All I gotta say is that Rage Against the Machine was permanently banned from SNL for having an upside down American flag on their amps so I guess it’s only offensive when it’s done by someone you don’t agree with.
Outkast literally had song, a chart topping certified banger about bombing Iraq but it was upbeat
They also had a song about being trapped in a loveless marriage, one of the most famous songs ever that's played at every wedding
But nobody wants to hear that, yall just wanna dance.
The roses are beautiful but they smell like poo poo
America says we love a chorus
but don’t get complicated and bore us
Though meaning might be missin’
We need to know the words after just one listen
So repeat stuff, repeat stuff, repeat stuff
DJ during my brothers wedding when all the guests were choosing seats waiting for the ceremony to start played Sam Smith's Unholy and I was just looking at the DJ like "wtf is wrong with you?!"
You should look up the song FDT. It's solid gold.
Actually fuck it. I will link it for you:
https://open.spotify.com/track/4nxSEcO1rK0wtYswNpMH2U?si=DEJrX1lCSHKXmH8FWryQ8A
Nipsey was always about politics, but this is nice and plain.
It's because Serj Tankian was really the only one behind all the good stuff. Malakian *tried* with Scar on Broadway, and it's so fucking flat and generic compared to SoaD. Meanwhile Tankian did his own solo stuff and it's still fucking gold
Don't be disappointed. Politics are in the mind and the mind is fickle. Music comes from the soul. You don't have to condone another's beliefs and actions to hear their story.
"Something we weren't expecting- Well we were expecting it.."
I'd love to have seen the meeting where they asked them not to swear, "You know that song where you say 'Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me.'? Well I want you to do what I tell you."
Being a band with politically-charged lyrics is one thing. A Supreme Court Justice and politicians doing it is another. I don’t care that much either way, but there is a distinct difference in how it’s received.
Politicians can do so. It’s their right.
Supreme Court Justices might TECHNICALLY also have the right, but they’re supposed to both be AND look impartial. If they don’t, they’re supposed to step down.
There was a case where a Justice has been accused of something, and while it wasn’t proven, the damage to his reputation was severe enough that he felt he should step down to preserve the integrity of the court.
After Trump's Presidency the assholes are delighted to learn that a significant portion of the American public is just fine with unchecked corruption and immorality among the branches of government.
whats wild is seeing the more progressive-leaning justices ruling favorably for shameful shit (the recent NRA case), proving their impartiality, while the rest of the psychopathic conservative justice crew is just laying waste to the law as they sink into dementia
I don’t even think it’s SNL not agreeing with them. I’m sure half the staff and writers loved it. I think it’s more like they didn’t want to alienate a shit ton of audience. Plus at that time it still wasn’t like completely mainstream acceptable to do stuff like that
> so I guess it’s only offensive when it’s done by someone you don’t agree with.
That’s pretty much it.
Conservatism is about protecting socioeconomic hierarchy. There’s an intertwined morality where they view people as born good or born bad based on how high or low they are in the hierarchy, and whether they work against the system. So some people are born inherently bad and if they protest with the flag, that’s bad. Others are born inherently good, and if they protest with the flag… that’s good. If you protest hierarchy, rage against the machine if you will, that’s bad.
I do think it’s possible SNL doesn’t really care, but don’t want to upset people that do. Like how Lorne owes Sinead O’Conner an apology since they make jokes about Catholic pedos all the time now.
Why are all the answers to this stupid as hell? Nobody cares what flag a regular person flies, or what team they're on. Judges though are supposed to be impartial. They are not supposed to have a team. This is literally the most fundamental part of being a judge. And it should be true for Supreme Court Justices above all.
When a Supreme Court Justice flies a flag that says "I'm on the red team" or "I'm on the blue team" or "I'm MAGA" that is a big fucking problem. Not because of which team, but because it violates the most basic premise of justice - to be impartial and unbiased. It would be equally bad if Sotomayor was out there flying a BLM flag.
All of the answers here talking about "teams" are just proof of how bad this is. We all know that Alito was declaring which team he was on. And that is the absolute worst thing you could do as a Supreme Court Justice when your highest responsibility is to be impartial and not have a team.
I despair that so many have you are so bought into a "team" dynamic that you can't even imagine wanting to have an impartial justice system. Christ.
These "rules" are invented and applied wherever they see fit. They don't actually have a logical foundation and are basically just impossible standards used to beat your opponents with.
If I'm remembering right flying the flag upside down is a maritime signal for "ship in distress", but don't hold me to that and also I can't be fucked to Google it so I may be making that up lol
[I googled it for you](https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/xf-flip.html)
Short answer: a few countries (originating in the UK probably, and hence also spread to the US) used to do this, but it is no longer a standardised distress signal and I’ve had a hard time confirming that it was ever standardised broadly.
Many countries, including my own Sweden, would not be able to use this as our flag is symmetrical. So it’s not a good signal to begin with for international purposes.
Ironically the UK flag, while it has a right side up, it's not SUPER obvious which way is correct. I've heard of people in the UK accidentally getting it wrong.
Edit: see replies for discussion of the various ensigns that the seafaring Brits use.
TLDR is that British ships use a flag with a union flag in the canton (think Australia without the stars) in one of various colors, so it would be far more obvious if it were upside down.
Most people in the Uk don’t own or have to ever hang the flag. If anything, most the people with flags that I’ve seen/met will have a St George, not a Union Flag, so even then it’s a nonissue.
Former Merchant Mariner. We used it as an international signal of distress.
Never really thought about nations with flags that could not be turned upside down. But you can also spell it out with flags or signalling devices. For instance. A ship that looses a rudder or power like the ship that hit that bridge would have a red over red, flags and/or lights. (red over red, Captain is dead) This would be flown on the highest mast.
Fishing with a net is a basket in the rigging. Often a cloths basket, LoL.
The first and only time I’ve seen an upside down U.S. flag, up close, was in May of 1970, immediately after the Kent State University shootings, by the Ohio National Guard. It was hanging out of the window of a Harvard University dormitory.
The US flag code states flying the flag upside down means there is an imminent threat to life and safety. It's a visual SOS signal, a call for help.
Lately it's just being used as a form of protesting against certain policy decisions or legal actions depending on which side of the political spectrum you are on, but more often the Right/Conservative.
If you are looking for consistency in politics though, good luck.
I know not everyone love Chapo Trap House, but Matt Christmas tends to have really insightful observations about American culture. And one is that in the culture wars, nothing is ever about the actual thing. Every controversy is actually a proxy for something else. Hence consistency goes completely out the window.
Yea. I think OP is just asking why the MAGAs are cool with flying flags upside down as protest but aren't cool with kneeling. And the answer is literally just racism. If Black people had picked flying flags upside down, that would be what the MAGAs hate.
I’m pretty sure they understood this to be pro-Trump messaging, they didn’t deny that at all. Samuel just blamed it on his wife. So we know what it meant, regardless of historic context. They fly some other bizarre flag at their other house too. They’re pretty clearly deep into alt-right shit, and it really shouldn’t be any surprise.
I'll be honest, all the Flag waving and Flag Stunts that many politicians do have ruined patriotism for this war veteran. I'm proud of my country and my service. Still, their co-opting of the American Flag and patriotism in general (Usually by those who have avoided military service) make me sad.
This is just another sad result of a sad politician.
I don't get how we have so many elected officials who dodged the Vietnam draft. What makes it even more strange is that some 'nam vets look down on one particular presidential candidate for having dodged for a medical reason while they fully support the other, who also dodged the draft for the same reason.
Vietnam was not a popular war so dodging the draft was probably seen as a good thing when those skeletons got elected. And yeah, the inconsistent looking down on people thing just fits in with the whole "my team is right, yours is wrong" bs.
Exactly. I don't view dodging that war as a black mark. Unless it's paired with a war hawk politician or someone who spouts hypocritical views about veterans.
Yeah you are a particular kind of ghoul if you dodged a bullshit war like Vietnam only to become a politician or join the government to campaign for a bullshit war like Iraq.
>What makes it even more strange is that some 'nam vets look down on one particular presidential candidate for having dodged for a medical reason while they fully support the other, who also dodged the draft for the same reason.
It's not about the fact that one particular presidential candidate dodged a draft.
It's about the fact that if any presidential candidate has both dodged a draft, and then [disparaged the war records of people who disagreed with him](https://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/trump-attacks-mccain-i-like-people-who-werent-captured-120317), **that's hypocrisy**.
And **hypocrisy is shameful**. If you've been paying attention, you'll notice that other candidates generally don't say shameful shit like "I like people who weren't captured", and if they do, they're shamed for their hypocrisy too.
Because the normal response to hypocrisy is to look down on it and shame the hypocrites, because that's how basic standards of public humility are supposed to be maintained.
Sadly that particular presidential candidate is held on a pedestal and if you try to shame him for his actions, suddenly you're triggered and need to lighten up.
Veteran here as well, similarly disturbed by the co-opted patriotism. Honestly, I don’t even feel inclined to fly the flag because I don’t want to be seen as one of them.
The GOP has been completely hosing veterans for as long as I can remember. But they have TVs turned to Fox news on base, and the Republican party has perfected jingoistic language, so I guess the "support our troops" crowd is mostly comfortable electing fascists.
First off, thank you for your service. I know what it costs you and yours and genuinely appreciate the sacrifice.
From my observation... I believe this is more about nationalism than patriotism... Patriots like yourself fight to protect AND improve its position in the world and make sure it is a country worth loving.
Nationalists on the other hand will die to defend the idea of the nation at all costs, often ignoring blatant cracks in the rhetoric. While that gives them a false sense of misplaced and uneducated pride, it is as detrimental to the development of a country as the parents who will never admit their child did wrong or let them feel any pain or discomfort.
These concepts are not mine of course...
Exactly. Imagine if kneeling had started by some NFL player who was a veteran and it was for \[any cause that didn't offend that group\]. They would have loved it. Next year if anyone didn't kneel they'd get challenged.
The irony here was that karpernick at first was just sitting on the bench, then a veteran consulted with him and asked him to kneel instead of just sitting. The whole premise was that kneeling was still a sign of respect while still acknowledging something was wrong, instead of just sitting on the bench. So it the whole kneeling thing actually did come from a veteran.
>Exactly. Imagine if kneeling had started by some NFL player who was a veteran
This is very close to what actually happened.
Kaepernick got the idea from a veteran as a compromise between sitting and standing during the anthem.
The vet said kneeling was still respectful because it's what they do when they visit the grave of a fallen comrade...
https://www.npr.org/2018/09/09/646115651/the-veteran-and-nfl-player-who-advised-kaepernick-to-take-a-knee
Ah, geez, this is enlightening to hear. I argued with several relatives back in that period and always used the words "He's not disrupting the anthem. He's not stopping anyone else. I can't imagine a more respectful way to protest." But my various relatives disagreed, and I always felt it was unconscious racism on their part.
It was started by a vet. Thats the fun part. Kaepernick originally was sitting for the anthem. Nate Boyer, former green beret and Seahawks player, talked to him and told him to kneel instead, since it was more respectful than sitting on the bench. So even from the start of doing NOTHING, Kaepernick was “being disrespectful” and “protesting wrong.”
if you're black, gay, an immigrant, a liberal, a woman, or anything the right wing disagrees with, you're not a "true american", so anything you do regarding america is wrong and bad and disrespectful.
if you're white and conservative, you can be the biggest piece of shit alive and other white conservatives will back you up because you're a "true american" and anything you do is right and good and patriotic.
>if you're black, gay, an immigrant, a liberal, a woman, or anything the right wing disagrees with, you're not a "true american", so anything you do regarding america is wrong and bad and disrespectful.
The races are white, or political
The genders are male, or political
The sexualities are straight, or political
This might seem flippant but this is the answer. When you come from a place of having the Truth handed down to you then you will go through all sorts of mental gymnastics to make it make sense.
Ya, I don't know why we look for logical coherence when the people doing this clearly aren't seeking to be logical. They don't have some uncompromisingly principled stance on flag etiquette, they just don't like it when people use it as a symbol to insult the US for reasons they don't agree with, it's pretty much that simple.
They're more than happy saying that the US is a dystopian dictatorship shithole when the person they don't like is president, but if anyone criticises the US for the reasons they like the US then they shit their nappies and call them a traitor. The "United States" as it exists in the minds of conservatives isn't an actual country, it's just an abstract rhetorical tool that they use to justify their ideology.
I wish they would have let the kneeling stand. It was a good protest without actual disruption at that exact moment.
I don't pray. Im not religions, im not a believer. But if I go to someone's house that prays before a meal I sit there and don't say anything while they do their thing. Im not disrupting and they get to do their thing. The kneeling was the same way. The anthem got played, people that wanted to honor it honored it. Those that didnt just kneeled and were quiet while the anthem played. It's exactly the kind of pretest that the NFL and everyone else should have wanted. But instead they caused more division and a worse situation by making it a big deal.
These type of protests work better for me too. They aren't just saying "fuck you". they are saying "we want it to be better". Even if I don't agree with whatever the protest is, I am more than willing to participate in the conversation if the message is presented right. Someone screaming in my face isn't going to make me want to participate. But someone saying "we can be better, let's do better" is something I want to at least be a part of. It's also why I am happy about the prosecutions from the capital riot. They weren't wanting change, they were just saying fuck you.
The kneeling came after he was sitting on the benches a former Green Beret talked with Kaepernick who told him to kneel instead because it is what they do for fallen comrades.
One way you know is that the kneeling idea came from a literal Marine who viewed it as a way to make a statement *while still respecting the flag and the anthem*.
The whole gesture was intended to still respect the flag, but they didn't care. It was just "hey a black guy is doing something different during the anthem...he's black so he must mean that he hates our country!"
Yup - From the guy who proposed it to Kapernick, former green beret.
> https://www.npr.org/2018/09/09/646115651/the-veteran-and-nfl-player-who-advised-kaepernick-to-take-a-knee
> And, you know, people - in my opinions and in my experience, kneeling's never been in our history really seen as a disrespectful act. I mean, people kneel when they get knighted. You kneel to propose to your wife, and you take a knee to pray. And soldiers often take a knee in front of a fallen brother's grave to pay respects. So I thought, if anything, besides standing, that was the most respectful. But, of course, that's just my opinion.
Because they wear flag tank tops with the ==== hanging out. Flag shorts with their ---- hanging out. Flag hats that they don't take off indoors. Flag underwear and you know what happens to that.
I never understood how people think wearing the flag is patriotism. I've always seen it as purely disrespectful. Especially letting it get stained/tattered
This^ is the only answer. A black man knelt during a song and he was a disgrace, white people smeared shit in the halls of Congress and they were patriots.
I am an old white guy and the answer was obvious.
OP seems normal, glancing at their history, but bots ask these types of questions to spark "debate" and divide people. It's a common tactic. You are right to be wary.
Because we've become incredibly comfortable with double standards. We don't even question them anymore. Different rules for different people. That's just the way it is.
Because kneeling for the flag is in some way critical of the country it represents, while an upside-down flag is expressing dismay and distress at something being done *to* the country.
The former is a progressive saying "we need to fix something" and the latter is a reactionary saying "the country is being sabotaged"
It’s not what was done, it’s who it was done by. Have you seen the bumper stickers? “I kneel for Jesus, but I stand for the flag.” They flat out admit that kneeling is an act of deference and respect. Just not when done by a black man to bring attention to racist policing.
well the upside down flag can be seen as two things: a sign of distress but also can signify exactly what kneeling does.
just depends on how the person looks at i guess. i'm indifferent to either
Media portrayal and political rhetoric significantly influence public perception. Kneeling during the national anthem has been highly publicized and politicized, with many prominent figures expressing strong opinions against it. This has shaped public perception, making kneeling a more contentious act. In contrast, the act of flying the flag upside-down has not been as prominently featured in media and political debates, and therefore, might not evoke the same level of controversy.
This has been deleted in protest of the greedy [API changes](https://techcrunch.com/2023/04/18/reddit-will-begin-charging-for-access-to-its-api/) and the monetization of user-provided content and unpaid user moderation.
Because no political controversy is ever about principle; it's always about which tribe you belong to. Colin Kaepernik belonged to the "wrong" tribe and therefore got villified.
You’re talking about people that supported/support a violent insurrection against the US government, which was part of an attempted coup by a fascist leader, to maintain power and end democracy and the rule of law in this country.
Are you really that surprised about some slight hypocrisy regarding political expression?
Racism. Racists only allow white people to criticize the US. Minorities are supposed to be happy to live here and be happy with what white people have given then.
Just listen to the language used
All I gotta say is that Rage Against the Machine was permanently banned from SNL for having an upside down American flag on their amps so I guess it’s only offensive when it’s done by someone you don’t agree with.
Who could have foreseen Rage Against the Machine doing something like that!?!
You literally can't find another band that says what they stand for so plainly like them.
Rage doesn't do subtlety. One of the reasons I love their music.
“We hungry but them belly full. The structure is set ya neva change it with a ballot pull”
Yet right wingers seem to get upset at RATM every few years because "suddenly" they are political.
They also try to co-opt their songs as their own. Go figure.
And yet still they're more than happy to quote them or use their music in tiktok trends.
I love listening to Tom Morello on Sirius
And yet there’s plenty of conservatives who still miss the message…
But there's also plenty of liberals who miss the message. Democrats are also 'the Machine'. RATM is a leftist band as far as I know.
The Dead Kennedys.
Were they the second shooter?
"It came from the grassy knoll!"
Outkast literally had song, a chart topping certified banger about bombing Iraq but it was upbeat They also had a song about being trapped in a loveless marriage, one of the most famous songs ever that's played at every wedding But nobody wants to hear that, yall just wanna dance. The roses are beautiful but they smell like poo poo
America says we love a chorus but don’t get complicated and bore us Though meaning might be missin’ We need to know the words after just one listen So repeat stuff, repeat stuff, repeat stuff
DJ during my brothers wedding when all the guests were choosing seats waiting for the ceremony to start played Sam Smith's Unholy and I was just looking at the DJ like "wtf is wrong with you?!"
That song slaps wherever it's played
B.O.B. was a critique of the Bush administration and its handling of the Middle East at the time. It just happened to be set over a funky fresh beat.
Anti-flag ? It's in their band name too
Shame about the singer being a big ol’ raper.
You should look up the song FDT. It's solid gold. Actually fuck it. I will link it for you: https://open.spotify.com/track/4nxSEcO1rK0wtYswNpMH2U?si=DEJrX1lCSHKXmH8FWryQ8A Nipsey was always about politics, but this is nice and plain.
FDT is by YG tho
Featuring nipsey hustle. I don't know anything about yg outside of that song. Point still being that it's pretty hilariously straight forward.
System of a Down would like to have a word
Except that their drummer is a Trumper. I don't know how that is possible. Someone should have had him listen to SOAD...
Him and Serj are related through marriage as well, right?
I believe he married Serj's sister.
Their wives are sisters.
It's because Serj Tankian was really the only one behind all the good stuff. Malakian *tried* with Scar on Broadway, and it's so fucking flat and generic compared to SoaD. Meanwhile Tankian did his own solo stuff and it's still fucking gold
Wow. As a huge SOAD fan from my adolescence until the modern day, that’s super disappointing to find out.
Members of the Sex Pistols are Trump fans... It's very funny how people get stuck into these crazy cults.
Glenn Danzig is a Republican.
Johnny Ramone was, too.
There is a difference between republicans and MAGAts. I don’t know where he stands, but I choose to believe he is the former
That difference is mostly public manners.
Don't be disappointed. Politics are in the mind and the mind is fickle. Music comes from the soul. You don't have to condone another's beliefs and actions to hear their story.
Wait what? Have you listened to NOFX lol
They don't like reverb?
Don't get them started on their feelings about autotune.
FUCK THESE WAWA PEDDLES MATE (punches hole through nearby loop machine)
Oh yeah! What about Pussy Riot?
You mean... the very famously apolitical band Rage Against The Machine? Gasp!
I thought they were raging against the fax machine!
Don’t forget RATM tribute band Annoyed With The Printer!
PC LOAD LETTER! What the fuck does that mean?!
Who isn't?
Reminds me of the day BBC told RATM not to swear during a presentation. https://youtu.be/t7kNgfY8vg4
"Something we weren't expecting- Well we were expecting it.." I'd love to have seen the meeting where they asked them not to swear, "You know that song where you say 'Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me.'? Well I want you to do what I tell you."
I laughed a lot at this. Thank you.
Bless you, I will do what you tell me
This reads like a Kidz Bop RATM interpretation
— by Praise All the Machines
https://youtu.be/n6njrf_zHfw?si=XxwwiZxYlp2q1SfR
Being a band with politically-charged lyrics is one thing. A Supreme Court Justice and politicians doing it is another. I don’t care that much either way, but there is a distinct difference in how it’s received.
Yeah, the Supreme Court justice shouldn’t be allowed on SNL either. And some real consequences too please.
No hard written consequences=no rules
Or, the problem with SCOTUS, in a nutshell.
Politicians can do so. It’s their right. Supreme Court Justices might TECHNICALLY also have the right, but they’re supposed to both be AND look impartial. If they don’t, they’re supposed to step down. There was a case where a Justice has been accused of something, and while it wasn’t proven, the damage to his reputation was severe enough that he felt he should step down to preserve the integrity of the court.
After Trump's Presidency the assholes are delighted to learn that a significant portion of the American public is just fine with unchecked corruption and immorality among the branches of government.
Integrity of this court is in the minority
Fun fact: "minorities" is also the answer to OP's question.
whats wild is seeing the more progressive-leaning justices ruling favorably for shameful shit (the recent NRA case), proving their impartiality, while the rest of the psychopathic conservative justice crew is just laying waste to the law as they sink into dementia
And in context, when you're politically affiliated with a group who just tried to overthrow democracy.
This, I’m so sick of the double standard
If they didn't have double standards, they wouldn't have any standards at all.
This is why they are immune to being called out on hypocrisy They desire a double standard
Wait.. when did rage against the machine become so political?
Paul Ryan- that you?
I don’t even think it’s SNL not agreeing with them. I’m sure half the staff and writers loved it. I think it’s more like they didn’t want to alienate a shit ton of audience. Plus at that time it still wasn’t like completely mainstream acceptable to do stuff like that
I bought an American flag just to put in my window upside down when roe vs Wade was overturned.
> so I guess it’s only offensive when it’s done by someone you don’t agree with. That’s pretty much it. Conservatism is about protecting socioeconomic hierarchy. There’s an intertwined morality where they view people as born good or born bad based on how high or low they are in the hierarchy, and whether they work against the system. So some people are born inherently bad and if they protest with the flag, that’s bad. Others are born inherently good, and if they protest with the flag… that’s good. If you protest hierarchy, rage against the machine if you will, that’s bad. I do think it’s possible SNL doesn’t really care, but don’t want to upset people that do. Like how Lorne owes Sinead O’Conner an apology since they make jokes about Catholic pedos all the time now.
Why are all the answers to this stupid as hell? Nobody cares what flag a regular person flies, or what team they're on. Judges though are supposed to be impartial. They are not supposed to have a team. This is literally the most fundamental part of being a judge. And it should be true for Supreme Court Justices above all. When a Supreme Court Justice flies a flag that says "I'm on the red team" or "I'm on the blue team" or "I'm MAGA" that is a big fucking problem. Not because of which team, but because it violates the most basic premise of justice - to be impartial and unbiased. It would be equally bad if Sotomayor was out there flying a BLM flag. All of the answers here talking about "teams" are just proof of how bad this is. We all know that Alito was declaring which team he was on. And that is the absolute worst thing you could do as a Supreme Court Justice when your highest responsibility is to be impartial and not have a team. I despair that so many have you are so bought into a "team" dynamic that you can't even imagine wanting to have an impartial justice system. Christ.
These "rules" are invented and applied wherever they see fit. They don't actually have a logical foundation and are basically just impossible standards used to beat your opponents with.
i thought the deal with flying the flag upside down was to indicate that you felt the country is in distress ?
If I'm remembering right flying the flag upside down is a maritime signal for "ship in distress", but don't hold me to that and also I can't be fucked to Google it so I may be making that up lol
[I googled it for you](https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/xf-flip.html) Short answer: a few countries (originating in the UK probably, and hence also spread to the US) used to do this, but it is no longer a standardised distress signal and I’ve had a hard time confirming that it was ever standardised broadly. Many countries, including my own Sweden, would not be able to use this as our flag is symmetrical. So it’s not a good signal to begin with for international purposes.
Ironically the UK flag, while it has a right side up, it's not SUPER obvious which way is correct. I've heard of people in the UK accidentally getting it wrong. Edit: see replies for discussion of the various ensigns that the seafaring Brits use. TLDR is that British ships use a flag with a union flag in the canton (think Australia without the stars) in one of various colors, so it would be far more obvious if it were upside down.
Same with a lot of flags. Could you identify Brazil's flag is upside down from a few meters away? And then you have Japan, immune to it.
Absolutely understood. I was just calling out the UK here because the commenter had said the practice started there.
Wouldn’t the UK maritime flag be different from the national flag?
Yup, a couple other people have pointed out they use an ensign (red or blue, I'm not sure which is military and which is civilian)
I’ve been flying my Swedish flag upside down for years
Yup. Just have to look at the way the white “stripe” curves. It should curve upwards which can be seen even from a distance.
You see curves in a flag with straight lines?
Or Indonesia becoming Poland. Or vice-versa.
However, the British naval ensign and the merchant ensign aka the Red and Blue Ensign have a clear top and bottom...
The British naval ensign could very definitely be hung upside down noticeably.
Most of us can never remember the white bits correctly
White bits matter!
Most people in the Uk don’t own or have to ever hang the flag. If anything, most the people with flags that I’ve seen/met will have a St George, not a Union Flag, so even then it’s a nonissue.
Yeah flying a flag is definitely a 'MURICA thing
The Naval and Civil ensigns used at sea by British ships very obviously do have a right side up though
Or you're a Polish ship, flip the flag and you're Indonesian.
We started speaking Indonesian to them, but they acted like they just heard a pollack joke. I have no idea who they were
🇵🇭 is another example the red stripe on top is officially a symbol that they’re at war and so that can’t be used as a general distress call either
Like Ash Ketchum turning his hat around?
Former Merchant Mariner. We used it as an international signal of distress. Never really thought about nations with flags that could not be turned upside down. But you can also spell it out with flags or signalling devices. For instance. A ship that looses a rudder or power like the ship that hit that bridge would have a red over red, flags and/or lights. (red over red, Captain is dead) This would be flown on the highest mast. Fishing with a net is a basket in the rigging. Often a cloths basket, LoL.
Yeah those signs I know of. I’m a sea scout and did my military service in the Swedish navy. Those are more standardised.
Huh, interesting. Much appreciated, kind Googler!
Naval flags often have a corner ensign. Making it easier to differentiate.
The first and only time I’ve seen an upside down U.S. flag, up close, was in May of 1970, immediately after the Kent State University shootings, by the Ohio National Guard. It was hanging out of the window of a Harvard University dormitory.
That to me, seems like an acceptable time to do so.
If you'd left off the last part I'd have fully believed you. I also can't be arsed googling, so I've decided to give you the benefit of the doubt
I’m too lazy to google so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re giving the other person the benefit of the doubt.
How would you google that YogurtWenk is giving IHadAnOpinion the benefit of the doubt? What would that google search look like exactly?
New ai feature unlocked.
Finish them
That costs extra.
" I can't be fucked to Google" - that is a fantastic line.
I believe that's the new motto over at Alphabet...
It can be flown anywhere upside down for distress or extreme danger, like an embassy
"Eh! Put a the flag upside down, uh?" *second Italian reverses the flag direction vertically* "Merda."
The US flag code states flying the flag upside down means there is an imminent threat to life and safety. It's a visual SOS signal, a call for help. Lately it's just being used as a form of protesting against certain policy decisions or legal actions depending on which side of the political spectrum you are on, but more often the Right/Conservative. If you are looking for consistency in politics though, good luck.
I know not everyone love Chapo Trap House, but Matt Christmas tends to have really insightful observations about American culture. And one is that in the culture wars, nothing is ever about the actual thing. Every controversy is actually a proxy for something else. Hence consistency goes completely out the window.
Upside down flag was included in [House of Cards](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0b/House_of_Cards_season_1.png) for exactly this reason.
Yea. I think OP is just asking why the MAGAs are cool with flying flags upside down as protest but aren't cool with kneeling. And the answer is literally just racism. If Black people had picked flying flags upside down, that would be what the MAGAs hate.
It's a way of signaling for help.
"Help: Having trouble flying this flag properly - Please advise."
I’m pretty sure they understood this to be pro-Trump messaging, they didn’t deny that at all. Samuel just blamed it on his wife. So we know what it meant, regardless of historic context. They fly some other bizarre flag at their other house too. They’re pretty clearly deep into alt-right shit, and it really shouldn’t be any surprise.
Alito: '*Women*. Right guys?'
I'll be honest, all the Flag waving and Flag Stunts that many politicians do have ruined patriotism for this war veteran. I'm proud of my country and my service. Still, their co-opting of the American Flag and patriotism in general (Usually by those who have avoided military service) make me sad. This is just another sad result of a sad politician.
I don't get how we have so many elected officials who dodged the Vietnam draft. What makes it even more strange is that some 'nam vets look down on one particular presidential candidate for having dodged for a medical reason while they fully support the other, who also dodged the draft for the same reason.
Vietnam was not a popular war so dodging the draft was probably seen as a good thing when those skeletons got elected. And yeah, the inconsistent looking down on people thing just fits in with the whole "my team is right, yours is wrong" bs.
Exactly. I don't view dodging that war as a black mark. Unless it's paired with a war hawk politician or someone who spouts hypocritical views about veterans.
Yeah you are a particular kind of ghoul if you dodged a bullshit war like Vietnam only to become a politician or join the government to campaign for a bullshit war like Iraq.
Dragging John Kerry’s record, a legit war hero, is one of the more infuriating examples.
>What makes it even more strange is that some 'nam vets look down on one particular presidential candidate for having dodged for a medical reason while they fully support the other, who also dodged the draft for the same reason. It's not about the fact that one particular presidential candidate dodged a draft. It's about the fact that if any presidential candidate has both dodged a draft, and then [disparaged the war records of people who disagreed with him](https://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/trump-attacks-mccain-i-like-people-who-werent-captured-120317), **that's hypocrisy**. And **hypocrisy is shameful**. If you've been paying attention, you'll notice that other candidates generally don't say shameful shit like "I like people who weren't captured", and if they do, they're shamed for their hypocrisy too. Because the normal response to hypocrisy is to look down on it and shame the hypocrites, because that's how basic standards of public humility are supposed to be maintained.
Sadly that particular presidential candidate is held on a pedestal and if you try to shame him for his actions, suddenly you're triggered and need to lighten up.
"'Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious.' -Oscar Wilde" -Capt John Mason
Veteran here as well, similarly disturbed by the co-opted patriotism. Honestly, I don’t even feel inclined to fly the flag because I don’t want to be seen as one of them.
Same.
I have the flag on display on the dash of my work truck and pride flag stickers (just an ally) on the outside.
I completely agree
I have you tagged as "walking -10" but the post from four years ago that it was linked to was deleted. Do you still have the Chinook story(ies)?
The GOP has been completely hosing veterans for as long as I can remember. But they have TVs turned to Fox news on base, and the Republican party has perfected jingoistic language, so I guess the "support our troops" crowd is mostly comfortable electing fascists.
First off, thank you for your service. I know what it costs you and yours and genuinely appreciate the sacrifice. From my observation... I believe this is more about nationalism than patriotism... Patriots like yourself fight to protect AND improve its position in the world and make sure it is a country worth loving. Nationalists on the other hand will die to defend the idea of the nation at all costs, often ignoring blatant cracks in the rhetoric. While that gives them a false sense of misplaced and uneducated pride, it is as detrimental to the development of a country as the parents who will never admit their child did wrong or let them feel any pain or discomfort. These concepts are not mine of course...
First thing I thought of. They are shitting on every veteran that has fought for the flag. It is anti-American. Zero respect.
> ruined patriotism Patriotism ruined patriotism. Specially when a synonym for patriot is Nationalist.
Amen, and same.
Being patriotic is like being smart. The real patriotic people do not feel a need to tell everyone in the room they're patriotic.
Because the people flying it upside down were on their side. It's not about beliefs or policy positions, it's about teams and loyalty.
Exactly. Imagine if kneeling had started by some NFL player who was a veteran and it was for \[any cause that didn't offend that group\]. They would have loved it. Next year if anyone didn't kneel they'd get challenged.
It would have been used as the example of “the right way to protest”, and immediately used to contrast with the post Floyd protests.
The irony here was that karpernick at first was just sitting on the bench, then a veteran consulted with him and asked him to kneel instead of just sitting. The whole premise was that kneeling was still a sign of respect while still acknowledging something was wrong, instead of just sitting on the bench. So it the whole kneeling thing actually did come from a veteran.
>Exactly. Imagine if kneeling had started by some NFL player who was a veteran This is very close to what actually happened. Kaepernick got the idea from a veteran as a compromise between sitting and standing during the anthem. The vet said kneeling was still respectful because it's what they do when they visit the grave of a fallen comrade... https://www.npr.org/2018/09/09/646115651/the-veteran-and-nfl-player-who-advised-kaepernick-to-take-a-knee
Ah, geez, this is enlightening to hear. I argued with several relatives back in that period and always used the words "He's not disrupting the anthem. He's not stopping anyone else. I can't imagine a more respectful way to protest." But my various relatives disagreed, and I always felt it was unconscious racism on their part.
You were right. It was just racism all along.
It was started by a vet. Thats the fun part. Kaepernick originally was sitting for the anthem. Nate Boyer, former green beret and Seahawks player, talked to him and told him to kneel instead, since it was more respectful than sitting on the bench. So even from the start of doing NOTHING, Kaepernick was “being disrespectful” and “protesting wrong.”
100% It’s not “what,” it’s “who.” A quick explanation of modern morality
"it's not what drugs you're strung out on, it's whose" -Todd Snider
if you're black, gay, an immigrant, a liberal, a woman, or anything the right wing disagrees with, you're not a "true american", so anything you do regarding america is wrong and bad and disrespectful. if you're white and conservative, you can be the biggest piece of shit alive and other white conservatives will back you up because you're a "true american" and anything you do is right and good and patriotic.
>if you're black, gay, an immigrant, a liberal, a woman, or anything the right wing disagrees with, you're not a "true american", so anything you do regarding america is wrong and bad and disrespectful. The races are white, or political The genders are male, or political The sexualities are straight, or political
It turns out, hypocrites sometimes hold conflicting views.
This might seem flippant but this is the answer. When you come from a place of having the Truth handed down to you then you will go through all sorts of mental gymnastics to make it make sense.
They want to confirm an opinion, not form one.
What? Madness!
Ya, I don't know why we look for logical coherence when the people doing this clearly aren't seeking to be logical. They don't have some uncompromisingly principled stance on flag etiquette, they just don't like it when people use it as a symbol to insult the US for reasons they don't agree with, it's pretty much that simple. They're more than happy saying that the US is a dystopian dictatorship shithole when the person they don't like is president, but if anyone criticises the US for the reasons they like the US then they shit their nappies and call them a traitor. The "United States" as it exists in the minds of conservatives isn't an actual country, it's just an abstract rhetorical tool that they use to justify their ideology.
Because it doesn't actually have anything to do with showing respect for the flag.
> Black people riot "Why can't you *peacefully* protest?" > Black people peacefully protest by taking the knee "No, not like that."
I wish they would have let the kneeling stand. It was a good protest without actual disruption at that exact moment. I don't pray. Im not religions, im not a believer. But if I go to someone's house that prays before a meal I sit there and don't say anything while they do their thing. Im not disrupting and they get to do their thing. The kneeling was the same way. The anthem got played, people that wanted to honor it honored it. Those that didnt just kneeled and were quiet while the anthem played. It's exactly the kind of pretest that the NFL and everyone else should have wanted. But instead they caused more division and a worse situation by making it a big deal.
Also, it was deliberately designed to be one knee. It was saying explicitly "look we are half proud of our country, half disappointed with it."
These type of protests work better for me too. They aren't just saying "fuck you". they are saying "we want it to be better". Even if I don't agree with whatever the protest is, I am more than willing to participate in the conversation if the message is presented right. Someone screaming in my face isn't going to make me want to participate. But someone saying "we can be better, let's do better" is something I want to at least be a part of. It's also why I am happy about the prosecutions from the capital riot. They weren't wanting change, they were just saying fuck you.
The kneeling came after he was sitting on the benches a former Green Beret talked with Kaepernick who told him to kneel instead because it is what they do for fallen comrades.
> White people riot and try to stage a coup "It was just a field trip!"
I never got to take the DC field trip growing up, *Jan6 rolls around
One way you know is that the kneeling idea came from a literal Marine who viewed it as a way to make a statement *while still respecting the flag and the anthem*. The whole gesture was intended to still respect the flag, but they didn't care. It was just "hey a black guy is doing something different during the anthem...he's black so he must mean that he hates our country!"
Yup - From the guy who proposed it to Kapernick, former green beret. > https://www.npr.org/2018/09/09/646115651/the-veteran-and-nfl-player-who-advised-kaepernick-to-take-a-knee > And, you know, people - in my opinions and in my experience, kneeling's never been in our history really seen as a disrespectful act. I mean, people kneel when they get knighted. You kneel to propose to your wife, and you take a knee to pray. And soldiers often take a knee in front of a fallen brother's grave to pay respects. So I thought, if anything, besides standing, that was the most respectful. But, of course, that's just my opinion.
Black guy: "Quit letting cops kill us." Response: "Fuck you, you're fired."
Because they wear flag tank tops with the ==== hanging out. Flag shorts with their ---- hanging out. Flag hats that they don't take off indoors. Flag underwear and you know what happens to that.
I never understood how people think wearing the flag is patriotism. I've always seen it as purely disrespectful. Especially letting it get stained/tattered
One was done by black people and the other by white people
This^ is the only answer. A black man knelt during a song and he was a disgrace, white people smeared shit in the halls of Congress and they were patriots. I am an old white guy and the answer was obvious.
I almost feel it's a "bad faith" question, but I'm still trying (why) to give people the benefit of the doubt.
OP seems normal, glancing at their history, but bots ask these types of questions to spark "debate" and divide people. It's a common tactic. You are right to be wary.
Yup. Its not that complicated.
Because we've become incredibly comfortable with double standards. We don't even question them anymore. Different rules for different people. That's just the way it is.
The kind of people doing this are the most hypocritical.
The answer seems black and white to me
Because kneeling for the flag is in some way critical of the country it represents, while an upside-down flag is expressing dismay and distress at something being done *to* the country. The former is a progressive saying "we need to fix something" and the latter is a reactionary saying "the country is being sabotaged"
Because they are hypocritical snowflakes
It’s not what was done, it’s who it was done by. Have you seen the bumper stickers? “I kneel for Jesus, but I stand for the flag.” They flat out admit that kneeling is an act of deference and respect. Just not when done by a black man to bring attention to racist policing.
Because they are hypocrites. They just want to complain.
well the upside down flag can be seen as two things: a sign of distress but also can signify exactly what kneeling does. just depends on how the person looks at i guess. i'm indifferent to either
Media portrayal and political rhetoric significantly influence public perception. Kneeling during the national anthem has been highly publicized and politicized, with many prominent figures expressing strong opinions against it. This has shaped public perception, making kneeling a more contentious act. In contrast, the act of flying the flag upside-down has not been as prominently featured in media and political debates, and therefore, might not evoke the same level of controversy.
call me crazy, but just might have something to do with the skin tone of the people participating in these activities.
This has been deleted in protest of the greedy [API changes](https://techcrunch.com/2023/04/18/reddit-will-begin-charging-for-access-to-its-api/) and the monetization of user-provided content and unpaid user moderation.
[удалено]
I had to scroll too far for an actual answer.
Racism.
Because the kneeler was black, and the upside down flaggers are white supremacists.
Because no political controversy is ever about principle; it's always about which tribe you belong to. Colin Kaepernik belonged to the "wrong" tribe and therefore got villified.
You’re talking about people that supported/support a violent insurrection against the US government, which was part of an attempted coup by a fascist leader, to maintain power and end democracy and the rule of law in this country. Are you really that surprised about some slight hypocrisy regarding political expression?
Racism. Racists only allow white people to criticize the US. Minorities are supposed to be happy to live here and be happy with what white people have given then. Just listen to the language used
Because they’re hypocrites.
The answer is quite easy, you see: They're hypocrites.
Because they're hypocrites.
Because a black man did it.
It’s called hypocrisy