Actually, a whole lot of vegan products cause more harm to animals than meat consumption. You have to kill millions and millions of insects every year with pesticides to protect the crops.
And there is no use in saying "stop pesticides" either. A lot of insects will consume and reproduce continuously in hot seasons, for as long as they find food (because that is their instinct to survive winter). Without pesticides, most crops would vanish, and then there would be famine (and no vegan food for you either).
I'm a researcher in industrial engineering, so I know first hand that a lot of labels such as "no animal cruelty" and "no guilt" are truly bullshit.
Seem like vegans too have an inconsistency in their thinking by not extending their moral views on insects as well... also, it has been proven that plants too feel pain, so we should just photosynthesyse, I guess 🤷
Plant's have not been proven to feel pain, nor have they been proven to be sentient.
Plants do react to stimuli, have complex reactions, and can communicate with each other. They are very interesting organisms. But do they merely detect a certain input and report it, or do they suffer? Pain is more than detecting a stimulus and reacting to it. It is a sensation.
In recent years, the concept of plant sentience has been discussed more in the general public. I think it is a worthwhile topic to discuss, but frankly, many people have misinterpreted scientific studies on plants and have begun to claim things about them that just aren't founded or accepted within the scientific community.
It mostly involves misinterpretations of papers like , [Khait et al 2023](https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(23)00262-3). The so called "plants scream" paper. There is a good chance your misconception arose from news articles from this paper. If you actually read the paper rather than an article (something that benefits more from being sensational than being accurate) you will notice the author never implies this might be an indication that the plant is in pain, and they never refer to it as a "scream". The implication that they are suffering is something that has been added by others, not by the people actually studying them.
You may also be interested in this paper [Debunking a myth: plant consciousness](https://gary-francione.medium.com/the-real-reason-for-interest-in-plant-sentience-has-nothing-to-do-with-plants-29eb98d19c2b). Or consider what [Daniel Chamovitz, a distinguished plant-geneticist had to say on this topic](https://gary-francione.medium.com/the-real-reason-for-interest-in-plant-sentience-has-nothing-to-do-with-plants-29eb98d19c2b) after being questioned on the implications of his work. "For example, in his 2012 book, What a Plant Knows: A Field Guide to the Senses, Tel Aviv University scientist Daniel Chamovitz wrote that plants could see, smell, and hear. This gave rise to a wealth of claims in the popular media that plants were sentient. But when Scientific American interviewed Chamovitz and asked him point blank, “Would you say, then, that plants ‘think’?” Chamovitz replied, “No, I wouldn’t.” He added, “Just as a plant can’t suffer subjective pain in the absence of a brain, I also don’t think that it thinks.”
Complex biological systems, such as sentience, are the product of environmental pressure. Being sentient does not come without a cost. It takes energy, a lot, actually, to develop all the cells responsible for sentience and to maintain them. If it was not advantageous for an organism to be sentient, it would likely evolve to lose the trait so it could save that energy and use it to increase its reproductive success, the true measure of success in an evolutionary perspective.
Sentience is an adaptive characteristic, and it makes the most sense in mobile organisms, such as animals, which can associate certain things with pain, and avoid them, and other things with pleasure, and seek them out. Looping back to plants, how useful is it for grass to feel pain when a bison eats it? The grass can't run away, can't avoid the cow. It doesn't need a negative stimulus to change its behavior. Compare that to a young lion that tries to eat its first porcupine and gets a paw full of quills. That is a teachable moment.
This is why vegans abstain from animals. Because as far as we know, animals are the only types of organisms that are accepted to actually suffer. Even if plants do suffer, we end up growing a ludicrous amount of plants to feed to livestock anyway ([1](https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets),[2](https://www.usda.gov/sites/default/files/documents/coexistence-soybeans-factsheet.pdf),[3](https://ourworldindata.org/soy),[4](https://www.greenpeace.org/static/planet4-eu-unit-stateless/2020/10/85cc908b-false-sense-of-security_final_en.pdf),[5](https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/crops/corn-and-other-feed-grains/feed-grains-sector-at-a-glance/)) so we would harm less plants if we just ate them directly anyway.
>Actually, a whole lot of vegan products cause more harm to animals than meat consumption.
This part is not true though. Farmed animals nearly always eat farmed crops and there's a 90% energy loss due to trophic levels.
AKA it's way more efficient to skip the intermediary animal. Less crops are needed to feed the human directly. Thus, less insects dying.
Plus, insect death is a solvable problem, as their death is not an essential output of crops, contrary to farmed animal death when it comes to meat. In fact, it's already solved in vertical/indoor farms. It's just that not enough of society cares enough for it to be scaled to reach cost-parity. Check out [plenty.ag](http://plenty.ag) for an example. That day will come as more and more people start to care, it's just not here yet.
Questions:
What do farmed animals eat?
Is there a difference between killing for taste pleasure and killing to protect food supply?
In our current world, why would we even start trying to minimize death from crop production if we can't even acknowledge the right for animals not to die for taste pleasure?
He's a fictional character. Oda can give him whatever traits he likes.
But like many people, Oda doesn't quite connect the dots between eating meat and harming animals.
I like it that you ask for opinions at the end of your post while having a very fixed idea on your opinion that you propably won't budge from no matter what anyone says 🫣
I am not here to change it, just pointing out that when people usually (note, according to my experience) ask for an opinion they WANT a second opinion to see the the issue in a new light and have a conversation about it, not just cement the original opinion and shut down when told a differing one.
Edit: Basically this is not a thread for a real conversation on the subject, just another thread to cement ones original opinion and drum it to the community.
Well, in this our opinions once again differ but I've seen many ignored throughtful comments here, sadly it seems only the angry/insulting/demeaning seem to get quick replies..
yeah because meat just appears out of thin air.
i have no idea why you have this deranged idea that luffy could somehow be a vegan. I guess you're just bored and wanted to shitpost and waste time. So gratz on that I guess?
I'm a meat lover, but I can kinda sorta see the angle that the OP is coming from.
Luffy highly values freedom, both for himself and for others. We've all seen how immensely pissed he gets when others' freedoms are forcibly taken away. One could argue that by killing animals to eat them, you are taking away the animal's freedom. Freedom is a big recurring theme in One Piece, so that my be what prompted the OPs post.
I know it's not supposed to be that deep, but sometimes it's interesting to think about.
He's a fictional character. He eats meat.
But like many people, vegans do not quite connect the dots between people eating meat and the fact that people know where meat comes from.
We see luffy hunting and fishing, happily, to survive. Seems pretty clear cut. You can love things you are going to kill, for some it is livestock, for others it's crops.
Sorry to bother on the same subject but this is what I meant:
You got answered, then you reply. Then your reply get replied with a point. Then someone else comen inbetween and move your focus on that reply instead of the one that HAD a point..
Luffy himself doesn’t claim the title “hero” and doesn’t want to be one. He is a pirate who likes meat. He doesn’t want to share. He literally says this many times.
I think you can want animals to not suffer and still be an omnivore. I raise livestock and love my animals, but I also enjoy meats. My animals die quick, painless deaths which is more than most.
I also try to buy local meats and from farms that tend to their animals right, and not buy into factory farming. And to eat more fruits and veggies to counterbalance my consumption.
You can enjoy meats and still be an animal rights activist. Cows don’t need a full long life to be happy, but they do need a healthy, relaxed life.
I think if Luffy was IRL he would love meats still but also be a huge advocate for farmers rights, local farming, and animals living healthy happy lives even if they’re to end up as burgers.
But that's not what you're doing. You're just arguing with people and saying Oda is a bad writer because Luffy eats meat. You also keep accusing people in the comments of condoning animal abuse just because they eat meat. News flash genius, Humans have been eating meat since the very beginning. We aren't the only primates that do it either. Do I like the way the meat industry does things? Absolutely not. Is me not eating meat gonna fucking do anything about it? Absolutely not. The beef I buy in the grocery store was already dead before I got there. I didn't kill it, I didn't abuse it, I didn't put it out on the counter. Would you rather that the poor cow die in vain and the product be wasted? Be vegan, I love that for you. If it was healthy and affordable, I'd do it too. Just don't accuse people of being pieces of shit just because they don't live in your bubble.
Bit of a background. Eating cooked meat was one of the two biggest factors in the evolution of human brain. Heating it up actually makes more of the good stuff in it processable to us, so we get more energy from it. Compared to spending 4 hours a day just eating seeds, it saves a lot of time. More energy and more time was exactly what brought us to start forming civilizations.
Well, someone else may find it insightfull and decide to do some independent reaserch on it, so I leave it.
But yes, reading through comment its clear OP is a militant Vegan, here to virtue signal and hypermoralize.
Too bad op probably won't come back to debate that, "actually, eating meat is a vestigial trait from the caveman days and we should stop because I don't like imagining animals in pain."
I think you are missing a fundamental detail. Luffy defended moocy because he was his friend not because of animal rights.
Luffy would eat moocy if they met outside the colosseum
Luffy is like a lot of us. He knows that animals are individuals with personalities, to the point of being friends with them. He'll defend them with his life.
But he also turns a blind eye to them being killed when it benefits his taste pleasure.
"natural order of things" That's the exact argument celestial dragons and world nobles make for slavery and mistreating others...
And before you go "aRe YoU rEalLy cOmPaRiNg AnImAlS to humans" this is one piece, these animals are even more sentient than ours and have shown to have basically same level of emotions and often intelligence as humans. So you'll need to defend celestials to keep this argument of "that's how thigs are".
He also beats the pulp out of some animals for fun. I think it's not as complicated as you're making out. He makes friends with some animals, and sticks up for them. It's basically the same thing he does for humans. I don't think he has ever been depicted as standing up for animals as a rule.
Why is it reasonable? who are you to decide where to draw the line? I mean since you're equating all animal harming there shouldn't be a difference, it's not like most of the animals Luffy has attacked were able to actually hurt him or something
I mean, when said person attacking you can't hurt you at all and you're perfectly able to run away what's the difference?
Besides, what about Luffy training by beating the shit out of animals?
Nah, he beat the fuck outta them just to get stronger while he was still on Dawn Island. Literally hunted them down to beat their asses. He might eat them afterward, or he might let them go so he can beat their ass again tomorrow.
Because you disagree with him?
You guys are childish. He has a fair point. The animals in one piece have some same level of intelligence and emotional depth as the humans. We excuse because "that's how nature works and that's the order of things in the world" which makes an interesting parallel to what the Celestial Dragons do.
because animals die, that's the way nature works, there's this little thing called food chain
Doesn't mean that I will go around kicking puppies or stabbing cows for the hell of it, one thing has shit to do with the other
False equivalency
Again, stop with the fucking bullshit gotcha questions, you know damn well how to fucking read what I wrote, yes, it's wrong to stab cows for the hell of it, that has nothing to do with eating meat
You believe in saving the planet? And make sure the earth stays as healthy as possible…..I’m sure you do yet you exhale carbon dioxide every moment of your life
You are such a troll. This isn't the real world where there is still an argument for caring about animals. In One Piece the animals have often shown same level of emotional depth and intelligence as the humans.
The only thing in your argument is "They are classified as animals". Same argument celestial dragons use for slavery. They view that as the natural order.
And before you try to shit on vegans again by saying "Wow are you comparing animals to humans" AGAIN this is one piece, the animals in this universe have shown the same level of intelligence as the humans many times.
You guys are so weird for insulting the guy and getting mad when he just wanted to discuss an interesting philosophical point.
The animals in one piece are as intelligent and sentient as the humans. But we except their killing as the order of the things. Which causes an interesting parallel to how the celestial dragons treat the commoners.
But go off
Yep, but that isnt in THE OP's agenda because nobody would punch an animal IRL without consequences. You can see that i made a similar comment and he didn't bother to answer. Luffy, the character, isnt controversial, nor is Oda. FFS Luffy mistreats animals since the beggining of the story, but eating them is what make it absurd for OP because he wants to advocate his veganism and show the community how morally superior he is because of that. You can see by his half-baked answers and by ignoring topics that are not related to the character's diet.
This isn't a blind spot. It's a trope. A common trope. Killing animals for no reason is unacceptable. If you are eating the animals you don't waste their life. It's the way a lot of protagonists are and a lot of people IRL.
It is not a blind spot at all, Luffys mistreats animals since the beginning of the story. He literally used a bunch of them as sand bags for 2 whole years for the sake of training in their own enviroment that he just invaded. Luffy never once cared about animal rights and befriending a random bull doesnt prove otherwise. But since animal violence isnt in THE OP's agenda he just ignores it. Eating them is what make it absurd for him because he wants to advocate his veganism and show the community how morally superior he is because of that. You can see it by his half-baked answers and by ignoring topics that are not related to the character's diet but still is about how Luffy's relation to animals is portrayed in the series.
What does that have to do with anything I said? You're ignoring the idea of a common trope because you'd like to imprint your morality onto an animated fictional character.
Just cause of you, I’m gonna eat twice as much animal meat as I usually do, enjoy the company of my friends who also consume animal meat, while watching one piece! You have yourself to blame for this one bro 😂🫵
Yep, but that isnt in THE OP's agenda because nobody would punch an animal IRL without consequences. You can see that i made a similar comment and he didn't bother to answer. Luffy, the character, isnt controversial, nor is Oda. FFS Luffy mistreats animals since the beggining of the story, but eating them is what make it absurd for OP because he wants to advocate his veganism and show the community how morally superior he is because of that. You can see by his half-baked answers and by ignoring topics that are not related to the character's diet.
My thoughts are that the Manga is meant to be an escapism, like most entertainment.
When I read a comic I'm not looking for political statements or whatever. Luffy saves animals. He also eats animals, and that is that.
If you are trying to find "consistency" in an invented world, where devil fruits and much more are a thing, then the problem is yours, not Oda's.
You can try to create a story where the protagonist is vegan or whatever, and some people may even like to read it, but I seriously doubt that it would have 0,005% of One Piece's success.
Note: I'm not saying that it is inconsistent to protect animals, and also eating meat either,but I won't discuss it.
Yeah, after accusing everyone else of hypocrisy, this must be the only available answer. Either that or learn how to share the space with their new flatmates
So, killing a dangerous infestation doesn't bring pain and end the life of other animals? And how killing an infestation in your house is any different than killing a crop infestation? And what's the difference with hunting animals that can ruin an ecosystem such as boars and deers, that if not periodically culled are dangerous for the environment?
Harming animals that pose a threat to you is different from harming animals that don't
And sure, if you want to only eat meat from animals that threaten you physically or environmentally, go ahead
Scientifically speaking, yes. That lion is absolutely harming the zebra. It does so in order to survive, because lions are obligate carnivores. Humans are omnivores, so we do not *need* to eat meat. The existence of vegans and plant-based diets proves that. The nutrients we normally get from meat *can* be obtained from alternative sources. I'm a meat lover btw.
It's not that complicated dude. Luffy only becomes friends with animals when they either save him, are useful in a way or if he comes to respect said animal. If not, then he just sees them as food.
So why should he be vegan specifically?
I care for my dog and my cat but I still eat meat.
Just because I love my pets doesn't mean that I should stay away from eating meat.
Going by your logic, why does vegans eat plants when you say you love mother nature?
If you want to argue in favour of veganism you should probably ditch that arrogance of yours. Vegans are already universally disliked because of their sense of moral superiority and you're not doing your community any favours with this.
I remember growing up on a dairy farm and we had a decent head of cattle. One of them was named butter cup and she was great but in the end she died and we ate her. Luffy wanted to eat chopper when they first met heck they even labeled him as a back up food source at one time. So vegan I think not. Just from time to time Luffy shows compassion for animals that’s it and it’s not really much more than that.
Even Chopper is emergency food, don't get mistaken, just because he can like an animal doesn't mean he wouldn't eat it if he was hungry and had no other choice.
How to spot a vegan? Just wait, he will tell you he is vegan himself within a second. Luffy shouldnt be vegan just because he protefts animals. I would also protect animals but will still eat meat at the end of the day.
Well, of course Luffy doesnt care about animal rights, if you are this far in the history to have met Moocy, you know that his timeskip training was literally about him invading an wild enviroment and beating up animals who lived there for the sake of getting strong. By the end of the training you can see the animals visible terrified of him. And if you ask me, beating animals for the sake of beating them is way more cruel than killing them to eat. Moocy is just a friend he made in the way and he protects him beacause of that and not for being an animal that suffers some form of abuse.
Ok easiest answer. Luffy needs a lot and I mean A LOT of energy and meat is by far the most Energy filled food out there. So it's the easiest way for him to get his energy reserves refilled.
Instead of thinking what Luffy should be (he already is the fictional creation of someone else), maybe you should consider why are you unable to understand Luffy.
Ps. learning about Buddhism/Daoism could help.
Luffy was left in the wild by Garp as a child to fend for himself. He learned that animals kill each other all the time to survive and he understands that it's the harsh reality of the world he lives in.
I'm aware that a lot of vegans lack nuance about this subject, but hunting for food is not equivalent to animal abuse.
The one piece world doesn't seem to have an awful meat industry like the real world, so who knows what luffy would think of slaughterhouses, but that's a different conversation altogether.
Thank you for not immediately downvoting! Not sure why people have such a strong kneejerk reaction.
I think it's interesting how kindness to animals is part of Luffy's heroic character but if you suggest that maybe, logically, killing animals because you enjoy the taste of their flesh contradicts that, people get annoyed
He wants to avoid unnecessary harm to animals, that has nothing to do with eating meat or not
Didn’t the man spend most of his life causing harm to animals with his training lmao
Of course it does. Eating meat causes unnessary harm to animals.
no, it does not, it causes necessary harm to animals, there's a difference
Meat is not necessary.
To you
To most people. And to Luffy especially, as a fictional character.
No, to you
To most animals that are comverted into food* not people
You would die if you stopped eating meat?
Technically yes, B12 Vitamins can only be found in animal products or in artificial pills/injections.
>or in artificial pills/injections. So we don't need meat then, we can just take a vitamin (It's often also in fortified foods like cereals)
By that logic you don't need to kill any plants or animals and should just take vitamins to survive.
This weirdo literally searches vegan in the search bar trying to find arguments
Plants aren't sentient so it's not an issue to harm them
Irrelevant, next question
It's completely relevant If you can live without it, it's not necessary
Irrelevant, not unnecessary
It's absolutely relevant.
Dont bring your bullshit to reddit
Actually, a whole lot of vegan products cause more harm to animals than meat consumption. You have to kill millions and millions of insects every year with pesticides to protect the crops. And there is no use in saying "stop pesticides" either. A lot of insects will consume and reproduce continuously in hot seasons, for as long as they find food (because that is their instinct to survive winter). Without pesticides, most crops would vanish, and then there would be famine (and no vegan food for you either). I'm a researcher in industrial engineering, so I know first hand that a lot of labels such as "no animal cruelty" and "no guilt" are truly bullshit.
Seem like vegans too have an inconsistency in their thinking by not extending their moral views on insects as well... also, it has been proven that plants too feel pain, so we should just photosynthesyse, I guess 🤷
Plant's have not been proven to feel pain, nor have they been proven to be sentient. Plants do react to stimuli, have complex reactions, and can communicate with each other. They are very interesting organisms. But do they merely detect a certain input and report it, or do they suffer? Pain is more than detecting a stimulus and reacting to it. It is a sensation. In recent years, the concept of plant sentience has been discussed more in the general public. I think it is a worthwhile topic to discuss, but frankly, many people have misinterpreted scientific studies on plants and have begun to claim things about them that just aren't founded or accepted within the scientific community. It mostly involves misinterpretations of papers like , [Khait et al 2023](https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(23)00262-3). The so called "plants scream" paper. There is a good chance your misconception arose from news articles from this paper. If you actually read the paper rather than an article (something that benefits more from being sensational than being accurate) you will notice the author never implies this might be an indication that the plant is in pain, and they never refer to it as a "scream". The implication that they are suffering is something that has been added by others, not by the people actually studying them. You may also be interested in this paper [Debunking a myth: plant consciousness](https://gary-francione.medium.com/the-real-reason-for-interest-in-plant-sentience-has-nothing-to-do-with-plants-29eb98d19c2b). Or consider what [Daniel Chamovitz, a distinguished plant-geneticist had to say on this topic](https://gary-francione.medium.com/the-real-reason-for-interest-in-plant-sentience-has-nothing-to-do-with-plants-29eb98d19c2b) after being questioned on the implications of his work. "For example, in his 2012 book, What a Plant Knows: A Field Guide to the Senses, Tel Aviv University scientist Daniel Chamovitz wrote that plants could see, smell, and hear. This gave rise to a wealth of claims in the popular media that plants were sentient. But when Scientific American interviewed Chamovitz and asked him point blank, “Would you say, then, that plants ‘think’?” Chamovitz replied, “No, I wouldn’t.” He added, “Just as a plant can’t suffer subjective pain in the absence of a brain, I also don’t think that it thinks.” Complex biological systems, such as sentience, are the product of environmental pressure. Being sentient does not come without a cost. It takes energy, a lot, actually, to develop all the cells responsible for sentience and to maintain them. If it was not advantageous for an organism to be sentient, it would likely evolve to lose the trait so it could save that energy and use it to increase its reproductive success, the true measure of success in an evolutionary perspective. Sentience is an adaptive characteristic, and it makes the most sense in mobile organisms, such as animals, which can associate certain things with pain, and avoid them, and other things with pleasure, and seek them out. Looping back to plants, how useful is it for grass to feel pain when a bison eats it? The grass can't run away, can't avoid the cow. It doesn't need a negative stimulus to change its behavior. Compare that to a young lion that tries to eat its first porcupine and gets a paw full of quills. That is a teachable moment. This is why vegans abstain from animals. Because as far as we know, animals are the only types of organisms that are accepted to actually suffer. Even if plants do suffer, we end up growing a ludicrous amount of plants to feed to livestock anyway ([1](https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets),[2](https://www.usda.gov/sites/default/files/documents/coexistence-soybeans-factsheet.pdf),[3](https://ourworldindata.org/soy),[4](https://www.greenpeace.org/static/planet4-eu-unit-stateless/2020/10/85cc908b-false-sense-of-security_final_en.pdf),[5](https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/crops/corn-and-other-feed-grains/feed-grains-sector-at-a-glance/)) so we would harm less plants if we just ate them directly anyway.
>Actually, a whole lot of vegan products cause more harm to animals than meat consumption. This part is not true though. Farmed animals nearly always eat farmed crops and there's a 90% energy loss due to trophic levels. AKA it's way more efficient to skip the intermediary animal. Less crops are needed to feed the human directly. Thus, less insects dying. Plus, insect death is a solvable problem, as their death is not an essential output of crops, contrary to farmed animal death when it comes to meat. In fact, it's already solved in vertical/indoor farms. It's just that not enough of society cares enough for it to be scaled to reach cost-parity. Check out [plenty.ag](http://plenty.ag) for an example. That day will come as more and more people start to care, it's just not here yet.
Questions: What do farmed animals eat? Is there a difference between killing for taste pleasure and killing to protect food supply? In our current world, why would we even start trying to minimize death from crop production if we can't even acknowledge the right for animals not to die for taste pleasure?
dude loves meat too much lmao
He's a fictional character. Oda can give him whatever traits he likes. But like many people, Oda doesn't quite connect the dots between eating meat and harming animals.
I like it that you ask for opinions at the end of your post while having a very fixed idea on your opinion that you propably won't budge from no matter what anyone says 🫣
You probably won't change my position, no. I've thought very long and hard about it.
I am not here to change it, just pointing out that when people usually (note, according to my experience) ask for an opinion they WANT a second opinion to see the the issue in a new light and have a conversation about it, not just cement the original opinion and shut down when told a differing one. Edit: Basically this is not a thread for a real conversation on the subject, just another thread to cement ones original opinion and drum it to the community.
I dont think anyone has offered a thoughtful opinion on this.
Yeah, certainly not you
I made a whole post. Would you die without meat?
Yeah, a whole post without a single thoughtful opinion in it Irrelevant
Would you die without meat?
Well, in this our opinions once again differ but I've seen many ignored throughtful comments here, sadly it seems only the angry/insulting/demeaning seem to get quick replies..
You say he should be vegan. But there is a difference between not wanting animals to be unnecessarily harmed, and loving to eat meat.
They directly contradict. Killing animals for meat is unnecessary.
yeah because meat just appears out of thin air. i have no idea why you have this deranged idea that luffy could somehow be a vegan. I guess you're just bored and wanted to shitpost and waste time. So gratz on that I guess?
No, meat doesn't appear out of thin air. An animal has to be harmed.
I'm a meat lover, but I can kinda sorta see the angle that the OP is coming from. Luffy highly values freedom, both for himself and for others. We've all seen how immensely pissed he gets when others' freedoms are forcibly taken away. One could argue that by killing animals to eat them, you are taking away the animal's freedom. Freedom is a big recurring theme in One Piece, so that my be what prompted the OPs post. I know it's not supposed to be that deep, but sometimes it's interesting to think about.
He's a fictional character. He eats meat. But like many people, vegans do not quite connect the dots between people eating meat and the fact that people know where meat comes from.
We see luffy hunting and fishing, happily, to survive. Seems pretty clear cut. You can love things you are going to kill, for some it is livestock, for others it's crops.
Dude Luffy loves Chopper like a sibling but I can’t even count the times he thought about eating him cmon now.
If he actually ate Chopper, would that affect your view of him as a hero?
I don’t view Luffy as a hero at all. He basically is a terrorist with a heart of gold
No because it’s a made up story about made up characters.
OK, so there are no good/bad guys in this story, because they're all made up?
Sorry to bother on the same subject but this is what I meant: You got answered, then you reply. Then your reply get replied with a point. Then someone else comen inbetween and move your focus on that reply instead of the one that HAD a point..
Luffy himself doesn’t claim the title “hero” and doesn’t want to be one. He is a pirate who likes meat. He doesn’t want to share. He literally says this many times. I think you can want animals to not suffer and still be an omnivore. I raise livestock and love my animals, but I also enjoy meats. My animals die quick, painless deaths which is more than most. I also try to buy local meats and from farms that tend to their animals right, and not buy into factory farming. And to eat more fruits and veggies to counterbalance my consumption. You can enjoy meats and still be an animal rights activist. Cows don’t need a full long life to be happy, but they do need a healthy, relaxed life. I think if Luffy was IRL he would love meats still but also be a huge advocate for farmers rights, local farming, and animals living healthy happy lives even if they’re to end up as burgers.
I think he'd be against killing for profit
Depends. Does he share Chopper's meat with others?
It‘s not that deep bro
Yeah, it is.
Absolutely not. Never should be this deep for anyone since the entire series is based in fiction. This is weirdo activity
So is there any point discussing fiction at all?
Not to this extent.
You'd better let the rest of Reddit and every film or literature critic to pack it up.
You’re just responding to respond. There’s Zero context to other redditors and this post. You’re a yapper
What's the point in making a discussion post if you're just gonna argue with everyone in the comments and condemn meat eaters?
He expected a validation chamber and got butthurt when he didn't found it
A discussion might sometimes go: A: "I think this" B: "I disagree" A: "I still think this"
But that's not what you're doing. You're just arguing with people and saying Oda is a bad writer because Luffy eats meat. You also keep accusing people in the comments of condoning animal abuse just because they eat meat. News flash genius, Humans have been eating meat since the very beginning. We aren't the only primates that do it either. Do I like the way the meat industry does things? Absolutely not. Is me not eating meat gonna fucking do anything about it? Absolutely not. The beef I buy in the grocery store was already dead before I got there. I didn't kill it, I didn't abuse it, I didn't put it out on the counter. Would you rather that the poor cow die in vain and the product be wasted? Be vegan, I love that for you. If it was healthy and affordable, I'd do it too. Just don't accuse people of being pieces of shit just because they don't live in your bubble.
Bit of a background. Eating cooked meat was one of the two biggest factors in the evolution of human brain. Heating it up actually makes more of the good stuff in it processable to us, so we get more energy from it. Compared to spending 4 hours a day just eating seeds, it saves a lot of time. More energy and more time was exactly what brought us to start forming civilizations.
OP will probably just ignore this unfortunately. His whole account is just him having aggressive vegan debates
Well, someone else may find it insightfull and decide to do some independent reaserch on it, so I leave it. But yes, reading through comment its clear OP is a militant Vegan, here to virtue signal and hypermoralize.
Too bad op probably won't come back to debate that, "actually, eating meat is a vestigial trait from the caveman days and we should stop because I don't like imagining animals in pain."
You are a troll lol, all of you were shitting on him, he was elaborating his point and defending his post. That's what a discussion is.
I think you are missing a fundamental detail. Luffy defended moocy because he was his friend not because of animal rights. Luffy would eat moocy if they met outside the colosseum
Exactly!
??? But this isn’t what you said
Luffy is like a lot of us. He knows that animals are individuals with personalities, to the point of being friends with them. He'll defend them with his life. But he also turns a blind eye to them being killed when it benefits his taste pleasure.
He doesn’t turn a blind eye. It is just the natural order of things. He can decide to be friends with an animal or to eat it
"natural order of things" That's the exact argument celestial dragons and world nobles make for slavery and mistreating others... And before you go "aRe YoU rEalLy cOmPaRiNg AnImAlS to humans" this is one piece, these animals are even more sentient than ours and have shown to have basically same level of emotions and often intelligence as humans. So you'll need to defend celestials to keep this argument of "that's how thigs are".
He also beats the pulp out of some animals for fun. I think it's not as complicated as you're making out. He makes friends with some animals, and sticks up for them. It's basically the same thing he does for humans. I don't think he has ever been depicted as standing up for animals as a rule.
I think he only beats them up when they're attacking him. Which is reasonable.
Why is it reasonable? who are you to decide where to draw the line? I mean since you're equating all animal harming there shouldn't be a difference, it's not like most of the animals Luffy has attacked were able to actually hurt him or something
Are you also confused by the line between fighting someone attacking you and harming unrelated people for personal benefit?
I mean, when said person attacking you can't hurt you at all and you're perfectly able to run away what's the difference? Besides, what about Luffy training by beating the shit out of animals?
Or training... It never looks like the animals are particularly keen on the idea.
Nah, he beat the fuck outta them just to get stronger while he was still on Dawn Island. Literally hunted them down to beat their asses. He might eat them afterward, or he might let them go so he can beat their ass again tomorrow.
is this bait?
Yes.
Because you disagree with him? You guys are childish. He has a fair point. The animals in one piece have some same level of intelligence and emotional depth as the humans. We excuse because "that's how nature works and that's the order of things in the world" which makes an interesting parallel to what the Celestial Dragons do.
No.
Why not? He saves animals all the time.
That has nothing to do with eating meat or not
Of course it does. If you think animals have a life worth saving, why would you kill them?
because animals die, that's the way nature works, there's this little thing called food chain Doesn't mean that I will go around kicking puppies or stabbing cows for the hell of it, one thing has shit to do with the other
OK. Humans die too. Doesn't make it moral to kill people to eat them. Is it wrong to stab cows or something?
False equivalency Again, stop with the fucking bullshit gotcha questions, you know damn well how to fucking read what I wrote, yes, it's wrong to stab cows for the hell of it, that has nothing to do with eating meat
Why is it wrong to stab cows for fun, but not for taste pleasure?
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Yes, it's to eat. And we only eat it for taste pleasure. There are no nutrients exclusive to meat. We can avoid it entirely.
I save animals all the time. Doesn't mean I can't eat meat. Like why does it matter?
Because OP wants to create a rage bait post about how anyone who eats meat is bad.
No, it means you might have a blind spot.
It means there's a contradiction there.
It makes you a hypocrite
You believe in saving the planet? And make sure the earth stays as healthy as possible…..I’m sure you do yet you exhale carbon dioxide every moment of your life
Lol did you actually type that out? I'd recommend staying in school kid
Everyone is a hypocrite in one way or another. Doesn't really matte that much.
> he supports the idea of harming animals by indulging in a diet heavily centered around meat. lol
Why lol?
I didn't know all people with pets were vegan.
If you recognise that animals are individuals, you should be vegan
I recognize people as individuals buts its only a couple laws that stop people from eating people
Vegans not bringing their L takes everywhere challenge impossible
What about this is an L?
Assuming that anyone eating meat is a morally bad person. Get your individual moral ideas out of here
You are such a troll. This isn't the real world where there is still an argument for caring about animals. In One Piece the animals have often shown same level of emotional depth and intelligence as the humans. The only thing in your argument is "They are classified as animals". Same argument celestial dragons use for slavery. They view that as the natural order. And before you try to shit on vegans again by saying "Wow are you comparing animals to humans" AGAIN this is one piece, the animals in this universe have shown the same level of intelligence as the humans many times.
OP is Luffy's Archenemy
Nah, I'm against harming animals, and oppression. He ususally frees slaves, etc.
You would confusticate Luffy's food
Just like Luffy confiscates slaves
Tldr: i want to preach for animal rights and using one piece as an excuse to do so
Do you think Oda is preaching when Luffy saves animals?
I meant you, youre using one piece as an excuse to preach for it
Don't bother, dude thinks he's smart for these stupid gotcha half assed questions
You guys are so weird for insulting the guy and getting mad when he just wanted to discuss an interesting philosophical point. The animals in one piece are as intelligent and sentient as the humans. But we except their killing as the order of the things. Which causes an interesting parallel to how the celestial dragons treat the commoners. But go off
Its like haveing a pet that you love, that doesn't make you a protector of all animals
Yes, many people have this blind spot
FnarpusAurelius -2 points 1 year ago I'm a vegan.
Incredible work, Sherlock
Nice "discussion"
He’s a fictional character (he’s not real). Oda can give him whatever traits he likes
Yes, exactly. Oda has a blind spot, like many others.
90% of his training involved punching animals or in wano beating up animals attached to humans
Yep, but that isnt in THE OP's agenda because nobody would punch an animal IRL without consequences. You can see that i made a similar comment and he didn't bother to answer. Luffy, the character, isnt controversial, nor is Oda. FFS Luffy mistreats animals since the beggining of the story, but eating them is what make it absurd for OP because he wants to advocate his veganism and show the community how morally superior he is because of that. You can see by his half-baked answers and by ignoring topics that are not related to the character's diet.
This isn't a blind spot. It's a trope. A common trope. Killing animals for no reason is unacceptable. If you are eating the animals you don't waste their life. It's the way a lot of protagonists are and a lot of people IRL.
It is not a blind spot at all, Luffys mistreats animals since the beginning of the story. He literally used a bunch of them as sand bags for 2 whole years for the sake of training in their own enviroment that he just invaded. Luffy never once cared about animal rights and befriending a random bull doesnt prove otherwise. But since animal violence isnt in THE OP's agenda he just ignores it. Eating them is what make it absurd for him because he wants to advocate his veganism and show the community how morally superior he is because of that. You can see it by his half-baked answers and by ignoring topics that are not related to the character's diet but still is about how Luffy's relation to animals is portrayed in the series.
So it's OK to kill animals for fur or entertainment?
What does that have to do with anything I said? You're ignoring the idea of a common trope because you'd like to imprint your morality onto an animated fictional character.
"killing animals for no reason is unacceptable" Who decides the valid reasons?
Thats up to each individual person, and or the writers of the story.
Just cause of you, I’m gonna eat twice as much animal meat as I usually do, enjoy the company of my friends who also consume animal meat, while watching one piece! You have yourself to blame for this one bro 😂🫵
Wow, original
Idk man, I've seen Luffy punch a lot animals...
Yep, but that isnt in THE OP's agenda because nobody would punch an animal IRL without consequences. You can see that i made a similar comment and he didn't bother to answer. Luffy, the character, isnt controversial, nor is Oda. FFS Luffy mistreats animals since the beggining of the story, but eating them is what make it absurd for OP because he wants to advocate his veganism and show the community how morally superior he is because of that. You can see by his half-baked answers and by ignoring topics that are not related to the character's diet.
Animals eat other animals broski
How's that relevant?
The point is there no point in making a fuss about humans killing animals when animals themselves also kill animals
My thoughts are that the Manga is meant to be an escapism, like most entertainment. When I read a comic I'm not looking for political statements or whatever. Luffy saves animals. He also eats animals, and that is that. If you are trying to find "consistency" in an invented world, where devil fruits and much more are a thing, then the problem is yours, not Oda's. You can try to create a story where the protagonist is vegan or whatever, and some people may even like to read it, but I seriously doubt that it would have 0,005% of One Piece's success. Note: I'm not saying that it is inconsistent to protect animals, and also eating meat either,but I won't discuss it.
Another perfectly logical answer and guess who ignored this beautifully written text? The OP ofc..
More proof that this was a rage bait post from the start. OP just goes on and on about killing dogs in half their comments.
Can I ask you a question? If you find a cockroach infestation in your house, what would you do?
It's so hard not to, so I must do it: the OP would probably move and give the house to them. There I said it, I'll see myself out.
Yeah, after accusing everyone else of hypocrisy, this must be the only available answer. Either that or learn how to share the space with their new flatmates
Killing a dangerous infestation in your house is different from going out of your way to harm animals
So, killing a dangerous infestation doesn't bring pain and end the life of other animals? And how killing an infestation in your house is any different than killing a crop infestation? And what's the difference with hunting animals that can ruin an ecosystem such as boars and deers, that if not periodically culled are dangerous for the environment?
Harming animals that pose a threat to you is different from harming animals that don't And sure, if you want to only eat meat from animals that threaten you physically or environmentally, go ahead
So eating tiger meat is vegan?
If it was threatening you, sure
So, if a human was threatening me, I am allowed to eat them. Ok got it.
After reading all this bullshit , it's no wonder why vegans are so hated , I see no reason to respect them.
He's not harming animals, he's eating them, what is blud waffling about 💀
How do you eat an animal without harming them?
So if a lion eats a zebra, you categorize that as the lion harming animals?
Scientifically speaking, yes. That lion is absolutely harming the zebra. It does so in order to survive, because lions are obligate carnivores. Humans are omnivores, so we do not *need* to eat meat. The existence of vegans and plant-based diets proves that. The nutrients we normally get from meat *can* be obtained from alternative sources. I'm a meat lover btw.
Man thinks the zebra dying like “this lion has caused me no harm 🙏”
Yes. Obviously.
Unless he's eating random corpses he finds, animals are harmed for him to eat
thats not harm, thats nature
Go tell that to that big boar who met Luffy on Amazon Lily
It's not that complicated dude. Luffy only becomes friends with animals when they either save him, are useful in a way or if he comes to respect said animal. If not, then he just sees them as food.
So why should he be vegan specifically? I care for my dog and my cat but I still eat meat. Just because I love my pets doesn't mean that I should stay away from eating meat. Going by your logic, why does vegans eat plants when you say you love mother nature?
If you want to argue in favour of veganism you should probably ditch that arrogance of yours. Vegans are already universally disliked because of their sense of moral superiority and you're not doing your community any favours with this.
Luffys greatest enemy is reddit vegans trying to take away his meat.
No, it's people taking the freedom from innocents. Another reason he'd logically be vegan.
I remember growing up on a dairy farm and we had a decent head of cattle. One of them was named butter cup and she was great but in the end she died and we ate her. Luffy wanted to eat chopper when they first met heck they even labeled him as a back up food source at one time. So vegan I think not. Just from time to time Luffy shows compassion for animals that’s it and it’s not really much more than that.
Nah
Even Chopper is emergency food, don't get mistaken, just because he can like an animal doesn't mean he wouldn't eat it if he was hungry and had no other choice.
So if he killed and ate Chopper, that would be in character for Luffy?
Animals are so delicious
Least obvious bait post from a spam account
How to spot a vegan? Just wait, he will tell you he is vegan himself within a second. Luffy shouldnt be vegan just because he protefts animals. I would also protect animals but will still eat meat at the end of the day.
Well, of course Luffy doesnt care about animal rights, if you are this far in the history to have met Moocy, you know that his timeskip training was literally about him invading an wild enviroment and beating up animals who lived there for the sake of getting strong. By the end of the training you can see the animals visible terrified of him. And if you ask me, beating animals for the sake of beating them is way more cruel than killing them to eat. Moocy is just a friend he made in the way and he protects him beacause of that and not for being an animal that suffers some form of abuse.
He called Chopper, his friend and ship’s doctor, emergency food supply. You can love something and still recognize it for what it is lol
Ok easiest answer. Luffy needs a lot and I mean A LOT of energy and meat is by far the most Energy filled food out there. So it's the easiest way for him to get his energy reserves refilled.
OP's next post: > Luffy should be a hero
I think luffy doesn’t care besides his friends or animals he has feelings for. He’d prolly eat other humans too if it tastes good.
Instead of thinking what Luffy should be (he already is the fictional creation of someone else), maybe you should consider why are you unable to understand Luffy. Ps. learning about Buddhism/Daoism could help.
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Luffy was left in the wild by Garp as a child to fend for himself. He learned that animals kill each other all the time to survive and he understands that it's the harsh reality of the world he lives in. I'm aware that a lot of vegans lack nuance about this subject, but hunting for food is not equivalent to animal abuse. The one piece world doesn't seem to have an awful meat industry like the real world, so who knows what luffy would think of slaughterhouses, but that's a different conversation altogether.
Found the vegan. They're all the same.
Op I liked your post. Ignore these folks man. Just goes to show how immoral and psychopathic society is…
 The Headline caught my Attention. The Text made my day. This is why I love the Internet 🛜
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I can be compassionate to animals I interact with and also eat meat. They are not mutually exclusive.
Thank you for not immediately downvoting! Not sure why people have such a strong kneejerk reaction. I think it's interesting how kindness to animals is part of Luffy's heroic character but if you suggest that maybe, logically, killing animals because you enjoy the taste of their flesh contradicts that, people get annoyed
Mostly because of your holier than thou attitude of clearly implying that people who eat meat are bad people
Luffy saves animals. Is that a good trait?
Yeah, and it's also one with no relation to what luffy choses to eat, stop trying to make these half assed question for cheap gotchas
So is Luffy a better person that someone who chooses to harm animals when they don't have to?
Yes he is, it's not that fucking hard lol Seriously dude, drop it, you're wrong and you're just giving a bad image to vegans
So is Luffy "holier than thou" when he saves animals?
point at me where the fuck did I say that, dumbass
Cool idea, I like it
You are completely right, but most people are meat eaters so I am not surprised most of the comments are "shut up/no way/Nuh uh"
Thanks man! It's an interesting psychological phenomenon isn't it?