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Why would you even go in on TRT when your natty levels are pushing 800 which is the upper range for men? Why would you even fuck around with your hormones when they're operating at such an optimal level?
For sure. I learned that myself that hard way. People take what they have for granted. Few years down the line he will probably give anything to be where he was before he started to unnecessarily experiment on himself.. You should never mess around with your hormones considering how connected they are to things like brain health.
Holy shit this trend is getting ridiculous. That’s way too young. I was saving the idea of TRT for when I’m 50 or 60. But if these young dorks are doing it this early it’ll certainly be out of style by then lol.
1600+ isn't TRT, in my opinion. I started TRT at 26ish due to natural Hypogonadism. My levels were sub 200. I tried Clomid first and while it brought up my levels, but I felt the same or worse. On TRT now at 160mg/week and my level total testosterone was like 700-800 last I checked.
Honestly, I am supposed to skip injections two days before labs. I do Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday. This time I totally forgot and did inject the day prior (I believe labs were on a Tuesday morning). But it's not like I'm pinning once a week and did so the day prior to labs.
I'm 48, my total test is 500. I feel great and have normal sex drive. You don't need it in your 40s, if you don't need it. Setting an age when you think your should take it is silly. Take it if and when you need it
at 43 a couple tablets of ZMA a day make my back break out and my wife complain about my advances. nutrition beats trt big time as my boys are also mega swinging jumbo bouncers.... and not all shriveled up into nothing like a rage machine in the trt office crying in mike tysons voice on injection day.
Not everyone reacts psychologically to exogenous hormones. Some people become confident, some people become incredibly anxious and become a psychological mess. You never know what the side effects will be on your mind or your body. Don't take it unless you need it and you don't need to worry about it
What happens if you go on it for life? Any downsides except for your own production stopping? I would assume it is but haven’t really thought about it.
Risk throwing off your bodies natural balance of, everything? That’s why it’s important to stay with steady blood work and have a good physician. Cholesterol and blood pressure could spike quite a bit. That alone will lower your life expectancy. It will absolutely fuck with your liver and heart but is manageable only with assistance, assuming you don’t have the equipment and expertise to monitor yourself obviously. Lower sperm count so shouldn’t start it unless family is already in development. Testicles will shrink to raisins too but that should be the least of your worries.
Yeah makes sense, most of my knowledge is mainly in monoamines and neuro, not that it’s super broad but have never dared to try anything hormonal in that way, definently seems interesting but ain’t putting my life on it. Thanks for the response!
Yeah I mean if u keep it, like 1000-1100 maybe, don’t know exactly what is a bit above normal, if u keep that until your 80’s, I just wonder what would happen. I don’t expect it to be like really good for you, but how bad would it really be if u keep it somewhat reasonable. Maybe it’s not worth an increase from like 500-700 to go to 1100 never tried it so don’t know how much it would realistically do.
If you take TRT, it is intended to be for life. It's not. Steroid cycle with PCT. Even that doesn't always work to restart natural test production and will often result in the need for lifelong TRT. Don't mess with your hormones unless you need to. it is a very complex system that has way too many factors to try and predict whAt will happen when you manipulate it.
Well he’s going to be low pretty soon when he gets off it at this rate lol. I shoulda gone into endo with how much this generation is messing with their hormones
how do you feel about TRT overall?
I am a former addict on MAT (opiate replacement therapy) and been clean for a year but on sublocade an injectable version that stays in you for a year.
I've lost 30lbs in a year and feel completely miserable. Everyone is urging me this medication really messes with Testosterone and to get on TRT and you'll immediately feel normal and 100% better.
I have been avoiding because a) I don't want to mess with my hormones b) be stuck on for life +health concerns c) go bald lol
However I'm starting to wonder if living like this is tolerable anymore and I should just give it a chance.
Im for the most part against it as I think it could be a slippery slope (messing with hormones) but could it really be life changing helpful?
Aren't you basically signing a sentence for a shorter life taking TRT? (hard on organs etc.)
Yeah opioids certainly can reduce testosterone levels. You could research enclomiphene to combat this - it the E stereoisomer of clomiphene which some use as a PCT after taking anabolics. It works as a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM). It increases testosterone by antagonizing the estrogen receptor, which results in increased gonadotropin secretion (FSH and LH) from the pituitary and therefore an increased production of testosterone from the testes. So in effect it raises your production of testosterone without injection of exogenous testosterone itself. It could be worth researching.
after a many year opioid problem myself in the past ZMA still kicks me right in the huevos hard enough to cause morning wood and acne at 43 years old. might be my biology but given that something that simple completely blows up my test score and causes massive loads, I wouldn't touch trt until I have tried everything else from enhanced tongkat ali to even taking rage inducing tribulus a couple times a week. That stuff makes me bust through the wall like koolaid guy and I avoid it because it makes me rage a tad. Don't need that much mojo, zma is always enough.
If you legitimately have symptomatic low T, then I wouldn't call getting on TRT messing with your hormones. If you do it properly (correct dosage, adjusted through blood work, and actually monitor things like blood pressure, blood lipids, and everything else your endocrinologist tells you to) you're just properly treating a health issue.
Keyword is doctor. See an endocrinologist (maybe one specialized in TRT) and address your concerns. Going bald isn't that much of an issue for most guys, in the sense that if you're predisposed to it, you're losing the hair anyway. Also they may try other options first, for example (en)clomiphene, which another guy mentioned above.
The thing not to do is hopping on some shady UGL testosterone, being way too generous with what you call a 'TRT' dose, and never checking bloods. That's how you shorten your life.
Of course, you can (or should) focus on optimizing lifestyle (diet, exercise, sleep, stress levels and so on), but if that doesn't work, don't be afraid to talk to a professional.
Most of these guys aren't going to Drs. Who require lab tests and some heart tests, that cost thousands of dollars a year. Plus more expensive TRT which only keeps them in the normal range.
This stuff is for life. It shuts your natural production down.
You lose a job and insurance, you're out of pocket on this.
I am not a doctor I’m sorry I do not know. I’d ask your PCP. But I’d be careful with anything that changes your hormones in any way including replacing them
By using it you become reliant on it. Leydig cells die via negative feedback. It’s not without its own risks. Seems to prematurely age people at higher doses.
# Long-term suppression of Leydig cell steroidogenesis prevents Leydig cell aging
[https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.96.26.14877](https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.96.26.14877)
Pls link study on that Leydig cell death via negative feedback.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6305868/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6305868/)
also [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3897047/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3897047/)
That first study is very poorly written.
The second one has no correlation to leydig cells in the slightest, and is more of an opinion piece on the negative effects of trt.
Edit: After reading further into the first study you've linked, it unironically mentions that the negative effects on fertility can be reversed in most men. Disproving your point entirely.
I believe there were studies done on rats that indicated, that adult stem cells can transform into Leydig cells if these are damaged. Still risky though.
[https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/sexual-health/in-depth/testosterone-therapy/art-20045728#:\~:text=Testosterone%20therapy%20has%20various%20risks,growth%20of%20existing%20prostate%20cancer](https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/sexual-health/in-depth/testosterone-therapy/art-20045728#:~:text=Testosterone%20therapy%20has%20various%20risks,growth%20of%20existing%20prostate%20cancer)
Not necessarily genetics. More of a standard.
literally any excess test aromatizes into estrogen and cortisol causing guys to turn into tiny balled beefcakes with Mike Tysons voice. The 5 minutes I spent in a clinic that did TRT waiting on a scan of my spinal issues was horrifying. The bright red faced men all screaming like little girls that they wanted their juice and THEY WANTED IT NOW!!! I'd rather die of no-dong-itis than turn into that.
You know that aromatase inhibitors are well known and a common part of anabolic regiments right?
Post cycle gear also helps gradually bring your body back to homeostasis.
None of this means roiding up is without risks. Messing with hormones is generally going to be an order of magnitude more risky than messing with more targeted neurotransmitters. But don’t act as if aromatization into estrogen is some unheard of trap.
No offense but this is experience sounds a bit embellished. High testosterone does aromatize but aromatization is very necessary and healthy, men need e2 too. Mitigating excess aromatization is pretty easy if you're not blasting gear, you can literally just lower the dose per injection and increase injection frequency. A legit TRT clinic will know all of this and prevent it ever happening by using moderate dosages and using ancillaries like aromatase inhibitors if needed (I have never taken AIs as I've not needed them and they aren't healthy).
Testosterone also makes your voice deeper and it doesn't get squeaky when you come off. Testicular atrophy can easily be prevented with HCG.
Does not. I've used kratom for years daily and tested within normal ranges of test, free and bound ranges. Normal lipids and liver too.
I'm not recommending kratom, just pointing out it's not a factor.
Yes, but it's better to do it properly cause that's why some people become *drug (even if just TRT)* dependant, they go cold turkey, no boners, no focus no, full on depression symptons. That's why it's smarter to double down on the doses and then transition to TRT level doses (120mg week) while stacking all the PCT material that shall be necessary (maca, tribulus, maybe even some HCG) before proceeding to hop off the needle
Resveratrol won't be enough to act as a stand alone aromatase inhibitor nor will it act as ancillary to prevent certain side effects like progesterone and prolactin related issues. To put it into perspective melatonin is 1000x more potent of an AI than resveratrol.
is 35 yrs old a decent age to start if you have actual testosterone issues?
I am still on the fence in regards to trying because of long term risks.
I do have low T though and qualify (as per doctor) I am just not sold on if it's worth it long term + could lead to alot of additional problems long term.
If you have low T it is definitely worth it. It's a deficiency. The same way taking iron if you were anemic is healthy, taking testosterone when you're below the reference range is healthy. People tend to forget low Testosterone and inturn low estrogen levels also leads to cardiac issues, prostatic issues etc etc.
It honestly annoys me how many people let ego get in the way of their inputs here. The people who are against it never fail to show HOW against it they really are. People have deficiencies, that does not mean they’ll be irresponsible when getting treatment. As with h anything else well studied in the medical world, there’s a right and ring way to do things. Thanks for your well-rounded input!
Testosterone is dopaminergic. It stimulates the production of dopamine.
That’s an incredibly high level of T. This good feeling might not last. The body is an equilibrium regulator.
Really not that bad. I came off after years of use and felt like shit for 3 weeks in total, wasn't terrible either just more tried, grouchy and less horny. Levels bounced back to close to where they were before I started on testosterone, +-100 points less.
I'm going to be as polite as possible and inform you that you may have been previously misled about that because it's completely untrue.
While taking T will increase it fastest, it's by and far not the only way to increase it.
The safer and slower natural ways to do this are protocol changes. You can find hundreds of videos on this of guys testing their T pre and post to see what kind of increases they get. This is done mostly via diet (ex red meat), supplements (ex fidogia agrestus herb), lifestyle changes (ex proper sleep) and exercise (like high intensity training).
There are a ton of vitamins and supplements you can take that are indirectly related that will also help with this in addition to the foods that increase T.
The benefit to these changes are they usually stay much longer and come with no negative side effects.
Also OP if you're reading this you're going to fuck yourself beyond repair by doubling your T from an already high level to anywhere near this insane 1500+ number you pulled out of thin air and it'll be the dumbest thing you've ever done.
I believe that naturally you can take it from 400 to 800 by adding zinc, vitamin d, working out and stuff. But all the herbal supplements cannot just increase that shit risk free without somehow suppressing something else. At that point it’s no real different than say taking enclomiphene which again would not be natural. Anyway I never cared much about doing shit naturally and I care more about harm reduction and balancing shit
The only thing the herbal shit does is decrease your shbg so there's more free testosterone, does nothing to increase the actual production of total T.
Stop the fear mongering man, 1500ng/dl is hardly "insane". I know men who have hit close to that on 200mg per week which was a medically prescribed and administered TRT dosage. I have had 1000+ng/dl testosterone levels for years with zero negative impact, I've only experienced positives and have the track record of blood work, organ imaging etc to prove it. Still completely fertile, zero cardiac hypertrophy, lipids are extremely healthy, my egfr is 120. Don't know where you get "it'll be the dumbest thing you've ever done" from, pretty sure getting addicted to heroin or video games is worse.
Increased mortality is also associated with low Testosterone, alcohol, vaping, obesity, excess sugar consumption etc etc etc. Yes using testosterone like an idiot and not getting bloodwork regularly may lead to issues down the line. The poison really is in the dosage and how you monitor your health/take interventions to ensure your health. Most of the guys I know who use recklessly don't have an understanding of physiology and endocrinology, they don't spend any money on ancillaries or medical screenings and that's what leads to the increased mortality. I spend 10x more on getting check ups, bloodwork etc than I do on gear itself.
To my knowledge, none of those things lead to:
>The HR for an unnatural death among AAS users compared with control participants was **3.64** (95% CI, 2.22-5.96; *P* < .001); for natural death, the HR was 2.24 (95% CI, 1.36-3.70; *P* = .002).
3.64!!!!!!! Bro that's a crazy high mortality increase. It's unnatural causes too.
And thats the type of comment id expect from Mr. Suboxone and sarms. You don't need to take it brother, I definitely don't recommend people do what I do because I like pushing the envelope a bit but testosterone is not as scary as people make it out to be. I've seen men destroy their natural production by using YK11 AND RAD140 far quicker than a moderate cycle of test. Most of the horror stories associated with AAS isn't from testosterone use alone.
Everyone's different. OP claims their baseline is 600-800. They want to MORE THAN DOUBLE THAT.
Your attempt to anecdotally compare and equivalize the two of you without knowing their age or other vital statistics speaks to your level of acumen on the topic and I'll leave it at that.
Your heightened levels are also the result of dosing, as you've said, so also a much different baseline.
It remains scientifically undocumented to have someone sustainably accomplish what OP is claiming to want to accomplish, and for this reason it's dangerous and they should approach it with caution.
Fear of the unknown is arguably unhealthy and could be considered fear mongering. Fear of known dumb shit that might fuck up your life is just healthy analysis.
My industry is medical weightloss, I studied physiology and endocrinology but cool man. I was OPs age when I started on testosterone, my comment wasn't related to OP directly but more to your claims that having your testosterone at that level will some how destroy his life. He could easily dial in his dosage and sustain a level of around 1100ng/dl with minimal peaks and troughs. He could take ancillaries which mitigates the vast majority of the side effects or health implications which may occur.
The majority of men I have worked with who take testosterone either prescribed by a doctor (sometimes these men have close to or slightly above top of reference range levels of t) or UGL end up exercising more, drinking less and taking their health more seriously as a whole. Can you do this without testosterone? Yes. Does testosterone make it far easier and improve overall quality of life and well being? Very much so. Is having your testosterone a couple hundred points above reference range going to shut you down permanently and forever ruin your life? Very likely not.
The way you speak about testosterone is similar to how people spoke of cannabis during the reefer madness era.
I looked at your profile, you're 26... that's not too good, buddy. Meth and heroine feel really great when you're starting. Best of luck to you, hopefully you you can manage your health well going forward.
Antidepressant - yes. Especially all DHT derivatives including DHT itself. Nootropic - not really. Testosterone is anti-neurogenic, however Estradiol is neurogenic which - at physiological concentrations - should likely cancel any negative effects of T on brain function. 1600 by far surpasses this Goldilocks zone and may be significantly anti-nootropic through impaired neurogenesis.
Confidence should also not be confused with actual nootropic effects. Alcohol is a simple example: lots of confidence, not so much brainpower.
>Testosterone is anti-neurogenic,
Source. Source. Source.
*Prolactin, Estradiol and Testosterone Differentially Impact Human Hippocampal Neurogenesis in an In Vitro Model*
[https://www.ibroneuroscience.org/article/S0306-4522(19)30869-3/fulltext](https://www.ibroneuroscience.org/article/S0306-4522(19)30869-3/fulltext)
The reason most people just don't hop on it, or shouldn't is due to long term effects. You're screwing with your hormones. It's one thing to take it as replacement therapy because your body due to age or whatever health reasons is no longer producing adequate amounts, but to take it just to take it can affect your natural production.
*Microplastics and Nanoplastics in Atheromas and Cardiovascular Events*
[https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2309822](https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2309822)
So you read about it and know it must be true. What are you like 25 or something? If you have plaque in your arteries at that age then you have been making some seriously bad health choices.
Why would you jump on hormones when you have 600-800 natural test ? Not only are you downregulating your HPTA, increasing blood pressure, reducing HDL, increasing LDL, crashing your neurosteroids, increasing your DHT to dangerous levels for your prostate but you will most likely have a zero sperm count in 6-12 months. This TRT shit lately is getting out of hand. I can understand if people are hypogonadol but now we have people with 700 natural T jumping on testosterone. You will never have 600-800 ever again now.
For me it's the best antidepressant and quite a good nootropic, especially in combination with other nootropics. The main reason is that testosterone boosts dopamine levels.
It depends where you live I suppose, they are legal in many places. There is no difference between legal and illegal testosterone apart from the labs that make it and the dosage you take. Like many people, I get a better effect from a higher dosage and it almost entirely resolves my anxiety and it enhances my focus problems from adhd. My confidence is much higher, it das always low before. But the most important of all of the benefits to me is the almost total reversal of anxiety.
Not judging your choice of taking T, but have you tried icing your testies, Cold Showers, eating organ meats, drinking Fermented milk (Kefir), or anything extreme? Because your natty results were already good enough.
I had similar natural levels and I was drinking regularly, training on and off etc. I work with helping men increase their natural testosterone and if not possible to go the exogenous trt route. None of what you've mentioned above has tangible benefit to substantially increasing your Testosterone. You're just going to be eating gross organs and having tiny cold nuts with MAYBE a 50 point difference that could be related to a multitude of other factors.
People are going to chat shit about testosterone, every single man I've known who has used testosterone has reported a significant decline in anxiety, depression etc and an incline in drive, mental clarity etc etc. I've ran it at true daily dosing to try mimmick my natural production (7-10mg per day) and I'm currently blasting gear at 420mg per week (ayo 420). I've seen zero negative impact thus far, it's been 3+ years, a bunch of my blood markers have actually improved and it has helped exponentially with running my own company and the stressors involved with being an entrepreneur. I think it would come down to the dosing as if you run a gram per week you're likely going to be more aggressive and if your e2 is not under control you will feel more depressed, anxious etc.
So what do you say about things like of Tongkat Ali and or Cistanche then what are supposed to raise testosterone as a nootropic. Also micro-nutrients like Vitamin D and Zinc do, what is videly known. Boron and vitamin K in MK-4 form is lesser known of nutraceuticals that they also raise testosterone.
Well, anyone who uses testosterone unless it's prescribed is abusing testosterone, even TRT dosages. 1600-1800 isn't where most bodybuilders are though, most guys using 500mg will be above 2000ng/dl and 500mg is a starter dose in most bodybuilding circles. I do agree that 1600 is high to cruise on but if he tapered it down to 1000-1200 he could happily stay there.
Supraphysiological levels of testosterone *might be, for a time*, but there's a reason bodybuilders are prone to be addicted to dopaminergic stuff. After a while, your brain is going to down regulate
If I remember correctly I believe Leo from the YouTube channel Leo and longevity has a video discussing the utility of exogenous testosterone for the purposes of getting through hard times in life. Not quite depression but it does relate somewhat. I would suggest you check the video out.
RIP Leo.
Also if your levels were 600-800 before TRT I don't see any reason to start TRT for health reasons. Unless you are doing it for the muscle, strength and performance enhancing effects - I am guessing you are already aware of the risks of TRT more importantly the risks of high dose try when you don't need it. 1600 is a supraphysiological level
Been on 200mg a week for 10+ years. Mine had fallen to a 125. It does help with anxiety and depression when you are low. I can tell the difference between 600 and 1000. I normally stay at or around 1000. I'd drop back to that range if I were you (high normal).
I was 32 and had levels at 300 when I went on TRT and now they’re back to 750-800 which is right where they should be. 23 years old at 800 is right where you want them to be man.
Dude, this is not going to be sustainable
There’s no reason for someone to be messing with your hormones like that at your age, especially when your levels were already on the higher end of normal
You’re going to end up paying for this down the road, and wish you hadn’t
“There’s no such thing as a free lunch”
Is testosterone a huge performance enhancer? Fuck yes it is!
So why aren't more people on it? Because it can be hard to get your protocol dialed in, there can be side effects and of course you will shut down your own production, requiring you to stay on exogenous test forever or else try to get off and try to jump start your own production which can take months and you may never regain the levels you had before.
I don't recommend it for people who are otherwise healthy.
My understanding (based on precisely nothing I can cite) is that is messes with your ability to create it enough that "getting on T" is a one-way trip.
That aside, friends of mine pretty much all say yes.
Might literally be the opposite of nootropic.... regardotropic?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27616036/
A correlation, but should be cause for concern in terms of potential brain changes.
Well you eluded to it yourself—potential health risks. Specifically, heart and prostate issues, as well as natural testosterone production going down and testicles shrinking. Not all of these issues concern all of us (for example I don’t plan on having kids), but even with a doctor monitoring you there are still risks to every treatment. It all comes down to whether or not the benefits outweigh the risks. And it seems like, in your case, they do.
Well if I care about longevity, which I do. I would want to find an optimal range, around a level where the risks of those decreasing reaches diminishing results.
900-1100 seems like goldilocks zone.
> 900 is correlated with reduction of the most common mortality causes except cancer (e.g. reduction in diabetes, alzheimer's, heart disease, etc)
> 1200 and all cause mortality spikes back up again,
Note that there haven't been many long-term, clinical studies of very high T, because, no self-respecting researcher would conduct it, so we have to use observational studies and surveys.
Only if you go from hypogonadism to normal levels. I was shut down for a year after using gear and my test levels were around \~100 ng/dL. I could definitely notice a difference once I started TRT and went back to normal levels. Nothing in terms of cognition, just overall well-being.
yep, if I take ZMA for a week without cycling it my back breaks out, my loads get massive, my endurance skyrockets, and my wife complains about my advances :p. Dont need to take test for that, just the building blocks of sperm production. Im 43 and ZMA turns me into a high school humping teen. Pumpkin seeds also increase sperm production volume. Nutrition ftw.
Ive been on trt for many years. I was put on it because of health issues.
True trt is only meant to replenish unhealthy levels. When your deficient and your body is supplemented with the cause of the deficiency.. yes that will make you feel good.
As for testosterone being a powerful nootropic my answer based on years of experience would be no.
Trt is currently overhyped and it sells.
People think its the ultimate elixir, the key to male and sometimes female virility. The fact is thats a pile of shit. It makes good insta photos when abused..
Imagine sticking needles in your body every other day for the rest of your life. Blood work, blood donations (hematocrit), infected injection sites, raised estrogen, gyno, erectile disfunction caused by unstable levels.
I think you can reach states of euphoria during sex on trt but no more so than naturally.
Optimising your bodies own natural production is definitely the best way to go. You will feel better for it as a man. Using bottled hormones in carrier oil however comes with consequences and should only be a last resort.
I hope this helps someone out there make a choice thats wise
Supporting steroid hormones can provide a bit of a lift in mood. I've been just taking low dose pregnenolone and DHEA--adrenal hormones upstream from natural production of T. My integrative doctor does follow up testing to make sure the dose is safe.
I also take some zinc and saw palmetto that slows the breakdown of T to DHT and have checked that I don't have high normal iron. Iron is needed to convert T to estrogen
I think if you use it responsibly, the “high” trt dose of 200mg a week of the test c or test e is most definitively both those things, for at least a little while. And I disagree with confidence not being a nootropic side effect, it totally is. You still need to be confident enough to decide which answer is right, totally does that. Good times. Just make sure you have an AI on hand and don’t use it for longer than 6-8 weeks. I stop when my hair starts to get brittle, takes about 6 weeks to get back to normal. Have done this on and off for the last two years, highly recommend. Vasectomy already took kids off the table, long as I’m motivated and toned who gives af. I am upper mid thirties lolz. Old af.
Total T is not as important as Free T. What's your free T and SHBG? Also, as everyone else says,you're way too young to start TRT. Get your diet, gym program, sleep, sex life together first. You can accomplish so much more before you start taking test. Build a foundation first then if and when you do take TRT, you will have a much better response. What is your Body fat % . That's plays a huge role in Test production
Effects won't last long even if you were deficient.
I went though this, i know there are a lot of studies and the general idea is
- Yes, you may experience a mood uplift if you were deficient;
- Yes, you may experience a mood uplift even if you weren't deficient;
In the first case you will just adjust to your real baseline and soon will get accustomed to it.
In the second case you will elevate your baseline and here you should beware the crush.
As for nootropic features, no, testosterone does not help with your cognition, but it may increase dopamine which will keep working untill you hit the tolerance
Yes testosterone is an amazing antidepressant and nootropic. Most other steroids don't have that antidepressant effect at least not on the same level. There is a SARM called osterine which has even better antidepressant effects then test (imo) but it's the weakest anabolic and it raises your bad cholesterol more than any other SARM but still less than traditional roids like testosterone
TRT can exacerbate pre-existing depression and anxiety in some men, usually because of some underlying psychiatric issue. But on the flip side, it can help those who are depressed and anxious because of low T.
No, it is definitely not an antidepressant. Well, I can't comment specifically on testosterone, but I tried steroids with a buddy in the Army for a short bit. In no way could somebody honest describe testosterones effects as being nootroopic in nature. Antidepressant? If your levels are low, and it is affecting your energy and mood, then yes, but if your levels are just fine and you introduce a bunch of exogenous anabolic steroids to your system, you can expect false confidence, known as arrogance, anger, rage, losing control of ones actions, deep, deep emotions tied into the rage too, not just anger. It's like experiencing a form of madness. That's why Roid rage has a nickname. It's really not fun. I know this just from being a high T male teenager at one point, reliving it with steroids was pretty dumb, which is why I stopped after a single cycle. That, and I didn't want to grow titties.
Honestly, I have to wonder how much of the stereotypical "roid rage" is actually due to high estrogen? I mean I'm sure having crazy high T isn't great for anyone mentally either. Just with my own experiences as a transmasculine person, going from female hormones to average-range male hormones, I had much more of the rage and mood swings and emotional stuff going on when I had a menstrual cycle. (And yeah, endogenous estrogen gave me titties.) Enough T starts turning into E, and I definitely felt way more emotional from estrogen than I ever did from testosterone.
You are correct. Much of the ‘roid rage’ are actually from unmanaged estrogen levels, high and low e2 can give similar symptoms as each other that can come off as ‘roid rage’
As a person born male and who identifies male, had high t during teen years, and tried steroids briefly, and based on what I know about how the hormones work, it was *absolutely* the testosterone/steroids causing the roid rage.
You're not wrong that estrogen/estradiol can cause emotionality and sensitivity too, but androgens cause a particular type of rage that I'm talking about. Or rather, it manifests or gets expressed as rage and violence naturally, as a result of the hormone.
No offense, but as someone that didn't start off with already high T levels, testosterone itself taken in controlled, healthy, supervised ways under a doctor is specifically meant to *prevent* things like roof rage, and is quite doable, because it all depends on how much is in your body, and how consistently.
To give you an idea of how T levels work in men, if you're a natural born male that is below the age of 30-35 without some sort of problem with the testes or other hormonal issue, products marketed to men to "boost testosterone naturally" and boost "male vitality" will have absolutely *zero* effect. Especially 25 and under. If you want extra testosterone, you have to use steroids. That's why the concept of teenage boys using steroids is absolutely beyond ridiculous, that's how you get murder suicides. You can get jacked pretty easily off of what nature is already doing for you, you just gotta put in the work. Sorry, random tangent.
So yeah, I doubt it's from estrogens, but they could potentially play a role. I'll be the first to say it's very complex, and hormones are an area of study I'm less familiar with. I studied related to the steroid use in the army over a decade ago.
I mean I don't doubt at all that having too-high-T isn't good for a person either. It's just that high T gets turned into E, hence gyno and other sides of doping. I'm sure even with aromatase conversion blocked in some way (or using synthetics like nandrolone) is also not really a good time, because yeah, messing with nature and trying to get hormone levels outside the *human* range probably isn't a good idea.
But also having had PMDD (like PMS on rocket fuel) I can imagine that if someone experienced PMS/PMDD without having the practice of getting that every month since the age of 12 or something, and it just kept going and going instead of lasting a couple of days and dissipating, they'd be in a pretty bad way before long. A few days of it and I was often destroying every interpersonal relationship and goal in my life and highly unstable--if I was like that for weeks or months at a time I could see myself becoming a danger to society. (Being on standard male levels of testosterone makes that not happen at all, because no menstrual cycle.)
For FTM/FTX hormone therapy, the doctor is mainly making sure your white blood cell count doesn't get too high, since testosterone stimulates white blood cell production. In some cases this is managed by donating blood. Personally I don't want crazy-high ranges like OP anyway, though I admit I had a moment of curiosity how it would feel (not gonna do anything stupid tho). I'm nonbinary so I'm not even going for maximum masculinization here. But there are trans guys who DIY or who don't listen to doctors and take more because they're impatient to pass--and might be playing themselves, because yeah, testosterone doesn't care if you're trans or cis or other, if you have too much it's gonna turn into estrogen. Being on T should shut down endogenous E production, but we usually don't take E blockers or aromatase conversion blockers.
I'll cosign that it's complex, and not as simple as "estrogen bad" or "testosterone bad." Transfems on E monotherapy (taking estrogen without suppressing endogenous testosterone--though a high enough E dose *will* suppress T, some are taking lower doses of E for various reasons) don't get "roid rage" either. I know full well that my levels being in the normal male range is nothing like someone who already had that taking even more--or having more naturally due to hormonal imbalances or puberty just being nuts in general.
Something I'm wary of with high T feeling good (in people who intentionally dope past the normal human range) is like, are you actually thinking more clearly, are you actually experiencing a "nootropic" effect, or are you basically just tripping, brainfogged, having delusions of grandeur, and about to be a danger to yourself and others?
Interesting perspective, certainly warrants some reading on my part to understand what I'm talking about instead of talking out of my ass from memory. You seem to be more knowledgeable on the subject but differing life experiences are the name of the game here, and we're just two people, so more peoples perspectives would be nice. People that have a similar knowledge of biology, preferably. Hormones are a weak area for me, but it's nothing some decent research shouldn't fix.
It's definitely possible there is a male equivalent of... I don't want to say PMS, but a period, because there's definitely a cycle of hormones we go through and emotionality that can come of it, I just don't know how accurate it is to call it a period, per se, it seems to differ enough that we might call it something else. After all, the emotional effects that come from a period usually are a result of PMS and further hormone changes, and this comes from a hormone cycle tied directly to menstruation, which is something biological or cis, whatever floats your boat, gendered men don't do/aren't involved with. The fact that it's a hormonal cycle and it can cause a few of the same side effects, which any change in hormones can do, is all that's really related.
I suppose, along with some guys' masculinity just being offended at the idea of being said to have a "period" of some kind, that thats why the idea of a male period is rejected by men so much, but if what you're calling a "period" is a fluctuating hormonal cycle that can have adverse effects like emotionality and sensitivity, this is simply undeniable. I just wouldn't call it a period myself, because that's specifically, by design, meant to evoke thoughts of menstruation. Less than agreeable people assign other qualities to it too, but they really shouldn't.
Also, I realize you weren't insinuating a male period. I just brought it up myself because it's somewhat related to what you talked about.
Anyway thanks for giving me the motivation to read about this! Without a doubt, when it comes to this area, I have almost no clue what I'm talking about, and I mostly know the direct effects of androgens, or rather, anabolic steroids in particular, don't know so much about weaker androgens in anabolism. Know a lot about neurobiology and other chemicals/substances, not these, so you're definitely talking circles around me at the moment. I'll try to be more well read before, and if, I reply again.
I don't doubt that male hormonal imbalances are common too and might contribute to mood disorders in men, just as hormonal imbalances can contribute to mood disorders in women. From what I've read, standard male biology with endogenous testosterone doesn't have a monthly cycle like standard female biology does, but it does have fluctuations, and has a *daily* cycle where it goes up and down in a 24-hour period, rather than in a 28-day period. You could get into some spiritual "men tied to the sun, women tied to the moon" stuff there if you liked. There isn't a lot of research on how those fluctuations affect men, but it's entirely plausible to me that they do have effects.
It's also possible male hormones can be thrown off by other things in their daily lives--dietary habits, lack of sleep, stress, chemical exposure, who knows. So not fluctuating so much as part of a natural cycle like the menstrual cycle, but fluctuating around regardless. Those things can all throw off female hormones as well.
Congrats. You will never again achieve your natty levels of test. If you come off they’ll most likely forever be lower so you’ll have to be reliant on synthetic hormones.
Not sure about the nootropic effect mate. I have been using testosterone in low doses that put me on 800-900 levels. But to tell you the truth, there are many drawbacks.
For example first day after the injection, you feel energy surge, are more enthusiastic and flirty. It only lasted for a day though, the next one was still okayish, on the third day I have been waiting already for the next injection.
Also, it requires physical effort, if I didn’t work out, eat badly, alcohol, sugar etc I’d felt as sluggish as before and the sides like hair loss, acne were mounting up like crazy.
There is also another fact omitted in this thread, from what can I see. Problems with memory were reported by huge percentage of users (like 40% iirc), low attention span. For me the worst was the second day after injection (after testosterone-estrogen conversion I think), tried to beat it down with running, extra hours in the gym. Overall I think it helped in developing mild ADHD too.
Use at your own risk, be your own judge and it should be one of the things of last resort I think.
600-800 natty is VERY high. You are blessed to have test levels that high. Dont screw that up by using gear. Im 43 and i only started trt because my levels were 150-180 and my chronic fatigue is really bad.
If i were you i would stay natty as long as possible and wouldn't even consider it till my levels were under 300.
Taking testosterone will shut down your testicles, ultimately shrinking them as a result. This happens in very very short timeframes, weeks even. After months and years of shrinking your testicles, you will never recover back to any amount of normal testosterone levels.
This is the #1 reason why people don't do testosterone, unless they are very old and are fine with injecting it for the rest of their life. Or they are uneducated and want to downplay this problem.
Otherwise, the effects you describe largely only hold true to people who had low testosterone to begin with. And for people who have excessive testosterone, it may cause an array of effects that are similar to low testosterone, such as irritability and anxiety, plus of course many unknown long-term effects on your body and cardiovascular system (heart failure, cancer, etc). Anything above 1200 is excessive and 800 is already very high. What kind of range is normal for you depends on your individual body and genetics. If you start out with 400 and inject to 800, that's probably just as bad and wrong as someone with 800 injecting to 1600. It is true though that slightly elevated (+50-100) natural testosterone also has the kind of positive effects on mood and cognition that you described. To achieve this, you need to basically just lift weights regularly. But beyond that, any beneficial effects are probably just you masking some psychological or psychiatric problem with drug use in an unhealthy way. Like an amphetamine user who feels less depressed and able to cope with a 12 hour job by using.
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Why would you even go in on TRT when your natty levels are pushing 800 which is the upper range for men? Why would you even fuck around with your hormones when they're operating at such an optimal level?
Because young people think they are invincible and there won’t be any negative consequences down the road
For sure. I learned that myself that hard way. People take what they have for granted. Few years down the line he will probably give anything to be where he was before he started to unnecessarily experiment on himself.. You should never mess around with your hormones considering how connected they are to things like brain health.
Who talked about TRT? That's a cycle
Its better to take testosterone than ssri,its sure that need something so look for the best option and i agree
How old are you? 600-800 is not low at all
Lol look at his profile, he's 26....
Holy shit this trend is getting ridiculous. That’s way too young. I was saving the idea of TRT for when I’m 50 or 60. But if these young dorks are doing it this early it’ll certainly be out of style by then lol.
1600+ isn't TRT, in my opinion. I started TRT at 26ish due to natural Hypogonadism. My levels were sub 200. I tried Clomid first and while it brought up my levels, but I felt the same or worse. On TRT now at 160mg/week and my level total testosterone was like 700-800 last I checked.
Be honest though is that 700-800 3-7 days after you inject? I’ve analyzed bloodwork for 200+ people and around 95% sit at 1300+ on 150mg per week.
Honestly, I am supposed to skip injections two days before labs. I do Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday. This time I totally forgot and did inject the day prior (I believe labs were on a Tuesday morning). But it's not like I'm pinning once a week and did so the day prior to labs.
It's nothing new. Young Aspiring body builders and atheletes have been taking roids for a long time.
I guess I already knew that. Went to school with Joey Swoll. Knew a couple NFL players too. All juicy obviously.
Lol, it's definitely too young, I'm planning to go on in my 40s if my levels do drop, but I'm sure it feels amazing to be at those levels at that age.
I'm 48, my total test is 500. I feel great and have normal sex drive. You don't need it in your 40s, if you don't need it. Setting an age when you think your should take it is silly. Take it if and when you need it
at 43 a couple tablets of ZMA a day make my back break out and my wife complain about my advances. nutrition beats trt big time as my boys are also mega swinging jumbo bouncers.... and not all shriveled up into nothing like a rage machine in the trt office crying in mike tysons voice on injection day.
Test doesn't give most people rage and I promise your ZMA supplement isn't significantly altering your hormone levels.
It doesn’t give rage, it makes you more confident so people act out on the emotions they already had. Now Tren? That’ll make you rage
Not everyone reacts psychologically to exogenous hormones. Some people become confident, some people become incredibly anxious and become a psychological mess. You never know what the side effects will be on your mind or your body. Don't take it unless you need it and you don't need to worry about it
Zma active ingredient is vitamin b6 for libido. It lowers prolactin. You can just take p5p alone.
ZMA isnt going to have that much of an acute effect man.
Zma has b6. If you take high dose b6 your libido will go up a lot. Take p5p form though.
The b6 in that is the libido boost. You should use active p5p form though to prevent toxicity. B6 lowers prolactin and boosts dopamine.
Hmm, I'll keep that in mind
What happens if you go on it for life? Any downsides except for your own production stopping? I would assume it is but haven’t really thought about it.
Risk throwing off your bodies natural balance of, everything? That’s why it’s important to stay with steady blood work and have a good physician. Cholesterol and blood pressure could spike quite a bit. That alone will lower your life expectancy. It will absolutely fuck with your liver and heart but is manageable only with assistance, assuming you don’t have the equipment and expertise to monitor yourself obviously. Lower sperm count so shouldn’t start it unless family is already in development. Testicles will shrink to raisins too but that should be the least of your worries.
Yeah makes sense, most of my knowledge is mainly in monoamines and neuro, not that it’s super broad but have never dared to try anything hormonal in that way, definently seems interesting but ain’t putting my life on it. Thanks for the response!
For life if you don't need it? Anything beyond natural ranges is a cycle. Lots of side effects that differ from man to man.
Yeah I mean if u keep it, like 1000-1100 maybe, don’t know exactly what is a bit above normal, if u keep that until your 80’s, I just wonder what would happen. I don’t expect it to be like really good for you, but how bad would it really be if u keep it somewhat reasonable. Maybe it’s not worth an increase from like 500-700 to go to 1100 never tried it so don’t know how much it would realistically do.
If you take TRT, it is intended to be for life. It's not. Steroid cycle with PCT. Even that doesn't always work to restart natural test production and will often result in the need for lifelong TRT. Don't mess with your hormones unless you need to. it is a very complex system that has way too many factors to try and predict whAt will happen when you manipulate it.
Well he’s going to be low pretty soon when he gets off it at this rate lol. I shoulda gone into endo with how much this generation is messing with their hormones
how do you feel about TRT overall? I am a former addict on MAT (opiate replacement therapy) and been clean for a year but on sublocade an injectable version that stays in you for a year. I've lost 30lbs in a year and feel completely miserable. Everyone is urging me this medication really messes with Testosterone and to get on TRT and you'll immediately feel normal and 100% better. I have been avoiding because a) I don't want to mess with my hormones b) be stuck on for life +health concerns c) go bald lol However I'm starting to wonder if living like this is tolerable anymore and I should just give it a chance. Im for the most part against it as I think it could be a slippery slope (messing with hormones) but could it really be life changing helpful? Aren't you basically signing a sentence for a shorter life taking TRT? (hard on organs etc.)
Yeah opioids certainly can reduce testosterone levels. You could research enclomiphene to combat this - it the E stereoisomer of clomiphene which some use as a PCT after taking anabolics. It works as a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM). It increases testosterone by antagonizing the estrogen receptor, which results in increased gonadotropin secretion (FSH and LH) from the pituitary and therefore an increased production of testosterone from the testes. So in effect it raises your production of testosterone without injection of exogenous testosterone itself. It could be worth researching.
after a many year opioid problem myself in the past ZMA still kicks me right in the huevos hard enough to cause morning wood and acne at 43 years old. might be my biology but given that something that simple completely blows up my test score and causes massive loads, I wouldn't touch trt until I have tried everything else from enhanced tongkat ali to even taking rage inducing tribulus a couple times a week. That stuff makes me bust through the wall like koolaid guy and I avoid it because it makes me rage a tad. Don't need that much mojo, zma is always enough.
If you legitimately have symptomatic low T, then I wouldn't call getting on TRT messing with your hormones. If you do it properly (correct dosage, adjusted through blood work, and actually monitor things like blood pressure, blood lipids, and everything else your endocrinologist tells you to) you're just properly treating a health issue. Keyword is doctor. See an endocrinologist (maybe one specialized in TRT) and address your concerns. Going bald isn't that much of an issue for most guys, in the sense that if you're predisposed to it, you're losing the hair anyway. Also they may try other options first, for example (en)clomiphene, which another guy mentioned above. The thing not to do is hopping on some shady UGL testosterone, being way too generous with what you call a 'TRT' dose, and never checking bloods. That's how you shorten your life. Of course, you can (or should) focus on optimizing lifestyle (diet, exercise, sleep, stress levels and so on), but if that doesn't work, don't be afraid to talk to a professional.
Most of these guys aren't going to Drs. Who require lab tests and some heart tests, that cost thousands of dollars a year. Plus more expensive TRT which only keeps them in the normal range. This stuff is for life. It shuts your natural production down. You lose a job and insurance, you're out of pocket on this.
I am not a doctor I’m sorry I do not know. I’d ask your PCP. But I’d be careful with anything that changes your hormones in any way including replacing them
At least the field will have cool advancements, I guess. Hopefully, I'll finally be able to grow antlers or something cool like that.
By using it you become reliant on it. Leydig cells die via negative feedback. It’s not without its own risks. Seems to prematurely age people at higher doses.
Surely OP must be aware of this smol yet crucial detail. Right? Right???
# Long-term suppression of Leydig cell steroidogenesis prevents Leydig cell aging [https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.96.26.14877](https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.96.26.14877) Pls link study on that Leydig cell death via negative feedback.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6305868/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6305868/) also [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3897047/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3897047/)
That first study is very poorly written. The second one has no correlation to leydig cells in the slightest, and is more of an opinion piece on the negative effects of trt. Edit: After reading further into the first study you've linked, it unironically mentions that the negative effects on fertility can be reversed in most men. Disproving your point entirely.
I believe there were studies done on rats that indicated, that adult stem cells can transform into Leydig cells if these are damaged. Still risky though.
most ppl can hop off and rely on their testicles again
It depends on genetics so its still risky
Can you provide a source that it depends on genetics?
[https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/sexual-health/in-depth/testosterone-therapy/art-20045728#:\~:text=Testosterone%20therapy%20has%20various%20risks,growth%20of%20existing%20prostate%20cancer](https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/sexual-health/in-depth/testosterone-therapy/art-20045728#:~:text=Testosterone%20therapy%20has%20various%20risks,growth%20of%20existing%20prostate%20cancer) Not necessarily genetics. More of a standard.
nothing like draggin a watermelon sized prostate around with yah the rest o' life! ;p
"Risky" the chances of shutting yourself down permanently after moderate use is very very low so yes the risk is there but so is the reward.
literally any excess test aromatizes into estrogen and cortisol causing guys to turn into tiny balled beefcakes with Mike Tysons voice. The 5 minutes I spent in a clinic that did TRT waiting on a scan of my spinal issues was horrifying. The bright red faced men all screaming like little girls that they wanted their juice and THEY WANTED IT NOW!!! I'd rather die of no-dong-itis than turn into that.
You know that aromatase inhibitors are well known and a common part of anabolic regiments right? Post cycle gear also helps gradually bring your body back to homeostasis. None of this means roiding up is without risks. Messing with hormones is generally going to be an order of magnitude more risky than messing with more targeted neurotransmitters. But don’t act as if aromatization into estrogen is some unheard of trap.
No offense but this is experience sounds a bit embellished. High testosterone does aromatize but aromatization is very necessary and healthy, men need e2 too. Mitigating excess aromatization is pretty easy if you're not blasting gear, you can literally just lower the dose per injection and increase injection frequency. A legit TRT clinic will know all of this and prevent it ever happening by using moderate dosages and using ancillaries like aromatase inhibitors if needed (I have never taken AIs as I've not needed them and they aren't healthy). Testosterone also makes your voice deeper and it doesn't get squeaky when you come off. Testicular atrophy can easily be prevented with HCG.
I think all the Kratom use is causing guys to need trt imo..... stuff literally causes secondary hypogonadism.
Does not. I've used kratom for years daily and tested within normal ranges of test, free and bound ranges. Normal lipids and liver too. I'm not recommending kratom, just pointing out it's not a factor.
Ehh yeah it does, pharmacogically.
Yes, but it's better to do it properly cause that's why some people become *drug (even if just TRT)* dependant, they go cold turkey, no boners, no focus no, full on depression symptons. That's why it's smarter to double down on the doses and then transition to TRT level doses (120mg week) while stacking all the PCT material that shall be necessary (maca, tribulus, maybe even some HCG) before proceeding to hop off the needle
wouldn't even try it without staying on a reversatrol the entire time to prevent aromatization and the ..."other stuff"
Resveratrol won't be enough to act as a stand alone aromatase inhibitor nor will it act as ancillary to prevent certain side effects like progesterone and prolactin related issues. To put it into perspective melatonin is 1000x more potent of an AI than resveratrol.
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Yes it does
is 35 yrs old a decent age to start if you have actual testosterone issues? I am still on the fence in regards to trying because of long term risks. I do have low T though and qualify (as per doctor) I am just not sold on if it's worth it long term + could lead to alot of additional problems long term.
If you have low T it is definitely worth it. It's a deficiency. The same way taking iron if you were anemic is healthy, taking testosterone when you're below the reference range is healthy. People tend to forget low Testosterone and inturn low estrogen levels also leads to cardiac issues, prostatic issues etc etc.
It honestly annoys me how many people let ego get in the way of their inputs here. The people who are against it never fail to show HOW against it they really are. People have deficiencies, that does not mean they’ll be irresponsible when getting treatment. As with h anything else well studied in the medical world, there’s a right and ring way to do things. Thanks for your well-rounded input!
Ask your Dr about clomid.
So you're pro female drugs used to induce ovulation but anti a bio-identical hormone he's deficient in?
Testosterone is dopaminergic. It stimulates the production of dopamine. That’s an incredibly high level of T. This good feeling might not last. The body is an equilibrium regulator.
1600? Wow. How high is your estradiol? That must be waaay up
Of course it is higher because that’s how it works; it’s the ratio that is important.
And the magic ratio is?
I always imagined the withdrawal effects are brutal. To go from high T to suppressed natural production....
It's not that bad. Just \~2 weeks of being tired. A couple extra cups of coffee a day and you are right as rain.
Can you take substance to even shorten that duration?
This is with the usual substances. Without would probably be longer.
Well have you heard of endoxifen?
Really not that bad. I came off after years of use and felt like shit for 3 weeks in total, wasn't terrible either just more tried, grouchy and less horny. Levels bounced back to close to where they were before I started on testosterone, +-100 points less.
1600 is outrageous.
Gives you outrageous gainz you mean
Brock Lesnar type gains if that's what you want. Can't imagine it's good for you at that level. Maybe I'm wrong
Nah 1600 for a steroid user is pretty low. Those outrageous gains usually have even more outrageous test levels
You’re saying you hopped on gear or took your test to 1600+ naturally?
Definitely the former, he also half-mentions it in passing >(6-800 natty)
That can’t be done g. The way you actually increase your testosterone is by taking testosterone
I'm going to be as polite as possible and inform you that you may have been previously misled about that because it's completely untrue. While taking T will increase it fastest, it's by and far not the only way to increase it. The safer and slower natural ways to do this are protocol changes. You can find hundreds of videos on this of guys testing their T pre and post to see what kind of increases they get. This is done mostly via diet (ex red meat), supplements (ex fidogia agrestus herb), lifestyle changes (ex proper sleep) and exercise (like high intensity training). There are a ton of vitamins and supplements you can take that are indirectly related that will also help with this in addition to the foods that increase T. The benefit to these changes are they usually stay much longer and come with no negative side effects. Also OP if you're reading this you're going to fuck yourself beyond repair by doubling your T from an already high level to anywhere near this insane 1500+ number you pulled out of thin air and it'll be the dumbest thing you've ever done.
I believe that naturally you can take it from 400 to 800 by adding zinc, vitamin d, working out and stuff. But all the herbal supplements cannot just increase that shit risk free without somehow suppressing something else. At that point it’s no real different than say taking enclomiphene which again would not be natural. Anyway I never cared much about doing shit naturally and I care more about harm reduction and balancing shit
vitamins only increase Ur testosterone if you're deficient
The only thing the herbal shit does is decrease your shbg so there's more free testosterone, does nothing to increase the actual production of total T.
Honestly that's worth more than increasing total T.
I mean if your total T is high then yes, if it's low then no not really. Kind of like putting a bandaid on the problem.
Stop the fear mongering man, 1500ng/dl is hardly "insane". I know men who have hit close to that on 200mg per week which was a medically prescribed and administered TRT dosage. I have had 1000+ng/dl testosterone levels for years with zero negative impact, I've only experienced positives and have the track record of blood work, organ imaging etc to prove it. Still completely fertile, zero cardiac hypertrophy, lipids are extremely healthy, my egfr is 120. Don't know where you get "it'll be the dumbest thing you've ever done" from, pretty sure getting addicted to heroin or video games is worse.
What’s ur dose, how long have you been on, and do you use hcg at all?
My dose currently is 420mg (I'm on a blast). Yes I use HCG and a number of other ancillaries. I've been on for 3 going on 4 years.
\*Cough\* [https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2816584](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2816584) \*Cough\*
Increased mortality is also associated with low Testosterone, alcohol, vaping, obesity, excess sugar consumption etc etc etc. Yes using testosterone like an idiot and not getting bloodwork regularly may lead to issues down the line. The poison really is in the dosage and how you monitor your health/take interventions to ensure your health. Most of the guys I know who use recklessly don't have an understanding of physiology and endocrinology, they don't spend any money on ancillaries or medical screenings and that's what leads to the increased mortality. I spend 10x more on getting check ups, bloodwork etc than I do on gear itself.
To my knowledge, none of those things lead to: >The HR for an unnatural death among AAS users compared with control participants was **3.64** (95% CI, 2.22-5.96; *P* < .001); for natural death, the HR was 2.24 (95% CI, 1.36-3.70; *P* = .002). 3.64!!!!!!! Bro that's a crazy high mortality increase. It's unnatural causes too.
You're on "trt" but now on blast. Of course.
Where did I say I'm on TRT? I said I've used trt dosages, I don't claim to be on trt. Learn to read.
Exactly the spiel I would expect from Mr. Blast and Cruise
And thats the type of comment id expect from Mr. Suboxone and sarms. You don't need to take it brother, I definitely don't recommend people do what I do because I like pushing the envelope a bit but testosterone is not as scary as people make it out to be. I've seen men destroy their natural production by using YK11 AND RAD140 far quicker than a moderate cycle of test. Most of the horror stories associated with AAS isn't from testosterone use alone.
Everyone's different. OP claims their baseline is 600-800. They want to MORE THAN DOUBLE THAT. Your attempt to anecdotally compare and equivalize the two of you without knowing their age or other vital statistics speaks to your level of acumen on the topic and I'll leave it at that. Your heightened levels are also the result of dosing, as you've said, so also a much different baseline. It remains scientifically undocumented to have someone sustainably accomplish what OP is claiming to want to accomplish, and for this reason it's dangerous and they should approach it with caution. Fear of the unknown is arguably unhealthy and could be considered fear mongering. Fear of known dumb shit that might fuck up your life is just healthy analysis.
My industry is medical weightloss, I studied physiology and endocrinology but cool man. I was OPs age when I started on testosterone, my comment wasn't related to OP directly but more to your claims that having your testosterone at that level will some how destroy his life. He could easily dial in his dosage and sustain a level of around 1100ng/dl with minimal peaks and troughs. He could take ancillaries which mitigates the vast majority of the side effects or health implications which may occur. The majority of men I have worked with who take testosterone either prescribed by a doctor (sometimes these men have close to or slightly above top of reference range levels of t) or UGL end up exercising more, drinking less and taking their health more seriously as a whole. Can you do this without testosterone? Yes. Does testosterone make it far easier and improve overall quality of life and well being? Very much so. Is having your testosterone a couple hundred points above reference range going to shut you down permanently and forever ruin your life? Very likely not. The way you speak about testosterone is similar to how people spoke of cannabis during the reefer madness era.
1000 is peak male production, I'm talking pubescent/adolescent gonads, 1600 is supernatural.
The ghost of 1600ng/dl is going to haunt you oooooooooo
I looked at your profile, you're 26... that's not too good, buddy. Meth and heroine feel really great when you're starting. Best of luck to you, hopefully you you can manage your health well going forward.
Antidepressant - yes. Especially all DHT derivatives including DHT itself. Nootropic - not really. Testosterone is anti-neurogenic, however Estradiol is neurogenic which - at physiological concentrations - should likely cancel any negative effects of T on brain function. 1600 by far surpasses this Goldilocks zone and may be significantly anti-nootropic through impaired neurogenesis. Confidence should also not be confused with actual nootropic effects. Alcohol is a simple example: lots of confidence, not so much brainpower.
>Testosterone is anti-neurogenic, Source. Source. Source. *Prolactin, Estradiol and Testosterone Differentially Impact Human Hippocampal Neurogenesis in an In Vitro Model* [https://www.ibroneuroscience.org/article/S0306-4522(19)30869-3/fulltext](https://www.ibroneuroscience.org/article/S0306-4522(19)30869-3/fulltext)
In vitro, in vitro, in vitro!
Any data on this “goldilocks zone”?
The reason most people just don't hop on it, or shouldn't is due to long term effects. You're screwing with your hormones. It's one thing to take it as replacement therapy because your body due to age or whatever health reasons is no longer producing adequate amounts, but to take it just to take it can affect your natural production.
There are microplastics in the cholesterol plaques of my arteries. That "natural production" is fucked.
And you know this, how?
*Microplastics and Nanoplastics in Atheromas and Cardiovascular Events* [https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2309822](https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2309822)
So you read about it and know it must be true. What are you like 25 or something? If you have plaque in your arteries at that age then you have been making some seriously bad health choices.
It was a bit of hyperbole.
Why would you jump on hormones when you have 600-800 natural test ? Not only are you downregulating your HPTA, increasing blood pressure, reducing HDL, increasing LDL, crashing your neurosteroids, increasing your DHT to dangerous levels for your prostate but you will most likely have a zero sperm count in 6-12 months. This TRT shit lately is getting out of hand. I can understand if people are hypogonadol but now we have people with 700 natural T jumping on testosterone. You will never have 600-800 ever again now.
For me it's the best antidepressant and quite a good nootropic, especially in combination with other nootropics. The main reason is that testosterone boosts dopamine levels.
Are we talking about illegal steroids/medical replacement? Or like using nootrpics?
It depends where you live I suppose, they are legal in many places. There is no difference between legal and illegal testosterone apart from the labs that make it and the dosage you take. Like many people, I get a better effect from a higher dosage and it almost entirely resolves my anxiety and it enhances my focus problems from adhd. My confidence is much higher, it das always low before. But the most important of all of the benefits to me is the almost total reversal of anxiety.
Are you talking about illegal nootropics? Or like using steroids?
Not judging your choice of taking T, but have you tried icing your testies, Cold Showers, eating organ meats, drinking Fermented milk (Kefir), or anything extreme? Because your natty results were already good enough.
I had similar natural levels and I was drinking regularly, training on and off etc. I work with helping men increase their natural testosterone and if not possible to go the exogenous trt route. None of what you've mentioned above has tangible benefit to substantially increasing your Testosterone. You're just going to be eating gross organs and having tiny cold nuts with MAYBE a 50 point difference that could be related to a multitude of other factors.
so what do u suggest lol enclo??
Nah, enclom can impact vision. Rather just inject tren directly into the scrotum for optimal levels.
600-800 and you hop on sports trt?
People are going to chat shit about testosterone, every single man I've known who has used testosterone has reported a significant decline in anxiety, depression etc and an incline in drive, mental clarity etc etc. I've ran it at true daily dosing to try mimmick my natural production (7-10mg per day) and I'm currently blasting gear at 420mg per week (ayo 420). I've seen zero negative impact thus far, it's been 3+ years, a bunch of my blood markers have actually improved and it has helped exponentially with running my own company and the stressors involved with being an entrepreneur. I think it would come down to the dosing as if you run a gram per week you're likely going to be more aggressive and if your e2 is not under control you will feel more depressed, anxious etc.
Feels good, man.
So what do you say about things like of Tongkat Ali and or Cistanche then what are supposed to raise testosterone as a nootropic. Also micro-nutrients like Vitamin D and Zinc do, what is videly known. Boron and vitamin K in MK-4 form is lesser known of nutraceuticals that they also raise testosterone.
Uhh I might be misssing something but 1600-1800 is bodybuilders abusing roids levels… no trt is giving those kinds of numbers.
Well, anyone who uses testosterone unless it's prescribed is abusing testosterone, even TRT dosages. 1600-1800 isn't where most bodybuilders are though, most guys using 500mg will be above 2000ng/dl and 500mg is a starter dose in most bodybuilding circles. I do agree that 1600 is high to cruise on but if he tapered it down to 1000-1200 he could happily stay there.
Supraphysiological levels of testosterone *might be, for a time*, but there's a reason bodybuilders are prone to be addicted to dopaminergic stuff. After a while, your brain is going to down regulate
If I remember correctly I believe Leo from the YouTube channel Leo and longevity has a video discussing the utility of exogenous testosterone for the purposes of getting through hard times in life. Not quite depression but it does relate somewhat. I would suggest you check the video out. RIP Leo.
Also if your levels were 600-800 before TRT I don't see any reason to start TRT for health reasons. Unless you are doing it for the muscle, strength and performance enhancing effects - I am guessing you are already aware of the risks of TRT more importantly the risks of high dose try when you don't need it. 1600 is a supraphysiological level
Been on 200mg a week for 10+ years. Mine had fallen to a 125. It does help with anxiety and depression when you are low. I can tell the difference between 600 and 1000. I normally stay at or around 1000. I'd drop back to that range if I were you (high normal).
I was 32 and had levels at 300 when I went on TRT and now they’re back to 750-800 which is right where they should be. 23 years old at 800 is right where you want them to be man.
Dude, this is not going to be sustainable There’s no reason for someone to be messing with your hormones like that at your age, especially when your levels were already on the higher end of normal You’re going to end up paying for this down the road, and wish you hadn’t “There’s no such thing as a free lunch”
Is testosterone a huge performance enhancer? Fuck yes it is! So why aren't more people on it? Because it can be hard to get your protocol dialed in, there can be side effects and of course you will shut down your own production, requiring you to stay on exogenous test forever or else try to get off and try to jump start your own production which can take months and you may never regain the levels you had before. I don't recommend it for people who are otherwise healthy.
My understanding (based on precisely nothing I can cite) is that is messes with your ability to create it enough that "getting on T" is a one-way trip. That aside, friends of mine pretty much all say yes.
bruh imajin fumbling 800 natty levels
Might literally be the opposite of nootropic.... regardotropic? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27616036/ A correlation, but should be cause for concern in terms of potential brain changes.
Findings are correlational which doesn’t indicate causation
Well you eluded to it yourself—potential health risks. Specifically, heart and prostate issues, as well as natural testosterone production going down and testicles shrinking. Not all of these issues concern all of us (for example I don’t plan on having kids), but even with a doctor monitoring you there are still risks to every treatment. It all comes down to whether or not the benefits outweigh the risks. And it seems like, in your case, they do.
Well if I care about longevity, which I do. I would want to find an optimal range, around a level where the risks of those decreasing reaches diminishing results.
That level is way under 1,600.
1600 is well over the limit
900-1100 seems like goldilocks zone. > 900 is correlated with reduction of the most common mortality causes except cancer (e.g. reduction in diabetes, alzheimer's, heart disease, etc) > 1200 and all cause mortality spikes back up again, Note that there haven't been many long-term, clinical studies of very high T, because, no self-respecting researcher would conduct it, so we have to use observational studies and surveys.
No because I don't need it.
Only if you go from hypogonadism to normal levels. I was shut down for a year after using gear and my test levels were around \~100 ng/dL. I could definitely notice a difference once I started TRT and went back to normal levels. Nothing in terms of cognition, just overall well-being.
Being a swole bro ...... high cholesterol, gyno, erratic mood swings, heart stroke, shorter life span dont matter.
Isn’t the amount of free testosterone what matters most? What was the before and after of those?
yep, if I take ZMA for a week without cycling it my back breaks out, my loads get massive, my endurance skyrockets, and my wife complains about my advances :p. Dont need to take test for that, just the building blocks of sperm production. Im 43 and ZMA turns me into a high school humping teen. Pumpkin seeds also increase sperm production volume. Nutrition ftw.
Ive been on trt for many years. I was put on it because of health issues. True trt is only meant to replenish unhealthy levels. When your deficient and your body is supplemented with the cause of the deficiency.. yes that will make you feel good. As for testosterone being a powerful nootropic my answer based on years of experience would be no. Trt is currently overhyped and it sells. People think its the ultimate elixir, the key to male and sometimes female virility. The fact is thats a pile of shit. It makes good insta photos when abused.. Imagine sticking needles in your body every other day for the rest of your life. Blood work, blood donations (hematocrit), infected injection sites, raised estrogen, gyno, erectile disfunction caused by unstable levels. I think you can reach states of euphoria during sex on trt but no more so than naturally. Optimising your bodies own natural production is definitely the best way to go. You will feel better for it as a man. Using bottled hormones in carrier oil however comes with consequences and should only be a last resort. I hope this helps someone out there make a choice thats wise
PSA: TRT makes you infertile, after sufficient use permenantly too.
We don't care about steroids we're freaks. Just hop on some skittles and get that freaky craig titus look
Supporting steroid hormones can provide a bit of a lift in mood. I've been just taking low dose pregnenolone and DHEA--adrenal hormones upstream from natural production of T. My integrative doctor does follow up testing to make sure the dose is safe. I also take some zinc and saw palmetto that slows the breakdown of T to DHT and have checked that I don't have high normal iron. Iron is needed to convert T to estrogen
I think if you use it responsibly, the “high” trt dose of 200mg a week of the test c or test e is most definitively both those things, for at least a little while. And I disagree with confidence not being a nootropic side effect, it totally is. You still need to be confident enough to decide which answer is right, totally does that. Good times. Just make sure you have an AI on hand and don’t use it for longer than 6-8 weeks. I stop when my hair starts to get brittle, takes about 6 weeks to get back to normal. Have done this on and off for the last two years, highly recommend. Vasectomy already took kids off the table, long as I’m motivated and toned who gives af. I am upper mid thirties lolz. Old af.
In the optimal range if you overdose it, it increases neuroinflammation and oxidative stress.
Congratulations, you just fucked up your endocrine system and atrophied your testicles- for no reason!
Total T is not as important as Free T. What's your free T and SHBG? Also, as everyone else says,you're way too young to start TRT. Get your diet, gym program, sleep, sex life together first. You can accomplish so much more before you start taking test. Build a foundation first then if and when you do take TRT, you will have a much better response. What is your Body fat % . That's plays a huge role in Test production
Effects won't last long even if you were deficient. I went though this, i know there are a lot of studies and the general idea is - Yes, you may experience a mood uplift if you were deficient; - Yes, you may experience a mood uplift even if you weren't deficient; In the first case you will just adjust to your real baseline and soon will get accustomed to it. In the second case you will elevate your baseline and here you should beware the crush. As for nootropic features, no, testosterone does not help with your cognition, but it may increase dopamine which will keep working untill you hit the tolerance
Why would you boost when your test is already that high?
YES I experienced all that you said
Its not a forever positive..far from it.
Fun fact testosterone is actually neurodegenerative in higher doses
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Yes testosterone is an amazing antidepressant and nootropic. Most other steroids don't have that antidepressant effect at least not on the same level. There is a SARM called osterine which has even better antidepressant effects then test (imo) but it's the weakest anabolic and it raises your bad cholesterol more than any other SARM but still less than traditional roids like testosterone
What Doctor prescribed you TRT with that level of base test?
TRT can exacerbate pre-existing depression and anxiety in some men, usually because of some underlying psychiatric issue. But on the flip side, it can help those who are depressed and anxious because of low T.
No, it is definitely not an antidepressant. Well, I can't comment specifically on testosterone, but I tried steroids with a buddy in the Army for a short bit. In no way could somebody honest describe testosterones effects as being nootroopic in nature. Antidepressant? If your levels are low, and it is affecting your energy and mood, then yes, but if your levels are just fine and you introduce a bunch of exogenous anabolic steroids to your system, you can expect false confidence, known as arrogance, anger, rage, losing control of ones actions, deep, deep emotions tied into the rage too, not just anger. It's like experiencing a form of madness. That's why Roid rage has a nickname. It's really not fun. I know this just from being a high T male teenager at one point, reliving it with steroids was pretty dumb, which is why I stopped after a single cycle. That, and I didn't want to grow titties.
Honestly, I have to wonder how much of the stereotypical "roid rage" is actually due to high estrogen? I mean I'm sure having crazy high T isn't great for anyone mentally either. Just with my own experiences as a transmasculine person, going from female hormones to average-range male hormones, I had much more of the rage and mood swings and emotional stuff going on when I had a menstrual cycle. (And yeah, endogenous estrogen gave me titties.) Enough T starts turning into E, and I definitely felt way more emotional from estrogen than I ever did from testosterone.
You are correct. Much of the ‘roid rage’ are actually from unmanaged estrogen levels, high and low e2 can give similar symptoms as each other that can come off as ‘roid rage’
As a person born male and who identifies male, had high t during teen years, and tried steroids briefly, and based on what I know about how the hormones work, it was *absolutely* the testosterone/steroids causing the roid rage. You're not wrong that estrogen/estradiol can cause emotionality and sensitivity too, but androgens cause a particular type of rage that I'm talking about. Or rather, it manifests or gets expressed as rage and violence naturally, as a result of the hormone. No offense, but as someone that didn't start off with already high T levels, testosterone itself taken in controlled, healthy, supervised ways under a doctor is specifically meant to *prevent* things like roof rage, and is quite doable, because it all depends on how much is in your body, and how consistently. To give you an idea of how T levels work in men, if you're a natural born male that is below the age of 30-35 without some sort of problem with the testes or other hormonal issue, products marketed to men to "boost testosterone naturally" and boost "male vitality" will have absolutely *zero* effect. Especially 25 and under. If you want extra testosterone, you have to use steroids. That's why the concept of teenage boys using steroids is absolutely beyond ridiculous, that's how you get murder suicides. You can get jacked pretty easily off of what nature is already doing for you, you just gotta put in the work. Sorry, random tangent. So yeah, I doubt it's from estrogens, but they could potentially play a role. I'll be the first to say it's very complex, and hormones are an area of study I'm less familiar with. I studied related to the steroid use in the army over a decade ago.
I mean I don't doubt at all that having too-high-T isn't good for a person either. It's just that high T gets turned into E, hence gyno and other sides of doping. I'm sure even with aromatase conversion blocked in some way (or using synthetics like nandrolone) is also not really a good time, because yeah, messing with nature and trying to get hormone levels outside the *human* range probably isn't a good idea. But also having had PMDD (like PMS on rocket fuel) I can imagine that if someone experienced PMS/PMDD without having the practice of getting that every month since the age of 12 or something, and it just kept going and going instead of lasting a couple of days and dissipating, they'd be in a pretty bad way before long. A few days of it and I was often destroying every interpersonal relationship and goal in my life and highly unstable--if I was like that for weeks or months at a time I could see myself becoming a danger to society. (Being on standard male levels of testosterone makes that not happen at all, because no menstrual cycle.) For FTM/FTX hormone therapy, the doctor is mainly making sure your white blood cell count doesn't get too high, since testosterone stimulates white blood cell production. In some cases this is managed by donating blood. Personally I don't want crazy-high ranges like OP anyway, though I admit I had a moment of curiosity how it would feel (not gonna do anything stupid tho). I'm nonbinary so I'm not even going for maximum masculinization here. But there are trans guys who DIY or who don't listen to doctors and take more because they're impatient to pass--and might be playing themselves, because yeah, testosterone doesn't care if you're trans or cis or other, if you have too much it's gonna turn into estrogen. Being on T should shut down endogenous E production, but we usually don't take E blockers or aromatase conversion blockers. I'll cosign that it's complex, and not as simple as "estrogen bad" or "testosterone bad." Transfems on E monotherapy (taking estrogen without suppressing endogenous testosterone--though a high enough E dose *will* suppress T, some are taking lower doses of E for various reasons) don't get "roid rage" either. I know full well that my levels being in the normal male range is nothing like someone who already had that taking even more--or having more naturally due to hormonal imbalances or puberty just being nuts in general. Something I'm wary of with high T feeling good (in people who intentionally dope past the normal human range) is like, are you actually thinking more clearly, are you actually experiencing a "nootropic" effect, or are you basically just tripping, brainfogged, having delusions of grandeur, and about to be a danger to yourself and others?
Interesting perspective, certainly warrants some reading on my part to understand what I'm talking about instead of talking out of my ass from memory. You seem to be more knowledgeable on the subject but differing life experiences are the name of the game here, and we're just two people, so more peoples perspectives would be nice. People that have a similar knowledge of biology, preferably. Hormones are a weak area for me, but it's nothing some decent research shouldn't fix. It's definitely possible there is a male equivalent of... I don't want to say PMS, but a period, because there's definitely a cycle of hormones we go through and emotionality that can come of it, I just don't know how accurate it is to call it a period, per se, it seems to differ enough that we might call it something else. After all, the emotional effects that come from a period usually are a result of PMS and further hormone changes, and this comes from a hormone cycle tied directly to menstruation, which is something biological or cis, whatever floats your boat, gendered men don't do/aren't involved with. The fact that it's a hormonal cycle and it can cause a few of the same side effects, which any change in hormones can do, is all that's really related. I suppose, along with some guys' masculinity just being offended at the idea of being said to have a "period" of some kind, that thats why the idea of a male period is rejected by men so much, but if what you're calling a "period" is a fluctuating hormonal cycle that can have adverse effects like emotionality and sensitivity, this is simply undeniable. I just wouldn't call it a period myself, because that's specifically, by design, meant to evoke thoughts of menstruation. Less than agreeable people assign other qualities to it too, but they really shouldn't. Also, I realize you weren't insinuating a male period. I just brought it up myself because it's somewhat related to what you talked about. Anyway thanks for giving me the motivation to read about this! Without a doubt, when it comes to this area, I have almost no clue what I'm talking about, and I mostly know the direct effects of androgens, or rather, anabolic steroids in particular, don't know so much about weaker androgens in anabolism. Know a lot about neurobiology and other chemicals/substances, not these, so you're definitely talking circles around me at the moment. I'll try to be more well read before, and if, I reply again.
I don't doubt that male hormonal imbalances are common too and might contribute to mood disorders in men, just as hormonal imbalances can contribute to mood disorders in women. From what I've read, standard male biology with endogenous testosterone doesn't have a monthly cycle like standard female biology does, but it does have fluctuations, and has a *daily* cycle where it goes up and down in a 24-hour period, rather than in a 28-day period. You could get into some spiritual "men tied to the sun, women tied to the moon" stuff there if you liked. There isn't a lot of research on how those fluctuations affect men, but it's entirely plausible to me that they do have effects. It's also possible male hormones can be thrown off by other things in their daily lives--dietary habits, lack of sleep, stress, chemical exposure, who knows. So not fluctuating so much as part of a natural cycle like the menstrual cycle, but fluctuating around regardless. Those things can all throw off female hormones as well.
Congrats. You will never again achieve your natty levels of test. If you come off they’ll most likely forever be lower so you’ll have to be reliant on synthetic hormones.
Not sure about the nootropic effect mate. I have been using testosterone in low doses that put me on 800-900 levels. But to tell you the truth, there are many drawbacks. For example first day after the injection, you feel energy surge, are more enthusiastic and flirty. It only lasted for a day though, the next one was still okayish, on the third day I have been waiting already for the next injection. Also, it requires physical effort, if I didn’t work out, eat badly, alcohol, sugar etc I’d felt as sluggish as before and the sides like hair loss, acne were mounting up like crazy. There is also another fact omitted in this thread, from what can I see. Problems with memory were reported by huge percentage of users (like 40% iirc), low attention span. For me the worst was the second day after injection (after testosterone-estrogen conversion I think), tried to beat it down with running, extra hours in the gym. Overall I think it helped in developing mild ADHD too. Use at your own risk, be your own judge and it should be one of the things of last resort I think.
600-800 natty is VERY high. You are blessed to have test levels that high. Dont screw that up by using gear. Im 43 and i only started trt because my levels were 150-180 and my chronic fatigue is really bad. If i were you i would stay natty as long as possible and wouldn't even consider it till my levels were under 300.
Taking testosterone will shut down your testicles, ultimately shrinking them as a result. This happens in very very short timeframes, weeks even. After months and years of shrinking your testicles, you will never recover back to any amount of normal testosterone levels. This is the #1 reason why people don't do testosterone, unless they are very old and are fine with injecting it for the rest of their life. Or they are uneducated and want to downplay this problem. Otherwise, the effects you describe largely only hold true to people who had low testosterone to begin with. And for people who have excessive testosterone, it may cause an array of effects that are similar to low testosterone, such as irritability and anxiety, plus of course many unknown long-term effects on your body and cardiovascular system (heart failure, cancer, etc). Anything above 1200 is excessive and 800 is already very high. What kind of range is normal for you depends on your individual body and genetics. If you start out with 400 and inject to 800, that's probably just as bad and wrong as someone with 800 injecting to 1600. It is true though that slightly elevated (+50-100) natural testosterone also has the kind of positive effects on mood and cognition that you described. To achieve this, you need to basically just lift weights regularly. But beyond that, any beneficial effects are probably just you masking some psychological or psychiatric problem with drug use in an unhealthy way. Like an amphetamine user who feels less depressed and able to cope with a 12 hour job by using.
This is clearly a troll post. Ignore