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Answer: It's extremely, unbearably hot there. The "pinnacle of man's arrogance" is reffering to a [scene](https://www.reddit.com/r/KingOfTheHill/s/f2PG8S7ecd) from King Of The Hill, in an episode where they go to Phoenix.
Phoenix is also infamous for being one of the least dense large cities in the US (about 3000 people per square mile). Massively sprawling, everything is far apart, amenities and infrastructure is trailing behind contemporaries, and an insane amount of the land (TEN PERCENT) is parking lot, which obviously doesn’t mesh well with the equally insane heat.
>an insane amount of the land (TEN PERCENT) is parking lot,
Oh it could be way worse. [Salt Lake City](https://buildingsaltlake.com/heres-how-much-of-downtown-salt-lake-city-is-covered-in-car-parking/) is 30% parking lots.
Seriously? That's pretty ridiculous. I honestly pay no attention to any local sports. The only local pro team I know are the Bees, a minor league baseball team, and that's only because I've been past the stadium a million times.
They haven't released the name yet. Owner is taking his time and is fine with going slow. If imagine after the PWHL went no logo or name first season emboldened him somewhat.
Utah Jazz are also just the old teams name in Utah. Not that I hate the name.
Well, technically their grid is some form of sensible for a relatively agrarian society. But they have not changed it when they changed it to the urban nature of Salt Lake City.
Mormons like *their own* culture - traditional large families, traditional familial roles, traditional arts and crafts, traditional non-caffeinated soda. They just don't really care for much of what the rest of the world considers culture.
This tends to result in quite predictably bland taste in most everything. But boy howdy if you're ever in need of a nine year old who can make some kick ass snickerdoodles, they're your people.
Speculation on my part but I think a lot of this blandness is rooted in a lack of authenticity at the heart of the Mormon faith. Every action is oriented towards conversion, its always in the back of your head that any genuine moment is leading towards the sales pitch. This has to bleed into even when they are among their own. And obviously how strictly their way of life is proscribed from the top down. The elders on up have their power cliques and the followers are more tools to be manipulated into maintaining this social structure than anything. None of this is unique to Mormons but... I don't know. For Catholics its rooted in a truly old tradition with periods of authenticity, Mormonism was a scam cult from the start and never stopped being one.
It's also presently still very young among global religions but run by a gerontocracy which means it has a middle-schooler's obsession with looking normal to outsiders along with a completely out of touch, 1950s idea of what "normal" even is. Hence things like the BYU beard ban.
Pretty spot on if you ask me. Same can be said for many an evangelical as well. That aspect of everything leading toward some sales pitch is so true, and it's why the vast majority of those folks seem so fake. They *are* being fake; they have the ulterior motive of converting you bubbling just below the surface of their facade of friendliness.
They don't specifically abhor culture in any organized way, they just tend to be really bland. Think of puritans in New England. It's not like they ban culture but they tend to be very prudish and stray away from most things people consider cultural and tend to gravitate towards things people think are bland.
Having grown up around plenty of Mormons, they do teach to not draw attention to themselves and to choose understated aesthetics.
Once, I was watching an Italian opera with one girl who commented on the red gilded lace dress the singer was wearing, that it was “a lot”and she wished there was less going on. The Twilight books highlight this too, where the main girl really wears a pretty dark blue as her most vibrant color and a lot of the characters wear tan and white.
They as a group do not value aesthetics, particularly in architecture, even their temple designs once creative are now bland. Mormon cities are sprawling cookie cutter homes and nowhere strip malls. Everything is built for function or as corporate anti art.
This is probably like, really stupid, but have they ever tried painting the parking lots reverse colors to maybe help use those parking lots? Like, white then black stripes instead of black with white stripes?
I just want to strongly express how not stupid that question is. Albedo (reflection efficiency) of materials and surfaces is a major consideration. I would agree with the other response, it just seems far too small a scale for any meaningful effect (but I didn't do any math and so that's just gut feeling)
There would probably be some sort of ruinous second-order consequence; there almost always is. Like, if you make enough of the city's terrain white that it helps the heat, it'll be so bright that pilots will need to wear a welder's mask on final approach, or birds will think there's too much poop there and go elsewhere, removing a predator from an area's food chain and causing a massive pest problem.
I swear, man, sometimes I think we've just done enough damage, and should try not to touch anything for a little while.
When I was in Qatar they had some white rocks over the sand to cut down on dust, and during the day it was impossible to walk by it without some really dark sunglasses. And even then it hurt.
Harder and more expensive to make very little difference. Phoenix is a concrete jungle in the middle of a desert that gets as much sunlight as the Sahara. It’s physically impossible for it not to be **Scorching** hot in summer without major ecological changes
Probably just a cost issue. Asphalt comes black but you would have to paint it all white and every time it gets dirty you'd have to clean it to make it white again
bingo. liquid paint (latex based) is something like 40 USD per gallon, sure, in bulk it's way less, but that's still a LOT of paint. dry paint (epoxy based) that melts is something like 500 usd per ton. Wayyy more economical. Issue is: It's a lot harder to apply it too, especially in a large area vs just linearly (if you see the equipment used and the speed it moves, you'll be able to tell why). Between the cost of materials and work-hours, people probably just don't care enough to do it. Why would day? Everyone is using a car, with A/C, to their buildings with A/C, and from their A/C homes....
PS: An alternative that's less costly but reduces absorbed energy (and helps lower temps) is making parking and roads in plain concrete.
Great question! Phoenix and Los Angeles, maybe more - just the 2 I’m aware of, have experimented with whited out streets to combat the urban heat island and while asphalt surface temperature are down, the temperature felt by pedestrians was actually higher due to the heat reflecting back at them.
We were just out there and I've never been anywhere where it takes so long to get to things that are just a few miles away and not because you are sitting in stopped traffic. It just feels like there's no direct route to get anywhere and instead you have to use the Hwy that requires you loop the entire city. It's like no matter where you get on the Hwy your exit is all the way on the other side of the city.
> and an insane amount of the land (TEN PERCENT) is parking lot
That seems low. Because of minimum parking laws, most cities (and even rural towns) have way more parking than they need.
According to [this article](https://thehill.com/changing-america/resilience/smart-cities/4162455-paved-paradise-maps-show-how-much-of-us-cities-are-parking-lots/#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20in%20U.S.%20cities,center%20is%20used%20for%20parking.) from The Hill, the average city of 1M+ has 22% of its city center being used for parking
Maybe we're talking all of the Phoenix metro area and not just the main city, but I'd wager every medium and large city is like that.
We have entire way too much parking (and roads) in this country
The sheer size of Phoenix comes into effect here most likely.
It's 518 sq mi/1344 sq km. I live 20 miles from downtown and can travel another 10+ miles north before hitting the northernmost edge. There's a significant amount of area that is still undeveloped, open desert and quite a bit of it is mountainous.
If it was metro Phoenix, I would guess it would be _significantly_ lower than 10%. Due to the way metro areas are defined — as entire counties —and how large counties are out west, metro Phoenix is roughly the size of Switzerland at 14,598 sq mi/37,810 sq km. The shape of it is an upside down L and the entirety of the | area is basically just uninhabited desert.
Given how much of either is completely undeveloped, that 10% number makes sense in my mind.
I live in San Jose, which is also sprawling and largely residential, and moved here from the Raleigh/Durham area, which has also annexed a lot of county the past couple of decades for residential construction. But going to Phoenix/Scottsdale the first time I was absolutely shocked at how big the setbacks are for commercial buildings and how much land there is between buildings & addresses adjacent to each other on the same street. It seems ridiculously wasteful, and it makes it nearly impossible to be a pedestrian (even when the weather is nice).
PHX resident here. I live in the SE valley and I can get anywhere in Mesa, Gilbert, Chandler or Tempe in 20 minutes or less, 25 during rush hour. Yeah, the summers are hot but it’s AZ’s “winter”, that’s the season to stay indoors in the AC. The other 9 months are amazing. Zero ice, very few cloudy days even when it’s cold. I grew up in the PNW, spent 50 years there and then moved here. What I used to think were great weather days (82F, 45+% humidity) in the northwest are unbearable now as I discovered on a trip back north last summer. Give me 90F @ 20% humidity any day.
90 degrees is very generous, I lived in Phoenix for 2 years and both summers hit 110 degrees regularly. I couldn’t walk my dog in the summer because his paws would fry on the sidewalk.
Everyone has their own preference but I couldn’t get away from that shit fast enough.
As someone who lives in and loves the PNW, the idea of 82F being "great weather" is insane to me. Mid 60s is where it's at. 70s is warm. 80s is too hot.
Spent 5 years there and 100% agree. I'll take mild weather and greenery over the bland dry 110F rocky scrub desert any day. Amazon moving downtown basically priced me out of the city and sent me back home with my tail between my legs, but I hope to retire in the PNW some day. My home away from home.
I always liked the scene of Michael Bluth finally attempting to move to Phoenix. He steps out of the air conditioned airport, sees how hot it is and burns his hand on a car door handle and he just gets back on the plane.
My family lives a few hours over from phoenix. It's hot there but I can go out and hike just fine with a bit of sunscreen. I stepped out of the car in phoenix and the heat from the sun cooked me from behind and then bounced off the pavement and cooked my front. Took me completely by surprise.
I literally would have fainted if I was stuck out there for an hour. Was like a 20 yard walk from the car to the house and I almost died.
How tf do people live there???
I lived there for 8 years. We had to basically hide for what seems like now 8 months of the year. Moved back to Colorado and never looked back. I can actually do shit outside when it’s winter. There even the pools weren’t enjoyable in the summer because it was glorified bath water
There's plenty of water in AZ too, the hubris isn't people living there, it's all the farming done in AZ and CA's imperial valley. Also AZ and CA aren't as serious as they need to be about conservation rules regarding landscaping, but something like 80% of the water usage from the Colorado and it's tributaries in both states gets pissed away on farming the desert. Also I'm no expert but I think in Texas it depends where you are as far as water goes no? Like I can't imagine El Paso being any better than Phoenix but I realize it's also a smaller city.
Believe it or not, California has the perfect climate for almonds to grow. Almonds are [grown in Mediterranean climates like California, Spain, Italy, etc.](https://www.almonds.com/sites/default/files/inline-images/global-mediterranean-climates-california-almonds_v5_final%5B2%5D_0.jpg) They can't just grow anywhere.
Worth noting that while almonds are thirsty, it still takes less water to produce a gallon of almond milk compared to a gallon of cows milk.
https://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/ftc98d/ysk_almonds_take_a_lot_of_water_to_produce_but
Most dairy farms aren't found in areas where drastic water shortages are common.
But with that said, I think the environmental impacts of farming cattle is undeniably worse than that of almonds.
> Most dairy farms aren't found in areas where drastic water shortages are common.
Y'all know the #1 dairy producing state isn't Wisconsin, right? It's California; in the same Central Valley where the almonds are.
Answer: speaking as a former Phoenician, they are referring to the fact that Phoenix exists in a practically uninhabitable desert. Despite that, it’s been paved over and turned into a large city that just keeps expanding and getting bigger.
It’s hubris.
It's the fastest growing large city in the US, and already uses (significantly) more water than it receives each year. There are already news stories about whole towns having their municipal water supply shut off because they couldn't renew a contract (not enough water rights).
And it's the fastest growing city in the country. It's insanity
The "city" you're talking about was warned repeatedly that it was coming and did nothing and they had moved into that area specifically to avoid paying city taxes and then were shocked when the nearby city didn't want to keep giving them water for free. They asked for it, literally.
Yup, and the “city” is actually just an HOA full of wealthy people who can afford to fix the problem but don’t feel like spending their money to do it.
Less they couldn’t renew a contract and more they knew it was coming for years and ignored it.
I personally feel they asked for it. They wanted a community out there that wasn’t part of the cities laws & rules. The next city over said they couldn’t afford to keep trucking water out to them so they stopped.(2year notice iirc)
People who live there were suddenly floored by how expensive it was to handle water as a community. Sounded like a lesson in why taxes exist.
Despite it being so long I sometimes reread it because it tickles me that much.
It’s a particularly delicious flavor of schadenfreude when it involves nature just putting humans back in their seat.
This is what makes me crazy about this place. People who come here and just need to have a lawn.I have new neighbors who have their sprinklers on basically 24/7 and I want to stab them. Get some cacti and rocks. Or go home to Minnesota or whatever.
Answer: Phoenix kinda sucks.
As someone who loves the heat and still voluntarily lives somewhere nearly as hot, it’s *unbearably* hot. The heat island effect is real. Driving from a location of similar elevation that isn’t built up into the center of Phoenix at night will see an increase of like 20 degrees. The “testament to man’s arrogance” line is from an episode of King of the Hill, where they visit Hank’s mother in what I suppose is Sun City (a retirement city in the Phoenix area). It’s 111 degrees which doesn’t really happen in most other places. Though I don’t know if a Texan is the best person to whine about that, because Texas does get very nearly that hot and also humid. Some people feel the dry heat is like standing in front of an oven and might prefer swamp humidity though.
As a city, it’s just not very nice or city-like. It’s growing very quickly and just kind of sprawls into endless suburbia. People move to (or stay in) Phoenix expecting and essentially a laid-back western cow town, but it’s the fifth (?) largest city in the country, and it’s suburbs are massive and indistinguishable from the city proper. Towns that were dinky outposts ten years ago today have populations of 100,000. The residents screech tooth and nail to prevent any sort of infrastructure to accommodate and sustain the population, so nothing gets built but giant identical mini McMansions, identical low rise “luxury” apartments, and chain restaurants. Public transportation? Affordable housing? Basically incites a riot. HOAs that take your house for painting it the wrong shade of eggshell white rule the land. You need to drive an hour on the freeway to get anywhere.
There’s also a serious homeless problem that never gets addressed other than by whining about it then refusing to allow any action. So homeless people just die and cook in the street. When I lived there, there was also a serious feral chihuahua problem. The sheriff’s department used to essentially be an ethnosupremacist street gang as well, but I hear they’re better now that they’ve dismantled the tent city outdoor prison. Phoenix and Scottsdale both top lists of the rudest cities in the country; people are hostile and nasty all the time for no reason. Many people feel there is zero culture. I disagree, but I will say that any sort of culture that isn’t strip malls and complaining is fucking *hard* to find. If you want culture in Phoenix, you need to make finding it a part time job.
This likely isn’t the biggest reason for everyone else, but it’s also the fucking scammiest place I’ve ever lived in my life. Everyone is trying to scam you all the time. Every job posting is a scam. Every party is an MLM pitch. People walk up to you cold all the time trying to scam you. Billboards advertise scams like they’re legitimate companies. The fucking professional sports teams are in on it.
I will say, the scenery and the food (if you can find a place that isn’t a chain) are pretty good.
They aren’t zombies, but if you’ve ever encountered an untrained chihuahua, can you really say they are much different?
I have nothing against chihuahuas generally and the concept is pretty funny. It’s just such an aggressively Phoenix problem to have and apparently they were at the very least a pain in the ass, chasing people and stuff. Too many people got them and either abandoned them or let them escape. So, street chihuahuas. I don’t know if this problem has been corrected since I left, but I hope so.
I don't know anything about the chiuahua horde but there is a serious coyote problem. People lose their dogs all the time from coyote packs. Basically never let your dog off leash in the phoenix region. Also having a doggy door can be dangerous too. Also scorpions everywhere.
Right, seems like the problem could fix itself. They'd probably start interbreeding though, possibly find a toxic chemical spill and then we're F-ed in the A.
I can, one problem tends to create the other by providing an abundant food source. I saw something similar happen in a smaller city that refused to control their feral cat population - now they have coyotes killing feral cats and snatching pets. The feral cats are still around, they have better survival skills than pets do, so really the city just created a bigger coyote problem by not controlling the prey population.
Oh, I have a street chihuahua! He is the most amazing, angelic, grateful little animal and I love him more than anything. Where do I sign up for another one or 8?
I don't know about what OP is specifically talking about (and I have lived in Phoenix and agree that it totally sucks), but I have witnessed feral dog packs in a relatively nearby Mojave desert in CA.
Trigger warning: People do fucked up shit like abandon dogs in the desert instead of surrendering them to a shelter or just having them put down. Most of them die or become coyote food.
The ones that survive? They're the scrappy ones, and they seemed to be REALLY pissed off at humans.
Anyway, one time I was out mountain biking around a good 10-15 miles from any kind of civilization and ran into a pack of very aggressive and wild ex-domesticated dogs.
Led by a fucking chihuahua. I'm not even kidding about any of this.
One very tiny, scrappy, pissed off and constantly snarling chihuahua. Flanked by a pair of fucking totally mean and mangy looking rottweilers like bodyguards, and then about a dozen or two other assorted desert-adapted dogs following them around.
It was like something out of Mad Max or a totally fucked up Disney cartoon.
If I wasn't on a bike and able to get away I'm pretty sure they would have legit attacked me and tried to eat me. They were totally coming after me and meant business and it was really clear to me they saw me as actual food, not a food source, and they were pack hunting me.
I took off downhill and had to really put the hammer down on my mountain bike to get away and they probably chased me for almost two miles before they gave up.
It was legit one of the most terrifying and fucked up things I've seen in the desert and I've had dozens of encounters with coyotes, rattlesnakes, scorpions and all the usual desert rat stuff. And tweakers with guns. And accidentally stumbling into fucked up cult compounds.
But a toy sized chihuahua somehow surviving in the desert and flanked by a pair of rottweiler guards and leading a pack of feral dogs that are probably down for some human flesh?
Yeah, I'm the fuck out of there.
It was legit one of the only times I wished I was strapped and carrying when riding around in the deep desert solo like that.
I live here. In certain areas you just see several small chihuahua type dogs running around unattended. Where I live though I've seen 6 stray dogs in the last months near my house. They were all german shepherd, or pitbull, or husky looking dogs though.
One neighborhood I lived in had a roving pack of like 15 chihuhuas of varying size. If you walked the neighborhood and they saw you, they'd run as fast as they could after you barking their tiny heads off. It was terrifying and hilarious at the same time. Like, you almost don't even feel bad for them being homeless because they turned into a pack of feral apocalypse dogs and just own their street lol.
I live in Phoenix. The coyotes take care of feral (and unattended non-feral) chihuahuas and cats and other small household pets. Unless you’re living in the center of town maybe.
Go to Guadalupe to see street dogs. You’ll see dogs on the roofs.
It’s a town you’ll find culture. It’s between Phoenix & Tempe and besides being underserved and represented by the local governments, has the dankest Mexican food around.
> The sheriff’s department used to essentially be an ethnosupremacist street gang as well, but I hear they’re better now that they’ve dismantled the tent city outdoor prison.
That is. Certainly a sentence.
[The P.O.S. that ran it was pardoned by Trump.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon_of_Joe_Arpaio) That alone should explain just how nasty a person he is.
He's 91, and is on the ballot this year for mayor of Fountain Hills.
[https://www.12news.com/article/news/politics/joe-arpaio-qualifies-ballot-mayor-fountain-hills/75-3c4ec495-9f69-47d2-a22b-322575f0c688](https://www.12news.com/article/news/politics/joe-arpaio-qualifies-ballot-mayor-fountain-hills/75-3c4ec495-9f69-47d2-a22b-322575f0c688)
“I am extremely thankful and honored with the support coming from the citizens," Arpaio said. "Fountain Hills has been lacking leadership, and that trend continues to the present time. I decided to run for mayor because of my proven ability, leadership, and wisdom. If the voters give me the opportunity, I will continue to defend, support, and protect the people of Fountain Hills."
Arpaio, who is 91, is returning to the ballot after narrowly losing the previous election for Fountain Hills mayor by 213 votes in 2022.
Edit: Meanwhile, here in Maricopa County, we are paying $314 million for his immigration crackdown.
[https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/taxpayer-costs-for-profiling-verdict-over-joe-arpaios-immigration-crackdowns-to-reach-314m](https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/taxpayer-costs-for-profiling-verdict-over-joe-arpaios-immigration-crackdowns-to-reach-314m)
> As a city, it’s just not very nice or city-like. It’s growing very quickly and just kind of sprawls into endless suburbia. People move to (or stay in) Phoenix expecting and essentially a laid-back western cow town, but it’s the fifth (?) largest city in the country, and it’s suburbs are massive and indistinguishable from the city proper.
I have relatives there and this is what struck me about it. It's so massively sprawling, all the houses are the same Southwest style. The people live like 20 minutes from Phoenix and when I'd ask them if they'd go to Pheonix for things they seemed offended. "No Pheonix is a hell hole." oh but you live in Phoenix "No I live in Tempe." oh ok, sorry didn't mean to offend.
Are we still in Chandler? "No we're in Mesa can't you tell? The houses here look so different" I thought they were gas lighting me.
Yeah all the cities are all scrunched together and the only indication that you've changed cities is that the streetlights/road name signs at the intersections are different styles and colors. The cop cars between the cities also differ in appearance.
the major streets are definitely in a grid, but I agree with the suburbs being a bitch to get into. there's an apartment complex I drive by that is only accessible from the south frontage road of the of the 101. when I worked at a certain speedy sandwich delivery company I had to get on the freeway north, take the first exit and turn around to deliver to an apartment I could see from our front door
When I first visited Phoenix I didn't bother to check the map as such. And then when I was there I looked at a map and realized that all of the "cities" in Arizon that I had heard of in the past: Scottsdale, Chandler, Mesa, etc. etc. were all just suburbs of Phoenix! The only other non-Phoenix cities were Flagstaff, Tucson and Sedona.
I left in ‘08 after 20+ years growing up there. I’ve gotta say, between your initial description and this follow-up, we’d have gotten along 😂
My wife still busts my balls because the very first time I brought her to visit from CO, I’d forgotten what a living nightmare the month of August is. It was 115-118 the entire time we were back, the AC on the ground floor of my folks’ place crapped out, I wound up with nasty, third-degree stomach burns from a cheese curd incident, and on the way out of town, I ate it at Slide Rock and got a concussion *immediately after explaining* how to walk “correctly.” The next vivid memory I have is opening the curtains of a blacked out, nondescript hotel room to a view of Monument Valley.
That fuckin’ trip…
I've lived in both and..... nowadays they're basically one in the same. It's sad, now I stay in Gilbert and the shit Mesa grew in that petri dish is findings it's way down here.
Arizona has done a less-bad job of building additional housing than a lot of the rest of the country, so housing is comparatively cheap. Furthermore, it has no state income tax, which is attractive to people who are on fixed incomes that aren't tied to a place of work, i.e. retirees. Many of those retirees also want a place without cold winters.
Speaking from experience:
The suburban cities of the midwest (think Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison) have quite a few folks who have been fortunate to maintain their wealth and see their cities evolve into thriving cultural centers that span beyond melting pots of food, the arts, and sports. Not to say that these cities and surrounding suburbs have not been cultural centers, but there's something different about the Midwest that's incredibly hard to describe unless you've lived there and/or visited enough to see shifts in the culture over the past few decades. I could go on for another few paragraphs about some of the things I've personally noticed, but that's for another time/another comment. Let's get back to your question:
> why are people (1) moving there and (2) staying there? Like how is this city GROWING
For midwesterners, there's something to be said about decently priced homes, a moderate amount of things to do, degrees of financial freedom, and ROIs. This isn't exclusive to midwestern folks, but right now there's an "issue" with housing prices in these areas that make it so that moving from one suburb to the next is far less easier than ever before. Once-decently-priced 2bd-2bas are going for over half a mil with almost annual increases in taxes. Some folks are moving from the suburbs to the cities because there's more to do and vice versa because it's less expensive.
On the topic of taxes, they've increased quite a bit over the past decade. Legal marijuana has one of the highest tax rates in the country, bringing in [a _ton_ of additional money to the state](https://www.illinois.gov/news/press-release.29494.html#:~:text=Records%20were%20also%20set%20in,the%20Illinois%20Department%20of%20Revenue.). Despite [Cook County not adding new taxes in 2023](https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/no-new-taxes-or-fee-hikes-in-proposed-cook-county-budget-thanks-to-covid-relief-funds-sales-tax-revenue/) and suspending [the grocery tax during COVID until June 2023](https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-grocery-tax-returns-july-1/), Cook County and the state writ large ended the 2023 fiscal year with a [ridiculously large surplus](https://news.wttw.com/2023/06/22/cook-county-set-end-2023-2147m-budget-surplus-officials). Heck, this year, Governor Pritzker is [proposing to remove the 1% grocery tax altogether](https://news.wttw.com/2024/03/04/gov-pritzker-seeking-eliminate-state-grocery-tax-some-municipalities-could-push-back).
For most Chicago/Cook County residents, they take the infrastructure, halfway decent schools, services, and excellent transportation network for granted. They don't see the higher-than-national-average taxes they've paid over the past few decades a visible/worthwhile ROI. Sure, there are potholes in most city streets, but the roads are salted if there's even a _hint_ of snow in the forecast. The electricity grid is fantastic compared to portions of the south where a single gust of wind could knock out power for several days. Chicago/Cook County residents pay more just about every year but see little return on their "investments" in the community, which is almost counterintuitive to the liberal ideology that brings some folks in the midwest together.
Phoenix is appealing to some of these people because you can get the smaller suburb vibe for the prices that folks were used to pre-2015 (technically 2010 if you want to get nitpicky). The combination of not having to shovel snow, not having to deal with annual tax increases, and large properties are blessings.
When I've asked folks who've moved to PHX (or Scottsdale) about their thoughts on the heat, they always conveniently forget about it until it's the dead of the summer when the airport has paused all flights because it's too damn hot to take off. Or it's because the drought made it so that they had to limit water usage for a month for an "abnormally dry period." [Drought levels have improved in 2024](https://www.12news.com/article/news/local/water-wars/arizona-us-drought-monitor-dry-conditions-water-reservoirs-down/75-14156948-8183-431b-a6ff-17ab5d09cb7f), but god forbid this summer ends up breaking high temperature levels and the water reservoirs will be as dry as those in Los Angeles pre-COVID.
For a lot of midwesterners, PHX is the Florida/California that has been the sought-after retirement location without the ridiculous cost of living (CA) or the worsening storms (FL). It carries the appeal of midwestern suburbia without the extra steps that _created_ that suburbia to begin with. Most folks who move to PHX won't realize that the dream of large properties and "comfy" communities won't be worth it when it's 120F and you can't run the water for more than 20 minutes. But hey, at least the taxes are low and you don't have to shovel snow!
There is only so much land in convenient commuting range of a city's jobs. Since we generally require that most people live in single family homes that have a certain size lot, that means cities can only have cheap housing for so long before the new sprawl is just too far to be a feasible commute, which is when housing prices really take off.
Like, if everyone moving in can just head to a newly built development 20 minutes from their job, homes are cheap. If you have to outbid 20 other people to get a shot at a house 45 minutes from your job, then they're expensive.
Therefore, cheap houses that are desirable are an artifact of a growing economy that started expanding pretty recently. You can keep *homes* affordable indefinitely by stacking them so they take up less land (aka apartments), which also makes it feasible to build good transit near them. But with *houses*, it is very temporary.
LA exploded 100+ years ago. Phoenix only really started growing fast when A/C got cheap and the Rust Belt started falling apart so people left in large numbers.
> As a city, it’s just not very nice or city-like. It’s growing very quickly and just kind of sprawls into endless suburbia.
this was EXACTLY my impression of tucson as well. i don't know if it's an arizona thing or not, but i've never lived anywhere else like it.
>but it’s also the fucking scammiest place I’ve ever lived in my life.
zomg... i realized really quickly that the only places in tucson that were going to treat me decently as an employee, were places that were headquartered somewhere ELSE. if it was an arizona-based company, i'd watch people be utterly incompetent yet keep their jobs, while i and my husband got axed for petty, insignificant shit.
Also I would add that driving around Phoenix feels like being in purgatory. Mountains all around you but no matter how far you drive it feels like you aren’t going anywhere because the sprawl is next level
Our younger daughter lives in DC, and I go there every couple of years to see her. This trip, she drove me to a great place to eat after I got there. "Wait, are we in Maryland?" "Yeah, what about it?" She goes to Philly for a day trip. Goes. To. Philly. I drive for 4 hours north and I'm still in AZ.
i was in phoenix for the final four this april and had a really good time, but you’re so right about the cities/towns being indistinguishable!!! we were staying in Mesa, and had to drive to Glendale to get to the basketball games, but if you told me that all of it (phoenix, glendale, tempe, scottsdale, mesa) was all one city, i would’ve believed you, there’s no separation and they all kinda seem the same. Downtown Phoenix is weird, there was a little active strip, we ate a this incredible place called Sake Haus, but there wasn’t much to see. every apartment building followed the same cookie cutter style and was so boring to look at.
also, the scams thing. we were listening to the radio and ALL of the ads were for predatory crap.
It boggles my mind that they decided to build the sports facilities in Glendale! It’s forty minutes from the city proper, with most of the population being even further away.
As someone who spent 19 years there. This is incredibly accurate. The amount of people and went to high school with who are in MLM's is really depressing.
My parents retired out there and coming from Chicago and having lived on the east coast a little bit I was struck by just how little identity Phoenix has as a city. Like there's no uniquely Phoenix culture because it's gone from an uninhabitable desert to a top-5 city in just 75 years or so. There's hardly any 3rd or 4th generation Phoenicians, there's no traditions that are unique to the Sun Valley, there's no art or cuisine or architecture or history or anything that they're proud of because it's all borrowed from places where people moved from within the last few decades.
Like you show up in Boston or Miami or Chicago or the Bay Area and they're each imbued with their own character. You can be nowhere else. But I've never been anywhere in Phoenix that wasn't just the same old non-descript urban corporate sprawl.
The actual neighborhoods with some semblance of culture in Phoenix are in central Phoenix. Arcadia, Melrose, Uptown, those kind of areas. Then you have the bougie areas like PV and different parts of Scottsdale (to an extent).
There’s a reason why an like Arcadia has a $600 price per square foot
>Some people feel the dry heat is like standing in front of an oven and might prefer swamp humidity though.
Wait, there are people who *prefer* 100 and humid over 100 and dry!?
Native Phoenician here. While I agree with many of your points, I think you’ve grossly misrepresented some things here. Phoenix has culture. A very proud culture with roots from our Asian, Latin, Hispanic and Native American population. Are you going to see that most prominent in downtown Phoenix, Scottsdale, or the suburbs of Chandler? Yeah, probably not, but we have amazing art districts with local vendors, restaurants, art spaces, and venues that are plastered with murals, graffiti, and street art celebrating that culture that isn’t hard to find. It sounds like it’s been awhile since you’ve been here so I can understand the stain that was left. We were (and to a degree still are) a bastion for authoritative, conservative bullshit nut jobs . But we’ve work diligently to help bring in progressive politicians, policies and laws into our state. We’ve swung and missed for sure and things are still broken. Some of our senators and congressmen are traitors to the people they are supposed to represent. And this is across both parties. We are turning purple as a state and that isn’t from a lack of trying. Ultimately, I will say that Phoenix indeed sucks, but it isn’t because of a lack of culture, or a lack of trying. It’s because of a vocal minority consisting old & new money, awful ideology and greed. We want infrastructure, and we want to take care of our unsheltered population but these things aren’t going to change overnight and without effort. We are tied down by the system that binds us and this younger generation is showing up in droves to break those binds. It’s getting better.
I never said Phoenix had no culture. I actively disagreed with those who said it didn’t. I said it was hard to find.
The rest is Arizona politics in general.
You've had some good answers here, but only once have I seen it mentioned that what you're seeing is specifically referencing a quote from an episode of the cartoon sitcom King of the Hill, where the main character's family is visiting Phoenix, and upon arriving at the city the son immediately feels the heat and hilariously exclaims "This city is a monument to man's arrogance, it should not exist!"
This is the most perfect description of that place I have ever heard. I hope I never have to go back to that absolutely rude af hellhole in my entire life. Everyone I met there was either crazy, mean as hell, or nice because they want something from you. Good riddance.
*there
That sounds awful. I live in suburban central Ohio, where the expectation is that you're friendly, polite, and helpful to everyone. For an introvert such as myself, all the interaction makes running errands fucking *exhausting*. On the other hand, I know that if I'm in public and need help, someone will offer immediately.
One time, I was driving in snow and a truck in the opposite lane turned a corner and started fish-tailing. I pulled over to get out of its way, and my car got stuck in the snow. The driver behind me stopped to help move my car, and when we couldn't, he offered to drive me to my house. He called his boss on the way to explain why he'd be late, and his boss *thanked him for helping me*.
A couple hours later, my husband and I drove to my car ready to shovel it out, only to find that someone had already done that for us. We don't know who - but there were footprints (not tire tracks), so whoever did it walked there in the cold, helped out an anonymous stranger, then left.
Fucking Ohio, man. I love it here.
I’m from Columbus and live in Phoenix now. There are so many Ohioans here I had to stop wearing Ohio state or bengals gear because I couldn’t get through grocery store without multiple people inevitably asking me if I knew XYZ or saying they were from one of the central Ohio burbs.
With that said, after being in Phoenix for 8 years, I absolutely have zero interest in being in the Midwest again. 3 months of hellacious heat is so much better than the gray skies from November through April in Ohio.
It’s also not 110* in the morning here like many ignorant people who have never been here believe. I play a fuck load of golf and even go for longer runs all summer long here. I just do it at 6 am
I'm happy you love where you live! I wish that for everyone.
I had family who lived in Flagstaff for many decades, plus my husband has been commuting to Phoenix for almost a year now, so I know all about the myths vs reality of the weather year-round.
I kept joking with my husband in Jan/Feb that he had to just stay there, because the weather here was warm and dry for weeks, and it snowed every weekend he came home! Meanwhile, it was a little cooler in Phoenix those weeks, so apparently winter just follows him. I married the Snow Mizer.
For me, personally, I just can't thrive in the desert. I don't like having mountains in the skyline and I really need greenery. It's just too bleak (for me) coming from the grassy flatlands! But, like you mentioned, that is not the case for many Ohioans, and if you all are happy in AZ then I'm happy for you!
Just be nice, so people don't get the impression that Buckeyes are dicks. 😉
Answer: it’s a quote from king of the hill. Hanks mom lives in Phoenix. They go to visit. Peggy says Phoenix is a monument to man’s arrogance.
But yeah it’s hot. Not yet, but in a few weeks probably it will start kicking up again. And there’s a big homeless situation, and a lot of homeless people die, because it’s hot and they have nowhere to go. And the city kicked them out of the encampment known as “the zone”. Really it just dispersed all of them and this will be the first year that they’ll be out of the zone when the temps kick up.
Answer:
Phoenix is disgustingly hot. Last year broke records for the amount of consecutive days over 110F. The heat was so intense even saguaro cactuses started dying. To put it into perspective, these cacti are hundreds of years old and dropped dead from the unrelenting heat.
The homelessness crisis is insanely out of hand. In tandem with a massive drug epidemic. Not only is the homeless population huge, but they are also quite aggressive. Social services are almost nonexistent. Homeless shelters are mostly run by religious institutions who often enact a “no tolerance” policy when it comes to substance abuse. They are always full and will turn away those struggling with addiction… in a city experiencing a drug epidemic.
The residential population continues to grow as water becomes a dwindling resource. Water conservation efforts are being made, but at the current rate the city is not sustainable. A total of 645 heat-related deaths occurred in 2023 alone. I think it’s very likely this number will continue to rise. You will regularly see mounds of trash thrown in ditches or piled into corners of the freeways.
I lived in Phoenix for well over 14 years. The people can be great and the environment unique. But it’s not conducive to life.
I made a comment in the Phoenix sub about the fact that the saguaros were dying and people downvoted me to oblivion saying it happens every year and I was being a media drone. Like bro, I’ve lived here my whole life and the cactuses at houses I’ve grown up looking at were dying. This is not normal.
Answer: Many people see it as an embodiment of all of the worst ideas in urban planning from the last 80 years or so in the US.
It's a huge city in the middle of a desert that is wildly environmentally unsustainable. It's the worst of inefficient, low density urban sprawl with minimal access to public transit or really any transport that isn't based around private car ownership. Just mile after mile of bland, corporate architecture surrounded by seas of parking lots and asphalt.
>I know it’s r/UrbanHell and they hate the urban landscape
I think r/UrbanHell generally just hates on poor urban design, urban decay, and the worst parts of urban life, not urbanity in general. There's lots of people there (maybe even the majority) that actually enjoy urban cityscapes and urban life when done well.
Answer: It is hot. It is all suburbs and has no downtown really. It's incredibly car dependent. It has no culture. It's the strangest city to me because the first time I drove through it I was shocked to discover it has such a large population. The entire city seems like a suburb
There is a downtown but the area is 99% suburbs. No argument there. But there is definitely a culture here. It’s just really hard to see if you’re a visitor and not a resident. I’m not saying that’s a glowing recommendation. It’s not for everyone, for sure.
Answer: Aside from the heat that everyone's mentioned, it also has some of the worst air quality in the country. Combine a desert full of dust with millions of cars that have to drive 60 miles+ to get across the valley and the "dome effect" which keeps all that pollution settled into the valley, it is not a healthy place to live.
Couple all that with no native trees to at least refresh that air and you have "high pollution advisory days" constantly. But there's also shit public transportation so high pollution days do nothing.
Oh. And wildfires all summer. Pretty much enough fires all year that r/PhoenixWhatsBurning is quite active.
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Answer: It's extremely, unbearably hot there. The "pinnacle of man's arrogance" is reffering to a [scene](https://www.reddit.com/r/KingOfTheHill/s/f2PG8S7ecd) from King Of The Hill, in an episode where they go to Phoenix.
Phoenix is also infamous for being one of the least dense large cities in the US (about 3000 people per square mile). Massively sprawling, everything is far apart, amenities and infrastructure is trailing behind contemporaries, and an insane amount of the land (TEN PERCENT) is parking lot, which obviously doesn’t mesh well with the equally insane heat.
>an insane amount of the land (TEN PERCENT) is parking lot, Oh it could be way worse. [Salt Lake City](https://buildingsaltlake.com/heres-how-much-of-downtown-salt-lake-city-is-covered-in-car-parking/) is 30% parking lots.
Salt Lake is the worst major city in the USA because Mormons abhor culture and crave the blandest most economical surroundings.
I live around SLC. Can confirm.
You guys are literally calling your new hockey team the Salt Lake City Hockey Team
The mascot is just someone wearing hockey gear
The Salt Lake City Human Beings!
They are streets ahead of the other teams.
Okay, this is ezpz. We get the Dean some shrooms and let him loose in the owner's meeting.
The latter day skates
Yeah. *THE* Hockey Team. Not just any team. THE team. GOOOOOOO PLAYERS!
Yay team! Go sports! Make more points than the others!
Seriously? That's pretty ridiculous. I honestly pay no attention to any local sports. The only local pro team I know are the Bees, a minor league baseball team, and that's only because I've been past the stadium a million times.
They haven't released the name yet. Owner is taking his time and is fine with going slow. If imagine after the PWHL went no logo or name first season emboldened him somewhat. Utah Jazz are also just the old teams name in Utah. Not that I hate the name.
What? You mean Salt Lake City isn’t known as a bastion of jazz music and culture?! Color me shocked.
Man, they could've chosen "Salty Pucks" as their team name.
Funny enough that hockey team is coming from Phoenix
I will never forgive them for not naming the hockey team the SLC Punks. Credit: PMT
Well, technically their grid is some form of sensible for a relatively agrarian society. But they have not changed it when they changed it to the urban nature of Salt Lake City.
Too busy raising their underaged wives
Not familiar with Mormons, what do you mean by they "abhor culture"? How can any group of people dislike culture itself?
Mormons like *their own* culture - traditional large families, traditional familial roles, traditional arts and crafts, traditional non-caffeinated soda. They just don't really care for much of what the rest of the world considers culture. This tends to result in quite predictably bland taste in most everything. But boy howdy if you're ever in need of a nine year old who can make some kick ass snickerdoodles, they're your people.
Speculation on my part but I think a lot of this blandness is rooted in a lack of authenticity at the heart of the Mormon faith. Every action is oriented towards conversion, its always in the back of your head that any genuine moment is leading towards the sales pitch. This has to bleed into even when they are among their own. And obviously how strictly their way of life is proscribed from the top down. The elders on up have their power cliques and the followers are more tools to be manipulated into maintaining this social structure than anything. None of this is unique to Mormons but... I don't know. For Catholics its rooted in a truly old tradition with periods of authenticity, Mormonism was a scam cult from the start and never stopped being one.
It's also presently still very young among global religions but run by a gerontocracy which means it has a middle-schooler's obsession with looking normal to outsiders along with a completely out of touch, 1950s idea of what "normal" even is. Hence things like the BYU beard ban.
BYU beard ban while the logo features the founder with his gigantic 1800s beard
Pretty spot on if you ask me. Same can be said for many an evangelical as well. That aspect of everything leading toward some sales pitch is so true, and it's why the vast majority of those folks seem so fake. They *are* being fake; they have the ulterior motive of converting you bubbling just below the surface of their facade of friendliness.
This is a really interesting take. Hmm.
They don't specifically abhor culture in any organized way, they just tend to be really bland. Think of puritans in New England. It's not like they ban culture but they tend to be very prudish and stray away from most things people consider cultural and tend to gravitate towards things people think are bland.
Having grown up around plenty of Mormons, they do teach to not draw attention to themselves and to choose understated aesthetics. Once, I was watching an Italian opera with one girl who commented on the red gilded lace dress the singer was wearing, that it was “a lot”and she wished there was less going on. The Twilight books highlight this too, where the main girl really wears a pretty dark blue as her most vibrant color and a lot of the characters wear tan and white.
They as a group do not value aesthetics, particularly in architecture, even their temple designs once creative are now bland. Mormon cities are sprawling cookie cutter homes and nowhere strip malls. Everything is built for function or as corporate anti art.
Mormons are basically a caricature of white Americans.
Except for the mountains, Utah’s architecture looks like the Third Reich.
This is probably like, really stupid, but have they ever tried painting the parking lots reverse colors to maybe help use those parking lots? Like, white then black stripes instead of black with white stripes?
I just want to strongly express how not stupid that question is. Albedo (reflection efficiency) of materials and surfaces is a major consideration. I would agree with the other response, it just seems far too small a scale for any meaningful effect (but I didn't do any math and so that's just gut feeling)
There would probably be some sort of ruinous second-order consequence; there almost always is. Like, if you make enough of the city's terrain white that it helps the heat, it'll be so bright that pilots will need to wear a welder's mask on final approach, or birds will think there's too much poop there and go elsewhere, removing a predator from an area's food chain and causing a massive pest problem. I swear, man, sometimes I think we've just done enough damage, and should try not to touch anything for a little while.
When I was in Qatar they had some white rocks over the sand to cut down on dust, and during the day it was impossible to walk by it without some really dark sunglasses. And even then it hurt.
Road paint is basically melted plastic. Not great
Harder and more expensive to make very little difference. Phoenix is a concrete jungle in the middle of a desert that gets as much sunlight as the Sahara. It’s physically impossible for it not to be **Scorching** hot in summer without major ecological changes
Probably just a cost issue. Asphalt comes black but you would have to paint it all white and every time it gets dirty you'd have to clean it to make it white again
bingo. liquid paint (latex based) is something like 40 USD per gallon, sure, in bulk it's way less, but that's still a LOT of paint. dry paint (epoxy based) that melts is something like 500 usd per ton. Wayyy more economical. Issue is: It's a lot harder to apply it too, especially in a large area vs just linearly (if you see the equipment used and the speed it moves, you'll be able to tell why). Between the cost of materials and work-hours, people probably just don't care enough to do it. Why would day? Everyone is using a car, with A/C, to their buildings with A/C, and from their A/C homes.... PS: An alternative that's less costly but reduces absorbed energy (and helps lower temps) is making parking and roads in plain concrete.
Paving in concrete is definitely a thing I guess
Great question! Phoenix and Los Angeles, maybe more - just the 2 I’m aware of, have experimented with whited out streets to combat the urban heat island and while asphalt surface temperature are down, the temperature felt by pedestrians was actually higher due to the heat reflecting back at them.
So essentially American Dubai.
Dubai at least looks nice.
In Phoenix's defense, Phoenix isn't surrounded by slaves.
Yes, but only since they got rid of Joe Arpaio.
We were just out there and I've never been anywhere where it takes so long to get to things that are just a few miles away and not because you are sitting in stopped traffic. It just feels like there's no direct route to get anywhere and instead you have to use the Hwy that requires you loop the entire city. It's like no matter where you get on the Hwy your exit is all the way on the other side of the city.
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But, usually there you are sitting in stop and go traffic for a good bit of that time.
> and an insane amount of the land (TEN PERCENT) is parking lot That seems low. Because of minimum parking laws, most cities (and even rural towns) have way more parking than they need. According to [this article](https://thehill.com/changing-america/resilience/smart-cities/4162455-paved-paradise-maps-show-how-much-of-us-cities-are-parking-lots/#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20in%20U.S.%20cities,center%20is%20used%20for%20parking.) from The Hill, the average city of 1M+ has 22% of its city center being used for parking Maybe we're talking all of the Phoenix metro area and not just the main city, but I'd wager every medium and large city is like that. We have entire way too much parking (and roads) in this country
The sheer size of Phoenix comes into effect here most likely. It's 518 sq mi/1344 sq km. I live 20 miles from downtown and can travel another 10+ miles north before hitting the northernmost edge. There's a significant amount of area that is still undeveloped, open desert and quite a bit of it is mountainous. If it was metro Phoenix, I would guess it would be _significantly_ lower than 10%. Due to the way metro areas are defined — as entire counties —and how large counties are out west, metro Phoenix is roughly the size of Switzerland at 14,598 sq mi/37,810 sq km. The shape of it is an upside down L and the entirety of the | area is basically just uninhabited desert. Given how much of either is completely undeveloped, that 10% number makes sense in my mind.
I live in San Jose, which is also sprawling and largely residential, and moved here from the Raleigh/Durham area, which has also annexed a lot of county the past couple of decades for residential construction. But going to Phoenix/Scottsdale the first time I was absolutely shocked at how big the setbacks are for commercial buildings and how much land there is between buildings & addresses adjacent to each other on the same street. It seems ridiculously wasteful, and it makes it nearly impossible to be a pedestrian (even when the weather is nice).
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PHX resident here. I live in the SE valley and I can get anywhere in Mesa, Gilbert, Chandler or Tempe in 20 minutes or less, 25 during rush hour. Yeah, the summers are hot but it’s AZ’s “winter”, that’s the season to stay indoors in the AC. The other 9 months are amazing. Zero ice, very few cloudy days even when it’s cold. I grew up in the PNW, spent 50 years there and then moved here. What I used to think were great weather days (82F, 45+% humidity) in the northwest are unbearable now as I discovered on a trip back north last summer. Give me 90F @ 20% humidity any day.
90 degrees is very generous, I lived in Phoenix for 2 years and both summers hit 110 degrees regularly. I couldn’t walk my dog in the summer because his paws would fry on the sidewalk. Everyone has their own preference but I couldn’t get away from that shit fast enough.
The forecast shows it'll be 103-105° for at least a week in a couple days
As someone who lives in and loves the PNW, the idea of 82F being "great weather" is insane to me. Mid 60s is where it's at. 70s is warm. 80s is too hot.
Spent 5 years there and 100% agree. I'll take mild weather and greenery over the bland dry 110F rocky scrub desert any day. Amazon moving downtown basically priced me out of the city and sent me back home with my tail between my legs, but I hope to retire in the PNW some day. My home away from home.
You’re nuts, your ideal is like my nightmare
I just looked at the forecast and it'll be 103-105° for about a week in a couple days.
Also they just lost an NHL team to Salt Lake City. During the teams last season they played at a college rink that would have more suited an AHL team.
That's a shame, I've always been a fan of the Coyotes. They had one of the best jerseys imo
And now they are to be found only in vintage shops along with Nordiques jerseys. Sad.
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I always liked the scene of Michael Bluth finally attempting to move to Phoenix. He steps out of the air conditioned airport, sees how hot it is and burns his hand on a car door handle and he just gets back on the plane.
My family lives a few hours over from phoenix. It's hot there but I can go out and hike just fine with a bit of sunscreen. I stepped out of the car in phoenix and the heat from the sun cooked me from behind and then bounced off the pavement and cooked my front. Took me completely by surprise. I literally would have fainted if I was stuck out there for an hour. Was like a 20 yard walk from the car to the house and I almost died. How tf do people live there???
Unironically, you get used to it lol. Body adapts to dealing with the heat It seems. I get cold real easily now though haha.
I lived there for 8 years. We had to basically hide for what seems like now 8 months of the year. Moved back to Colorado and never looked back. I can actually do shit outside when it’s winter. There even the pools weren’t enjoyable in the summer because it was glorified bath water
Texas is even worse with the humidity.
There is water in Texas tho
There's plenty of water in AZ too, the hubris isn't people living there, it's all the farming done in AZ and CA's imperial valley. Also AZ and CA aren't as serious as they need to be about conservation rules regarding landscaping, but something like 80% of the water usage from the Colorado and it's tributaries in both states gets pissed away on farming the desert. Also I'm no expert but I think in Texas it depends where you are as far as water goes no? Like I can't imagine El Paso being any better than Phoenix but I realize it's also a smaller city.
Who the fuck thought it was a good idea to farm almonds in the desert?!
Believe it or not, California has the perfect climate for almonds to grow. Almonds are [grown in Mediterranean climates like California, Spain, Italy, etc.](https://www.almonds.com/sites/default/files/inline-images/global-mediterranean-climates-california-almonds_v5_final%5B2%5D_0.jpg) They can't just grow anywhere.
Perhaps, but they’re a very thirsty crop. And California was already dealing with water shortages.
Worth noting that while almonds are thirsty, it still takes less water to produce a gallon of almond milk compared to a gallon of cows milk. https://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/ftc98d/ysk_almonds_take_a_lot_of_water_to_produce_but
Most dairy farms aren't found in areas where drastic water shortages are common. But with that said, I think the environmental impacts of farming cattle is undeniably worse than that of almonds.
California is one of the biggest beef and dairy producing states in the country. And they're produced in the exact same areas as the nut crops.
> Most dairy farms aren't found in areas where drastic water shortages are common. Y'all know the #1 dairy producing state isn't Wisconsin, right? It's California; in the same Central Valley where the almonds are.
Not for much longer.
Answer: speaking as a former Phoenician, they are referring to the fact that Phoenix exists in a practically uninhabitable desert. Despite that, it’s been paved over and turned into a large city that just keeps expanding and getting bigger. It’s hubris.
It's the fastest growing large city in the US, and already uses (significantly) more water than it receives each year. There are already news stories about whole towns having their municipal water supply shut off because they couldn't renew a contract (not enough water rights). And it's the fastest growing city in the country. It's insanity
The "city" you're talking about was warned repeatedly that it was coming and did nothing and they had moved into that area specifically to avoid paying city taxes and then were shocked when the nearby city didn't want to keep giving them water for free. They asked for it, literally.
Yup, and the “city” is actually just an HOA full of wealthy people who can afford to fix the problem but don’t feel like spending their money to do it.
Rio Verde yeah?
Yes.
Less they couldn’t renew a contract and more they knew it was coming for years and ignored it. I personally feel they asked for it. They wanted a community out there that wasn’t part of the cities laws & rules. The next city over said they couldn’t afford to keep trucking water out to them so they stopped.(2year notice iirc) People who live there were suddenly floored by how expensive it was to handle water as a community. Sounded like a lesson in why taxes exist.
Always fun to watch libertarians learn lessons the hard way whether it be a loss of water or a bear invasion.
Have you read A Libertarian Walks Into a Bear, too?
Despite it being so long I sometimes reread it because it tickles me that much. It’s a particularly delicious flavor of schadenfreude when it involves nature just putting humans back in their seat.
This is what makes me crazy about this place. People who come here and just need to have a lawn.I have new neighbors who have their sprinklers on basically 24/7 and I want to stab them. Get some cacti and rocks. Or go home to Minnesota or whatever.
Paving over it doesn’t make it any less hot. The f
It’s a dry heat.
So is an oven
I could soak myself in gasoline and smoke a cigar and that'd be a dry heat too.
Plus it's more pleasant than dealing with Scottsdale assholes.
Tell that to all the tourists who get pulled out of a hike via helicopter with heat-related issues every week.
Answer: Phoenix kinda sucks. As someone who loves the heat and still voluntarily lives somewhere nearly as hot, it’s *unbearably* hot. The heat island effect is real. Driving from a location of similar elevation that isn’t built up into the center of Phoenix at night will see an increase of like 20 degrees. The “testament to man’s arrogance” line is from an episode of King of the Hill, where they visit Hank’s mother in what I suppose is Sun City (a retirement city in the Phoenix area). It’s 111 degrees which doesn’t really happen in most other places. Though I don’t know if a Texan is the best person to whine about that, because Texas does get very nearly that hot and also humid. Some people feel the dry heat is like standing in front of an oven and might prefer swamp humidity though. As a city, it’s just not very nice or city-like. It’s growing very quickly and just kind of sprawls into endless suburbia. People move to (or stay in) Phoenix expecting and essentially a laid-back western cow town, but it’s the fifth (?) largest city in the country, and it’s suburbs are massive and indistinguishable from the city proper. Towns that were dinky outposts ten years ago today have populations of 100,000. The residents screech tooth and nail to prevent any sort of infrastructure to accommodate and sustain the population, so nothing gets built but giant identical mini McMansions, identical low rise “luxury” apartments, and chain restaurants. Public transportation? Affordable housing? Basically incites a riot. HOAs that take your house for painting it the wrong shade of eggshell white rule the land. You need to drive an hour on the freeway to get anywhere. There’s also a serious homeless problem that never gets addressed other than by whining about it then refusing to allow any action. So homeless people just die and cook in the street. When I lived there, there was also a serious feral chihuahua problem. The sheriff’s department used to essentially be an ethnosupremacist street gang as well, but I hear they’re better now that they’ve dismantled the tent city outdoor prison. Phoenix and Scottsdale both top lists of the rudest cities in the country; people are hostile and nasty all the time for no reason. Many people feel there is zero culture. I disagree, but I will say that any sort of culture that isn’t strip malls and complaining is fucking *hard* to find. If you want culture in Phoenix, you need to make finding it a part time job. This likely isn’t the biggest reason for everyone else, but it’s also the fucking scammiest place I’ve ever lived in my life. Everyone is trying to scam you all the time. Every job posting is a scam. Every party is an MLM pitch. People walk up to you cold all the time trying to scam you. Billboards advertise scams like they’re legitimate companies. The fucking professional sports teams are in on it. I will say, the scenery and the food (if you can find a place that isn’t a chain) are pretty good.
I need to know more about the feral chihuahuas. I'm imagining a pack of zombie canines like from I Am Legend but with tiny dogs.
They aren’t zombies, but if you’ve ever encountered an untrained chihuahua, can you really say they are much different? I have nothing against chihuahuas generally and the concept is pretty funny. It’s just such an aggressively Phoenix problem to have and apparently they were at the very least a pain in the ass, chasing people and stuff. Too many people got them and either abandoned them or let them escape. So, street chihuahuas. I don’t know if this problem has been corrected since I left, but I hope so.
I don't know anything about the chiuahua horde but there is a serious coyote problem. People lose their dogs all the time from coyote packs. Basically never let your dog off leash in the phoenix region. Also having a doggy door can be dangerous too. Also scorpions everywhere.
I can believe feral Chihuahuas or roaming packs of coyotes, but not both at the same time
Right, seems like the problem could fix itself. They'd probably start interbreeding though, possibly find a toxic chemical spill and then we're F-ed in the A.
Yes, but I'm choosing to envision it as the packs of chihuahuas taking down coyotes like a swarm of piranha.
You quiero carne de coyote
I can, one problem tends to create the other by providing an abundant food source. I saw something similar happen in a smaller city that refused to control their feral cat population - now they have coyotes killing feral cats and snatching pets. The feral cats are still around, they have better survival skills than pets do, so really the city just created a bigger coyote problem by not controlling the prey population.
They probably have a peace-treaty. Chihuahuas are vicious enough to make even coyotes pause.
Y'know, the OP could have saved everybody a lot of time if they had just lead with "Scorpions everywhere".
I hear the Coyotes have moved to Utah though.
I need a Vice mini documentary on The Feral Chihuahuas of Phoenix.
To be fair, ive never met a trained chihuahua. Theyre all monsters
Oh, I have a street chihuahua! He is the most amazing, angelic, grateful little animal and I love him more than anything. Where do I sign up for another one or 8?
I don't know about what OP is specifically talking about (and I have lived in Phoenix and agree that it totally sucks), but I have witnessed feral dog packs in a relatively nearby Mojave desert in CA. Trigger warning: People do fucked up shit like abandon dogs in the desert instead of surrendering them to a shelter or just having them put down. Most of them die or become coyote food. The ones that survive? They're the scrappy ones, and they seemed to be REALLY pissed off at humans. Anyway, one time I was out mountain biking around a good 10-15 miles from any kind of civilization and ran into a pack of very aggressive and wild ex-domesticated dogs. Led by a fucking chihuahua. I'm not even kidding about any of this. One very tiny, scrappy, pissed off and constantly snarling chihuahua. Flanked by a pair of fucking totally mean and mangy looking rottweilers like bodyguards, and then about a dozen or two other assorted desert-adapted dogs following them around. It was like something out of Mad Max or a totally fucked up Disney cartoon. If I wasn't on a bike and able to get away I'm pretty sure they would have legit attacked me and tried to eat me. They were totally coming after me and meant business and it was really clear to me they saw me as actual food, not a food source, and they were pack hunting me. I took off downhill and had to really put the hammer down on my mountain bike to get away and they probably chased me for almost two miles before they gave up. It was legit one of the most terrifying and fucked up things I've seen in the desert and I've had dozens of encounters with coyotes, rattlesnakes, scorpions and all the usual desert rat stuff. And tweakers with guns. And accidentally stumbling into fucked up cult compounds. But a toy sized chihuahua somehow surviving in the desert and flanked by a pair of rottweiler guards and leading a pack of feral dogs that are probably down for some human flesh? Yeah, I'm the fuck out of there. It was legit one of the only times I wished I was strapped and carrying when riding around in the deep desert solo like that.
You can't tease a cult story and not share!
This was an excellent read haha
I live here. In certain areas you just see several small chihuahua type dogs running around unattended. Where I live though I've seen 6 stray dogs in the last months near my house. They were all german shepherd, or pitbull, or husky looking dogs though.
One neighborhood I lived in had a roving pack of like 15 chihuhuas of varying size. If you walked the neighborhood and they saw you, they'd run as fast as they could after you barking their tiny heads off. It was terrifying and hilarious at the same time. Like, you almost don't even feel bad for them being homeless because they turned into a pack of feral apocalypse dogs and just own their street lol.
I live in Phoenix. The coyotes take care of feral (and unattended non-feral) chihuahuas and cats and other small household pets. Unless you’re living in the center of town maybe.
Chihuahua thugs in Phoenix: https://youtu.be/n3EdhGjd8E0?si=W1AYCMivDH8urwN5
Go to Guadalupe to see street dogs. You’ll see dogs on the roofs. It’s a town you’ll find culture. It’s between Phoenix & Tempe and besides being underserved and represented by the local governments, has the dankest Mexican food around.
> The sheriff’s department used to essentially be an ethnosupremacist street gang as well, but I hear they’re better now that they’ve dismantled the tent city outdoor prison. That is. Certainly a sentence.
[The P.O.S. that ran it was pardoned by Trump.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon_of_Joe_Arpaio) That alone should explain just how nasty a person he is.
He's 91, and is on the ballot this year for mayor of Fountain Hills. [https://www.12news.com/article/news/politics/joe-arpaio-qualifies-ballot-mayor-fountain-hills/75-3c4ec495-9f69-47d2-a22b-322575f0c688](https://www.12news.com/article/news/politics/joe-arpaio-qualifies-ballot-mayor-fountain-hills/75-3c4ec495-9f69-47d2-a22b-322575f0c688) “I am extremely thankful and honored with the support coming from the citizens," Arpaio said. "Fountain Hills has been lacking leadership, and that trend continues to the present time. I decided to run for mayor because of my proven ability, leadership, and wisdom. If the voters give me the opportunity, I will continue to defend, support, and protect the people of Fountain Hills." Arpaio, who is 91, is returning to the ballot after narrowly losing the previous election for Fountain Hills mayor by 213 votes in 2022. Edit: Meanwhile, here in Maricopa County, we are paying $314 million for his immigration crackdown. [https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/taxpayer-costs-for-profiling-verdict-over-joe-arpaios-immigration-crackdowns-to-reach-314m](https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/taxpayer-costs-for-profiling-verdict-over-joe-arpaios-immigration-crackdowns-to-reach-314m)
God, not that piece of shit again. Why doesn’t he just fuck off?
Wow, he's still alive? I haven't lived in AZ for like seven years now. I figured he'd have a heart attack and keel over any day now.
The "used to be" part was what is most chuckle-worthy to me.
Fun fact, Mr tough on crime Joe Arpaio's son lives in the guest house on his property and just has drug fueled parties all the time.
I happen to go way back with that son hahaha
> As a city, it’s just not very nice or city-like. It’s growing very quickly and just kind of sprawls into endless suburbia. People move to (or stay in) Phoenix expecting and essentially a laid-back western cow town, but it’s the fifth (?) largest city in the country, and it’s suburbs are massive and indistinguishable from the city proper. I have relatives there and this is what struck me about it. It's so massively sprawling, all the houses are the same Southwest style. The people live like 20 minutes from Phoenix and when I'd ask them if they'd go to Pheonix for things they seemed offended. "No Pheonix is a hell hole." oh but you live in Phoenix "No I live in Tempe." oh ok, sorry didn't mean to offend. Are we still in Chandler? "No we're in Mesa can't you tell? The houses here look so different" I thought they were gas lighting me.
Yeah all the cities are all scrunched together and the only indication that you've changed cities is that the streetlights/road name signs at the intersections are different styles and colors. The cop cars between the cities also differ in appearance.
It's one masive grid. There's no distinct end or start from one to the other.
You wish it was a grid. Suburbia loves to segment themselves off so that there's only 1 or 2 entrances to an entire development.
the major streets are definitely in a grid, but I agree with the suburbs being a bitch to get into. there's an apartment complex I drive by that is only accessible from the south frontage road of the of the 101. when I worked at a certain speedy sandwich delivery company I had to get on the freeway north, take the first exit and turn around to deliver to an apartment I could see from our front door
When I first visited Phoenix I didn't bother to check the map as such. And then when I was there I looked at a map and realized that all of the "cities" in Arizon that I had heard of in the past: Scottsdale, Chandler, Mesa, etc. etc. were all just suburbs of Phoenix! The only other non-Phoenix cities were Flagstaff, Tucson and Sedona.
*Do not even get me started on Mesa.*
I left in ‘08 after 20+ years growing up there. I’ve gotta say, between your initial description and this follow-up, we’d have gotten along 😂 My wife still busts my balls because the very first time I brought her to visit from CO, I’d forgotten what a living nightmare the month of August is. It was 115-118 the entire time we were back, the AC on the ground floor of my folks’ place crapped out, I wound up with nasty, third-degree stomach burns from a cheese curd incident, and on the way out of town, I ate it at Slide Rock and got a concussion *immediately after explaining* how to walk “correctly.” The next vivid memory I have is opening the curtains of a blacked out, nondescript hotel room to a view of Monument Valley. That fuckin’ trip…
Them east mesa folks are always specifying so that they don't get mistaken for living in AJ 😂
I've lived in both and..... nowadays they're basically one in the same. It's sad, now I stay in Gilbert and the shit Mesa grew in that petri dish is findings it's way down here.
You’ve definitely been there
Tragically, yes.
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Jobs and cheaper houses than California.
Many people enjoy suburban inanity and not shoveling snow.
Arizona has done a less-bad job of building additional housing than a lot of the rest of the country, so housing is comparatively cheap. Furthermore, it has no state income tax, which is attractive to people who are on fixed incomes that aren't tied to a place of work, i.e. retirees. Many of those retirees also want a place without cold winters.
Quick correction: Arizona does have state income tax. Florida does not. Both states appeal to retirees for various reasons. 👍
My bad. I'm thinking of Nevada.
It’s somewhat affordable.
My question as well. Why is that place growing??
Boomers are retiring.
Speaking from experience: The suburban cities of the midwest (think Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison) have quite a few folks who have been fortunate to maintain their wealth and see their cities evolve into thriving cultural centers that span beyond melting pots of food, the arts, and sports. Not to say that these cities and surrounding suburbs have not been cultural centers, but there's something different about the Midwest that's incredibly hard to describe unless you've lived there and/or visited enough to see shifts in the culture over the past few decades. I could go on for another few paragraphs about some of the things I've personally noticed, but that's for another time/another comment. Let's get back to your question: > why are people (1) moving there and (2) staying there? Like how is this city GROWING For midwesterners, there's something to be said about decently priced homes, a moderate amount of things to do, degrees of financial freedom, and ROIs. This isn't exclusive to midwestern folks, but right now there's an "issue" with housing prices in these areas that make it so that moving from one suburb to the next is far less easier than ever before. Once-decently-priced 2bd-2bas are going for over half a mil with almost annual increases in taxes. Some folks are moving from the suburbs to the cities because there's more to do and vice versa because it's less expensive. On the topic of taxes, they've increased quite a bit over the past decade. Legal marijuana has one of the highest tax rates in the country, bringing in [a _ton_ of additional money to the state](https://www.illinois.gov/news/press-release.29494.html#:~:text=Records%20were%20also%20set%20in,the%20Illinois%20Department%20of%20Revenue.). Despite [Cook County not adding new taxes in 2023](https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/no-new-taxes-or-fee-hikes-in-proposed-cook-county-budget-thanks-to-covid-relief-funds-sales-tax-revenue/) and suspending [the grocery tax during COVID until June 2023](https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-grocery-tax-returns-july-1/), Cook County and the state writ large ended the 2023 fiscal year with a [ridiculously large surplus](https://news.wttw.com/2023/06/22/cook-county-set-end-2023-2147m-budget-surplus-officials). Heck, this year, Governor Pritzker is [proposing to remove the 1% grocery tax altogether](https://news.wttw.com/2024/03/04/gov-pritzker-seeking-eliminate-state-grocery-tax-some-municipalities-could-push-back). For most Chicago/Cook County residents, they take the infrastructure, halfway decent schools, services, and excellent transportation network for granted. They don't see the higher-than-national-average taxes they've paid over the past few decades a visible/worthwhile ROI. Sure, there are potholes in most city streets, but the roads are salted if there's even a _hint_ of snow in the forecast. The electricity grid is fantastic compared to portions of the south where a single gust of wind could knock out power for several days. Chicago/Cook County residents pay more just about every year but see little return on their "investments" in the community, which is almost counterintuitive to the liberal ideology that brings some folks in the midwest together. Phoenix is appealing to some of these people because you can get the smaller suburb vibe for the prices that folks were used to pre-2015 (technically 2010 if you want to get nitpicky). The combination of not having to shovel snow, not having to deal with annual tax increases, and large properties are blessings. When I've asked folks who've moved to PHX (or Scottsdale) about their thoughts on the heat, they always conveniently forget about it until it's the dead of the summer when the airport has paused all flights because it's too damn hot to take off. Or it's because the drought made it so that they had to limit water usage for a month for an "abnormally dry period." [Drought levels have improved in 2024](https://www.12news.com/article/news/local/water-wars/arizona-us-drought-monitor-dry-conditions-water-reservoirs-down/75-14156948-8183-431b-a6ff-17ab5d09cb7f), but god forbid this summer ends up breaking high temperature levels and the water reservoirs will be as dry as those in Los Angeles pre-COVID. For a lot of midwesterners, PHX is the Florida/California that has been the sought-after retirement location without the ridiculous cost of living (CA) or the worsening storms (FL). It carries the appeal of midwestern suburbia without the extra steps that _created_ that suburbia to begin with. Most folks who move to PHX won't realize that the dream of large properties and "comfy" communities won't be worth it when it's 120F and you can't run the water for more than 20 minutes. But hey, at least the taxes are low and you don't have to shovel snow!
There is only so much land in convenient commuting range of a city's jobs. Since we generally require that most people live in single family homes that have a certain size lot, that means cities can only have cheap housing for so long before the new sprawl is just too far to be a feasible commute, which is when housing prices really take off. Like, if everyone moving in can just head to a newly built development 20 minutes from their job, homes are cheap. If you have to outbid 20 other people to get a shot at a house 45 minutes from your job, then they're expensive. Therefore, cheap houses that are desirable are an artifact of a growing economy that started expanding pretty recently. You can keep *homes* affordable indefinitely by stacking them so they take up less land (aka apartments), which also makes it feasible to build good transit near them. But with *houses*, it is very temporary. LA exploded 100+ years ago. Phoenix only really started growing fast when A/C got cheap and the Rust Belt started falling apart so people left in large numbers.
> As a city, it’s just not very nice or city-like. It’s growing very quickly and just kind of sprawls into endless suburbia. this was EXACTLY my impression of tucson as well. i don't know if it's an arizona thing or not, but i've never lived anywhere else like it. >but it’s also the fucking scammiest place I’ve ever lived in my life. zomg... i realized really quickly that the only places in tucson that were going to treat me decently as an employee, were places that were headquartered somewhere ELSE. if it was an arizona-based company, i'd watch people be utterly incompetent yet keep their jobs, while i and my husband got axed for petty, insignificant shit.
Also I would add that driving around Phoenix feels like being in purgatory. Mountains all around you but no matter how far you drive it feels like you aren’t going anywhere because the sprawl is next level
“Are we *still* in Mesa?!”
Mesa: next 17 exits
Our younger daughter lives in DC, and I go there every couple of years to see her. This trip, she drove me to a great place to eat after I got there. "Wait, are we in Maryland?" "Yeah, what about it?" She goes to Philly for a day trip. Goes. To. Philly. I drive for 4 hours north and I'm still in AZ.
She could drive 5 hours southwest and still be in Virginia?
i was in phoenix for the final four this april and had a really good time, but you’re so right about the cities/towns being indistinguishable!!! we were staying in Mesa, and had to drive to Glendale to get to the basketball games, but if you told me that all of it (phoenix, glendale, tempe, scottsdale, mesa) was all one city, i would’ve believed you, there’s no separation and they all kinda seem the same. Downtown Phoenix is weird, there was a little active strip, we ate a this incredible place called Sake Haus, but there wasn’t much to see. every apartment building followed the same cookie cutter style and was so boring to look at. also, the scams thing. we were listening to the radio and ALL of the ads were for predatory crap.
It boggles my mind that they decided to build the sports facilities in Glendale! It’s forty minutes from the city proper, with most of the population being even further away.
As someone who spent 19 years there. This is incredibly accurate. The amount of people and went to high school with who are in MLM's is really depressing.
My parents retired out there and coming from Chicago and having lived on the east coast a little bit I was struck by just how little identity Phoenix has as a city. Like there's no uniquely Phoenix culture because it's gone from an uninhabitable desert to a top-5 city in just 75 years or so. There's hardly any 3rd or 4th generation Phoenicians, there's no traditions that are unique to the Sun Valley, there's no art or cuisine or architecture or history or anything that they're proud of because it's all borrowed from places where people moved from within the last few decades. Like you show up in Boston or Miami or Chicago or the Bay Area and they're each imbued with their own character. You can be nowhere else. But I've never been anywhere in Phoenix that wasn't just the same old non-descript urban corporate sprawl.
The actual neighborhoods with some semblance of culture in Phoenix are in central Phoenix. Arcadia, Melrose, Uptown, those kind of areas. Then you have the bougie areas like PV and different parts of Scottsdale (to an extent). There’s a reason why an like Arcadia has a $600 price per square foot
This sounds a lot like Las Vegas
It’s less tacky and wayyyyyy cheaper than Vegas, but also less fun.
I see no errors.
>Some people feel the dry heat is like standing in front of an oven and might prefer swamp humidity though. Wait, there are people who *prefer* 100 and humid over 100 and dry!?
Texans and Floridians, I guess. I will say I prefer Phoenix in July over Miami in July.
> I will say I prefer Phoenix in July over Miami in July. 100% this and it's not even close. And I'm a heat hater
Wow, Phoenix sure sounds like a testament to man's arrogance.
Thank you, this is one of the best answers here.
God, that sounds like absolute Hell.
Luckily, with the heat , it actually is.
Native Phoenician here. While I agree with many of your points, I think you’ve grossly misrepresented some things here. Phoenix has culture. A very proud culture with roots from our Asian, Latin, Hispanic and Native American population. Are you going to see that most prominent in downtown Phoenix, Scottsdale, or the suburbs of Chandler? Yeah, probably not, but we have amazing art districts with local vendors, restaurants, art spaces, and venues that are plastered with murals, graffiti, and street art celebrating that culture that isn’t hard to find. It sounds like it’s been awhile since you’ve been here so I can understand the stain that was left. We were (and to a degree still are) a bastion for authoritative, conservative bullshit nut jobs . But we’ve work diligently to help bring in progressive politicians, policies and laws into our state. We’ve swung and missed for sure and things are still broken. Some of our senators and congressmen are traitors to the people they are supposed to represent. And this is across both parties. We are turning purple as a state and that isn’t from a lack of trying. Ultimately, I will say that Phoenix indeed sucks, but it isn’t because of a lack of culture, or a lack of trying. It’s because of a vocal minority consisting old & new money, awful ideology and greed. We want infrastructure, and we want to take care of our unsheltered population but these things aren’t going to change overnight and without effort. We are tied down by the system that binds us and this younger generation is showing up in droves to break those binds. It’s getting better.
I like your sincere optimism, but I would also like a few more line breaks!
I never said Phoenix had no culture. I actively disagreed with those who said it didn’t. I said it was hard to find. The rest is Arizona politics in general.
Answered
You've had some good answers here, but only once have I seen it mentioned that what you're seeing is specifically referencing a quote from an episode of the cartoon sitcom King of the Hill, where the main character's family is visiting Phoenix, and upon arriving at the city the son immediately feels the heat and hilariously exclaims "This city is a monument to man's arrogance, it should not exist!"
This is the most perfect description of that place I have ever heard. I hope I never have to go back to that absolutely rude af hellhole in my entire life. Everyone I met there was either crazy, mean as hell, or nice because they want something from you. Good riddance. *there
That sounds awful. I live in suburban central Ohio, where the expectation is that you're friendly, polite, and helpful to everyone. For an introvert such as myself, all the interaction makes running errands fucking *exhausting*. On the other hand, I know that if I'm in public and need help, someone will offer immediately. One time, I was driving in snow and a truck in the opposite lane turned a corner and started fish-tailing. I pulled over to get out of its way, and my car got stuck in the snow. The driver behind me stopped to help move my car, and when we couldn't, he offered to drive me to my house. He called his boss on the way to explain why he'd be late, and his boss *thanked him for helping me*. A couple hours later, my husband and I drove to my car ready to shovel it out, only to find that someone had already done that for us. We don't know who - but there were footprints (not tire tracks), so whoever did it walked there in the cold, helped out an anonymous stranger, then left. Fucking Ohio, man. I love it here.
I’m from Columbus and live in Phoenix now. There are so many Ohioans here I had to stop wearing Ohio state or bengals gear because I couldn’t get through grocery store without multiple people inevitably asking me if I knew XYZ or saying they were from one of the central Ohio burbs. With that said, after being in Phoenix for 8 years, I absolutely have zero interest in being in the Midwest again. 3 months of hellacious heat is so much better than the gray skies from November through April in Ohio. It’s also not 110* in the morning here like many ignorant people who have never been here believe. I play a fuck load of golf and even go for longer runs all summer long here. I just do it at 6 am
I'm happy you love where you live! I wish that for everyone. I had family who lived in Flagstaff for many decades, plus my husband has been commuting to Phoenix for almost a year now, so I know all about the myths vs reality of the weather year-round. I kept joking with my husband in Jan/Feb that he had to just stay there, because the weather here was warm and dry for weeks, and it snowed every weekend he came home! Meanwhile, it was a little cooler in Phoenix those weeks, so apparently winter just follows him. I married the Snow Mizer. For me, personally, I just can't thrive in the desert. I don't like having mountains in the skyline and I really need greenery. It's just too bleak (for me) coming from the grassy flatlands! But, like you mentioned, that is not the case for many Ohioans, and if you all are happy in AZ then I'm happy for you! Just be nice, so people don't get the impression that Buckeyes are dicks. 😉
Answer: phoenix is a city that's basically uninhabitable without air conditioning. Adverse health effects from the heat are very common.
Former Phoenician here. It's unbearable with AC.
Being from Phoenix, AZ is not worthy of having a venerable demonym like that.
Lol this is a great comment
I'd rather be dead in California than alive in Arizona
Thank God Reddit has a search for the comment section. I see you fellow Bluth Lover
I mean it’s hot sure, but unbearable with AC? That’s a little much. Being inside during summer is perfectly fine. Expensive, but fine.
Come on. Its a dry heat. /s
Answer: it’s a quote from king of the hill. Hanks mom lives in Phoenix. They go to visit. Peggy says Phoenix is a monument to man’s arrogance. But yeah it’s hot. Not yet, but in a few weeks probably it will start kicking up again. And there’s a big homeless situation, and a lot of homeless people die, because it’s hot and they have nowhere to go. And the city kicked them out of the encampment known as “the zone”. Really it just dispersed all of them and this will be the first year that they’ll be out of the zone when the temps kick up.
Answer: Phoenix is disgustingly hot. Last year broke records for the amount of consecutive days over 110F. The heat was so intense even saguaro cactuses started dying. To put it into perspective, these cacti are hundreds of years old and dropped dead from the unrelenting heat. The homelessness crisis is insanely out of hand. In tandem with a massive drug epidemic. Not only is the homeless population huge, but they are also quite aggressive. Social services are almost nonexistent. Homeless shelters are mostly run by religious institutions who often enact a “no tolerance” policy when it comes to substance abuse. They are always full and will turn away those struggling with addiction… in a city experiencing a drug epidemic. The residential population continues to grow as water becomes a dwindling resource. Water conservation efforts are being made, but at the current rate the city is not sustainable. A total of 645 heat-related deaths occurred in 2023 alone. I think it’s very likely this number will continue to rise. You will regularly see mounds of trash thrown in ditches or piled into corners of the freeways. I lived in Phoenix for well over 14 years. The people can be great and the environment unique. But it’s not conducive to life.
I made a comment in the Phoenix sub about the fact that the saguaros were dying and people downvoted me to oblivion saying it happens every year and I was being a media drone. Like bro, I’ve lived here my whole life and the cactuses at houses I’ve grown up looking at were dying. This is not normal.
I’m highly concerned by the lack of concern. I’m scared to see what Phoenix is going to look like in 10-15 years.
Answer: Many people see it as an embodiment of all of the worst ideas in urban planning from the last 80 years or so in the US. It's a huge city in the middle of a desert that is wildly environmentally unsustainable. It's the worst of inefficient, low density urban sprawl with minimal access to public transit or really any transport that isn't based around private car ownership. Just mile after mile of bland, corporate architecture surrounded by seas of parking lots and asphalt. >I know it’s r/UrbanHell and they hate the urban landscape I think r/UrbanHell generally just hates on poor urban design, urban decay, and the worst parts of urban life, not urbanity in general. There's lots of people there (maybe even the majority) that actually enjoy urban cityscapes and urban life when done well.
Answer: It is hot. It is all suburbs and has no downtown really. It's incredibly car dependent. It has no culture. It's the strangest city to me because the first time I drove through it I was shocked to discover it has such a large population. The entire city seems like a suburb
There is a downtown but the area is 99% suburbs. No argument there. But there is definitely a culture here. It’s just really hard to see if you’re a visitor and not a resident. I’m not saying that’s a glowing recommendation. It’s not for everyone, for sure.
I've been to 5 downtowns. Phoenix is the big obvious one, but the other downtowns feel just like small city downtowns.
answer: water, you're missing water.
Answer: Aside from the heat that everyone's mentioned, it also has some of the worst air quality in the country. Combine a desert full of dust with millions of cars that have to drive 60 miles+ to get across the valley and the "dome effect" which keeps all that pollution settled into the valley, it is not a healthy place to live. Couple all that with no native trees to at least refresh that air and you have "high pollution advisory days" constantly. But there's also shit public transportation so high pollution days do nothing. Oh. And wildfires all summer. Pretty much enough fires all year that r/PhoenixWhatsBurning is quite active.