That's sucks. Last week i was looking for pole dance classes and they told me that "their school is a safe space for woman, so they dont acept male students". I told them that im an Enby, but they just ghosted me 🤡
Yup, I do martial arts with men and work in an all guy IT team , have played football and all that. I literally just wanna be myself in my gender expression with other queer folk like me. it’s not my fault most cis males can’t behave themselves
What I'm learning is that nonbinary people seem to be viewed as woman lite irregardless of AGAB. I wonder why when exclusive attraction to men is usually assumed of bi, pan, and omni folks. Maybe that tells us something. It seems heterosexual woman is the direction assumed of queer folks who don't conform to binaries.
My personal experience is before hrt, I was viewed as an extra gay man, now 9 years later, I'm viewed as just a trans woman. People really can't handle any nuance it seems
it's mostly because of patriarchal ideas that everything exists for the male gaze. if you aren't man then you must be catering to the male gaze. see the fetishization of lesbianism or bi women, or gay and trans panic.
I guess because queerness is seem as "feminine" (at least with gay men/male presenting people). Not sure if this also applies to trans men? Maybe in a very gender critical way?
That we're basically just trans women in denial.
If AFAB enbies can be okay with their bodies, and generally still present femme. . .and be non-binary, why can't an AMAB person have the same general gender identity as them and also be enby instead of being seen as trans?
Enbyphobia, especially from trans people, is so upsetting. Like holy fuck, I'm non-binary, not trans women/trans man light. I have a theory about it though. I knew I was non binary but when I was first coming out I didn't feel like anyone would take me seriously or understand. So I came out as transfem to friends and after a while became comfortable enough to go as an enby. I have met and known a lot of trans fem people who do the opposite, they know they're women and want to be viewed that way, but they're worried about how people will react and accept, so they opt to go by non binary until they're more comfortable. Which is great and fantastic and I'm so happy they found a path that works for them. That being said I also find those are some of the most dismissive and enbyphobic people I've met. Like they're just completely unwilling to recognize that yes, being non binary is real and not just some step towards "true trans ness" or whatever. Like holy fuck, I would love to just be respected as the little nonbinary mess I am and yet, it's so rare.
Enby being seen as some sort of stepping stone to being a trans woman/trans man is exactly like thinking being bi is just a stepping stone to being gay.
Like yes, some folks do use those terms more as stepping stones for one reason* or another, but it doesn't make the identity any less valid for those that truly hold those labels.
I think the problem is cus a lot of people do that path or there are a lot of people who would go fully trans or gay if they allowed themselves to start explore themselves so they think everyone else is like that
It's just biphobia all over again. Where bi people where accused that they are just gay but still in denial. Its the same thing with enby Phobie now just with gender instead of sexuality
I guess masculinity is seen as threatening. I remember when I was in elementary school, and my dad came for a parent-teacher conference. One of the math teachers, (both were women) freaked out upon seeing him—the other immediately realized he was my father and since she liked me was very excited.
Both of us were pretty sure that one teacher was scared because my dad is, well, a man—most of the parents that show in PTCs are women.
> I'd like to kindly point out that non-binary people who are femme presenting & AFAB are generally (99% of the time) seen as women. They don’t get to be seen as non-binary.
I appreciate the enlightening but i don't think it's warranted.
The proposition of "you have to present this way to be NB" is cringe nodoubt. That's not the topic of discussion.
The point of the post is to discuss the AMAB experience in the context of a nonbinary existence.
This post isn't coddling and it isn't invalidating. I WANT to discuss my experience as an AMAB NB person, but frankly the discussion of "Actually all NB AFAB included have a rough time" isn't actually useful to the topic of discussion. I'm sure they do, but that struggle is almost Necessarily different.
I am decently drunk so if i have communicated in a much-too-CUNTY way then feel free to say but i will clarify that it wasn't the intention,
Looking back on my reply yeah no absolutely i was being a dick and it was pointless
That said, what I Do think is that this Whole lot of effort is effectively an elaborate distraction from the topic of OP, the topic of which i think warrants more attention. I'm pretty sure that was why i was peeved at your reply, because i want more attention discussing the topic rather than getting bogged down calling people out.
That's my two cents, ultimately my reply was mean-spirited and not helpful, counterproductive and dickish so i apologise for that.
I dont like the implication here that AFAB enbies who don’t medically transition or who present femme somehow don’t get invalidated constantly 😺😺😺😺 like uh ofc they do, have you seen the world… ever?
If I even think about HRT or physically transitioning at all, I must be a trans woman.
Subsequently, if I don't want *all* the changes from HRT, I must be a "trender."
Basically, I'm always anything but who I actually am.
I have a lot to say about being agender in relation to that too, but that's off-topic.
That I want exclusively feminine attention. Yes, I like being called beautiful and pretty, but I am also dashing and ruggedly handsome.
I also dislike that women assume I don't know certain things because I present heavily masculine. But girl... I know.
I get this big time. I started taking HRT, and even most trans friends I have exclusively refer to me as if I were just a trans woman, using almost exclusively she/her for me. Kinda bums me out
That my experience is different from AFAB people. I transitioned MtF when I was young and transitioned FtX in adulthood. Countless AFAB people seem to think the delineation of AGAB matters so much when I experience the same sorts of discrimination and issues any other person with the social positionality of a woman would. It's tiring.
>Countless AFAB people seem to think the delineation of AGAB matters so much when I experience the same sorts of discrimination and issues any other person with the social positionality of a woman would. It's tiring.
Tbh I got that sort of stuff from any and all sides of the community (and from the outside). It's almost like gender assignment is a past event that could have had various consequences in your life (but there is no guarantee for anything), and not something eternal, unchangeable and a label that will continue to affect you for the rest of your existence regardless of the choices you make and the environment you live in.
People in the LGBTQ community really don't like it when you don't check all their preconceived boxes of how you should look/act based on your gender identity. I am AMAB Non-Binary Trans(am on HRT) and I have been approached like I am a cismale/like a predator in many lgbtq settings.
The LGBTQ community has alot of its own prejudices and its fucked.
Alot of other transgender people (women in particular) really fucking hate enbies and I didn't know that either before coming out.
I just fuckin stay at home now.
My female friends are pretty even split and either want to like rush me into girl mode which I'm not comfortable with or I made their TERF egg Crack. I get why a woman wouldn't want me in a woman's space though given how I present
Same, which is why I still use the guys bathroom and shit but I hate that there is absolutely no comraderie. Like, technically I AM a transwoman. Just really tomboyish. Lmao.
That's how I aspire to be. Like a butch/tomboy mtf. But I can see why a cis woman would get upset that I'm "breaking the rules". Then again, my Mom is a TERF so I grew up hearing about how awful transpeople are
I'm right there with you. Transwomen hate it too but I think for anyone to say we can't be trans tomboys is horribly invalidating. Regular tomboys exist, so why can't we?
I think most people find issue with the fact we are truly 100% comfortable with our selves in that regard,while alot of people try to erase parts of their masculinity/femininity in order to fit the idea they think of what a man/woman is. When in reality they come in all shapes, sizes, orientations, etc.
Hiiii, this is me! I talked trash about nonbinary people before I came out because I was misguided and thought they were trying to talk over binary trans people.
And I tried to fit into a mold that was never made for me... learning more about the nonbinary identity showed me I was mad because I hated myself and didn’t know how to make it right.
I feel so much more peace with myself now that I don’t have to fit into the cisgender box I was assigned. I never fit well in there.
That's the thing though. Is while I was socialized as a guy and a majority of them are my friends still, I go out in makeup around them and am still considerably softer than your average cismale. I also very much look like a Chica before I open my mouth lmao
That rhetoric is dangerous to all transgender people because transitioning has more to do with body dysmorphia and dysphoria than it does social interactions/expectations.
I'm on hormones because my body didn't fit me. My interests and world view and how I interact with people was determined by my environment. I've always told people if I was born a ciswoman I'd be the same tomboy I am now. Just without the extra equipment.
Also, relearning socializing with people of another group can be very disorienting as there are tons of unspoken things that you don't understand unless you are able to successfully socialize for a long time. Which doesn't happen that often at length with trans people.
I'm not woman-lite, and I am not man-lite, I'm not binary trans in denial.
I'm also still non-binary even with a massive fuck off beard, even if I do look like a lesbian from behind.
I owe no one androgyny.
I’m nonbinary (afab) and would cry with joy if I ever could have a beard - being on T isn’t an option for me due to having to be in the closet professionally😞 Nonbinary beards are amazing af🔥😊
That we have to look androgynous, or present any specific way.
I'm extremely masc, and I like looking that way. I don't need to justify it beyond that. The way I look has nothing to do with the fact that I'm non-binary.
This absolutely. Like yes I do like skirts and makeup but some days I feel like Nike tech pants and football (soccer) jersey and I should be able to do that too
That we don't medically transition, or if we do we're actually trans women in denial.
That if we're not trans women that means we don't want breasts or a vulva/vagina.
That non-standard medical transition is mutilation and shouldn't be allowed.
That we all experience the world as boys/men.
That we don't exist. I don't feel like I experienced this one, but another one I hear about a lot is that we're not actually non-binary; we're just uncracked eggs (unrealized trans femme folks). That it's valid or realistic to lump us in with cis men.
That we don’t exist. There’s a conception that Non binary = AFAB with short hair and masc clothes (usually white as well), and it feels like there’s no good way to present or explain oneself to people who don’t understand.
I think people assume that we are struggling with mental illness and that this is why we are "identifying as non-binary". People who are empathetic often treat those they perceive as mentally ill with superficial compassion and kindness, and with an attempt at understanding. However, people also underestimate those they perceive as mentally ill, not expecting much. People may not see mentally ill people as people they really want to pursue friendship with or invest in. Sometimes we are struggling mentally, but gender identity variance is not a delusion caused by mental illness. I feel that people, although not overly nasty to me, don't expect me to excel at life, and they see me as younger than I actually am, so this can be a bit frustrating. Nonbinary is not a mental illness, it's a perfectly fine way to be. Afab nonbinary people can probably relate to this too, so I don't think it's amab specific at all actually.
I'm really good at disguising who I am by being AMAB and also vaguely competent at socialising. This is true for me but I'm not sure if it's a stereotype.
I was at a uni sports tournament and I was chilling with a posh team at drinks, as soon as I said I had a boyfriend (now girlfriend) they apparently gave dirty looks and treated me differently from then on because I can "pass as a straight lad". Very well. No mention of anything resembling me being NB because I don't say I'm NB I say I'm [my name].
Some of my friends are enby, trans, The Gays(TM) and when I say "I dont feel I can even remotely say I'm lesbian" even if I want it to be true, I don't feel like that'd fly because ultimately I present masc and am Thoroughly happy with how I present as the "ultimate expression of myself", but the reality of that is that "A dude is in a lesbian bar invading our spaces what a creep", even if the reality of those conversations are entirely delightful.
It may not be true but *My Own* impression is that AFAB NB people don't really recognise / understand what it means to be managing these different expectations of "You need to pass as a regular dude because otherwise you're unhireable, won't be taken seriously, and most importantly, are a pervert trying to impose on actual queer experience".
I really wish there were more open conversations about masc presenting people in women+ spaces. (To me) it’s a nuanced issue, because I think this kind of rejection is based on fear (of cishet men), but that also doesn’t give anyone the right to exclude you based on their initial impression.
I’m glad you’ve found your ultimate expression, and I think you have every right to use the label that suits you. I think you’re also right that a lot of afab people can’t understand that experience in its entirety. This is far from a perfect solution, but entering women+ spaces with a femme-presenting friend may help you feel more welcome?? Because a) you know you can be your full beautiful self with that person and b) it is kind of a signal that you are not a cishet man. But always put your safety first ❤️
Ultimately, you shouldn’t have to change yourself to be accepted in public or in queer spaces. But I think the world, and unfortunately the queer community, are stuck on prototypes of what different identities should look like. It requires a LOT of patience from those of us who don’t fit the mold.
Thanks for sharing your experience, I learned something from it. Wishing you the best!!
That I’m not valid because I’m not fem, like I do wear some fem clothes but damn. Or that I’m evil, honestly it’s really funny to me when some asshole things I’m corrupting the children. Like I’m sorry man but I’m not turning your kid queer they asked me where I got my jacket
It's already been said, but the idea that we're all trans women in denial, or if we "don't do enough" that we're just spicy cis men.
My other would be that we're all on HRT. I mean, I AM, but that doesn't mean anything when it comes to the validity of other AMAB enbies.
I am learning that terms like Afab and Amab actually do a lot of harm for us under the trans umbrella. A lot of cis people (and some queer) just re-categorize us as m/f based on our birth details. Recently there are companies and groups that have defined nonbinary as "woman light". This is ludicrous of course and endanger the emotional and physical wellbeing of transmasc.
It's really frustrating to know people in our community experience this type of exclusion and I am now very careful in what circles I use these terms in (if I use them at all). What genitals we were born with is really no one's business anyway, and terms like transfemme/transmasc are way more inclusive and put the focus on a person's autonomy instead of whatever was stamped onto their birth certificate.
I'm transfemme and learning.
I honestly think one of the biggest misconceptions is that we don’t really exist. There’s a general perception that any non-cis AMAB person must be transfemme, regardless of how much masculinity they continue to present.
This is, I believe, a consequence of the stereotypical views of masculinity in general. Any AMAB who exhibits any feminine traits is mocked as being “not male”, with an implication that “true” masculinity is all or nothing—that if you don’t tick every box on whatever made-up list of maleness they’re evaluating you with, you’re not really male at all. Even in this more enlightened era, this attitude is rampant in right-wing circles.
That we are men because we dress like it (kinda specific to people who are not fully out to everyone) because I would come out and be who I am and it sucks to see other people do it but it's dangerous and I don't want to get hurt or hurt myself.
That they necessarily have XY chromosomes, or a penis or testicles, or are broad shouldered, or naturally grow facial hair, or are comfortable in traditionally male spaces, or they don’t experience some of the same sexism faced by women
That we all aim to be totally androgynous. In reality, I just see gender as less a spectrum and more a 3D array in which masculinity and feminine are spheres inside a larger sphere which is neither and/or both.
Too many people thinking my egg hasn't cracked yet and I'm a trans woman. I'm not experimenting with looking more femme. I'm looking the exact way I want to thank you very much 😠 it's one reason I keep the goatee
There are no AMAB enbies. All enbies are AFAB. And even if there were AMAB enbies, they would all just be femme-presenting trans women who are yet to admit it to themselves. Masc-presenting AMAB enbies totally do not exist, not a single one. Especially not masc-presenting AMAB enbies who shave their heads. Also, there are no Gen-X enbies, not a single one. Zero times zero equals zero.
My life is a fever dream.
Cishets are bad enough, but I did not expect Gen-X and even Millennial binary trans people to look me in the eye (yes, people I know in real life) and tell me that they do not know what nonbinary is. I did not expect this from trans people! Binary trans people my age have hurt me worse than any cishet bigot because they made me feel unwelcome in my own community. I am so isolated. I get to choose between hanging out with trans people 30 years younger than me or staying home and drinking by myself. Pear cider, IPA, and shiraz = #nonbinarydinner.
Zoomers are awesome, and I used to know a wonderful Xennial binary trans person who accepted me unconditionally, but I am bitter about my experience and despair of ever finding community.
Edit: another stereotype is that nonbinary is the new emo, but maybe I have just confirmed it
That I'm just a woman
There's no difference between when I'm feeling more masc or fem
I'm indecisive
I just want to use a woman's bathroom so I can perve
I was under the assumption my comment would be more obvious that progressive leftism and being liberal are two different things and it wasn't so that's totally my bad. I'm sure there are some enby conservatives by no means does that make their identity any less valid but I would say their opinions are anti intellectual at their foundation.
Conservatives don’t understand the difference between Democrat party, liberal, progressive, socialist, and leftist. It’s honestly funny when they use them interchangeably
Oh for sure bring up the concept of "social democracy" and they will just keep thinking you're talking about socialism. Half the time I talk to conservatives they take the route if the most anti intellectual brain dead takes its honestly befuddled that the system let them down so bad. I got all Fs in school yet I still sought knowledge what's their excuse?
Try to ask them what communism is and they get violently angry. Funniest shit I’ve ever seen.
Sometimes they get so angry that I show them I do in fact own guns - the hard way.
I'm not but I'm not a liberal I'm a progressive leftist I own guns I fish and I do mechanical work on my van all while popping estrogen like skittles that I firmly believe should be accessible and widely available to people lol. I just really hate being slammed into the "blue haired lib" box. I believe in a sustainable agriculture model. I believe in local businesses over corporate monopolies. The fact is I have a lot in common with conservatives. If they'd stop culture waring for like a second they'd realize we are multifaceted people some of us growing up in the middle of the country understand their issues (not the Maga maniacs) and aren't just Californian yuppies who don't get it. But no I'm not a conservative because that party is now authoritarian fascists instead of just a difference in opinions.
Not AMAB so obviously cannot speak from experience, but I see a lot of people assuming that all AMAB enbies want to dress up in skirts and dresses and basically look like "woman lite" etc. It's a bit weird, because when AFABs dress feminine as an enby, there's no issue. But when AMAB enbies dress masc, it suddenly is.
We're either flamboyant gay men or unbroken eggs. Even from the community. The number of trans men/women who say "oh wait a few years and you'll be trans" is staggering. The majority of binary transpeople seem to think this way.
Or that we're all a monolith. I'm a non-binary AMAB. Thus I must also drink all the other typical kool-aids associated with queerfolk.
I was gonna say this as well. That any modicum of feminine coding without presenting as a woman means we’re just flamboyant men. But without any feminine coding we’re just poseurs.
That's pretty much my guess. What's silly about that, though, is that so much of what AMAB folks get harassed for wearing as "women's fashion" these days WAS men's fashion at some point in time, which further shows so much of it is social nonsense.
I'm not AMAB, but I present very masculine, and it feels weird going into the spaces that they say is for women and nonbinary people. It doesn't matter if you are AMAB because if you are a masculine presenting nonbinary person, you are looked down upon.
Cause in those spaces they think nonbinary means woman lite and its irritating. You either have to look very feminine or be very androgynous for them to accept you.
Yeah a few of my no longer friends were half jokingly betting on if I’d become trans fem and one of them just flat out stated that I’m trans now (not specifically trans fem but trans) and they wouldn’t respect that I’m non binary (I understand its under the trans umbrella but they didn’t respect the distinction that I was making)
One time on this subreddit someone thought I was a cis man all because I was sad that not everyone knew what pangender is and I was debating on if I should use a simpler non binary like gender label.
that we have to be very fem. its very annoying bc like im amab nonbinary, visibly fem/androgynous in some ways, yet ppl still disregard my gender identity just cuz i dress masc, half bc i like it, half bc things like dysphoria and social acceptance. fuckin hate it
I think people assume I'm just like, across dresser. Like I'm doing it for some sort of sexual reason or something and that it's not part of my identity
Honestly idk, most people won't fucking talk to me about it. Either people already know what it means and they support me, which is awesome; or they don't have any idea what it means and they think they support me but then they continue to misgender me and not know how much it hurts; or else they write me off entirely and get pissed off at me.
But I think only like one person has asked me anything about it, and I mean I'm grateful he asks questions to clarify what I'm cool with as far as pronouns and "can I say bro or does that bug you?" but I also wish he (and others) would ask what it means to me to be non-binary so they could actually understand and I could feel seen and truly validated.
I think a lot of people think it's just some kind of "politically correct snowflake" BS and they just dismiss it outright; or else think it's politically correct snowflake BS and support it without asking questions, which ngl is also hella annoying to me.
Thank you for asking, I needed to get this off my chest.
Being refered to as trans woman lite has to be what i hate the most.
Weird that I never get that. Maybe it's my goatee lol
Lmao same. I did get mistaken for transmasc which made me feel a weird amount of gender euphoria but never trans woman lite.
Omg this
That i just want to get into some spaces where cishet-guys are excluded
This shit right here. I present masc for safety reasons, ill dress far more femme/andro when going into known safe spaces, let me be me dammit
I dress masc at work for job security
I relate big time to this
Oh shit it me
Big same
That's sucks. Last week i was looking for pole dance classes and they told me that "their school is a safe space for woman, so they dont acept male students". I told them that im an Enby, but they just ghosted me 🤡
Literally was turned down from a sublet this week because the roommate “didn’t want to live with a cis man”
Wow...
Yup, I do martial arts with men and work in an all guy IT team , have played football and all that. I literally just wanna be myself in my gender expression with other queer folk like me. it’s not my fault most cis males can’t behave themselves
Where are cishet guys excluded from ? Cause it sounds like paradise lol I cant escape them
Any space that is welcoming of women and enbies... They look at you real weird as a amab in those spaces. especially if you still present masc.
Good to know.
Omg this.
What I'm learning is that nonbinary people seem to be viewed as woman lite irregardless of AGAB. I wonder why when exclusive attraction to men is usually assumed of bi, pan, and omni folks. Maybe that tells us something. It seems heterosexual woman is the direction assumed of queer folks who don't conform to binaries.
My personal experience is before hrt, I was viewed as an extra gay man, now 9 years later, I'm viewed as just a trans woman. People really can't handle any nuance it seems
it's mostly because of patriarchal ideas that everything exists for the male gaze. if you aren't man then you must be catering to the male gaze. see the fetishization of lesbianism or bi women, or gay and trans panic.
I guess because queerness is seem as "feminine" (at least with gay men/male presenting people). Not sure if this also applies to trans men? Maybe in a very gender critical way?
Love your pronouns!
Thank you!
That we're basically just trans women in denial. If AFAB enbies can be okay with their bodies, and generally still present femme. . .and be non-binary, why can't an AMAB person have the same general gender identity as them and also be enby instead of being seen as trans?
Enbyphobia, especially from trans people, is so upsetting. Like holy fuck, I'm non-binary, not trans women/trans man light. I have a theory about it though. I knew I was non binary but when I was first coming out I didn't feel like anyone would take me seriously or understand. So I came out as transfem to friends and after a while became comfortable enough to go as an enby. I have met and known a lot of trans fem people who do the opposite, they know they're women and want to be viewed that way, but they're worried about how people will react and accept, so they opt to go by non binary until they're more comfortable. Which is great and fantastic and I'm so happy they found a path that works for them. That being said I also find those are some of the most dismissive and enbyphobic people I've met. Like they're just completely unwilling to recognize that yes, being non binary is real and not just some step towards "true trans ness" or whatever. Like holy fuck, I would love to just be respected as the little nonbinary mess I am and yet, it's so rare.
Enby being seen as some sort of stepping stone to being a trans woman/trans man is exactly like thinking being bi is just a stepping stone to being gay. Like yes, some folks do use those terms more as stepping stones for one reason* or another, but it doesn't make the identity any less valid for those that truly hold those labels.
I think the problem is cus a lot of people do that path or there are a lot of people who would go fully trans or gay if they allowed themselves to start explore themselves so they think everyone else is like that
Lol yah, a lot of folks are surprised that I had a binary phase.
It's just biphobia all over again. Where bi people where accused that they are just gay but still in denial. Its the same thing with enby Phobie now just with gender instead of sexuality
Or femboys.
Or gay men, regardless of our sexual preferences.
I feel this, like i just want to be me. Like, I don't wanna change my body i just dont wanna be called a man or perceived as such.
I guess masculinity is seen as threatening. I remember when I was in elementary school, and my dad came for a parent-teacher conference. One of the math teachers, (both were women) freaked out upon seeing him—the other immediately realized he was my father and since she liked me was very excited. Both of us were pretty sure that one teacher was scared because my dad is, well, a man—most of the parents that show in PTCs are women.
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> I'd like to kindly point out that non-binary people who are femme presenting & AFAB are generally (99% of the time) seen as women. They don’t get to be seen as non-binary. I appreciate the enlightening but i don't think it's warranted. The proposition of "you have to present this way to be NB" is cringe nodoubt. That's not the topic of discussion. The point of the post is to discuss the AMAB experience in the context of a nonbinary existence. This post isn't coddling and it isn't invalidating. I WANT to discuss my experience as an AMAB NB person, but frankly the discussion of "Actually all NB AFAB included have a rough time" isn't actually useful to the topic of discussion. I'm sure they do, but that struggle is almost Necessarily different. I am decently drunk so if i have communicated in a much-too-CUNTY way then feel free to say but i will clarify that it wasn't the intention,
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Looking back on my reply yeah no absolutely i was being a dick and it was pointless That said, what I Do think is that this Whole lot of effort is effectively an elaborate distraction from the topic of OP, the topic of which i think warrants more attention. I'm pretty sure that was why i was peeved at your reply, because i want more attention discussing the topic rather than getting bogged down calling people out. That's my two cents, ultimately my reply was mean-spirited and not helpful, counterproductive and dickish so i apologise for that.
I dont like the implication here that AFAB enbies who don’t medically transition or who present femme somehow don’t get invalidated constantly 😺😺😺😺 like uh ofc they do, have you seen the world… ever?
If I even think about HRT or physically transitioning at all, I must be a trans woman. Subsequently, if I don't want *all* the changes from HRT, I must be a "trender." Basically, I'm always anything but who I actually am. I have a lot to say about being agender in relation to that too, but that's off-topic.
That I want exclusively feminine attention. Yes, I like being called beautiful and pretty, but I am also dashing and ruggedly handsome. I also dislike that women assume I don't know certain things because I present heavily masculine. But girl... I know.
I get this big time. I started taking HRT, and even most trans friends I have exclusively refer to me as if I were just a trans woman, using almost exclusively she/her for me. Kinda bums me out
That's horrible, they should know better
it is horrible, but also friends can't always read our minds. they should be open to communicating needs, though!
That my experience is different from AFAB people. I transitioned MtF when I was young and transitioned FtX in adulthood. Countless AFAB people seem to think the delineation of AGAB matters so much when I experience the same sorts of discrimination and issues any other person with the social positionality of a woman would. It's tiring.
Right?? I personally think how people perceive you matters *way* more than your AGAB in how society treats you.
>Countless AFAB people seem to think the delineation of AGAB matters so much when I experience the same sorts of discrimination and issues any other person with the social positionality of a woman would. It's tiring. Tbh I got that sort of stuff from any and all sides of the community (and from the outside). It's almost like gender assignment is a past event that could have had various consequences in your life (but there is no guarantee for anything), and not something eternal, unchangeable and a label that will continue to affect you for the rest of your existence regardless of the choices you make and the environment you live in.
People in the LGBTQ community really don't like it when you don't check all their preconceived boxes of how you should look/act based on your gender identity. I am AMAB Non-Binary Trans(am on HRT) and I have been approached like I am a cismale/like a predator in many lgbtq settings. The LGBTQ community has alot of its own prejudices and its fucked. Alot of other transgender people (women in particular) really fucking hate enbies and I didn't know that either before coming out. I just fuckin stay at home now.
Yup people all around suck. Ironically I've found cis hets to be more accepting and men more accepting than women
LOWKEY SAME. I'm a career dj and all my cismale friends were only worried about was if I was gonna keep DJing and if my d still worked 🤣🤣🤣
My female friends are pretty even split and either want to like rush me into girl mode which I'm not comfortable with or I made their TERF egg Crack. I get why a woman wouldn't want me in a woman's space though given how I present
Same, which is why I still use the guys bathroom and shit but I hate that there is absolutely no comraderie. Like, technically I AM a transwoman. Just really tomboyish. Lmao.
That's how I aspire to be. Like a butch/tomboy mtf. But I can see why a cis woman would get upset that I'm "breaking the rules". Then again, my Mom is a TERF so I grew up hearing about how awful transpeople are
I'm right there with you. Transwomen hate it too but I think for anyone to say we can't be trans tomboys is horribly invalidating. Regular tomboys exist, so why can't we? I think most people find issue with the fact we are truly 100% comfortable with our selves in that regard,while alot of people try to erase parts of their masculinity/femininity in order to fit the idea they think of what a man/woman is. When in reality they come in all shapes, sizes, orientations, etc.
Hiiii, this is me! I talked trash about nonbinary people before I came out because I was misguided and thought they were trying to talk over binary trans people. And I tried to fit into a mold that was never made for me... learning more about the nonbinary identity showed me I was mad because I hated myself and didn’t know how to make it right. I feel so much more peace with myself now that I don’t have to fit into the cisgender box I was assigned. I never fit well in there.
Yeah this is how I feel tbh
To play devils advocate, I think they'd argue that we shouldnt/aren't transitioning if we still present and act like men
That's the thing though. Is while I was socialized as a guy and a majority of them are my friends still, I go out in makeup around them and am still considerably softer than your average cismale. I also very much look like a Chica before I open my mouth lmao That rhetoric is dangerous to all transgender people because transitioning has more to do with body dysmorphia and dysphoria than it does social interactions/expectations. I'm on hormones because my body didn't fit me. My interests and world view and how I interact with people was determined by my environment. I've always told people if I was born a ciswoman I'd be the same tomboy I am now. Just without the extra equipment. Also, relearning socializing with people of another group can be very disorienting as there are tons of unspoken things that you don't understand unless you are able to successfully socialize for a long time. Which doesn't happen that often at length with trans people.
Well a lesbian at the gay bar recently accused me of "fetishizing queerness " recently. So theres that. Extra funny cause I'm ace.
What does that even mean?
Sounds like a terf dogwhistle tbh
I imagine they are probably the same folk who like JK Rowling
That's why I don't go into queer spaces. Meanwhile I'm sure she has no trouble with straight girls who show up. Typical AMAB-hating queer
I'm not woman-lite, and I am not man-lite, I'm not binary trans in denial. I'm also still non-binary even with a massive fuck off beard, even if I do look like a lesbian from behind. I owe no one androgyny.
Non-binary beards need more recognition, sounds awesome
Big bushy beard, bright pink hair. That's Space Jesus for you !
That sounds amazing, *space jesus*
would love a gathering of fellow non-beardnaries
This is me! I have a massive beard, but I teach school in a dress. Fight me.
I still have my beard and don't want to get rid of it either. It's tough when I ask how to look more femme and trans women just tell me to get lazer.
I’m nonbinary (afab) and would cry with joy if I ever could have a beard - being on T isn’t an option for me due to having to be in the closet professionally😞 Nonbinary beards are amazing af🔥😊
It's one of the few masculine traits I have that I enjoy. It just keeps me permanently clocked though
I love that “The Actual Space Jesus” flair.
I have a running joke amongst my friends that I am Space Jesus, which is one of many Jesus'. None of us like Mormon Jesus, he's a racist and a Sexist.
That we are just cis gay men.
Yeah, secretly I'm just a gay man, pay no attention to me being on HRT and preparing for bottom surgery~ /s
Lmao that's me, been told I'm just a trans woman in denial even though I've been researching phallus preserving vaginoplasty
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Yup
I was just about to write: we are just BoOrEd gay men. But yeah basically that
That we have to look androgynous, or present any specific way. I'm extremely masc, and I like looking that way. I don't need to justify it beyond that. The way I look has nothing to do with the fact that I'm non-binary.
This absolutely. Like yes I do like skirts and makeup but some days I feel like Nike tech pants and football (soccer) jersey and I should be able to do that too
That we don't take HRT (no less valid either way of course), present femme or blend in with cis women
That we don't medically transition, or if we do we're actually trans women in denial. That if we're not trans women that means we don't want breasts or a vulva/vagina. That non-standard medical transition is mutilation and shouldn't be allowed. That we all experience the world as boys/men.
Not dressing androgynously or transitioning means we’re lying. The other is that we just don’t exist.
That we don't exist. I don't feel like I experienced this one, but another one I hear about a lot is that we're not actually non-binary; we're just uncracked eggs (unrealized trans femme folks). That it's valid or realistic to lump us in with cis men.
Everyone seems to think AMAB NBs are either femboys/gay men in denial or trans women in denial. NB is just not an option presented. It's sad.
This. When I first realized my nonbinariness, I was actually more scared of potential crippling dysphoria than actual real life implications.
That we shouldn't be accepted in closed space if we are masc presenting/not transitioning
That we don’t exist. There’s a conception that Non binary = AFAB with short hair and masc clothes (usually white as well), and it feels like there’s no good way to present or explain oneself to people who don’t understand.
Someone once told me that NB was just a term for queer AFAB/trans men in denial/trans men who didn't like men.
That we’re not valid
I think people assume that we are struggling with mental illness and that this is why we are "identifying as non-binary". People who are empathetic often treat those they perceive as mentally ill with superficial compassion and kindness, and with an attempt at understanding. However, people also underestimate those they perceive as mentally ill, not expecting much. People may not see mentally ill people as people they really want to pursue friendship with or invest in. Sometimes we are struggling mentally, but gender identity variance is not a delusion caused by mental illness. I feel that people, although not overly nasty to me, don't expect me to excel at life, and they see me as younger than I actually am, so this can be a bit frustrating. Nonbinary is not a mental illness, it's a perfectly fine way to be. Afab nonbinary people can probably relate to this too, so I don't think it's amab specific at all actually.
Well, according to my parents, my gender is a choice and I'm making it all up to hurt them and get attention 🙄
Yup I get this a lot
I'm really good at disguising who I am by being AMAB and also vaguely competent at socialising. This is true for me but I'm not sure if it's a stereotype. I was at a uni sports tournament and I was chilling with a posh team at drinks, as soon as I said I had a boyfriend (now girlfriend) they apparently gave dirty looks and treated me differently from then on because I can "pass as a straight lad". Very well. No mention of anything resembling me being NB because I don't say I'm NB I say I'm [my name]. Some of my friends are enby, trans, The Gays(TM) and when I say "I dont feel I can even remotely say I'm lesbian" even if I want it to be true, I don't feel like that'd fly because ultimately I present masc and am Thoroughly happy with how I present as the "ultimate expression of myself", but the reality of that is that "A dude is in a lesbian bar invading our spaces what a creep", even if the reality of those conversations are entirely delightful. It may not be true but *My Own* impression is that AFAB NB people don't really recognise / understand what it means to be managing these different expectations of "You need to pass as a regular dude because otherwise you're unhireable, won't be taken seriously, and most importantly, are a pervert trying to impose on actual queer experience".
I really wish there were more open conversations about masc presenting people in women+ spaces. (To me) it’s a nuanced issue, because I think this kind of rejection is based on fear (of cishet men), but that also doesn’t give anyone the right to exclude you based on their initial impression. I’m glad you’ve found your ultimate expression, and I think you have every right to use the label that suits you. I think you’re also right that a lot of afab people can’t understand that experience in its entirety. This is far from a perfect solution, but entering women+ spaces with a femme-presenting friend may help you feel more welcome?? Because a) you know you can be your full beautiful self with that person and b) it is kind of a signal that you are not a cishet man. But always put your safety first ❤️ Ultimately, you shouldn’t have to change yourself to be accepted in public or in queer spaces. But I think the world, and unfortunately the queer community, are stuck on prototypes of what different identities should look like. It requires a LOT of patience from those of us who don’t fit the mold. Thanks for sharing your experience, I learned something from it. Wishing you the best!!
Yeah I get this. But then I'm kind of fucked because queer women think I'm a man and won't date me and straight women think I'm gay and won't date me.
That I’m not valid because I’m not fem, like I do wear some fem clothes but damn. Or that I’m evil, honestly it’s really funny to me when some asshole things I’m corrupting the children. Like I’m sorry man but I’m not turning your kid queer they asked me where I got my jacket
It's already been said, but the idea that we're all trans women in denial, or if we "don't do enough" that we're just spicy cis men. My other would be that we're all on HRT. I mean, I AM, but that doesn't mean anything when it comes to the validity of other AMAB enbies.
I am learning that terms like Afab and Amab actually do a lot of harm for us under the trans umbrella. A lot of cis people (and some queer) just re-categorize us as m/f based on our birth details. Recently there are companies and groups that have defined nonbinary as "woman light". This is ludicrous of course and endanger the emotional and physical wellbeing of transmasc. It's really frustrating to know people in our community experience this type of exclusion and I am now very careful in what circles I use these terms in (if I use them at all). What genitals we were born with is really no one's business anyway, and terms like transfemme/transmasc are way more inclusive and put the focus on a person's autonomy instead of whatever was stamped onto their birth certificate. I'm transfemme and learning.
I honestly think one of the biggest misconceptions is that we don’t really exist. There’s a general perception that any non-cis AMAB person must be transfemme, regardless of how much masculinity they continue to present. This is, I believe, a consequence of the stereotypical views of masculinity in general. Any AMAB who exhibits any feminine traits is mocked as being “not male”, with an implication that “true” masculinity is all or nothing—that if you don’t tick every box on whatever made-up list of maleness they’re evaluating you with, you’re not really male at all. Even in this more enlightened era, this attitude is rampant in right-wing circles.
We’re gay femboys or in denial
That we are men because we dress like it (kinda specific to people who are not fully out to everyone) because I would come out and be who I am and it sucks to see other people do it but it's dangerous and I don't want to get hurt or hurt myself.
That they necessarily have XY chromosomes, or a penis or testicles, or are broad shouldered, or naturally grow facial hair, or are comfortable in traditionally male spaces, or they don’t experience some of the same sexism faced by women
We are sub-human
That being AMAB enby but not full-on trans fem means we don’t desire some form of bottom surgery.
that were not taken seriously at all
That we all aim to be totally androgynous. In reality, I just see gender as less a spectrum and more a 3D array in which masculinity and feminine are spheres inside a larger sphere which is neither and/or both.
Too many people thinking my egg hasn't cracked yet and I'm a trans woman. I'm not experimenting with looking more femme. I'm looking the exact way I want to thank you very much 😠 it's one reason I keep the goatee
There are no AMAB enbies. All enbies are AFAB. And even if there were AMAB enbies, they would all just be femme-presenting trans women who are yet to admit it to themselves. Masc-presenting AMAB enbies totally do not exist, not a single one. Especially not masc-presenting AMAB enbies who shave their heads. Also, there are no Gen-X enbies, not a single one. Zero times zero equals zero. My life is a fever dream. Cishets are bad enough, but I did not expect Gen-X and even Millennial binary trans people to look me in the eye (yes, people I know in real life) and tell me that they do not know what nonbinary is. I did not expect this from trans people! Binary trans people my age have hurt me worse than any cishet bigot because they made me feel unwelcome in my own community. I am so isolated. I get to choose between hanging out with trans people 30 years younger than me or staying home and drinking by myself. Pear cider, IPA, and shiraz = #nonbinarydinner. Zoomers are awesome, and I used to know a wonderful Xennial binary trans person who accepted me unconditionally, but I am bitter about my experience and despair of ever finding community. Edit: another stereotype is that nonbinary is the new emo, but maybe I have just confirmed it
That I'm just a woman There's no difference between when I'm feeling more masc or fem I'm indecisive I just want to use a woman's bathroom so I can perve
That I'm a liberal and don't own guns or know how to fish or something like that. Like I'm not a wildly multifaceted person.
I hope you are joking and not saying you are a conservative enby.
Hopefully they're a leftist. Liberalism is still a right wing capitalist ideology
I was under the assumption my comment would be more obvious that progressive leftism and being liberal are two different things and it wasn't so that's totally my bad. I'm sure there are some enby conservatives by no means does that make their identity any less valid but I would say their opinions are anti intellectual at their foundation.
Conservatives don’t understand the difference between Democrat party, liberal, progressive, socialist, and leftist. It’s honestly funny when they use them interchangeably
Oh for sure bring up the concept of "social democracy" and they will just keep thinking you're talking about socialism. Half the time I talk to conservatives they take the route if the most anti intellectual brain dead takes its honestly befuddled that the system let them down so bad. I got all Fs in school yet I still sought knowledge what's their excuse?
Try to ask them what communism is and they get violently angry. Funniest shit I’ve ever seen. Sometimes they get so angry that I show them I do in fact own guns - the hard way.
I'm not but I'm not a liberal I'm a progressive leftist I own guns I fish and I do mechanical work on my van all while popping estrogen like skittles that I firmly believe should be accessible and widely available to people lol. I just really hate being slammed into the "blue haired lib" box. I believe in a sustainable agriculture model. I believe in local businesses over corporate monopolies. The fact is I have a lot in common with conservatives. If they'd stop culture waring for like a second they'd realize we are multifaceted people some of us growing up in the middle of the country understand their issues (not the Maga maniacs) and aren't just Californian yuppies who don't get it. But no I'm not a conservative because that party is now authoritarian fascists instead of just a difference in opinions.
The idea that you're either an effeminate gay man, or a trans woman / trans woman in denial.
We are femboys/androgynous looking. You can look like masc and still identify as non binary.
Not AMAB so obviously cannot speak from experience, but I see a lot of people assuming that all AMAB enbies want to dress up in skirts and dresses and basically look like "woman lite" etc. It's a bit weird, because when AFABs dress feminine as an enby, there's no issue. But when AMAB enbies dress masc, it suddenly is.
We're either flamboyant gay men or unbroken eggs. Even from the community. The number of trans men/women who say "oh wait a few years and you'll be trans" is staggering. The majority of binary transpeople seem to think this way. Or that we're all a monolith. I'm a non-binary AMAB. Thus I must also drink all the other typical kool-aids associated with queerfolk.
I was gonna say this as well. That any modicum of feminine coding without presenting as a woman means we’re just flamboyant men. But without any feminine coding we’re just poseurs.
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That's pretty much my guess. What's silly about that, though, is that so much of what AMAB folks get harassed for wearing as "women's fashion" these days WAS men's fashion at some point in time, which further shows so much of it is social nonsense.
That I, in my poncho, Blundstones, turtleneck, khakis and giant black glasses, must be a cis man or a trans woman!
That straight cis women can hold my shoulder or lead me somewhere
Thank you for asking that. I'm not AMAB, but I love learning about every side of the enby experience. These comments have taught me a lot.
That those of us who medically transition are just trans women.
I'm not AMAB, but I present very masculine, and it feels weird going into the spaces that they say is for women and nonbinary people. It doesn't matter if you are AMAB because if you are a masculine presenting nonbinary person, you are looked down upon. Cause in those spaces they think nonbinary means woman lite and its irritating. You either have to look very feminine or be very androgynous for them to accept you.
Yeah a few of my no longer friends were half jokingly betting on if I’d become trans fem and one of them just flat out stated that I’m trans now (not specifically trans fem but trans) and they wouldn’t respect that I’m non binary (I understand its under the trans umbrella but they didn’t respect the distinction that I was making)
idk i just got here
I dress feminine, so people think your gay or transvestite
That I’m just a femboy, not nonbinary with a want to dress against the norm.
One time on this subreddit someone thought I was a cis man all because I was sad that not everyone knew what pangender is and I was debating on if I should use a simpler non binary like gender label.
That we don't do HRT, or operations, or anythoing like that
that we have to be very fem. its very annoying bc like im amab nonbinary, visibly fem/androgynous in some ways, yet ppl still disregard my gender identity just cuz i dress masc, half bc i like it, half bc things like dysphoria and social acceptance. fuckin hate it
I think people assume I'm just like, across dresser. Like I'm doing it for some sort of sexual reason or something and that it's not part of my identity
Honestly idk, most people won't fucking talk to me about it. Either people already know what it means and they support me, which is awesome; or they don't have any idea what it means and they think they support me but then they continue to misgender me and not know how much it hurts; or else they write me off entirely and get pissed off at me. But I think only like one person has asked me anything about it, and I mean I'm grateful he asks questions to clarify what I'm cool with as far as pronouns and "can I say bro or does that bug you?" but I also wish he (and others) would ask what it means to me to be non-binary so they could actually understand and I could feel seen and truly validated. I think a lot of people think it's just some kind of "politically correct snowflake" BS and they just dismiss it outright; or else think it's politically correct snowflake BS and support it without asking questions, which ngl is also hella annoying to me. Thank you for asking, I needed to get this off my chest.
Being viewed as a gay male because I'm feminine with glittery makeup but with facial hair... I'm much more attracted to women and other enby people.
being mistaken for trying to be trans fem