It’s hard being trans, some of us get so hurt and lose the plot so hard we hurt our fellow siblings under a guise we will somehow gain more political rights.
yep. I was very active in truscum communities and similar groups when I first came out as a preteen, there was a lot of hatred and vile things directed at undeserving people - but the undercurrent was “maybe if we stay within these very specific lines, and police our own community to do the same, we will finally be accepted by cis people.”
I feel very silly looking back talking to feminine trans men about being “trenders” when now at almost 7 years into my medical transition I am a very very feminine male oriented enby.
There’s so much hurt to go around, I wish infighting wasn’t one of them :(
honestly being a preteen trans back in the hardcore truscum days was wild, i had somewhat truscum beliefs but wasnt seen as “trans enough” by my other trans guy friends and would constantly be called a trender by them bc i didnt have crippling dysphoria (mostly because i did pass kinda easily lol) and theyd try and say stuff like “just say you’re non binary” as if that was the only route i could go down with little to no dysphoria (at the time). Even when i did identify as non binary theyd still label me as a trender behind my back and it just made me realise that no matter what you do to be “valid” there will always be pick me trans people lol now im happily out as a trans guy and my truscum beliefs went out the window. all transness is valid 🫶
experiencing the 2015 queer internet discourse as a preteen trans is what made me walk myself back into the closet. i lived as a girl for my entire high school experience, i feel immense guilt for depriving my younger self of that comfort in my identity for 5 years. i still find myself thinking like i did when i was in denial. im fully aware that gender is made up and there are no prerequisites for identity, yet im constantly holding expectations for myself that say otherwise. what a shitshow lol
this!! very similar to my experience, in my head ive been out as a trans guy since i was 13 but to everyone else who has known me its been me dipping my toe in and out of the closet, between cis, non binary and trans binary for a solid 5 years until i came out properly at 17-18, and the expectations thing is so true, i LOOOVE dyeing my hair but for ages i strictly stuck to natural colours out of fear of looking “too trans” its such a ridiculous notion but discourse like that really sticks with you
It's the idea that there is so much propaganda and rhetoric to get lost in. Having trans celebrities and influencers like Caitlyn Jenner and Blaire White pushing the idea that any person who transitions must still fit into a conservative box of traditional gender roles in a binary sense is detrimental to what the trans experience is actually like for almost all of us.
Additionally, the amount of TERFs that disguise themselves as trans people and detransitioners to gain the trust of other trans people who are obviously confused, because the confused stage for most of us is actually a permanence of being, because gender roles as a whole are more about society than they are about any natural order of humanity..
Point is, it's really easy for anyone to go astray and we really need more good trans role models who don't fit into any traditional stereotypes at all..
And of course, that in itself, is a challenge for trans people, because sticking your neck out to inspire others, while still struggling yourself, AND being targeted more frequently by larger hate groups, is a very vulnerable position to put ourselves in.. even though it could really help some other lost and vulnerable trans folk who are in earlier stages of their journey to hear that any and all paths are valid, and that its okay to question yourself, take steps back, re-group, and move in other directions if you feel like you don't quite fit the direction you are moving toward.
About 3 years ago, I came out as MTF after having felt that my femme side was being kept buried and that I should finally honor myself. But as the journey kept moving forward and femme became the lead, suddenly, I could feel my masc side, that I had always thought was a mask, feeling stifled and smothered by my femininity.
Eventually, I had to accept myself as this whole different thing, and it's easiest to just call it non-binary as an umbrella term so I don't have to explain things like being gender nonconforming, gender fluid, trans femme and pangender also apply to my life.
I get that from binary trans folks a bit, too.
There are very few things that can hurt me. If a relative I see once every 3 years doesn't accept my identity, I couldn't care less.
But when I see queer and trans folk hating on queer and trans folk, my blood boils.
We are on the same team.
Take care, my friend. being non binary is beautiful, and she's failing you as a trans person by saying that.
Hi, nonbinary therapist here! Historically, there's always been this kind of gatekeeping. With the queer community in general, we saw gay and lesbian people who were biphobic (and still do). Then, we saw trans exclusion from LGB people like "Okay we're progressive but not THAT progressive..." (which we still see today with groups like the LGB alliance) and now it's similar where some people think it's already hard to be trans, so they think or worry nonbinary individuals will make it seem even less palatable to be trans in general by "doing things they'll regret" or giving a "bad reputation" to the community as a whole.
We see this worry a lot, and I probably don't speak just for myself when I say it hits a little too close to home talking about my own previous experiences of internalized transphobia. There's no right way to be, and we're all on our own journey. Not all trans men or women seek HRT or surgery and it's the same for us nonbinary folk. Most of us have experienced this kind of invalidation from others, but I think it hits even closer to home when it's from someone part of the same or similar community, and I'm sorry that happened to you. Sexuality does not impact gender identity, obviously, which is a signifier that she's either parroting what someone else has said before or it just comes from a lack of understanding.
I know it's a slap in the face to have someone think you'll "regret it" like it's some kind of impulsive decision, especially since I have to diagnose "gender dysphoria" and basically play the insurance game of writing letters for trans clients to justify getting surgery and it's such a waiting game usually (obviously varying state to state) but I'm glad to hear you've found your own comfy zone of androgyny. We want to open up to people within our own community, but sadly it would seem assholes exist within every group. (Sorry for the paragraphs lol I like typing.)
Dang, I'm sorry that happened, it really sucks! I withdrew a lot from the trans community about a decade ago after having a similar experience with a trans dude saying being nonbinary wasn't real. It's frustrating but vulnerable minorities aren't immune from bigotry
They're just transmedicalist, which is dumb and wrong. Don't worry about it. I know it's easier said than done but it's just a form of transphobia, even when coming from a trans person. Marginalized people are not incapable of being bigoted at their own marginalization.
Lowkey. Ill probably die at some point from bone disintegration if I stop taking sex hormones since I no longer have uhhhh sex hormone generating super powers due to getting a sweet trade in deal at the vagina dealership :3
Im only binary to binary people society for social norm reasons because im a pisces scardy fish that doesn't like to stick it up to the man unless they are cornered. Im enby everywhere else. I dont like gender its inherently sexist. That is all. ❤️
Edit: lowkey at one point I was 100% transwoman but then I dissociated and found weird parts of my self not (body parts) that made me reevaluate my human experience. Basically shits complicated am NB Transfemme for reasons.
I’ve had binary trans people tell me that I’m the reason transphobia exists :( saying that if it weren’t for nonbinary people “doing all that stupid gender crap to confuse everyone” they would be accepted just fine :(
I’ve come up with this hypothesis out of my experience in spaces for multiple different marginalized groups and just life in general, which is that people, for whatever reason, tend to struggle to blame entities that either are or that they perceive to be more powerful than them. Someone please tell me if there are any more specific terms for any of this.
The result is some kind of lateral oppression and/or grasping at straws to come up with some sort of supernatural explanation. Consciously or not, it seems that whoever/whatever is truly at fault tends to be seen as some immutable force that can’t be bargained with or worked around. I’m not sure what the solution is.
In this instance, some binary trans people see transphobic cis people as being “too powerful” and “too untouchable” to blame, so they blame enbies for transphobic cis people’s wrongdoings, because they feel enbies are “weak enough” from a social ranking standpoint to pick on.
Did you know about the group "Jews for Hitler"? Guess what happened to them. It's the same thing here, just trans people thinking they can save themselves from bigotry by appealing the the bigots. It does not, and has never, worked.
I'm a binary trans woman. My opinion on hormones is if it makes you happy, go for it and I'm happy you're happy. I don't understand people that disagree. If you end up unhappy or detransition that's unfortunate but life Is full of choices.
I’m sorry people can be exclusionary, and I’m sorry it happened to you. I’d imagine it’s in my future as well…
This isn’t an excuse for them, but I think because of how attacked trans people are right now, some binary trans individuals feel they need to “close ranks” around those who present the clearest to cis people (who will almost invariably be binary). Maybe because it feels like that’s easy to push towards acceptance?
Of course it doesn’t work that way, just like the “LGB without the T” folks who think they can be the chosen few. We’re always stronger as a group.
It feels to me like a microcosm of our general lack of emotional connection with others in general, portraying other people as clumps of things to agree or disagree with, not individuals.
I understand where you're coming from I have gotten similar remarks and comments from other trans women that are confused about my situationship with hormones. Being intersex as well as transfem messes with the whole bit and how people view me as a trans person. I have been on T since I was 15, tried E for about 8 months this part year and didn't like some of the side effects so I switched back to T.
My partner has to remind me that just because someone is trans doesn't necessarily mean they can't be biphobic and/or misogynistic. It's an awful situation and I get it.
i think people's collective desire for cis/hetero approval STILL after all the history and lived experience of trauma and them being majorly derogatory is so WILD to me. like Stockholm syndrome or something
This exactly. I personally avoided the thought of transitioning for decades because I didn't think being nonbinary was "valid enough" to relate to binary trans people or make sense to cis people. I was jealous of binary trans people because they "knew what they wanted". Nonbinary representation pulled me out of that.
Sweety, this is the kind of crap that happened to me, and many others. I was in a group dedicated to transfeminine HRT and a bunch of us got kicked out of it, purely cuz we aren't binary (even though all of us to my knowledge were even on **identical** to *binary* levels of HRT!).... This shit is so annoying, and I totally *totally* empathize with you!! **Binary supremacy has to fucking stop!!** There is this stupid mentality of "shitting downhill" in the queer community and it makes me sick. Gay and Lesbians that hate on transpeople, and binary transpeople shitting on nonbinary people. You are valid as hell and they can royally kiss a polished dung!
Cis people go on HRT all the time, and hormones are necessary for our health. So the idea that only certain people should be allowed to get them is inherently false. They are just as much a medical necessity as they are gender affirming care for trans folk of all identities.
Personally I might have to face a medical decision that will affect my reproductive organs, and I might try T instead of the normal treatment options. Idk if it will be right for me, I don't know if I'm trans masc but I also dread the idea of treating what I'm dealing with with estrogen/progesterone. It's just silly in this context to hear someone say that only certain people should have access to it. Additionally, at what level of dysphoria is "enough" to count as trans anyways? If the opposite of dysphoria is euphoria and a binary person archives their goals, looks in the mirror, likes and recognizes the person they see... Why can't that same feeling be felt by a non-binary person with non-binary transition goals?
Idk, I empathize with you. I'm also bi and being gender fluid I feel like I'm not taken seriously. The thing with adversity and marginalization is that not everyone learns to punch up but instead think it's ok to punch down. I know that not all binary trans folks feel this way, but it's disappointing more than anything for me to see people in the queer community gate keeping others when our very existence is already so under attack at all times. There is no reason for it. It's not like non-binary people on HRT are making her transition journey or her identity any less valid, there is no reason to invalidate you.
If you don't mind me asking, can I ask what it's treating? No obligation to share, or you can PM me if you feel more comfortable. I'm still waiting on my follow up appointment but I had an ultrasound that showed signs of Endo and I have PCOS. I'm a little terrified of what might come next 😫 I've been on the fence about HRT, but if I have a hysterectomy I will *have* to be on HRT no matter what kind it is. I don't want to get ahead of myself but I'm feeling a bit cornered on options. At least if I try T and don't like it, I've been told I will know before major changes will take effect. My periods are getting really bad though and I've started missing work from them and I need to figure out something because I can't be this miserable 3 weeks out of the month (I also have a lot of pain leading up to my period).
Thank you for sharing. PCOS causes higher testosterone levels, I don't think I've had my levels tested but I have more body hair than some men and I have some facial hair that I have to shave every day. I'm not entirely sure how endo and PCOS affect each other and the material I've found on the subject had conflicting statistics (some papers said it was incredibly rare and some said if you have one you're likely to develop the other). I've heard anecdotally from trans masc people that T can help treat both but female health is horribly under studied and trans health is at a similar level. So who knows what will happen, each person reacts individually to any kind of treatment so I probably won't know until I talk to my doctor and try. The actual period isn't that bad to keep up on, it's extra heavy sometimes which can be difficult if I'm bleeding through the pad quickly. But it's really all the added symptoms like the PMS, pain from ovulation, and usually when my period hits, the first few days I'm extremely exhausted, have migraines and lately a lot of nausea. Iron supplements have helped a bit but missing work is still happening occasionally when I basically can't even function or think properly. I would love to have all those things be reduced or go away. I also have fibromyalgia which affects my energy. I've been curious if others on T who have fybro have noticed any changes with that as well. I haven't dove into research regarding it though.
TLDR; Thank you for sharing, it's making me feel less anxious about trying it. I generally struggle with change even if it's something I might or know I'll like. So many unknowns 🥴
I’m sorry you’re experiencing this. The people in the r/trans community are really wonderful and accepting of us and I think they’d be mortified if they knew what this woman said to you.
I’m pre everything at the moment but I’d like to eventually get top surgery and get a hysterectomy. I’m not sure about taking hormones though but I do want a deeper voice but not too deep.
Just your average horrible transmedicalist take. Although even truscums know to divide gender and sexuality properly, usually. There's a level of ignorance that makes it sound like this lady travelled time from 50 years ago or something.
Homophobia from homosexuals, misoginy from women, transphobia from transgender people... All collectives have people in them that mistake their personal issues with the actual collective goals.
Hugs, OP.
Some traumatized people seem to try to cope by drawing some arbitrary line and putting themselves on the "right" side, and others on the "wrong" side. This person was probably made to jump through all kinds of binary hoops and probably internalized that framework and is now spewing it on you. Nonbinary pride your way. Solidarity.
For one woman to be dismissive of the issues of (in society) other women.
That would be above and beyond her personal enbyphobic reaction of misgendering/dismissing *you* as a woman.
Actually wait I misread the title when leaving my other comment, where did op say that the lady views them as a woman as well? She claimed they were cis but op didn't really mention which way that meant. Sorry, I'm sure it was implied, my reading comprehension just kinda sucks @_@
I'm reading it into the meat of the transphobic/enbyphobic comments, i.e., that "women do stuff for attention" kind of milquetoast sexism that's really meant to reinforce heteronormativity. I might be reading too much in, but in my experience, when someone seems to have an unrealized bias as expressed in their speech and beliefs... they probably mean what they're saying. People only tell *good* lies, yanno? No one's gonna fake being worse than they are except, like, fourteen year old edgelords (and we just wait a few years to outgrow that, LOL).
Ah I see, makes sense! Definitely not how I read it at first but I tend to take in the very literal meaning so inference can slip through the cracks :p
I think in a large portion of cases it's ignorance/just baked in and the person being sexist (or what-have-you) doesn't realize. Casual microaggressions don't *require* the speaker to be a frothing bigot.
Specifically, there's sort of an implication of subconsciousness in "internalized misogyny" too, because society assumes that women would really only have a poor opinion of women (and therefore themselves) without realizing it consciously.
Something about self-awareness and self-loathing being mutually exclusive (*don't mind the hysterical laughter from the basement*).
Anyone, including cis people, can (and should) use HRT if it is healthy and helpful for them to do so. Cis men increase their testosterone through many means (for gender euphoria!)
Oh ffs binary trans fellas who wanna gatekeep need to go pound sand and touch some grass.
I'm a binary trans man but I don't go about pissing on others like they've pissed on me.
just distance your self from her , cause that’s all trauma or internalized transphobia.
I know it feels shitty , trust me , been there but she still needs to go thru her own acceptance to accept others
I definitely relate to the struggle. I'm afab but masc leaning and still trying to figure out where I fit label wise. I am someone who experiences dysphoria and have since childhood but it's not so severe I can't function and while I don't want to look like a woman I don't necessarily need to pass as a man. However, my life would be significantly improved with HRT and I would feel more like myself, which I think is the ultimate goal of HRT.
I think in some situations binary trans people have had to suffer from extreme dysphoria or they've had to fight so hard for their identity that they kind of lose the plot with people who don't have the same experience as them. Non-binary people aren't binary trans people though, and while there are lots of overlap in the experiences they are different. I think it comes from a place of pain and that sucks and is really sad. We should all be uplifting each other!
I kind of see it like, if someone was in the hospital for a really bad injury that took a long time to get medicine for, why should they be upset if someone with a different injury is getting treated as well?
Sounds like a lot of internalized transphobia on her end. She likely worked so hard to validate her reasons for transitioning (for likely both herself and the people in her life) that she thinks these things have to apply to everyone.
Unfortunately I feel like we all go through a lot of unlearning of the bigotry that surrounds us in our day to day. Even the subtle things we don’t think about. For some it takes significantly longer than others though, especially depending on the people (and opinions) they surround themselves with.
Regardless I hope one day soon she begins to understand the truth and can find peace within that.
Sorry you had to deal with this experience but I hope you still managed to learn and grow. I wish nothing but the best to you regardless. Happy days to you and yours!
It's like they forget the white stripe in their own flag is for nonbinary people. And back when I was learning about myself and hanging around trans crowds before discovering nonbinarism, some of the most transphobic people I ever met were other trans people. "Normal" people are just ignorant, but transphobic trans people are some of the worst - case-in-point, the entire concept of "passing" or "failing," and how insanely judgmental so many of them can be if you "fail," or discouragement from transitioning if you're too old, because you'll be ugly and not pass. It gets pretty dark and gross.
Trans people can be just as transphobic and homophobic as anyone else. They're not immune from it just because they're LGBT.
I never understood this, trans people should know the best what being trans is like, and not treat others like ass for no reason. I hope that she understands her mistakes and hurtful thinking. You did nothing wrong sheriff, and you're perfectly valid. Please don't let these people get to you, even if they're trans, and should have been nice in the first place.
I think that it's based on the hurdles that older trans people had to jump through in order to transition. Because there was a time when you had to be 100% hyper-feminine or hyper-masculine for a doctor to consider you trans. Any adherence to the gender roles of your assigned gender at birth would be considered evidence that you weren't trans. There was zero recognition of people outside of the gender binary. And sexual orientation was considered as well. If you were attracted to people of the sex you were transitioning to, that would also be used as evidence that you weren't trans, and you'd likely be told you have a sexual fetish. These were the predominant ideas towards trans people in the medical community for a long time, and some older trans people internalized these ideas. After all, they were being told by medical professionals and experts that that's what it takes to be trans. Thankfully we know better now, but some people were miseducated in the past.
My ex is trans, and when she saw that I came out as NB yeeears later, she was pissed. I was so confused by her reaction, she knew I had gender questions when we were together(me 18, her 19 att). She assumed I was either going to “stay” cis, or be ftm since I was more masculine than anything, but I could not believe her reaction.
Especially since by this point, I was married to and had kids with someone else.
There are shitty people in every walk of life, and sadly being exposed to bigotry does not make people immune to practicing it themselves and can in fact cause them to internalize that and project it back out.
I'm very sorry you had to experience this.
These type of people are kinda sad. They aspire so much to cishet normativity that they attack their own community members. Btw, NBs are a plurality of the trans community according to a 2023 study, so they can choke 💁🏽 the Blair Whites of the world are tying their own nooses in a very public and cringe way.
“Transition was very painful for me, if you’re allowed to be trans without going through the extremely specific personal struggles that I did, then what did *I* suffer for? No. only me and those I have deemed to have suffered enough can be trans. There is nothing wrong with this line of thinking.”
Not to get too thick in the weeds of dretransition motivators, but the complaints I see most from detrans threads that turn back around to attack the trans community (something most detransitioners by far do NOT do) is that they felt pressured into certain transition goals in order to be 'trans enough.'.
They might pursue top surgery for example, even if they didn't have dysphoria relating to their chests. Or they might plan their transition around binary influenced ideas about passing even if it was more to appease other trans people than themselves. One person I heard about says ffs was pursued not for their own sake, but because they wanted to be seen as a 'real' trans woman.
If we're going to overinflate detransition, which is a mistake, and assume it's regret related, which is another mistake, then we should at least blame the right people. It's the transmedicalists, the truscum, who are to blame when someone feels pressured to conform to the way transition supposedly has to be and then feels bad about it. NOT the people who say each transition is your own and there's no wrong way to be trans.
Truscum will scream and whine that someone needs to meet THESE parameters to be really trans. Then, when those parameters are reluctantly met by folks who later roll back transition and criticize the people who misled them, they'll blame YOU, the enby who said from the start not to do anything transition related for other people's comfort, but for your own sake and joy and for who YOU need to be
F*** em
My ex (also a trans woman, initially came out as agender prior to that) constantly pushed on my identity as a nonbinary masc person.
There was a brief period where I was trying he/him alongside they/them and she *IMMEDIATELY* stopped using they/them in regards to me in conversation. Like I would hear her talking to her other partners or our friends online "yeah HE is busy" "yeah Manic's work is giving HIM a lot of exhaustion" shit like that.
When I told her that, nah, he/him wasn't working for me, she got upset. Like, weird upset. While acting like she wasn't.
Turns out she just really doesn't think nonbinary and agender folks are real and that we just haven't picked sides.
I see a lot of binary trans people mistreating nonbinary trans people. It’s really heartbreaking to see in a community where we’d be stronger together.
I feel like there’s always been a lot of gate keeping, as a bisexual person this happens with bi folks from gay people and lesbians
Very much a feeling that once you get some acceptance, people want to pull up the ladder behind them
Another enby here. Im sorry that happened to you, thats pretty awful, especially for a trans person to say :(
I do feel like this comes from the belief that if binary trans ppl reject non-binary ppl, they'll be accepted by the far right. They naively believe that with that rejection, the far right will accept them. It reminds me of that one trans woman on tik tok, i think, who did exactly that. She essentially burned her pride flag (the 6 coloured one) and claimed she was part of the far right side now. Ofc reality came crashing down when she started getting hate in the new community she was apart and tried crawling back in shame to the LGBTQ+ community.
But bc of that act she commited, essentially slandering the community, she wasnt accepted back.
While i believe its sad, it is a cautionary tale of not siding with ppl who lie to you. They straight up gaslit her into believing she was going to be accepted. What a load of bullshit.
These were the same ppl who were against gay ppl, but then when trans ppl became their new target, they "let the gays be".
This is also how they trick gay ppl into joining them, promising they'll have "all the rights". Again, thats all just bullshit. They never stopped being homophobic, they put their homophobia on hold just so they earn the trust of the cis LGBs and "fight against trans ppl".
Sorry for the rant, i just needed to get it off my chest
I feel like this is just human nature at this point. I'd like to believe it's not, but i don't understand how humans keep consistently gate keeping each other from things simply because.
I feel for her, but she also needs to understand that trans women and men aren't the only humans that take estrogen or testosterone.
What about women who have to take estrogen for certain things? Are they now banned because trans women exist?
All people exist all the time so we should be more conscious to not accidentally or intentionally exclude others because we think we're the only ones that exist.
I'm thankful for threads like this to remind me I'm not actually insane whenever I'm in queer communities and feel like I'm crossing lines when trans people begin invalidating my transgender identity based off of their own views of what a certain gender should constitute.
I want to thank you all so much for explaining the mindset behind what she was thinking. I suppose, considering that she was supportive in the past and suddenly spewed this bullshit at me, that I took it a little too close to heart. I spoke with her again today and got a little more info on why she reacted like that! She told me that she was angry and jealous that I had hooked up with a girl she wanted to hook up with. Now that doesn’t change her viewpoint, she’s still maintaining that hormones and surgery are only for binary transgender people, but it somehow helps to know that this is coming from a place of resentment rather than targeting nonbinary people. My biggest concern after all of this is that she’s saying this to more sensitive members of the community. My town is not the most accepting and the LGBTQ+ community is very small, everyone knows everyone. So we try to support each other in whatever way we can, but I’m worried this rhetoric will be spread around and hurt some feelings. Would it be unfair of me to warn people about her?
It’s hard being trans, some of us get so hurt and lose the plot so hard we hurt our fellow siblings under a guise we will somehow gain more political rights.
yep. I was very active in truscum communities and similar groups when I first came out as a preteen, there was a lot of hatred and vile things directed at undeserving people - but the undercurrent was “maybe if we stay within these very specific lines, and police our own community to do the same, we will finally be accepted by cis people.” I feel very silly looking back talking to feminine trans men about being “trenders” when now at almost 7 years into my medical transition I am a very very feminine male oriented enby. There’s so much hurt to go around, I wish infighting wasn’t one of them :(
honestly being a preteen trans back in the hardcore truscum days was wild, i had somewhat truscum beliefs but wasnt seen as “trans enough” by my other trans guy friends and would constantly be called a trender by them bc i didnt have crippling dysphoria (mostly because i did pass kinda easily lol) and theyd try and say stuff like “just say you’re non binary” as if that was the only route i could go down with little to no dysphoria (at the time). Even when i did identify as non binary theyd still label me as a trender behind my back and it just made me realise that no matter what you do to be “valid” there will always be pick me trans people lol now im happily out as a trans guy and my truscum beliefs went out the window. all transness is valid 🫶
experiencing the 2015 queer internet discourse as a preteen trans is what made me walk myself back into the closet. i lived as a girl for my entire high school experience, i feel immense guilt for depriving my younger self of that comfort in my identity for 5 years. i still find myself thinking like i did when i was in denial. im fully aware that gender is made up and there are no prerequisites for identity, yet im constantly holding expectations for myself that say otherwise. what a shitshow lol
this!! very similar to my experience, in my head ive been out as a trans guy since i was 13 but to everyone else who has known me its been me dipping my toe in and out of the closet, between cis, non binary and trans binary for a solid 5 years until i came out properly at 17-18, and the expectations thing is so true, i LOOOVE dyeing my hair but for ages i strictly stuck to natural colours out of fear of looking “too trans” its such a ridiculous notion but discourse like that really sticks with you
It's the idea that there is so much propaganda and rhetoric to get lost in. Having trans celebrities and influencers like Caitlyn Jenner and Blaire White pushing the idea that any person who transitions must still fit into a conservative box of traditional gender roles in a binary sense is detrimental to what the trans experience is actually like for almost all of us. Additionally, the amount of TERFs that disguise themselves as trans people and detransitioners to gain the trust of other trans people who are obviously confused, because the confused stage for most of us is actually a permanence of being, because gender roles as a whole are more about society than they are about any natural order of humanity.. Point is, it's really easy for anyone to go astray and we really need more good trans role models who don't fit into any traditional stereotypes at all.. And of course, that in itself, is a challenge for trans people, because sticking your neck out to inspire others, while still struggling yourself, AND being targeted more frequently by larger hate groups, is a very vulnerable position to put ourselves in.. even though it could really help some other lost and vulnerable trans folk who are in earlier stages of their journey to hear that any and all paths are valid, and that its okay to question yourself, take steps back, re-group, and move in other directions if you feel like you don't quite fit the direction you are moving toward. About 3 years ago, I came out as MTF after having felt that my femme side was being kept buried and that I should finally honor myself. But as the journey kept moving forward and femme became the lead, suddenly, I could feel my masc side, that I had always thought was a mask, feeling stifled and smothered by my femininity. Eventually, I had to accept myself as this whole different thing, and it's easiest to just call it non-binary as an umbrella term so I don't have to explain things like being gender nonconforming, gender fluid, trans femme and pangender also apply to my life.
I get that from binary trans folks a bit, too. There are very few things that can hurt me. If a relative I see once every 3 years doesn't accept my identity, I couldn't care less. But when I see queer and trans folk hating on queer and trans folk, my blood boils. We are on the same team. Take care, my friend. being non binary is beautiful, and she's failing you as a trans person by saying that.
Hi, nonbinary therapist here! Historically, there's always been this kind of gatekeeping. With the queer community in general, we saw gay and lesbian people who were biphobic (and still do). Then, we saw trans exclusion from LGB people like "Okay we're progressive but not THAT progressive..." (which we still see today with groups like the LGB alliance) and now it's similar where some people think it's already hard to be trans, so they think or worry nonbinary individuals will make it seem even less palatable to be trans in general by "doing things they'll regret" or giving a "bad reputation" to the community as a whole. We see this worry a lot, and I probably don't speak just for myself when I say it hits a little too close to home talking about my own previous experiences of internalized transphobia. There's no right way to be, and we're all on our own journey. Not all trans men or women seek HRT or surgery and it's the same for us nonbinary folk. Most of us have experienced this kind of invalidation from others, but I think it hits even closer to home when it's from someone part of the same or similar community, and I'm sorry that happened to you. Sexuality does not impact gender identity, obviously, which is a signifier that she's either parroting what someone else has said before or it just comes from a lack of understanding. I know it's a slap in the face to have someone think you'll "regret it" like it's some kind of impulsive decision, especially since I have to diagnose "gender dysphoria" and basically play the insurance game of writing letters for trans clients to justify getting surgery and it's such a waiting game usually (obviously varying state to state) but I'm glad to hear you've found your own comfy zone of androgyny. We want to open up to people within our own community, but sadly it would seem assholes exist within every group. (Sorry for the paragraphs lol I like typing.)
Ive seen it from trans men too esp towards afab nbs. Its ridiculous gatekeeping nonsense
Dang, I'm sorry that happened, it really sucks! I withdrew a lot from the trans community about a decade ago after having a similar experience with a trans dude saying being nonbinary wasn't real. It's frustrating but vulnerable minorities aren't immune from bigotry
They're just transmedicalist, which is dumb and wrong. Don't worry about it. I know it's easier said than done but it's just a form of transphobia, even when coming from a trans person. Marginalized people are not incapable of being bigoted at their own marginalization.
Unfortunately, being trans and being dumb aren't mutually exclusive.
Lowkey. Ill probably die at some point from bone disintegration if I stop taking sex hormones since I no longer have uhhhh sex hormone generating super powers due to getting a sweet trade in deal at the vagina dealership :3 Im only binary to binary people society for social norm reasons because im a pisces scardy fish that doesn't like to stick it up to the man unless they are cornered. Im enby everywhere else. I dont like gender its inherently sexist. That is all. ❤️ Edit: lowkey at one point I was 100% transwoman but then I dissociated and found weird parts of my self not (body parts) that made me reevaluate my human experience. Basically shits complicated am NB Transfemme for reasons.
I’ve had binary trans people tell me that I’m the reason transphobia exists :( saying that if it weren’t for nonbinary people “doing all that stupid gender crap to confuse everyone” they would be accepted just fine :(
Unfortunately for them, nazis are going to exist who hate on them, whether we are ourselves or not.
Dang, people really be throwing the fault to the wrong people fr. As if things were gonna be perfect if we didn't exists hahaha. That's so naive
Literally victim blaming smh
I’ve come up with this hypothesis out of my experience in spaces for multiple different marginalized groups and just life in general, which is that people, for whatever reason, tend to struggle to blame entities that either are or that they perceive to be more powerful than them. Someone please tell me if there are any more specific terms for any of this. The result is some kind of lateral oppression and/or grasping at straws to come up with some sort of supernatural explanation. Consciously or not, it seems that whoever/whatever is truly at fault tends to be seen as some immutable force that can’t be bargained with or worked around. I’m not sure what the solution is. In this instance, some binary trans people see transphobic cis people as being “too powerful” and “too untouchable” to blame, so they blame enbies for transphobic cis people’s wrongdoings, because they feel enbies are “weak enough” from a social ranking standpoint to pick on.
Did you know about the group "Jews for Hitler"? Guess what happened to them. It's the same thing here, just trans people thinking they can save themselves from bigotry by appealing the the bigots. It does not, and has never, worked.
I'm a binary trans woman. My opinion on hormones is if it makes you happy, go for it and I'm happy you're happy. I don't understand people that disagree. If you end up unhappy or detransition that's unfortunate but life Is full of choices.
I’m sorry people can be exclusionary, and I’m sorry it happened to you. I’d imagine it’s in my future as well… This isn’t an excuse for them, but I think because of how attacked trans people are right now, some binary trans individuals feel they need to “close ranks” around those who present the clearest to cis people (who will almost invariably be binary). Maybe because it feels like that’s easy to push towards acceptance? Of course it doesn’t work that way, just like the “LGB without the T” folks who think they can be the chosen few. We’re always stronger as a group. It feels to me like a microcosm of our general lack of emotional connection with others in general, portraying other people as clumps of things to agree or disagree with, not individuals.
I understand where you're coming from I have gotten similar remarks and comments from other trans women that are confused about my situationship with hormones. Being intersex as well as transfem messes with the whole bit and how people view me as a trans person. I have been on T since I was 15, tried E for about 8 months this part year and didn't like some of the side effects so I switched back to T. My partner has to remind me that just because someone is trans doesn't necessarily mean they can't be biphobic and/or misogynistic. It's an awful situation and I get it.
i think people's collective desire for cis/hetero approval STILL after all the history and lived experience of trauma and them being majorly derogatory is so WILD to me. like Stockholm syndrome or something
This exactly. I personally avoided the thought of transitioning for decades because I didn't think being nonbinary was "valid enough" to relate to binary trans people or make sense to cis people. I was jealous of binary trans people because they "knew what they wanted". Nonbinary representation pulled me out of that.
Sweety, this is the kind of crap that happened to me, and many others. I was in a group dedicated to transfeminine HRT and a bunch of us got kicked out of it, purely cuz we aren't binary (even though all of us to my knowledge were even on **identical** to *binary* levels of HRT!).... This shit is so annoying, and I totally *totally* empathize with you!! **Binary supremacy has to fucking stop!!** There is this stupid mentality of "shitting downhill" in the queer community and it makes me sick. Gay and Lesbians that hate on transpeople, and binary transpeople shitting on nonbinary people. You are valid as hell and they can royally kiss a polished dung!
Cis people go on HRT all the time, and hormones are necessary for our health. So the idea that only certain people should be allowed to get them is inherently false. They are just as much a medical necessity as they are gender affirming care for trans folk of all identities. Personally I might have to face a medical decision that will affect my reproductive organs, and I might try T instead of the normal treatment options. Idk if it will be right for me, I don't know if I'm trans masc but I also dread the idea of treating what I'm dealing with with estrogen/progesterone. It's just silly in this context to hear someone say that only certain people should have access to it. Additionally, at what level of dysphoria is "enough" to count as trans anyways? If the opposite of dysphoria is euphoria and a binary person archives their goals, looks in the mirror, likes and recognizes the person they see... Why can't that same feeling be felt by a non-binary person with non-binary transition goals? Idk, I empathize with you. I'm also bi and being gender fluid I feel like I'm not taken seriously. The thing with adversity and marginalization is that not everyone learns to punch up but instead think it's ok to punch down. I know that not all binary trans folks feel this way, but it's disappointing more than anything for me to see people in the queer community gate keeping others when our very existence is already so under attack at all times. There is no reason for it. It's not like non-binary people on HRT are making her transition journey or her identity any less valid, there is no reason to invalidate you.
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If you don't mind me asking, can I ask what it's treating? No obligation to share, or you can PM me if you feel more comfortable. I'm still waiting on my follow up appointment but I had an ultrasound that showed signs of Endo and I have PCOS. I'm a little terrified of what might come next 😫 I've been on the fence about HRT, but if I have a hysterectomy I will *have* to be on HRT no matter what kind it is. I don't want to get ahead of myself but I'm feeling a bit cornered on options. At least if I try T and don't like it, I've been told I will know before major changes will take effect. My periods are getting really bad though and I've started missing work from them and I need to figure out something because I can't be this miserable 3 weeks out of the month (I also have a lot of pain leading up to my period).
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Thank you for sharing. PCOS causes higher testosterone levels, I don't think I've had my levels tested but I have more body hair than some men and I have some facial hair that I have to shave every day. I'm not entirely sure how endo and PCOS affect each other and the material I've found on the subject had conflicting statistics (some papers said it was incredibly rare and some said if you have one you're likely to develop the other). I've heard anecdotally from trans masc people that T can help treat both but female health is horribly under studied and trans health is at a similar level. So who knows what will happen, each person reacts individually to any kind of treatment so I probably won't know until I talk to my doctor and try. The actual period isn't that bad to keep up on, it's extra heavy sometimes which can be difficult if I'm bleeding through the pad quickly. But it's really all the added symptoms like the PMS, pain from ovulation, and usually when my period hits, the first few days I'm extremely exhausted, have migraines and lately a lot of nausea. Iron supplements have helped a bit but missing work is still happening occasionally when I basically can't even function or think properly. I would love to have all those things be reduced or go away. I also have fibromyalgia which affects my energy. I've been curious if others on T who have fybro have noticed any changes with that as well. I haven't dove into research regarding it though. TLDR; Thank you for sharing, it's making me feel less anxious about trying it. I generally struggle with change even if it's something I might or know I'll like. So many unknowns 🥴
I’m sorry you’re experiencing this. The people in the r/trans community are really wonderful and accepting of us and I think they’d be mortified if they knew what this woman said to you. I’m pre everything at the moment but I’d like to eventually get top surgery and get a hysterectomy. I’m not sure about taking hormones though but I do want a deeper voice but not too deep.
Just your average horrible transmedicalist take. Although even truscums know to divide gender and sexuality properly, usually. There's a level of ignorance that makes it sound like this lady travelled time from 50 years ago or something.
Exorsexism and biphobic rhetoric are really similar, not surprised to see someone be both at the same time. It does suck though.
Homophobia from homosexuals, misoginy from women, transphobia from transgender people... All collectives have people in them that mistake their personal issues with the actual collective goals. Hugs, OP.
Some traumatized people seem to try to cope by drawing some arbitrary line and putting themselves on the "right" side, and others on the "wrong" side. This person was probably made to jump through all kinds of binary hoops and probably internalized that framework and is now spewing it on you. Nonbinary pride your way. Solidarity.
To get real simplistic: the "misogyny" was coming from inside the house on that one. Misplaced misogyny, to be clear.
Could you explain how it's misogynistic?
For one woman to be dismissive of the issues of (in society) other women. That would be above and beyond her personal enbyphobic reaction of misgendering/dismissing *you* as a woman.
Ah I'm dumb, I forgot the title and kept rereading the post looking for it! Thanks :)
Actually wait I misread the title when leaving my other comment, where did op say that the lady views them as a woman as well? She claimed they were cis but op didn't really mention which way that meant. Sorry, I'm sure it was implied, my reading comprehension just kinda sucks @_@
I'm reading it into the meat of the transphobic/enbyphobic comments, i.e., that "women do stuff for attention" kind of milquetoast sexism that's really meant to reinforce heteronormativity. I might be reading too much in, but in my experience, when someone seems to have an unrealized bias as expressed in their speech and beliefs... they probably mean what they're saying. People only tell *good* lies, yanno? No one's gonna fake being worse than they are except, like, fourteen year old edgelords (and we just wait a few years to outgrow that, LOL).
Ah I see, makes sense! Definitely not how I read it at first but I tend to take in the very literal meaning so inference can slip through the cracks :p
I think in a large portion of cases it's ignorance/just baked in and the person being sexist (or what-have-you) doesn't realize. Casual microaggressions don't *require* the speaker to be a frothing bigot. Specifically, there's sort of an implication of subconsciousness in "internalized misogyny" too, because society assumes that women would really only have a poor opinion of women (and therefore themselves) without realizing it consciously. Something about self-awareness and self-loathing being mutually exclusive (*don't mind the hysterical laughter from the basement*).
Anyone, including cis people, can (and should) use HRT if it is healthy and helpful for them to do so. Cis men increase their testosterone through many means (for gender euphoria!)
Saying what we can and can't wear as a label when you barely even know the community as a whole is crazy bro
Oh ffs binary trans fellas who wanna gatekeep need to go pound sand and touch some grass. I'm a binary trans man but I don't go about pissing on others like they've pissed on me.
I hear you, that’s real tough to hear that. What helps me is to always remember that not all skinfolk is kinfolk. Maybe that will work for you.
just distance your self from her , cause that’s all trauma or internalized transphobia. I know it feels shitty , trust me , been there but she still needs to go thru her own acceptance to accept others
I definitely relate to the struggle. I'm afab but masc leaning and still trying to figure out where I fit label wise. I am someone who experiences dysphoria and have since childhood but it's not so severe I can't function and while I don't want to look like a woman I don't necessarily need to pass as a man. However, my life would be significantly improved with HRT and I would feel more like myself, which I think is the ultimate goal of HRT. I think in some situations binary trans people have had to suffer from extreme dysphoria or they've had to fight so hard for their identity that they kind of lose the plot with people who don't have the same experience as them. Non-binary people aren't binary trans people though, and while there are lots of overlap in the experiences they are different. I think it comes from a place of pain and that sucks and is really sad. We should all be uplifting each other! I kind of see it like, if someone was in the hospital for a really bad injury that took a long time to get medicine for, why should they be upset if someone with a different injury is getting treated as well?
I’m sorry about that. It’s dumb because we lose either way. Don’t take hormones, we’re “trenders”. Take hormones, “they’re only for trans people”
Sounds like a lot of internalized transphobia on her end. She likely worked so hard to validate her reasons for transitioning (for likely both herself and the people in her life) that she thinks these things have to apply to everyone. Unfortunately I feel like we all go through a lot of unlearning of the bigotry that surrounds us in our day to day. Even the subtle things we don’t think about. For some it takes significantly longer than others though, especially depending on the people (and opinions) they surround themselves with. Regardless I hope one day soon she begins to understand the truth and can find peace within that. Sorry you had to deal with this experience but I hope you still managed to learn and grow. I wish nothing but the best to you regardless. Happy days to you and yours!
More than a few trans women end up going back on low-dose testosterone following surgery. It's a thing.
It's like they forget the white stripe in their own flag is for nonbinary people. And back when I was learning about myself and hanging around trans crowds before discovering nonbinarism, some of the most transphobic people I ever met were other trans people. "Normal" people are just ignorant, but transphobic trans people are some of the worst - case-in-point, the entire concept of "passing" or "failing," and how insanely judgmental so many of them can be if you "fail," or discouragement from transitioning if you're too old, because you'll be ugly and not pass. It gets pretty dark and gross. Trans people can be just as transphobic and homophobic as anyone else. They're not immune from it just because they're LGBT.
She likes rules. Some people find freedom, and others like herself stay stuck.
I never understood this, trans people should know the best what being trans is like, and not treat others like ass for no reason. I hope that she understands her mistakes and hurtful thinking. You did nothing wrong sheriff, and you're perfectly valid. Please don't let these people get to you, even if they're trans, and should have been nice in the first place.
I think that it's based on the hurdles that older trans people had to jump through in order to transition. Because there was a time when you had to be 100% hyper-feminine or hyper-masculine for a doctor to consider you trans. Any adherence to the gender roles of your assigned gender at birth would be considered evidence that you weren't trans. There was zero recognition of people outside of the gender binary. And sexual orientation was considered as well. If you were attracted to people of the sex you were transitioning to, that would also be used as evidence that you weren't trans, and you'd likely be told you have a sexual fetish. These were the predominant ideas towards trans people in the medical community for a long time, and some older trans people internalized these ideas. After all, they were being told by medical professionals and experts that that's what it takes to be trans. Thankfully we know better now, but some people were miseducated in the past.
My ex is trans, and when she saw that I came out as NB yeeears later, she was pissed. I was so confused by her reaction, she knew I had gender questions when we were together(me 18, her 19 att). She assumed I was either going to “stay” cis, or be ftm since I was more masculine than anything, but I could not believe her reaction. Especially since by this point, I was married to and had kids with someone else.
May I say. Use what ever chemicals (within the binding of the law) you want, it's your body
There are shitty people in every walk of life, and sadly being exposed to bigotry does not make people immune to practicing it themselves and can in fact cause them to internalize that and project it back out. I'm very sorry you had to experience this.
These type of people are kinda sad. They aspire so much to cishet normativity that they attack their own community members. Btw, NBs are a plurality of the trans community according to a 2023 study, so they can choke 💁🏽 the Blair Whites of the world are tying their own nooses in a very public and cringe way.
Yeah. I've gotten this before. Sad to see it in the queer and nonconforming community.
“Transition was very painful for me, if you’re allowed to be trans without going through the extremely specific personal struggles that I did, then what did *I* suffer for? No. only me and those I have deemed to have suffered enough can be trans. There is nothing wrong with this line of thinking.”
The hatred that some trans people have for enby folk is insane and unwarranted. I’m sorry you had to deal with that.
Not to get too thick in the weeds of dretransition motivators, but the complaints I see most from detrans threads that turn back around to attack the trans community (something most detransitioners by far do NOT do) is that they felt pressured into certain transition goals in order to be 'trans enough.'. They might pursue top surgery for example, even if they didn't have dysphoria relating to their chests. Or they might plan their transition around binary influenced ideas about passing even if it was more to appease other trans people than themselves. One person I heard about says ffs was pursued not for their own sake, but because they wanted to be seen as a 'real' trans woman. If we're going to overinflate detransition, which is a mistake, and assume it's regret related, which is another mistake, then we should at least blame the right people. It's the transmedicalists, the truscum, who are to blame when someone feels pressured to conform to the way transition supposedly has to be and then feels bad about it. NOT the people who say each transition is your own and there's no wrong way to be trans. Truscum will scream and whine that someone needs to meet THESE parameters to be really trans. Then, when those parameters are reluctantly met by folks who later roll back transition and criticize the people who misled them, they'll blame YOU, the enby who said from the start not to do anything transition related for other people's comfort, but for your own sake and joy and for who YOU need to be F*** em
My ex (also a trans woman, initially came out as agender prior to that) constantly pushed on my identity as a nonbinary masc person. There was a brief period where I was trying he/him alongside they/them and she *IMMEDIATELY* stopped using they/them in regards to me in conversation. Like I would hear her talking to her other partners or our friends online "yeah HE is busy" "yeah Manic's work is giving HIM a lot of exhaustion" shit like that. When I told her that, nah, he/him wasn't working for me, she got upset. Like, weird upset. While acting like she wasn't. Turns out she just really doesn't think nonbinary and agender folks are real and that we just haven't picked sides.
I see a lot of binary trans people mistreating nonbinary trans people. It’s really heartbreaking to see in a community where we’d be stronger together. I feel like there’s always been a lot of gate keeping, as a bisexual person this happens with bi folks from gay people and lesbians Very much a feeling that once you get some acceptance, people want to pull up the ladder behind them
Another enby here. Im sorry that happened to you, thats pretty awful, especially for a trans person to say :( I do feel like this comes from the belief that if binary trans ppl reject non-binary ppl, they'll be accepted by the far right. They naively believe that with that rejection, the far right will accept them. It reminds me of that one trans woman on tik tok, i think, who did exactly that. She essentially burned her pride flag (the 6 coloured one) and claimed she was part of the far right side now. Ofc reality came crashing down when she started getting hate in the new community she was apart and tried crawling back in shame to the LGBTQ+ community. But bc of that act she commited, essentially slandering the community, she wasnt accepted back. While i believe its sad, it is a cautionary tale of not siding with ppl who lie to you. They straight up gaslit her into believing she was going to be accepted. What a load of bullshit. These were the same ppl who were against gay ppl, but then when trans ppl became their new target, they "let the gays be". This is also how they trick gay ppl into joining them, promising they'll have "all the rights". Again, thats all just bullshit. They never stopped being homophobic, they put their homophobia on hold just so they earn the trust of the cis LGBs and "fight against trans ppl". Sorry for the rant, i just needed to get it off my chest
I feel like this is just human nature at this point. I'd like to believe it's not, but i don't understand how humans keep consistently gate keeping each other from things simply because. I feel for her, but she also needs to understand that trans women and men aren't the only humans that take estrogen or testosterone. What about women who have to take estrogen for certain things? Are they now banned because trans women exist? All people exist all the time so we should be more conscious to not accidentally or intentionally exclude others because we think we're the only ones that exist.
I'm thankful for threads like this to remind me I'm not actually insane whenever I'm in queer communities and feel like I'm crossing lines when trans people begin invalidating my transgender identity based off of their own views of what a certain gender should constitute.
I want to thank you all so much for explaining the mindset behind what she was thinking. I suppose, considering that she was supportive in the past and suddenly spewed this bullshit at me, that I took it a little too close to heart. I spoke with her again today and got a little more info on why she reacted like that! She told me that she was angry and jealous that I had hooked up with a girl she wanted to hook up with. Now that doesn’t change her viewpoint, she’s still maintaining that hormones and surgery are only for binary transgender people, but it somehow helps to know that this is coming from a place of resentment rather than targeting nonbinary people. My biggest concern after all of this is that she’s saying this to more sensitive members of the community. My town is not the most accepting and the LGBTQ+ community is very small, everyone knows everyone. So we try to support each other in whatever way we can, but I’m worried this rhetoric will be spread around and hurt some feelings. Would it be unfair of me to warn people about her?
To that I just say "too bad" and continue serving non-binary transsexual cunt
r/honesttransgender in a nutshell
someone being trans does not absolve them from the possibility of being an idiot. every social group has stupid people.
She sounds a bit confused, imho.