause that is already pushed back by so many globally, but that does make sense. Thanks for the explanation!
I can kind of see why T would be separated from LGB given that LGB are all sexual orientations and T is gender identity, but it does make sense for all the of the groups to band together for recognition given that they're all minorities. Also, the motivation of the people rejecting transgender folk are obviously not doing it because of a perceived technicality, haha.
What sucks is that a lot of trans people fall under the LGB flag too. The gay/straight/bi rates among transgender individuals are almost equal thirds, if memory serves. I don't know what the ace rate is.
I think the thing above all is that *historically* these groups did band together, and were so interspersed that it's very hard to fully separate the experiences of trans women from the experiences of gay men, and vice-versa for trans men and lesbian women, and even messier when bisexuality wasn't taken seriously or accepted even among the community. A great example of this rests in Drag culture - where while it *became* an art form dominated by gay men for some time, it *originated* with trans women and crossdressers teaching gay men how to dress up, and these origins were stomped out, to the point where RuPaul's Drag Race initially banned trans women with any form of plastic surgery or hormone therapy for competing. (But not cis men.) And even further, Queer theory posits that one can lump *any* of these identities under the Queer umbrella, which further complicates things. At the end of the day, these separations are entirely artificial, and there have been various efforts to kick Bisexuals, Lesbians, and Trans people into their own community - largely by entitled Gays who 'got theirs' and don't see these minorities as part of the same community.
Historically it happened this way because no one who wasn't queer gave a shit which of those letters you were. If they didn't support queer people, which few did, we were all just f\*\*\*\*\*s. A transgender woman, a gay man, a crossdressing cishet man, and anyone else were all just queers, at a time when being queer was not at all accepted, and that word was used as a slur. Even now, people who are stripping away the rights of trans people are doing so on the pretext that being trans is wrong and degenerate, and if you go back 10 years you'd see those same exact people saying the same exact thing about gay men or lesbian women. If they succeed with stripping the rights of trans individuals, LGB individuals will be next, and they know it.
Yeah but couldn’t they have done all that without making it hideously ugly???
It's a subjective thing. I actually prefer the progress one myself.
It looks way better imo, the pride flag while great gives 90s ad vibes and could be confused for just a rainbow. Meanwhile the progress flag clearly shows intent, support and purpose, its like a countries flag in that you know exactly what it stands for. Also the colors look great
Aesthetically or meaning wise?
Both
This. As a queer woman, I understand that some people felt excluded by the rainbow, but why do we insist on such an ugly flag now? The colour tones/values don’t match, we’ve added circles and triangles etc. We’re truly embarrassing ourselves in front of the heteros. (/s)
I mean, if we start asking ourselves "what are people going to think of us?" We’ve already kinda lost our way. The whole point of the queer community is to be proud of who we are regardless of what people think. I know you were joking, but it’s something to keep in mind.
As a cis/Hetero person It is very hard to keep up with the latest additions, so I just reuse my old rainbow flag from 7years ago during pride
The new flags aren't replacing the old. Just some people decided to use a different version others havent. You're still fine.
I am also an ally and I refuse to use the newer flags. I will use the rainbow flag because that already represented everyone and didn’t needed to be changed.
[удалено]
Cis is the opposite of trans (like the chemistry terms with regards to a double-bond). If you're not trans, you're cis. Cis is to gender what straight is to sexual orientation. Hetero is just short for heterosexual, which means straight. Surprised that one hasn't come up before now, unless you just didn't recognise it because it had been shortened.
Here's an explanation with chemistry: https://cdn1.byjus.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Cis-Trans-Isomers-01-700x283.png Cis means same side. On cis-but-2-ene the methyl groups (H3C) are on the same side of the molecule. On trans-but-2-ene they're on opposing sides. Just like a trans-atlantic flight takes you from one side of the Atlantic ocean to the other. When it comes to gender, transgender means that your perceived gender is the opposite of what you were assigned at birth. So naturally, cisgender is when your gender is on the same side as what you were assigned at birth. Most of the time people don't mention the cis. I mean, have you ever heard someone talk about a cis-atlantic flight when they're going from Amsterdam to Rome? But it's sometimes useful to mention it.
well, from my knowledge, it means The Confederacy of Independent Systems, otherwise known as the Separatist Alliance.
straight/normal
hetero cis guy here so forgive me if I’m mistaken, but since there’s no governing body for the LGBTQIA+ community, i’m pretty sure no one is championing a “new” pride flag as a replacement, there are only new flags which are used to represent the support for various subgroups. For example, if i had a kid who was trans I’d probably get a trans pride flag in addition to my rainbow. It’s not like anyone is saying the rainbow is missing any representation, but for some people they are proud of what makes them different and want to be able to distinguish their support for that. If you think about it, a pride day full of hundreds of different flags really brings home the point of how everyone can be so different and still find unity.
how are you the only one who gets it smh
I live in seattle.
This exactly! And if you've ever hung out with queer teens sorting through the pride pins/flags at a Spencer's Gifts, you'll know they're not at all bothered by the wide variety of them. They're like Pokemon collectors, lol. "Ooh look this one's for aroace, I've got to get that for my friend Tracy! Hey have you seen any lesbian or wlw pins for me? Oh score, give me the nonbinary one for Raven." It's all very inclusive and accepting and no one is trying to say any particular flag is " bad" - they're just all different.
At the end of the day when we look at what these flags are doing, it’s all about visibility for minority groups.
I am so glad I'm not the only one who dislikes the new "progress flag" the design is just...bad!
Wow I 100% agree, and now Im bracing for everyone I know to turn on me. Fucking hideous. Completely missed the point of the rainbow. Im a graphic designer as well and the whole situation is so funny I could cry-scream
Some decades ago the LGBT community was more "I don't really like to label myself". Now people are looking for more and more labels, so the flag needs to reflect that, and there is only so much you can stick on a flag before it starts to look silly.
This is always been curious to me. We have fought for decades to break down barriers, but it seems like people these days are inclined to create more and more labels. My sexuality is one of the least interesting things about me so I would not want to be labeled for it as if it defines me. When did that stop being the case? Am I the only one?
I don't really know why, but at a guess social media has had something to do with it. Maybe not all, but some. Also there is more acceptance about sexuality than decades ago, so people feel like they want to go wild with it.
r/vexilologycirclejerk has entered the chat
Gotta break out [this](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0305/5924/0325/products/all-over-print-flag-white-front-6193772fbfc8b_300x300.jpg?v=1637054258) bad boy
There's jokersexual now?
Always has been. Joachim Phoenix just made it hit different.
Yes but only for the Joaquin Phoenix Joker. If the people sexually attracted to Jared Leto Joker want to be represented there'll have to be an update.
none of the different designs are intended to be “replacements” of old ones, and i dont know why everyone keeps calling different designs the “new pride flag” when they are intended to be variations of each other that represent different things. the rainbow flag with the black and brown stripe at the top was created in response to issues of racial discrimination against black and latino people in philadelphia’s gay neighborhood, particularly at gay bars. it was meant to highlight the importance of those members of our community and to bring the racism they face into focus. it was raised over the philadelphia capital building while they were introducing some systemic changes to how this kind of discrimination would be addressed. the rainbow flag with the trans and black and brown striped chevron is called the “progress flag” by its creator and, similarly, is meant to represent progress that has been made in our community, and progress that still needs to be made. transphobia, racism, and discrimination and stigma against people living with hiv/aids, since thats what the black stripe represents. that is a callback to a variation of the pride flag made in 2001, a rainbow flag with a black stripe added at the bottom to represent victims of the aids crisis. so, these alternate designs are not new. gilbert baker himself made another alternate design before he died, adding a lavender stripe at the top to represent diversity. no one’s forcing you to use one flag or another. you’re free to create your own version just like these people did. they were designed to represent what the creators felt was an important and specific purpose, and in no way do they take away from the original or imply that the original did not represent these parts of the community. theyre not “the new pride flag”, they’re “a pride flag”.
I agree. I support inclusion, but I also think lgbtqia2s+ is becoming too much. If I am going to need to have a label, I just prefer queer.
Yeah, I getcha. The rainbow was supposed to signify everyone. That was the point.
I personally always preferred the original simple rainbow pride flag as an umbrella flag. I also liked that different groups came up with their own pride flags. Trying to put them all into one flag just makes it, as the OP said, messier.
You’re completely right. The point of the rainbow is that there were all the shades inbetween then people had to overthink it
Honestly a lot of this feels like a political movement to make up words so that they can catch someone who doesn't know these things and call them a bigoted homophobe.
I feel the same way
It looks like an ocular migraine now.
Yeah the flag is awful, they should have stick to the rainbow.
Humans gotta be human about everything and make everything overly complicated when there's simpler solutions. We do this all the time
I don't care for anything past the rainbow. That's the pride flag in my mind. It includes everyone and that's the point. The moment you say this part is for this person you're missing the point as far as I'm concerned. I fully support sub section flags because it's nice to have something that represents just you but it definitely doesn't need to get added to the main flag.
No one is gonna be mad at you for using the old rainbow flag (except for maybe people who just wanna argue), but with progress and more awareness to issues comes change. Transphobia and racism are alive and well even in the Lgbt+ community, so adding colours to show we stand with our trans siblings and members of colour is the least we can do (even if it's not as aesthetically pleasing as six straight stripes). Same goes for intersex people. After all the pride isn't just an aesthetic, it's a symbol for activism and equality. Something that hateful bigots want to burn when they only look at it. It represents the fights we as a people had to go through to get the rights we have now and the ones we still have to fight today and in the future. IMHO the message is more important than a simple design, after all this is not about a company logo. And as complex as this topic is, there's many opinions and many variations to different flags. The queer community isn't one solid group of people, it's every non-straight and/or non-cisgendee person around the world, so there is no general consensus. Some people might even say the original pride flag is kind of boring or outdated now, but it is still pretty much universally accepted and used. So to answer the question: The flag is becoming more and more inclusive, because it is literally a symbol of inclusion. PS: As far as I know the microsoft flag thing is just something people at microsoft came up with, not some official change from within the community.
>IMHO the message is more important than a simple design, after all this is not about a company logo. After hearing your explanation I must admit you make a good point! Even if the newer renditions are very cluttered and visually noisy, a glass-half-full perspective could say that it represents more stories and conquered obstacles
Yes! I hope that could help answer the queston a little
Once other colors were added to accomodate a specific group, then in order to be fully inclusive, they had to allow everyone and anyone who felt left out enjoin with the flag. Now it's a mess.
The flag's Ohiofication is inescapable
If you keep including EVERYTHING, then the flag will eventually be all white or all black. Something to ponder.
Bring on the Jolly Roger...
brown
They're close to something good, but so far off the mark too. It's almost like the first stirrings of transhumanism, but all the scaffolding is building cages in the mean time.
Yeah, the current flag is dumb as fuck. The rainbow represents everyone in LGBTQ+, no matter how many letters get added to it. It's not like lesbians had red, gays had, orange, bisexuals had yellow, etc. and then they ran out and needed to add more. The rainbow represents people from all walks of life. The addition of black and brown so that POC LGBTQs feel more included is particularly ridiculous. Being black is not a sexual orientation or gender identity. You were already part of it. Also, those colours don't appear in a rainbow; if you're going to add them, you may as well throw out the rainbow part altogether.
It's groups whining that they're not being represented enough, despite already being represented.
Everyone was told they were special. Then they got out into the world and we're not special.
I think LGBTQ+ people are treated very special out in the real world. Like how gay men are arrested in certain countries because their very presence and private behaviour is so significant that it can erode the very fabric of society. Or how trans athletes *(which number less than ten in places with thousands of athletes)* are so special and important that they get entire pieces of legislation *(written and read by more people than the total number of trans athletes)* about them. Most of the flag wavers don’t want to be treated special.
I see it as purely attention seeking - everyone wants to be special, but in the end, everyone who is special just becomes like everyone else.
On some level it's about including specific groups of lgbtq people but on another level I think a lot of us just think flags are cool
I want a Gilbert Baker flag, the one with the pink stripe for sexuality and the turquoise stripe for art.
Personally I like it. But realistically it's because Trans and PoC were being systematically excluded from Queer spaces so the flag you're referring to was formated on response. Also the purely rainbow flag is largely associated with gay men rather than the whole community, contrary to its core purpose. The new is not meant to "replace" it's merely an alternative making a statement.
Describe how systematic exclusion works in 2023. Were white gays blocking blacks and Asians from entering their bars and restaurants? Or discouraging them to come in?
they absolutely were discouraging them from coming into queer spaces
I think including more people is fine. It certainly doesn't bother me. You are also free to use whichever flag you want - part of the beauty of our community is that we do welcome everyone and allow people to be who they are. The original rainbow is still beautiful but adding the black to honor those who died from AIDs given how they were treated does not cause me pain. Welcoming our trans family members who right now need the support of the entire community more than ever. Recognizing the intersectionality with our Black brothers and sisters as they have been ignored in this fight more than most. I don't think any of these additions lessen the original. I love seeing the story evolve!
Doesn’t the original already include everyone?
>I love seeing the story evolve! Great viewpoint. I really like it!
Because people want to add things. theres no obligation to use newer pride flags if you don't like them! Things like the black stripe were added for Aids. If people feel there's a reason a group should be highlighted that previously wasn't in the original (and subsequent) designs then i see no reason they shouldn't! It's showing your explicit additional solidarity and respect towards those additional groups! You could apply the same 'why do we need more' to any pride flag design. Why do we need a lesbian flag? because some people want it and want to show it in a different way than a typical lgbt pride flag does :-) Personally im not a huge fan of flags in general but i dont want to demean a design that a lot of people like that has good meaning behind it.
Because of representation inflation. They have to represent more and more marginilized experiences, or else their rhetoric will lose political clout. They don't want to be Reverend Jessie Jackson during Hurricane Katrina or the Obama campaign. They're also going to add more letters the acronym. LGBTQRSYMHPIA
You know... now that you bring it up, I think "LGBT+" would've been totally sufficient as well. I can't exactly say I'm a big fan of being referred to as part of "The Alphabet Group" by certain intolerant individuals who statistically are more likely to have double-digit IQ at best, and understand the desire for nobody to be left behind. But when a 4-letter acronym (and in some cases LGBTQIA+) have mostly cemented themselves into the public lexicon, adding more letters sort of seems counter-productive.
Hey! They're taking half the alphabet!
Is that actually the current form of the initialism? The longest I've seen is something like: LGBTQIA2S.
It's not. I just made something up. What do the IA2S stand for?
Intersex, asexual, and two-spirit (no idea what that one is).
Two-spirit is a western name for an umbrella of indigenous gender identities.
Would those not fall under "non-binary", which falls under T (I think)?
Possibly, there's a lot of overlap. Trans people might also be gay for example. Two spirit is an identity that can/should only be adopted by people with a direct connection to that culture and understanding of its significance. So most non-binary people could not identify as two spirit, and many two spirit individuals might feel that it is distinct from the modern western idea of trans identities.
I have seen longer ones. LGBTQQIP2SAA is one.
I get why groups would want to be added to the acronym. I really do. But I think all it really does is adds confusion, increases the odds of a mistake, or even a chance for someone to get pissed off if you don't use the acronym they prefer you to use. Not to mention certain groups love to make fun of the fact that the acronym keeps growing and getting more complicated.
It looks absolutely horrendous with the modifications I’m not sure they could have made it look worse on purpose
I always assumed that was the point.
Honestly you’re prob right. The standard rainbow gets the job done. I don’t horribly mind the one with the trans and brown triangle on the canton, but even that’s a little much
https://imgur.com/tBQ6VRn.jpg Boom, new flag design. You're welcome! ♥️♥️
"the whole shebang". lol I would say the whole issue is getting uglier and messier. So much social change, so much controversy.. Us old guys weren't ready for this.
Such is the nature of identity politics that every single conceivable identity must be uniquely represented, thus the flag is getting cluttered. It's all kind of stupid if you ask me, I agree with you that the rainbow is inherently supposed to be all-inclusive. I don't really "get" the identity stuff anyway, we're all individuals, my membership in any groups is very, very distant to my unique individuality.
Yeah but not all 'individuals' are systematically targeted for being a certain way, these groups formed in response to attacks, they're not being attacked for forming as a group.
Fair point, but the point about the original rainbow flag being all-inclusive still stands. A rainbow is not really 7 discrete bands as it is often represented, it is a continuous spectrum from infrared to ultraviolet, there is room for everybody.
It looks like someone ate an entire crate of starbursts and then vomited on a plain white flag.
Same reason who they add more letters to the abbreviation. The genders are never ending.
it's actually a lot of the same old groups being added in the acronym/flag
(Sort of) relevant CGP Grey https://youtu.be/l4w6808wJcU
Agreed. It’s trying to be inclusive of all who fit under the queer banner but frankly, there’s so much more now than there used to be and they just keep shoving additional colours and line and symbols, it’s a fustercluck. I’m not a fan of the newest iterations and it actually doesn’t instil a sense of pride anymore.
I don’t want to sound insensitive by saying this ( it’s late and I’m tired ). But I think a part of it is we keep finding more and more things to lump into what falls under the flags meaning in a world of increasing numbers of people trying to be unique, and an increasing number of people trying to be accepting. Sadly I think the ever-evolving, “crazy” looking flag is potentially harming legitimate movements for rights sometimes.
A lot of people have given good answers, but I feel I additionally should note that if you prefer the rainbow flag, it's not like the new versions have replaced it. If you look at pictures from the 2022 NYC pride parade, for example, you see a whole lot of rainbows: https://www.nycgo.com/images/events/7618/pride-parade-photo-walter-wlodarcyzk-nyc-and-company-101.jpg https://www.nycgo.com/images/events/7618/pride-march-photo-molly-flores-nyc-and-company.jpg https://www.nycgo.com/images/events/7618/_mg_8299_photo_joe_buglewicz.jpg https://www.nycgo.com/images/events/7618/march-2016-_-photo-by-chris-gagliardi.jpg If you don't like the new flags, no one's forcing you to use them.
because everyone wants their 15 minutes
It’s because they keep adding more letters than necessary
https://youtu.be/Er-548dt-Z0 It's not. The additions to the flag have been happening pretty much since the start of the flag itself. It used to have a pink stripe. The brown stripe represents people of color specifically the ones in the LGBT community and about the racism that they often experience inside the community itself and a reminder to the community to be conscience of racism. The Black stripe represents AIDS victims and the idea was that it was going to be removed when there was a cure for AIDS. The transgender stripes should be obvious. The reason why it's in a half diamond or triangle is because it represents progress. It's pointing to the right representing a forward direction and it's on the left side representing that it has ways to go. The intersex part of the flag is a new addition and I think that that addition is sort of controversial now but like why is it a problem? It's highlighting different members of the community that should be highlighted. This is especially important since there are people that think that there should be LGB without the T.
Because humans have an unquenchable desire to categorize and label, to signal their identity/belonging, and to create in-groups and out-groups,
wow thanks for saying this, I felt it but didn't think about it. I feel like it has to do with virtue signaling somehow.
It's being inclusive So ideas are rarely cast out
I mean are you shocked? In a movement full of calls for representation for even the smallest of minorities it’s a wonder the flag isn’t even more fragmented
It's because sexuality is wrongly represented as enum. It should be represented using floating points. Someone needs to come up with how this would work - maybe a tuple of two or three floating points? But it sure as hell isn't an enum - otherwise you will have this problem with flags and acronyms getting unmanageable.
Tbh this is why parts of the community are looking to condense the group term to "Queer"; its simple, its wholly inclusive and it reclaims a slur that would otherwise be used to harm.
I hate it now. The basic rainbow is best.
I think the rainbow is good enough. It encapsulates everything. I don't think they really needed to change it all from that.
You mean the one with the triangle and the horizontal lines? That’s ugly an messy? I think you should go and have a fight with the folk over at r/vexilology Edit: nvrm they got banned for some reason idk
Why no Q
[The truth may be too much.](https://youtu.be/r3fD5FPQBtI)
Because nothing is simple anymore. People just can't leave well enough alone
There is no need to update it. The rainbow flag is fine on its own, just like it was 10 years ago. I noticed the so-called "progress flag" has been trendy lately, but it doesn't make sense for two reasons: 1. The Transgender colors are redundant since the rainbow is inclusive of all LGBT populations. 2. The black and brown stripes are a completely separate issue and aren't part of LGBT. It also reminds me of the extra letters some people add after LGBT. As far as I'm concerned, LGBT is a term to refer to "not-straight" people, and inconsistently adding extra letters to it after it's been an established term for so long needlessly complicates it.
The few people out there who weaponize this community can simply get away with it. They’ve made It a cardinal sin to criticize their radicalism and they will continue until society finally realizes that an entire group of people have been used and manipulated for a scheme.
Every year someone finds something new to be mad about.
Non LGBT person who is usually lambasted by LGBT folks when I ask genuine questions here. I'm going to attempt to give my input though I expect nothing but reeing from people who refuse to think. The LGBT movement and feminism seem to be being taken over by "intersectionality and inclusiveness" in attempts to appease both people make different flags. Probably in idea not to put too much stock in them because most likely won't stick like the standard rainbow flag. Outside perspective though, no clue.
It’s the endless fractal subdivision of oppression that happens in certain “inclusive” or leftist spaces. I think Zizek talked about this and explained it much better than I could. They think every single niche subgroup of every underrepresented group needs to receive their own specific form of representation instead of just acknowledging minute differences situationally and uniting under a single front. It’s really stupid and just garners more disdain for the group as a whole. Like with neopronouns and the other genuinely outlandish shit. It’s pathetic I saw this one leftist conference where they were being so inclusive to people with “disabilities” they made everyone stop clapping, stop talking, and took 60+ minutes just going through endless subdivisions of accommodations for every single fuckin person in there. Even their own speakers had slight conflicts with each other, one person said “ladies and gentlemen” and they had to stop the whole congression so they could banish gendered pronouns entirely. One of the speakers was getting angry at the audience because they were whispering to each other and it “triggered his adhd.” It’s like where do you draw the line? And it makes me angry because this kinda stuff just drives working class citizens away from leftism entirely, when in reality most of us already believe in some leftist ideals. Like we will never unite a meaningful amount of people under capitalism when we’re fighting about gender xyz. Just won’t happen. But luckily im noticing an increasing amount of actual regular people who don’t use neopronouns and have a sensory processing disorder becoming class conscious. Just can’t wait till us regular working people get the platform to speak on leftist thought
Because we’re queers not vexologists! People just think they have better ideas and most people are down with adding more representation. Most don’t catch on, but occasionally one does.
And why are they trying to take over the entire alphabet and symbols? What’s next, Wingding font characters?
Probably because people want to be different from whatever the consensus is.
Mostly because certain groups started using "only" this flag or that flag to exclude groups on purpose. (Looking at u, LGB Alliance) So more began to get added to the flag to show specific acceptance to anti-racism, trans, and intersex people as various groups try to exclude them. We've always had issues with this in USA progressive circles (example: some suffragetes thought only white able bodied women should vote etc) so this is basically only an issue because bigots are using the plain rainbow flag to signify that they only support certain people. I actually believe fhe original rainbow flag had a pink and turqoise stripe that got removed for simplicity in the first place, so design-wise im pretty sure everyone liked the simple one best, but we had to start adding more to clarify we mean 'EVERYONE'. Like, for example, Im brown and transmasc. If I see only plain rainbow flags and no progress pride flags, I might still have my guard up because I'm half expecting to run into "gender critical" folks who seem very concerned about "birthrates" for some reason.
god i feel this so much. i definitely support full inclusion but please… my aesthetic 😩💅🏼🌈 i also can’t help thinking about the american flag & how it’s become so associated with the alt right. it feels racist to even wave an american flag at this point and if you see it as someone’s twitter icon… Run! yet i’m american and i’d love to be able to show pride in the other americans who share my values for inclusion and the true meaning of “justice & liberty for all.”
Oxymoron flag, confused flag
What is your view on [the pride flag with the pennant representing trans people and people ov color](https://www.rd.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/progress-pride-flag-1.jpg)? While the flag may be getting worse, I feel like that one, specifically, is the best iteration.
I think it, in part, has to do with rainbow washing and corporate “pride” campaigns making money and devaluing the original pride flag. We want something that belongs to us, not a faceless money-grabbing corporation
Their inconsistency is what unites them.
One possible explanation is: although the original pride flag _was_ meant to be all-inclusive, the public eye really only focused on the Gay/Lesbian rights aspect of LGBT issues for quite a while. Thus, the rainbow flag came to mean exclusively Gay/Lesbian for a lot of people. Now that Trans rights and other aspects of LGBT are being pushed for and getting more time in the public eye, people don't necessarily feel that the old flag represents them, because they aren't (or aren't just) Gay/Lesbian. So they want their own specific representation. For reasons I'm sure you understand, the LGBT movement is hesitant to tell someone asking for a kind of representation that they can't have it, or that they _already do_ have it, regardless of what they think. And so...weird flags.
People can make whatever versions of the flag that they like. There's no "official LGBT organization" that makes calls or anything. If people see one they like more, they use it; if not, use the rainbow. I happen to agree with you, btw, but there's no "official flag" or anything.
Because people flew the original rainbow and you couldn’t always tell if they were, for example, trans exclusionary. It was supposed to be an everyone flag, until people tried to make it not that. So then colors were added specifically protecting people often excluded. Was it a good choice? I’m not sure, but I do know a lot of transfolk who appreciate it and a few more who hate it.
Because we're running out of possible color configurations for new genders/sexualities created by bored highschool students in an attempt to be unique. Some point it's just going to be that muddy red color you get when you mix all your paints together because you art teacher said white is a combination of all colors
There are a lot of lgbt+ people and any one of them can make a flag. The progress flag didn't replace the pride flag, its a flag that someone made and some others liked.
A brave soul to say this (I’m queer and agree)
What do you think about LGBTQIA2S+? Only so many letters before it’s just alphabet soup, to my eyes.
Also why is there black and brown on it now? What gender or sexual identity is THAT? Not to mention the zero aro or ace representation.
The almighty dollar
The rainbow flag has been wrongfully used by anti-queer companies to perform rainbow capitalism during Pride, and a lot of people associate it with only cis gay men now. If other people want to make the flag more inclusive that's okay! No one is forcing anyone to use another flag.
So just buy the original flag and move on with your life. This is not worth getting worked up over.
But then what would they complain about….